tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-58961010859851647892024-03-18T02:48:31.303-07:00Tea in the ancient worldJohn Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.comBlogger860125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-37608302051905931782024-03-11T22:33:00.000-07:002024-03-11T22:33:05.121-07:00Four-day fasting update; cooking while fasting, home-made Gatorade<p><br /></p><p>I posted about a recent planned 5 day fast in a Reddit fasting sub, cut short to 4 days, which I'll also share here as an update. The part about making a variation of Gatorade to make the electrolytes more pleasant (sodium and potassium salts) was interesting to me.</p><p><br /></p><p>It's not a new theme, trying out tisane blends during fasting, but this worked better than earlier attempts. I used lime from the garden, about a quarter of a normal size lime worth, since they were tiny, and stevia for sweetness, along with a bit of jasmine green tea. Then I mixed some of the nasty salt water I've been drinking with that, and it was fine, actually delicious. I drank most of that salt water the normal way though, just working through it.</p><p><br /></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhWw0D1yAPorS9IJSDMaugzSnCslmHlSOfja39f7RWSesO1tZQZoALhddHkE3ZtintHlcuKuqftRyIqB6VubHE-B6BOx8FO2QxF9C7D1PeUV2oCoM5GSFBdL-6hUNvvhF1ZoKAGRzFEsG3Z12HeBEdqEZs6NGf9q70yqcRo6DK1z1qi6zL4z7WAryRs3cMx" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="1098" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhWw0D1yAPorS9IJSDMaugzSnCslmHlSOfja39f7RWSesO1tZQZoALhddHkE3ZtintHlcuKuqftRyIqB6VubHE-B6BOx8FO2QxF9C7D1PeUV2oCoM5GSFBdL-6hUNvvhF1ZoKAGRzFEsG3Z12HeBEdqEZs6NGf9q70yqcRo6DK1z1qi6zL4z7WAryRs3cMx=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>they're an unusual variation of a lime, maybe even a small type of orange</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p></p><p>The first and second days were easier than ever, with less experience of hunger than before. Really that was true of the 3rd through 5th fasts, just in a different sense. Energy level and productivity at work didn't seem disrupted at all (I started on a Thursday, so the crux would be over the weekend). On-site office work ran late on Friday, and I didn't get out until 7, and it was fine.</p><p><br /></p><p>There isn't much for approach or hacks to pass on. I drank electrolytes without monitoring amounts over the first two days, which is not ideal, just mixing some Less Salt and salt into water a few times a day, and taking magnesium capsules. It's better to figure out how much sodium, potassium, and magnesium intake works for you and mix up a daily drink mix, it's just easier to carry a bit of salt to work than the liquid. I had a calf cramp in the night after the second day; I was probably a little low on potassium, so I went back to a measured approach the next morning.</p><p><br /></p><p>For me the middle range of electrolytes seems to work out, based on the sodium and potassium recommendations <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/wiki/fasting_in_a_nutshell/you_need_electrolytes/">in that Reddit fasting sub reference</a>, just over 2 grams each, with sodium slightly higher. For magnesium taking a supplement pill in the morning and evening seems to work well, adding up to more than they recommend there, but not a crazy amount.</p><p>I only drank that one tisane the whole time, that one I thought of as a variation of Gatorade, but perhaps it wasn't that close. Some people would avoid anything but water and the salts, to really lean into the detox theme, but to me drinking some tisane / herb tea is fine, surely not all that impactful or toxic. It's a helpful way to be able to experience "eating" something, to settle your stomach, and it helps with reminding you to stay hydrated, versus drinking liters of plain water a day.</p><p><br /></p><p>For tea I drank shou pu'er in the morning on the first three days, a bit of green tea and tisanes at work the second day, and aged white tea, shou mei, on the last day. Not lots of any of those teas either; one Western brewing round's worth of shou I split over two days of brewing.</p><p>I can do light exercise while fasting, and walked about 3km / 1 1/2 miles as part of a commute on the second day. In general I limit jogging to 2 miles, nowhere near a routine run, but I was so busy with other things that I didn't run.</p><p><br /></p><p>I cooked during the fast; that was odd. On two different days too, making up food to bring to a set of cousins who are in poor health. I made chicken and dumpling soup, home-made meatballs and spaghetti, and lots of steamed vegetables. </p><p>I ended up going to a grocery store two days in a row, and a bakery on one of them; it's as well to not be around food that much, if it works out not to. I cooked so much that my mother-in-law and I can eat that for a few days too. Of course it increased my hunger level some, and I think my stomach producing more digestive fluids came with another odd side effect the next day, as something to expel. Fasting can be strange like that though, the odd extra body function here or there.</p><p><br /></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhmeerFLhgxFTS1mcgYxASLs7SJ3ktYX2nnwJ5-HIxwPKJt6uNrrul37ao1mctV3xi3WSTMIbp3cFzJrglq6VTm6RIjX8YSkO0au3LEKOuPBZ-PEoJY-EHQKdX84b8E_BfVGqsASrKIGY9MmvmnnDlQipnTqJkQMYUVClX-I-JQzue_7vPVqUxiwfA2DYyc" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="1098" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhmeerFLhgxFTS1mcgYxASLs7SJ3ktYX2nnwJ5-HIxwPKJt6uNrrul37ao1mctV3xi3WSTMIbp3cFzJrglq6VTm6RIjX8YSkO0au3LEKOuPBZ-PEoJY-EHQKdX84b8E_BfVGqsASrKIGY9MmvmnnDlQipnTqJkQMYUVClX-I-JQzue_7vPVqUxiwfA2DYyc=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></div><br /><br /><p></p><p>It went great. The main story line, to me, was being able to stay ridiculously busy and productive while not eating for four days, and feeling mostly normal while doing it.</p><p>Why even fast? I've covered all that in a half dozen earlier update posts. It's not to lose weight; I didn't weigh myself, and we don't have a scale at our house. There are lots of likely health benefits, especially related to reducing diabetes risk, eliminating fat content in internal organs, and between them, and offsetting cancer and other risks, through the process of autophagy, your body recycling and using inactive cells for an energy source. I'm not absolutely convinced it works as promoted, because accounts of all that seem to stop short of research findings about that process, but it probably is quite healthy for you.</p><p>It also works as a diet reset. My diet is pretty good, so there's only so much change to be made, but I think that's probably the main potential benefit for most people. You can easily recognize when eating habits only relate to triggers, or habitual patterns, and it stands out when genuine hunger cues drive the process instead. </p><p>You are hungry the whole time during a multi-day fast, to an extent, but it's a different form of hunger, more just feeling empty, and I'm talking more about relationship with foods and eating than just that one part. Fasting helps you reset approach to diet, and eating habits, in ways that are hard to describe. Or you can go right back to eating junk all the time, but it gives you that short window of opportunity to make a limited amount of changes.</p><p>I think fasting helps with my mental clarity, but that part can be vague, and people might seem to experience whatever they expect to. When people describe how pleasant fasting can be, experiencing unusual clarity and euphoria, I can't really relate to all that, but I think I am slightly clearer mentally as a result, afterwards and even during the fast.</p><p><br /></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgGnZemK065DTC7r9AROSFznKnjdZotQ88PbrRgOLw60JS9HkYFlpPx_kIitvINVa565CQXRKzzh1duYB89ixW6CHJwJO46dGw3BmBoXFytGpvnvaVWYF5ywaOxtKyk-GGwaia8z6iSRdemizJt6wIpFnt_B0NE0_hZvgiDkS9AN2vu6HCMv6IN70hObEza" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="1098" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgGnZemK065DTC7r9AROSFznKnjdZotQ88PbrRgOLw60JS9HkYFlpPx_kIitvINVa565CQXRKzzh1duYB89ixW6CHJwJO46dGw3BmBoXFytGpvnvaVWYF5ywaOxtKyk-GGwaia8z6iSRdemizJt6wIpFnt_B0NE0_hZvgiDkS9AN2vu6HCMv6IN70hObEza=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>back to my normal diet! jk; this place is new in Bangkok.</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><div><br /><br /></div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjLPRGu9WFvPx_7UIB5QHw2bFIDhrqZ2m3hrFeeyuxH65A50-yjUnXlDsnzyJbLOBcUThcc0R8w36bZ_6dv7MoSUTX7QhDq5zIF3yhrd5de-ZDME9BmDLyM5dSThR05NjY7q0yDfzx1upXMRAisgv7ya7WX78TaE_ZX8ls87BIcQMXRq4ULlIi8oBFc-KaS/s1086/IMG_20240311_234531.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="815" data-original-width="1086" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjLPRGu9WFvPx_7UIB5QHw2bFIDhrqZ2m3hrFeeyuxH65A50-yjUnXlDsnzyJbLOBcUThcc0R8w36bZ_6dv7MoSUTX7QhDq5zIF3yhrd5de-ZDME9BmDLyM5dSThR05NjY7q0yDfzx1upXMRAisgv7ya7WX78TaE_ZX8ls87BIcQMXRq4ULlIi8oBFc-KaS/w640-h480/IMG_20240311_234531.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the latest theme is travel; I'll get back to that</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-176501196764319082024-03-10T06:36:00.000-07:002024-03-10T08:05:46.001-07:00Lead exposure risk in tea<p> </p><p>This subject came up in a couple of different forms recently, so I looked it up, how much risk there is from lead exposure in tea. Of course I'm not representing this as developed and conclusive research; I read a half dozen references, and this passes on the most interesting content from that.</p><p>Two studies of Chinese tea (one pu'er, one general) and one of tea in Britain, which probably relates more to teas produced in India, Sri Lanka, and Kenya, were all really consistent. Lead exposure in tea might relate to an average of 2+ mg / kg of dry leaf, across all those categories. Is that a lot; is it safe? I'm still not completely sure, but all three said that's fine, just normal limited food exposure. </p><p>One study passed on findings related to what that works out to in brewed tea, just not in as complete a form as would be more informative. That said that half the brewed samples were below the threshold range, but didn't offer an average or distribution of the rest.</p><p>I'll mention the studies and references, summarize what I took them to mean, and cite a relevant selection that covers that. A more in-depth review would continue on to a closer read of a dozen or so good references; this type of fast review isn't very reliable. I only wanted to get an idea of general level of likely risk, and I think this gets you that, but the confidence of complete results is not there.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0963996912002062">Contents of fluoride, lead, copper, chromium, arsenic and cadmium in Chinese Pu-erh tea</a> <b style="background-color: #fcff01;">(2012)</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Very interesting; this is basically what I was looking for. I looked up when the Chinese government banned use of lead in gasoline, since that's going to be a factor, and that was in 2000. Another reference, which I'll get to, said that beyond that (generally earlier input) use of coal also amounted to a considerable input factor, and Chinese production of electricity from coal probably increased quite a bit from 2012 to today. </p><p>On to considering a relevant citation:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>In order to assess safety for consumers and the levels of contamination in Pu-erh tea, the authors studied the contents of fluoride, lead, copper, chromium, arsenic and cadmium in 56 Chinese samples of Pu-erh tea collected from Dali City, Lincang City, Xishuangbanna City, Simao City and Dehong City in Yunnan province. </b></p><p><b>The ranges obtained for the elements analyzed were <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">80.2–151.6 mg kg− 1 (fluoride)</span>, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">0.66–4.66 mg kg− 1 (lead)</span>, 14.8–19.3 mg kg− 1 (copper), 1.95–4.98 mg kg− 1 (chromium), 0.07–0.25 mg kg− 1 (arsenic) and 0.023–0.130 mg kg− 1 (cadmium). The mean leached analyte concentrations in <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">tea infusion</span> were <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">523.86 μg L− 1 for fluoride</span>, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">5.70 μg L− 1 for lead</span>, 43.18 μg L− 1 for copper, 13.67 μg L− 1 for chromium, 0.43 μg L− 1 for arsenic and 0.17 μg L− 1 for cadmium after the tea leaves were brewed twice with boil water in a ratio of 1 g/50 ml for 5 min. The mean <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">dissolving rates of fluoride</span>, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">lead</span>, copper, chromium, arsenic, and cadmium were <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">45.8%</span>, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">24.6%</span>, 26.2%, 35.2%, 30.8% and 27.4%, respectively. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Lots more there to cover than I'll discuss. Note the average finding range I mentioned, 2 mg lead / kg tea, is expressed here as a findings range of .66-4.66 mg / kg, not a complete match. Their conclusion:</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>Based on a 70 kg individual consuming 15 g of Pu-erh tea daily or 105 g Pu-erh tea weekly, the dietary intake of the studied elements was below the safe limits recommended by various authorities. This suggested that under the current dietary intake, there are no possible health risks to Pu-erh tea drinking consumers.</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Since there is no safe level of exposure to lead (per another reference I'll cite later) "no possible health risks" seems a little strong, but I get what they're saying, that limited food exposure happens, so a normal and low range is regarded as conventional and acceptable. Is 5 μg (per liter) a really low amount? I never really do settle that. It's not easy to find an acceptable low limit for lead exposure since the EPA and such say people should avoid any, and then don't want to move on to state acceptable exposure levels, even though it's going to come up.</p><p>Note that I've written separately <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2017/08/fluoride-in-tea-summary-version.html">about fluoride here</a>. That's still being added to municipal water in a lot of places; it's only really a contaminant and a health risk within a certain dosage range, which I won't go further into here, beyond saying that scanning that post (really the other earlier one that goes into more detail) 10 mg / day comes up as an earlier recommended adult limit, later dropped to more like half that. I think this 523 μg / liter works out to .5 mg; not much. In that post I state that "the treatment level of fluoride (added to municipal water) is .7 to 1.2 mg / liter," of course citing references, so that brewed tea fluoride level is just below treated water level. On the high side two liters of brewed tea from treated water might contain 3.4 mg then; not above the limit, but high enough, and getting there.</p><p>Back to the next reference and considering lead instead.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969722051178">Accumulation of potentially toxic elements in Chinese tea (Camellia sinensis): Towards source apportionment and health risk assessment</a> <b style="background-color: #fcff01;"> (2022)</b></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Tea (Camellia sinensis) is a popular beverage that is consumed globally. However, a better understanding of potentially toxic elements (PTEs) content in tea leaves and infusion is necessary to minimize risk on human health. Therefore, 249 tea samples (grown in different areas) covering six types of tea were collected in China to investigate the PTEs contents, identify their potential source and assess the health risk associated with drinking tea. </b></p><p><b>PTE contents in tea leaves across six tea types were ND–0.900 (Cd), 0.005–2.133 (As), <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">ND–5.679 (Pb)</span>, ND–13.86 (Cr), 1.601–22.93 (Ni), ND–2.048 (Se), <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">0.109–622.4 (F)</span>, 13.02–269.9 (Rb), 1.845–50.88 (Sr), and 2.796–53.23 (Ba) mg/kg. The result of <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">tea infusion</span> showed that 14.3 %–44.1 % (green tea), 14.5 %–46.7 % (black tea), 10.5 %–25.3 % (dark tea), 13.6 %–34.2 % (oolong tea), 16.9 %–40.7 % (yellow tea), and 19.9 %–35.1 % (white tea) <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">of F were released</span>. All tea types, except green tea, exhibited comparatively low leachability of Cd, As, Pb and Cr in tea infusion. </b></p><p><b>The source apportionment revealed that PTEs in tea leaves mainly originated from soil parental materials, while industrial activities, fertilizer application, and manufacturing processes may contribute to exogenous Se, Cd, As, and Cr accumulation. <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">Health risk assessment indicated that F in tea infusion dominated the health risk. </span></b></p><p><br /></p><p>It's interesting that a relatively similar finding for fluoride level, as in the earlier study, was identified as a potential health risk, while it wasn't earlier. That earlier study identified an average of 80 to 150 mg / kg Fluoride and this a range of .1 to 644 (so four times higher on the high end, but negligible on the low side).</p><p>Here the lead range is not detectable to 5.7 mg / kg of dry leaf; a little higher top range, but similar (the other was 0.66–4.66 mg / kg (lead). Extraction rate was 24.6% in the last study for lead (just mentioned as low here), but we're still back to considering if the earlier exposure level was ok or not (5.70 μg / liter for lead). It sounds low, but really a second review of food exposure levels would really help place that, and I didn't get to that here. </p><p>Google does offer this, as a starting point:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>What are the maximum levels for lead in certain food categories?</b></p><p><b>Heavy metals</b></p><p><b>The maximum allowed lead content ranges from 0.01 mg/kg in some baby foods to 3 mg/kg in food supplements. Most meat products, fats, and oils should not contain more than 0.1 mg/kg of lead, while the limits for fruit, vegetables, and fungi vary between 0.1 mg/kg and 0.8 mg/kg.Jun 4, 2566 BE</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>.1 mg would be 100 micrograms; that's a good bit in comparison to what's turning up here. It's necessary to note that I'm switching around between dosage level per liter and amount per kg; it takes awhile to brew up a kg of tea, and that 24% extraction rate is positive (versus that being higher). If you eat a kg of lettuce presumably that .1 to .8 mg--100 to 800 μg--goes right into you. That's a lot of lettuce, but nothing like brewing 1000 grams of tea 5 to 8 grams at a time.</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><a href="https://www.food.gov.uk/research/chemical-hazards-in-food-and-feed/analyses-of-lead-levels-in-tea">Analyses of lead levels in tea</a> (seemingly from a 2014 review)</p><p><br /></p><p><b>This study was carried out to address the urgent need to gather more data on levels of lead (Pb) in tea, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">to inform current EU discussions on a proposed maximum limit of 1 mg/kg Pb</span> in tea (‘dried leaves and stalks, fermented or otherwise of Camellia sinensis’).</b></p><p><b>Levels of Pb were quantified in 51 samples of black and green tea leaves.These samples were also analysed as tea liquid (drink), after steeping the tea leaves for both a shorter and a longer brew time, following an agreed protocol. 11 different varieties of dried tea (including a white tea) from different tea growing regions were also purchased and analysed to ensure there was good geographic and tea-type coverage.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Note that the tested range went way beyond that considered 1 mg / kg limit in those other studies, up to 4.6 and 5.7 mg / kg.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>The study findings showed that the levels of lead in the 51 samples of dried tea varied significantly and <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">ranged from 0.125 to 2.56 mg/kg</span>.</b></p><p><b>The levels of lead found in the brewed teas were very low <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">with half the results being less than the limit of detection 0.2µg/L (1 µg/L=0.001mg/kg).</span></b></p><p><b>Teas brewed for a longer period of time resulted in only a slightly higher level of lead.</b></p><p><b>The levels of lead found in the additional 11 dry teas ranged from <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">0.177 to 1.96 mg/kg.</span></b></p><p><b>Exposure to lead from the consumption of the brewed teas as tested is not considered to be of concern for consumer health compared to normal levels of exposure to lead from all dietary sources. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>They were one stat away from expressing clear findings, identifying the brewed tea lead levels and an average across the samples for that range. It's a lot to go through just to say "it was low" at the end. The paper itself (linked there; that's just a summary) goes further:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Two samples contained Pb levels above 1 µg/L and the highest level, 2 µg/L, was
found in a sample of green tea (Chinese Sencha).</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Ok then, three samples ranged at or above 1 µg/L, out of 51, which is still low, based on input from the other papers.</p><p>Presumably the conclusion here is that a 1 mg / kg dry tea lead level isn't the right threshold limit, and 2 or 2 1/2 is still no problem (relating back to considering 1 mg / kg as an import level limit).</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.lead.org.au/lanv10n3/lanv10n3-5.html">In China, where is the lead contamination coming from?</a></p><p><br /></p><p>Initially I was concerned that leaded gasoline might be an issue, but this reviewed identified that was banned in 2000 (so it's surely not being produced or sold in China now, right?). It's an odd starting point but this is how they open that:</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>It is common to use effluent as a fertiliser in China. This results in accumulation over time, within fields, of heavy metals.- cadmium, chromium, copper, nickel, lead and zinc (Cd, Cr, Cu, Ni, Pb and Zn).</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Interesting! A lot of the paper is about lead contamination in water sources, presumably from a number of industrial waste sources, natural sources, or from coal use, as described further:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Lead can be emitted during the mining and smelting of mercury ores, because most such ores also contain lead. Lead is also emitted during the burning of coal. Researchers in Guizhou province, where there are 12 large mercury mining and smelting operations and heavy coal-powered industry, found that rice accounted for 94-96% of the uptake of methyl mercury (Raloff, 2010). They were not testing for lead, but it is likely that the rice was also a source of lead in the diet...</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>...What the evidence from water catchments in the more industrialised parts of the China shows is that there is a clear link between lead contamination of the environment and industrial activity. Coal use in China is rising steadily and it should be noted that coal naturally contains lead.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Tea gardens would surely never water plants from the Yangtze river, or other polluted sources, but I suppose airborne lead exposure is probably a concern.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.who.int/news/item/27-10-2021-who-guidance-to-reduce-illness-due-to-lead-exposure">WHO guidance to reduce illness due to lead exposure</a></p><p><br /></p><p>I never did find much guidance on safe lead exposure limits or relative risk of exposure but this is a start:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>The WHO Guideline for Clinical Management of Exposure to Lead recommends a blood lead concentration of 5 micrograms per decilitre (μg/dL) as a trigger for a thorough review of the ways in which a person is being exposed to lead and for action to reduce or end this exposure.</b></p><p><b>With 1 in 3 children estimated to have blood lead levels in excess of the 5μg/dL threshold[1], according to the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF)...</b></p><p><b>“There is no known safe level of lead in the human body. The new guideline will help the diagnosis and treatment of lead exposure for individual patients and help health workers tackle mass poisoning incidents,” said Lesley Onyon, Scientist, Chemical Safety and Health Unit.</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>This covers more on general effects and risk sources:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Lead in the body affects practically all organ systems, travelling to the brain, liver and kidney and accumulating in the teeth and bones, where it can last decades and move from bones back into the blood during pregnancy, exposing the developing foetus.</b></p><p><b>It is still widespread owing to current and past use of the metal and its salts, most commonly in storage batteries, ammunition, pipes (including those used for water supply) and in alloys such as solder, pigments, paints, glazes, plastics and even some traditional medicines, cosmetics and spices.</b></p><p><b>Lead was once used extensively in petrol additives, but this has recently been banned in all countries in the world. But in many popular uses, particularly lead in paint, remain although alternatives are known and available. </b></p><p><br /></p><p>Framed this way it sounds like more of a "developing world" issue than related to standard risks. I'm still a little concerned about those food exposure levels; surely that's not a complete non-issue, even if lead pipes, paint, glazes, and cosmetics may pose more risk, when that's not carefully controlled.</p><p><br /></p><p>Another reference says more about lead exposure risk and effects, but I won't go further with that, only mentioning it here for those still interested in going further:</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4961898/">Lead toxicity: a review</a></p><p><br /></p><p>Tea seems to only pose a very limited lead exposure risk, in general, although I guess there could always be exceptions. </p><p>I don't love the idea of consuming 5 µg / liter, even if I still don't feel like I can place what that means. At least the teas tested in the British samples study identified 48 out of 51 with levels below 1 µg / liter, two samples around 1 microgram and one at 2, and half below the testing threshold of .2 µg / liter.</p><p>So we should probably "use trusted tea sources?" That's always a little problematic, isn't it? At least the worst case doesn't sound so bad. It makes you wonder how bad food risk is, if this is all on the low side compared to that.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-69469371487976174422024-02-25T01:26:00.000-08:002024-02-25T01:26:25.217-08:00Sweetest Dew / Dylan Conroy sharing exceptional Qimen<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgzZCTIRJhU6JCnHt-IyHUPgz7X3iW6HVWqsB7nwgY5juCJsei4QJaUVzBddJ3Q6hBTDO6fVGGLKPGjbMs5BK6BCGx_dseFlRE2LuLKdAGDTlLyiL_GD18R_-Rw7GUBOWB0pGsUxZZN5sj3Do-6NiypuGAWX7hekQK-c6dWIb0WSE3pyRKf2EtWVokFOVp5/s1053/Qimen.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1053" height="486" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgzZCTIRJhU6JCnHt-IyHUPgz7X3iW6HVWqsB7nwgY5juCJsei4QJaUVzBddJ3Q6hBTDO6fVGGLKPGjbMs5BK6BCGx_dseFlRE2LuLKdAGDTlLyiL_GD18R_-Rw7GUBOWB0pGsUxZZN5sj3Do-6NiypuGAWX7hekQK-c6dWIb0WSE3pyRKf2EtWVokFOVp5/w640-h486/Qimen.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>This is a second review of teas sent by Dylan Conroy for me to try (<a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2024/02/mao-feng-material-white-tea-and-wang.html">after reviewing a white tea here</a>), as much sharing experience as for review exposure, but both. These are Qimen, a main black tea type he has been focusing on.</p><p>That type should be familiar as an older tea type, more original, often now sold as high volume production and moderate quality versions. Of course there are exceptional versions out there, but they don't make it to the West so often. People might demand Lapsang Souchong, Jin Jun Mei, or Dian Hong more, as Chinese black teas go, then onto Golden Monkey or whatever else.</p><p>These two tea versions were amazing. I'll let the review description go on more about that, not really even doing much with conclusions beyond that account. He sent a third to try, but I tend to avoid doing three way comparison reviews these days, so I'll get back to that. It's too much tea to try, and I don't brew tea without actually drinking it. I'll let his Sweetest Dew vending page description of both types serve as an introduction:</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://sweetestdew.com/products/untitled-sep21_10-02?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=0beadfc8d&pr_rec_pid=7421820469336&pr_ref_pid=7421164355672&pr_seq=uniform">Old Style Qimen</a> (listing for a bit under $30 per 50 grams, I think, 911 baht, although I'm not seeing that volume clearly defined)</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>Qimens originally were picked around Gu Yu, late April, underwent no shape making step and Then were then baked using charcoal. The maker of this tea is replicating the original Qimen.</b></p><p><b>Because the tea is a late pick, it is mostly leaves. And while you may expect a dark bitter brew, what you get instead is a medium-light brew that is very clean and has notes of natural honey and nuts. The profile isn't very complex but the flavor is simply enjoyable.</b></p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://sweetestdew.com/products/untitled-sep19_09-59">Qimen Mao Feng</a> (the same price, 911 baht, or under $30 for 50 grams)</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Qimen Mao Feng is the smoothest out of all the Qimens.</b></p><p><b>Contary to popular belief Qimen Mao Fengs are not made with the mao feng cultivar or use the Mao Feng picking standard. Mao Feng simply means there is no shape making step, the leaves hold the natural shape they took on during the making.</b></p><p><b>Qimen Mao Fengs, the original Qimen black tea, is the smoothest of all the styles. It also boasts the the most savory body. This particular one is rich and deep with a whismical floral aroma to it. While boasting no loud flavor notes or aromas, this Qimen will sooth you with a calm but rich body that is reminisent of Mao Feng green tea.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>I looked for a picture of Dylan on his sales site but didn't find one. Maybe I'll show what he looks like in one last review post. I did see <a href="https://sweetestdew.com/products/office-travel-gong-fu-set">a cool looking travel set there</a>, a small gaiwan and four cups, for about $20. That might be worth looking into if someone is going to order tea, since shipping works out better if get more stuff, since the value gets better and better, the ratio of what you buy to cost of sending it, if the selling price is good to begin with.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiTkHBMlxPA3ssy3dLZP3ICNjzsx9vRmuq_YAT0JQYQiRs9Urxq6CZg0SiMP4KejVjCNgk2Cg7cIoXZ1vicX8k_GESToN27qczKCNlO_XWQZR9l7s3EA-cfwbb1bPRgOjo3HHxdf9mizhgf9NviO5itTYZSqaTVaP9I3Y2adniy5wtapP9OtgP20kDZ3Tvg/s1064/Q%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1064" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiTkHBMlxPA3ssy3dLZP3ICNjzsx9vRmuq_YAT0JQYQiRs9Urxq6CZg0SiMP4KejVjCNgk2Cg7cIoXZ1vicX8k_GESToN27qczKCNlO_XWQZR9l7s3EA-cfwbb1bPRgOjo3HHxdf9mizhgf9NviO5itTYZSqaTVaP9I3Y2adniy5wtapP9OtgP20kDZ3Tvg/w640-h480/Q%201.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Old Style Qimen:</b> I've not had even a basic version of qimen in so long I can't place how this relates to that. I remember it as basic black tea, maybe a bit inky as flavor ranges go, but then I never tried anything presented as exceptional.</p><p>This is exceptional. It's inky too, with good sweetness, good flavor complexity, great balance and depth. Flavor might center on something along the lines of roasted sweet potato. Mineral depth really stands out; it's complex. Feel is nice and rich, especially for this being a first relatively light round. I tend to go back to Dian Hong range as a baseline, for style, aspects, and match to preference, and this doesn't overlap that much with that typical range. It's more refined, which is good, with a lot of depth and complexity, but it's not as basic in a sense that's both good and also limiting. Depth comes across as much as the flavor, at this point, it's not as flavor-forward, which really could relate to it being a first round. It's too early for those kind of conclusions anyway.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Qimen Mao Feng: </b>before that fully registered it stood out that it's good. This has pretty good depth too but there's a range of intense flavor that really stands out. This reminds me a little of the more oxidized style of Jin Jun Mei, the warmer, honey-toned versions of those. Not a little either, an awful lot. <a href="https://www.wuyiorigin.com/collections/wuyi-black/products/jin-jun-mei-honey-style%e8%9c%9c%e9%a6%99%e9%87%91%e9%aa%8f%e7%9c%89-2023">I mean like this version</a>. The strong honey note is common with those, ranging from honey taste into beeswax. There is some general roasted sweet potato / yam range too; let's just say it's more yam in this version, even though at some point these interpretations tend to be guesswork. Warm mineral tone also stands out. Not like in the other, exactly, where that base layer and depth is a good half of the overall experience, but it supports the rest. </p><p>Both of these are very complex and refined. This is a quality range in black teas that doesn't come up that often. To say that neither includes any flaws is technically correct, but it's discussing a range of concerns that doesn't even come to mind. These are carefully and well made teas, the product of a long tradition, for sure. It is also interesting trying versions from new places, people originating new styles, or borrowing from other areas, and this doesn't seem to be that. </p><p>Maybe "Qimen Mao Feng" is a reference to exactly what I'm describing [later edit: it's not], but even if so it's not a case of a new tea maker sorting out processing. It couldn't be. I can love the results from such a set of inputs, or possibly even prefer a version to these, but it never results in tea this refined. The unusually fine leaf and bud material is surely a related input; that's not typical of almost any black tea types. It's normal for Jin Jun Mei, and that's about it, of what I've tried.</p><p>I'm curious how this version can brew darker liquid when the leaf oxidation level seems much lighter (the color), and this includes a lot of fine bud content. Intuitively both would seem to lead towards the opposite outcome. For once no speculation goes with that observation; I just don't know.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhd9P0yrGN6tzd7ySa3E04sS12rSrvhwr0ZLrXi2ZdWZULr6YsEKPmerhOYjwl8rvRJDBvyWV27kPdvsmtvtdX8cmSq50xp5ddt_XUzGTY5WpNv8ZDCyhMEbICzH380IQje-JxL6ZYGkfuogSLXJZ5sI7AwiygDOEyzXqtY1ZvDcuM_1kfE3a5a2Cmjn4Po/s1064/IMG_20240224_152411.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1064" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhd9P0yrGN6tzd7ySa3E04sS12rSrvhwr0ZLrXi2ZdWZULr6YsEKPmerhOYjwl8rvRJDBvyWV27kPdvsmtvtdX8cmSq50xp5ddt_XUzGTY5WpNv8ZDCyhMEbICzH380IQje-JxL6ZYGkfuogSLXJZ5sI7AwiygDOEyzXqtY1ZvDcuM_1kfE3a5a2Cmjn4Po/w640-h480/IMG_20240224_152411.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Old Style Qimen #2: </b> intensity picks up in this, not that it was overly subtle the first round. I'm not going to do justice to unpacking this complex flavor. Warm mineral is definitely the base; that part is easy. Roasted sweet potato is still dominant, but there's a lot more going on this round. It seems like floral range joined that, a very rich, deep, and heavy floral range, like rose petals. Dried fruit might relate to some of the rest, in a type range that's hard to pin down, along the line of dried tamarind, but that's not it. It's so intense that it seems like there's more to it yet, maybe something like caraway seed spice, tying this to how a dark rye bread might come across. </p><p>It's pleasant; it all really integrates. It comes across as all one thing, but then when you try to describe what that is it seems like there's a lot to it. Feel is rich and some aftertaste experience adds depth. I would expect the other to be considerably different too; this will be a lot to experience in just two rounds.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Mao Feng Qimen: </b> it's more that the balance of the flavors from the last round changed, but something is fundamentally different in how it comes across. It tastes like brandy; it has that richness, intensity, and depth. Teas taking on a liqueur- like quality isn't new, but this form of that isn't familiar. A high quality Wuyi Yancha oolong might start into that range, but not like this, in a lighter range form, like a touch of cognac versus this resembling brandy. </p><p>Intensity, refinement, and complexity for this tea version are all off the charts. There's a "wow!" effect, a simple response of appreciation, that goes beyond the attempt to evaluate aspects or describe it in terms of liking it to a certain degree. This is better tea than I would tend to try to drink on a regular basis, even cost aside; tea just doesn't need to be like this. Versions that are more basic, with simpler character and more rough edges, essentially almost all black teas, compared to this, can be appealing for being approachable, for not requiring or implying that you should fully experience and appreciate them. </p><p><br /></p><p>It would seem absurd to drink this tea along with toast and jam. It would be good though, once you moved past that set of expectations. I just never would have this tea with a rushed breakfast, which to me isn't necessarily the core of tea drinking and appreciation, that role as a mundane beverage, but somehow that helps me connect with teas, in a sense. </p><p>Anyone who has tried a very exceptional, refined, complex, and unique Jin Jun Mei knows what I'm talking about. I want to stop short of saying that some teas can be too high in quality, since I don't mean that, but moving past all "basicness" in style can almost seem to come with some limitation. Very refined Wuyi Yancha can be similar; it calls for a different kind of experiential approach to really take it in. I'm not an aesthetic setting / ceremonial approach / mystical tea experience kind of guy; for people on that page this could take black tea experience to another level.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgbuedWzAERslPuzMHQwMpfgflTgXaK1NXAPhvvGaRUtYJodkKe-oZrEL4nEqegtyTzYY1HnfhWb2-Z69-DLC5Od_f7btKw1IfNx9hY7AlVjZc_Z-Vyj_M5PnEz2e76CjtAJ4dpNIjz4-M4t-qCcz1VjK2n5HY8F7OjlLNVO3PNkqlnlYucCbjhYldn_DRC/s1064/Q%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1064" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgbuedWzAERslPuzMHQwMpfgflTgXaK1NXAPhvvGaRUtYJodkKe-oZrEL4nEqegtyTzYY1HnfhWb2-Z69-DLC5Od_f7btKw1IfNx9hY7AlVjZc_Z-Vyj_M5PnEz2e76CjtAJ4dpNIjz4-M4t-qCcz1VjK2n5HY8F7OjlLNVO3PNkqlnlYucCbjhYldn_DRC/w640-h480/Q%203.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Old Style Qimen #3:</b> brewed lighter it comes across as less intense, but not so different otherwise. The depth and refinement are really nice. Complexity would stand out more if this wasn't compared to the other version. This is definitely nothing at all like the low-medium quality commercial versions of Qimen I've tried before.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Mao Feng Qimen: </b> the way the balance of the aspects I described shift is really novel and appealing, but hard to describe. Different parts stand out more brewed at different intensity, or else it's just evolving through rounds, or both. That beeswax note is really catchy, and the overall effect, the balance of complex flavors, is very appealing. Higher end and forward flavor range balances so well with depth and a mineral base. </p><p>Refinement is exceptional, not just a lack of flaws, but the opposite. That last set of comments is the closest I've ever came to complaining that the quality level is too high.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiTuI4IwqMqf4caCh8DJaoqrbForBf5pn0Ag9SYQmlItYEzBtM6njJS9woYAnldPU_Pt3hvU3d1f45dTjLPXSdIbrVbjz-59IxJRl3_XFkPywVW2qlo1DMKj8bb5RD1WxST31wCpIwfTYMe0WMw_8tGNpOwlaUqkcGnh2GrgNmHBinawwuNwaxB-SfxgHpA/s1064/Q%204.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1064" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiTuI4IwqMqf4caCh8DJaoqrbForBf5pn0Ag9SYQmlItYEzBtM6njJS9woYAnldPU_Pt3hvU3d1f45dTjLPXSdIbrVbjz-59IxJRl3_XFkPywVW2qlo1DMKj8bb5RD1WxST31wCpIwfTYMe0WMw_8tGNpOwlaUqkcGnh2GrgNmHBinawwuNwaxB-SfxgHpA/w640-h480/Q%204.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Old Style Qimen #4: </b> a dark wood tone base picks up. It's not like when teas get brewed out, and become woody, more that aromatic / aged furniture range that can come up, in between the flavor of rich dark tropical wood and aromatic oil that might be used as a preservative. The thickness and richness of this tea is really something. After you swallow it the aftertaste experience almost seems stronger than the taste while drinking it. Rich mineral base seems to connect with a warm spice aspect, an aromatic incense range of spice, which of course is not separate from what I'm describing as aged furniture / tropical dark wood / essential oil that I can't place. It's closest to an aromatic bark spice range but it also includes root spice sort of depth. It's all quite nice. </p><p><br /></p><p>I doubt this tea is close to finished but I'll need to stop taking notes to go run an errand, and drinking 8 fast cups of hot tea on a ridiculously hot Bangkok afternoon is pushing it. I ran 10k this morning, up early anyway to take our cat to get a bandage changed, an outcome from fighting a street cat, and experienced some mild heat stroke even at 10 AM. </p><p>It's nice being able to see that on a heart rate graph now. I don't need to, I can feel it internally, but there it is in stats, that I was running a slow pace (6:30 km or so) at 160 bpm heart rate, for the last 6 km. The actual experience had more immediacy and depth than the stats; I felt a lot like walking instead. But I didn't; I kept running "slow," and toughed it out.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgO6RKxjY9c9mCc-BaHhn_qXqdpCEFx5KZKXd0TgDt-m5sU8rLvAaHSB_RqFFdoTtTFbZmIMDUgxOxcgrRUWGxw3uFjaHuSEguRKqBWE-ukXjHXFQg__Kq3VGzWrbGAJKznYpxpN0T_aB9CwqQv016PiruG8tzrRhFntfgH2oG6_Du_VlSafjQ0VRgIUMFc/s1549/Feb%2024,%202024%20running%20capture%20edit.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1549" data-original-width="1080" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgO6RKxjY9c9mCc-BaHhn_qXqdpCEFx5KZKXd0TgDt-m5sU8rLvAaHSB_RqFFdoTtTFbZmIMDUgxOxcgrRUWGxw3uFjaHuSEguRKqBWE-ukXjHXFQg__Kq3VGzWrbGAJKznYpxpN0T_aB9CwqQv016PiruG8tzrRhFntfgH2oG6_Du_VlSafjQ0VRgIUMFc/w446-h640/Feb%2024,%202024%20running%20capture%20edit.jpg" width="446" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>for me doing 5k at 150 bpm is a rough go</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjO0jUbku5oHiHPnPqK1Z_63uiRTlKxoHwNtpMsrFgjmHdD-XqQXA6hQ_kTNdLBNte-MEuulw3umG50KbqA0RcjmAxvGFAQV_0kOvjZL-njkRTX9_tyL4T6Dh7Mx_p92iYB3MsZrOQkvSaOxryjMK49k0YMGjjrIAXDhwOgRNxXVu1ik6r1hKRr139TEg_7/s1378/Feb%2024,%202024%20running%20capture%202%20edit.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1378" data-original-width="1080" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjO0jUbku5oHiHPnPqK1Z_63uiRTlKxoHwNtpMsrFgjmHdD-XqQXA6hQ_kTNdLBNte-MEuulw3umG50KbqA0RcjmAxvGFAQV_0kOvjZL-njkRTX9_tyL4T6Dh7Mx_p92iYB3MsZrOQkvSaOxryjMK49k0YMGjjrIAXDhwOgRNxXVu1ik6r1hKRr139TEg_7/w502-h640/Feb%2024,%202024%20running%20capture%202%20edit.jpg" width="502" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>what struggling looks like (note device distances don't match--strange)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><b>Mao Feng Qimen: </b> floral range picked up a lot. The earlier flavors are still there, but this continued that trend of the balance completely shifting round to round. That's pleasant, and novel. Transitions across infusions is normal but it's usually not that extreme. New flavors can join, or some from the earlier set can drop out, but that kind of thing is more common for sheng pu'er than for black tea.</p><p>I don't feel like this version is completely eclipsing the other but I do like it more, and it's more unique, complex, and novel. </p><p><br /></p><p>From drinking upper-medium level quality oolong I've gotten into the habit of guessing what a normal price range would be for tea versions, for a style and quality level, and for this tea being so unique that really doesn't work. For this version it's more about if the higher end of pricing can still make sense. If this sold for much under $1 a gram it would be underpriced, but in general I just wouldn't consider buying much of anything for $1 a gram. Most of what self-styled "curator vendors" are presenting as high quality, unique, exceptional, refined teas surely aren't on this level.</p><p>Let's consider a reference: that <a href="https://www.wuyiorigin.com/collections/wuyi-black/products/jin-jun-mei-honey-style%e8%9c%9c%e9%a6%99%e9%87%91%e9%aa%8f%e7%9c%89-2023?variant=44936575942971">"honey style" Jin Jun Mei from Wuyi Origin</a>, that I mentioned earlier, somehow sells for $40 for 100 grams (that seems low). <a href="https://www.wuyiorigin.com/collections/wuyi-black/products/wild-jin-jun-mei-fruity-style-%e9%87%8e%e7%94%9f%e9%87%91%e9%aa%8f%e7%9c%89-2023?variant=44937108619579">Their "wild Jin Jun Mei"</a> sells for $74.60 per 100 grams, that might be even better. I can't place this tea version in relation to those two, although it's tempting to try, but it's exceptional enough that the second typically unheard of higher price range--high for black teas--might be about right. Or if a tea style and version barely exists at all, which is probably true of that wild Jin Jun Mei too, then market rate is whatever a source says it is, because there is no second option out there. </p><p>If smaller vendors tip towards a $1 / gram price range because their mark-up practices are different that's not necessarily unjustified. Competing on value with a direct-from-producer outlet isn't practical. Larger outlet vendors will sometimes describe not quite as novel and high quality teas in similar ways and sell them for that just under $1 / gram range. Maybe that's fair too; not everyone is combing the internet for the best value for unrealistic novelty and quality level teas. </p><p>Only a limited subset of tea drinkers could even appreciate what these are, really. And I don't see that as a bad thing; I personally don't need for the teas I experience and enjoy to be anywhere near this good. When I drink Wuyi Origin teas I have a similar experience, that I can tell they're that much better than everything else I ever drink, but that in some limited sense that must still be wasted on me.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>There doesn't seem to be much more to cover, really, since I wrote some conclusions into the notes. The Old Style version was quite good, only seeming less interesting for the Mao Feng version being that extra bit better. I really didn't expect these teas to hold their own with Wuyi Origin's (Cindy's) Jin Jun Mei versions. Maybe only the one did, but quality level, complexity, refinement, and novel style were all really far up the scale for that tea version. It holds its own with anything else.</p><p>For people considering ordering this that might pose a dilemma: it's quite interesting to compare different styles or versions of novel tea types together, but for sure the Mao Feng version is better. It would help shift the psychology of that decision a little if they weren't priced the same.</p><p>They were both pleasant to try; Dylan sharing these samples was much appreciated.</p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-28574506835507041462024-02-25T00:20:00.000-08:002024-02-25T00:20:29.437-08:00ITea World Da Hong Pao and Zhangping Shui Xian<p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgK88TVa3E7cXGpgUUHBuT_KpIkHciP_S5YUJ7fzbfW75k1p2NEHUf33dyrtmjpNezq5UJxle7JU1I_KiqsEkGvQXH5-SVPrvDKLcnzRES1y-G56nDP5ptSgLKgio7RPqKhmnpgV78Z7_Fz9hbs5K_Qc3XSLkAMEvKVEW0sMJRZO9NhE568yNEaarSrAJVI/s1064/ITea%20World%20oolongs.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1064" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgK88TVa3E7cXGpgUUHBuT_KpIkHciP_S5YUJ7fzbfW75k1p2NEHUf33dyrtmjpNezq5UJxle7JU1I_KiqsEkGvQXH5-SVPrvDKLcnzRES1y-G56nDP5ptSgLKgio7RPqKhmnpgV78Z7_Fz9hbs5K_Qc3XSLkAMEvKVEW0sMJRZO9NhE568yNEaarSrAJVI/w640-h480/ITea%20World%20oolongs.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>I'm reviewing the next two types of oolongs that were part of a set sent by ITea World for review. This follows an earlier review of Dan Cong and Tie Guan Yin versions, <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2024/01/itea-world-dan-cong-and-tie-guan-yin.html">here</a>. I had liked that Dan Cong more, but both seemed pleasant, and a reasonable value as moderate cost, above average quality, high volume tea outlet versions.</p><p>The same holds true for these, again with one outshining the other, per my personal preference. The teas come as part of a sample set, <a href="https://iteaworld.com/products/oolong-tea-sampler?ref=ay9eddnn">here</a>; they don't seem to be sold separately. 100 grams of four types of oolong are sold as 5 ounce separate samples, for 1475 baht, about $45. That would be a good price if quality was exceptional, and not all that great a value if it was lower-medium level, and to me it seems fair for what the teas are, pretty good but not necessarily great. They do seem a bit better than the versions they sent for review a year or so before.</p><p><br /></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiu3N8UPhdWqfRZD48nP-oSyMMj2Bxo9c11Mj_ZZCq_bPDWj4ZlpyO3v5gp1X4z0Oiy6uKwhNKuFKuwR3UZ3kEmamdu2DMhXUVDK9Oix9wPJsfhV6o61yVMCn-nUZTOcxmaAXsa9wQGlnLWANE8_JzZ_grTX6BvB-zBDExZsmgJVFZMQiZnP0yC6nnvR9B0" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="240" data-original-width="638" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiu3N8UPhdWqfRZD48nP-oSyMMj2Bxo9c11Mj_ZZCq_bPDWj4ZlpyO3v5gp1X4z0Oiy6uKwhNKuFKuwR3UZ3kEmamdu2DMhXUVDK9Oix9wPJsfhV6o61yVMCn-nUZTOcxmaAXsa9wQGlnLWANE8_JzZ_grTX6BvB-zBDExZsmgJVFZMQiZnP0yC6nnvR9B0=w640-h240" width="640" /></a></div><br /><br /><p></p><p>To me the Dan Cong and Da Hong Pao really outshined the other two versions, but personal preference factors into such a judgement, even though I see it as also based on a fairly objective assessment of quality level and trueness to a standard type. This post spells all that out in great detail, related to these two teas. </p><p>In that earlier post I reviewed how some alternative sources work out, and I'll sample one from the top of a Google search list here to do the same, to clarify the one type, and support what I'm claiming about a market value:</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.palaisdesthes.com/en/zhang-ping-shui-xian-en.html">Palais Des Thes Zhang Ping Shui Xian Grand Cru</a> (selling for $48 per 100 grams)</p><p><br /></p><p><b>This Zhang Ping Shui Xian Grand Cru, which translates to “water fairy from Zhang Ping”, is harvested in the namesake village in Fujian province, China. The tradition of oolong compression continues here: growers carefully compress oolong made from the Shui Xian cultivar into small cubes.</b></p><p><b>A superb oolong with delicate white flower, yellow fruit and vanilla notes which develop against a subtly powdered texture.</b></p><p><b>In order to bring out all the aromatic complexity of this tea, we recommend multiple infusions using the traditional Chinese Gong Fu Cha method.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Maybe that's roughly equivalent in quality level and style, or maybe it's better, or possibly even lower in quality level; there's no way to know without trying it. That Google search turned up countless other examples, some costing significantly less, and again only trying them would indicate style, aspect range, and quality. </p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEifIqEtxVJlELFUlyPwqvvkoL8surz6STuyWKUxIrDjs2z9ZErkt5KcNuDXm6d7_8ErIFCfJEKVWiCIE4Yp2QN0c08QyJyaFoDQqETir37PaNKPrUzR4G0bG8T53uHeR-CoPF1bySifC_UInfhPUQu73402H3QIyGLQu_A6qBUt3NeDmaExFRSK4QdaUIaa/s1064/ITW%20oolong%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1064" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEifIqEtxVJlELFUlyPwqvvkoL8surz6STuyWKUxIrDjs2z9ZErkt5KcNuDXm6d7_8ErIFCfJEKVWiCIE4Yp2QN0c08QyJyaFoDQqETir37PaNKPrUzR4G0bG8T53uHeR-CoPF1bySifC_UInfhPUQu73402H3QIyGLQu_A6qBUt3NeDmaExFRSK4QdaUIaa/w640-h480/ITW%20oolong%201.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Da Hong Pao: </b>this is nice. It's so heavy on cinnamon flavor that it seems more type-typical for Rou Gui than Da Hong Pao, but it probably includes more Rou Gui than Shui Xian, and probably little or none of Qi Dan or Bei Dou, the more original DHP cultivars. Da Hong Pao means two different things: a derivative version of one of the original plant versions (7 originally, was it?), or else a style, most typically a blend of other plant types made to taste a certain way, typically with an upper-medium roast input level. This could be the second thing. Or it's conceivable that it could just be Rou Gui, but I doubt that.</p><p><a href="https://www.wuyiorigin.com/collections/2020-wuyi-ming-cong/products/da-hong-pao-blended-%e6%8b%bc%e9%85%8d%e5%a4%a7%e7%ba%a2%e8%a2%8d-2023">This producer outlet listing of blended Da Hong Pao</a> clarifies what I mean, about DHP also referring to a blend.</p><p>It's good, the main thing. And the style is fine for the DHP range; it's appropriate. It includes a good bit of inky mineral depth that works as a quality level marker across a lot of Wuyi Yancha range (just not always present; the styles of those vary, and plant types). Sweetness is good, as is flavor range and overall balance. Aftertaste is pronounced, already, including mostly that heavy cinnamon note.</p><p>Other flavor range matches ordinary DHP scope. Warm mineral and cinnamon stand out the most, and the warm tones of a roast input (probably coupled with significant oxidation, not the low level version). The rest is what people tend to describe in lots of different ways, as a familiar range, but one that doesn't map over to food and other flavor experience all that well. It tastes like leather, or aromatic dark woods, towards incense spice, and so on. It's not dis-similar to some dried fruit, like tamarind, but that's not it. Probably an obscure spice reference is better than that whole list of guesses.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Zhangping Shui Xian:</b> this isn't really opened up yet; it will probably take two long infusions just to get it going. I'll pass on an early impression anyway. It's too light to come across as positively as it will when brewed stronger. Often a bright freshness is a main part of this style of oolong, if the couple of examples I've tried are an indication, and this doesn't include all that much of that just yet. The flavor that is present isn't too far off good Tie Guan Yin range. </p><p>If floral tones pick up, and sweetness, and a fresh edge, this will be right where it should be. If not it will be a decent but somewhat muted version of this style. I'll take it apart to give it a chance to express itself better.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhHpSLlQv-BXpBjvq8iPPsIfGkxBsTjrf2MVnq2EMqjIK2D7Hy__8WscDARB4Y1PpaImcsLZimLwtKYqRNFazws4mejmTc5lUNtnh6qLAX6G_Fs4IR75_oFkQ74NkEnj-pqy7Msha0rSsnGvm72xz3TIeQrlEKEpxMlRmp5_cJ_m16lcz8-rXN_3-8r0TSc/s1064/IMG_20240219_104206.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1064" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhHpSLlQv-BXpBjvq8iPPsIfGkxBsTjrf2MVnq2EMqjIK2D7Hy__8WscDARB4Y1PpaImcsLZimLwtKYqRNFazws4mejmTc5lUNtnh6qLAX6G_Fs4IR75_oFkQ74NkEnj-pqy7Msha0rSsnGvm72xz3TIeQrlEKEpxMlRmp5_cJ_m16lcz8-rXN_3-8r0TSc/w640-h480/IMG_20240219_104206.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>DHP #2: </b>mineral tones really pick up, from pronounced to quite strong. That's positive, as I see it, a normal form of this type. Roast input is moderate enough that that's lending to this effect quite a bit but it doesn't taste charred, in a good balance. For people loving a lighter style of these range of teas that's not ideal, but DHP typically is like this, so those people should be drinking something else, a single cultivar type identified as made in that style. Oddly when a version is sold as Qi Dan or Bei Dou it wouldn't usually be made in exactly this style; DHP really does refer to a processing form, even when the most original plant types are made into something that could fairly be called that, or really represent the original range even more than this evolved modern form does. </p><p>Aftertaste is good in this, and feel thickness is upper medium, so in a pretty good balance. The mineral really stays with you. It really tastes like ink smells, as it should. That effect leans a little towards a liqueur or perfume like character.</p><p>This is what you hope random gambling-oriented purchases of DHP in Chinatown shops would be like, and it almost never is. I like lower quality DHP too though; to me some styles carry over and work better as lower quality versions, even giving up a positive attribute here or there. Lower medium quality Tie Guan Yin can be drinkable but not as pleasant. Moderate quality Dian Hong can be great. I suppose that's all more about my subjective preference than anything that is grounded beyond my experience.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Zhangping Shui Xian: </b> it has good depth, and is pleasant in character. The main limitation seems to come from my own expectations, of this including bright floral range and freshness. It's not like that, at least not in a pronounced form. The main flavor is quite similar to Tie Guan Yin range, but a warmer and more vegetal variation of that. I suppose that's like Taiwanese oolong, just without the one pronounced unusual note those tend to include, a strong floral tone. I could imagine people loving this style, but I don't. It needs a bit more sweetness and floral range to tie the rest together.</p><p>It says on the packaging this is from an old plant source, and in some cases forward or higher end intensity can be diminished in older plants, swapped out for a greater depth. That doesn't hold as true for Dan Cong; the range of sweet and aromatic tones in those tends to have a strong forward, higher end, more fragrant component, even in styles and versions where depth is more pronounced. I'm not familiar enough with this style range to place it as just a normal variation or else atypical instead.</p><p>Other quality markers, beyond sweetness and flavor intensity, aren't as positive as they could be. Thickness of feel is very limited, as is aftertaste. It just doesn't seem exceptional. It's good though, it's ok, but not as pleasant or seemingly a match in quality level to the DHP version. That also isn't really in the "best of the best" range, but it's very positive, and works well, even venturing into complex and refined character, so close enough.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjbWw4D7baRb-btzATFz4VvKPERwNFiLnfIUi0DHYPMh5x2jAgVy0wPcLYMjqexd8oibRsdHy07ja3q0dvkrHBBgPJi-jyHT-3dWT8JnOFhWAOLliUaquvsEIy7KyA7kF8YS7YttMgapEwruehb3inb4HKZ_2OixnGJmteuoPEOMmhrBhd-6UP8_RImyQZ3/s1064/ITW%20oolong%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="798" data-original-width="1064" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjbWw4D7baRb-btzATFz4VvKPERwNFiLnfIUi0DHYPMh5x2jAgVy0wPcLYMjqexd8oibRsdHy07ja3q0dvkrHBBgPJi-jyHT-3dWT8JnOFhWAOLliUaquvsEIy7KyA7kF8YS7YttMgapEwruehb3inb4HKZ_2OixnGJmteuoPEOMmhrBhd-6UP8_RImyQZ3/w640-h480/ITW%20oolong%203.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>DHP #3:</b> more of the same; as described before. I'd be surprised if this isn't half Rou Gui. If so that's fine; they seem to have blended inputs that balance each other well, which is a good example of that second definition of Da Hong Pao. A touch more woodiness enters in this round; this may be as positive as it will be, and could transition to be less exceptional over 2 or 3 more rounds. We'll see.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Zhangping Shui Xian:</b> also more of the same. A bit of additional warm spice may be picking up; it's better than in the first two rounds. There is a fullness and depth to this, across flavor and to a lesser extent also feel range, with a touch more aftertaste expression picking up. For people who love the greenest / lightest styles of Wuyi Yancha this may work well enough. I can appreciate that style range, depending on what aspects are there, and I like this, but to me it's not really exceptional. </p><p>Beyond lacking intensity, and some flavor aspect range that could be present, it includes no flaws. It's hard to explain how that defines it, or where to place it in relation to what's not there. This could easily taste woody, or include a trace of sourness, and so on, and it doesn't. I might have not mentioned much for flavor yet, beyond that it's vaguely vegetal, in a neutral sense. It's probably floral too, in a relatively neutral sense, as something like chrysanthemum is. That's why it comes across as including depth and some complexity, even though flavor intensity is limited.</p><p>I'll give these one more 30 second or so infusion and then leave off taking notes. That won't cover how they transition through the last half of the infusion range, but I can mention something about that later in a conclusion section, after drinking more later. </p><p>I'm brewing 5 grams each of these, the sample versions, which is more like conventional Gongfu approach than I usually use. I tend to max out proportion, brewing 7 or 8 grams in a 100 ml gaiwan, requiring using 10 to 15 second infusion times across the first half of the cycle, and resulting in brewing over a dozen rounds. Either way works.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>DHP 4: </b> this might be fading a little; that can happen, for using a lower proportion, and extending brewing times. It's far from done but this won't make it past a dozen infusions, or maybe even 10. I bet you could keep stretching this though, brewing it for 45 seconds to a minute lots of times, then even longer. Cinnamon is fading as woody tones pick up; it's on the downhill side of positive character too. </p><p>I was drinking both on the strong side, really pushing them both to drink this strong related to the other being subtle in character. You could use shorter times and light infusion strength and this DHP would've been fine, or maybe better, per someone else's taste preference.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Zhangping Shui Xian: </b> it's fine, not different than last round.</p><p>I might mention that as a sheng pu'er drinker I'm acclimated to a really high intensity level in tea character. For someone dialed into a lighter range this would probably come across better. The intensity of the DHP brewed a bit strong worked for me, but this stays a bit subtle, picking up depth but not overall intensity. Sweetness and bright floral tone missing seemed a limitation, although I suppose that it's possible that this is one conventional style version of this tea type.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>Those did start fading after that, so durability wasn't exceptional for either, but again I was pushing the teas related to using a low proportion (for me) and brewing them a bit strong.</p><p>So how good were they? To me it's important to specify that within a range. Were they presented as exceptional quality, boutique producer teas, or as better than average standard outlet versions? Were they supposed to compete with the better curator vendor offerings, or instead high volume online outlets, or Chinatown shops? In the middle, I think. I'll add pricing and some background during the final editing but from the last review these are sold as medium priced teas, implying a medium level of quality.</p><p>In relation to that they're good. I liked the Da Hong Pao version more, and it seemed like a better quality tea to me, but both were nice enough. Both fell within a general range for type, although perhaps the Shui Xian could've been a little different, brighter in tone, with more floral range, and sweeter. As I've mentioned this could've been within a standard range though; it's not a type or style I'm all that familiar with, having only tried a couple of related versions before.</p><p>In the last combined review from this set I liked the Dan Cong version more than the Tie Guan Yin, and to some extent that could've related to my preference for type matching that pattern. That could've happened again. I'm interpreting my impression as an objective assessment of style (match to standard type) and quality instead, but the themes and impression range can mix, to some extent.</p><p>It can be hard to be more specific; just how good were these, on a scale of 1 to 10, in relation to what is selling in mainstream outlets of other types at different pricing, etc. I think the Da Hong Pao would be as good as what higher volume outlets (or smaller vendors too) sell for 40 cents per gram or so, if their value was good. Market-style online outlets might carry more versions that aren't quite that good, with this equating to their higher end range. </p><p>It's harder to say for the Shui Xian; the style is less common and less familiar. Pricing might run slightly higher due to novelty. I don't think this is an uncommon type or form, at this point, but it does seem like it's a type and presentation that has evolved relatively recently, at least related to Western exposure, to the extent types like Da Hong Pao and the Dan Cong and Tie Guan Yin ranges have been available. The quality and aspects weren't as appealing for this version as the other, but it is a more novel style.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-50843912569120551862024-02-19T02:08:00.000-08:002024-02-19T05:30:35.208-08:00Mao Feng material white tea and Wang Put Tan Thai shou mei<p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi41RaTTJOJNWf2yuHyawBNksA6bGVLmc8_RjTBC1DPq8iiVmWlQobqggY4vmzfA1ulXi9fKfMejE3H4VROlUNxIq6sXj6vg6r-D6eNUzWq6u5mKJ3i8Tgbs_pzu0o6MovYaqu45HKhZBJqVX3pBpnG2ChwOtKXik1xeyN_zN0r5MdPladTt60n47t16IEB/s995/white%20tea%20comparison,%20Mao%20Feng%20and%20Wang%20Put%20Than%20IMG_20240217_100155.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="746" data-original-width="995" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi41RaTTJOJNWf2yuHyawBNksA6bGVLmc8_RjTBC1DPq8iiVmWlQobqggY4vmzfA1ulXi9fKfMejE3H4VROlUNxIq6sXj6vg6r-D6eNUzWq6u5mKJ3i8Tgbs_pzu0o6MovYaqu45HKhZBJqVX3pBpnG2ChwOtKXik1xeyN_zN0r5MdPladTt60n47t16IEB/w640-h480/white%20tea%20comparison,%20Mao%20Feng%20and%20Wang%20Put%20Than%20IMG_20240217_100155.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>Thai Wang Put Tan white left, Huang Shan right</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p>An online contact has been describing positive experiences in exploring Chinese teas for awhile, Dylan Conroy, of the small online vending outlet, <a href="https://sweetestdew.com/">The Sweetest Dew</a>. This post is mostly a tea review, but to me that backstory is also interesting, so let's go into that first.</p><p>He explores culture and tea, which he sells, but the balance seems to relate more to exploration than profit. That's not completely unheard of.</p><p>We have been discussing Qimen; that has been his previous main focus, in another area. His "About Me" sales site section probably explains it better than my memory of earlier discussion:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>"Some call him the Qimen Jesus, some others "the maofeng guy", but he prefers Dylan. Yup, simple ol' Dylan from Brooklyn...</b></p><p><b>I studied Mao Feng in Huang Shan, Yan Cha in Wuyi Shan and now Bi Luo Chun in Suzhou. This focused approach to finding teas not only allows me to find the best teas of each category, but to gain a deep understanding of the tea as I do...</b></p><p><b>The Sweetest Dew is not just a way to sell tea, it's a record of my journey in tea, in China and in Life. </b></p><div><br /></div><div>He is also on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/thesweetestdew/">Instagram </a>and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@brooklynslider">YouTube</a>. </div><div><br /></div><div>He sent this white tea version and also Qimen to try, which I'll get to later. I'm comparison reviewing this version described here along with a Thai white tea version:</div><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://sweetestdew.com/products/huang-shan-mao-feng-white-tea">Huang Shan Mao Feng White Tea</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>This white tea is made with the traditional Mao Feng cultivar. It is subtle and but still has the vegetal nuttiness of a Mao Feng Green tea. The body is soft and fuzzy showing that the drying was done very well. This tea is honestly on par with Fu Ding Shou Meis. </b></p><p><b>This is a new tea so we don't know how the flavors will develop as it ages. You can be one of the first to try it. </b></p><p><br /></p><p>It lists for 913 baht for 50 grams, a bit under $30 (there must be a way to change that listed currency). That's a bit for white tea, but if it's exceptional that's still fair, and since I'm writing this after trying it I can confirm that it definitely is unique and very positive. Dylan is helping a friend / local contact by selling her tea as well, with her story on a different page:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Hello! I am Jing, a post-80s generation, and my current job is to share the good tea from my hometown. I was born in a mountain village in She County, Huangshan, Anhui. My hometown is a very beautiful place, with a forest coverage rate of 80%, and the environment and soil are both beautiful. It is very suitable for the growth of tea trees. My family also has several acres of tea mountains. I have grown up smelling the fragrance of tea and drinking tea in tea mountains and tea factories since I was a child, so I have a strong affection for tea..</b>. </p><p><b>The subtle taste and aroma of the tea leaves in each tea mountain are different. I like to use a cup of tea to feel the charm of a mountain. If you also like to drink tea, then taste the fresh fragrance of the vegetation thousands of miles away from my tea.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>That sounds nice, that area, background, and perspective. </p><p>On with describing the tea then, along with a Thai white version that my friend Huyen shared with me a couple of weeks ago while visiting from Vietnam. It's from <a href="https://www.wangputtan.com/about-us">the Wang Put Than plantation</a>, one of the main half dozen producers, maybe, or else maybe I just keep hearing about them even though they're not that, in relation to production volume. They market themselves as a producer who also emphasizes tea tourism, visiting their plantation, and maybe they do that well enough that their name keeps coming up.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj-9xlBPVxtaJ_uxLIZYv473yzc6eC8ARRiVZSCBXq2mDzowNj1EJP3hpsNVk4ljTFt7oKPO7_MFetlV7T1TvlVDx_Kznd6X456ieWLg2ZpAWyx-RWuTQkPZoKnD9aKGRkjPVOQiKkdZUQ6YQayzVX8uFE-kniD5bvEQjlFup8tUrygFQ-ozZkYK2Xt4OVB/s995/Thai%20and%20Chinese%20White%20teas%201.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="746" data-original-width="995" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj-9xlBPVxtaJ_uxLIZYv473yzc6eC8ARRiVZSCBXq2mDzowNj1EJP3hpsNVk4ljTFt7oKPO7_MFetlV7T1TvlVDx_Kznd6X456ieWLg2ZpAWyx-RWuTQkPZoKnD9aKGRkjPVOQiKkdZUQ6YQayzVX8uFE-kniD5bvEQjlFup8tUrygFQ-ozZkYK2Xt4OVB/w640-h480/Thai%20and%20Chinese%20White%20teas%201.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Thai Wang Put Tan shou mei (2021):</b> subtle; that can happen. I gave this a 20 second or so infusion time but it's not a lot of leaf, maybe only 4 grams or so. I'll bump timing next round. These teas can't really overbrew, for sure.</p><p>It's hard to isolate much more for flavors or character; not all that much is coming through just yet. It seems pleasant, sweet, creamy, with rich flavors, maybe including a touch of caramel or toffee. What does come across is nice, this just needs to be brewed stronger.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Huang Shan Mao Feng material Chinese white: </b> that offers a little more. A light vegetal range gives it some intensity, just not much yet, combined with sweet floral tones. A bit of spice joins the rest, in the general cinnamon range. The vegetal range isn't heavy, like celery or green bean or the like, more a scent of fresh tree leaves in the spring.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg_aigBxAACOM7-oiDeFy25hdvTWKn0AH0k_wSAfD0jM0iV8XZDqeHwD3TCmBI-b2LPKru2-HnRltISowDY4UCtslWuyjiFvOufv-fiWoWQdKfUAMoNN6spjrsxKzmRrLA14NEwFfDuwdKGKoJpqE7_BagkJSA5DmqAJdTgMv3WovDdkFYd7i3mmuU4OGbM/s995/Thai%20and%20Chinese%20White%20teas%202.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="746" data-original-width="995" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg_aigBxAACOM7-oiDeFy25hdvTWKn0AH0k_wSAfD0jM0iV8XZDqeHwD3TCmBI-b2LPKru2-HnRltISowDY4UCtslWuyjiFvOufv-fiWoWQdKfUAMoNN6spjrsxKzmRrLA14NEwFfDuwdKGKoJpqE7_BagkJSA5DmqAJdTgMv3WovDdkFYd7i3mmuU4OGbM/w640-h480/Thai%20and%20Chinese%20White%20teas%202.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Wang Put Tan, round 2: </b> an interesting range of flavors pick up. A creaminess comes across, but that's not a main flavor. There is cinnamon spice in this too, but it's also more a supporting aspect. That flavor that stands out is probably really a set. One main part is along the line of root beer, that root spice input. Sweetness does take on a pleasant character, like light toffee. </p><p>It's evident from the leaf color that this is considerably more oxidized, and that comes out in that slight warm tone. It's all fairly subtle still, even for the 50 or so second infusion time, but it's quite pleasant.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Huang Shan white:</b> now this really hits, not so different than last round but at double the intensity. That same list kind of works: sweetness, vague fresh floral range, some degree of vegetal input, but a light and pleasant version of that, maybe towards fennel, sweet, light, and fresh. There isn't a heavy spice input but a touch of cinnamon balances the rest, or that really could be a different spice input that only reminds me of cinnamon, that is somewhat similar. </p><p>These are so different that it's odd asking which is better, but why not go there. Preference would dictate that kind of judgment, or someone could ask a different question, which seems like a higher quality version within the style it's made in. Perhaps for both this Chinese tea edges out the other Thai version. The higher intensity is more pleasant, and additional complexity, and more novel flavor aspect set. I can try to isolate feel and aftertaste more in a next round, since these also tie in to overall effect and to quality level. </p><p>The Thai tea is still nice, just not quite as complex, intense, and interesting as the other. This Chinese version bridging so much varying flavor aspect range is really novel, and it all integrates well.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgL_-hg4xtZLPQxrgS8BSRBu6hGXpUSGI5FYzgGxmq2pmBpIZUPm275nS90NTEss3kAuxoC7QVlPZXl2TMCqxY5oDDBRL1bRLIQXJyUcev3_LrXR03EPLpCqrSP4kxWBXAO33IMuCPQuswsntfIAe8Gxnd44BHPjP8NXlAabXK97t-L1WvAxPB6QvXtMJXR/s995/Thai%20and%20Chinese%20White%20teas%203.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="746" data-original-width="995" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgL_-hg4xtZLPQxrgS8BSRBu6hGXpUSGI5FYzgGxmq2pmBpIZUPm275nS90NTEss3kAuxoC7QVlPZXl2TMCqxY5oDDBRL1bRLIQXJyUcev3_LrXR03EPLpCqrSP4kxWBXAO33IMuCPQuswsntfIAe8Gxnd44BHPjP8NXlAabXK97t-L1WvAxPB6QvXtMJXR/w640-h480/Thai%20and%20Chinese%20White%20teas%203.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Wang Put Tan, #3:</b> creaminess stands out again; that part is pleasant. Warm flavor tones are also nice. Intensity is a limitation though; even for using a 45-50 second infusion time this doesn't taste like all that much. What is there, a bit of toffee, a hint of spice, and maybe some other warm tone adding context, is fine, it's good. Feel is fine, just not thick or pronounced. </p><p><br /></p><p><b>Huang Shan white:</b> vegetal range shifts, the green leaf effect. It still tastes a little like fennel, but a faint edge picks up. It would be bitterness if it was much stronger, so it's really not that, as we tend to typically perceive flavors, even if it is actually that. It's like the scent of a dried oak or maple leaf, which are of course things we tend to not actually eat or taste. It's quite good. There is still the rest there, some limited spice, good sweetness, non-distinct floral range. Both of these aren't full in feel like oolongs more often are but not thin either. Overall balance is good. </p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions / later rounds:</h3><p><br /></p><p>I tried both for a few more rounds, brewing a couple more quite strong. The Thai version stayed remarkably similar, not changing much at all. The Chinese white was quite positive for a couple of more infusions, and picked up a woody aspect note that wasn't really negative, it balanced ok with the rest.</p><p>I am evaluating the Huang Shan version much more positively here in the aspects list description, and the quality just seemed that much better. And novelty; this was a style experiment, it seemed, trying out making white tea from green tea producing material, and to me it went well. Probably this Chinese tea is selling for at least twice the cost of the Thai version (although I didn't see a sales listing for it), and for the most part that would seem fair to me, it really is a bit different.</p><p>What about commentary on that broad divide in oxidation level, or probably earlier aging input, or later aging potential? The Chinese version was probably made in a much lighter style, not allowed to oxidize much at all during processing. It suited the material; the outcome was quite positive. Probably the opposite was true for the Thai tea, and they let it wither for a good bit longer, to draw out an oxidation input. I liked that tea too, which does seem to be within the general range of shou mei, so maybe both decisions were appropriate.</p><p>I doubt that the three years of prior aging (the 2021 origin date for the Thai tea) had caused all or even most of that oxidation level difference. Teas can age pretty fast in Thailand, in a hot and humid place, but I'd guess they made it to intentionally have a running start on browning, and changing to warmer toned character. Once tea versions pick up a touch of cinnamon, as that had, that seems really nice. </p><p>The minor differences in intensity and complexity were something else; I would guess that material quality factored in, that the producer who made the Chinese white was starting with better leaf material. And it seems that quite simple processing led to a positive result.</p><p>Aging either wouldn't seem to make sense, for two different reasons. The Thai tea lacks intensity, and aging typically swaps out early intensity and fresh flavors for more warmth and depth. The Huang Shan version is very pleasant bright and fresh like that; it would seem a shame to give that up. </p><p>I like white teas, even though in the past I've been critical of versions that lack flavor intensity and complexity. If the bit that's there is positive you can always push the tea, brew it hot, and for a bit longer, or bump proportion, and if there just isn't much to offer even that won't work. The Thai version was good, and the other didn't need to be stretched.</p><p>It would be nice if I could push a step further, and compare both of these to the same material being produced as different styles, as Jing mentioned in her intro part that I cited. I've tried Mao Feng green tea but I'm definitely not the right person for that. </p><p>It's interesting looking back on that section and seeing the claim that this white tea is on par with Fuding shou mei versions. It's a good bit better than most of the standard commercial versions I've tried, but really it would need to be evaluated against a higher tier version range, not what ends up being pressed and sold as cakes that cost very little, the white tea equivalent of factory pu'er (which can be ok; I don't mean that as a slur). It's good, but I'm not familiar with how it would compare to well above average quality versions, since I'm not familiar with boutique production Fuding shou mei.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-14768795551048490692024-02-11T02:15:00.000-08:002024-02-11T02:24:57.731-08:00Are slimming tea products unethical?<p> </p><p>It seems strange asking and answering this question; all of this was sorted out and overdone years ago, and has went quiet since. A new producer brings it all up again.</p><p><br /></p><p>I'll start with the short answer, or at least my take: <b>yes, slimming tea products are unethical.</b> </p><p>At least in the most common form they occur in. Exceptions are possible; that's a lot of what I'm discussing here.</p><p><br /></p><p>The main theme is using "real tea," or just other herbal ingredients, to serve as a laxative and diuretic, to cause people to lose water weight and speed up bowel movement processing. Both will cause a temporary weight loss effect, but neither is "slimming" in the sense of helping someone lose body fat, the main intended meaning. Both are relatively unhealthy, since maintaining normal digestion and appropriate hydration level is more optimum, and adjusting and disrupting these is less healthy.</p><p>What about a stimulant effect; couldn't that help with weight loss? Yes, to a limited extent. Caffeine already is a stimulant, present in every kind of "real tea," camellia sinensis based versions, and adding more of that, or that plus some other stimulant, is probably not a good idea. It doesn't really work to speed up metabolism to lose weight anyway; it's far superior to adjust diet inputs, to ingest less calories.</p><p><br /></p><p>I can easily enough explain why that is. I run a good bit, 10 km / 6.4 miles per outing, three times a week (typically), for a total of 20 miles or 30 km per week. According to a tracking app that burns about 600 calories per outing, towards 2000 per week; that's a good start. But it's not hard at all to eat an extra 600 calories per day, and certainly not 300, working back to a weekly average. Revving up metabolism an equivalent amount through stimulants lands on the same result, that it's not helpful unless daily dietary intake and expenditure balance. </p><p>If medium-high exercise for three hours a week "only" burns up an additional 2000 calories, or about that, stacking an extra stimulant on top of ingesting caffeine would need to make a significant difference--and have potentially significant negative side effects--to achieve the same outcome. Then eating or otherwise consuming an extra 300 calories per day would be easy; it's not that much. Two cans of Coke is close to that (278); you could just drink that input daily.</p><p><br /></p><p>So as I see it people creating, marketing, and selling "slimming tea" versions are more or less selling snake oil. At best the products wouldn't do much, and at worst laxative and diuretic effect or stimulant input would be quite negative. </p><p>Caffeine is already a diuretic too, beyond being a stimulant, so ordinary tea already covers that. People's experience of side effects vary, so not everyone would agree with that, and it requires a significant daily dose to cause that effect (water loss), but a daily recommended limit of 400 mg of caffeine will cause water loss for most people. Taking even more diuretic is not a good idea; temporarily losing water weight isn't helpful.</p><p>Some people might feel that they retain too much water, and feel bloated, so it would be good for them. An easy way to offset this is to limit intake of compounds that cause increased water retention, particularly salt (sodium). Or drinking more tea could help, and adding a bit more caffeine, which is a bit counter-intuitive, since that's ingesting more water as well. Tea is said to contain between 25 and 40 mg of caffeine per a standard 8 ounce cup (250 ml, more or less), so brewed a bit strong it might take 10 cups to ingest that standard daily limit of 400 mg, the same as in four cups of coffee (on average). 80 ounces of tea is well over 2 quarts / liters; depending on the diuretic effect experienced someone might not need to add more water to compensate, but given how it can speed up water loss some people would.</p><p>I'm not claiming that maxing out caffeine intake is definitely a good idea, to speed up metabolism and get diuretic effect to really kick in. I typically drink about 8 grams worth of tea a day, intentionally keeping that moderate, which I expect might amount to around 240 mg total (maybe less), down to 220 or less since extraction rate isn't 100%. Long term effects are impossible to predict, so to me practicing moderation makes sense, related to essentially everything we consume.</p><p>Back to the specific starting point, the ethics issue.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">A new slimming tea product</h3><div><br /></div><div>It's <a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61555630366446">this product</a>, last discussed by the developers <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/gongfucha/permalink/6318643208238662/">in this tea group post</a>:</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg4o5-cTIN2TQywcuKPoC33Zv3XYqlcnb2L92-oLol1Byr6lN87ejOyrPZRaYxKd5bq3apX5qD-7KnVUqf_pIMYIJJaAbOpGBkbJI-FsM64o7C27IKdvKQOBoi5ZFvMri0Jn6QjKvnkr_g6r5Io_9_bjyn6jl5viAoxZdkmjq00DbefgmTFQKj7cpsI83sY/s1567/slim%20brew%202.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1567" data-original-width="1080" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg4o5-cTIN2TQywcuKPoC33Zv3XYqlcnb2L92-oLol1Byr6lN87ejOyrPZRaYxKd5bq3apX5qD-7KnVUqf_pIMYIJJaAbOpGBkbJI-FsM64o7C27IKdvKQOBoi5ZFvMri0Jn6QjKvnkr_g6r5Io_9_bjyn6jl5viAoxZdkmjq00DbefgmTFQKj7cpsI83sY/w442-h640/slim%20brew%202.jpg" width="442" /></a></div><br /><div><br /></div><p>Oddly that post is about discussing potential product names, and they've already set up the vending page with the product name and some marketing content, so that seems odd, and perhaps not completely genuine.</p><p>What is it they're discussing, or selling? That's not clear yet. They've implied it's based on pu'er tea, but there are no product details out yet. Maybe that plus a diuretic and laxative, the most conventional earlier form. Maybe something else. It seems unlikely that they might incorporate a formerly unknown herbal input that really helps with weight loss, but I suppose it's not inconceivable.</p><p> </p><p>About that, <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2023/11/roasted-papaya-seeds-as-coffee.html">I wrote not so long ago</a> about how brewing ground up papaya seeds extracts a compound that suppresses fat digestion. That's not so far off the theme of an earlier supplement that did the same, which was embraced and then universally rejected for changing the consistency of the subject's stool in a negative way, making it loose and oily. That's covered in <a href="https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-depth/alli/art-20047908">the Mayo Clinic's summary of Orlistat functions, benefits, and side effects</a>. This problem stands out:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>These side effects include:</b></p><p><b>Stomach pain or upset stomach</b></p><p><b>Oily discharge from the anus...</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Yeah, no. </p><p>For sure other compounds and herbs out there support weight loss, but there is no magic fix, or it would already be on the market. Interfering with digestion is an interesting twist, seemingly more promising than stimulant effect, if an input version didn't have such problematic side effects. Hunger suppression, the effect underpinning the latest Ozempic / Semaglutide craze, is also promising.</p><p><br /></p><p>Since we can't evaluate or critique the weight loss effect or mechanism of their product, which may or may not exist in a final form yet, let's at least consider something seemingly similar, a pu'er based weight loss support product that adds herbs to support that function, <a href="https://purasana.com/en/tea/pu-erh-tea-20-sachets">Purasana Pu'er Tea Fat Burner</a>.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiz5oV-SwLJD7MQPiCnX0bT_ik_0Q23R_XjB5xzO1e78pqmbCM-DTsVTnIbBuMDDbmqJ_arTrzbQUy94kWA_6pkgVARwycX0CsifvZNEAG2wZeSo5_tVaJn3rp6UGSdoCajxXpYf4TUvYuO5g1Ux7BAa2OEMpEsN8s7ByrzobpuDJnkb8bXksxGWYS6xeSS/s500/Purasana%20fat%20burner%20tea.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="500" data-original-width="500" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiz5oV-SwLJD7MQPiCnX0bT_ik_0Q23R_XjB5xzO1e78pqmbCM-DTsVTnIbBuMDDbmqJ_arTrzbQUy94kWA_6pkgVARwycX0CsifvZNEAG2wZeSo5_tVaJn3rp6UGSdoCajxXpYf4TUvYuO5g1Ux7BAa2OEMpEsN8s7ByrzobpuDJnkb8bXksxGWYS6xeSS/w640-h640/Purasana%20fat%20burner%20tea.png" width="640" /></a></div><p><b>Ingredients: Pu-erh tea (Camellia sinensis), peppermint (Mentha piperata), hibiscus flower (Hibiscus sabdariffa), goldenrod (Solidago virgaurea), rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis)</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>They claim that goldenrod and rosemary are the "effective ingredients," in that sales page content, or sort of just imply that. If rosemary made a lot of difference for weight loss people would already be making tea from that. I have before, many times; it's pleasant. I didn't lose weight drinking it.</p><p><a href="https://www.uvm.edu/news/extension/goldenrod-useful-wildflower">According to this reference</a> goldenrod, which can refer to differing plant types, is a set of flowering plants used as an herb tea / tisane in early US colonial times. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidago">Wikipedia</a> mentions this background and these uses:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Traditional medicine</b></p><p><b>Solidago virgaurea is used in a traditional kidney tonic by practitioners of herbal medicine to counter inflammation and irritation caused by bacterial infections or kidney stones.[43][44] Goldenrod is also used in some formulas for cleansing of the kidney or bladder during a healing fast, in conjunction with potassium broth and specific juices.[44] Some Native American cultures traditionally chew the leaves to relieve sore throats, and the roots to relieve toothaches.[28]</b></p><p><b>Medicinal exploration</b></p><p><b>In various assessments by the European Medicines Agency with respect to Solidago virgaurea, non-clinical data shows <span style="background-color: red;">diuretic</span>, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, analgesic and spasmolytic, antibacterial, antifungal, anticancer and immunomodulatory activity...</b></p><p><br /></p><p>So it could be quite helpful in different uses, but is probably being utilized here as a diuretic. Note that weight loss is not included in this substantial list of potential benefits. Maybe another reference can add to that, <a href="https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/herb/goldenrod">like this Mount Sinai hospital database record</a>:</p><p><br /></p><h4 style="text-align: left;"><b>Medicinal Uses and Indications</b></h4><p><b>Goldenrod may act as a <span style="background-color: red;">diuretic</span>, meaning it flushes water from the body by increasing urine output. It may also reduce inflammation. However, it has not really been studied in humans.</b></p><p><b>Goldenrod is sometimes suggested for the following conditions:</b></p><p><b>Arthritis and gout</b></p><p><b>Allergies</b></p><p><b>Colds and flu</b></p><p><b>Inflammation of the bladder or urinary tract</b></p><p><b>Kidney stones</b></p><p><b>Eczema (applied to the skin)</b></p><p><b>Minor wounds (applied to the skin)</b></p><p><br /></p><p>In that first Wikipedia citation they stated that "<b><i>non-clinical data</i></b> shows diuretic, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant..." (properties / benefits), aligning these two inputs. It's probably good for you, but that second source warns against taking it with any other compounds that have a diuretic effect, since it has such a strong related effect itself.</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>Diuretics (water pills): Goldenrod may make diuretics stronger, raising the risk of dehydration.</b></p><p><b>...Other drugs: Due to its diuretic action, goldenrod may interact with any medication that is processed through the kidneys and urine.</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>So Purasana Puerh Tea Fat Burner seems unlikely to actually help with burning fat, since pu'er and those other common herbs don't support that (most likely, to a significant degree), but it will cause water weight loss.</p><p><br /></p><p>But first let's back up a bit; maybe rosemary really can support weight loss, and I'm just unaware of that. I had just set that aside as clearly absurd, but let's check, here: <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7491497/">Therapeutic effects of rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis L.) and its active constituents on nervous system disorders</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis L.) is an evergreen bushy shrub which grows along the Mediterranean Sea, and sub-Himalayan areas. In folk medicine, it has been used as an antispasmodic, mild analgesic, to cure intercostal neuralgia, headaches, migraine, insomnia emotional upset, and depression. Different investigations have highlighted rosemary neuropharmacological properties as their main topics. </b></p><p><b>Rosemary has significant antimicrobial, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidant, anti-apoptotic, anti-tumorigenic, antinociceptive, and neuroprotective properties. Furthermore, it shows important clinical effects on mood, learning, memory, pain, anxiety, and sleep. The aim of the current work is to review the potential neuropharmacological effects of different rosemary extracts and its active constituents on nervous system disorders, their relevant mechanisms and its preclinical application to recall the therapeutic potential of this herb and more directions of future research projects...</b></p><p><br /></p><p>The focus of the following research review isn't on all potential health benefits, but this summary and the following outline of context doesn't list weight loss as any traditionally observed potential benefit:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Rosemary, Rosmarinus officinalis L. (Labiatae) has been used in folk medicine to alleviate several diseases including headache, dysmenorrhea, stomachache, epilepsy, rheumatic pain, spasms, nervous agitation, improvement of memory, hysteria, depression, as well as physical and mental fatigue (5, 6)... . </b></p><p><b>Recently, noticeable scientific interest is focused on the beneficial therapeutic properties of different kinds of rosemary extracts and its main constituents, such as carnosic acid, carnosol, rosmarinic acid, etc. A large number of studies either on animal models or cultured cells indicate the wide range medicinal properties of rosemary and its compounds such as anti-inflammatory (8, 9), anti-oxidant (10), antinociceptive (11), neuroprotective (12), antidepressant, anti-hysteric, ameliorative of memory and mental fatigue (13-15) (Figure 1)...</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Why was it added to a weight loss support product then? Who knows, but it sounds positive enough, related to so many other effects. Maybe it helps prevent the pu'er from wrecking your stomach. That only makes sense if it's sheng pu'er, since shou is the least impactful type of tea, and one other point that comes up in a later source indicates shou might be a better match for this kind of product.</p><p>That's a dozen or so very positive effects, from these two herbs. Would you really recognize all these benefits? Probably not, based on minute dosage inputs of these and pu'er along with two other herbs. If the diuretic effect of goldenrod is strong enough that plus caffeine may have an impact.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Back to ethics</h3><p><br /></p><p>Is it really unethical to sell these products based on health claims that seem dubious at best? I think so, but it's a judgement call.</p><p>Drinking only pu'er, without any herbs, could support weight loss, if someone was replacing drinking soda, but that's not part of any "slimming tea" product claims. Water works for that.</p><p>What if there was more to it? What if they, the two younger American-Chinese business founders, were in on some sort of specialized knowledge? That is part of the claim, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/926123064146063/permalink/7100335550058086/">outlined in this earlier link</a>:</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>Hey Pu'er Tea Club members,</b></p><p><b>I’m Erik, and together with my sister Angela, we’re embarking on a fascinating journey inspired by our family's deep-rooted connection to tea.</b></p><p><b>Growing up, our family's move from China to the U.S. greatly influenced our perspective on tea. It became more than a beverage; it was a bridge between cultures and eras. Our dad has spent years researching the health aspects of tea, particularly focusing on a compound in Pu'er tea known as theabrownin. His findings even made their way into the Nature Journal, an awesome achievement!</b></p><p><b>This sparked in us a desire to explore how we could blend our love for traditional Pu'er tea with modern health concepts. While we're in the early stages of conceptualizing a venture around this idea, our primary goal is to learn and grow within this space...</b></p><p><br /></p><p>So could they be identifying a health benefit from a known compound, theabrownin, present in high levels in some pu'er (mostly shou, it seems), and then creating a product around that? Maybe, but probably not, since if that's all that is happening someone could just drink the pu'er, any similar range version. </p><p>As a related aside, it's not uncommon for research in some countries to be sponsored by commercial interests, for paid support to lead directly to health claims findings that can be used for marketing. Even if that hadn't been the starting point context anyone can drink pu'er, and for sure this will end up being another tea and herbs blend, with either laxative or diuretic properties, or both. Or it would be nice if that's not the case.</p><p><br /></p><p>Let's consider what theabrownin is all about anyway. Google search brings up this study as the first result: <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1756464622000111">Theabrownin modulates the gut microbiome and serum metabolome in aging mice induced by D-galactose</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Theabrownin (TB) is a complex oxidized polyphenol formed during the microbial fermentation of Pu-erh tea. It offers some health benefits such as weight loss, blood glucose reduction, and oxidation resistance; however, the anti-aging effect and the related mechanism have not yet been explored. In this study, symptoms of aging were induced in mice using D-galactose. Morris water maze test, hematoxylin-eosin staining, 16S rDNA high-throughput sequencing, and UHPLC-QE-MS metabolomics were used to reveal the anti-aging effects and potential mechanism of TB...</b></p><p><br /></p><p>So they just throw it out there that of course it supports weight loss, but they're on to reviewing anti-aging potential in that work. Maybe that's why I look so young (but I drink young sheng the most?). The background is clear on what they're looking into, but the part about it relating to ripe or shou pu'er isn't promising to me though, as a sheng drinker:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Pu-erh tea is a traditional, historically famous tea from Yunnan, China, made from sun-dried green tea of large-leaf tea trees (Camellia sinensis var. assamica) by microbial solid-state fermentation (Liang et al., 2005, Zhao et al., 2010). It has a unique flavor, full-bodied aroma, outstanding aging aroma, and is a bright red soup with a mellow taste. TB is one of the essential active ingredients of Pu-erh tea. The content of TB in Pu-erh ripe tea can reach 16.86%, which is the primary color substance of Pu-erh ripe tea and plays a decisive role in its quality and function (Qin et al., 2009)...</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>[in later conclusions]...Drinking Pu-erh ripe tea can produce a variety of metabolic changes in the human body that are linked to the intestinal flora. Therefore, it is suggested that drinking pu-erh tea may change and adjust the structure of intestinal flora (Qasim, Aziz, Rasheed, Gul, & Khan, 2016)...</b></p><p><br /></p><p>The linked claims here seem clear enough: shou pu'er supports healthy digestion function, which carries over to a range of benefits, all the way to supporting longevity and mental health in later life. How this ties to weight loss isn't clear in this paper; maybe that's a completely unrelated additional positive effect. Maybe well-aged sheng could mirror this compound inclusion and final effect; that would all be the subject of another study. </p><p>One more aside, they were using Dayi shou for the tests; nice. Some aged CNNP / Zhong Cha would also be pleasant, but it's good that it worked using a newer version "(<b>label No.7262, batch No.1801, produced on July 5, 2018</b>)." With that published in February 2022 it had probably had a few years to lose that early funky character, which I can't imagine changes the weight loss or anti-aging effects.</p><p><br /></p><p>It's not inconceivable that some mix of shou pu'er and herbs could provide some new set of inputs and effects, even though I've been skeptical of that being remotely possible in this discussion. It would really only be possible to question or dismiss any specific set of claims based on product information and review of related effects from ingredient inputs.</p><p>If those entrepreneurs turned up some supposedly traditional Chinese tea and herb blend recipe said to cause weight loss I would still be skeptical, but that couldn't be automatically dismissed. The Indian Ayurvedic tradition seems to draw on those themes in a parallel way, on a mix of herb inputs or foods accomplishing what any one alone does not cause. That does seem to be what Traditional Chinese Medicine was always about, combining a range of supporting inputs, not this one-to-one cause and effect sort of sequence that we focus on more in "the West," in terms of supplements, medicine, and other health inputs.</p><p>The only claim and background communicated so far relates to modern, relatively Western-style research study, and from the little I've reviewed, or that they have mentioned. It only relates to drinking fermented / shou pu'er, somewhat explicitly, but even that is indirect. Even if shou does happen to cause weight loss drinking Dayi already covers that, or any standard source brand. If this new product is just shou pu'er with extra herbs to function as a diuretic and laxative it will follow the prior pattern, and won't be worth much consideration.</p><p>I hope that it's not that, that they create something novel, interesting, and useful.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-69534823549688510182024-02-05T03:53:00.000-08:002024-02-05T03:53:31.369-08:00Tracking heart rate while running in Bangkok heat<p> </p><p>I'm not sure who a run training update would be interesting for or helpful to, which is why I don't write these very often. I'm not sharing results on Strava or anything like that either, racing, or running with friends, so I just keep doing it to exercise, as my own thing.</p><p>Trying out tracking heart rate is the newest thing. I suppose what seemed like a minor injury back in October or so had been the newest thing earlier; I never knew what to make of that. A knee issue seemed inconsistent, as if tendons were sore in different places, maybe moving around because the real cause of the problem was elsewhere, a glute or hip stabilizer muscle issue. Who knows what it was.</p><p>After resolving that through rest and time off, and building moderate intensity weekly mileage back up, to about 30 km per week now, I tried out using a very basic heart rate monitor. </p><p>It's not so uncommon for people to use low heartrate training as a main approach, to calculate some relative low-intensity optimum, and then instead of running miles or km at a set pace to keep heart rate consistent. That was never the plan; I was mostly just curious what it was. It seemed interesting to be able to see how heart rate varied with pace, and effort level, and if heat stress seemed to be affecting that factor. Then later maybe it could be a factor in changing approach.</p><p>It all worked out as one might expect; a very moderate running pace corresponds to 130 to 135 bpm, and running at higher intensity and a faster pace tops out around 145 to 150. It seems that related to pace the window spanning the two is not that far apart. It takes me a lot of effort to run 6 minute kilometers now, even though I had trained to run some of them between 5:30 and 5:45 a year ago. That was in Honolulu, Hawaii, where it's cooler, with some elevation change on my normal route. There I could run the 11th and 12th consecutive kilometers at 5:45 on a warm afternoon along a flat course, and in slightly warmer local Bangkok weather now that would be hard.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">running alternate intensity 10k at 30 C (86 F)</h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjsQqlXLXZsHTFMeI8eUKnch7jcTg0V03lEkspZYeu5ZhduSWQwZiZbdIbW_fiVj8i7gnvU39RMrCiJqb3rj6N4bKwo_RS_DyZJ2vea4OYRK8qURiPilSFyrUR21yfTuBqp9bJNXiGFMof3UpUT6u42pnuU3ynYJoC7JYUWR8kTk6vqylNQHKhPxCaCgrHQ/s1386/run%20capture%20edit.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1386" data-original-width="1080" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjsQqlXLXZsHTFMeI8eUKnch7jcTg0V03lEkspZYeu5ZhduSWQwZiZbdIbW_fiVj8i7gnvU39RMrCiJqb3rj6N4bKwo_RS_DyZJ2vea4OYRK8qURiPilSFyrUR21yfTuBqp9bJNXiGFMof3UpUT6u42pnuU3ynYJoC7JYUWR8kTk6vqylNQHKhPxCaCgrHQ/w498-h640/run%20capture%20edit.jpg" width="498" /></a></div><div><br /></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEivOClRoNhxxbuhHBp-AduHiXUyafvlMaYoOLzRNMPV2Z1MsNldKiq6Xeh2nVdgWC_QOUB1FIm9Aybs_0FkVEX-0JAQ7QMMGivxasfru76MGlAUdXFgov86e5a-WgQewnQ04JGPkVa5cDwWpZrgaTeVhyphenhyphenSv6LooJbdZknbOOI9L77JKGZVEtw92l4b9KzIv/s1479/run%20hr%20capture%20edit.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1479" data-original-width="1080" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEivOClRoNhxxbuhHBp-AduHiXUyafvlMaYoOLzRNMPV2Z1MsNldKiq6Xeh2nVdgWC_QOUB1FIm9Aybs_0FkVEX-0JAQ7QMMGivxasfru76MGlAUdXFgov86e5a-WgQewnQ04JGPkVa5cDwWpZrgaTeVhyphenhyphenSv6LooJbdZknbOOI9L77JKGZVEtw92l4b9KzIv/w468-h640/run%20hr%20capture%20edit.jpg" width="468" /></a></div><div><br /></div><br /><p>These both show a new form that I'm trying out, running an easy 5k followed without break by a higher effort, faster 5k.</p><p>There isn't all that much training theory behind that. It combines easing into a session and sustaining some higher intensity running. The humidity and temperature shift how that kind of thing goes; at a hotter and more humid time maintaining "low" heart rate (135) even at the moderate pace wouldn't work. It's essentially always in the mid to upper 80s F / upper 20s C in Bangkok, unless you run at 6 AM, and since I'm not a morning person I just try to avoid the low 90s / low to mid 30s C. I can show how that goes in another stats capture, but I'll add a little about how this workout version shown in graphs feels first.</p><p>Running at 135 bpm is fairly relaxed, if it's only 29-30 C, mid-80s F. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing; it's my impression that pacing depends on a base level of conditioning, which I'm not qualified to interpret. It's probably not good or bad, instead just where you are at the time.</p><p>Running between 145 and 150 bmp isn't so stressful, but that's as far as I'd want to push it, and sustaining that general level for 5k seems like enough. In the past I would feel a slight breakdown of my normal equilibrium, energy level, and breathing rate, right towards the end of what I had trained to easily do, and that often related to running 10k in about 1:01 to 1:02, a minute or two faster than using this approach. That kind of minor difference stands out a lot; running a 30 minute 5k and a 32 minute pace is completely different. That's the difference between a 6 minute km and a 6:25; it's vast.</p><p>I can switch the units, in case someone reading this runs at min / mile: that's a 9:40 versus 10:20 mile pace (6 to 6:25 min / km). Again whether that is fast or slow depends on someone's conditioning level. Anyone routinely training in much cooler weather probably wouldn't tolerate the heat input part of it well, running at 85 to 90 degrees F, regardless of their normal pace.</p><p><br /></p><p>I always thought it would be easier to train to run faster, much earlier on. I could break 20 minute 5k race times in high school cross country, and I wasn't all that good a runner, and didn't train that much. It turns out that running a 4 minute km / 6:26 mile isn't easy to do at age 55, without prior "training up" to that fitness level. </p><p>I had been experimenting with running shorter intervals faster when that odd injury came up, which is probably no coincidence, so in order to avoid that experience I'll have to forego that most natural training approach to drop those times. If I add some weight training I might become more durable, but I'm not eager to expand training range like that. I had been walking and swimming more a year or so ago when I managed to push both intensity and volume past where it is now; maybe those really did help with recovery, muscle training, or general conditioning level.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">heat impact example; running 7+ k at 31 C (88 F), in the mid-day sun</h3><p><br /></p><p>The other question I had related to the impact of running when it's hotter, when it's not in the mid 80s, but around 90 instead. A recent outing tested that:</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhM9dVSTypoC0fFfVvbQ3nYWVnmkZD-hKBh11xt5OxWEdlo1leqwNiiKIqsuvljk6__-_yoTMB8N8VAqgbVaIrjry1rMpOmddJj25byL6WHp0EazMkl2ljqGbm8JGyReDR6LAzGlKEMxt3ue2TqBXRtLQ1FacbNw-6g-ybT7NrPk9WnnRh0R5znCCC06w6U/s1920/running%20stats,%20Jan%20outing%20merged.jpeg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1080" data-original-width="1920" height="360" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhM9dVSTypoC0fFfVvbQ3nYWVnmkZD-hKBh11xt5OxWEdlo1leqwNiiKIqsuvljk6__-_yoTMB8N8VAqgbVaIrjry1rMpOmddJj25byL6WHp0EazMkl2ljqGbm8JGyReDR6LAzGlKEMxt3ue2TqBXRtLQ1FacbNw-6g-ybT7NrPk9WnnRh0R5znCCC06w6U/w640-h360/running%20stats,%20Jan%20outing%20merged.jpeg" width="640" /></a></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>It really wasn't that hot; on that first run it was 30 C, 86 F, and on this second it was 31, 88 F. The first was in the evening, after dark, and this was in mid-day sun, running between noon and 1 PM, and it really makes a difference. Of course it does, as humidity level and breeze does (or lack of it), but I mean that you can have a completely different kind of experience, not that it's a noticeable slight change. <div><br /></div><div>47% humidity is on the dry side for here; I suppose that helped, but running in direct mid-day sunlight was a more problematic negative input. Those temperatures I've cited are some central Bangkok measurement; I was probably experiencing a broader gap where I actually was, out on a running track / sidewalk environment.<br /><p>On one running course I complete two 5k laps, with no second warm stretch, and on this route I do either 2 or 3 3.7 km segments, with a warm stretch after 1 km. On that second heart rate dip (above, during km 6) I was walking to rest, to drop my heart rate, which had been pegged at or near 150 the whole time. I think that tied to heat stress input, but I haven't fully sorted out other possible variables. It's easy to write off having any rough outing as heat input, but there's probably more to it.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjCyaKaLdCAzJWH1bNQCp1bkD5UqqtLewtbQXEH2311ltZ-bcJOuNOowjbUzQN9cPTg5DYwyaoILnSIEEeA7G9BVOHVtQhtWNkr_V2KRAwIGaAPrwMiNLxQkGYNtZiCqX3Md6vvor5oa6sxy_yW4Vi5BPIYB-DLPX5hxvTTl4A5OeRVGAhFWFTyzsz-0vI2/s1437/Feb%203,%202024%20running%20capture%201.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1437" data-original-width="1080" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjCyaKaLdCAzJWH1bNQCp1bkD5UqqtLewtbQXEH2311ltZ-bcJOuNOowjbUzQN9cPTg5DYwyaoILnSIEEeA7G9BVOHVtQhtWNkr_V2KRAwIGaAPrwMiNLxQkGYNtZiCqX3Md6vvor5oa6sxy_yW4Vi5BPIYB-DLPX5hxvTTl4A5OeRVGAhFWFTyzsz-0vI2/w482-h640/Feb%203,%202024%20running%20capture%201.jpg" width="482" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>a track / path around the local royal palace</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjopoLiM4Ou47HXmG0DvBP0uGfYHI1Oge8M3rztIv5LdElzU6FM91g3J2r2TsYaqpzLthloBm3GBJ_gRyEmXWnkSDVu4kKSyWCPo26Xveh6kvJVEA6nNa5Nv5hGq0rocBCGYPebN4SXl84JnKZThhKGHbg2609_zJ-D4LsPnZf4PC59MltdpqQfzYNTDWKF/s1098/Chitlada%20lit%20up%20at%20night,%20Jan%202024.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="1098" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjopoLiM4Ou47HXmG0DvBP0uGfYHI1Oge8M3rztIv5LdElzU6FM91g3J2r2TsYaqpzLthloBm3GBJ_gRyEmXWnkSDVu4kKSyWCPo26Xveh6kvJVEA6nNa5Nv5hGq0rocBCGYPebN4SXl84JnKZThhKGHbg2609_zJ-D4LsPnZf4PC59MltdpqQfzYNTDWKF/w640-h480/Chitlada%20lit%20up%20at%20night,%20Jan%202024.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>that running path at night, lit up for some holiday or memorial theme</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxHJGrEYb1hpoxs2q3n_9oo56jGpBbnMd7ShZ4o-pFEUe6jjQQJ4oPBUsQi82p83j4ykocseJJeoOWayOurR3kOwWyNG8OChDv3wwvm_LJ9vCwywGRWeUnM3uJtb17MzAkvElHY5HcEsbzX8ETZo8qeD0Z4D099uKKRoi8IQH90jrtWl4n822gFnySR30c/s1123/IMG_20230608_130957.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="842" data-original-width="1123" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxHJGrEYb1hpoxs2q3n_9oo56jGpBbnMd7ShZ4o-pFEUe6jjQQJ4oPBUsQi82p83j4ykocseJJeoOWayOurR3kOwWyNG8OChDv3wwvm_LJ9vCwywGRWeUnM3uJtb17MzAkvElHY5HcEsbzX8ETZo8qeD0Z4D099uKKRoi8IQH90jrtWl4n822gFnySR30c/w640-h480/IMG_20230608_130957.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>what it looks like in the daytime</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><p>One might wonder, how is this informative or actionable, beyond prompting me to try out that split-pace approach? I suppose it's not. I could've felt that the second run described here wasn't going as well without a heart rate stat filling that part in, that I was hot. I was averaging 6:15 km paces, just not on the two one-km splits with a stretch and walking break, so it wasn't really fast or slow, but it was taking effort to do that. The second 5k of that earlier run was slightly faster, right on 6 minutes / km instead, at significantly lower heart rate, just below 145 average instead of close to 150. You can feel that difference.</p><p>It's a different thing running against conditioning level versus pushing heat stress tolerance. You feel a bit tired after an hour of medium intensity running, but that heat stress stays with you, even when only enduring 40 minutes worth of it. I won't do hour long outings when the heat is getting to me; I could back way off a normal pace and tolerate it better (maybe; I never really try running 7 minute km pace), but it's habit to just stay in a normal pace range and call it a day early. If I feel off I'll run 6:30 kilometers but beyond that I tend to just pack it in.</p><p><br /></p><p>Trying out tracking heart rate was only ever about sorting out these patterns, which I had already experienced without tracking that. I can run a 6 minute km, or 6:30, by feel, even with outdoor temperature input factoring in. It's odd that the one is such a fast pace for me and other slow; that distribution could be broader. I think with less heat-stress for running context, actually running when it's below 80 F / 27 C, I could train differently, and make better progress.</p><p><br /></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhViixMEV5fCmF03o8ETP6Oy15nwR9r8EsQfW_0Ll9bvQSPaxUMF2m16Rl3vlbh2OY4BXWiC4P8gzeoLITPikfjonjoRmLYozVOeIopA2y6bx3gg7pS3kAqsu01sFtArcQQ0Ex0iuO52woGzPOHjvdiNDbsxaurehY9Rh02MFEQTqYXDiS56dnELBT3Culd/s1056/Honolulu%20weather,%20Feb%205,%202024.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="783" data-original-width="1056" height="474" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhViixMEV5fCmF03o8ETP6Oy15nwR9r8EsQfW_0Ll9bvQSPaxUMF2m16Rl3vlbh2OY4BXWiC4P8gzeoLITPikfjonjoRmLYozVOeIopA2y6bx3gg7pS3kAqsu01sFtArcQQ0Ex0iuO52woGzPOHjvdiNDbsxaurehY9Rh02MFEQTqYXDiS56dnELBT3Culd/w640-h474/Honolulu%20weather,%20Feb%205,%202024.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><br />In Honolulu now, a daytime high of 78, breezy, with a chance of light rain. Perfect!<p></p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjsqY7DHOl5D2uiZlKObqfDad-sqpA57jeIt6DitPBW3zF8HXTmUcKuahMDDhxcAgKQ4yZr3NECWhDhz8r9UDLW4EuCtYDeJXLjdiHvL2ZxnKOPDEK29B9HctO193WoOb6jZwkj_CnCf7R-K9frfW_r4fvyRgmcDV9wp7tGCJBDUKXUL-NsiTh8LlU2m6ym/s1123/IMG_20230518_055048.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="842" data-original-width="1123" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjsqY7DHOl5D2uiZlKObqfDad-sqpA57jeIt6DitPBW3zF8HXTmUcKuahMDDhxcAgKQ4yZr3NECWhDhz8r9UDLW4EuCtYDeJXLjdiHvL2ZxnKOPDEK29B9HctO193WoOb6jZwkj_CnCf7R-K9frfW_r4fvyRgmcDV9wp7tGCJBDUKXUL-NsiTh8LlU2m6ym/w640-h480/IMG_20230518_055048.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the view running around Diamondhead; pretty nice</h4></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><br />John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-76306728453626349262024-01-31T23:19:00.000-08:002024-01-31T23:49:19.936-08:00A controversy over adding lemon and salt to tea<p><br /></p><p>Facebook tea groups are wrapping up a phase of discussion about the theme of adding lemon or salt to tea, a recommendation from a recent book on tea.</p><p>This relates to <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Steeped-Chemistry-Tea-Michelle-Francl/dp/183916591X">Steeped: The Chemistry of Tea</a>, by Michelle Francl. Basically salt is supposed to offset astringency and lemon reduces tea scum or cloudiness caused by calcium compounds. Here are the claims, <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/food/2024/jan/24/perfect-cup-of-tea-needs-a-pinch-of-salt-and-squeeze-of-lemon-says-us-chemist">cited in an article reviewing that book content</a> (which I guess could contain some error in summary, to be fair to the original author):</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Francl’s pro tips for the perfect brew are:</b></p><p><b>Adding a pinch of salt – the sodium ion in salt blocks the chemical mechanism that makes tea taste bitter.</b></p><p><b>Steeping teabags quickly but with plenty of dunking and squeezing – to reduce the sour-tasting tannins created by caffeine dissolving slowly in water.</b></p><p><b>Decaffeinated tea can be made by steeping a teabag for 30 seconds, removing it and discarding the liquid, then adding fresh water and rebrewing for five minutes.</b></p><p><b>A small squeeze of lemon juice can remove the “scum” that sometimes appears on the surface of the drink, which is formed from chemical elements in the tea and water….</b></p><p><br /></p><p>There are two sets of problems with these ideas: one is that they make no sense, presented in this form, and the other is that what they really probably refer to that could be accurate, after some editing and adjustment, is still problematic.</p><p>It’s possible that the first claim is that when you taste salt you also notice less bitterness. It could instead relate to a claim that sodium is going to offset extraction of compounds resulting in astringency, which is a mouthfeel effect that is often confused with bitterness. Bitterness is a flavor, not a mouthfeel aspect, but people conflate the two. It doesn’t clearly say that; that’s only one possible interpretation of this summary. </p><p>Caffeine really does taste bitter, as some other medications do, like aspirin, but surely salt isn’t going to offset caffeine extraction. Salt doesn’t seem likely to affect tannin extraction either, but I suppose I wouldn’t know if it did. In the following point, related to caffeine, tannins aren’t created by caffeine, and again it seems doubtful that caffeine could affect tannin extraction. Again the feel effect of tannins is more often misinterpreted as bitterness, not sourness.</p><p>A short tangent can help place that first possible interpretation. I add salt to masala chai (spiced black tea) to increase flavor depth, which happens even without noticeable salty flavor, as can occur with food. Once out with family to a Mongolian grill place a niece and I added salt to our dishes that ended up way too spicy. Salt doesn’t decrease the experience of spice, the heat, but it can help spicy food flavors balance better and make more sense. This may be the claim here, that the salt isn’t blocking any compound extraction, or shifting feel effect, but that the overall flavor balance might seem more positive when shifted a little, potentially even without the tea tasting salty. Maybe.</p><p>That decaffeination hack listed has been debunked over and over; <a href="https://chadao.blogspot.com/2008/02/caffeine-and-tea-myth-and-reality.html">this study’s caffeine extraction rate testing results</a> work as good a summary review as any to show why:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>30 seconds: 9% caffeine removal</b></p><p><b>1 minute: 18% caffeine removal</b></p><p><br /></p><p>So no, removing 9% of the caffeine isn’t going to help much, and you're probably removing 9% of the flavor along with it. Beyond these errors some main points work, to a limited degree, which I’ll move on to critiquing.</p><p>One problem with these claims goes back to why a tea would be astringent or would have a scum on it in the first place. It’s talking about brewing low quality, ground material, tea-bag black tea, which is very astringent for a few different reasons.</p><p>The form of the leaf is a main input; whole leaf tea is less astringent, because compounds extract differently in ground material (tannins, to use the informal designation; let’s get back to what those really are shortly). The more you chop or grind the material the faster it brews, and the more overall flavor is extracted, just not necessarily the most positive flavor or feel related compounds. This is why tea bags that contain 2 or 2 1/2 grams of tea leaf material are quite chopped or even ground up, to get more out of a little leaf content, which brews faster. So you can use better quality, more whole-leaf tea instead and skip the salt, but it’s more expensive, and you would need to use a bit more leaf.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEio1e2daAw00YNrETTmVwe-5ttzCQs44c-NUWdk6txhELom2Frw812_0dAHJMexVMmvYL01bOqnh6Ows5p-Vj7DOiY1YxKcHEB8yyyg--HsxpbhRQZoza33Wmte-Kds7dyOMf-EV9NU9xzJyMAb5KBxL1WpsK9yuxJjr7hvMA9oQ1YpdqZWHHa-h10xiJnP" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="1200" data-original-width="1600" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEio1e2daAw00YNrETTmVwe-5ttzCQs44c-NUWdk6txhELom2Frw812_0dAHJMexVMmvYL01bOqnh6Ows5p-Vj7DOiY1YxKcHEB8yyyg--HsxpbhRQZoza33Wmte-Kds7dyOMf-EV9NU9xzJyMAb5KBxL1WpsK9yuxJjr7hvMA9oQ1YpdqZWHHa-h10xiJnP=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>a Ceylon (Sri Lankan tea) tea bag I cut open awhile back.</h4><div><br /></div></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p>It doesn’t add much to what I’ve just expressed but lets consider what tannins even are, in relation to some of the flavor compounds being discussed, <a href="https://teaepicure.com/tea-chemistry/">from this Tea Epicure source</a>:</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>There are an estimated 30,000 polyphenolic compounds in tea.There are several known categories within polyphenols…</b></p><p><b>Within the flavonoid group are flavanols, flavonols, flavones, isoflavones, and anthocyanins. Flavanols (short for flavan-3-ols) are the most prevalent and thus the most studied. <i>Flavanols are often referred to as tannins or catechins.</i> </b></p><p><b>The major flavanols in tea are: catechin (C), epicatechin (EC), epicatechin gallate (ECG), gallocatechin (GC), epigallocatechin (EGC), and epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG). EGCG is the most active of the catechins, and this flavanol is often the subject of studies regarding tea antioxidants.</b></p><p><b>Flavanols are converted to theaflavins and thearubigins during oxidation. They are the compounds responsible for the dark color and robust flavors that are present in oxidized teas…</b></p><p><br /></p><p>The same kind of theme repeats with adding lemon. If you use water very high in calcium compounds, which is not so unusual for a lot of water sources, a light scum can form on the top of your tea, from polyphenols in the tea interacting with those calcium compounds. Lemon juice can clear that up. Or passing the water through a charcoal filter might help, removing some of the calcium compounds instead, before they combine with brewed tea and form a scum. </p><p>“Tea enthusiasts” often use some special water version, bottled spring water from an ideal mineral profile source, or they’ll treat water to strip all the minerals, reverse osmosis filter it, and re-add an optimum mineral blend. All that might be going a bit far; in most cases using filtered tap water is fine for a decent outcome. The extra level of concern seems to relate to optimizing outcome from a much better quality range of tea, the opposite extreme.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>So in conclusion, no, salt and lemon have no place in tea.</b> </p><p><br /></p><p>Or if you really want to use cheap tea bags to make tea, and brew it with relatively unsuitable high calcium content water, then sure, add those things. It’s your tea; it’s up to you.</p><p>If the goal is to experience above average quality tea that changes things, but that’s not everyone’s goal. Lipton or Great Value tea bags are really cheap, and easy to prepare, and if you add milk and sugar to that tea it can be ok. Or sugar and lemon, I guess; I don’t think it’s going to work to add both lemon and milk, since drinking curdled milk in tea won’t be pleasant. It’s just nothing like what tea enthusiasts drink. </p><p>Most of the time, at least; I’ll drink Lipton sometimes at our office, because I’m only in there once a week after work from home was instituted. Dilmah is better but they usually stock Lipton there. There probably is no standard example of a tea enthusiast, so I couldn't possibly be one, but the generality of not using tea bag tea still holds up.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgFxj7fJAYffYjKv6K29rHghxjjMp1gjPGSs40pxCqIiuBdka4Nsii6wB6C_Z97AC6rvqsl3ne8UofWO0dYB3hS07oxfmcosOZnOBPJjGIxhKpIhPnxc3HLuxD7fg-HddB11frSiQpQqeW5yg6dAGuTBVFrkuO0hRjYlAsdi8TGEkfTmCzUa850vA0OBcfJ/s960/puer%20drinker%20types%20jpeg.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="960" data-original-width="960" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgFxj7fJAYffYjKv6K29rHghxjjMp1gjPGSs40pxCqIiuBdka4Nsii6wB6C_Z97AC6rvqsl3ne8UofWO0dYB3hS07oxfmcosOZnOBPJjGIxhKpIhPnxc3HLuxD7fg-HddB11frSiQpQqeW5yg6dAGuTBVFrkuO0hRjYlAsdi8TGEkfTmCzUa850vA0OBcfJ/w640-h640/puer%20drinker%20types%20jpeg.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>this meme breakdown makes for a long story</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p>It’s too long a subject to treat as a short tangent here but pleasantness of the tea, flavor character and such, is only one part of range of concerns. Tea enthusiasts tend to take up the idea that more natural grown tea could be healthier, from forest or more natural growing condition sources, versus standard plantation teas, which are potentially grown with more pesticide input. Maybe it works out like that. My guess is that Lipton is safe enough, but once you switch over to the lowest cost bulk sources from Chinese or Indian markets you are taking some real risk.</p><p>The same astringency that is a concern for “bitterness” input can also lead to stomach problems, for some. <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2019/02/tea-and-stomach-problems-as-cause-and.html">I wrote about this concern awhile back</a> related to a co-worker needing to quit tea due to stomach impact.</p><p>The short version of that writing is that it will probably be necessary to drop out drinking matcha, black tea, green tea, and sheng pu’er entirely once these problems have already developed. Prior to experiencing damage to your stomach eating food before drinking any tea could protect you, at a guess most effectively if that food contains both complex carbohydrates and fat. Eating just fruit doesn't seem to help, based on my experience. </p><p>There are other types of tea that are milder than these, oolongs or white teas, and routinely alternating the types of tea that you drink could help. Drinking more whole leaf tea would be better. Once you already have a problem switching to shu pu’er could help, or going off tea entirely for a long period of time.</p><p>Let’s get back to the starting point and think all this through one more step: who is going to be interested enough in tea to buy and read a book about the subject, and then also prepare it from Lipton or Great Value tea bags?</p><p><br /></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjTqmqOwmNdwH8qb9PrA_44vG9lqHlq_vXqlN6143hpCZEOLNSGrMtse0LRRPC3RXZGCdSTsfkN_Qg-1yYKz1pnQrAnooWcLRicEfRheoZCguTijUD398OaIOLG_9pNmzI4ueSgA2v8NiZk3Y2s8Wn4ADS8y05k3v1gmfWygO10f_vJqNbNGQUCZP7veJLz" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="452" data-original-width="602" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjTqmqOwmNdwH8qb9PrA_44vG9lqHlq_vXqlN6143hpCZEOLNSGrMtse0LRRPC3RXZGCdSTsfkN_Qg-1yYKz1pnQrAnooWcLRicEfRheoZCguTijUD398OaIOLG_9pNmzI4ueSgA2v8NiZk3Y2s8Wn4ADS8y05k3v1gmfWygO10f_vJqNbNGQUCZP7veJLz=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>Vietnamese black tea, the last black tea I bought a few months ago</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj2fGV-VU1vqvNxdTScHJXVk_NMJ_COIdLiI4lbzJwJXRUcIkCIP-cN42-EdyoRldHU9VvSvWvLijfKVvnsHEZMhqzCij_k0A5fvCBmU2OXV4uv7sSh_wQpy0-Zd4HoBA_toXlHutfxjYOk2FUYwgOO9OpR0dUPt-qhZZaNEyS10HT_QAwjOKXlCUuAbS1z" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="284" data-original-width="400" height="454" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj2fGV-VU1vqvNxdTScHJXVk_NMJ_COIdLiI4lbzJwJXRUcIkCIP-cN42-EdyoRldHU9VvSvWvLijfKVvnsHEZMhqzCij_k0A5fvCBmU2OXV4uv7sSh_wQpy0-Zd4HoBA_toXlHutfxjYOk2FUYwgOO9OpR0dUPt-qhZZaNEyS10HT_QAwjOKXlCUuAbS1z=w640-h454" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>whole leaf tea and CTC tea (from an early blog post, before phone camera quality had improved)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><p></p><p>I would assume that this “better quality” tea is a familiar subject to anyone reading my blog posts or Quora answers, but in case it’s not <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2020/10/tea-group-themes-great-value-black-tea.html">this post</a> covered more on that divide.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-62625208492208022612024-01-21T21:10:00.000-08:002024-01-22T07:14:49.176-08:00Vietnamese sheng from Huyen<p> </p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiAWht6IYfJr9SLbMLP3I0YfRENizxirg1AhwlWdVi9KTMhTyjw94CYgnsTrOcV4TuPp1iaHpNLLEOF0ghyphenhyphen9VfMAwROAB7EZ7BWyWrVnqXnn3D20ZOorI4THv0V8rcqz-0SxN4AgHxJpSEfYq1_9k4izYEhUH8yf0__nxynIB0AkXrIi9kkAEPjLnGvsRlw/s1440/Huyen!.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1231" data-original-width="1440" height="548" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiAWht6IYfJr9SLbMLP3I0YfRENizxirg1AhwlWdVi9KTMhTyjw94CYgnsTrOcV4TuPp1iaHpNLLEOF0ghyphenhyphen9VfMAwROAB7EZ7BWyWrVnqXnn3D20ZOorI4THv0V8rcqz-0SxN4AgHxJpSEfYq1_9k4izYEhUH8yf0__nxynIB0AkXrIi9kkAEPjLnGvsRlw/w640-h548/Huyen!.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>Huyen is always so cheerful like this</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh7vGoT0UoK9rLJlzDxGvSnNm80xSYhND-hIfVMPMYUKKWsHeQ-ayAF-dtkP40nPpB0pz8GZhIJ8X74DUmoWJUb4AwTVFrIbqemm6tvV39FqJKxi64hGxuuar2dnNzhCHNBpS4YsducudFkNuLuaWTJvhzvuXahn32CJiw9eYbg3_J6iQl_HGqyvjVQ16D3/s1098/Vietnamese%20tea%20from%20Huyen%20IMG_20240119_121708.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="1098" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh7vGoT0UoK9rLJlzDxGvSnNm80xSYhND-hIfVMPMYUKKWsHeQ-ayAF-dtkP40nPpB0pz8GZhIJ8X74DUmoWJUb4AwTVFrIbqemm6tvV39FqJKxi64hGxuuar2dnNzhCHNBpS4YsducudFkNuLuaWTJvhzvuXahn32CJiw9eYbg3_J6iQl_HGqyvjVQ16D3/w640-h480/Vietnamese%20tea%20from%20Huyen%20IMG_20240119_121708.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><div><br /></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg0zXQCU4FBwMNHU3YoosDVphGRLQ-MLhgTWBGieyzhGwALLuLoWgDfpa2kyHi4uWtaoDHL3j1aZqxoR_3V0GHwxHl092wLVSw-2K8SkA9b8LJReLz-FYJqVgP40GMavODzZW26SENibVaJ7wv4g3Ujxb-HBmAEUHNS0ly_U6G1vKVZuF5C0iTZPF2IkYKr/s1098/Vietnamese%20sheng%20from%20Huyen.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="1098" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg0zXQCU4FBwMNHU3YoosDVphGRLQ-MLhgTWBGieyzhGwALLuLoWgDfpa2kyHi4uWtaoDHL3j1aZqxoR_3V0GHwxHl092wLVSw-2K8SkA9b8LJReLz-FYJqVgP40GMavODzZW26SENibVaJ7wv4g3Ujxb-HBmAEUHNS0ly_U6G1vKVZuF5C0iTZPF2IkYKr/w640-h480/Vietnamese%20sheng%20from%20Huyen.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>One of my absolute favorite tea friends just visited, or really is still here visiting Bangkok, Huyen Dinh from Vietnam. She and her whole family are a different kind of people, radiant and angelic, just wonderful. </p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi_u16syIdcaoXSD-Rs4kE2oIYtZVfkWvjl_qxvvxsF7NwwRHptJV9ki0zU24uU84mv88iQOa3WsiRhhyphenhyphennVFIPF-ofE7mQW6QDplxFnwiAzy6-86ZsYRfhKUxc6Gn1PZuUtxD64U2alcbqIMbFRalUOuHA5hPcC5WuSjpL3-bsYfKBQs8PulB1IMPbpDq3u/s960/Huyen%20Din%20and%20family.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="719" data-original-width="960" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi_u16syIdcaoXSD-Rs4kE2oIYtZVfkWvjl_qxvvxsF7NwwRHptJV9ki0zU24uU84mv88iQOa3WsiRhhyphenhyphennVFIPF-ofE7mQW6QDplxFnwiAzy6-86ZsYRfhKUxc6Gn1PZuUtxD64U2alcbqIMbFRalUOuHA5hPcC5WuSjpL3-bsYfKBQs8PulB1IMPbpDq3u/w640-h480/Huyen%20Din%20and%20family.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>Visiting and catching up was so nice. It included meeting her friend Seth, an American she travels with and works on tea research with. Time was tight that day of a first visit and two hours just flew by.</p><p>She gave me some tea, a whole cake of Vietnamese sheng. It was a bit too generous, but so that can go when you have friends like that. Her description is this:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>This tea cake is from Hoàng Thu Phố, Bắc Hà, Lào Cai province. It was made in 2023. Mostly old tea trees belongs to the H’mong people.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>The tea <a href="https://www.facebook.com/HTXQUANGTOM">is from here</a>; with the label shown following:</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjmHAZKXadE2HnuXFlmm1VOxTYCID1Cp_9EVARCmGVhUkRJNs053psZhJIhR3GNpZeFZ6J64L_mFvAJ19D6_DIcsw6mIHu3nN6FaEJ6tVqe5DO92ry0RXtTpP43rHNnQnJ72TFEp5gnpe7Zy_8uPGmVIEQY9LvqZBZtq9b3QLGDKL2GpR7DTh__Zi15oYDm/s1824/Vietnamese%20sheng%20from%20Huyen.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1368" data-original-width="1824" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjmHAZKXadE2HnuXFlmm1VOxTYCID1Cp_9EVARCmGVhUkRJNs053psZhJIhR3GNpZeFZ6J64L_mFvAJ19D6_DIcsw6mIHu3nN6FaEJ6tVqe5DO92ry0RXtTpP43rHNnQnJ72TFEp5gnpe7Zy_8uPGmVIEQY9LvqZBZtq9b3QLGDKL2GpR7DTh__Zi15oYDm/w640-h480/Vietnamese%20sheng%20from%20Huyen.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>Seth filled in even more background:<div><br /><div><br /></div><div><div><b>The area Hoang Thu Pho is in Lao Cai province on the east side of the Red River, which flows into Vietnam from Yunnan. It's in a mountain range called Tay Con Linh that peaks further eastward in Ha Giang (province). Son La is in a different mountain range called Hoang Lien Son with slightly higher elevation on the west side of the Red River, and also sits on the Black River, which also flows in from Yunnan. Both tea areas are owned by members of Hmong people groups.</b></div><div><b><br /></b></div><div><b>The tea maker for the Hoang Thu Pho cake is a younger guy named Phuc who has been making tea for about six years. He is not Hmong, but he buys tea material from Hmong tea areas and wants to focus on making high quality teas.</b></div><p><br /></p><p>He is doing a fantastic job. He might be able to shift style to match standard Yunnan versions a little more closely, but that might involve a trade-off of positive aspects instead of improving results, given how good this already is.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh5z07L14MyF323U82smV60WgKk33j3C2DvEQLtlMum5yH4CqoK7HGZdiAB-2nY4z3c2daPsr9DIG3qQ9TNEiwVNrg5zJ0S35PVHKMffdQ_URnnZiAtFLgaJICEZSNZxY0MjBxJowz2zhp-AJ0oETeZ9xupYqkDk0sAmUvjKpkVjeurxhRjfZPfU0z3B3mC/s824/Viet%20sheng%201.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="618" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh5z07L14MyF323U82smV60WgKk33j3C2DvEQLtlMum5yH4CqoK7HGZdiAB-2nY4z3c2daPsr9DIG3qQ9TNEiwVNrg5zJ0S35PVHKMffdQ_URnnZiAtFLgaJICEZSNZxY0MjBxJowz2zhp-AJ0oETeZ9xupYqkDk0sAmUvjKpkVjeurxhRjfZPfU0z3B3mC/w480-h640/Viet%20sheng%201.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>infusion #1: </b> just fantastic! I let this brew a little long, in order to skip the part about not being able to identify any aspects. Of course I didn't use a rinse. You can tell it's going to be like this from the dry scent, which is very sweet and floral, which contains plenty of other range that's harder to isolate. I never review tea by dry leaf smell though; brewed liquid description is plenty to get through.</p><p>Sweetness and floral range is intense, especially for this being the initial round. There is one or more very distinctive aspects in this that I'm probably never going to do justice to describing. It includes honey sweetness, that one warm tone, but I don't mean that. Floral range is bright, also warm, and complex, but I think I mean beyond that too. It could just be how those two inter-relate, with the honey including beeswax, but I think there is also vegetal or light spice range making this seem a lot more complex. </p><p>Regardless of getting a flavor-list breakdown right it's fantastic. In relation to my own preference, of course; this is just what I like. For others it might seem unfamiliar, or they might not be on this page. I couldn't relate to someone not liking it, since bitterness and feel are really approachable at this early stage, but preferences do vary.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg0wQWEQ4OnZKOM17pC-jXaGyMjZiOdkm1aWkKVhNwbyV1qnZWpFQWc9cUCQtU1bMp-Lihl2AOj8GrSIuGjZSX5qOZxB38m0H66B-jTKojbZF1jrn_byWjbmDCoOwMq9fgmeMZg4gklqs8z_wic04HUFNbXWdjY07M_Ev2EwIIgaF9q-8XyQ99dE6hj5QjA/s824/Viet%20sheng%202.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="618" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg0wQWEQ4OnZKOM17pC-jXaGyMjZiOdkm1aWkKVhNwbyV1qnZWpFQWc9cUCQtU1bMp-Lihl2AOj8GrSIuGjZSX5qOZxB38m0H66B-jTKojbZF1jrn_byWjbmDCoOwMq9fgmeMZg4gklqs8z_wic04HUFNbXWdjY07M_Ev2EwIIgaF9q-8XyQ99dE6hj5QjA/w480-h640/Viet%20sheng%202.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>#2: </b> intensity is really good in this. I'm probably brewing about 7 grams in a 90-100 ml gaiwan (depending on how you judge the volume, if you include the top that doesn't fill), and using a short time, not much over 10 seconds, and it's quite intense. </p><p>I think it might be that beeswax part that is making this seem so distinctive and pleasant, along with the complex floral range. Of course there is nice light toned underlying mineral filling in range and complexity. And more bitterness in this round; that should increase again next round and then level off. It's not bitter at all compared to what I'm accustomed to, just in a normal sheng range, not relatively bitter, or if anything below average at this point. The feel is soft and full; aftertaste adds to the experience of complexity. It's good, really good.</p><p>From there it's down to trying to identify the one part that I still think I'm missing. It might be two parts; this might include a little warm aromatic incense spice that supports and fills in the warm tone the beeswax covers. Then in the lighter range the floral tone might be expanded on by a light spice taste along the line of lemongrass, but then that might not be it.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhoM6fM8tLCsD04k5SaMFMMg_31_0bfrBdogqlomI7zZF04-7cG21JLfS0KFJAEbx97G0dvWB7vAuQ0iS9DS7wFfw8_dkDX4uqs2EAsB2j_GQYxN4tCKYWUXn7iho8P_2G2GEFvKVmQEywsqLZEPPUnKEI3hD39jsfrrx0uU6AwxAUrnl_2pb551lXzuFJM/s824/Viet%20sheng%203.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="618" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhoM6fM8tLCsD04k5SaMFMMg_31_0bfrBdogqlomI7zZF04-7cG21JLfS0KFJAEbx97G0dvWB7vAuQ0iS9DS7wFfw8_dkDX4uqs2EAsB2j_GQYxN4tCKYWUXn7iho8P_2G2GEFvKVmQEywsqLZEPPUnKEI3hD39jsfrrx0uU6AwxAUrnl_2pb551lXzuFJM/w480-h640/Viet%20sheng%203.jpg" width="480" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>note that I'm not editing photos to adjust for camera input variations</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p><b>#3:</b> bitterness never did ramp up to a level I expected, and feel stayed full and rich, never picking up the sharp astringency edge common in some younger sheng. That's all a good thing, really. I can tolerate, or even appreciate, quite a bit of bitterness or astringency edge if it's paired with complementary flavors and other aspects, but it's easier to relate to a tea version like this. </p><p>This normally leads me directly into a longish discussion of root causes and inputs; why is this version probably like this? Is it from a cultivar difference, or processing, did they let it oxidize a little more (probably partly that), or heat it a little more than is typical (shifting it towards green tea style), or could there be other inputs, related to growing conditions, tea plant age, or whatever else? It would all just be guesses anyway; the tea is what it is.</p><p>Flavor isn't changing or evolving but it was quite complex from the start, so that's fine. Warm tones might be picking up slightly in relation to the rest, but that kind of impression will shift with infusion strength of any given round. The honey sweetness is really captivating, combined with rich and complex floral tone range. This is already one of my favorite teas, three rounds in.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgROPIGODvQou7lY3NdCqlpBoi1YWrPNIr-8qa0caKePAAVr-6rO-q8XVKzzXTUZLeHw13zAc24YLxuULHSgpOvPSxCZTyTSgIBQID2fv4y7cvwUPDezNAvWcx-HJ7NVA-gqgl-kuEHZfJM_h_Dc5J2mbPKTU3TZhcTcAs-_MDDILK15MTEKseABpdbtw-G/s824/Viet%20sheng%204.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="618" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgROPIGODvQou7lY3NdCqlpBoi1YWrPNIr-8qa0caKePAAVr-6rO-q8XVKzzXTUZLeHw13zAc24YLxuULHSgpOvPSxCZTyTSgIBQID2fv4y7cvwUPDezNAvWcx-HJ7NVA-gqgl-kuEHZfJM_h_Dc5J2mbPKTU3TZhcTcAs-_MDDILK15MTEKseABpdbtw-G/w480-h640/Viet%20sheng%204.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>#4: </b> that flavor list breakdown isn't really changing, but there is some evolution in how it comes together, the overall impression. Feel richness might keep gradually increasing. Flavors don't shift much but very subtle changes in balance of what is present might continue. </p><p>The softness of this and mild bitterness both lean the character towards oolong range. I'm not really saying that it's probably significantly oxidized but that may be it; the brewed liquid color is a dark yellow instead of a bright yellow. If that is it this may be better drank quite young instead of aged, but for being as good as it is I wouldn't age this to hope it improved anyway, I'd just drink it, and drink most of it right now.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1P4_uXeE_gQPJaiXV4LyYIsJdrcJ8RPw9MtuTauyT0KWtfeOBkQH7GRz8lwXzSS50vPREL7eJapO2ulTS8bU4yifpYW5yaLltWJ35efYSX0vsf3D_3wrZBLIjbcTrbimdbr3CAPaMoXCXyP0_1O_Y955RYzfDLnWpit4OUY1XOGIk94dRHJUtYHkCcLeG/s824/Viet%20sheng%205.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="824" data-original-width="618" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1P4_uXeE_gQPJaiXV4LyYIsJdrcJ8RPw9MtuTauyT0KWtfeOBkQH7GRz8lwXzSS50vPREL7eJapO2ulTS8bU4yifpYW5yaLltWJ35efYSX0vsf3D_3wrZBLIjbcTrbimdbr3CAPaMoXCXyP0_1O_Y955RYzfDLnWpit4OUY1XOGIk94dRHJUtYHkCcLeG/w480-h640/Viet%20sheng%205.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>#5:</b> all the same comments from the last round apply to this one, maybe even the very slight shift in how it comes across, a change in the overall balance, which is hard to describe.</p><p>I can't help but suspect I'm missing a possible interpretation, that this really does taste like something else I'm leaving out. Maybe it's light toffee flavor instead of honey, something like that, or maybe it shifted from one to the other. The aftertaste range is really ramped up now; it's just as strong after you swallow it as when it's in your mouth. Someone good at breaking down floral range might construct a list to describe just that part, as a warm tone that dominates, a brighter tone matching other range, and who knows what else. There's a lot of floral scope. </p><p>It's all very pleasant; that's the main effect. Not in a unique or novel way that's not easy to relate to either; I could drink this every day for a month. Even an oolong drinker who can't tolerate much bitterness might really love this tea version.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>later infusions: </b> the notes stopped there; I had something to do. I noticed a bit of citrus picking up in later rounds, later on. Of course it was warm citrus, more like tangerine or some type of orange than lemon, maybe more yet like dried peel.</p><p>The rich feel shifted too. It never had picked up that feel structure that sheng often has, which could be negative for some, but which sheng drinkers end up liking, giving tea an extra experiential complexity, as the aftertaste does. It took on a sappy sort of feel, which comes up in different teas sometimes, but not in consistent enough ways that I can describe a range of other types it might be common to.</p><p>It didn't seem any less positive in later rounds. I'm not sure that it transitioned to become more pleasant and positive either, but then I already loved it in earlier rounds. One of my favorite teas reminds me of this, just in a different form, a Thai sheng version that just doesn't fade. But it doesn't transition that much either; what you get after 3 or 4 rounds isn't so different after 10 or 12, or more, and this kept varying a little.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions</h3><p><br /></p><p>This is comparable to a Son La sheng from Viet Sun, one that I bought not so long ago, and also love. It is so similar in some ways and quite different in others. This has a slightly softer feel, thick but not structured or astringent, and I think both are oxidized just a little more than conventional Yunnan pu'er. The flavor range is comparable but different, with a good bit more bitterness in that version. It might be that the Son La is a well-made version from good material and this is a well-made version, in a closely related but different style, from slightly better material, from an unusual quality range. I do really like that tea too though, so I don't mean for that positioning to make it sound like it's less-than. It might be interesting to drink them side by side.</p><p>Huyen described differences between the two growing areas, which I can guess at here and then edit later once she reads this, and notices the errors. From memory she said that plant types could be different (or vary across individual areas too), even though they're not so geographically removed, and growing elevation range is probably different, with that tea grown a bit higher. </p><p>It really wouldn't work to describe processing differences. She did tell a story about one area using a more centralized processing center (or more than one?), and another relying on farmers doing the processing, but I don't remember which is which, and that story could have even related to two other areas. It hardly matters anyway; ideal processing doesn't relate to one particular background context (a processing center versus an individual doing it, for example), it's about the steps being optimum, the temperature of the wok, turning the leaves during heating, batch size, isolation from smoke exposure (too much; a little might be interesting, but that's another story), rolling step outcome, drying approach and conditions, etc.</p><p><br /></p><p>There is so much more I should add about Huyen and Seth, but I wanted this post to mostly just be a tea review. He is also easy to relate to, a good guy, and a good reference for a range of tea themes, I've just emphasized an earlier connection with Huyen and her family more because that has meant a lot to me, for a long time. </p><p>I don't know how much they want to release about the interesting things they are working on now, their research. That story will be out at some point though, and I think they'll come back after a visit to the North, the Thai growing areas. Maybe I can add more when I describe them holding a local tasting to share Vietnamese tea experience with other tea enthusiasts here, probably in two weeks.</p><p>This also fails to cover everything I've discussed about general Vietnamese teas with Huyan and Seth lately, about tea types and quality levels, source areas, processing issues, shifts in supply and demand, sustainability / conservation issues, and so on. If it works out I'll collect a clearer summary of those issues and post more about them. A local tea outing brought up potential updates about boutique producer versions of specialty Thai teas; I'll try to get to that too.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhq_p3vTII4HzJArjI8WnFY2MR8q-4KvLc58wBpaA-syEAA7aTtLzAEG7dBoDnLSZGUZBWtW94E32UyG1VElG2-M7tayYvZ30I7J__ChWeDwH4f28jDrtfBVMGPDdRZ2On_SqqMgAF0YOhRGl3-xG9Ov5nJXZNCluPheN1iAOrfD99fGf3gp2rZPqlXoiS6/s1440/meeting%20Huyen%20and%20Seth%20in%20Bangkok,%20Jan.%202024.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1232" data-original-width="1440" height="548" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhq_p3vTII4HzJArjI8WnFY2MR8q-4KvLc58wBpaA-syEAA7aTtLzAEG7dBoDnLSZGUZBWtW94E32UyG1VElG2-M7tayYvZ30I7J__ChWeDwH4f28jDrtfBVMGPDdRZ2On_SqqMgAF0YOhRGl3-xG9Ov5nJXZNCluPheN1iAOrfD99fGf3gp2rZPqlXoiS6/w640-h548/meeting%20Huyen%20and%20Seth%20in%20Bangkok,%20Jan.%202024.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>meeting Huyen and Seth and two other local friends in a Bangkok shop</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhGKKHvc5Je0KJU8UVuRnlGY2tEYLsYoWAh0Wsxh879TSiVuh9LxMcLUhTs5RADrBA_ZIt9OFluxMya3PM7fOTzRcxtLHlKaOvk85CQcilk5rw9xhUQJvPd-WZUJfE5jR1zQJgwriihCx2MxiuEzrnbUDmxjJjqTG6hK8G4k8lV9xNukiEowqu7cpCyuHSd/s1440/Thai%20tea%20shop.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1233" data-original-width="1440" height="548" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhGKKHvc5Je0KJU8UVuRnlGY2tEYLsYoWAh0Wsxh879TSiVuh9LxMcLUhTs5RADrBA_ZIt9OFluxMya3PM7fOTzRcxtLHlKaOvk85CQcilk5rw9xhUQJvPd-WZUJfE5jR1zQJgwriihCx2MxiuEzrnbUDmxjJjqTG6hK8G4k8lV9xNukiEowqu7cpCyuHSd/w640-h548/Thai%20tea%20shop.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the Thai teas at that shop were exceptional, really next level</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEivBL5cPpy8f_VaxROQ4Zo4n2QhDALiBWIMCcuVVuT7wkgISgB2uVHTU1kD_l8xhEBqgTJavbhvzj4aFO5LsbOcDEeRq1JvqlN4OJ2wIIi6nPcLco1Ji4opI_NxXLIvutVdHq8xsiEGOfm-TwmlZoLHUNLsQy7HW57zK0DDIZ56FgyjZv7J5dhy8hC2PPmu/s1440/Huyen%20and%20Seth%20visit%20cheng%20shim%20ei.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1080" data-original-width="1440" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEivBL5cPpy8f_VaxROQ4Zo4n2QhDALiBWIMCcuVVuT7wkgISgB2uVHTU1kD_l8xhEBqgTJavbhvzj4aFO5LsbOcDEeRq1JvqlN4OJ2wIIi6nPcLco1Ji4opI_NxXLIvutVdHq8xsiEGOfm-TwmlZoLHUNLsQy7HW57zK0DDIZ56FgyjZv7J5dhy8hC2PPmu/w640-h480/Huyen%20and%20Seth%20visit%20cheng%20shim%20ei.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>visiting a favorite local restaurant and desert place, Cheng Shim Ei</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiPlS2iL_KPRQwFJc8C0HqfED3y8Q3nKanRK7mcMrgpNPawo-Zyhk-_reC2nxFsdfzHrydOOcFKGKiLcqOJU_uVGlFr4zpO0JoJyIrSPeikzWvWjm70FgW-YFPErvPt8kpOkjDyYGZTQMwofScZO1cdzspGrFPfxj937Kc9vFxUYxmj4I6U96d8ir13Cyjt/s1984/Myra,%20January%202024.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1488" data-original-width="1984" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiPlS2iL_KPRQwFJc8C0HqfED3y8Q3nKanRK7mcMrgpNPawo-Zyhk-_reC2nxFsdfzHrydOOcFKGKiLcqOJU_uVGlFr4zpO0JoJyIrSPeikzWvWjm70FgW-YFPErvPt8kpOkjDyYGZTQMwofScZO1cdzspGrFPfxj937Kc9vFxUYxmj4I6U96d8ir13Cyjt/w640-h480/Myra,%20January%202024.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>my company for the tastings, when I'm outside</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p></div></div>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-39605050201342256022024-01-14T01:35:00.000-08:002024-01-31T23:39:55.721-08:00ITea World Dan Cong and Tie Guan Yin oolongs<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjZOpBLQCKBdo5l8gIkos4wAOGCsbgX5HxReM1ECe8toHQsEwhO1ntMpyVjlNuYmsJns81KMQuWW5p4WF7xDGBw2M3a1QlybRjlv6H9h3hgd9JS8NZB0RQxrTeokGWzWtzuDcjAVC8xIsQcQzIlpk7mCJ9p_ixAGWGUa9CQnSKbQGH1bybbdmzrgv0nib7B/s1080/ITWorld%20oolongs,%20Dian%20Cong%20and%20TGY.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1080" height="500" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjZOpBLQCKBdo5l8gIkos4wAOGCsbgX5HxReM1ECe8toHQsEwhO1ntMpyVjlNuYmsJns81KMQuWW5p4WF7xDGBw2M3a1QlybRjlv6H9h3hgd9JS8NZB0RQxrTeokGWzWtzuDcjAVC8xIsQcQzIlpk7mCJ9p_ixAGWGUa9CQnSKbQGH1bybbdmzrgv0nib7B/w640-h500/ITWorld%20oolongs,%20Dian%20Cong%20and%20TGY.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>Greetings! It's been awhile. My kids spent winter school break here in Bangkok, visiting back from Honolulu, so I took a couple of weeks off this blog, and most of the internet in general. I should probably never return to the same level of use, but this isn't about the digital detox theme.</p><p>I had tried tea versions from ITea World before, samples sent from a new mainstream Chinese vendor for review, in 2023. They were pretty good; kind of medium quality level, but for being moderate cost versions the value and experience in relation to expectations was fine. They asked if I wanted to try more, better versions of oolongs this time, and it's always interesting revisiting such themes. I drink a lot more sheng pu'er than anything else now, but it's interesting checking in with types I've focused more on in the past.</p><p>In this review I tried to sort out just how good the versions are. Better than the last ones, unless I've got that all wrong, this time more upper medium quality, or at the lower end of the highest quality range. It probably gets tiresome hearing that spelled out in detail, but it does also pass on my take on what differentiates really good tea versions from medium or slightly above average versions, so covering finer points at length serves two different purposes. </p><p>I don't lean into the theme of "quality markers" too much here, something I've not ran across used in exactly the same way I've developed it, but surely a theme that's not unheard of. Some specific aspects identify what is most desirable in some tea versions; that's it. For this it's enough to specify what stands out as most positive and what represents limitations in these versions.</p><p>They're not listed on the website, except in the sampler version they sent me. The versions are from different harvests than the earlier oolongs offerings, or else they seem the same, of the same types. I've not discussed how these are better with the vendor, in any detail.</p><p>The set sells for $40 for a 100 gram set of samples, all 5 grams each (so there must be 20--yep, I just counted them), so only that price point will serve as a cost baseline. 40 cents a gram for pretty good oolong is not so bad, as a starting point. For baseline reference I can buy really good versions of it in the Bangkok Chinatown for $30 for 100 grams, but you would almost have to live in China to have access to the same or better degree of options as there, to be able to buy good versions at low cost. Cost of teas tend to vary some by type, with some higher in demand, and the Dan Cong in this set may be the kind of version that sells for a good bit more than Tie Guan Yin or Shui Xian (for example). </p><p>What about comparison with online sales options though? That gets complicated, because online vendors set price points in a broad range of ways, which vary by the value they buy tea at, and their markup, all adjusted quite a bit for their costs, the volume they sell, and what works out well for profit for them. There is no standard range of norms, really; it varies. In this I talk as if there is, estimating what comparable quality versions to these would tend to sell for online. That can be hard to estimate based on product descriptions, because essentially every vendor exaggerates quality levels, describing their own teas in glowing, positive terms, as they kind of should, since a sales function just doesn't couple well with excessive humility about experienced aspects and quality level.</p><p>Let's push that consideration a little further, then cite their description, then get on with review notes. This is a medium quality (or at least medium range price) <a href="https://yunnansourcing.com/en-th/products/mi-lan-xiang-middle-mountain-dan-cong-oolong-tea?_pos=2&_sid=31ed547ae&_ss=r">Mi Lan Xiang Dan Cong from Yunnan Sourcing</a>, not the obvious place to buy teas from provinces outside of Yunnan, but a standard option, selling for $17.50 per 30 grams (so $58 per 100 grams), with their highest quality / cost offering selling for a lot more, more than double that:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>This is a lovely middle mountain (中山) elevation Mi Lan Xiang (蜜兰香) from Da An village, grown at an altitude of roughly 900 meters from decades old tea bushes growing wild.</b></p><p><b>Strong and thick tea, golden yellow tea soup, powerful honey and orchid aroma. Perfect balance of sweet, bitter and umami with a long lasting mouth-feeling. Cha Qi is powerful and clean.</b></p><p><b>This is a high quality Mi Lang Xiang that will surely please even the most discerning Dan Cong connoisseurs!</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>It sounds good. One point here in citing that is that tea descriptions should focus on the positive, and another is to spell out a type-typical range: including floral range, good balance, good mouthfeel, and intensity. Bitterness and umami not so much; I'm not sure what that's all about. Sheng is bitter, and umami is found in Japanese green teas, or maybe Mao Feng Chinese green tea, but typically not Dan Cong. Maybe this Yunnan Sourcing version is better than the one I've already wrote notes for, or maybe it's not as good; you can't tell from a description.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.wuyiorigin.com/collections/phoenix-dancong/products/old-bush-mi-lan-xiang-%e8%80%81%e6%9e%9e%e8%9c%9c%e5%85%b0%e9%a6%99-2023?variant=45111781753147">This version from Wuyi Origin</a>, a very, very well regarded direct sales producer site, lists for $60 per 100 grams; it's almost certainly significantly better. But it's not really fair, comparing tea from a mainstream resale outlet--what both ITea World and Yunnan Sourcing are--with the relative best quality and value source for this oolong in China that I'm aware of. </p><p>This kind of oolong sampler is for a different kind of customer, someone wanting to explore better oolongs than you typically ever find in broad-type online outlets or any local tea shops. From there people might eventually go on to seek out what pushes on towards being as good as any versions typically get. The Wuyi Origin cost isn't that much higher but moving on to spend $200 on a tea order isn't for everyone; I personally try to avoid that. 300 grams of the tea I mentioned gets you pretty close, and if "free" shipping isn't built into their pricing you're there.</p><p><br /></p><p>Let's check <a href="https://iteaworld.com/products/oolong-tea-sampler?ref=ay9eddnn">that ITea World listing</a>:</p><p><br /></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgXRdDZ_VxFg2wkpN_h59AosmSNz7hFriPo_vluvIaepxC4EfqaILsp8q8FztwjFR7BMi1ERnAicbwLSgm7eyoutQzJeWdvEw1FqCw7nzN01YS7kVpANIMy_FeZe6TXdj51S1LbfnLOyKKL3HCVg9LKYmwJ8pN_SkG7LxNrjDcs9BKzgFdXbzCoBPABcorz" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="550" data-original-width="1461" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgXRdDZ_VxFg2wkpN_h59AosmSNz7hFriPo_vluvIaepxC4EfqaILsp8q8FztwjFR7BMi1ERnAicbwLSgm7eyoutQzJeWdvEw1FqCw7nzN01YS7kVpANIMy_FeZe6TXdj51S1LbfnLOyKKL3HCVg9LKYmwJ8pN_SkG7LxNrjDcs9BKzgFdXbzCoBPABcorz=w640-h240" width="640" /></a></div><br /><br /><p></p><p>Again that's listed for $40 ($39.99) for 100 grams of those samples, packaged in 5 gram samples. That site shows free shipping kicking in at $39.98, so in theory you could just buy this set. That would be amazing self-discipline, ordering $40 of tea from a China-based vendor, but you could.</p><p>It does say a little more about specific local harvest area, growing elevation, and oxidation level on that page, but it seems as well to get on with describing the teas. Elevation does matter, and plant age (supposedly over 100 years old for the Dan Cong), but it's as well to go by final outcome, the experienced aspects, and you need to try the tea to determine that. Or hear from someone you trust on that, I guess, but then even given that kind of input verbal descriptions only go so far.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiPS0ZrxoLjqShPdony-KM1-bm82ua1m_7Z0XWbSgE1RPlzuKr-rnKoLe3mtDO3MsKqzoE9i-EvVA_-U-Q9pxSyZmwdfP0sO2vfui_nqcoIYjb-Q1LGb_SUM5H6YKfkE8Q6JpgbQzQ7s0bQMaGU2YEjiKURIYkTpF1u1JNI814php8rlsJOIKCACe117bMd/s1127/ITW%20DC%20and%20TGY%201.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiPS0ZrxoLjqShPdony-KM1-bm82ua1m_7Z0XWbSgE1RPlzuKr-rnKoLe3mtDO3MsKqzoE9i-EvVA_-U-Q9pxSyZmwdfP0sO2vfui_nqcoIYjb-Q1LGb_SUM5H6YKfkE8Q6JpgbQzQ7s0bQMaGU2YEjiKURIYkTpF1u1JNI814php8rlsJOIKCACe117bMd/w640-h480/ITW%20DC%20and%20TGY%201.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Dan Cong: </b> it's good. As so often tends to happen this first round is a little light, and therefore harder to really judge, but this is quite nice. The oxidation input and roast balance is very medium, just as it should be to get to a very positive outcome for this type, complementing the floral range very well. I'll fill in the standard list of aspects and finer quality level assessment the next time, but this is probably as far up the quality scale as it should be for what I'm expecting of it, fairly far along. Style is zeroed in, especially roast level, I think; not pretty good but right there. </p><p>This probably is Mi Lan Xiang again, and again it's odd that the package doesn't say that, as with the first version that I reviewed. I'll cite a website listing after making review notes, and that may fill in this detail (it seems to not; a little odd, really even something that could be taken as a red flag, but again experienced aspects and quality are what matter most, as I see it). I'm brewing 5 grams, the package amount, which really should be relatively ideal, but I tend to use about 8 grams normally, so I'll have to make an adjustment.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Tie Guan Yin:</b> the same; this will be easier to evaluate next round, once it has opened up and is more intense. I think this is better than their last version too, in the range better versions fall into. Not for traditional style more oxidized and roasted tea versions; this is still the bright green kind. Markers for quality level include very sweet floral input, ranging into an odd taste sensation form, which I'll describe further next round, almost oddly strong, with a somewhat thick, full feel seeming to emerge. </p><p>I really won't be able to make out the feel brewed lightly and not really opened up but the flavor is fine. It might include a very light off trace, drifting every so slightly into new car smell range, but that may just be an early round anomaly that drops out right away.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj9oStnLczNNJ3fL33fO4onMyAC6yoNfPnwxJFXpQxORHPeGIjLLp8VVBicEeVfWgtCyukdXLouk7BgqzxXHaRQ5pe9oxlEj4ZR8XocS3emiBMBzP-BW1mL8JLic1h2_PAUukxgBW7VQYSj-Gy946GXokM0ov3dI7PjxeRiPNEawSpSbdafHodcJpxCiWQ3/s1127/ITW%20DC%20and%20TGY%202.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj9oStnLczNNJ3fL33fO4onMyAC6yoNfPnwxJFXpQxORHPeGIjLLp8VVBicEeVfWgtCyukdXLouk7BgqzxXHaRQ5pe9oxlEj4ZR8XocS3emiBMBzP-BW1mL8JLic1h2_PAUukxgBW7VQYSj-Gy946GXokM0ov3dI7PjxeRiPNEawSpSbdafHodcJpxCiWQ3/w640-h480/ITW%20DC%20and%20TGY%202.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Dan Cong, #2: </b> brewed much stronger, really a bit excessive, for trying to err on the side of definitely getting this strong enough. </p><p>Feel structure really ramped up as a result, and heavier, earthier flavors. That's actually better for evaluating feel, but flavor experience isn't optimum like that. It doesn't include a common harsh astringency edge some Dan Cong does, or many do. People can make the mistake of thinking that's actually type-typical, when it's my impression that it's really not, that it's common but not a marker of correct style and aspect range. </p><p>People also tend to get astringency and bitterness mixed up, which I find odd. It doesn't take that much exposure to tea aspects to see them as completely different things, which just happen to sometimes occur together, or maybe they come up together often. Bitterness is a flavor aspect; that's what aspirin tastes like. Astringency relates to feel; it's the roughness of texture that occurs in a range of tea types, especially in very chopped or ground up black tea. Black teas are essentially never bitter (although there would always be exceptions), so if you think your tea-bag tea is bitter you might want to give this some thought. Taste an aspirin, which is bitter (and also causes an astringency sensation; that's confusing), and see if the flavor part is common to what it experienced in chopped material black tea. Here I'm claiming that the feel is comparable but not the taste.</p><p>At a guess lower elevation, younger plants grown using a lot of fertilizer tends to be very intense, including that strong feel edge (astringency), and older plant, higher grown, less chemical-stressed plants include fantastic flavor and feel character but they're not as intense, at least not in the same ways. Floral flavor and sweetness can be very pronounced, but a harsh feel edge often isn't (the astringency). If both flavor and feel are intense in a Dan Cong version it works better to use really short infusion times and hot water to optimize the experience, more so than cutting the brewing temperature, which works, but in a different way. Don't take my word for that, try it and see what you think.</p><p>This would be easier to place if I'd been drinking more Dan Cong over the last few years. I think it's pretty good, in a well above average quality range, but finer differences mark the highest levels from there. Different vendors sell what are described as the best of the best range, hyping tea plant age claims, using elaborate descriptions of refined, diverse, and unique feel and flavor experience, but it can be hard to separate hype from likely accurate description. Only with tasting does one arrive at any subjective impression of that, but online discussion inputs about this or that vendor selling the most optimum versions contradict each other. As I suppose they should; different versions would vary quite a bit, maybe even as sold by the same vendor, and preferences would vary.</p><p>To distill this to a flavor list a perfume-like floral sweetness dominates the experience, along with warm tones surely drawn out through extra oxidation and roast input. The two ranges really balance. Warm mineral tone ramps up right at the end of the experience, leading into a sweet aftertaste experience including all of that range.</p><p>Even though it's all very positive, about as pleasant, refined, intense, complex, and balanced as it probably would be, for higher volume, diverse type outlet sales, it's my impression that dialing up all of those just a touch is still possible. Feel thickness is more moderate; there is room for more change in that, and aftertaste intensity is also positive but not at the high end of that range of potential. It all seems like splitting hairs, but that's how evaluating quality for above average quality versions go. </p><p>At a rough guess this should retail for 50 to 60 cents a gram but not more (or it could sell for less; it's hard to pin down what the best value, quite good quality range versions out there are like). The 70 or 80 cent per gram range is something else, or $1 or over. Or maybe that's being a little harsh; this is quite good, and Dan Cong seems to reach $1 per gram quickly enough for a generally good quality range, and this is that. It certainly doesn't taste like a medium quality tin-packaged version, although the best of those, the atypical examples, fall fairly close, or could be this good. We'll see how their pricing places it [that never did become clear, because all together sell for 40 cents per gram].</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Tie Guan Yin: </b> I have mixed feelings about this quality assessment too. If I was evaluating this as either inexpensive, medium range, or higher quality Tie Guan Yin it would easily surpass that first level, and fall either in the higher end of the second or lower end of the third. Sweetness is good, floral range is pleasant, and dominant, and it contains a catchy towards-plastic aspect that I'm interpreting as generally positive, even though per that description it wouldn't sound it, and someone might really hate that, or else could like it. Then feel is a bit thin, aftertaste is limited, and intensity and the balance / complexity part isn't bad but not in the highest range. </p><p>Evaluating this against all TGY it's quite good; trying to match it with the highest quality end of the range gives the opposite results, and gaps stand out. As long as pricing is favorable per quality, the value is good, if the idea is to try above average quality TGY this easily provides that experience. If the intention is for this to compete with the best of the best it doesn't seem to hold up. </p><p>Then one would wonder about pricing, and I'm not really even sure where the high level range for pretty good TGY stands. For lots of in-demand and more rare tea types, for any Dan Cong version beyond Mi Lan Xiang, the most common one, the best versions are at or above $1 per gram, fairly universally. That may not hold as true for Tie Guan Yin, although given how demand patterns work out in China, that the best teas are sought out and competed for, maybe it still works, even though TGY is really the main universal oolong type out there, or one of them, sold as a most-common tea type. Shui Xian fills that role in Fujian / Wuyi Yancha versions, and TGY from Anxi is even more ubiquitous.</p><p>I'll try brewing these for more like 20 seconds, to try them lighter.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhwsHwYtfxgJanyTMzYgdxP96hObj-TpCyWKqUryjZkj4j0j7zyPcb4LpGW9mPYzyDErSmQ1irQnN5GoHeMyklGzZI4YWKnHlDH-UYYHfNn8uiJzOKGD6C23GwqQJsRYkJXq0AXnQzRpS1Hv6-y15VkB4-Nmg0UnpdhlZzvRkMTK5BnwBHEcGi0LUxzsS67/s1127/ITW%20DC%20and%20TGY%203.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhwsHwYtfxgJanyTMzYgdxP96hObj-TpCyWKqUryjZkj4j0j7zyPcb4LpGW9mPYzyDErSmQ1irQnN5GoHeMyklGzZI4YWKnHlDH-UYYHfNn8uiJzOKGD6C23GwqQJsRYkJXq0AXnQzRpS1Hv6-y15VkB4-Nmg0UnpdhlZzvRkMTK5BnwBHEcGi0LUxzsS67/w640-h480/ITW%20DC%20and%20TGY%203.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Dan Cong #3:</b> forget about that project of placing this in relation to the highest possible quality levels; related to purely subjective experience value this is solid tea, that works well for me. The way the warmth and deeper tones integrate and balance with the sweet floral range is great. Sure it's possible to consider if there shouldn't be a bit more thickness of feel (or quite a bit more), or if complexity and intensity couldn't be dialed up just a little, but this still totally works. Feel is a bit velvety, just not thick. </p><p>Flavors are complex and balanced, just perhaps leaving limited range for improvement. But it's quite good. If this sells for under $1 per gram I think it's probably a good value for that, whether or not you could explore and eventually find a slightly better version at the same cost; for quite near, at, or over $1 per gram and they're probably pushing it a bit.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Tie Guan Yin:</b> this is nice too. Mind you I'm working around Tie Guan Yin not really being a personal favorite range, so I'm not going to refer back to that subjective preference assessment, beyond quality. It's good though, and pleasant. I don't think it matches the Dan Cong version for how good, even though comparing different types brings up problems in equivalence. For this style of oolong, lighter rolled versions, thickness of feel is all the more critical, and this seems just a trace thinner than the other, not better in relation to just that aspect. Sweetness is good, and floral range is fine, but that one slightly off taste aspect trace, which I find to be both catchy and also slightly negative, even though that's odd, a plastic sort of taste, also throws off highest level quality assessment. </p><p>Again if the point is for it to be quite good it's there, well above average, but within the top third of the quality range potential it's near that bottom of the top. If this is 40 to 50 cents a gram, selling as a next level breakfast tea, that's fair, again even if somewhere else on the internet better tea sells for less. For anywhere near $1 a gram, or even 60 to 80 cents, it's just too much for what this is. </p><p>For me personally I'd not drink much really light style rolled oolong at all, but I should clarify that I was really on that page very early in my tea exploration, and I would have loved this back then. Preferences naturally evolve over time, and this is better as a place to start, or explore in early rounds. </p><p>I don't think this holds its own with the higher quality level range from Taiwan, but then a lot of oolong versions from there marketed as such would be generally equivalent, but not better; almost anything selling through high volume mainstream outlets probably would be. Specialty vendors known for selling only the best range of Taiwanese oolongs would only sell better quality versions than this, but the cost for those would tend to be double or triple what you would buy pretty good Anxi Tie Guan Yin for.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Dan Cong #4: </b> floral range might develop a bit, picking up more intensity. That's a good sign; this might continue to evolve positively. I'm not going to write more notes though; I don't have time to spare for that. If I remember to I'll add a comment from memory later on how that worked out.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Tie Guan Yin:</b> this is good, it's just not great. It's very pleasant, and all the aspects are generally where they should be, just not at the optimum level for many. Sweetness, freshness, floral range, mineral range adding depth, aftertaste follow-through are all positive, although aftertaste intensity is limited. Feel gives up a good bit. For people not experienced in evaluating higher quality versions that wouldn't stand out at all, since you tend to explore and appreciate flavor first. This is pleasant, likeable. It will be interesting seeing the cost and the website description, matching both versions up against those.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Later rounds: </b> these held up fine for a couple of more infusions but then died a bit quickly, which I guess also related to using a lower proportion than I usually do, and longer infusion times.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>These are better than I remember the 2023 ITea World versions being. Again they're good value, good quality in relation to the selling price, maybe best described as the highest level of upper medium quality range versus the low end of the highest quality scope. As I'd mentioned for people newer to tea experience what I'm experiencing as significant gaps may not be all that noticeable at all; early on people typically haven't learned to evaluate or value thickness of feel and aftertaste experience. Related to only flavor they're much better, than when you include review of those aspect expectations.</p><p>I liked the Dan Cong a lot more. I like Dan Cong more than Tie Guan Yin in general, but them getting the oxidation level and roast dialed in made a big difference, and I've not mentioned aspects that stand out as flaws because there weren't any, beyond what could've been more pronounced, feel, complexity, and such. Flavor range was pretty good for that. </p><p>I am pretty sure it's Mi Lan Xiang, the most common Dan Cong type, for what that's worth. There is room for improvement in the flavor complexity, intensity, balance, and refinement but all that is fairly positive. I say that, but if you try this version side by side with a much higher quality version the difference would seem striking. If you aren't experienced at evaluating teas if you tried both 3 or 4 weeks apart it might be much harder to notice it; it's funny how that works. It could've been a couple years since I've tried any Dan Cong; after awhile the whole range just becomes familiar, with enough exposure, drinking dozens of versions over many years.</p><p>The Tie Guan Yin is pretty decent Tie Guan Yin; I suppose that's good enough. If you would taste it side by side along with anything from a specialty grocery store this version would seem fantastic in comparison. Then trying it along with standard $1-$1.50 per gram Taiwanese rolled oolong it would seem to fall way short; it's funny how that works out.</p><p>I can respect what ITea World is doing with these teas, making above average versions available at fair pricing. This is perfect for someone new to exploring oolongs. Even if someone had been dabbling in trying them for awhile, but wasn't clear on their baseline quality expectations, these could be pleasant and helpful. Even if the best of all the other versions someone had already tried had been slightly better it would still help place that range. For people way past both exploration levels maybe trying these wouldn't make any sense, although I guess they could still work as a gift, for someone just getting started.</p><p>It's a little bizarre related to my own personal use but these come with a set of tea bag sleeves you can put them in; you can convert this loose tea to bag versions, just using what they've provided. For a loose tea enthusiast you'd end up considering how else you might use those, since it wouldn't make sense to put this oolong in them to brew it (any other devices you already have around would work better). </p><p>Some people keep sheng pu'er cake dust and small bits aside in a separate jar and brew only that from time to time; those bags might be perfect for that, to take a blend of extra scraps of cakes to the office to drink there. Or it all works even better together as a gift, in case someone absolutely couldn't figure out how to brew loose tea. For a non-tea drinker that's less unlikely and absurd; there is a learning curve to go through, and having some related gear definitely helps. If you took only this sample set to a hotel you'd be set for having some decent tea every day for three weeks; not bad. Drinking tea only from tea bags for three weeks would seem so strange to any tea enthusiast; the point is that it would work.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjSOVFEMI4PCbi7Eb58tOIyXwomsRwsCpRHpdjwnuwDjDds4eYkIZ2Vz9xplvYZrNfm7vnLg1Ti9iRbepxKtvHyQXhyvlMccQW4j6P8we5yYrvbiy5cNRa30I0aBInWgSid5ox9ZGlGE9xHiH1OyG3leY0hxBAizJPW6ZOT7Ciyr89t6wfCYRTI9C3yjCdn/s1824/ITWorld%20tea%20bags%202.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1368" data-original-width="1824" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjSOVFEMI4PCbi7Eb58tOIyXwomsRwsCpRHpdjwnuwDjDds4eYkIZ2Vz9xplvYZrNfm7vnLg1Ti9iRbepxKtvHyQXhyvlMccQW4j6P8we5yYrvbiy5cNRa30I0aBInWgSid5ox9ZGlGE9xHiH1OyG3leY0hxBAizJPW6ZOT7Ciyr89t6wfCYRTI9C3yjCdn/w640-h480/ITWorld%20tea%20bags%202.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgQvXXL4fwgAoOn1jpp8TybDn-_f0vc5FXNh1Yno15nX7fd8qNWMZo7NNHiDGHU61OxZbRXjTjrpUAgwM5nfqyklH4lt89VpPU5J1ECKO1FBNG3gs3ULZih-yQKNq4Cik-ykX4YeQ39er62ukbdNcYDPp6q4RQy-iJif4Zr79qRblYJrYJJESdrgBifhmaw/s1440/kids%20with%20cats%20during%202023%20to%202024%20Christmas%20break.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1440" data-original-width="1440" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgQvXXL4fwgAoOn1jpp8TybDn-_f0vc5FXNh1Yno15nX7fd8qNWMZo7NNHiDGHU61OxZbRXjTjrpUAgwM5nfqyklH4lt89VpPU5J1ECKO1FBNG3gs3ULZih-yQKNq4Cik-ykX4YeQ39er62ukbdNcYDPp6q4RQy-iJif4Zr79qRblYJrYJJESdrgBifhmaw/w640-h640/kids%20with%20cats%20during%202023%20to%202024%20Christmas%20break.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>reunited with the cats (2 of 3 of them)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgWZSl8lQOJe9TH6VuEYK_5ejy3tkxGrp4YUpaZwTdB11Eqa06G2dAZQer0kSXXKxekGVms7hmqR7S7tdS1sxUJhjW6pIYbJb3Q4wuudxW6qwOyU6_mDm0iFevtX05ZXPez1Np2kqCgQqcj_jpaEBa2YcwaUKlMZWzvWP6hoiEme5mpGZZjowOg3027kKwP/s1440/mall%20automatic%20massage%20chair.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1440" data-original-width="1440" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgWZSl8lQOJe9TH6VuEYK_5ejy3tkxGrp4YUpaZwTdB11Eqa06G2dAZQer0kSXXKxekGVms7hmqR7S7tdS1sxUJhjW6pIYbJb3Q4wuudxW6qwOyU6_mDm0iFevtX05ZXPez1Np2kqCgQqcj_jpaEBa2YcwaUKlMZWzvWP6hoiEme5mpGZZjowOg3027kKwP/w640-h640/mall%20automatic%20massage%20chair.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>lots of errands, play outings, and pausing to enjoy the little things</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiFbs3XXH4hVytC3HpRGffVW45xiLAVuJ1ZoCxHYVQiaUaVcbC6R4LF2IuOittO-rVo6l1O5b12o45vbkPUzPZ1NS1Vo-Annb8MuElS4jeOmxVlJX2gJvPB04kJju8tSyrErSUE_1BnDCRKZDGlsCgO-W-GpTEoFe_7tm1fZusH1xdxjS10Iq_VyTW0wYd-/s1440/Kalani%20in%20Thai%20elephant%20dress.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1440" data-original-width="1440" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiFbs3XXH4hVytC3HpRGffVW45xiLAVuJ1ZoCxHYVQiaUaVcbC6R4LF2IuOittO-rVo6l1O5b12o45vbkPUzPZ1NS1Vo-Annb8MuElS4jeOmxVlJX2gJvPB04kJju8tSyrErSUE_1BnDCRKZDGlsCgO-W-GpTEoFe_7tm1fZusH1xdxjS10Iq_VyTW0wYd-/w640-h640/Kalani%20in%20Thai%20elephant%20dress.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>they got some things for Christmas, just not much</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg9fIVtrz3rgCXx7RueqVixYhg26Sdu8iyATdbpiVtxPKLJOGkiA7fQaVcyGXtqHgmZy8hMDNEfDRDkpC4ZLCaLH4elD0u0wnx6x6xjzyhQqTVM5mONm4vHGFzhSSL-xcc_syHFI8S0bAcaVQUcPE6t8MFfgdpPFcneZqsdH2chPj3oDEVjqEcuxKrA0zOU/s1440/shabushi,%20Christmas%202023.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1440" data-original-width="1440" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg9fIVtrz3rgCXx7RueqVixYhg26Sdu8iyATdbpiVtxPKLJOGkiA7fQaVcyGXtqHgmZy8hMDNEfDRDkpC4ZLCaLH4elD0u0wnx6x6xjzyhQqTVM5mONm4vHGFzhSSL-xcc_syHFI8S0bAcaVQUcPE6t8MFfgdpPFcneZqsdH2chPj3oDEVjqEcuxKrA0zOU/w640-h640/shabushi,%20Christmas%202023.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>family dinner at a hot pot and sushi buffet place</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br />John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-61467080245882635722023-12-22T21:15:00.000-08:002023-12-22T21:15:37.570-08:00Left-over Americans; dating and marriage problems explained<p> </p><p>I've been watching some "men's content" lately, about dating and other perspectives from conservative men on Youtube. Sure it's a little annoying in some ways, the biases and assumptions, but they make some good points. I think most of it even works, but of course not in the form most typically presented. It's all interesting to me as a set of social trends, even though it's not personally relevant.</p><p>One main point is that feminist women ruin dating experience for both men and women by sleeping around in their 20s and 30s, instead of seeking out committed relationships. This shrinks the pool of prospects for typical men, and some end up going through life single, as some women also do. Many men then "go their own way;" they drop the dating or long term pair bonding theme entirely.</p><p>Does this work though; is this really what is happening? Sure; it's partly that. Maybe the part that works best is that on dating apps 80% of all women select 20% of all men (or maybe it's 90-10, this is just the generality), and then 80% of all men select 80% of all women. It still doesn't go well for most people, beyond the 20% not getting matched, because most women can sleep with the smaller set of most attractive guys using the app, but there's no need for them to actually date anyone, because they are matched so often. It ends up working for hook-ups. To be clear I've never downloaded or used a dating app; I'm passing on the take I'm seeing described, generally relatively consistently, but as summarized here expressed from a narrow and biased perspective.</p><p>All this extends to relationships, per this repeated shared understanding, not just to casual physical encounters. Most women are trying to date a smaller set of more desirable guys, who are more attractive, wealthier, and to a lesser extent with a decent personality. The "hook-up" theme repeats in a different form; there is no need for those guys to settle for one relationship partner, so they can serial date. The women can too, just in a broader proportion related to who can participate. </p><p>The cycle--as described--doesn't end until those most desirable guys finally decide to settle down, and then the medium level of desirable women need to settle for whoever else is still around. Of course this is never presented as a theme everyone experiences; the traditional model for people just dating someone they like still works for many people, someone who has shared interests, without overriding concern over looks or wealth. Then these people can marry at any age, not just in their late 30s.</p><p>One more aside on this "desirability" theme, and I'll get to the details they propose, and how their model may be wrong. This type of content really embraces that use of a 10 point number scale for how attractive someone is, as if "a 6" might be a 5 or 7, but it's that clear, that you can objectively tell. I think that doesn't work, but still the general points don't change; physical attractiveness is a real thing, a main input to people choosing who they date or partner with in a longer term. </p><p>Judgement about attractiveness is consistent, just perhaps not that consistent. Then any of these content creator / influencer types allow that personality enters in, beyond wealth also being a factor for men, so they're not setting up a completely unreasonable model. They just overemphasize some patterns, and I think in the end they're missing one main one. It's easiest to specify by citing an example from a different culture.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Left-over women in China</h3><p><br /></p><p>This theme has been discussed for years, of how there is a large set of wealthy, attractive, desirable women in China who are left without marriage partners past the ages of 30 and 40. Why? Sources interpret this differently, but the main theme seems to be that women can date and marry up a level related to social hierarchy, or at their own level, but not "down." Attractiveness, the main emphasis in this Western social media commentary model, also enters in, but there is more focus on finding a relationship partner to solidify social role and position, and to start a family. This ties more to social status. </p><p><br /></p><p><b>As a result there are more higher level social status women than can pair up with the equivalent higher social status level men, and some lower status men remain single as well. </b>This is where all this is headed; I think this pattern underlies what is happening in the US much more than is recognized.</p><p><br /></p><p>It's hard to describe what that social status issue is like within Asian cultures. I live in Thailand now, and have for 16 years, and it's completely different from the US here. Let me give an example: you use different terms of respect for people of different social levels in Thailand, or even change formal language use slightly with different people. It's as if there would be three different words for "sir," and you would use whichever relates to that social connection, depending if they are on your social status level, or above or below it. The lower or even level term of respect might translate as closer to friend, dude, or bud, or to mate in British or Australian English. I can't describe how it all works, or how judgments work out on the fly, or at least it's too difficult and tiresome to offer examples, so I'll leave it at that. Social status is more important, much more immediately relevant in terms of daily interactions, and clearer to everyone. Then it also means more for who you should or can date or marry.</p><p>In the US there are the three classes defined by wealth, low, medium, and high, and those are a bit flexible related to potential for moving up or down. It's not the same thing. In the US as well someone could be born into a good family and not pursue wealth, and others would (or could) still recognize that they are from a different background, and placed higher, in a very rough sense. That's an odd exception. The same can happen in relation to "new money;" people can come from modest means and more common (lower) social level and never take up the status, perspective, and practices of the traditional higher class. No need to name names or types; you get it.</p><p>To me it works to set all that aside though; in general wealth defines social level, in the US. Or looked at a different way there just isn't the same emphasis on social status levels, even though to some extent it still works. There are sub-cultures, and even different language forms, that divide poor people from urban areas and wealthy people born into more affluent circumstances. </p><p>The language form social level marker is especially interesting. At my second engineering career job in Baltimore I met with forklift drivers who I literally could not understand, even though they were speaking English. The owners of my company were clearly "old money;" they could easily slip into speech patterns followed by NPR announcers, although one of two owners generally didn't, out of preference. My roommates there were "new money;" they were well off, and made a point of showing that off, often excessively, but it wasn't about being raised in a higher social level sub-group. They used the same generally neutral form of English I did.</p><p><br /></p><p>Back to the Chinese left-over women and men theme (higher status women, and lower status men), from a distance it looks like these women are not appealing because they are too independent, or too wealthy, out of reach for too many people to date or marry. Some of that could apply, but it seems the main root cause is this underlying imbalance, that women "marrying up" leads to gaps at the two related ends. Then whether any one person remains unmarried or not depends on lots of circumstances and inputs. The women tend to be urban, living in developed areas, and the men rural, retaining lower status roles in those places. </p><p><b>And that's it, the whole model and interpreted pattern. Here I'm going to claim that's part of what is going on in the US too, that it's one input.</b></p><p>I haven't supported this with any references. This runs long focusing on the Western social media commentary examples, the main theme. Although it applies to men and women <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=china+left+over+women&rlz=1C1GCEU_enTH1069TH1069&oq=china+left+over+women&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDM2NzFqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8">Google search</a> for the women's side turns up the most related content. This Wikipedia article on this "sheng nu" theme covers the basics:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>The National Bureau of Statistics of the People's Republic of China (NBS) and state census figures reported approximately 1 in 5 women between the ages of 25-29 remain unmarried.[1] In contrast, the proportion of unwed men in that age range is much higher, sitting at around 1 in 3.[4] In a 2010 Chinese National Marriage Survey, it was reported that 9 out of 10 men believe that women should be married before they are 27 years old.[1]...</b></p><p><b>...A study of married couples in China noted that men tended to marry down the socio-economic ladder.[4] "There is an opinion that A-quality guys will find B-quality women, B-quality guys will find C-quality women, and C-quality men will find D-quality women," says Huang Yuanyuan. "The people left are A-quality women and D-quality men. So if you are a leftover woman, you are A-quality."[1] A University of North Carolina demographer who studies China's gender imbalance, Yong Cai, further notes that "men at the bottom of society get left out of the marriage market, and that same pattern is coming to emerge for women at the top of society".[20]</b></p><p><br /></p><p>That's not what these "men's content" guys are saying at all; it's not even cited as a related input. They don't completely set aside this potential trend but it's not part of a main cause and effect, in that same form.</p><p>Note that there are many more Chinese women than men (related to birth selection by identified gender); that enters in. The proportion for people remaining single implies this is not even close to being a single main cause. The rest of that Wikipedia article unpacks all that.</p><p><br /></p><h4 style="text-align: left;">Reconsidering US culture</h4><p><br /></p><p>What if it's mostly this that is occurring in the US, instead of these individual behavior and perspective themes these social media content producers are proposing? We would expect the main people left out of finding long term partners to be higher status level women, which in the US probably really does translate back to looks more than wealth, or social image tied to family background and such. On the male side we would expect less desirable men to also suffer from this pattern, the "1s, 2s, and 3s," using their terminology and attractiveness ranking system. </p><p>Maybe this describes the pattern as well as what all of these content producers are proposing. At the end of this review it seems to need to be shifted a little, because the form is different. The range of women being left out includes more middle-range level of appeal potential partners, and then again more men at the lower level are left taking the hit, but also plenty in the middle.</p><p>It wouldn't need to apply only to people in their 30s and 40s, past the threshold of normal earlier life dating and mate selection. The same pattern would occur in everyone's teens and 20s; less attractive men would almost never date, and more attractive women mostly all would, but in the latter case it wouldn't work out as long term relationships for all those women, and also for few of those men.</p><p>These are already the basic points that I intended to make. So far I haven't cited any references, any sources describing these two sets of patterns, and of course I can do that. On the Chinese side interpretations can vary, so I've filtered those to a simple summary that rings true to me, with others focusing on other themes (eg. more independent women aren't as appealing within that cultural perspective). </p><p>I don't follow so much of this "men's content" that I can say that it's all consistent, but I have watched a good bit of it, and what seems to be 3 or 4 representative examples are all unified in perspective. </p><p>To be clear these are not related to the extremist "incel" theme perspective; that's something else. That does seem to translate these personal problems over to misogynist perspective range. More misogynist; these other guys are blaming women for the problem, for sure, often loosely tied back to "feminism," which isn't really one narrow theme, and people can interpret that however they like. A couple of related female content producers overlap with those themes, sharing related but different ideas, but I'm not getting into that here, or how a broad range of online discussion groups relate to all of this. It doesn't develop the core of what I've expressed further but I'll clarify the ideas by citing examples.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Men's content theme summary and citation</h3><p><br /></p><p>A fairly clear summary of the pattern I've described, the common model these guys promote, is presented in a commentary on a video of a woman describing dating problems <a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@hoe_math/video/7304008618414738730">here, on the Hoe Math" Tik Tok channel</a>.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjFJ91ENO-IChRNl-PZWv5oZhyPmXu2IVp47PPCS0wRvvNOlQmSCJDrjPJX3z0nUV75jsM6mZ3sbnoA7OLLaqpI66reJ0kYMIYLnTzyfngq1IW1J4lgHtVUdcnuOyioCSYfOGy1OnwxaC4SmKCYHFuQQvh5AGT32ZBJdrH-Pf1PKXduidfyJSKipAcmGwcm/s523/dating%20heirarchy%20chart%20(hoe%20math).jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="487" data-original-width="523" height="596" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjFJ91ENO-IChRNl-PZWv5oZhyPmXu2IVp47PPCS0wRvvNOlQmSCJDrjPJX3z0nUV75jsM6mZ3sbnoA7OLLaqpI66reJ0kYMIYLnTzyfngq1IW1J4lgHtVUdcnuOyioCSYfOGy1OnwxaC4SmKCYHFuQQvh5AGT32ZBJdrH-Pf1PKXduidfyJSKipAcmGwcm/w640-h596/dating%20heirarchy%20chart%20(hoe%20math).jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>To be clear I'm not accepting this as a universal, completely accurate model, or accepting these interpretations directly as offered. My point is that there is something to this. In this chart that guy explains how women can "date up" in relation to attractiveness and desirability (wealth + other factors), but then would need to "settle" for a longer term partner on their own level, or close to that. That women describing these same problems in the video he is commenting on really is just framing them in a different way, but seems to be covering the same issues.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEigtWK26AxWtqRVlIy4rN2qPA6y8KP3ewnWua95zyNm84fyML15PXLJJbOlBzvMI6KCzP-Kz4wqPVic6cEmSPx-74DZQWbjNs7j2iz5M0d69asqnu9BawbHFVLahYgsY8fFt-Oy6d26rf24BDhzoaYyZ6ZddsbWv2xNHm9JvD1x6XYpUmiI2C-jnusgIYQT/s585/hoe%20math%20screenshot.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="585" data-original-width="448" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEigtWK26AxWtqRVlIy4rN2qPA6y8KP3ewnWua95zyNm84fyML15PXLJJbOlBzvMI6KCzP-Kz4wqPVic6cEmSPx-74DZQWbjNs7j2iz5M0d69asqnu9BawbHFVLahYgsY8fFt-Oy6d26rf24BDhzoaYyZ6ZddsbWv2xNHm9JvD1x6XYpUmiI2C-jnusgIYQT/w490-h640/hoe%20math%20screenshot.jpg" width="490" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>Isn't this take misogynistic, since the channel name includes "hoe," and it's a critique of women's dating related self-awareness, putting all of the blame for these issues on women, when men are also involved? Sure, to some extent. That alone doesn't make it wrong, but I think it only partly works anyway. The parts that work better are interesting. It's too much to explore as a tangent here but some of this related framework seems insightful (<a href="https://youtu.be/lL13EeEhgag?si=c1T0fn5UMiazeyRN">explained here</a>):</p><p><br /></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhTAkJc6M_YykvvWXxlYtwubBBOY6oSXD3cE-To6Iilu1G43z63AHqb2lfY593748NrEH5u6lVd2BcJjiMlFRPIcbQXrGqmqAvz2gifm3gd0q4h2ZDJ0TCgPPr0ohw1WLgBSBMVC0JXH35RldhsWsqliLy2BQHrBAL5apjNimys48dG5XgyJpFl3BobGnOe" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="360" data-original-width="360" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhTAkJc6M_YykvvWXxlYtwubBBOY6oSXD3cE-To6Iilu1G43z63AHqb2lfY593748NrEH5u6lVd2BcJjiMlFRPIcbQXrGqmqAvz2gifm3gd0q4h2ZDJ0TCgPPr0ohw1WLgBSBMVC0JXH35RldhsWsqliLy2BQHrBAL5apjNimys48dG5XgyJpFl3BobGnOe=w640-h640" width="640" /></a></div><br /><br /><p></p><p>A second related channel is called Better Bachelor, with typical content summarized in this image and caption:</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgPsxU_7K-MvFkzNho-twOROlfrbrFOYIaBxN_-nrje4_3wiO0Tu8N3x4Ms1fz5L0e2Huf-5NL23TXrtmwIZbQvl4BsK9JtM_lVCX_LnJDZgd5Ca_W-3IwYtA5eBsl2ldpOVu7wYnwSGgDvY7sbTLonKLTNBRZX20FJptWWhUV6Q8lB12GqX4gRdbbmI9LR" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="595" data-original-width="1050" height="362" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgPsxU_7K-MvFkzNho-twOROlfrbrFOYIaBxN_-nrje4_3wiO0Tu8N3x4Ms1fz5L0e2Huf-5NL23TXrtmwIZbQvl4BsK9JtM_lVCX_LnJDZgd5Ca_W-3IwYtA5eBsl2ldpOVu7wYnwSGgDvY7sbTLonKLTNBRZX20FJptWWhUV6Q8lB12GqX4gRdbbmI9LR=w640-h362" width="640" /></a></div><br /><br /><p></p><p>Setting aside if these ideas completely work, or if they are misogynistic (both of which I already addressed), it's interesting that people would choose to watch this kind of content regularly. The main point is pretty simple: women have ruined dating, and all the more so marriage, and many men have turned away from it. Then why watch a video saying that every other day? It's not to get new information, although the graphic summary and breakdowns in the "Hoe Math" reference could work for that, it's to feel a connection to others experiencing the same thing, by way of viewing repetitive content. Eventually a new idea or extra twist would come up, but almost all of the content by all of these guys is nearly identical.</p><p>To clarify by adding one more detail, a common theme covered, these guys blame women for over-emphasizing their attractiveness (a little odd, really; that is somewhat universal Western culture now), and not showing modesty in clothing choices, and for sleeping with too many guys, the "body count" theme. Again the standard idea is that the most attractive guys, described as "chad" types, are sleeping with these women, serial dating or just hooking up, and these other guys are feeling left out, not participating in either. </p><p>This Better Bachelor content producer, who goes by the nickname Joker, admits that he dated a number of women when younger, and then all this pattern either dawned on him or set in as relevant (excluding him from being selected), once he reached a certain age. Or both, it seems. I don't doubt all that framing; I accept his take on his own background and perspective shift as genuine and accurate.</p><p>These two examples don't seem overly conservatively biased, or negative towards females in general, beyond blaming them entirely for a lack of awareness and the existence of these identified patterns (which probably is quite unfair, and is negative). The more desirable guys who sleep with them are related, of course, but for them--these guys offering the analysis--that's a natural choice for those guys, that the women should be avoiding. How? Dressing more conservatively, not sleeping around, and seeking out committed relationships prior to their late 30s. If the same guys saying that dated and slept with lots of women in their 20s it kind of doesn't work. Or I suppose it still could, just in a more limited form.</p><p>Rich Cooper works as an example of a more conservative and slightly more negative perspective, covering some of that in discussion <a href="https://youtu.be/zJuElD4Ajak?si=J4ke1Veohcpuzp7m">in this group discussion video</a> on male and female roles related to hookup culture, who is to blame. That particular video wasn't interesting, so not a great example; the point is to mention someone on a different part of the spectrum. He makes conclusions like "<a href="https://youtu.be/mnfF7NeKNHc?si=nBXM03T5f3Fav411">never date a single mother</a>," which can work as a personal preference mandate, but he offers it as good universal advice to all men, which I don't think applies well as a universal directive. The ex-girlfriend that I cared for most was a single mother, and caring for her daughter made it hard to accept the end of that relationship. It was a career focus and a move on her part that broke us up, as much as any one factor did, nothing to do with her status as a mother.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Take-aways</h3><p><br /></p><p>There is no point in considering all this unless someone is a part of those dating concerns. That excludes me, but I still find it an interesting cultural sub-theme.</p><p>I think the generalities those content producers identify all work, to a limited extent, but they require some placement. The ideas are generally offered as absolute truths and directives, when really they're just part of a broader range of causes and effects. I think the emphasis on blaming women for problems with men and women dating is essentially wrong; individuals need to sort out those issues as individuals and couples, both men and women.</p><p>They seem to never really pull back to the broader scope that the review of Chinese "leftover" single people often does; these broad patterns are going to cause some individuals to remain single, not just related to individual perspective and choices in single cases.</p><p><b>I see this as comparable to a game of musical chairs</b>; plenty of men and women do date and marry in their 20s, and plenty date around in their 20s and 30s instead. By around 40 many seek long term stability and family life, and some people are left out of that pairing up process. Men might date women a little younger, in some cases, but still the same pattern occurs for both in roughly the same age range. </p><p>What these guys are missing is that the people not pairing up, equivalent to those left standing in a musical chairs game, relate to a range of individual circumstances, only some of which they identify, but there are surely also general patterns in who is excluded. It doesn't work perfectly well to say that on the men's side those guys will be "1s, 2s, and 3s," and on the women's "9s, and 10s," but something like that could be happening. Or maybe it's not just that?</p><p>In the Hoe Math and Better Bachelor videos they thought the woman offering related commentary was attractive (the one cited and shown in an image here), probably a 7 per their judgment (or maybe an 8; she is pretty), so the pattern doesn't seem to completely match in this case. It seems like the form is different in the US problem, an outcome from everyone not trying to find a life-partner in their 20s. As those guys summarize women who are medium level attractive (6-8) can sleep with very attractive men, just not marry them, so on the US culture side that's the range that's experiencing even more problems, an even more vicious scramble "once the music stops" in their late 30s.</p><p>I don't know which inputs actually work as the main broad generality. Even following these "men's content" producers analysis men can "marry down" to an extent (again related more to attractiveness than social level as in China, with wealth more a factor for men), so it would seem plenty of the most attractive women would also end up remaining single. </p><p>To me all of this works better as food for thought than as a model for how relationships and dating patterns really work out in practice. It would all vary too much by individual experience. People can date whoever they want, and marry a partner for their own reasons, on their own time-table, with or without all this emphasis on appearance and wealth. Common interests, perspective, and values are being set aside too much in all this. But it's still interesting to consider.</p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-29093279294020397382023-12-19T06:01:00.000-08:002023-12-19T06:01:51.372-08:002003 Malaysian stored Nan Nuo sheng pu'er<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi_x3IAwM9Xofto0yQVO_gl0ht1seVQW9-ee_REowTRC1b2awMeFBlUrc7TWN5lRElT2Uy3UOz9dT4-jIZNGKd4hjoYPKHk_t_iCCegw7p51BePAkwwRYACC7LWYKtBDbZ2hCIXA7VMVL5RsGIBpG1s0xpfd-toQvGscpDDKd0HYlwgHWSB6jjbHLX6pWip/s863/Penang%20stored%20Nannuo%20from%202003%20IMG_20231216_110724.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="863" height="626" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi_x3IAwM9Xofto0yQVO_gl0ht1seVQW9-ee_REowTRC1b2awMeFBlUrc7TWN5lRElT2Uy3UOz9dT4-jIZNGKd4hjoYPKHk_t_iCCegw7p51BePAkwwRYACC7LWYKtBDbZ2hCIXA7VMVL5RsGIBpG1s0xpfd-toQvGscpDDKd0HYlwgHWSB6jjbHLX6pWip/w640-h626/Penang%20stored%20Nannuo%20from%202003%20IMG_20231216_110724.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>A new local tea friend passed on a sample of what seemed like quite promising aged sheng not long ago, a 2003 Nan Nuo sheng pu'er, that had been stored in Penang, Malaysia. It was really good. This isn't about that tea background or that friend, just about the experience. </p><p>It's local shop in-house product from that storage area, where he bought it, at <a href="https://www.facebook.com/tenyeetea.my">Ten Yee tea, this place</a>.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjOIJ4LYhe9acd_uEegh5TxDEno2CDaTp1mXZ29kPgiDvbSUqrAdaSXSLi2A2hRNANTVA9vYtl80AYYIJQ8desau0XCNW0G_c5LtR7YfQIXVU-jVqd9UEi1hfCBU02WvwWHBlh9Go23g1ZgvyqUSzbQAyeAshBMY80xMOtj2utha1ohR1q_GGWZs-TZsDzm/s845/Nannuo%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="633" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjOIJ4LYhe9acd_uEegh5TxDEno2CDaTp1mXZ29kPgiDvbSUqrAdaSXSLi2A2hRNANTVA9vYtl80AYYIJQ8desau0XCNW0G_c5LtR7YfQIXVU-jVqd9UEi1hfCBU02WvwWHBlh9Go23g1ZgvyqUSzbQAyeAshBMY80xMOtj2utha1ohR1q_GGWZs-TZsDzm/w480-h640/Nannuo%201.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Infusion # 1: </b> it's good, I guess. This round is subtle, even after a rinse, and I get the impression that it might stay subtle, regardless of how much it's pushed. Then that can still be fine, if the character present is positive, and if the depth added by extra feel and aftertaste add more impression of intensity and complexity. I think a broad range of high quality aged sheng, that many people really prefer, is all something I've not learned to appreciate. </p><p>I was just drinking an 8 year old Yiwu recently that highlighted how that goes. It wasn't in an optimum place, for not being absolutely and fully transitioned, but it was pretty far along, for having spent almost all that time here in Bangkok. Tones present were warm; it had lost all the youthful character, as far as you could tell. I think deeper tone aspect intensity will still increase, but it also might fade some more, not leaving much experience range to appreciate, some residual sense of depth and feel.</p><p>As flavors go this is clean, and warm in range (of course). Flavors are subtle enough that it's hard for me to break it down; it could be interpreted as mineral, leather, tobacco, spice, lots of different things. All that is positive; it lacks the woody character many lower quality sheng evolves towards. I'll try a next round brewed a little stronger.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgDlOVZY4W9hGIo_SsYnfN2aJATspQ6es7QL4-n05VkoU-GyEFFsFHQF34-oGBOzUyGryknCDXeKKLgFfPowzXqz9dcwsGBqDOTTiuSCvDF5Npet7EfaBbX-lpALgnfW08U0MvpBF03U_Uhd2zsGEiNuASY9sDJsEYowy4jVjz56wrRamJpflWsu4RGSZ5h/s845/Nannuo%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="633" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgDlOVZY4W9hGIo_SsYnfN2aJATspQ6es7QL4-n05VkoU-GyEFFsFHQF34-oGBOzUyGryknCDXeKKLgFfPowzXqz9dcwsGBqDOTTiuSCvDF5Npet7EfaBbX-lpALgnfW08U0MvpBF03U_Uhd2zsGEiNuASY9sDJsEYowy4jVjz56wrRamJpflWsu4RGSZ5h/w480-h640/Nannuo%202.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>#2:</b> it doesn't need to be quite this strong; it's nice that it could ramp up intensity and overshoot an optimum so quickly. Tones are much warmer. It includes a little geosmin, towards a dirt scent. It's clean in effect, so not the murky, earthy peat range shou often expresses, something else altogether. Storage inputs don't seem to contribute mustiness to it, or any off flavors, although those heavy tones must relate to fermentation transition and therefore indirectly to storage. </p><p>Mineral range is pronounced. Other earthy range is harder to place, more like the odd scent of driftwood. Even that mineral includes some novel range; people bring up petrichor, the scent after it rains, and one part might correspond to that. It seems like spice range might evolve further, as if that's there, but not easy to single out at this stage.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgaXKRrwQfrYAhIMqRqu_LGqSI42CT71XKOtSrjqJMmsyTQzipOSx-dHyXjOQgd10ZBtM9hKq1d2jKHzKnfx27yuzr-4kpVbnflOyWbbTPI37SjRa6xf8hJh_fNUT28uzAbw_qBBVoTAuIIdJ0ZLBCigVafDsS006mejpXbCa_ihnfTbXsyDHYK6L8TKnnY/s845/Nannuo%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="633" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgaXKRrwQfrYAhIMqRqu_LGqSI42CT71XKOtSrjqJMmsyTQzipOSx-dHyXjOQgd10ZBtM9hKq1d2jKHzKnfx27yuzr-4kpVbnflOyWbbTPI37SjRa6xf8hJh_fNUT28uzAbw_qBBVoTAuIIdJ0ZLBCigVafDsS006mejpXbCa_ihnfTbXsyDHYK6L8TKnnY/w480-h640/Nannuo%203.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>#3:</b> better with infusion strength dialed into my preference better. It's clearly good, I'm just not as clear on how well it matches my preference. I suspect that for people accustomed to appreciating better aged sheng that would come more naturally. Then it sounds like I might be implying that there is some objectively positive range everyone should learn to appreciate, and then agree on as positive. I don't see subjective preference that way, although that is the most common take on that theme in more experienced tea circles. You are supposed to like what others like, and all join together in appreciating high quality, and objectively positive tea aspects. Maybe I'm just behind the curve.</p><p>That heaviness from wet storage is easier to detect now, the familiar basement scent range. It wouldn't require the most humid range of storage to draw that out, but it would be heavier in wetter stored teas, and slightly different. It's so moderate here this doesn't taste like Malaysian stored tea. Maybe most of what I've tried of them--not many examples--weren't stored under ideal conditions.</p><p>The set of warm tones is interesting, how many interpretations might fit for that. It could be read as geosmin (dirt, sort of), warm mineral, including petrichor, leather, driftwood or aged wood, or within spice range, especially incense spice (the set I don't remember to distinguish between; frankincense, myhrr, sandalwood, and so on). Some would say this tastes like camphor. People seem to tend to attribute anything remotely like that to that description or to avoid using it, and for as distinctive and strong as actual camphor tends to be I don't make a connection so often. I would guess that this probably tastes a lot like one thing I'm not familiar with, probably within the aromatic incense spice range.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjEjyweGrVRlONUDODJR80D9zRQt38O6C86e0u5JQoN51dzJh5gU3fVPjrNb_3cGU1j8cljXDhfkiiBcPUwxnkmUVn8fj0cKu_FrJn4evHhWGLRk-OMgGjABBROSBJRGhQ137CW_p37DBlm1vjsRqdxw4icgmRXLqLLC_tnR6qvHC2jnXenxB9SJIEzf0GY/s845/Nannuo%204.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="633" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjEjyweGrVRlONUDODJR80D9zRQt38O6C86e0u5JQoN51dzJh5gU3fVPjrNb_3cGU1j8cljXDhfkiiBcPUwxnkmUVn8fj0cKu_FrJn4evHhWGLRk-OMgGjABBROSBJRGhQ137CW_p37DBlm1vjsRqdxw4icgmRXLqLLC_tnR6qvHC2jnXenxB9SJIEzf0GY/w480-h640/Nannuo%204.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>#4: </b> it's a little cleaner, maybe from evolving through earlier rounds, losing slight rough edges, or else maybe just from brewing intensity variation. I'd expect that it is transitioning. This is probably a good place to take a round off descriptions and cover where it shifts to next round.</p><p>Related to this being too subtle that concern largely dropped out, but of course it's not in the intensity and complexity range of factory teas, aged to any extent under any conditions. It's not far off, and preference would determine if this level is better, as good, or not as favorable. Again I get this impression many would see this general character as somewhat optimum, maybe even objectively and in general, not just in relation to their own preference.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhLxYDfycWI6-f6kC8y266VC3V6nWqBf4Bdap3SZ5x9hfgNyB1HgVmVeqKheSOinwSfo2hderV1iBldxKEa7HEmln_I8OVLpZcH9ChT2l3gYvYO3oQv7-B9ekUurK7vmnBCxcRXtLFI7IkbMEFQnZ_NobQMUCd40Id7TMN5qWrMVllaFuU5KXQ4ftfAxCu4/s845/Nannuo%205.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="633" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhLxYDfycWI6-f6kC8y266VC3V6nWqBf4Bdap3SZ5x9hfgNyB1HgVmVeqKheSOinwSfo2hderV1iBldxKEa7HEmln_I8OVLpZcH9ChT2l3gYvYO3oQv7-B9ekUurK7vmnBCxcRXtLFI7IkbMEFQnZ_NobQMUCd40Id7TMN5qWrMVllaFuU5KXQ4ftfAxCu4/w480-h640/Nannuo%205.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>#5: </b> it's not ideal for a tasting write-up that this is going to go through subtle shifts in flavors I'm not familiar with. The range is pleasant. In order to place how much or how little I like it I keep considering how often I would want to drink this, or teas quite similar to it. Not too often, even completely setting aside any issues related to cost or access. I like younger sheng experience more, and to me there is something catchy about an aged version that retains more intensity and complexity, that doesn't just present a decent balance of an integrated and similar flavor range, that leans toward the subtle side. This isn't an example of a tea that completely faded; that's something else. But it does express a narrow range of positive flavor, and that's it.</p><p>It's nice doing a single version tasting, not struggling to make it to these rounds for ingesting too much tea. It still gets old writing notes and spending the time focusing.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>#6: </b> it improves, a little, a first change in a couple of rounds. Aromatic spice range is different and more pronounced. Feel gains a bit of sappiness, a little more complexity, and aftertaste extends just a little, where before it had been limited. I suppose with a limited range of positive transition, or just any variation, that judgment from the last round would shift a little, and it would seem more pleasant and interesting. It seemed like minor shift in infusion strength and some transition on the tea's side caused that.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>#7:</b> intensity might be fading a little; it's probably time to extend infusion time slightly. The same catchy main flavor aspect from last round stands out.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>#8:</b> Complexity and intensity is good, and flavor range is positive. This probably does continuously taste more and more like camphor. I get the sense that many others would really love and value this tea and tea experience. It's ok for me, pleasant and novel, nice for the quality level and style being quite favorable. If I was drinking better aged sheng more frequently maybe I would like it even more, related to being dialed in to appreciate the range more. </p><p><br /></p><p><b>#9:</b> I lost track of timing messing around online and brewed this for at least a minute; of course it's a lot stronger. The effect is still pleasant that way. A camphor aspect had already been stronger, and it stands out all the more brewed at a higher intensity. The rest dials up too, warmer mineral tone, mild and clean geosmin input, spice range, and what could be interpreted as aromatic wood. It's nice.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusion:</h3><p><br /></p><p>If anything it was as positive or more so for a few more longer late rounds; it was nice the way it finished so strong, in a couple of senses. This started a little slow but turned out to be one of the higher quality sheng versions I've ever tried, never mind just recently.</p><p>It made me think through my preferences a bit, about what range I might explore if my tea budget was more open, and if I would acclimate to preference to teas like this. Maybe. As things stand it was a pleasant and novel experience.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-43203460631399656652023-12-18T00:57:00.000-08:002023-12-18T00:57:12.960-08:00Thai Coffee and Tea Fest Expo<p> </p><p>I recently attended a Thailand Coffee and Tea Fest Expo, in the Queen Sirikit Convention Center. Typically those events aren't worth attending, related to specialty tea interest, but I had a good experience once meeting an owner of the Kokang Myanmar tea producer so it's easy to be more hopeful than expectations can support. That was an event up at Impact, an hour north of city center, probably listed as the <a href="https://coffeeculture.asia/upcoming-coffee-festivals-in-thailand-for-2022-2023/">Thailand Coffee Fest here</a>, not even mentioning tea in the event title. That event summary article author was not aware of this event planning.</p><p>The short version is that it was a bust; there was no Chinese tea there, and no Thai specialty tea (no Indian tea either; I'll get to what was there). There was mostly coffee, of course, and then in tea range also matcha, and very little in the way of other tea scope. Only two booths, beyond matcha scope: a Harney and Sons version, and another selling blends that were essentially in the same range. I tried a couple of Harney and Sons teas; they were nice. I might have considered buying a jasmine green tea version they were selling, that I had tried, except that they only sold it in a tea-bag version, and I'd prefer loose tea. At least they were promoting tea.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEieyZEBzwRoHosmQL73S7TZuSYBD81erc3whMHI1K6JT9vg7tMKiRQIL-ZSE5sF6YaNsXcW9lotlPBkXkulPnJoaM9E2-ukz2fGXiY0RdvyGnP-UiQcgGEW-WviDXKqen8VSXzp2Msz09E8go7ht7HIu5Ln7ku-p4WhyphenhyphenKvfsgxWTrELr4TwKeIuRgC57zRW/s1127/IMG_20231216_170522.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEieyZEBzwRoHosmQL73S7TZuSYBD81erc3whMHI1K6JT9vg7tMKiRQIL-ZSE5sF6YaNsXcW9lotlPBkXkulPnJoaM9E2-ukz2fGXiY0RdvyGnP-UiQcgGEW-WviDXKqen8VSXzp2Msz09E8go7ht7HIu5Ln7ku-p4WhyphenhyphenKvfsgxWTrELr4TwKeIuRgC57zRW/w640-h480/IMG_20231216_170522.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>I met an old friend, Pop / Danitha, who is an owner of <a href="https://www.facebook.com/kototeaspace">Koto Tea Space</a>, a cafe that also sells matcha, there promoting the matcha sales. She guessed that there was no Chinese tea because it was mainly directed towards shop owners, not tea enthusiasts, so there would only be booths carrying what small shops or cafes would want to buy. I didn't see anything related to bubble tea there, so that theory doesn't seem to completely hold up, but it could still be mostly right. At any rate Chinese tea just wasn't happening, or even Thai tea. I've seen Thai producers host booths at that sort of thing before, and vendors oriented towards Chinese teas, but it just didn't happen to be there.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiRaes88pqHrUvdNWelg4JMuPsbC2LSjVreGXyA8umjWt0jT8dZ_cF4dJ-tNxt6cHsmf6Q_gFv2MOxZnpih-712hO_79lkmzhnYPbH9E35UM6IINPhsPknNKl7IuKfcuUq-x5fedlTYG-Qwg6R5LL_e6JKldWaVMqkf4aaKsJdNIHqZBQXLye8fW5cCtvk6/s1127/IMG_20231216_172008.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiRaes88pqHrUvdNWelg4JMuPsbC2LSjVreGXyA8umjWt0jT8dZ_cF4dJ-tNxt6cHsmf6Q_gFv2MOxZnpih-712hO_79lkmzhnYPbH9E35UM6IINPhsPknNKl7IuKfcuUq-x5fedlTYG-Qwg6R5LL_e6JKldWaVMqkf4aaKsJdNIHqZBQXLye8fW5cCtvk6/w640-h480/IMG_20231216_172008.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>Lots of matcha related shops were; maybe less than 10, but close enough to that. That's still not so much compared to dozens of booths and larger vendors there relating to coffee. It was nice seeing so many small roaster or importer outlets for coffee; apparently that interest is booming. There were ample equipment sales for that, and larger and more elaborate vendor booths from larger mainstream vendors. There were even coffee brewing events, which weren't running just then, but there were notices about them.</p><p>There were a few shops selling ceramics, hand made coffee and teaware cups; those were nice. One let me try coffee in two different cups, claiming that this would change the sensory / aspect experience. It didn't seem to, to me. I have a badly deviated septum so my sense of smell isn't great. The related aromatic flavor component sensation that occurs in your rear nasal passages seems more normal, that it doesn't cost me much in terms of sense of flavor, but I guess that I would never really know.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhiVWP9OTNvBqjIXSJBemUD-obIEA0DOIEn7vjhl9CcaHB7PjofITxWRxwP5nLQmduiWkkOBnD9xZ55MteTaOScr2KJ2HKAcSrD8WFThOQLYS_f_Rbk8fAXo5TfV4d6LQDYtXsAP2re7Bfwi1cgryU12GWO0mHqJAb9TttRtnKNbuj7TFezxUikbs4QeN_b/s1127/IMG_20231216_165759.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhiVWP9OTNvBqjIXSJBemUD-obIEA0DOIEn7vjhl9CcaHB7PjofITxWRxwP5nLQmduiWkkOBnD9xZ55MteTaOScr2KJ2HKAcSrD8WFThOQLYS_f_Rbk8fAXo5TfV4d6LQDYtXsAP2re7Bfwi1cgryU12GWO0mHqJAb9TttRtnKNbuj7TFezxUikbs4QeN_b/w640-h480/IMG_20231216_165759.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>teaware from Aoon Pottery & As.is</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg3b0x14YBg3aTj0qpdhw6-I9rXNk7wQEWUcW4CGNdUo6D3q7VgoQlyBJzAW7I3sQ8qm4iMHgi0gm8bMvtvsXaqTsCCi48nQgQTDIRb8v34N-iyKYtG1cQI-nkMnriBqlTTc3NhbambYxC2_uGcboxNdZnOTT9lDDX0GiaT4BmOS29nhOQCpuHhA1_7UhAb/s1127/IMG_20231216_170036.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg3b0x14YBg3aTj0qpdhw6-I9rXNk7wQEWUcW4CGNdUo6D3q7VgoQlyBJzAW7I3sQ8qm4iMHgi0gm8bMvtvsXaqTsCCi48nQgQTDIRb8v34N-iyKYtG1cQI-nkMnriBqlTTc3NhbambYxC2_uGcboxNdZnOTT9lDDX0GiaT4BmOS29nhOQCpuHhA1_7UhAb/w640-h480/IMG_20231216_170036.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the small black ones had the nicest feel, but I usually use white cups</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p>Pop's main business is the Koto Tea Space, and it represented the closest thing to a specialty tea theme in the event (really a related supply company, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/chajinteasupply">Chajin Tea Supply</a>). They had exhibits about matcha, and offered samples of a few kinds. I tried matcha with coconut. It was ok, but the umami isn't all that familiar to me, so it also just tasted like seaweed. I've drank matcha before, and have reviewed a number of sencha and gyokuro versions in this blog, but I'm far removed from that experience now since it has been awhile. A good version of matcha bumps the umami experience to an unfamiliar level, and the coconut flavor input made it harder to relate to instead of easier, or at least it seemed that way. </p><p>It was nice talking about Pop's business theme, how all that goes, but it doesn't seem relevant to a summary of expo experience here. Her cafe would be interesting to check out, off to one side of Chinatown, more or less, and they hold different themed tastings, of course all related to Japanese teas.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiVWqd50xBpxXBi6Y_3UmJLqTkOYZ_hOF891tvOpP7d5SHp44qvblqlccMYfQUbb20sYnhpSsPZk9QmvDimUXHYq1k8VITvGuO6C8HlYnfhstY3_QV05UwL8yaShpLZN3bmNS1VnDhaAO49vEbjCGQkoKS2YvB7O8ShB5-n6HGceTebFU-Y1UoCMvKkly0y/s1127/IMG_20231216_172222.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiVWqd50xBpxXBi6Y_3UmJLqTkOYZ_hOF891tvOpP7d5SHp44qvblqlccMYfQUbb20sYnhpSsPZk9QmvDimUXHYq1k8VITvGuO6C8HlYnfhstY3_QV05UwL8yaShpLZN3bmNS1VnDhaAO49vEbjCGQkoKS2YvB7O8ShB5-n6HGceTebFU-Y1UoCMvKkly0y/w640-h480/IMG_20231216_172222.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>her related tea supply business, what was represented there</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p>That was really about it. I tried a jasmine white tea from Harney and Sons, and that one at Pop's station. There was one other stall selling Thai flavored teas that I didn't really explore, and beyond that there was only more matcha.</p><p><br /></p><p>So I walked around a rice expo beside that coffee and tea version, and ended up buying red and black Thai rice. I've had a black version of black sticky rice (glutinous rice, khao neow) but never black standard rice. My wife is into brown and other colored rice versions, so red rice is familiar. It's not usually as delicious as white rice, but I bought it for her, not out of my own interest.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgZDxeoK15SqB75hK_ajLDcqaqOKRjXz7xfhhOPTUxnQk5eb3VCp0GREqYuzJ00ZBqq-rEWsoIlSS8rplHYVCFC7lXQNIxN-i3uliZXAD1KTWfMh1us1-vL2I6rxnsPqWQXm5AbYBX3GMaWdVuuRBzMbXigrAcXIRn_skuBaUMLH9ALo0ltlQjAO-DuTD2C/s1127/IMG_20231216_174747.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgZDxeoK15SqB75hK_ajLDcqaqOKRjXz7xfhhOPTUxnQk5eb3VCp0GREqYuzJ00ZBqq-rEWsoIlSS8rplHYVCFC7lXQNIxN-i3uliZXAD1KTWfMh1us1-vL2I6rxnsPqWQXm5AbYBX3GMaWdVuuRBzMbXigrAcXIRn_skuBaUMLH9ALo0ltlQjAO-DuTD2C/w640-h480/IMG_20231216_174747.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>two kgs of rice was 200 baht, about $6, a good price</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p>It would've seemed more anticlimactic if that wasn't what I expected to occur. I would've thought a main Thai oolong producer might have been there, or another commercial tea vendor, along the lines of Harney and Sons, but just something else. A couple of places had matcha ice cream for sale; that was a nice extra offering, but I didn't buy any.</p><p>It's kind of a shame that there isn't more going on with tea in Thailand. That expo didn't represent all of it, of course. Oolong production is fairly mainstream, and the sheng "pu'er" versions I keep writing about are appreciated by some people. I just wrote about a dozen of my favorite or most popular tea outlets in Bangkok, and nothing in that expo related at all to any of that, except that I mentioned Pop's business there.</p><p>The contrast with coffee tells the story. There were about 40 or 50 small booths related to independent coffee companies, and then at least a dozen larger businesses represented in much more elaborate settings. Some had a lot of espresso machines and such on display, and some simulated cafe or physical store environments in well-crafted structures. It's like how beer companies manage displays in such event exhibits, just not quite that elaborate, without the music, activities, and enthusiastic staff. Then for tea there was a mixed range of a dozen booths, with not a single one really focused on loose specialty tea. Harney and Son's selling tins of tea bags was the closest to that; not much of what was there even seemed to be loose tea. Of course I gave it a quick survey, not really a thorough review, since if loose English Breakfast Blend turned up I wouldn't want that anyway.</p><p>Specialty tea is not having a moment in Thailand or in Bangkok, per my experience, not just at that expo. It does help to clarify that small shops selling brewed tea that source loose tea versions, probably typically mostly low grade Shui Xian, buy that from Chinatown shops, so there is no need for a new vendor to hype a new form of that offering. The oolong that was missing was a real gap; usually one of the main producers will promote their versions in events like that. I suppose that never related to enough extra business level sales to keep up with attending events. Bubble tea is absolutely everywhere in Bangkok; it's odd there weren't a couple of supply companies selling versions of that, or maybe there were and I overlooked them.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhSyXQph9FEIahfOs2gE-mVE_edvDxwexPIMJCYS_pTw_gR_3BsO1skxABxsin3VgotxHxfdJE4M_7echaDgsWchrB4QIgLPoEYSJyQu-nID1cOkuBJTtyJiTSILTPQksX-rqtzaDgXN7FgI0JzbWPtUafhVd46axsbnf3Xfl9hj9RI5bS_aJI-yKG4cxIh/s1127/IMG_20231216_164302.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhSyXQph9FEIahfOs2gE-mVE_edvDxwexPIMJCYS_pTw_gR_3BsO1skxABxsin3VgotxHxfdJE4M_7echaDgsWchrB4QIgLPoEYSJyQu-nID1cOkuBJTtyJiTSILTPQksX-rqtzaDgXN7FgI0JzbWPtUafhVd46axsbnf3Xfl9hj9RI5bS_aJI-yKG4cxIh/w640-h480/IMG_20231216_164302.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>city view from the convention center; a nice walking and running track surrounds that lake</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhg9cyePs1jnjNlM5WvxNqPEE1C7sikFtLU2GWcYJ_VWOJ56uWc5yruzU9LnOki3leQ4lx4HdL4kN6BiyN7TimeCPGYyj5qTLm91WV7_uCgteSUx9rexxmyH6_QwBt9enbSog2q1671B3nMgLa8gfz4ZDzeXb0nON3pkpG6Ye6wHfVRGC2ar7eJXEUY3ds7/s1127/IMG_20231216_180854.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhg9cyePs1jnjNlM5WvxNqPEE1C7sikFtLU2GWcYJ_VWOJ56uWc5yruzU9LnOki3leQ4lx4HdL4kN6BiyN7TimeCPGYyj5qTLm91WV7_uCgteSUx9rexxmyH6_QwBt9enbSog2q1671B3nMgLa8gfz4ZDzeXb0nON3pkpG6Ye6wHfVRGC2ar7eJXEUY3ds7/w640-h480/IMG_20231216_180854.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the sunset later on</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br />John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-82489827361885380202023-12-11T06:41:00.000-08:002023-12-11T06:41:49.255-08:00Comparing 2016 and 2017 Vietnamese and Thai sheng versions<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjssqil3lwV31Yq3oD-mEXs_4OPy_KcMrIcg2fFItlQPyOsximSDVPuUAgiks7ACz9Xz9keCry6ZcEWAQx_k0vSsJf3W5IanN2saX5I3dIuaZ2ewG1qaaRJeYgKbZ_fKXBlbjohs-EECoU96W6zeuikTwFiw4sXuOpCC1MgRWHtS2jyZgSdBm2eCUgYwKxd/s1127/VS%20and%20Thai%20sheng%20comparison.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjssqil3lwV31Yq3oD-mEXs_4OPy_KcMrIcg2fFItlQPyOsximSDVPuUAgiks7ACz9Xz9keCry6ZcEWAQx_k0vSsJf3W5IanN2saX5I3dIuaZ2ewG1qaaRJeYgKbZ_fKXBlbjohs-EECoU96W6zeuikTwFiw4sXuOpCC1MgRWHtS2jyZgSdBm2eCUgYwKxd/w640-h480/VS%20and%20Thai%20sheng%20comparison.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>I've been going on and on about how some South East Asian sheng versions don't have the right character to age well, and here's a chance to look into that further. One sample Steve of Viet Sun passed on with an order from them, and another Wawee Tea passed on with an order from them (many thanks to both!). Let's see how they are.</p><p>It's interesting considering vendors' takes on teas, which I typically never review prior to making tasting notes, as I didn't this time either. Here's the Viet Sun listing:</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.vietsuntea.com/product-page/th%C6%B0%E1%BB%A3ng-s%C6%A1n-2016">Thượng Sơn 2016</a> (selling for $98 for a standard 357 gram cake; not bad)</p><p><br /></p><p><b>A really nice tea from Thượng Sơn, Hà Giang made in the spring of 2016.</b></p><p><b>This along with the Thượng Sơn 2022 tea really showcase just how special the Thượng Sơn terroir is.</b></p><p><b>This tea was made from the same plus a couple of adjacent ancient tree gardens as the Thượng Sơn 2022 and was processed in a smiliar manner.</b></p><p><b>This tea has been aging in climate controlled storage (around 24-27 degrees Celsius and 70 degrees humidity). It still retains its heady alpine fragrance but has taken on some pleasing camphor and fragrant wood/ caramel notes. Heavy sweetness and low-medium bitterness/ astringency.</b></p><p><b>Rich huigan and strong qi. Nice tea for evenings and cooler days.</b></p><p><b>I enjoy drinking this one along with its 2022 counterpart to really get an idea of the transition from the new tea to its current state.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Interesting! Specific interpretation never matches between people passing on impressions but that does match my general take on the tea. It was good; more complex, intense, and positively transitioned than I expected, by a good bit.</p><p><br /></p><p>I couldn't find any sort of product listing for the Wawee version, and search only brought up <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv4xbM_hKyW/">this Instagram mention of it:</a></p><p>Wawee Tea 2017 sheng (Pitakvavee Series):</p><p><b>Raw Pu-erh tea, aged 7 years.</b></p><p><b>Net weight 357 g.</b></p><p><b>The taste is very sweet and juicy.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>So they were selling this as cakes, even though the sample they sent me hadn't been pressed, it was maocha / loose. "Sweet and juicy" isn't much to go on, but I can see if that matches. I've already reviewed this tea, so I know what to expect; here it's more for a point of comparison with the other. </p><p>It had aging potential; it's not going to be a version that just fades away, or starts to just taste like wood, as some versions can. I already knew that it was good, and pleasant to drink at this age, even though I end up speculating that this aging / fermentation stage might not be optimum.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review: </h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiB2OxbOWjaBtvaUZOvyBCu1GTzpuvbY9c6t9825VtkJ3BiQKY2Lg7T_8-RU0RvGq8MyLIRPyobQDLKndud7uTt7lF6BvGFjt-Jbm1d4swJilHMQUkcMWUycRKOqzgdR6KCJdh7pTdGuN47ZPD7XSgIQz902PiZWia1hGyeiQQyZGVTKEKfMAkUbHD6kyi5/s1127/VS%20and%20WT%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiB2OxbOWjaBtvaUZOvyBCu1GTzpuvbY9c6t9825VtkJ3BiQKY2Lg7T_8-RU0RvGq8MyLIRPyobQDLKndud7uTt7lF6BvGFjt-Jbm1d4swJilHMQUkcMWUycRKOqzgdR6KCJdh7pTdGuN47ZPD7XSgIQz902PiZWia1hGyeiQQyZGVTKEKfMAkUbHD6kyi5/w640-h480/VS%20and%20WT%201.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Thuong So Spring 2016 sheng: </b> interesting! Warm mineral base stands out first, and a complex feel structure. This is barely started infusing, so these will just be initial thoughts. It's pretty far through aging transition. Seven years is awhile, but it can just depend on storage conditions, and this was fairly tightly pressed. I've tried decade old sheng that wasn't nearly as far through transition, surely stored under drier conditions. </p><p>The general character of this is fine, as it should be, not a case of a sheng version seeming to fade or oxidize more than it fermentation transitions. Feel might include a little extra dryness. It's as well to hold off on flavor list and other judgments until next round. I can add that I've tried a purple leaf version that was among the driest in feel of any teas I've ever had recently, a Yunnan sheng version, and this isn't completely unlike that, just not nearly as intense (that related dry feel).</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Wawee Tea 2017 sheng (Pitakvavee Series): </b> much lighter, just in appearance alone. A different mineral base stands out in this, a drier version, which also includes some warm tones. This is going to be a mineral intensive session! Complex flavors and some sweetness is already developing, even though this is barely started. It seems warmer toned than the color implies that it would. Feel has more conventional sheng astringency structure than the other version.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhErb5o5z79i4lK888UEBh5oF-6HLGU5SYaKfTrHpVujljHJTwp3tHH0Atp89y03leHP8DO9h5gOrNX49ua1ZYJ6YiDQSGtIyjVYFcD2KguVDSO2_FLVhK1OkM4pUNYUHQIPp4tbeUSSc50Z5YG3Vfjweqd4u-05Ila92Ho16KvGI6vJejbJodcF5y7Sv9z/s1127/VS%20and%20WT%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhErb5o5z79i4lK888UEBh5oF-6HLGU5SYaKfTrHpVujljHJTwp3tHH0Atp89y03leHP8DO9h5gOrNX49ua1ZYJ6YiDQSGtIyjVYFcD2KguVDSO2_FLVhK1OkM4pUNYUHQIPp4tbeUSSc50Z5YG3Vfjweqd4u-05Ila92Ho16KvGI6vJejbJodcF5y7Sv9z/w640-h480/VS%20and%20WT%202.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Vietnamese sheng, round 2: </b> brewed tea color evened up in the two versions quite a bit; interesting. There are inconsistent colors in this tea version. The other leaves vary some in color but not like this.</p><p>A slight mustiness from storage input (probably) stands out. This is going to infuse and transition differently related this being a hard pressed cake, versus the other maocha. After next round it will be completely wetted but the layered sheets of leaves only came apart so much initially. As a result flavors that would typically transition through over the first two rounds could last into the fourth.</p><p>The dryness eases up already, but it's still a dominant aspect. Even next round may be early to determine how this aged, what it might have been like initially, and what potential for further transition remains. Then it's always odd trying teas as 6 and 7 year old versions, really right in between an early 3 or 4 years of transition being favorable and a fuller 15 to 20 year cycle being the next stage it makes sense to experience. I just reviewed two Dayi 7542 versions in a similar age range for the same purpose, to become accustomed to that middle level aging range, to compare versions. Both of these are as soft and approachable as Tie Guan Yin oolong compared to those, a completely different range of tea. Better luck with flavor list breakdown next round, or the one after.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Thai sheng: </b> this is moving through an infusion transition cycle much faster so any direct comparison would be more about that, related to this being maocha, to being fully wetted. It's pleasant. A broad and intense mix of mineral tones stand out, with limited bitterness, moderate but nice sweetness, and other complex flavors. </p><p>I think listing flavors next round will still make as much sense, once early round transitions are completely settled out. It tastes of age already, on to old books or furniture related flavors, a bit ahead of schedule. Maybe that's from storage conditions input, that these were stored in a wood paneled room environment? Spending years in a place with lots of very old tea might have entered in as well.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhcS8-0WYpf6ejCwkGrx5fBsEmdNmYWTBpkr4XUmEYCyHZHbNl_jrSfjaMBJIned59sSE3iN8vABvYqq2Tn7xoG6cGzLSl_IUK6qt07gIfxtfnagPNDCHTUdFdOK96IeVgecR-ac-WT34i_1hxmMDpYRC0EKRyR8BDl6cT9gPeBJs5qhco23fkgQPky5DrI/s1127/VS%20and%20WT%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhcS8-0WYpf6ejCwkGrx5fBsEmdNmYWTBpkr4XUmEYCyHZHbNl_jrSfjaMBJIned59sSE3iN8vABvYqq2Tn7xoG6cGzLSl_IUK6qt07gIfxtfnagPNDCHTUdFdOK96IeVgecR-ac-WT34i_1hxmMDpYRC0EKRyR8BDl6cT9gPeBJs5qhco23fkgQPky5DrI/w640-h480/VS%20and%20WT%203.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Vietnamese #3 </b>(brewed a little lightly; it seems time to ease up on intensity): complexity keeps ramping up, and the clean character shines through (not that it was musty before, but it picks up depth and richness, and that early dryness is dropping out fast). This is quite nice. </p><p>Lighter tones pick up; that's interesting. A hint of something along the line of lemongrass or citrus shines through. It joins plenty of warmer tones, tied to earlier character. Mineral is still a strong base but moderate now, more integrated. I bet a medium strength infusion next round will show completely different character again, which is always an interesting experience, lots of transition that includes adding complexity and overall improvement.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Thai: </b> this becomes more complex too, and also softens some, the transitions just aren't as dramatic as for the other, since it started brewing faster. A green wood tone stands out. It probably sounds better to describe that as a mix of warm and also light mineral base coupled with spice range, identified and broken apart a bit more. The aged character aspect faded some already, but it's still present. </p><p>There is no challenging range, as with the 7542 versions I just reviewed, but some edgier feel and flavor range is somewhat comparable, just as such a more moderate level that it's not as much something to endure, or struggle to brew around, as is true of 6 or 7 year old 7542 versions. I'm not sure this is at a fermentation transition stage that makes the most sense, that it wouldn't have been better 3 years ago, or wouldn't be even better yet in another 10. </p><p>This tea has (/ had) aging potential; that was and is true of both of these teas. They're just on a completely different cycle than those more intense Yunnan factory sheng, which need a full 20 years of somewhat humid storage (moderate or high) to draw into a more fully aged range, where after 20 you might want to leave it sit a few more years to see how it keeps changing. Related compounds in these teas will also change over a 20 to 25 year cycle, but they're drinkable now, at 6 or 7 years along. Not optimum now; not even close, probably.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg3BXu-6OHnjXX6E1RV4LvuSfcYWuBpL1IQ6h2l6a2FXi_xG6Pp-C6LPQdaIrcDr2RG8s8a_w5yBO5SDeEbbBk0LurZGCYnSPgzMMbqCapbnpUoygIcW4QKCJN2WYW_tBzU3ud1bLAA1UE-ArJ0eY3tUWcCj-Sk1NXX7qUhB0kQijGGqWL-9_41Oqrlur2V/s1127/VS%20and%20WT%204.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1127" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg3BXu-6OHnjXX6E1RV4LvuSfcYWuBpL1IQ6h2l6a2FXi_xG6Pp-C6LPQdaIrcDr2RG8s8a_w5yBO5SDeEbbBk0LurZGCYnSPgzMMbqCapbnpUoygIcW4QKCJN2WYW_tBzU3ud1bLAA1UE-ArJ0eY3tUWcCj-Sk1NXX7qUhB0kQijGGqWL-9_41Oqrlur2V/w640-h480/VS%20and%20WT%204.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Vietnamese, #4: </b>this is really hitting it's stride. The balance of all the aspects works so much better than early rounds. That's not unusual; often the first couple of rounds of a sheng can seem edgy or not developed yet, and harder pressed versions that didn't separate as well might take an extra round. The same aspects are present but it's just much more pleasant and well-balanced. Dryness is all but gone, related to being a dominant aspect early on, falling back to fill in a decent feel structure, that comes across as rich and almost sappy (not quite, but towards that). Mineral and other rich flavor tones fill in, with a brighter and lighter range integrating and complementing that. </p><p>It doesn't "break apart" easily. A richer tone might be along the line of a warm spice input, or that and also including something like dried tamarind. The lighter range is subtle, easy to miss, but that leans towards citrus, or maybe lemongrass works better. It's funny how there's a lot going on but it comes across as all one thing, as an integrated set.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Thai:</b> this is the best it has been yet too; both of these teas don't disappoint. A light, dry mustiness is all but completely faded now, integrated with the rest as a secondary input. Warm, rich tones dominate. What had seemed a little like green wood last round has transitioned to a more aromatic wood tone, close to spice range, along the line of cedar. People don't seek out cedar flavor as a favorite in sheng experience but it works in this, balanced with the rest. </p><p>Mind you both of these are not peaking at this point in transition, per my interpretation and preference. This is about judging style and potential as much as drinking these for the best aging input representation of these teas. I'm going to skip guessing how humid and warm the conditions were where these were stored; maybe I could make sense speculating about that, but it probably wouldn't add much, or be informative. </p><p>[<b>later edit</b>: Steve added that the Vietnamese version was naturally stored, in conditions relating to whatever occurred outside, for two years, and then was in controlled storage the rest of the time, from 24 to 27 degrees held at 70% humidity. There's a good chance the Thai version was naturally stored, at that humidity during the wetter season and a good bit drier otherwise. 27 is air conditioned indoor temperature in Bangkok--around 80 F--but I think up north that can be more of a normal temperature range, and it tends to get much cooler at night].</p><p>They're both not the lighter, sweeter, less structured style of sheng that I keep referring to, versions that you should either drink brand new or within 3 or 4 years of aging. Maybe they were fine back then but they still have potential to age transition positively. They give up plenty of intensity to standard factory sheng versions, to Dayi numbered series teas or Xiaguan, but then what doesn't. That's not necessarily a clearly good or bad thing; it depends on preference, and on a final aging result outcome.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Vietnamese, round 5: </b> it is about time to stop drinking these but I might make it through one more round after this one, the one I regret for going too far. </p><p>This is quite pleasant. It's interesting how dryness and aged flavor input really stand out immediately, in the first flash of impression, and then richness and other complexity enters in a fraction of a second after, with sweet and light flavors showing through seconds in. Aftertaste expression really ramps up; maybe from a brewing intensity difference? </p><p>I wouldn't be surprised if this just keeps on transitioning, if it's different again in 2 or 3 more rounds. We're now into range where that's not necessarily from the cake material taking time to get wet. Variations in the material may be expressing themselves across different times more; it's not completely uniform. That can lead to a tea version not integrating well, or it can provide a unique and interesting balance, and make for an interesting transition cycle. Here it works well, I think. I think it's just a complex and intense tea version too, that the quality is good.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Thai:</b> this seems a bit more uniform, as if it's transitioning from the tea itself offering a different balance of experience across rounds, not from varied material showing through more or less. Leaf color isn't completely uniform in this either though, so that's just a guess. Balance and integration of flavors works better in this than in early rounds too. An early dry edge (not nearly as dry as the other) also faded to change to a complex structure in this. </p><p>That cedar wood tone seems to be slowly transitioning towards more of a dried fruit range. A brighter component of that leans a little towards citrus, in this case dried orange peel, where the other might have included a hint of fresh orange, or maybe even lemon. That might work as an example of why this tea would be much better in 6 to 8 more years, or maybe even 10, so that more of that transition could occur. Intensity is moderate now but it's not fading, although both of these may go through a quieter phase before an aspect / character type transition is more complete. Probably they seem less intense than 3 or 4 years ago now due to a similar effect, being in between two places.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhtMw5S5WU4CWsMgfbAwJrdUnEIdP41pdF4FfT0_vfP0QvdXCmhliBf0887wGOJ6H8S2MLxhjKbifQktkYOCV9_u1cfLXyywEh7Om_2TFLz03PFLUlgo93u-zFnuQDVL7fUzbLr1bK4MfD_hsEzW28B-YYZMdUvh8DdxZL5lzzi7bexSURDBae6DGbfNXMq/s1476/VS%20and%20WT%20leaves%20(5).jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="845" data-original-width="1476" height="366" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhtMw5S5WU4CWsMgfbAwJrdUnEIdP41pdF4FfT0_vfP0QvdXCmhliBf0887wGOJ6H8S2MLxhjKbifQktkYOCV9_u1cfLXyywEh7Om_2TFLz03PFLUlgo93u-zFnuQDVL7fUzbLr1bK4MfD_hsEzW28B-YYZMdUvh8DdxZL5lzzi7bexSURDBae6DGbfNXMq/w640-h366/VS%20and%20WT%20leaves%20(5).jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>color is way different, with the Viet Sun version (left) more broken</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><b>Vietnamese, #6: </b> it's interesting how this is one year older but also much darker in leaf appearance, in spite of being stored pressed (hard pressed, even, but this sample is from near the center, the "beeng-hole" part, so maybe the rest wasn't). It's not so different that the last description no longer works, not transitioning so much. It really hangs together well; a nice light citrus aspect balances the rest well. Sweetness is ok, not something I've been saying much about, but these aren't very sweet compared to easier to drink younger sheng versions. It's sweet enough to balance positively. </p><p>Feel and aftertaste structure are more pleasant in this than the other; maybe it's slightly better for those extra dimensions adding more to it. There's a richness to the flavor set that works well too. I really expected this to be different, to not hold up to 7 years of aging transition this well, to fade more. It could be subtle as a 15 year old version but it won't be mostly faded, and it's definitely not in that range where sheng seems to just be oxidizing instead of fermentation transitioning. I just tried a tea like that within the last couple of days, maybe of comparable age. It wasn't so unpleasant but at least to me that type range and experience form seems quite inferior.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Thai:</b> this isn't really fading but the transition might not be further improvement at this stage; that might have leveled off. The character is pleasant but it gives up a good bit in terms of integration, balance, richness, and aftertaste intensity to the other version. I really expected the exact opposite; this Thai version is not bad, it's holding up and transitioning fairly well. It would be easy to miss that distinction when trying these teas a week or two apart; it would be easy for a preconception or varied judgment to enter in, a mood change or difference from how I'm feeling on any given day. Trying them side by side it's right there to experience; you can't miss it.</p><p>It might sound like I'm concluding something that I don't intend, that I'm saying that the Vietnamese tea is much better, and it has a lot more aging potential than the Thai version. I don't know that. They're both in odd places in a transition cycle, half-way through, and they're similar enough in character that a main difference might be how they are shifting just now, not related to final potential. I would guess that this Vietnamese version might be better in another decade, as it seems more positive right now, but that guess could easily be wrong. Time will tell. </p><p>Both have pretty good character now, and seem to exhibit decent potential. It's quite possible that the Thai version is a little more muted related to being one year behind, and storage conditions difference could've changed a lot, not necessarily in a way I could identify, but at a guess this Thai version is more like 3 years behind in aging related to storage conditions difference. </p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>Interesting! Both are pleasant, both seem to show good aging potential. I don't own any more of the Vietnamese version and very little of the Thai is left, so maybe I'll never know.</p><p>One important generality to emerge is that I keep expressing how a range of styles of South East Asian teas seem to have a character best enjoyed young, within 3 or 4 years, or maybe even new or rested for a year or two, and that doesn't cover everything produced. I suspect the other Wawee Tea version I bought this year may be similar, that it's going to be better in 15 years than it is just now. In a sense that's great; good aging potential makes for fantastic tea, later on. In a different sense it's a bit sad, because I loved the 2022 version rested only for a half a year to a year, and it was fantastic to drink at that stage.</p><p>It would be nice if I could specify what inputs and outputs led to that character difference, but all this isn't headed there. Varying initial oxidation during processing, differences in sha qing / kill-green step; who knows? That's part of what makes sheng pu'er experience so interesting (or "pu'er-style" teas), that the broad range of complexity variations don't necessarily end when you try the brewed teas, with aging shifting what you experience over time.</p><p>To me the Vietnamese version is better, as these stand now, and it's really down to a guess if the Thai version will be similar in character and as good in 2 or 3 more years when it catches up in terms of fermentation transition (catches up to the where the Vietnamese version is now; it will always be behind). </p><p>More input enters in related to how the later rounds went; the Vietnamese version stayed just as intense and transitioned positively over a number of additional rounds. It had a nice brandy-like quality, related to how those aspects came together. The Thai version stayed about the same. Based on this it sounds like the Vietnamese version was just better, and more suitable for aging, but again the Thai tea could be a but muted related to where it stands in the transition cycle. Only trying it in three more years would tell that story. I suspect it will be much improved, but maybe not quite as intense or complex, but that's just a guess.</p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-26326755989786524112023-12-08T23:09:00.000-08:002023-12-11T19:18:19.150-08:00Bangkok tea shops and cafes; online Thai tea options<p> </p><p>It's been awhile since I've written anything about this (<a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2017/07/tea-in-thailand-thai-tea-types-and.html">6 1/2 years</a>), and for whatever reasons discussing it has come up a half dozen times or so in the last month. Lots of people visit lately. Of course this list is centered on my own favorites, but I'll try to map out a range of other options.</p><p>Online options are included in the last section; people not able to shop locally in Bangkok might scan through the rest and focus more on that, or just skip ahead.</p><p>Edit: I've added Maps links to these, along with the Facebook or website references they first included, so it should be easy to find out more about these options or to physically finding them.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">My Favorites:</h3><p><br /></p><p><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/threeshelltea">Jip Eu</a></b> (<a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/YwAuAnVp61z6SHeu9">Maps link</a>): my favorite Chinatown shop, where the owners feel a bit like family. On the positive side they carry lots of teas, lots of types even, and most are sold at great value. On the negative side it's a hard place to shop, because there is no menu or listing of options, it's not easy to sort out what is in there, and quality and style varies a lot. Their storage ages sheng pu'er fast--it's Bangkok, so hot and humid--but teas pick up a little extra mustiness, which tends to fade over 3 to 6 months.</p><p>They would taste some teas with guests but not over and over, not whatever is in the store; they're not set up as a tourist outlet, selling more to locals who already know what they like. I never end up trying the same teas twice there. Their specialization is Wuyi Yancha, rock oolongs from Fujian, but they also have Tie Guan Yin (from China, from Anxi), an odd mix of sheng versions, some aged, Dan Cong, a random selection of black teas, and a little of this and that beyond those. There's not much Thai tea, but they would have some, maybe just no rolled oolong, the standard form, and no Thai sheng, what I like best.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiQni7Vsh8lgX8FG2HspUn8iCWySOrBsZFC1fzzNm9xs9rZxgAb8W4ck3kizSraJ_kr2yKgQ1aBmqfF50vQJitdfx_WF0HYBTgA6OJ2DURAx-CRvTY5PM9Oi4dbkXFPYgmHol6eBgSJONs6YRMkWwzDVwfnfErXOM0AkPhxG3_P5Inrj37q0Y_Wg9yVTmGK/s960/Jip%20Eu%20shop%20visit,%20Feb%202018.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="563" data-original-width="960" height="376" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiQni7Vsh8lgX8FG2HspUn8iCWySOrBsZFC1fzzNm9xs9rZxgAb8W4ck3kizSraJ_kr2yKgQ1aBmqfF50vQJitdfx_WF0HYBTgA6OJ2DURAx-CRvTY5PM9Oi4dbkXFPYgmHol6eBgSJONs6YRMkWwzDVwfnfErXOM0AkPhxG3_P5Inrj37q0Y_Wg9yVTmGK/w640-h376/Jip%20Eu%20shop%20visit,%20Feb%202018.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>I've met many kind people there; this is Sasha and Maddhurjya, and Kittichai on the right</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p>Some teas there are good value but of very moderate quality. A main offering is 50 to 100 baht boxes or paper wrapped squares of Chinese and Thai material blends ($2 to $3 per 70 to 100 grams; very inexpensive). Sometimes a Shui Xian version (rock oolong again) can be medium quality instead, in those blends, so it can happen that a $3 selection would be equivalent to $10 or $20 worth in a US shop. That's rare though; usually the quality is so-so for cheaper versions. </p><p>Good higher end Wuyi Yancha tends to sell for 1000 baht / $30 for 100 grams, which is still a good value for being a completely different type of tea. They don't carry a lot of sheng pu'er but some of the options they do have are good basics. I keep buying Xiaguan tuochas there, and a fully fermentation-transitioned Tulin tuo is nice for trying basic aged tea range.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/k.muikeetea" style="font-weight: bold;">K. Mui Kee Tea</a><b> (</b><a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/LYjbEYXGoqo1x4jB8">Maps link</a><b>):</b> probably not so different than Jip Eu, and just a block and a half away, another old Chinatown shop. I've visited a few times but keep going to Jip Eu instead. They sell different teas in dried tangerine peels (chen pi, the name of the peel sold alone, or sometimes used as a name for the stuffed dried peels). Those are most often shu pu'er, but can be other types. That might be good for novelty, for a gift for someone. Wuyi Yancha or Dan Cong might be ok there but you'd have to try it to check on quality and value to know.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj5WfnKZ_Xa34OsmZ6R5F4fhyphenhyphenhA-P2NBnCgx4PxCtldIQHHUc-iY-qX1NoJyJsQx_-otoHgXWAoP38D1M4QbcMcnsLw2MVmNaSTT-BEjJv5eOySGfJerBv69I9sFnDw7jne1Tso__UFQZajSBmhHYAGOl5JYQyjaFnW_MX-9C051JMJ1SPxzrNPDXrLv0_b/s640/IMG_20230630_132545.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="480" data-original-width="640" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj5WfnKZ_Xa34OsmZ6R5F4fhyphenhyphenhA-P2NBnCgx4PxCtldIQHHUc-iY-qX1NoJyJsQx_-otoHgXWAoP38D1M4QbcMcnsLw2MVmNaSTT-BEjJv5eOySGfJerBv69I9sFnDw7jne1Tso__UFQZajSBmhHYAGOl5JYQyjaFnW_MX-9C051JMJ1SPxzrNPDXrLv0_b/w640-h480/IMG_20230630_132545.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>that shop owner is so nice, and I don't even really know him</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/TeaSenXingFa" style="font-weight: bold;">Sen Xing Fa</a><b> (</b><a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/HtrF3NEdmZBTHPyh6">Maps link</a><b>; still on Chinatown shops):</b> a higher volume, more tourist oriented outlet, closer to the Yaowarat strip area, in a side street that sells a lot of street cafe food. Selection of Thai and Taiwanese medium quality rolled oolongs is good, but value is just normal for those, with many selling for $15 to 20 per 100 to 200 grams or so. Selection is broad but quality and value is all over the place; you need to try teas to see what's there. </p><p>Where Jip Eu will try some teas with you, but would draw the line at tasting a lot of versions, or opening some of any kind, you can sit and drink lots of tea with them here. You pay the price in value related to that though; some teas are good for the selling price, others not so much. They carry more new / young sheng and shu than the other places already mentioned, and sell more teaware. Per visiting with a new tea contact recently it's probably not the best place to be buying expensive clay pots, yixing and such. Moderate quality teacups and the like would be the same as buying them anywhere else, but it's rare to see as broad a range of options as they have anywhere else in Bangkok.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEglYxKuPPnA8pX9fva_DfchsCCpZqV1OmlGq1oJ2KjXwy1W3qKa3Urg48KljUItztGXv0d4yB0gUlmY0twnK8vuYa3iPmbWfcPB8uCbTfA9IkSNyZVxjtzMPFSFCkL62SvjsKPW2wxAhUVA9QjxKQt4ay2D2kM2nxYXs4NFv1ag9VRMZhje3NbZ9F7tLQfQ/s640/IMG_20220429_171516.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="480" data-original-width="640" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEglYxKuPPnA8pX9fva_DfchsCCpZqV1OmlGq1oJ2KjXwy1W3qKa3Urg48KljUItztGXv0d4yB0gUlmY0twnK8vuYa3iPmbWfcPB8uCbTfA9IkSNyZVxjtzMPFSFCkL62SvjsKPW2wxAhUVA9QjxKQt4ay2D2kM2nxYXs4NFv1ag9VRMZhje3NbZ9F7tLQfQ/w640-h480/IMG_20220429_171516.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>VIP guests and a main owner</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg7-atHGKufyMpW6SAhKUqhXsfY5m8uFE8PuN5Q8F4C8-_mu3akt6WasCyFXIiuWoQJBs1B3ocnrN5s7vq7gRrVl0vWYgg_OxMPvR2KrTMv4TYV_0OR3iRVnQewOEc5quuzudMHnZqWuUXNFax4P8ISMB-fndLac7Rn3h-V_7Ew-4r_20rm4-_MzQ-hN-Fm" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="1536" data-original-width="2048" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg7-atHGKufyMpW6SAhKUqhXsfY5m8uFE8PuN5Q8F4C8-_mu3akt6WasCyFXIiuWoQJBs1B3ocnrN5s7vq7gRrVl0vWYgg_OxMPvR2KrTMv4TYV_0OR3iRVnQewOEc5quuzudMHnZqWuUXNFax4P8ISMB-fndLac7Rn3h-V_7Ew-4r_20rm4-_MzQ-hN-Fm=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>they hosted a nice meetup this year. sheng cakes and teaware are on the other side of the shop</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><p></p><p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/Juzhentea" style="font-weight: bold;">Ju Jen</a><b> (</b><a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/8LjGpEYwEqBbwWcL8">Maps link</a><b>)</b> I've only been to this shop a few times but I'll include it in favorites since my experiences have always been so positive. It's way out there on Srinakarin road, out towards Bangna and the airport in the Paradise Park mall. They seem to have a lot of variety, and I'm not sure if there is a specialization. I bought some interesting mini cakes of pu'er last time I was there, 100 gram versions; that's a nice way to try something different, or it works for the gift theme. </p><p>I'm not sure how many local Thai tea options they carry, but I did just review a pretty good Oriental Beauty / Dong Fang Mei Ren version from there, so at least some. There seemed to be plenty of teaware around, but I have no idea where they stand on sorting versions or value for clay pots.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh1TnXr_wlqCJ-50tMJRIvby-L8oyvZ5eH-NHHVA4jlekbZtQjWHbq7_PrBkp1g_Zvy4QJ8oBPIx_S2yUyVQ8bwyKyEj43gHJS1ghISBG7AVsctIt_QMNCIEVw_sIkyYt5KWn4vM5ctpuKNi4z6_MaVdShwAoZ00TkzrEP_ru0YY06TvDqS6KFFYBoXb2n_/s1106/Ju%20Jen%20tea%20IMG_20231117_202821.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh1TnXr_wlqCJ-50tMJRIvby-L8oyvZ5eH-NHHVA4jlekbZtQjWHbq7_PrBkp1g_Zvy4QJ8oBPIx_S2yUyVQ8bwyKyEj43gHJS1ghISBG7AVsctIt_QMNCIEVw_sIkyYt5KWn4vM5ctpuKNi4z6_MaVdShwAoZ00TkzrEP_ru0YY06TvDqS6KFFYBoXb2n_/w640-h480/Ju%20Jen%20tea%20IMG_20231117_202821.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/Zhennan.th">Zhennan cafe</a></b> (<a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/Z6UrzNEFHYDcSWsYA">Maps link</a>): I've only visited here a couple of times, a cafe in Chinatown, but I suppose it fits here. Tea selection is limited, and nothing so novel and amazing, related to it being so small, but it has a nice feel, which to me is what cafe experience is all about. If the listed teas on a menu don't sound interesting they might carry others; it wouldn't hurt to ask. </p><p>There may be lots of similar options all around Bangkok; I hear of other places like this but typically don't visit them. To be honest I don't love spending any time in cafes; I'd rather buy loose tea and drink it at home. But visiting that Chinatown can be rough; lots of ground to cover. It's right beside a main alley market I'd highly recommend, which has a decent tea shop in it, and a few other places to buy very low grade tea and mass produced teaware. That may sound off-putting to most tea enthusiasts but it can be nice to have an extra glass teapot or a number of extra small cups for gatherings, if you don't already.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjV8x-t75aCSOnkpTuKFEAzN5AKknsDB-24ePiLftR7AenX_MASf9rgywjexuayjVNKWlNL-YnzR5AjYdYRxOXQP5AH11_EylLOn67mltJVFUbKw4xr5VaI76SSGvEah3U4kv9u1zVQ367WJaycDoI9hk7FHGykTkhhIsj89Tu-XevEil4o2-8EmdXQW8wW/s1774/John%20Lim.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1774" data-original-width="1774" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjV8x-t75aCSOnkpTuKFEAzN5AKknsDB-24ePiLftR7AenX_MASf9rgywjexuayjVNKWlNL-YnzR5AjYdYRxOXQP5AH11_EylLOn67mltJVFUbKw4xr5VaI76SSGvEah3U4kv9u1zVQ367WJaycDoI9hk7FHGykTkhhIsj89Tu-XevEil4o2-8EmdXQW8wW/w640-h640/John%20Lim.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>an international tea expert and friend visiting Zhennan (John Lim)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFSwMEYcbhbY0fy9SsVfbu3hKLloGZUE5H_pVlErBq0TPqiDswGcn6VxX7RU85j_6-PAyZtIgUuTy5h2JUGSsjgprdXYDFmtOiAK6E-_bmFhuQaZLrFv42qdgPJf_Ut-fOTWuGWSYak_xqVtq3iY0ZkLQmATObA9Kd3SEe7cuJt24zSYZWcD06tn_WLPEa/s1440/Zhennan%20owner.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1440" data-original-width="1440" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFSwMEYcbhbY0fy9SsVfbu3hKLloGZUE5H_pVlErBq0TPqiDswGcn6VxX7RU85j_6-PAyZtIgUuTy5h2JUGSsjgprdXYDFmtOiAK6E-_bmFhuQaZLrFv42qdgPJf_Ut-fOTWuGWSYak_xqVtq3iY0ZkLQmATObA9Kd3SEe7cuJt24zSYZWcD06tn_WLPEa/w640-h640/Zhennan%20owner.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the Zhennan cafe owner, and more of the interior</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFlKvsXBeKjvVs10vktXV9xcV-JDA1Rbge_COa_Tlg98SL8d0ERvcFX5wABD5rmV-0nn6Bu_KfcsW97LB9h_mNH3vzDCfYYOT8CE53EqNwxaK4dyMslm9YBWbdc24sqNOCheAIYhyeIWlrTXVfoqBbzx3VQw2XZqkhdbgJdyI2uf16nHFwypwxBBrePtiz/s1106/IMG_20231125_164419.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhFlKvsXBeKjvVs10vktXV9xcV-JDA1Rbge_COa_Tlg98SL8d0ERvcFX5wABD5rmV-0nn6Bu_KfcsW97LB9h_mNH3vzDCfYYOT8CE53EqNwxaK4dyMslm9YBWbdc24sqNOCheAIYhyeIWlrTXVfoqBbzx3VQw2XZqkhdbgJdyI2uf16nHFwypwxBBrePtiz/w640-h480/IMG_20231125_164419.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4><a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/zuEBV5QQxUKxJuX6A">that Soi 6 market alley shop</a> (note the alley has a different name from the North side)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiJ89Txii90ouSfr9W2Fy63bpulA5UU4aManPDKH9oRTlPZ71bWqPQMTiVIXrHKrwMbCBrgrWi9qO8xGSNlXfUg-_oTAZtxzpRhk8fdiJRahouSljo8stzzUNMfH0S_T305q8ZcHr11EG580lgqgrQVkF8_mO4EO1H88tKvm5GOVseoQHCZvC3QLUYQxomd/s1106/IMG_20231125_155343.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiJ89Txii90ouSfr9W2Fy63bpulA5UU4aManPDKH9oRTlPZ71bWqPQMTiVIXrHKrwMbCBrgrWi9qO8xGSNlXfUg-_oTAZtxzpRhk8fdiJRahouSljo8stzzUNMfH0S_T305q8ZcHr11EG580lgqgrQVkF8_mO4EO1H88tKvm5GOVseoQHCZvC3QLUYQxomd/w640-h480/IMG_20231125_155343.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>what that market alley looks like</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Classics:</h3><p><br /></p><p><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063721686153">Tea Dee</a></b> (<a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/dRPhmSXYTCQNAZBo6">Maps link</a>): way out beside the Ju Jen shop in the Thanya Park mall there is a store that has long been a favorite among locals, which specializes in in-house sheng pu'er versions, and probably carries some factory versions too. I've not been there in forever, since they moved from another nearby mall space, but given how they are viewed by others it seems to represent a standard option. I've never been into the $1 / gram standard gushu sheng range, since that's not within my budget, but this might be the best place to buy that kind of thing in Bangkok.</p><p>This raises the question of how many other mall shops like here and Ju Jen are out there. Very few others, I think. There are tea shops, or booths selling limited range, but nothing I know of that specialty tea enthusiasts would seek out. There had been a main one in the Paragon Mall, with a reputation for selling decent tea on the expensive side, but that's gone, and there's only a second branch somewhere else, as far as I know. Royal Project shops exemplify what other mall-shop exceptions are like.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Royal Project stores</b> (<a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/JdmvmKj5r5cctQfJ6">Maps link</a> of one example): some of the oolong from Royal Project stores isn't bad; that's what introduced me to loose tea a dozen or more years ago here. They're around, in malls and such, or there is one at the airport (Suvarnibhumi). </p><p>For tea enthusiasts into above average quality Taiwanese rolled oolongs the quality probably just isn't good enough, but for buying some inexpensive gifts for people not yet into tea back home this may be perfect, or people would see "daily drinker" range in different ways. They might carry an extra black or green tea but quality is kind of so-so, so sticking to the oolongs might be better. Value is good for them, quality in relation to cost. Tea selection is quite limited but dried fruit and whatever else is sold in those shops might be of interest. Some sell boxes of plain tisanes presented as tea bag versions, which I buy once in awhile.</p><p><br /></p><p><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/DoubleDogsTeaRoom">Double Dogs</a></b> (<a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/2sx8Myfyez2CLFtP9">Maps link</a>): the main Chinatown (Yaowarat road) traditional Chinese cafe, also selling some cakes and loose teas. It's really small; you might go in expecting that it may or may not work out for seating availability, or call ahead to reserve a space if it means a lot to you and you are on a tight schedule (which is no way to experience a Chinatown, but it can come up). That Soi 7 market alley is right beside Double Dogs, and a wholesale area selling all sorts of random goods is all located on the South side of Yaowarat near here. The main evening street food vending options are in the same area, as a few herb shops are, which is a good place to stock up on an extra kilogram of chrysanthemum, if one is into that.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjNE_8232CE-IqkWivQl7nMnEyWh0R2tBRouqZ7PHmg5D1KmNgfXn5qQswaV58kV2sWcjF6YHY30MhxE0ltUQkZRJPaHjCCLdtYBBDlR-n4pfiwhyphenhyphenmQ8kPjqXfvyDzDeRqJpy70frE6Z6fCsdQ7jgCc-hQuuH-iSerY4tIRJUOQ5BU-hmbnu0PolIUWw8Dt/s960/Double%20Dogs.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="720" data-original-width="960" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjNE_8232CE-IqkWivQl7nMnEyWh0R2tBRouqZ7PHmg5D1KmNgfXn5qQswaV58kV2sWcjF6YHY30MhxE0ltUQkZRJPaHjCCLdtYBBDlR-n4pfiwhyphenhyphenmQ8kPjqXfvyDzDeRqJpy70frE6Z6fCsdQ7jgCc-hQuuH-iSerY4tIRJUOQ5BU-hmbnu0PolIUWw8Dt/w640-h480/Double%20Dogs.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>this is actually half the cafe (<a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=522954184858558&set=br.Abo5aaOuDkzjTxl7vpqxTFKbNOMpyyzSNR23b8cuZqVDxwBuBW7Cjj_3CqbuRdV1D200bbpcDO1xqpxBdHhNWcuCLdv1npzelu2nshELNlhuruelQ-cVCUhJQla8fwsRawRkOJNuX0AGoi1reMxQVPTK">credit a FB page photo</a>)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><p><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/monsoonteacompany">Monsoon</a></b> (<a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/ykraqYPXLLxKphkR6">Asok branch Maps link</a>): local branches of a vendor based out of Chiang Mai. Most of their selection is flavored teas, presented as wild-origin source material (which they are, but what that means probably isn't completely obvious). For people open to that range or curious about that theme it's definitely worth checking out. </p><p>There had been a small stall sort of outlet in one of the malls at Phrom Pong, I think in Em Quartier, but the main branch is at Asok, way back in the system of sois (side streets), behind the parts of that area that everyone knows about. That shop isn't right beside the red-light "Soi Cowboy" area, but not far (but it's safe anywhere in Bangkok, even after dark; no need to worry). They had sold kombucha at a small cafe type section; that might be nice. </p><p>If value is a main concern then Chinatown shops are a better option; teas are priced at above average market rates, for what they are. The teas are unique enough that there really is no market rate, so they wouldn't turn up in Chinatown, but you get the idea, you can find equivalent quality teas for less elsewhere, just not the same styles. There is less to sort out than at Chinatown too; even though the range is mostly flavored blends it's all consistent, where in Chinatown you really don't want to drink any of the below average quality versions, related to it being bad and potential risk of contaminants exposure.</p><p><br /></p><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhioCn9Ci2Llpnk7jWnIqa7Se-H65pWpFdcw8q4Ze5EEa94M4TqJNZ0OJw-ne8ZTvz-GuThDdBrJCd-PRkA2nV9Zw9hD4uD366frwdLrCHMz288i970NBnv8tqoaETeSYaOi4ZzoHAUylursUpIUUPdKeLPJfu7mN1r8Yw6-e7jQCJ0UntBQWRnNUqwRfFI" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="795" data-original-width="1060" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhioCn9Ci2Llpnk7jWnIqa7Se-H65pWpFdcw8q4Ze5EEa94M4TqJNZ0OJw-ne8ZTvz-GuThDdBrJCd-PRkA2nV9Zw9hD4uD366frwdLrCHMz288i970NBnv8tqoaETeSYaOi4ZzoHAUylursUpIUUPdKeLPJfu7mN1r8Yw6-e7jQCJ0UntBQWRnNUqwRfFI=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>Monsoon holds interesting informative events, like <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2020/10/biodiversity-research-and-wild-origin.html">this one on biodiversity research</a></h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><p></p><p><b>Dayi / Taetea shops: </b> the two I've visited in town both closed but there are at least a couple of others. Google search would let you know where; I don't know, and only mention them here for completeness. That's the name of one of the three main Chinese factory producers of sheng and shu pu'er, for people not already clear on that. I don't think seeking out these shops would make sense for buying oolong, black, or green teas, but I did buy two nice pressed white tea cakes in one, shou mei and gong mei.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Grocery stores:</b> of course this doesn't work, but there must be something to add about this. I bought a Dayi Jia Ji sheng pu'er tuocha in a specialty grocery store once; exceptions come up. Of course there are other places to buy those (Sen Xing Fa sells them, from the rest of this list, and Yunnan Sourcing or King Tea Mall are good sources online). The Thai oolongs grocery stores sell are typically not above average, and average quality range here isn't so great. </p><p>In China it is possible to buy so-so factory sheng pu'er in grocery stores; I just tried part of a cake that's running low I bought in Shenzhen on a visit back in 2019, which was decent--relatively speaking--in spite of selling for next to nothing, around $10 per cake. Here it's better to avoid all of it, and sheng wouldn't turn up anyway (that one time was the only time I've seen it, except for sheng pu'er tea bags, which I'm not going to dignify with discussion here). You might be curious about what an inexpensive box of loose Thai oolong might be like, Shui Xian made in more of a Wuyishan style, but it would almost always be pretty bad. It's better to buy such a thing at shops like Jip Eu or K. Mui Kee Tea.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><b>New options / different themes:</b></h3><p><br /></p><p><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/kototeaspace">Koto Tea Space</a> (</b><a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/wvWYNGvTpBLqJAMQ6">Maps link</a>): I've never been to this place, but a friend runs it, so it must be nice (and the local buzz is positive too). It's themed around Japanese tea experience, with emphasis on the aesthetic side, two parts of tea experience I generally try to avoid. A setting looking nice is fine, some wood paneling, plants, or a water feature, but once there is too much of an elaborate decoration theme or people are wearing robes I'm out.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgpiMxrfHk1xTAOOtX9imLiUfA_L-wsDTl6MCyg2sGyRjxP6IaKq94dwFpOI9FUPKOKYnCCzCaGbKhnxtuz8vX-H7BajMhDw_lyhwl-ZykI00MEUFUdHP8rvS1bJYWHhKvE4-sLbI_1WJ_L9ZLoRYvdaPX0FzMmhUie9p_M7RlCxzm6IdUEhsbukyFi4eo5/s1440/Koto%20Tea%20space.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1080" data-original-width="1440" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgpiMxrfHk1xTAOOtX9imLiUfA_L-wsDTl6MCyg2sGyRjxP6IaKq94dwFpOI9FUPKOKYnCCzCaGbKhnxtuz8vX-H7BajMhDw_lyhwl-ZykI00MEUFUdHP8rvS1bJYWHhKvE4-sLbI_1WJ_L9ZLoRYvdaPX0FzMmhUie9p_M7RlCxzm6IdUEhsbukyFi4eo5/w640-h480/Koto%20Tea%20space.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>visiting would be worth it to meet Pop, the owner (<a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=239533348322883&set=pb.100067845472957.-2207520000">photo credit their FB page</a>, from 2021)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/peace.t.house">Peace Oriental</a></b> (<a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/gD79cw1TTV7yZnPv5">Maps link to one branch</a>): I think an earlier attempt at making a theme like that at Koto Tea Space didn't work for Peace Oriental, and they're on to being more of a standard cafe now, selling blended flavored iced teas and such, as well as more traditional versions. It could still be interesting, if your path takes you near a branch. I might've only visited one branch of this chain one time; again I'm just not that into cafes. If you spend $10 on a decent pot of tea you might as well add 10 more and buy a decent tuocha's worth, or a passable 100 or 200 gram amount. </p><p>Everything I'm saying here is a biased and one-sided take, of course. I'm not into style as a main attraction in tea shops, and marketing spin pushing pricing for good basic version options to double what they sell for elsewhere. Some people value style, and a "curation" function can seem to add value, beyond simple tea quality in relation to price.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhO4Wot3WaTUDFg4GZ_-_VAEUfBZc_0Gc1VXBm0tLclu-rSKpPpflOk4i2w7d1MtvICKGT67dJ4LIteNh_zt2Ksz5mV5TUno3G0zbDplgGKIh3uJvDhpTrby6KlBkeiz19WaRH80Bx9y6CoW1D5go7wGyIaRnMQhNZGXmvxBV8budBD6HqyERkg5yzM2cLA/s996/PeaceSINDHORN-01(r)%20jpeg.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="711" data-original-width="996" height="456" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhO4Wot3WaTUDFg4GZ_-_VAEUfBZc_0Gc1VXBm0tLclu-rSKpPpflOk4i2w7d1MtvICKGT67dJ4LIteNh_zt2Ksz5mV5TUno3G0zbDplgGKIh3uJvDhpTrby6KlBkeiz19WaRH80Bx9y6CoW1D5go7wGyIaRnMQhNZGXmvxBV8budBD6HqyERkg5yzM2cLA/w640-h456/PeaceSINDHORN-01(r)%20jpeg.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>their older theme was all white space; on to an updated natural materials look</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgBje2U4FD2G0wdXHExfLbnoLnICMzkv041GupxL7Nw-x9zWOZhOTaTsNsLPaWfSlEsQoYge6EZ8A84ZRITsDmcmJiwFbTyZC4cjJQ857AdqtqdoX6Ciwq2Tp97mppr1I8c64W-rFDqPhfTMf6lxRZO7-glZgxLZ75nnoyp3w_KJ1Q77gDhFaScgA-JmgtT/s700/peace_oriental_teahouse_1.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="449" data-original-width="700" height="410" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgBje2U4FD2G0wdXHExfLbnoLnICMzkv041GupxL7Nw-x9zWOZhOTaTsNsLPaWfSlEsQoYge6EZ8A84ZRITsDmcmJiwFbTyZC4cjJQ857AdqtqdoX6Ciwq2Tp97mppr1I8c64W-rFDqPhfTMf6lxRZO7-glZgxLZ75nnoyp3w_KJ1Q77gDhFaScgA-JmgtT/w640-h410/peace_oriental_teahouse_1.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the outlet I visited, which may be closed now</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><b><a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/R1TsyLykJ4o8h41P8">Ong Yong Choon</a> (that is a Maps link) / other local shops:</b> there are countless places selling all sorts of variations of teas in Bangkok, hundreds if you count bubble tea and matcha outlets, or maybe even thousands. This place I've named is an old-style tea shop near Wat Pho (a main temple), or more specifically beside the flower market beside Wat Pho. </p><p>More conventional examples would be new forms of cafes, which keep opening and closing every year. I've heard of 3 or 4 new versions this year but I'm only mentioning places I've not been to here when it makes sense to, when I've heard enough about them to reliably pass on what they are probably like.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg47IuZ1GLtavYemvgycinEssIOee5ahO99508YE_xh4I-wU6KtVutes69e6CPwSDiDKAeBNn4P-1WoNtk3QFzo1-U0V6r1m6L_rJGZl5yNLa2XWg0Z4-jde920SIrN1I9T7oKd88npVDKA6E191_r3G8icdvc9Ap0Qy59jcs565FaLqaK4QHtHc48wb9ZR/s748/flower%20market%20tea%20shop.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="561" data-original-width="748" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg47IuZ1GLtavYemvgycinEssIOee5ahO99508YE_xh4I-wU6KtVutes69e6CPwSDiDKAeBNn4P-1WoNtk3QFzo1-U0V6r1m6L_rJGZl5yNLa2XWg0Z4-jde920SIrN1I9T7oKd88npVDKA6E191_r3G8icdvc9Ap0Qy59jcs565FaLqaK4QHtHc48wb9ZR/w640-h480/flower%20market%20tea%20shop.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>Ong Yong Choon, the owners (who are so nice, as I keep saying about everyone)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><b>Traditional shops / Cha Tra Meu: </b> I've still not mentioned anything about the orange flavored Thai tea, or the versions that look like teh tarik in Malaysia (pulled tea, with added reference to pouring it back and forth), often brewed in what looks like a small wind sock. Both are around, they're just different kinds of things than specialty loose tea. If you are in a really old-style restaurant or food court and see that old form of brewing you should try it out, but it's just inexpensive black tea with sweetened condensed milk.</p><p>The orange flavored version is something else. Ordinarily I don't like artificially flavored teas, and it definitely is that, but that is tasty. There's a shop selling it--Cha Tra Meu, the main one--in the building where I work, and I've never bought a take-out or loose tea version there. It's not taste preference that stops me from having it; I avoid eating processed sugar and artificially flavored foods. For exceptions I'll eat donuts and ice cream sometimes, but not drinks that are full of sugar. For people who are more open to that buying a tin of the flavored loose black tea might be good. Dairy Queen here did a Thai tea flavor promotion at one point and it's for best for my health that was temporary; it was too good.</p><p><br /></p><p>In talking to someone recently about why it seems like there are gaps in what is sold in shops here a few factors seem to combine. Tea awareness and demand is limited, and Chinatown shops already cover that for people who have been into tea for awhile. Online options increase, sales through Facebook pages, and large Thai tea interest groups / marketplaces are crowded with people selling lots of things (<a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/ThailandTeaMarket">this is only one example</a>). </p><p>Some of those group posts would just be reselling the best of what is sold by small producers through Facebook pages, teas you could buy directly for less, and a lot of the rest would be Taobao or Alibaba purchases, a lot of which wouldn't be good tea, or selling at a good value. Over time people would probably sort out which individuals are most reliable, and turn-over would weed out some of the least reliable options. There are limited Western-facing online sales options; let's consider those.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Online:</h3><p><br /></p><p>Unfortunately the best Thai sheng is only available online, as far as I know. I guess that's a good thing for people reading this who would never make it to Bangkok? Wawee Tea is a good starting point, a main traditional producer, and Ming Dee is perhaps the other main producer option. Those kinds of producers would have Facebook pages, or there are lots of online shops in the two main online sales platforms here, Shoppee and Lazada. I'll skip looking up links here; people can Google search or look up blog posts here that contain those names. </p><p>I didn't really intend for this section to mostly be about Thai sheng; it just worked out that way. At least some of these outlet sell teas way beyond that range, even though I'm discussing sheng most here, and not the oolongs or black teas as much. It's what I buy most of and drink myself.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://tea-side.com/"><b>Tea Side</b></a> is the main Western-facing website outlet. Value isn't great through them, with decent sheng selling for between 50 cents and $1 per gram, when you can find equivalent versions for far less if you put more effort into it. For people who don't see spending $100 to 200 as much expense for a tea order, and don't care what that works out to in relation to $ / gram, then they're a great option. </p><p>Their products are consistently good. Sheng options are fine, or black teas are good, Dian Hong style versions from Thailand. Aged tea options are also good, but that $200 won't go very far buying from that range. Their small-batch shu versions are good, and a gui fei bug-bitten rolled oolong was nice in the past.</p><p>Let's make that summary more specific related to buying a young version of Thai sheng; what if you wanted to buy a moderate cost, most recent Thai sheng version they sell, how would that go? There are two identically priced at the lowest cost, $70 for 200 gram cakes, both from 2018, <a href="https://tea-side.com/bitter-leaf-raw-pu-erh-tea/">this one a more bitter version</a>. It's not 50 cents a gram, but that is $130+ for a standard cake, nearly double in-house boutique style productions by other vendors, or 1 1/2 times the higher end of that range. At that pricing you have a lot of options. A 2021 version sells for $85 for 200 grams; close enough to that 50 cents a gram level. It's just not the kind of outlet option where you find this year's tea selling at all, never mind related to style and pricing variations.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://rishi-tea.com/"><b>Rishi</b></a>--the US wholesale vendor--sells cakes from different countries, including Thailand; that would be another decent option. There must be other Western vendors selling Thai sheng, I'm just not familiar with any. </p><p>Let's dig a little deeper; how good would quality and value be? <a href="https://rishi-tea.com/collections/puer-tea/products/doi-wawee-sheng-puer-spring-2022?variant=44376706121978">This is a 2022 Wawee origin sheng "pu'er" version</a>, selling for $45 for 200 grams. I've bought tea similar to this over the past two years, for slightly less, but $80-some for a standard cake amount is definitely still fair, depending on aspect range and quality. They carry some Laos teas too; for people who aren't concerned about the $80 or so per cake price range I expect those would be interesting in character, and safe bets for quality level.</p><p>I can't say that their teas are definitely as good as Tea Side's, because that's too much generalization, but it's my guess that it comes down to preference instead of quality, and some people might like them more. It can be natural to assume that pricing must correspond to quality level but varying outlets set pricing differently, and carry different options, and equating cost with probable quality level doesn't work.</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>Moychay Thai forest tea initiative</b>: I've written about trying a cake from Moychay's partnership operation in Thailand, with tea versions <a href="https://moychay.nl/collections/thai-tea">selling through their Netherlands outlet</a>. It's tempting to try to describe their teas in relation to what Rishi or Tea Side is likely selling, or Wawee Tea and Ming Dee versions, but it can introduce a lot of error to generalize across a lot of versions, when I've only tried one (or two?; maybe a loose version as well). The quality of what I tried was quite good, the material was obviously high in potential, and while the style wasn't a complete match for Yunnan versions I liked it.</p><p>That theme applies to a lot of South East Asian sheng I've tried; often it's not produced in exactly the same style as Yunnan versions, often varying in ways that I like just as much. Oxidation level can creep up a bit, maybe due to not rushing the processing steps to offset that, or maybe it's that hotter and more humid local conditions let the tea transition faster during the limited processing time. Or maybe heating step, the sha qing / kill-green / pan frying step, is slightly different. Teas can end up trading out some bitterness, astringency, and aging potential for extra sweetness, initial complex flavors, and approachability. For a version that you plan to drink within 2 to 3 years that can actually be positive; for long-term aging it's not favorable at all. </p><p>It's possible that Tea Side filters what they sell to match Yunnan styles better, so their higher pricing level could be justified, for some. Or maybe they just charge more; I'm not implying that aging potential / style issue maps out like that across most versions, related to Tea Side matching Yunnan style and Moychay being more like local Thai versions, although it matches my past experiences.</p><p>I re-tried a favorite Thai sheng from 2022 just this week--from a local source that's hard to access, not one described here--and it was much different and just as pleasant as last year, not seeming to show great potential for 15-20 year aging, but to me a fantastic tea for drinking right now. It was not just on par with but slightly better than what I've sampled from all of these other producers (per my preference; that's not intended as an objective judgment).</p><p>In terms of positive experience and quality that Moychay tea I tried was good; I think it would also hold its own in the now-standard $80 per standard size cake range, a pricing that's a bit high for me to buy or drink a lot of, even though it's quite standard. </p><p><a href="https://moychay.nl/collections/thai-tea/products/thailand-green-tea-cake-200g">This autumn version</a> from them sells for 13 Euro ($14--what's up with the exchange rate?), for a 200 gram cake, so that's still very favorable pricing. Autumn versions give up a little intensity and tend to cost less but that's still a great deal. They list that one as "green tea," which I think is a translation issue, but it really could be pressed green tea, even though that existing--a pressed cake of green tea--would be stranger than getting a translation wrong. </p><p><a href="https://moychay.nl/products/tea-forest-project-wild-assamica-sheng-puer-tea-batch-11-2022-limited-edition-357-g?pr_prod_strat=use_description&pr_rec_id=f701240b4&pr_rec_pid=7986389975285&pr_ref_pid=7986400231669&pr_seq=uniform">This other cake sold as sheng</a> is 239 Euros for a standard size cake (on towards $250). So it goes with buying pu'er; you can accept what someone says online as input but you never really know until you're tasting the tea, especially if the person offering input hasn't tried a specific version. Style variations throw off the "good / not good" objective judgments; my absolute favorite Thai sheng not all other pu'er drinkers would even like. </p><p><br /></p><p>To complicate things further you can try 2 or 3 versions from a producer and think that those must map to all that they sell, good or bad, but that can vary a lot too. Buying what they price the highest probably bumps the chances that you'll try their best versions, but even that might not be consistent. Demand for a type shifts pricing just as much as quality, and many vendors just apply a standard mark-up, so if they get a good or bad deal on material / products your cost can vary by that factor more than quality level. The smaller the vendor and less direct their source connection the more that applies, but in general pricing mark-up is a commercial function instead of relating to a quality judgement; it can vary a lot.</p><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><br />John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-49921231387942579932023-12-05T04:16:00.000-08:002023-12-05T04:16:27.726-08:00Comparing 2014 and 2017 Dayi 7542 versions<p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEivTj13ENh_SFD275nooKSh60Z8sMoMkXtxH65G38nGaNoVGFX-zFPrB6gjosLME1spzmjDWOZYXwV-Jkd-rHun-xszBudCNmDkWuFlFynA92q1-U_8MjrwF53bc7fRAwfIXrKs1zww2TAy5yuEEHSlyGOh7CQ6ii5F_c_rqk98zFCvwop5pg4uX6a4ZDVO/s1088/7542%20comparison%20IMG_20231205_115950.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="1088" height="490" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEivTj13ENh_SFD275nooKSh60Z8sMoMkXtxH65G38nGaNoVGFX-zFPrB6gjosLME1spzmjDWOZYXwV-Jkd-rHun-xszBudCNmDkWuFlFynA92q1-U_8MjrwF53bc7fRAwfIXrKs1zww2TAy5yuEEHSlyGOh7CQ6ii5F_c_rqk98zFCvwop5pg4uX6a4ZDVO/w640-h490/7542%20comparison%20IMG_20231205_115950.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>2017 version left, in all photos</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p>So many of these review posts start with considering why it makes sense to comparison taste teas together. A new tea friend bought me some of a 2017 7542 (Dayi / Tae Tea sheng pu'er) version when we met at a local Bangkok shop recently (at Sen Xing Fa), so I wanted to write up what it's like.</p><p>This also relates to considering what sheng versions are like at different stages of fermentation transition, of different character types and ages. It's nice checking in with a benchmark version from time to time to help place others. </p><p>7542 versions tend to really need about 20 years of aging to be ready to drink, or 25 to 30 years in drier and cooler storage conditions, so trying 6 and 9 year old versions is a little odd. It's still interesting see where they are in their transition, and comparing other less intense sheng versions with them at similar transition points can be interesting.</p><p>I already owned the rest of a cake of this 2014 version. I had drank more than really made sense earlier, going a little beyond checking on it every year or so. I'm not sure what that was about.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkmJaW21UQ7IBakwgvAOWofo5O8dBbysODJHKB3XIg7lY957Zuaf9hPPJS1VWbhomVKk9XbiD0Z-BaFE4qXOT3vTyLLBTwlfZr06LsBnN4sDHq58AlYNYVFSlbVKinWyUU2LqIgIReeaRGneRfAH-1UOh0NjXAzxdCxI1dVad2mPAXoBk67MClK_dlA0rk/s1110/7542%201%20IMG_20231205_120309.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="1110" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkmJaW21UQ7IBakwgvAOWofo5O8dBbysODJHKB3XIg7lY957Zuaf9hPPJS1VWbhomVKk9XbiD0Z-BaFE4qXOT3vTyLLBTwlfZr06LsBnN4sDHq58AlYNYVFSlbVKinWyUU2LqIgIReeaRGneRfAH-1UOh0NjXAzxdCxI1dVad2mPAXoBk67MClK_dlA0rk/w640-h480/7542%201%20IMG_20231205_120309.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><p><b>2017: </b> a little harsh, but surprisingly pleasant in comparison with what I expected. There's lots of bitterness, coupled with astringency structure, but plenty of warm tones for this being so young. Of course it's intense. Some pleasant saddle leather sort of earthier range is present, leaning towards typical Xiaguan range. I suppose that someone could interpret fruit or spice being present, since this is so complex, but earthiness stands out more, along with that astringency and structure. Mineral base is a part of all that too.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2014:</b> this is quite different, relatively speaking. It's still intense, with lots of complexity, and not in an entirely different character range, but a smooth and rich spice sort of tone really dominates, at least at this round. 9 years is a long time to transition where this tea has been, in Bangkok. In Kunming storage it would still exhibit a lot of freshness, but this has turned a corner for character form, more onto warmer tones. It still needs plenty more time to reach its optimum; this is still an in-transition early-form review, a check on transition progress. </p><p>That wood and spice tone is hard to describe. It's like cedar or redwood, but towards spice from that, with an odd changed character to it, as driftwood takes on. It's clean in effect; no mustiness. There is an earthy edge leaning a bit towards leather, or even mushroom, back to that Xiaguan reference, but I think this will clean up in the next couple of rounds, that it might just be an early round transition phase.</p><p>I often say that I don't really "get" cha qi, that I barely feel teas, beyond some caffeine input, but I'm feeling these already, on the first round. I tried to go lighter on amount but probably left off at 6 grams each instead of 8. I'm brewing these pretty fast (having used a rinse step, for once), but the infusion strength is still going to be high. Using 4 grams for each would've made more sense.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjM-tvmRildcqxX5ksALFGeHD9ulhmjCdnZRkwSYer8NAPCiVtlVIpek9hWSM-1RxNc_r4ejToAjLKkGxdj4G2FwXKa69qOGhfCd4b1DVnSuxxiyQKt2_jRgMXcS-isCkYowRa6OMdow89JMjGuu2BFF5GrLxuNd6ARZLqNR_CmR37SLtLCCiAdNkvQTL0b/s1110/7542%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="1110" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjM-tvmRildcqxX5ksALFGeHD9ulhmjCdnZRkwSYer8NAPCiVtlVIpek9hWSM-1RxNc_r4ejToAjLKkGxdj4G2FwXKa69qOGhfCd4b1DVnSuxxiyQKt2_jRgMXcS-isCkYowRa6OMdow89JMjGuu2BFF5GrLxuNd6ARZLqNR_CmR37SLtLCCiAdNkvQTL0b/w640-h480/7542%202.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>brewed fast, but you can still see the intensity</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><b>2017, 2: </b>this isn't bad, just as it is now. It has a green sort of edge to it, which not everyone could relate to, but I've kept re-trying decade old Xiaguan tuos to acclimate. A rich warm tone is pleasant, along the line of toffee. There's a challenging feel aspect, for sure, but there is more to appreciate beyond that. Complexity is good, and in just another half dozen years this may be relatively settled, years ahead of schedule. Not fully age-transitioned, of course, but just drinkable in a different sense. These really shouldn't be drank before 20 to 25 years old, to be more optimum.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2014: </b> a lot of the same applies to this, just related to it being a little further along. For anyone who hasn't been drinking sheng for a half dozen years this experience would be truly awful, but I'm kind of relating to it. I think the real story here will be how these mellow out around rounds 7 or 8, what that's like, but of course I can't drink 14 to 16 infusions of these at one time. And I'm probably not going to do a two-part review either, or discard this tea, or save it for later. It's all a bit of a shame. 10 cups of these teas is a ton of it but I might get that far, if I brew these light enough.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiboJaLjCs6N0P8fRhFqJUwJgOrCCZC8FMJ3nuVygc4x7uhegu75iZIbl4038meZCpSLr6g9uCC9EVIRvSIDu8d-4dSTx4tarw-a3wp_JtwwWa4EHdGSljvAu8E-9iAWZ5Xlu-LE6rE1geXH_5b2rLlGpBSvbgfUrvmdOByW2by8RxNcCo22hBvI7tI07c6/s1110/7542%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="1110" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiboJaLjCs6N0P8fRhFqJUwJgOrCCZC8FMJ3nuVygc4x7uhegu75iZIbl4038meZCpSLr6g9uCC9EVIRvSIDu8d-4dSTx4tarw-a3wp_JtwwWa4EHdGSljvAu8E-9iAWZ5Xlu-LE6rE1geXH_5b2rLlGpBSvbgfUrvmdOByW2by8RxNcCo22hBvI7tI07c6/w640-h480/7542%203.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>2017, 3: </b> There is so much going on but the intensity makes it hard to sort into parts. Something like leather stands out, then a green wood sort of flavor couples with the challenging intensity, while warm mineral couples with the deeper base, so strong it almost seems to include metal. Part of the rest is in a spice range, and there may be some dried fruit involved, towards Chinese date or goji berry. The feel isn't something people would keep coming back to, but it's not completely unpleasant. If it had a bit more dry edge it really wouldn't work, but as it is this is just basic astringency structure.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2014: </b> only part of that harsher feel is present in this; it softened a lot in the extra 3 years (not that these were identical to begin with; they may have only been quite similar). A lot more of the flavor falls into a spice tone range, across both a deeper, smoother root spice range and part like more aromatic incense spice. There's an odd medicinal quality to it, one that's hard to place. It seems like sweeter fruit tone is evolving, that it might come to include more of that, but it's secondary to the rest here. Where the other is like a dried Chinese date or goji berry this is starting towards dried tangerine peel. The earthiness seems to include some tobacco as well. </p><p>One more round should be enough. This is a story partly told but it's too much to experience a lot of these. I drank water in between rounds to moderate the experience a little but lunch and a break will help more.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2017, 4: </b>it's very gradually becoming more approachable. By round 7 or 8 this will be easier to appreciate. The balance works better; feel eases up, and intensity settles across a similar but different aspect range. Leather effect is more like baseball glove now, not as heavy and earthy as the horse saddle tone earlier.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2014: </b> that one spice note is interesting and pleasant. Feel is still a bit much, and intensity is higher than it's easy to appreciate. In just 3 or 4 years that balance may shift, but again this needs longer. The wood range tone is still too green, and it's not nearly as harsh as I expected but still kind of rough.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>Both teas were much better in a series of later rounds, at least 4 more, and both are still far from brewed out at the end of the day. I might've been able to describe another extra aspect or two for both but the main change was the green wood tone and astringency fading, while more positive warmer range emerged more later. That was plenty for notes anyway, and enough reference for mentally comparing this experience to other middle-aged sheng I run across.</p><p>Both were better than I expected, and more transitioned. I guess I had been drinking that 2014 version as even younger than 6 years old earlier, before I just sat it aside, even though trying it over and over when younger really made no sense. The main thing that stood out wasn't exactly a surprise, the intensity. </p><p>I hadn't expected the character to have changed that much over three years, but then maybe they didn't start out as relatively identical to begin with. I doubt that spice tone that really stands out now in the 2014 version was noticeable in that form even 2 or 3 years ago, so who knows, maybe the other will go through a similar flavor range phase in 3 more years.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-81225314553266651372023-12-05T03:43:00.000-08:002023-12-05T03:43:31.710-08:00Thai Oriental Beauty (Dong Fang Mei Ren)<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhYrHLrYjxWQEkJmHzu6LarXk7JmUB7ZpqH4sX4KbYm96AOBLysd4kKFOxYeGlZ5kovBPtMrlx6VZULek61Fkkpi3tIC__MEjgYFX2j3CMhD5ZoTRqGeDt4a2-EW6i1s9Uk_DSyVyOk9gnvgjFZ04cHgYhtMVBpuIc8q5SOzu7GiuxBIAHJxSJmVIhEMswE/s833/Thai%20OB.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="804" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhYrHLrYjxWQEkJmHzu6LarXk7JmUB7ZpqH4sX4KbYm96AOBLysd4kKFOxYeGlZ5kovBPtMrlx6VZULek61Fkkpi3tIC__MEjgYFX2j3CMhD5ZoTRqGeDt4a2-EW6i1s9Uk_DSyVyOk9gnvgjFZ04cHgYhtMVBpuIc8q5SOzu7GiuxBIAHJxSJmVIhEMswE/w618-h640/Thai%20OB.jpg" width="618" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>On a shop visit outing a few weeks back the shop owner, of <a href="https://www.facebook.com/Juzhentea">Ju Jen in Paradise Park</a> (in Bangkok), gave me a sample of a Thai version of Oriental Beauty / Dong Fang Mei Ren.</p><p>It's been awhile since I've drank anything related to this tea type. I've tried Thai versions before; in the notes I compare this version to those. It could be a later version from a main Thai producer, or something else. It was this shop outing:</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEil6fM4I0HDHl3K3Zme4k4phkpVYbQkz40CXiNtLbw3rREYzhqWGoVeq-LwIokxkhgDRu7Lyy-I2ZSZdbKfFxEOaTejAYY9EMT1AzzMWJHnSqgYP_knpOG8qhjQ8O9nwOgYERvd9ag9x58PhB-8X_yubC5LY1qKr6j_wvQHb4zTiSwug9gnvVUxarlBNlMA/s1106/Ju%20Jen%20tea%20IMG_20231117_202821.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEil6fM4I0HDHl3K3Zme4k4phkpVYbQkz40CXiNtLbw3rREYzhqWGoVeq-LwIokxkhgDRu7Lyy-I2ZSZdbKfFxEOaTejAYY9EMT1AzzMWJHnSqgYP_knpOG8qhjQ8O9nwOgYERvd9ag9x58PhB-8X_yubC5LY1qKr6j_wvQHb4zTiSwug9gnvVUxarlBNlMA/w640-h480/Ju%20Jen%20tea%20IMG_20231117_202821.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjNuEAQv-0kq2awHzm0CLjDC3Yxo2vrFY1bxvrc0lXonDd0qfjN21QkjDVJhSiM2gXTpHCN9uD_BKyPtRPDPhhyNNfI_3vt207FLfIP8HFuJ3F2jGbLRRHKV8u-8nBguaK6F5otINgQCrOE-YLWqVN54SLu6apXb81mx8LnaYByR0RXDrxnFWqtNPbrxCKQ/s833/OB%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="624" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjNuEAQv-0kq2awHzm0CLjDC3Yxo2vrFY1bxvrc0lXonDd0qfjN21QkjDVJhSiM2gXTpHCN9uD_BKyPtRPDPhhyNNfI_3vt207FLfIP8HFuJ3F2jGbLRRHKV8u-8nBguaK6F5otINgQCrOE-YLWqVN54SLu6apXb81mx8LnaYByR0RXDrxnFWqtNPbrxCKQ/w480-h640/OB%201.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><p><b>First infusion: </b> a little light yet, but this is really nice. The profile is just as it should be, including warm notes and cinnamon, and a fruit layer beyond that. I think it will work better unpacking that as a list next round once it opens up more. The feel is already rich and full, sweetness is great, and flavors are clean; this should be very well-balanced, intense, and refined. There is already a creaminess effect, and pleasant aftertaste, even brewed light.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhf11Rp3lRW8cv_1H0iTSiSO3ydAjqFkiCDf5xNKugTwYTZ8o8TZUtNbUDSxf79f6GlT_sECLtFJjNuPhNLE0-MK-pFuFy5YdT8voWDh15j2OZgRh6Zc2IFvl28UyfPaeLGuhekk1TftlsAK71cP5hUMckT5SyGD8NtpyXgH0wS1rXGmSexsWcQsmpprVd7/s833/OB%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="624" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhf11Rp3lRW8cv_1H0iTSiSO3ydAjqFkiCDf5xNKugTwYTZ8o8TZUtNbUDSxf79f6GlT_sECLtFJjNuPhNLE0-MK-pFuFy5YdT8voWDh15j2OZgRh6Zc2IFvl28UyfPaeLGuhekk1TftlsAK71cP5hUMckT5SyGD8NtpyXgH0wS1rXGmSexsWcQsmpprVd7/w480-h640/OB%202.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Second infusion: </b> I brewed this around 20 seconds to bump intensity and it definitely worked; it's much stronger. Some warm mineral base tone and astringency even picked up, of course mild in form. Cinnamon is really pronounced, one typical range for this category of tea. Fruit is still a bit dominated by that. It might include raisin, and a touch of citrus, along the line of dried orange or tangerine peel. Sweetness resembles honey, seemingly coupled with that warm and rich flavor.</p><p>This is pretty good. It has been quite awhile since I've tried any OB / DFMR versions but it had come up regularly in the past. A decent average or slightly above average quality version expresses pleasant flavors, good sweetness, complexity, and pleasant feel, without negative aspects, and this is at least that good. More refined versions can add even more intensity and complexity, more unusual flavor aspect range, or exceptional feel structure and aftertaste. Balancing warmer tones and lighter fruit can be quite pleasant, as this accomplishes. I'll try a slightly lighter brewed round and see how that changes effect.</p><p>It goes without saying that any brewing times are tied to proportion, that a much lower proportion 20 second infusion would be light, and with this maxed out a bit (maybe 7 grams in a 90 /100 ml gaiwan) 10 to 15 seconds is already quite a bit of infusion time. Plenty of people would brew 4 or 5 grams instead, and still stick to that 10 to 15 second infusion time, at least for early rounds.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiDcbjLxeLGJ_qhagQzDqMUdSi7A5nVBKb9kXjLYSxa5DYnfyOepi4zKZqLsb8wXbOo7ukj1ARkSvGUAB9VbnhINDolCDSoNnFuxHlYYsZTsgq720aoxMuB_69iN5jYfBG-QfyUrWhOZLpE6FbUj0c5K_pccgeZ-fXkQkT8Gml4fTaUi-snDh6l51JhPHQP/s833/OB%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="624" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiDcbjLxeLGJ_qhagQzDqMUdSi7A5nVBKb9kXjLYSxa5DYnfyOepi4zKZqLsb8wXbOo7ukj1ARkSvGUAB9VbnhINDolCDSoNnFuxHlYYsZTsgq720aoxMuB_69iN5jYfBG-QfyUrWhOZLpE6FbUj0c5K_pccgeZ-fXkQkT8Gml4fTaUi-snDh6l51JhPHQP/w480-h640/OB%203.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Third infusion: </b> this is even more pleasant brewed a little lighter; intensity comes across well, and brighter tones stand out more. It's still undergoing round to round transition, so that factored in as well. OB / DFMR doesn't tend to go through a cycle of changing a lot across rounds, but it can shift some.</p><p>That flavor list is what is showing through, cinnamon, honey, raisin, citrus, light warm mineral base, but that doesn't do justice to how pleasant or complex this tea is. Rich feel adds an extra dimension, and it carrying over to a decent range of aftertaste lengthens and deepens the experience. It's a much softer and more subtle experience than sheng pu'er blasting your palate, and carrying over to as strong an experience as tasting most teas, but it still conveys depth. A tisane or varied spice aspect or note adds a little extra complexity, bordering on warm wood tone, in a pleasant form that balances well.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Fourth infusion: </b> shifting just a little in the proportion between those inputs but not changing too much. The dried fruit tone shifts to become a little broader, and cinnamon fades just a little. This might be closer to dried persimmon than raisin at this point.</p><p>So how good is this? Hard to specify, especially for me not trying any of this tea type for years. I think it's above average, even for Taiwanese standards, but with sourcing and tea grades varying it's hard to place what that means. Quality and value end up being related to cost (and rarity, and whatever else), and I think this is not inexpensive tea, that it would probably push on past the 50 cents a gram level. A main Thai plantation had made versions of this, and I suppose this could be that, and if so it might not be that expensive if purchased directly, but this is a good bit better than what I've tried from them of this type before. Maybe they improved processing, or it was a particularly good year? Or else this is from a much smaller producer; that would make sense.</p><p>I might mention how this could be better; that could help place it. Feel and aftertaste are pleasant, and support the overall experience, but those could be dialed up quite a bit. Intensity and complexity is fine, but this could be more refined, with even more intense fruit flavors, and distinctive spice notes (although a solid dose of cinnamon is a great start). Citrus tone can give exceptional versions a little more pop than this has. All that is splitting hairs, in relation to this being a generally pleasant and novel experience. People get hooked on trying better and better versions though, and I think as more mainstream outlet products go this already is that, but there are more exceptional versions out there.</p><p>I didn't catch the backstory for this, or even a clear price, at least one that I remember. We met in the shop where the owner had given me this sample, Ju Jen, with a few other people, and most discussion was between two or three others, and in Thai. My Thai is ok for eavesdropping a bit, and basic conversation, but I also miss a lot.</p><p>Oxidation level is normal for this, up towards the edge of black tea range, or maybe even as oxidized as a light oxidation level black tea. That's normal, and the main thing is that it works, and it does.</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiYT_5QsHzA1obZ07uDzCyR0Ll3ziYu0FYZYw5RcPBG_RbQGusLzjgnfIHk9cOWB1nfNR_wvLZl9yhAQYe3Tvfr-0hPY-ryxsQB_kqTf73y6XjfX8To0lyUGL5ygxsD73QoNVU_s6nHdE-PvcYozwjtlORCdT6j9Zsj-GsizBulOuIGloW5A9Ioq7wLGa_Y/s833/OB%205.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="833" data-original-width="624" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiYT_5QsHzA1obZ07uDzCyR0Ll3ziYu0FYZYw5RcPBG_RbQGusLzjgnfIHk9cOWB1nfNR_wvLZl9yhAQYe3Tvfr-0hPY-ryxsQB_kqTf73y6XjfX8To0lyUGL5ygxsD73QoNVU_s6nHdE-PvcYozwjtlORCdT6j9Zsj-GsizBulOuIGloW5A9Ioq7wLGa_Y/w480-h640/OB%205.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Fifth infusion: </b> it's good but fading a bit; from here I'll need to push this a little harder to maintain the intensity. More oxidized or roasted teas often tend to express rich and novel flavors at the cost of not being as durable as "greener" versions. This will keep going, for a number of infusions, but it seems its basic story has already been told.</p><p>It did produce a couple of very nice rounds using longer infusion times. It's a good sign that flavor and character didn't seem off in any way, even for soaking it for awhile.</p><p>It seems like this has summarized and concluded enough already, so I'll skip adding an extra section here. It seems pretty good. Good is all relative, and there was that limited range for improvement, but this goes a bit beyond a basic decent version.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-89278287925987360422023-11-26T23:21:00.000-08:002023-11-26T23:21:17.712-08:002016 Kokang Myanmar sheng and 2011 Mingdee Thai sheng<p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhLdo6JPN-ixXZFttAsfvuYyAiD1jbnq1QB2kAH6_Hc3lcFxfAaDMlGtsgbPQ7lduAiUghHdYvBhGdaaVs-74kDKg1A-Tet3biTVgJrIur9HJKwHgrFKDFmkk4dg_yFKIhV3qxITPOEGV_nXZax2fWBMTQKUJPXm1zuWf7atXZmSLose-TlGCkvAgONIgAx/s1106/Kokang%20and%20Mingdee%20IMG_20231125_112009.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhLdo6JPN-ixXZFttAsfvuYyAiD1jbnq1QB2kAH6_Hc3lcFxfAaDMlGtsgbPQ7lduAiUghHdYvBhGdaaVs-74kDKg1A-Tet3biTVgJrIur9HJKwHgrFKDFmkk4dg_yFKIhV3qxITPOEGV_nXZax2fWBMTQKUJPXm1zuWf7atXZmSLose-TlGCkvAgONIgAx/w640-h480/Kokang%20and%20Mingdee%20IMG_20231125_112009.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the Kokang version left, Mingdee right (in all photos)</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p>In visiting a local tea shop a couple of weeks ago, Ju Jen in the Paradise Park mall, a tea contact I was there to meet shared a few teas with me, including these. One is a 2016 Kokang Myanmar sheng, and the other a 2011 Mingdee Thai sheng. I have two other versions of Kokang sheng around, part of one cake (<a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2019/07/kokang-2018-myanmar-sheng-meeting.html">2018, that was</a>) and two small older cakes (<a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2019/07/2006-kokang-myanmar-mei-hua-sheng-puer.html">I think from the same producer</a>). </p><p>Kokang is both an area in Myanmar and a producer name, if I've got that right. The category name of pu'er doesn't necessarily apply to these, being from Myanmar and Thailand, but they're the same type of tea, made from the same general type of plants, related Assamica versions. </p><p>Mingdee, the producer, rings a bell but I may have never tried any version from them. I think them and Wawee Tea might be the two main producers, but the subject of Thai sheng keeps such a low profile it's hard to be sure.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjRRz_6mjYOwmYLGujHvhb9Zl7GXTtZh6_tAKLx7g6YndKfI5yUeTBA70vGuNmmWaIJ5boVWm5zTd7AqEaTScDcGIKZVWzFQcErFDVVkh6SsFoWNt_OdkGST5Ur6Il7k08IbkQXlYsSO4rmJKq8a4IDy23bKoLa8uH1V1dASstUkFkp6_uVXD3X5fVXdOKg/s1106/Ju%20Jen%20tea%20IMG_20231117_202821.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjRRz_6mjYOwmYLGujHvhb9Zl7GXTtZh6_tAKLx7g6YndKfI5yUeTBA70vGuNmmWaIJ5boVWm5zTd7AqEaTScDcGIKZVWzFQcErFDVVkh6SsFoWNt_OdkGST5Ur6Il7k08IbkQXlYsSO4rmJKq8a4IDy23bKoLa8uH1V1dASstUkFkp6_uVXD3X5fVXdOKg/w640-h480/Ju%20Jen%20tea%20IMG_20231117_202821.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>that shop visit</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimXslrGy4JSHhV-aXfMF3qwOlw1tk2r0K4MI3QlCa505WIevqDzyh5cXn2kZtY73ieg33_ekyftY0T8JFioUfXrEZcHfD0FwtUYWuS_BJENU7utTaDGJyEUTOzgvEVWJNbCFFiMuA-ibtoP2Wd1__OeFih9Fa3IM3GvHYeO_oF6HMtStvnYle5-AiMvO81/s1106/K%20and%20M%201%20IMG_20231125_112301.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimXslrGy4JSHhV-aXfMF3qwOlw1tk2r0K4MI3QlCa505WIevqDzyh5cXn2kZtY73ieg33_ekyftY0T8JFioUfXrEZcHfD0FwtUYWuS_BJENU7utTaDGJyEUTOzgvEVWJNbCFFiMuA-ibtoP2Wd1__OeFih9Fa3IM3GvHYeO_oF6HMtStvnYle5-AiMvO81/w640-h480/K%20and%20M%201%20IMG_20231125_112301.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>2016 Kokang Myanmar sheng: </b> it's pleasant. It has picked up good warmth and depth in the last 7 years, for sure. The brighter floral notes are transitioned away but there is plenty to appreciate; complexity and balance are good. It seems as well to turn that into more of a list on the second round. Bitterness is non-existent but it will probably kick in more next round.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2011 Thai (Chiang Rai / Wawee) Mingdee: </b> generally pleasant but this may be right in the in-between age transition place where teas tend to go a bit quiet. Pushing it later may help a little, but if it's at a point where former compound profile is half transitioned to different forms that may only go so far. Again checking on a list of aspect will probably go better next round.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhv9Un83kFpqdvrM05lnifapHySW5cWYKd44qfRZBVd5k7d-xQBnoC5r48mJEU3RnvPUscYf3ct7lASNbpwVQSmh_ElQQw8R_JvGdtXLccsnRICmGDTlFF3n1I6CdygK6mt8LoAYwjV5kJIA0mJ8JjIh6Ks_71V1rNBKZrp09n5CkEWai0m_vkCUh7a_gmU/s1106/K%20and%20M%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhv9Un83kFpqdvrM05lnifapHySW5cWYKd44qfRZBVd5k7d-xQBnoC5r48mJEU3RnvPUscYf3ct7lASNbpwVQSmh_ElQQw8R_JvGdtXLccsnRICmGDTlFF3n1I6CdygK6mt8LoAYwjV5kJIA0mJ8JjIh6Ks_71V1rNBKZrp09n5CkEWai0m_vkCUh7a_gmU/w640-h480/K%20and%20M%202.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Kokang, #2: </b> nice! This range is familiar. Sweetness is good, and mineral base (in between light and warm, or maybe spanning both), with an earlier floral range (likely prominent earlier) now shifted to warmer tones, cedar wood, spice range, maybe a touch of warm dried fruit. Whether or not this is a relatively optimum aging level for drinking this could vary by preference. </p><p>The vendor sales page for the other Myanmar sheng I own (one of 3 versions) described it indirectly as good but not great, along the lines of typical for tea material like this. That was from Chawang Shop. Maybe this had slightly more complexity, intensity, and aging potential, so the other could be a little more faded at this point. It would've made more sense to compare this tea with that but I really wanted to try both of these, and I have a few other teas around to get to.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Mingdee: </b> it's not bitterness that's ramping up but depth and mineral base really is. This is clean and complex, just not overly intense. I think it has great potential to age into a more subtle aged range, not the kind of tea that's still undrinkable after 12 years, but one that can finish transitioning in a few more, picking up more complexity in a different range. </p><p>Mineral depth is unusual in this, for being so heavy and warm in tone, and for dominating the rest of the flavor profile. I think that's partly an effect from the other flavors still shifting from younger to older form, so it seems quiet, because there is a broad range there, but all at a subtle level. As younger and brighter tones finish dropping out the deeper and warmer ones will be more evident. It might turn out like aged Yiwu sometimes does though, on the subtle side. Those can go further into flavorless, if not well-suited for aging, but some might just be subtle, or I suppose others yet more intense as aged sheng than I've experienced. I might have only ever tried a half dozen relatively fully aged Yiwu versions, so that sampling is too limited for broad generalizations.</p><p>Given that I'm reviewing 7 and 12 year old sheng versions the timing for this evaluation is a little off optimum; these would tell a more complete story in 5 more years. Those small 2006 Kokang mini cakes, are surely not ready even for being 17 years old, so I've not been re-trying them yet. That style seemed suitable for 25 years of aging, given how the hard pressed form will slow transition pace. I'll still try one over the next few years but it won't be ready yet.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjDORwS9ark-DXtcTG9KfTU8rR7tT5tlrRqmTCU5u1H9xkrFSdMaAiQyW634Y0vt4INe6MQ1hg23WZAwqLgk234TrnXPc4CEVct3ItWTMYMAoNzqsQ3zOWlKBA_QJqK0n5r6QW9UeDUTv1oqBsrgrYFfP8cBMUfHuh6qLWIU39ES9o3pJTjOA6-zehYHa2T/s764/Kokang%202006%20sheng.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="764" data-original-width="760" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjDORwS9ark-DXtcTG9KfTU8rR7tT5tlrRqmTCU5u1H9xkrFSdMaAiQyW634Y0vt4INe6MQ1hg23WZAwqLgk234TrnXPc4CEVct3ItWTMYMAoNzqsQ3zOWlKBA_QJqK0n5r6QW9UeDUTv1oqBsrgrYFfP8cBMUfHuh6qLWIU39ES9o3pJTjOA6-zehYHa2T/w636-h640/Kokang%202006%20sheng.jpg" width="636" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkhL6x4Lw9ieElOrgdABoCRz7TCMwi1XIhhCf3LDJfJi_fcBA2jDim7xsOJW5DkjtN0eTxr2MYLiHWlFGPsXsiX4D7ftReVRzg-saNF0nu1aTvfOhmR0dm9nCbRz2g5EZm7qPlqcgO1mxu7kqp_qWD-a-FgagwIWCZMArKz72Igtq9RlYL9pXuDoWunFJb/s1106/K%20and%20M%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkhL6x4Lw9ieElOrgdABoCRz7TCMwi1XIhhCf3LDJfJi_fcBA2jDim7xsOJW5DkjtN0eTxr2MYLiHWlFGPsXsiX4D7ftReVRzg-saNF0nu1aTvfOhmR0dm9nCbRz2g5EZm7qPlqcgO1mxu7kqp_qWD-a-FgagwIWCZMArKz72Igtq9RlYL9pXuDoWunFJb/w640-h480/K%20and%20M%203.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Kokang, #3: </b> there is definitely a very catchy flavor aspect that's common in Myanmar sheng, that I've not described here yet, and probably not done justice to pinning down elsewhere either. In a younger version one would naturally see it as floral + light mineral, but there's a little more to it. It might be a spice range sort of flavor, along the line of bay leaf. I've used bay leaves in cooking but not very often, so that's partly a guess, which conveys some general range.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Mingdee: </b> this is still quite subtle but it's evolving in a positive way. Heavy mineral is still present but other range is balancing with that more now. It's more in an aged furniture range, a mix of aromatic wood tones and non-distinct aromatic oils. A bit of cedar wood dryness and edge joins that, but it's not dry in feel, it just has a dry component. Texture / feel will keep shifting over the next half-dozen years too.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh520NGs5sJs0zk6KOVRoe4Q6GeFMZe9ED9Q0r8lPQ03qUagfCCEQSEh6yt_-iRGi15hLoyRN_1wB0Q3ogIVDRwwEJmlJhp-3Q22XVMPRDfmSL74HrZINRFS5d_DXXkgMRYg5_AOUayVyrfxaCtSKPQh6PuIzcYVrWFMLZCuPMHdjT3nZoNEw_wepAJ_d-M/s1106/K%20and%20M%204%20IMG_20231125_122017.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh520NGs5sJs0zk6KOVRoe4Q6GeFMZe9ED9Q0r8lPQ03qUagfCCEQSEh6yt_-iRGi15hLoyRN_1wB0Q3ogIVDRwwEJmlJhp-3Q22XVMPRDfmSL74HrZINRFS5d_DXXkgMRYg5_AOUayVyrfxaCtSKPQh6PuIzcYVrWFMLZCuPMHdjT3nZoNEw_wepAJ_d-M/w640-h480/K%20and%20M%204%20IMG_20231125_122017.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Kokang #4: </b> this keeps improving; that's always nice. Depth and the way it integrates gets better and better. That one hint of harder to define aspect seems to have a shifted to include a touch of lemon; it balances well with the rest. It doesn't have the richest feel, or much aftertaste at all, but the feel it does express is positive. There are no flaws, and the balance works; it's hard to place how those enter in as positive inputs.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Mingdee: </b> maybe fading just a little, although that probably relates to variations in infusion time, which I don't track closely. There is nothing new to add. I have a couple of things to do so I'll try one more infusion and quit the notes, even though these aren't quite halfway finished yet. I'll steep a little longer so I'm not commenting that this is hard to place, which will probably shift results a little again.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Kokang #5: </b> this is quite pleasant. That touch of citrus (lemon), light spice background, nice mineral base, mix of warmer and lighter tones all integrates really well. It could easily seem disjointed or at an awkward phase instead; maybe in another 2 or 3 years it will be like that. I'm not sure this has great aging potential, to be honest. Intensity is fine at this stage but as it swaps lighter for heavier range that may fade, and it's not that intense now, for a 7 year old sheng. </p><p>I might prefer to drink this particular tea aged 3 or 4 years, back when it hit a little harder, and retained more younger notes, but had lost a lot of it's more youthful challenging rough edges. It's good now though, I just don't know if it would be better or worse in 7 more years. There's a good chance it will fade (just a guess, of course).</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Mingdee:</b> more or less the same as it had been, mixing the same aspects described in earlier rounds, with proportion and overall effect not changing too much. At least this is really clean in effect; there are no flaws from storage inputs or original negative character. Limitations only seem to relate to what wasn't present initially, to the potential it had for aging. </p><p>I think this would be quite good in 5 or 6 more years, but that's only if someone likes subtle aged sheng, versions where intensity is quite low, and rich feel carries the weight of a lot of what you experience. The warm flavor tones and mineral base won't completely drop out but with this being limited in intensity as a 12 year old tea I'd expect it to be on the subtle side as an 18 year old version. Which is ok, if someone is really on that page. </p><p>It's more natural for me to prefer versions with lots more intensity that need a little more time to complete transition. Those sorts of "challenging when young" versions, that aren't quite there at 18 years old, develop great depth, good balance, complexity, and really interesting flavors, but only at closer to 25 years old.</p><p>For drinking at this stage it's still pleasant. That touch of dryness doesn't come across as overly negative, and the flavor balance isn't bad. It not being optimum relates to an imagined potential, not a real experiential gap, beyond what isn't in the cup right now.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiMdHKKFMpcrySfp97rjg8-iYWTsz4gdZx5nS0e8lMLCrOcE8UPyhPbhXChFoncHYTgImfNkYTYylkNz1XqSAR6pRTrc3mFOo43Xv77_rlsosZM58IgjB21PKwPo2uEUaTAsFtdaUqsodlaYc7Fe-PCQeF_MeNLuhFA2rJAUfELz1XEBgeSXnUayaKKParN/s1106/IMG_20231125_112023.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiMdHKKFMpcrySfp97rjg8-iYWTsz4gdZx5nS0e8lMLCrOcE8UPyhPbhXChFoncHYTgImfNkYTYylkNz1XqSAR6pRTrc3mFOo43Xv77_rlsosZM58IgjB21PKwPo2uEUaTAsFtdaUqsodlaYc7Fe-PCQeF_MeNLuhFA2rJAUfELz1XEBgeSXnUayaKKParN/w640-h480/IMG_20231125_112023.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>Myra visits while I do the tasting</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3d1DDk1Z6EpZ7mWGSjOOlwfrygZZZncMGxRU0PZOqtFUkSQ-E9-bO8ftvl3Wn_R2-6qAxirWyUjcBOQgPpQ0CZQpHQx6Do7a6Fq73IMiwe1qn21VSy8gELwf29itoBlOajvZkPnX8pgdn72KvJ3698mJi0Hg6lmfxZ7nWMTnBkAErt9lF-W5_T_zGhyM8/s1106/IMG_20231125_120920.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3d1DDk1Z6EpZ7mWGSjOOlwfrygZZZncMGxRU0PZOqtFUkSQ-E9-bO8ftvl3Wn_R2-6qAxirWyUjcBOQgPpQ0CZQpHQx6Do7a6Fq73IMiwe1qn21VSy8gELwf29itoBlOajvZkPnX8pgdn72KvJ3698mJi0Hg6lmfxZ7nWMTnBkAErt9lF-W5_T_zGhyM8/w640-h480/IMG_20231125_120920.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>It was interesting trying two very different tea versions, again. It's interesting how the much younger one worked better in the current aspects balance than the older version, per my preference. There is a common perception related to sheng pu'er that older is better. To me every version has an optimum transition level, but that can only be defined in relation to someone's individual preference. </p><p>For focusing mainly on aspects and only doing tangents on aging potential and likely earlier changes it seems like I've not fully addressed how much I like these. This style of Myanmar tea, and the distinctive aspects that seem tied to there, I really do like. Familiarity alone might make it more pleasant, and it fits in with what I've been drinking most and liking more recently. I drank half a small cake of that one related Myanmar tea about a year ago, a tea I took to Honolulu to drink regularly there. It's not tied back to the same producer, but very similar in character. <br /></p><p>The other might seem somewhat related to all the Thai sheng I've been drinking, but the style was probably different to start, and I'm not regularly drinking any from a 12 year old age range. To me this probably isn't a completely ideal tea for long term aging, but then it probably wasn't in a very approachable when young style either, more in the middle. That doesn't make it bad, but it loses a little. </p><p>It may be at its best aged in the 16 to 18 year range, or at least relatively already peaked then, perhaps better yet at 25 to 30 years old, but also not so different. If this had spent more time in Bangkok it might be more fermented (transitioned) now, but to be clear I don't know where it stayed. It doesn't seem like it started as a very challenging version, so maybe not completely unlike the ones I drink now, or it would still have more for rough edges, beyond a bit of extra dryness. The North is still tropical but not as consistently hot and humid as here; not even close.</p><p>Both were pleasant and interesting to try. Both are much appreciated; it's nice having a local friend who shares teas like these.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh_YSBksg_UE80b2qlMiqot4OwYwNdFt2jFOUgde2wys5GXVU0IlHcbtlwDpEn6yfsv6psPlnCcSRP9XIpyuhZmNq6mMUlSpHLcByYzPdxp17CiMHyrzzob-kYelGYG_Em4BgKZnVlAIy45JL01YdvXGg0nCooa38L2YsOmc_Pt3C88zbZQYOamdOCuUWqV/s1106/IMG_20231125_164419.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh_YSBksg_UE80b2qlMiqot4OwYwNdFt2jFOUgde2wys5GXVU0IlHcbtlwDpEn6yfsv6psPlnCcSRP9XIpyuhZmNq6mMUlSpHLcByYzPdxp17CiMHyrzzob-kYelGYG_Em4BgKZnVlAIy45JL01YdvXGg0nCooa38L2YsOmc_Pt3C88zbZQYOamdOCuUWqV/w640-h480/IMG_20231125_164419.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>another small shop in Bangkok, off Soi 6 in Yaowarat (Chinatown), not related to this post</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgkGUxuZMRSt5fvTvvzj3VpTwyIJZHdRvqu-Rv2YlHBDRTf-fnzfoujuiF53TpkJ7FjwwCUi2zvx1BQKJzqIhkg-YS5n0vuJxvCigwtPk07rprAkwYYlz8eVgg6wZ_b-iLDB5JaHZUARQVVgCwj7b5vonQ0zuaiE6JZPO3xb9rKY6MFMSmAcez9stzPj1JF/s1106/IMG_20231125_155343.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgkGUxuZMRSt5fvTvvzj3VpTwyIJZHdRvqu-Rv2YlHBDRTf-fnzfoujuiF53TpkJ7FjwwCUi2zvx1BQKJzqIhkg-YS5n0vuJxvCigwtPk07rprAkwYYlz8eVgg6wZ_b-iLDB5JaHZUARQVVgCwj7b5vonQ0zuaiE6JZPO3xb9rKY6MFMSmAcez9stzPj1JF/w640-h480/IMG_20231125_155343.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the market alley it's in</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><div><br /></div>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-34686700491080302022023-11-26T07:57:00.000-08:002023-11-26T07:57:28.038-08:00Trying out a 7 day fast, settling for 5 days<p> </p><p>I'd meant to fast again before Eye and the kids come back for Christmas, and weighing 2 kg more than normal when I last checked that encouraged me to try longer. I thought that I might have been able to stabilize my weight back a bit lower, 72 or 73 kg instead of the normal 74, if I return to a lighter diet the first week. I haven't weighed myself in the past 7 days (there is no scale at the house); I'll never know how it changed.</p><p>It didn't work, adding two extra days. Nothing too unusual came up, but I think I didn't get electrolyte supplementation right, which I'll say more about here. I started not feeling well 4 days in, then worse on day 5, and quit.</p><p><br /></p><p>Again it was about potential health benefits, more than losing weight. I just saw <a href="https://www.lowkickmma.com/dana-white-86-hour-water-fast/">a news story about Dana White</a>, the UFC (fighting) president claiming fasting reduces cancer risk by 70%. I'm not sure about that but it may reduce risk. There's a chance that I'm experiencing reduced aging effects related to fasting for 26 days in the last year (30 after this, really in just over 12 months). My hair seems to be less grey, down from Keo counting 8 hairs to seemingly even less, and I may be gaining hair back in a pronounced bald spot. The aesthetics makes no difference to me but related to general better health that would be relevant.</p><p>I had been using an easy, familiar cycle of fasting Thursday to Monday, related to the first day being easy, and that only including Friday as a work-day where I'm a bit hungry. Days 4 and 5 were always easy. I planned a whole work-week a bit off this time, M to F, then to see how days 6 and 7 go on the weekend. Day by day notes tell the story.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Day 1: </b> almost no hunger this time, but mental clarity was a bit off. In the evening I walked 45 minutes to go get the cats special food they're now hooked on, with the oldest basically living on fish, and ran 40 minutes as well, a 4+ mile route at the usual 6 minutes per km. It's odd mixing those two units; my phone app is on km, and it seemed like most readers might relate to "freedom units."</p><p>The theory was to spend out glycogen reserves, so instead of doing the ketosis transition between day 2 and 3 to get that over with on day 2. Oddly running feels about the same, with or without eating; my "metabolic flexibility" is pretty good. That's true for days into fasting now too.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Day 2: </b> again not much for hunger, although the general off feeling started in. I tried out drinking an aged sheng to see if that would work (a 19 year old version), related to someone commenting about that specific tea I also owned online. It's not like drinking young sheng, which would be painful on an empty stomach, but it's not a good idea. I'll stick to shu pu'er and aged white, maybe adding a roasted Wuyi Yancha when I want to mix it up, but that's pushing it too.</p><p>People discussing fasting mention an experience of greater mental clarity; I don't get that. Usually by day 4 I'm back to normal, maybe even slightly clearer, but for me days 1 to 3 are a bit off. On day 2 that relates to hunger, and on day 3 typically energy level fluctuation.</p><p>I'll see if that plan to rush the energy source change-over shifts more issues from day 3 to day 2 and tomorrow I'm fine. I'm not hungry at all today; it's strange. If I see food it sounds ok but it's not like before, when I would crave it. I didn't hide anything from myself, so I'm walking past peanuts and raisins, and see yogurt in the refrigerator, where I keep the cup I drink water from.</p><p>I did a bit of laundry; my energy level isn't too far off. Even if I feel somewhat normal I want take it easy for a few days to get the most out of the extra rest.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Day 3: </b> That energy level disruption really did seem to kick in yesterday, and I'm not back to normal early today either. Hunger hasn't been bad at all; I don't think about not eating much. I think that if I can stay a bit busy today and tomorrow I'll notice it less, and then it should just seem normal, probably shifting to less impactful tomorrow. </p><p>I've drank tisanes twice already, more than I typically do for the 5 days, mixing some chrysanthemum into a late round of the shu I had with breakfast on the first day, then drinking some mixed gooseberry, lemongrass, and monkfruit seed tisane yesterday evening. I wrote these notes before I got to it but I drank rosemary brewed as a tisane later in day 3.</p><p>Mentally the idea of fasting for an entire week, including an entire work-week, feels a little more daunting. That time-span includes the US Thanksgiving--tomorrow--but I probably wasn't going to observe that anyway, living alone, with less access to turkey to make it myself, living in Bangkok where it's a normal work-day. Maybe I'll do some sort of make-up meal next week.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Day 4: </b> the end of day 3 was a bit rough yesterday, and today I feel much better. I went to work on-site, which is slightly more demanding, doing a commute, then being there in-person, and walking by quite a bit of food. It's funny how your sense of smell for food increases so much when you are fasting; I swear that I could smell the neighbors eating McDonald's yesterday. In prior fasts the smell of most foods wasn't as bad as food versions that I ended up craving, but I'm feeling the gap now, and seeing or smelling any food reminds me of the fasting status. I suppose that's still an improvement, that I don't think of it unless something reminds me.</p><p>It's Thanksgiving today, back in the US. I told two Thai co-workers that and they had no idea what that means. You can try to find turkey dinners but you won't just walk by a place serving that, so it's not something anyone would notice. For living alone now I wasn't going to try to cook all that anyway. It was a little extreme just drinking salt water instead of eating anything.</p><p>I'm sick of the salt water. Even for closing in on 30 days of fasting, in just over a year, that only ever seems so natural, and I keep adjusting how much I drink in relation to plain water, or the timing, or to an extent even the dosage. Per a r/fasting Reddit sub reference you should be ingesting something like 3 grams of both sodium chloride and potassium chloride, which is a lot. There's no way to know if that's way too much or the right amount. It's impossible to know how fasting changes normal daily intake requirements for electrolytes. Per some references being in ketosis increases sodium demands, which are ordinarily around 1500 mg per day, so going up to 2 or 3 grams might make sense.</p><p>I'm not feeling mental pressure about the fast, too much, but the extended planned time does seem to add extra weight. At least hunger isn't so bad, or energy and mental clarity, which is all normal for day 4. I don't feel close to energetic enough to go for a run.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Day 5: </b> I feel fine as of the morning; energy level might be a little lower than usual but otherwise quite normal. Hunger experience isn't an issue at all; all that seems to drop off after day 3, unless you go to where food is, like I did yesterday. I visited a mall to pick up protein powder for later and walked by lots of grilled foods, ice cream, bakeries, Thai snacks, Japanese restaurants; on and on. It wasn't so bad but it does trigger extra hunger.</p><p>The 5 day routine had felt really normalized, by the 4th time doing it. This doesn't. Oddly electrolyte replacement doesn't go as well as the last two trials. A slightly increased amount seemed like way too much two days ago, as if I couldn't keep up with water input, and I've had trouble getting a balance back. I'm not certain that the Reddit fasting sub's recommendation page for inputs isn't too high; they recommend about 3 grams each of sodium and potassium, at the middle of the range they specify. </p><p>Maybe you really do need a ton of salts to continue with ketosis energy processing, or maybe not nearly that much. Drinking a lot of water is probably a good thing, to help your body sort out whatever conditions you put it through, but I couldn't seem to get thirst and indirect effect of drinking salt water to balance. I cut it back to less than usual yesterday (well under 3 grams of each, closer to 2) and that might be an ok maintenance level. Magnesium is easier; I take two tablets / capsules of 400 mg per day, since only taking one seems to result in negative effects, mostly sleep disruption.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Day 5 update (evening): </b> I wasn't feeling well and ended the fast. A mild sore throat yesterday continued on to today, and energy level issues got worse throughout the day. Something seemed off related to electrolyte intake; it was getting harder and harder to force myself to drink any of that salt-water mix, even though I went lighter on it yesterday, and only made it through half of a pre-measured amount in the evening today. </p><p>I tried going out for a walk after work, and that went ok, so it wasn't energy availability that was an issue, just feeling a bit off. More than seemed appropriate, I guess; someone should feel unusual after not eating for 5 days, but since this was a 5th time doing that the range is somewhat familiar.</p><p>I'll cover what I think happened in conclusions, but maybe I'll never really know. It feels a little disappointing quitting early, but 5 days is a lot, and with things seemingly going worse and worse the next two days were likely to just be enduring more and more.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgZ6-FzMe4gD72bCxfbMZU-TSYJ3QuT83m-lQCEPW3mcyfB0pr_J9oMLalnAI_VnwRml5OS24IEE3RmUTSpUZUHB9nqRB6dcLELpun1-eeTylKjU-lfCfQAOyeAtqcSDqrTXtATnK0gOOXTDm8ETQGVDj6s0MeMO-QM7yuB9BS7WU_KZBSeESvyt2IJ1R2h/s789/electrolyte%20reference.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="774" data-original-width="789" height="628" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgZ6-FzMe4gD72bCxfbMZU-TSYJ3QuT83m-lQCEPW3mcyfB0pr_J9oMLalnAI_VnwRml5OS24IEE3RmUTSpUZUHB9nqRB6dcLELpun1-eeTylKjU-lfCfQAOyeAtqcSDqrTXtATnK0gOOXTDm8ETQGVDj6s0MeMO-QM7yuB9BS7WU_KZBSeESvyt2IJ1R2h/w640-h628/electrolyte%20reference.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>I think a main problem related to electrolyte input variations. This part is a little awkward to share, me getting that wrong, but communicating about the experiences doesn't work with covering all of it.</p><p>Before I was sort of carefully measuring out relatively specific amounts of sodium and potassium based on recommendations from that Reddit fasting sub I keep mentioning, making a mix with water to drink periodically throughout the day. I don't remember exactly where I tried to be in that recommended range every time in the past; somewhere in the middle, not on the low or high side, but I was probably varying it some since I didn't log it, or any such thing.</p><p>In the past I was "measuring" teaspoon amounts using a non-standard measuring spoon, since I've been doing these fasts when my wife is in Honolulu, planning them around that, and I didn't think we had measuring spoons. We don't bake; they don't in Thailand, and we've only ever had a toaster oven, and that's the only time you tend to use those. I found where she kept them though, and I think earlier estimates of amounts were lower than measured amounts. I was going for between 2.5 gram and 3 grams of both sodium and potassium per day, at the lower end of what that reference recommended.</p><p>Still sounds like a lot, doesn't it? It seems that 1.5 grams of sodium is standard for a normal diet, and then ketosis adds extra requirements (maybe; so it seems). Standard daily requirement for potassium is either 3.6 grams or 4.7, depending on the reference you use. Surely no one is getting anywhere near that from a typical diet; on the high side that's eating a dozen bananas. No need to go too far with details here but it's clear from several experiences that if you ingest a lot of sodium and potassium at one time that will have a laxative effect, not only the magnesium input, which is better known. It's counterintuitive that your digestive system would contain enough for a laxative to work 2 or 3 days after eating, but it does, I guess an odd mix of bile, stomach acid, and whatever other digestive fluids.</p><p>It seemed like I ingested more salts than I tolerated well in the middle of that week, and couldn't get back to an equilibrium. I had been drinking tisanes in the evenings the first couple of days, and adding quite a bit of extra water intake may have made a difference. I drank plenty of plain water with the salt water, again not measuring total daily intake though, but at some point it seemed to not balance, and I developed an aversion to the taste of it, beyond it normally seeming gross.</p><p><br /></p><p>Shifting to attempt 7 days made a lot more difference than I expected. Mentally it seemed a lot harder; days 2 or 3 just weren't that close to it all coming to an end, not halfway through yet. Fasting for one whole work-week is a lot. It was much easier doing Thursday and Friday before, then during a weekend, with the first day not impacted at all. Hunger wasn't an issue, and energy level and mental clarity really weren't problematic either, so it wasn't really so bad for work output disruption, but it adds a limited extra degree of mental stress.</p><p>Related to the electrolytes the first and last day of a fast matter less, because you carry over a decent balance on day 1, and plan to get that from food in a meal at the end of the day the last, so for a 5 day span it needs to balance well for only 3 days. I suppose that's why I probably had moved from the lower side of that recommended range to their recommended middle, to not accidentally fall behind (that was their lower limit threshold; I mean before I stayed in the "minimal" range). I had ran a couple of times during the last fast, which would reduce salts in your body a lot, along with the hotter weather then drawing them out.</p><p>I wanted to have the experience of a longer fast version, a week, as a reference for the broader understanding of the process, but I might just stick to 5 days and call it good, probably not trying it again until next year anyway.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-6378566171911328042023-11-19T06:29:00.000-08:002023-11-19T06:29:08.072-08:00Buddhist teachings in relation to white lies<p> </p><p>An interesting subject came up recently, whether it's ok to tell white lies in relation to Buddhist precepts or teachings in relation to being truthful. It seems like that would depend on interpretation, wouldn't it, with lots of context required for which branch or school one is referring to, and the situation? </p><p>Just as Christian teachings and end-point positions on specifics can vary a lot depending on context, the frame of reference (how teachings are taken in a specific group), and per individual it all can vary a lot within Buddhism. The general question seems to reduce to whether or not Buddhist teachings would tend to be more literal. Prior to that one might question if the application of Buddhist teachings is all one thing, somewhat uniform across different schools, or even prior to that if all branches and schools are working from the same set of core teachings. </p><p>They're not the same. The Pali Canon is an older collected set of core teachings, taken up by the Theravada tradition (a broad branch of individual schools, not one unified thing), which to some extent would apply to the other later forms, the other two main broad branches and schools (Mahayana and Vajrayana). I have pretty deep background in all that related to a good bit of personal study and academic review, getting two degrees in religion and philosophy, after my initial degree in Industrial Engineering, but for the most part I want to set all that aside here. I suppose I can spare a few sentences on the history and broad forms, because it's interesting, but it has nothing to do with this answer, since I'm not going to move towards some mapped-out breakdown at any point. </p><p>My input draws on common sense, so this isn't really all that closely related to Buddhism. In a different sense I think that it is, it just doesn't tie back to a specific teaching.</p><p>I'm working towards how this question came up: it was asked in a Reddit Buddhism sub-Reddit (group). That group stays a little more on-topic than Facebook groups tend to, just leaning towards people who participate in foreign traditions, often advocating very narrow perspectives and approaches based on what their own "religion" teaches them. Buddhism is most conventionally a religion, although it can also work as a philosophy (just not as well), and to me even better as a practical guide to introspection and perspective shift. To me at its core that's really what Buddhism is. Mapping that to modern forms of teachings, references, and guidance it can be a little hard to place; it's not exactly psychology, and probably as close to self-help content as anything else. But then the form is completely different.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Buddhism background</h3><p><br /></p><p>The oldest school of Buddhism relates to a first wave of developed references, teachings, and religious traditions. Buddhism originated in Northern India, with the Buddha himself actually from a location that's now in Nepal (with all this from memory; I studied Buddhism as philosophy and also religion, and people in history or religion programs actually covered this in classes, while I didn't). That broad school is called Theravada, or if memory serves in the later Mahayana tradition they renamed it as Hinayana, or "small vehicle." That's not a reference to it being lower or less important; the idea was that later on, in that second wave, practitioners supposedly focused on attaining enlightenment for all beings instead of only themselves, the Bhodisattva ideal, with "small vehicle" a reference to people only trying to become enlightened for themselves. </p><p>It's not as much a divide as it seems, put that way, more just a difference in emphasis and approach. Those waves were historical periods of different forms of teachings being spread; Buddhism was popular, then less, then renewed in broad uptake, in different places at different times. The older tradition started in India and also rooted in Sri Lanka, and now it remains the main religion in Thailand. As we have visited ancient temples throughout South East Asia, in places like Cambodia, and also in Thailand, this history is filled in with more detail as temples converted from one type to another, and art forms changed over time, official state religions did, and so on. I'm not the best personal reference for that side of Buddhism; my memory doesn't hold matrices of ideas as it did back in my 20s and 30s.</p><p>Mahayana spread to become Chinese Buddhism (Chan Buddhism), which merged with Taoist teaching to become Japanese Zen. Or maybe that's an oversimplification, as many of these points must be.</p><p>Then the third main branch or wave is the one based mainly in Tibet, Vajrayana. I studied from this branch as philosophy in a grad school course, and oddly the official core teachings background seemed completely separate from my informal and limited understanding of what the religious practices are really all about (which is normal, oddly). This is the branch that Richard Gere was into, the one that relates to unconventional sexually oriented practices.</p><p>All of this doesn't relate much to where I'm going with the final answer, just filling that in because it might be interesting.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">The Reddit starting point and initial answers there</h3><p><br /></p><p>The question was this: <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/17tukdp/your_friend_cooks_you_a_meal_the_food_is_bad_he/">Your friend cooks you a meal. The food is bad. He asks you whether the food was good. What do you say?</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Additional clarification [part of the same post]:</b> <b>Actual experience I had leading to a question of how I should respond in keeping the precepts.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Most people commented that telling a white lie would be fine, saying that the food is good, and others suggested saying something positive about what was ok about the meal. At least when I first commented no one mentioned telling the truth, saying that the food is bad. Looking back to cite a reference from the comments that input all shifted; later on most people recommend either saying the food is bad or that it's good in some ways and could be better in others.</p><p>Basically that's what I suggested, being honest, just framing that as complimenting the meal in relation to some part being ok, then not avoiding saying that the overall effect is negative, and why. </p><p>It amounts to doxing myself but this was my comment (it's not really an anonymous profile anyway, as those tend to be):</p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>If someone is learning to cook they need that feedback; you have to tell them. It's possible to mix together a compliment about what part of the cooking outcome worked (something had to) and which part didn't. Then you can honestly say that your experience is mixed, and that there is room for improvement, and pass on to them what it is.</b></p><p><b>Once you are close enough with someone you can tell them the complete and honest truth. If my wife makes food that's bad I can say that it's bad, and why, and we can usually even laugh about it. Her cooking was awful for quite awhile, and it got better and better over time, and now when I say that's really good that's exactly what I mean, and she is satisfied in an important way. It's a part of life to learn by starting at the beginning.</b></p><p><b>When you have kids this pattern repeats, over and over. You can keep telling them you are truly awful at this one thing you are only considering doing, but you need to work through that, taking these steps in practice, and you won't be then. You need to nudge them, to say not to give up, or to not even start, but encourage them to move on to working through it. That's why when you tell your friend they've ruined the meal including things that went well and suggestions for changes can help them see the path forward, and you can say that you want to try the next version that's better. Presented in the right way you could even cook them the same dish and point out the small differences, and if your approach is from the heart they won't feel like you are one-upping them. At that point you need to ask them to prepare a better version for you, to ask them to try again.</b></p><p><b>Absolute and complete honesty can set you free, really. You just need to know how to use it to help people.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>One person cited part of core teaching reference, which I thought was a good answer; this lists the first 3 of 6 points of guidance on truthfulness:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>[1] In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial [or: not connected with the goal], unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.</b></p><p><b>[2] In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.</b></p><p><b>[3] In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>You get the point; it takes some reading and thought to sort that out, and it's more interesting when you do. Someone else cited a parable that was described as relating, as an external source link, but I didn't read through that.</p><p>What is the lesson here? It's not about patterns of Reddit comments shifting, or even related to how different schools of Buddhism would vary on lying about telling your friend the meal he made is bad.</p><p>As I see it the lesson is that we need to turn things around and look at what is being discussed from the other person's perspective. Your friend intends to cook you another meal later on, most likely, and to go on practicing cooking for the rest of his or her life. It's nice for them to hear back that the meal is delicious but it's important for them to get good feedback, to know what you think.</p><p><br /></p><p>Then related to lying in general, to white lies, I think we can often respond to others and clarify the context and broader meaning in what we say, and typically not really lie. Using another random example, if someone gets a relatively bad haircut no matter what you say or don't say if they're not going to get another haircut to correct for it that's just how they're going to look for a few weeks, so at first it may seem best if they ask about that to say that they look fine. </p><p>The same problems come up though. They could get the results fixed a bit, trimmed and adjusted further, and if they go back in three weeks and get another bad haircut, and ask you again, it's a recurring cycle that should've been cut off the first time. The same approach might have worked; compliment the length being suitable, but actual style leaving room for improvement, or the opposite. </p><p>My wife has taken to cutting my son's hair and he looks flat-out awful every time, and I go ahead and tell him that every time; she butchered you. He already knows it; saying anything else is clearly ingenuine. Then that stings a little but if we can have a laugh about it when he goes to school and his friends have the same reaction he can play it off with honesty; my Mom took a course in cutting hair--she really did--and she's still terrible at it, and she butchered me. He's not done with looking like that but it's out in the open, accepted; everyone can move on. It's very healthy to not be insecure when part of what you experience is a limitation of sorts, like a bad haircut, or an inability to cook well.</p><p><br /></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjI5V0IA6CQTIhHxZQX4sgrUbxTNspR_MRxMDUAGJc6RmqrdSCWSBWkT1FW3nLsNPomYdMBl42gjQE4xp4mgzq20u0wTxSeiEWTKPGIqGHXaoUFcZA3oIc9ogxSKzj1bKmH4xpK-fAgDzM6kSLwSQIxLhLRzztwldNb1mJiQtRt3ksr1LLV7DKe5YE7GLJl" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjI5V0IA6CQTIhHxZQX4sgrUbxTNspR_MRxMDUAGJc6RmqrdSCWSBWkT1FW3nLsNPomYdMBl42gjQE4xp4mgzq20u0wTxSeiEWTKPGIqGHXaoUFcZA3oIc9ogxSKzj1bKmH4xpK-fAgDzM6kSLwSQIxLhLRzztwldNb1mJiQtRt3ksr1LLV7DKe5YE7GLJl=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the closest photo example I could find; this is after his local barber fixed it</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /></p><p>Even at work, where everyone can't really use the complete truth in expressing opinions, for obvious reasons, I think this kind of general strategy still works. You never need to express a complete lie; you can always mix quite a bit of your real opinion with background context and some other scope from an opposing view to communicate more of what you think, if not all of it. Ok, maybe sometimes a relatively complete lie is in order, if your supervisor tells you to do something that you completely disagree with, and it's just not the time or place to press the point, and then they ask a specific question. Usually I would go with that other approach, mixing two opposing answers, but sometimes you can't, or it just doesn't make sense to.</p><p><br /></p><p>A bit of tangent can help place that, related to part of how I see work themes. To me at work if something doesn't matter then it doesn't matter; if two opposing choices or plans lead to essentially the exact same place then picking the one that you favor is a battle that you don't need to fight. Unfortunately plenty of things framed as important don't really matter, a good bit of the time. Then when things really do make a difference, and a negative outcome seems likely to come up based on a bad choice, that's the time to change communication approach. </p><p>All this could seem off the subject of white lies, but if your work manager asks if a dumb idea seems dumb, and the context is set up in one particular way, then the most honest answer may not be best. If there's no harm in it you can say that's fine. Then if your judgment is off everything won't be fine, and you can learn from that mistake.</p><p><br /></p><p>I think people often get too comfortable with adjusting how they communicate about reality in terms of lying to others. The white lie theme seems to naturally come up more and more often, and drift or morph into telling people whatever works best instead of what is actually accurate, a lot of the time. People catch on to how you communicate, and it's soon clear as day that you don't really mean what you say. Beyond that it can be more positive to be genuine for your own sake, to take communication and representing your own perspective differently. </p><p>There's the old idea that if you don't lie there less to remember, but I mean beyond that. There is a purity in communicating the truth. It's harder, in a sense, because you need to adjust for how others take what you say, which takes some practice. </p><p>In the original example, asking about that prepared meal, it's the simplest thing in the world to say "it's good." Then if you want to instead say "it's bad," without just being rude and thoughtless, you need to add words and layers of concepts, about how it's your intention to be completely honest, and some aspects are fine (citing a couple), and some aren't (referencing those), and then summarizing that in general there's lots of room for improvement, but that it shows cooking skill in some areas. It could seem tiresome. That friend definitely wants to hear "it's good" instead, but the feedback will help them.</p><p>Getting all of this communication approach wrong is a big problem, and without practice in being fully honest one would botch it. It's like cooking, or cutting hair; no one is born good at it. But as with those other things it's important to stick with it. Maybe not the cutting hair; people can skip doing that. </p><p><br /></p><p>One of my kids picked up this pattern of trying to be as honest as possible all of the time from me, and the other picked up the more conventional form from his mother, lying when it's more convenient to. I don't blame him when I catch him doing it, but we often pause to run through how the whole cycle works, how people can only trust you to the extent that they recognize that you typically tell the truth.</p><p>Then an odd secondary theme enters in: if you ask Keoni if he is lying his poker face fails him, badly, and he ends up making a weird series of shifting expressions that Kalani and I refer to as a "melting face." She can stone-cold lie, if she wants to; she just chooses not to, almost all the time. Maybe there is some connection?</p><p><br /></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgjvMYMEgdEFQnlS4bqhm0ZryIPFgZPaKGN4fSOUmS9WQfFPUnCs8Et09U7tuykT5nhQ_F8d0Krzkz0kTr_P2Lu2mlopwNC0Ryy1KdNvITNgQ2su61p_cUMbNYI-zHqEhfta0HhSC39SlQc1NswZIiwtkVWkxmdnZEW97MP0ZFLSkiBS0smFDMqd-ZNOEDT" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgjvMYMEgdEFQnlS4bqhm0ZryIPFgZPaKGN4fSOUmS9WQfFPUnCs8Et09U7tuykT5nhQ_F8d0Krzkz0kTr_P2Lu2mlopwNC0Ryy1KdNvITNgQ2su61p_cUMbNYI-zHqEhfta0HhSC39SlQc1NswZIiwtkVWkxmdnZEW97MP0ZFLSkiBS0smFDMqd-ZNOEDT=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>that's something else; a Gigachad impression</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br />Whether there is or isn't I teach them not to lie, ever, if possible, for the reasons expressed here. They seem to get it, and they're both now good at seeing how interpersonal relations and communication styles work out on that deeper level, and how approaches and outcomes can vary.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-86627485916565507522023-11-19T02:55:00.000-08:002023-11-19T03:26:01.229-08:00Lincang and purple sheng pu'er from a local Bangkok shop<p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhYh3yfSmFk7DG1h0gm8K_k54bA7HGnSu1Rv-5J5gGGSPfSaXiL9xCmtg_1jy8FjEbjgibKDYotzLf-AEctJWLGRVGjYdfTOtE1KKDZWMOngKQpCK37L9K2moffTkXoGsI3uO8hr-bI0lfmIBBs3kbPlNSSJNAQeF_Edtx9yXN_k69icj8nn3Mk4rrqbS1k/s1106/Ju%20Jen%20Lincang%20and%20purple%20sheng%20IMG_20231119_133208.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhYh3yfSmFk7DG1h0gm8K_k54bA7HGnSu1Rv-5J5gGGSPfSaXiL9xCmtg_1jy8FjEbjgibKDYotzLf-AEctJWLGRVGjYdfTOtE1KKDZWMOngKQpCK37L9K2moffTkXoGsI3uO8hr-bI0lfmIBBs3kbPlNSSJNAQeF_Edtx9yXN_k69icj8nn3Mk4rrqbS1k/w640-h480/Ju%20Jen%20Lincang%20and%20purple%20sheng%20IMG_20231119_133208.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEinFEd3Uj38232R9IGmyNLABYvfcxk3FRp_k_3aOEPP_Pcdy1NQZUEd_d3gKmC_yO8RWGwVBXeW8P-PGE-cHIpVklrZg3RALhXjHovy82gTafmtE6ZihyphenhyphenlUO7sWlesaXJ-nM5g9S_mkb9QI2aZPAmLLrM65rX4pTlGMhH9e-m6c0zDhshVM3lEhXXmf2D6t/s1107/Ju%20Jen%20sheng%20versions,%20Lincang%20and%20purple%20IMG_20231119_133010.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1107" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEinFEd3Uj38232R9IGmyNLABYvfcxk3FRp_k_3aOEPP_Pcdy1NQZUEd_d3gKmC_yO8RWGwVBXeW8P-PGE-cHIpVklrZg3RALhXjHovy82gTafmtE6ZihyphenhyphenlUO7sWlesaXJ-nM5g9S_mkb9QI2aZPAmLLrM65rX4pTlGMhH9e-m6c0zDhshVM3lEhXXmf2D6t/w640-h480/Ju%20Jen%20sheng%20versions,%20Lincang%20and%20purple%20IMG_20231119_133010.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>I visited a local shop recently to connect with an online contact, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/Juzhentea">the Ju Jen Tea shop</a> in the Paradise Park mall (<a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/awQp2VEXY2q9m9y37">out towards the airport and Bangna</a>; out there). I've been to an earlier iteration of that shop, and mentioned it in this blog many years ago, when they were in a smaller food court stall. Now it's a conventional shop, still in that food court zone.</p><p>It was very nice hanging out at that shop, and meeting other local tea enthusiasts, and the owner, who is very kind, and a gracious host. I recommend visiting there.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEige3zOJZiJo8RRW26fwFX3a88fsTfOXdlSMiF85hMlEQm7wFEWL7Oi8JLrcIA6z6phrLELHgmQN6qtyjP0Z0mQuP22IrngsKDyAF3sztIrlKZCtkEf99CS7RvpVShs0KtJuNJHPg4ZWnjh63Tl-bKgYuBpnco-BaOZH48Xnqbn8SwW_kBahC11640wtJOA/s1106/Ju%20Jen%20tea%20IMG_20231117_202821.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEige3zOJZiJo8RRW26fwFX3a88fsTfOXdlSMiF85hMlEQm7wFEWL7Oi8JLrcIA6z6phrLELHgmQN6qtyjP0Z0mQuP22IrngsKDyAF3sztIrlKZCtkEf99CS7RvpVShs0KtJuNJHPg4ZWnjh63Tl-bKgYuBpnco-BaOZH48Xnqbn8SwW_kBahC11640wtJOA/w640-h480/Ju%20Jen%20tea%20IMG_20231117_202821.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>for sure there is a lot to explore in that shop</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><div><br /></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjGSq6wGPV5eOWhNEvhAjdtaxOgFDGolLBji82nBkYp0G-WheQAf8T6oG4Q50lNzRi4ab6YhkqwQLHCiRqA7PEE8s3_hqjG4W3f3W6Lc4c7wV2Oh0C5QMtV5quQAo522G-eqqz7VpQ83UrqaTqRkITovowhWwlIuM94THU6nC31PBCIORGW_uUeCX_oKohX/s1106/IMG_20231117_202909.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjGSq6wGPV5eOWhNEvhAjdtaxOgFDGolLBji82nBkYp0G-WheQAf8T6oG4Q50lNzRi4ab6YhkqwQLHCiRqA7PEE8s3_hqjG4W3f3W6Lc4c7wV2Oh0C5QMtV5quQAo522G-eqqz7VpQ83UrqaTqRkITovowhWwlIuM94THU6nC31PBCIORGW_uUeCX_oKohX/w640-h480/IMG_20231117_202909.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>This will be mostly about the tea, but the background of it will be sparse. One I only know as a 2017 purple material version, and the other I think is from Lincang, and it probably has a date on an inner wrapper. That's going to be it for tea background. We weren't talking a lot about these particular teas, and I tried a 1980s shu and some very high end Chinese green tea while there, a sample another guest brought, the kind of tea that sells for over $5 a gram. That's too much, of course, but so it can go with rare and well-regarded teas in China. It was pleasant, at least.</p><p>I just wrote a review yesterday (the notes) about an 80s Liu Bao version from Thailand, and it keeps occurring to me that I don't value stories and background enough to make rare and exceptional teas stand out so much to me. If the tea is good it's good, but the moment doesn't necessarily become more special in relation to backstories, and I'm not swept up in extra feelings. If I see people wearing robes or martial arts clothing it all becomes that much more absurd to me, instead of venturing into special event range. To be clear I wasn't offended or put off by that shop owner dressing the part; it's fine. But at the most it doesn't mean anything to me.</p><p>On with the tasting part then. I won't cross reference other experience all that much, because I don't have a Lincang standard aspects range in mind to compare this to, and I may have only ever tried two purple leaf tea versions before, not counting a commercial black tea version from Kenya, which is really something else. The one brick I bought of that was a bit sour; it will be interesting to see if that's consistent in this. If it relates to two versions being sour that doesn't mean that purple teas in general are. They are said to be fruity in an unusual way, a bit towards grape (and often a little sour); I'll keep an eye out for that.</p><p>The Lincang (if it is that) has 2021 written and stamped on the label; that had been under a desiccant pack wrapped within a plastic outer seal. Intuitively one would drink the lighter tea first, which I would guess would be the purple one, but I'll reverse that to use the more standard tea as a baseline for comparison.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj5n_vTHd-pQnGQRdiZL-x_p_Nk4JIZs63L3raPCpJmLUEm6nDgCfAYD3NmOXskY-nolXO-PjG7OEWreF3cIUWemldFLFyRtaEEK4ZrDFzpyf61T4XF1llyiluQWE6RYo9xRGH71S435PkhWlbAppEl6QsfQw5hlG-4LOv8UJ4UImYW8TbNkVRa5c-_ITvp/s1106/JJ%20sheng%20dry.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj5n_vTHd-pQnGQRdiZL-x_p_Nk4JIZs63L3raPCpJmLUEm6nDgCfAYD3NmOXskY-nolXO-PjG7OEWreF3cIUWemldFLFyRtaEEK4ZrDFzpyf61T4XF1llyiluQWE6RYo9xRGH71S435PkhWlbAppEl6QsfQw5hlG-4LOv8UJ4UImYW8TbNkVRa5c-_ITvp/w640-h480/JJ%20sheng%20dry.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgG9yf52KnGbUQXY964JI2rYR2T6WKMakxbApDrq8U3EpUrrnXBiG-FeaZXuCuGrJGg2fO9KI84rE1ZtBW7Toehf4fhAS3swC3YPDW1xGmOwwLttnuvLzpEjhTPtb-Ri2pOqHgrytO-QLRuvS6zmXHTN90JQj53Wq2RqtprA7FTDrR5L04kUocHWUezUH67/s1106/JJ%20sheng%201.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgG9yf52KnGbUQXY964JI2rYR2T6WKMakxbApDrq8U3EpUrrnXBiG-FeaZXuCuGrJGg2fO9KI84rE1ZtBW7Toehf4fhAS3swC3YPDW1xGmOwwLttnuvLzpEjhTPtb-Ri2pOqHgrytO-QLRuvS6zmXHTN90JQj53Wq2RqtprA7FTDrR5L04kUocHWUezUH67/w640-h480/JJ%20sheng%201.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><p><b>Lincang: </b> too light to get a complete sense of this round, but it's already quite pleasant, sweet and complex. This is going to be nice. There is a lot going on for flavor, plenty of floral range, and a catchy mild fruit tone, a little towards bubble gum. It seems disrespectful putting it that way; that wouldn't be a conventional interpretation. I'll do more of a flavor list next round.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Purple: </b> That's just crazy. There is a substantial amount of sourness to that, even brewed light. An odd mineral base range grounds it too, warm tones, that are quite unusual. Feel includes a touch of dryness, astringency that would make as much sense in a black tea version. It's the rest of the flavor that is most unique; I'll have a go at capturing it in a flavor list next round.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiwOgrIpRT1ebOfU-rO8Zmv047M6RjNAD1JnctOIhHgTYSzz3Dz7biAqqeTh0kRBwVnEuDAxdSHvaaAjH2mnsW0gHw3QphL57F7XYVtQS7QXhlQWZhZ44ITNc8y_a1xbbCCp5ZvCLYN3IyrqIf_AhXIZ62wAPUtosaJ2z2Sf_mt-Xu2mg8Hk2vvmj-fGgtv/s1106/JJ%20sheng%202.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiwOgrIpRT1ebOfU-rO8Zmv047M6RjNAD1JnctOIhHgTYSzz3Dz7biAqqeTh0kRBwVnEuDAxdSHvaaAjH2mnsW0gHw3QphL57F7XYVtQS7QXhlQWZhZ44ITNc8y_a1xbbCCp5ZvCLYN3IyrqIf_AhXIZ62wAPUtosaJ2z2Sf_mt-Xu2mg8Hk2vvmj-fGgtv/w640-h480/JJ%20sheng%202.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Lincang, second infusion:</b> there's that bitterness, quite pronounced this round. I really like the way this floral effect comes across. It's intense. Sweetness is very pronounced, and the flavor range carries over very nicely as a aftertaste. If someone told me this was a high quality tea version from an exclusive and in-demand area I'd be inclined to believe it. If I've got the story right it's from a village area that's not one of the main, known areas (translated through someone else from the shop owner, so who knows). </p><p>It's hard to go further than "floral" for description; that's it. I might do more with specifying which types of flowers, but I'm not good at that. It's sweet, complex, and very aromatic, let's say most like orchids (just a guess). It's heavy, towards lavender, but not quite that rich and deep a flavor range.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Purple:</b> this is really crazy. I let both brew a bit long, around 20 seconds, and infusion strength is too high for this version, just not the other; funny it worked out that way. It has a dry edge to it. Too dry; I'll need to go quite light on the next round and brew around that. The odd fruity flavor is cool, different, but ruined by that feel in this proportion. I wonder if this isn't a bit oxidized? It's crazy that it ends up feeling like that, completely unconventional for any sheng version. It's essentially outside of conventional tea range, as if this is some sort of tisane.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgOGkQkhVqtesETckrtAA32pU7MHW5PefRtxWQGxWAs7XUNKxDnP98HuvyHN0DNhVVPWO4S1eCWjDp1J6rbhlsw5D2Gs7shyNGOMopG2V95N6KlJJgiiMIyjSxUsd_NnP6PzTrKTufjM3AaGWvi6oQRFJWVSqdgH4gW9QrjPPbnsjXHXTDk-ya2D0m799lZ/s1106/JJ%20sheng%203.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgOGkQkhVqtesETckrtAA32pU7MHW5PefRtxWQGxWAs7XUNKxDnP98HuvyHN0DNhVVPWO4S1eCWjDp1J6rbhlsw5D2Gs7shyNGOMopG2V95N6KlJJgiiMIyjSxUsd_NnP6PzTrKTufjM3AaGWvi6oQRFJWVSqdgH4gW9QrjPPbnsjXHXTDk-ya2D0m799lZ/w640-h480/JJ%20sheng%203.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Lincang, third infusion:</b> similar, very floral, with plenty of bitterness, and a rich, full feel. For anyone not ok with bitterness this would be quite challenging, but for me it's ok.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Purple:</b> it's more approachable brewed fast and light, but still strange, in a way that's more bad than good. The flavor is interesting; maybe that does taste a bit like grape. Not exactly like grape jelly, but more like the old grape juice. Concord grape? My great grandfather had a grape vine and those had that one strong and interesting grape flavor, with a really strong and dry feel to the skin. A little like this, I guess. </p><p>Sheng being dry is just odd. It's hard to place what real tea is anything like this. It's like tasting some kind of metal, like tasting a galvanized roofing nail. It's a little sour too. I can't say that it's good but at least it's interesting. It's a little like the flavor and feel of eating unripe mango, which I had with breakfast. I love ripe mango more, and don't tend to even buy the other range, but versions had some yellow skin color, along with being mostly green, so I bought three to try them. They're sweeter than most unripe mango but still quite sour, with a dry feel, not completely unlike this tea.</p><p>I bought a Thai wild origin material cake made by Kittichai of Jip Eu (that shop owner) that's quite sour, made from wild growing plant types that I doubt are all conventional Assamica. I bought a second cake version of it, even though it's hard to get a feel for how much I like that, so that I can see how it ages. I'm not even drinking the first cake much, so I have at least half left, a half dozen years later. That second cake I'll probably have still intact in another decade. It would be nice if it somehow ages unusually well but my guess is the opposite, that it won't change as much as conventional tea, and the intensity will just fade, more than warmer tones will evolve.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Lincang, 4th infusion: </b> brewing both these fairly quickly, around 10 seconds, works well for this tea version. When we tried teas at that shop they were brewed even lighter, wispy thin, which is one normal preference range. Somehow that makes it even easier to identify flavor range, but feel mostly drops out (mouthfeel, I mean; who knows about cha qi). I guess that I like a medium strength infusion that many would consider brewed strong, which varies along with what suites a tea. </p><p>This has plenty of intensity, complexity, sweetness, bitterness, and rich feel to come across well brewed light. It balances well made that way. Again this wouldn't be light to everyone, just normal to many.</p><p><br /></p><p>These are the worst flavor-list interpretations of any teas I've reviewed for ages; they reduce to "floral" and then "sour and dry in feel." I was talking to my kids while writing those notes. They sometimes play video games while we talk, so doing something else while I talk can work out, but it's distracting.</p><p>I haven't done justice to describing a vegetal range input in this. It's kind of a green wood tone, not completely different than the pronounced range in that favorite Thai sheng I drink all the time, the one from Aphiwat, but that's more like plant stem, and this is plain green wood. Strong aftertaste is pleasant; the experience doesn't diminish after you swallow it, and the form of that aftertaste is pleasant, very sweet and rich, all floral range.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Purple: </b> this makes the most sense that it has so far. Warm tones join in, along with the dominant sourness and dry feel. There's an inky character to that extra flavor, overlapping with mineral range, but going well beyond that too. It reminds me of the smell of a tar based shingle on a hot day, not exactly like tar, but based completely on it. It's odd how a construction theme has evolved in tasting this, all based around roofing. If you could taste the experience of putting a new shingle roof on a house this would be it. Then it's a separate question if that's a good thing.</p><p>Interpreted differently that could be incense spice that's picking up, something along the line of frankincense. It sounds better, that this is like drinking the experience of smelling incense, instead of brewing up roofing materials. A lot of that flavor is captured in mineral tone range too, what your tongue identifies, so it's not just the aromatic range. It's actually pleasant, this round. The others less so; the experience has evolved to become more approachable.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Lincang, 5: </b> this will be it for notes; my patience is running out. This is the most pleasant this tea has been; it's softening and gaining depth in a very pleasant way. I would guess it has a few more rounds like this in it too, that it will be exceptional for another 4 or 5 infusions, before it ends up fading some. Even then this might make another 10 rounds; it's pretty strong tea. This has been a pleasant surprise, better than I expected. I think this is quite good tea.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Purple: </b> this is the best it has been too; that dry feel keeps fading, and sourness diminishing as a main input. It's fruitier now, more along the lines of grape, I guess. That might be from the power of suggestion, that I was expecting that. It's nice how that fruit integrates with what is more of an aromatic spice range aspect now. It could as easily make no sense together, but the two link together quite well. </p><p>For novelty this is much more interesting than the other version. In relation to being judged in relation to standard sheng character range this is off the map, while the other is in a favorable range. These have both been interesting and pleasant. It's nice this evolved as favorably as it did, so I can conclude that. Two rounds ago it would've left off at at least being interesting.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg0PxssSjbTokGxrY1Y8N3ixrR4H2fvvDZCKVujiAooPjsSrwNRRuWRRfvtnq2WZ1gTSQlxcC6jBU7OjBJQrC7j02zmCZogfvm-DtuKu3Jt2EPW_T8XgbKx5ISX1TXCuNnypdnDsWD_OfDMOvcZJSGmWiPERv_WVR7T0j7KCnhbVmvlVBliS33FHP2_zYnd/s3648/IMG_20231119_145940.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2736" data-original-width="3648" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg0PxssSjbTokGxrY1Y8N3ixrR4H2fvvDZCKVujiAooPjsSrwNRRuWRRfvtnq2WZ1gTSQlxcC6jBU7OjBJQrC7j02zmCZogfvm-DtuKu3Jt2EPW_T8XgbKx5ISX1TXCuNnypdnDsWD_OfDMOvcZJSGmWiPERv_WVR7T0j7KCnhbVmvlVBliS33FHP2_zYnd/w640-h480/IMG_20231119_145940.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>Two really interesting and pleasant teas. I didn't mention value yet; that's another part of the story. If I'm remembering right the Lincang version was about 350 baht, or $10, and the purple material version was 800 or so, so just over $20. These were a good value for that.</p><p>Then it's interesting how I like the Lincang version quite a bit more, and how it matches standard good quality sheng more. That's how it would go though, that the complete novelty of the other being purple leaf material could raise the cost. It's older too, but I doubt that improved it much, or would even in another decade or more.</p><p>It's interesting considering that the Lincang version would cost about $35 for a standard cake size; that's fantastic, for what this tea is. Then it makes sense that it's from an off area, not a place of origin in high demand, so it could be sold for a good value even though the quality and character really stand out.</p><p>All that is relative though, right? It's better than most of what I normally drink, but for being on a tight tea budget the 50 cents to $1 a gram range is inaccessible to me. The Thai sheng I've been drinking isn't easy to place on a quality scale, in relation to Yunnan versions, because the style is slightly different, and that changes everything. The material used to make Aphiwat's versions is clearly amazing, but it's still a little unusual in style. I love it, but then others might not even like it.</p><p>This purple leaf tea is all the more like that; some sheng drinkers might love it, and others hate it. It definitely works for novelty. It would be interesting doing a comparison tasting of this along with the "probably not Assamica" version I mentioned buying from Kittichai. Both are a bit sour, both somewhat challenging. This purple version seems much better after the initial 5 infusions or so, which is odd. That kind of thing is normal for rough edged, really-should-be-aged younger sheng versions, but for those a more conventional form of astringency and bitterness would settle over some rounds, not this completely atypical version of those.</p><p>A lot of people might think that they really should go back and get more of that Lincang. It's too far of a drive, on the opposite side of town, and in general I'm fine with getting to what I get to in teas. It would be nice to have 3 or 4 more of these tiny cakes, and if I made it back out there I would buy at least a couple, but I can live without them. With just a few minor changes to that character it would have amazing aging potential, if the feel structure was just a bit more developed, and intensity dialed up just a little. As it is the tea is quite good now and will continue to be for quite awhile, maybe on into when it is aged, but that's harder to guess.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-26242282524947004212023-11-19T01:58:00.000-08:002023-11-19T01:58:55.183-08:001980s Thai Liu Bao<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi9Fw_nGRylMg16a_EXz-coOXFZf9BVDq1BFdRbOHT_I1dnjzT2ImiTUZN5obzweN91i1snUJCOh1bBL0HgRLXqYf3X6r19_vXIYPl33Wipe2fFwRkSB5oeXX9N99Wc-ERCrECLi1GIaf6wcIPpT9Qptqc4ooz1E5eImp4bMg5dZf3F1MvOu8XghDjBNtsy/s830/1980s%20Thai%20Liu%20bIMG_20231118_095353.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="807" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi9Fw_nGRylMg16a_EXz-coOXFZf9BVDq1BFdRbOHT_I1dnjzT2ImiTUZN5obzweN91i1snUJCOh1bBL0HgRLXqYf3X6r19_vXIYPl33Wipe2fFwRkSB5oeXX9N99Wc-ERCrECLi1GIaf6wcIPpT9Qptqc4ooz1E5eImp4bMg5dZf3F1MvOu8XghDjBNtsy/w622-h640/1980s%20Thai%20Liu%20bIMG_20231118_095353.jpg" width="622" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>Bruce, a friend in Chiang Mai, passed on some tea samples, which I've already reviewed one of, a Rou Gui from Wuyi Origin. This is 1980's Thai Liu Bao, something different. I don't know that I've ever had, or even heard of, Thai origin Liu Bao. </p><p>There is a long tradition of Chinese people visiting other South East Asian countries to make tea from tea plants already growing there, surely related to an earlier tradition of Chinese influence. For sure people from China made this tea, either visiting to do so or local immigrants.</p><p>The color doesn't look exactly like in that first photo. It was an odd shade of light brown, leaning a little towards grey, but not exactly like the picture, which is a little washed out from bright sun conditions (I've been into outdoor tasting lately). You can imagine how it really looked; a little browner.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><b><br /></b></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhKZ00p97oT1rsrB14xxC9_nLs8fUVoa84MmrCIhDsDxCb78TVbMqDVg6lEKTAE8dS9mRYsGOLHR12YlRIUUeHByf8UgGqgZZ2e_7jSl1wRkQgbMNTwFKB0D67AvvHb_aZrQEQsATciARCYRZHmi-nVj0YsiJS47czqlhON-KAYffZwZyJz08ilsvcqArph/s830/Thai%20LB%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="623" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhKZ00p97oT1rsrB14xxC9_nLs8fUVoa84MmrCIhDsDxCb78TVbMqDVg6lEKTAE8dS9mRYsGOLHR12YlRIUUeHByf8UgGqgZZ2e_7jSl1wRkQgbMNTwFKB0D67AvvHb_aZrQEQsATciARCYRZHmi-nVj0YsiJS47czqlhON-KAYffZwZyJz08ilsvcqArph/w480-h640/Thai%20LB%201.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><b><br /></b><p></p><p><b>First infusion:</b> this is unique at least. Liu Bao tends to very often have a rough edge of some sort, a harsh dry mineral aspect, or an off storage related flavor input, something different. This is much closer to pretty good shu pu'er than any version I've tried. So I guess that means this is the pre-fermented variation? I would place this as shu based on just trying it. There's a light, dry mineral edge that's typical of Liu Bao, but the rest is a complete match. [Later edit:] Bruce said that he thinks it was pre-fermented, so the "ripe" version of Liu Bao.</p><p>Then it's on to how I feel about shu; as I've repeated here 100 times it seems a lot like all the same thing to me, varying less than most other tea types. Some green or white tea versions can be a little like that too, depending, or lighter Tie Guan Yin. Flavor range is decent for this, complex, warm and earthy, with some sweetness, and a touch of cacao. Feel and minimal aftertaste are ok; it's good. I'll let it brew a little longer again next time, out towards 30 seconds again, to see if it really opens up. If it just develops a little this will be pretty good but if it can add depth and go through some transition maybe unusually interesting.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEia5HKeO1wPERKMg-GQz9E6NlHgLeKXLhJwcKDbVFEn6mjp7l5tI_Y_B7x1xypKYxPkA2qlxqsKi80fZGPSj95TQ8rWPMNsV78QZqoU2BR33WPaxodRd8tSh4oitKg4sV99Eg_3ZB_Wik4tZEZqjiiBqIzlfD4TkOcyDxe2yI2YXv23cLPJnZiHQreowe_h/s830/Thai%20LB%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="626" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEia5HKeO1wPERKMg-GQz9E6NlHgLeKXLhJwcKDbVFEn6mjp7l5tI_Y_B7x1xypKYxPkA2qlxqsKi80fZGPSj95TQ8rWPMNsV78QZqoU2BR33WPaxodRd8tSh4oitKg4sV99Eg_3ZB_Wik4tZEZqjiiBqIzlfD4TkOcyDxe2yI2YXv23cLPJnZiHQreowe_h/w482-h640/Thai%20LB%202.jpg" width="482" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Second infusion: </b> creaminess ramped up and a touch of marshmallow entered in. This is really different. Then it's odd that this is so close to shu range, more like that than any Liu Bao I've ever tried. They are closely related tea types, per my understanding, with shu wet-pile fermentation processing based on Liu Bao processing, but usually results aren't this similar. I would guess this has some age on it too, that it's this smooth and clean because it has settled for awhile. Bruce mentioned something about the age but I don't remember it; I can look that up. It's a Thai version from the 1980's; that's some age alright, maybe around 35 years.</p><p>So this is probably the most interesting Liu Bao I've yet to try in terms of aspect character and background story. Then it's still just ok, pretty good, interesting and pleasant, related to interpretation in light of my preferences. It's sort of similar to that 2006 (7?) gushu shu version that John Lim shared with me, towards light, sweet, clean, and fruity, with some cacao range, and even marshmallow in common.</p><p>I tried a shu from the 80s in a rare shop visit outing last night, oddly, which tasted a lot more like either old books, old furniture, or dirt than this. Some of that is the specific storage input; if a tea spent 35 years in an attic it would pick up flavor from that. I don't know where this tea could've been to be this clean in effect. Everything in Thailand tends to go a bit musty because of the really high humidity half the year, and high heat 90% of the time. </p><p>It's cool out now, oddly, maybe 25 or so, mid 70s F. I'll finish these notes and go for a run; it'll be the first cool weather outing since getting back here in June. It's too bad I'm not a morning person; it had been down to 22, which is towards 70 instead. [Later edit:] I ran 10 km in about 61 minutes, the fastest I've covered that normal route. Cool weather helped a lot. I would probably be pushing km times down under 5 1/2 minutes based on the last three months of training if I wasn't always running in low 30s C / over 90 F temperatures.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgvMi6EbmtBM2k213u2DAqilvk4wfIlaB3P0ZHkCTQbV-f6dbFED3w9MYu6j6tLHLWgNY4o2d-9OWO8hvxbUjM5HmV22Bx9Xto5ITmsZToHWtXSjYW-Qaft4PqIjkiZ3BDM9VFPQrUMBF0F51hyphenhyphenHUXGRBgUaei82_wTKXhyiCLNubd0Rb_iGz0aFKcVY4wf/s830/Thai%20LB%203.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="623" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgvMi6EbmtBM2k213u2DAqilvk4wfIlaB3P0ZHkCTQbV-f6dbFED3w9MYu6j6tLHLWgNY4o2d-9OWO8hvxbUjM5HmV22Bx9Xto5ITmsZToHWtXSjYW-Qaft4PqIjkiZ3BDM9VFPQrUMBF0F51hyphenhyphenHUXGRBgUaei82_wTKXhyiCLNubd0Rb_iGz0aFKcVY4wf/w480-h640/Thai%20LB%203.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Third infusion: </b> evolving a little, but still similar. Slate mineral depth picks up, and cacao with a light coffee note are pleasant, and complex in a limited sense. It's odd how clean this is. Rough edges from a fermentation process settling out over a decade or two is normal, never mind 35 years, but this storage related input is so clean.</p><p>This tea is a bit wasted on me; plenty of people would really appreciate this. It's clearly quite good, and the story is interesting, but to me this is pretty close to drinking well above average quality shu, 20 or 25 cent a gram tea. This would make a nice Teas We Like product listing, something short and succinct, about it being representative of some classic type, with a few favorable aspects and general character. </p><p>It's good, but I'd just as soon drink a medium quality and inexpensive Jing Mai sheng, and would rather have more novel young Thai sheng. White teas tend to have that effect on me; I think well above average versions are pleasant, and then that's it. Something like a complex and more dynamic Nepal white is a different story, with layers of light base mineral and intense fruit. This experience is more like pretty good aged shou mei; you get it that there's something to it, but it still lacks impact. </p><p>Feel is pretty smooth and rich for this, and aftertaste carry-over is fine, but range this mellow isn't much to stand out as an aftertaste expression.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Fourth infusion: </b> more of the same; this is probably a good place to take a round off notes.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1a1oaHvmILxEqWb_oW1rnW8egpKCqogfvOqAO0FYfvlqKoTehKgpEFSTWpHwIoeflTZx0UCV3kB8w3CvhO6LWfu5UhhzAjzW48Tu7ECv5rsA58Gqi5zXWG_LfHlZBAMt1lfY-X-MFygLUzoN9lA4GMEK5AgYWmZrbJD94MiiTz2NrH0sM33bhfNeefVko/s830/Thai%20LB%204.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="623" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg1a1oaHvmILxEqWb_oW1rnW8egpKCqogfvOqAO0FYfvlqKoTehKgpEFSTWpHwIoeflTZx0UCV3kB8w3CvhO6LWfu5UhhzAjzW48Tu7ECv5rsA58Gqi5zXWG_LfHlZBAMt1lfY-X-MFygLUzoN9lA4GMEK5AgYWmZrbJD94MiiTz2NrH0sM33bhfNeefVko/w480-h640/Thai%20LB%204.jpg" width="480" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>Fifth infusion: </b> a light coffee note picks up a little, otherwise this is about the same. It's holding up ok, maybe just fading ever so slightly, so that if it makes 3 or 4 more rounds they'll probably just be thinner and thinner, maybe with one more slight transition in aspect range. I guess that's ok; it is what it is. It's quite good. People more into story value, who add more through imagination to their tea experience, would probably get a lot more out of this. Or I guess if someone loves shu range, but really likes it to be cleaner in effect than it essentially ever is, this would be perfect for them.</p><p>I suppose alternate interpretations could work, that someone could pick up tisane / spice range in this, or could see the age as making more difference, adding an old book flavor base or the like. To me this is pretty close to gong ting shu character, a version 5 or 10 years old, that had time to air out. It trades out some lighter edge for depth but basic flavor is about the same.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>Bruce mentioned that it works well to brew a late round really long, for minutes, and after one or two more I tried that. It was exceptional. Tisane or spice range flavor really came out in that, heavier and warmer, again still very sweet and clean. I tried a second very long infusion and it was similar, just not as intense, but still quite pleasant, unusually so.</p><p>This tea is really something, very novel and pleasant. A shu pu'er drinker would almost certainly absolutely love this, unless they were somehow really into challenging range in shu, the heavier peat, tar, petroleum, or petrichor (dirt) flavors. I get it, people use that last obscure term more related to a scent in the air after it rains, and so on, but per my understanding it also works as a description of the smell of dirt.</p><p>Maybe Liu Bao is supposed to be like this, and I've just been trying heavier and earthier flavored versions, with lots more rough edges that seem to relate to storage conditions input? One older version that I tried from Yunnan Sourcing was only drinkable after I gave it an extra six months to air out, sitting in a cardboard bag on an open shelf, clearing a strong attic smell. If I loved shu this would be amazing, but as it was it still very nice.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-13272440551569608382023-11-13T07:27:00.000-08:002023-11-13T07:27:52.473-08:00Comparing 2006 and 2012 Xiaguan tuochas<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEglbcsxDAVs7PPq0hxU4ZqB1NNqWuoBaSAodmMdfdpn0LDAu97emsaBlUFtxfnmrFvLqqFlYTaD92j5g4x5spECHjv-_Vx-iD5fdUFVKxwKvBY7EZGbmqCAEmWBXXTJHJm_71UoylYbjEz8G98cSDQNr6MZ6oOU_8vk1NhQU5DPlDR4-syihR8caCJY95v3/s1106/IMG_20231112_121133.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEglbcsxDAVs7PPq0hxU4ZqB1NNqWuoBaSAodmMdfdpn0LDAu97emsaBlUFtxfnmrFvLqqFlYTaD92j5g4x5spECHjv-_Vx-iD5fdUFVKxwKvBY7EZGbmqCAEmWBXXTJHJm_71UoylYbjEz8G98cSDQNr6MZ6oOU_8vk1NhQU5DPlDR4-syihR8caCJY95v3/w640-h480/IMG_20231112_121133.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>Why compare 9 year old and 17 year old Xiaguan tuochas, when the 17 year old version might still need another half dozen years to age-transition to be optimum? It's more appropriate than those 4 to 6 year old aging snapshot reviews I've done in the past. At least these are closing in on ready, one 6 years ahead of the other.</p><p>I visited my favorite Bangkok Chinatown shop recently, Jip Eu, and asked what other Xiaguan tuochas they have, since I've bought a number of these 2012 versions. It's funny how that goes in there; if you don't ask it would never come up. Kittichai, the owner, said that he doesn't have very many 2006 versions left so he's not selling them, but he did sell me one. I bet that's still more of a count than when a tea enthusiast says that he or she only has a little left. He mentioned the grade name but I forgot that.</p><p>We tried the tea together there then, since he had another open, and I had time to visit. It's good. It's a little musty; their storage seems a bit extra enclosed, so inclined to add a slight musty edge of flavor to the teas. That fades after some months, stored elsewhere. I'm not sure if it's so much of a bad thing because hot, humid, and enclosed conditions age / ferment sheng fast, so a decade can seem like 15 years of transition, and balancing more positive or neutral flavor input may not work out. </p><p>Hot and humid enclosed conditions cause a funkiness to come up everywhere. It's just awful for a room full of books here at our house; it basically ruins them, fermenting even that. Anyway, on with trying these two teas. Or I should mention that their shop is <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/3MBPtZTm4n5fjdDi7">here, on Maps</a>, with a page <a href="https://www.facebook.com/threeshelltea">here on FB</a>.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEie5OyAXUcU0uQ3Q1DbO1M6kXgoMsoeanUKPhkTH5H7fjE_8NgBH_VsAka5ZIMNqOFSPLmH1Mgd8oUt7q_5LMA47UfhHLIUDA7OEipoaaGVsD81XXxt-Y7zyaKwozGf-_2fYtBWOm-h8-15nK8HeY6oWyEspJ3TODAqpRC5KKxRnI8QcslFy1LMGPKK9Ifp/s869/Jip%20Eu%20Xiaguan%20tuo,%202006.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="869" height="612" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEie5OyAXUcU0uQ3Q1DbO1M6kXgoMsoeanUKPhkTH5H7fjE_8NgBH_VsAka5ZIMNqOFSPLmH1Mgd8oUt7q_5LMA47UfhHLIUDA7OEipoaaGVsD81XXxt-Y7zyaKwozGf-_2fYtBWOm-h8-15nK8HeY6oWyEspJ3TODAqpRC5KKxRnI8QcslFy1LMGPKK9Ifp/w640-h612/Jip%20Eu%20Xiaguan%20tuo,%202006.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>you can't tell much from this appearance</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjtxhBKtPtGb30kLx_sfI_Xnsur1g1sEGboyS70MkxEhFBWg40CSC1wm9PEZKlXta9FSriltq6DNVUcB4hr6yP0HtfbVSqCN3h0F9wwnFkPDKChyphenhyphenqIlcMhp6ztGJ0RE87YCrekCttsYhPvTNyDOuRPO4pUw4PkLxaEHCHfIY3rj3w02Rl0Nn6OnbyqjqJ7K/s1106/JE%20Xiaguan%20comparison.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjtxhBKtPtGb30kLx_sfI_Xnsur1g1sEGboyS70MkxEhFBWg40CSC1wm9PEZKlXta9FSriltq6DNVUcB4hr6yP0HtfbVSqCN3h0F9wwnFkPDKChyphenhyphenqIlcMhp6ztGJ0RE87YCrekCttsYhPvTNyDOuRPO4pUw4PkLxaEHCHfIY3rj3w02Rl0Nn6OnbyqjqJ7K/w640-h480/JE%20Xiaguan%20comparison.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>2012 left, in all photos, not that these look so different</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><b><br /></b></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg8aqWB266Tma62K2wDtAE-XP3mD7oh4EfkALLjBPJQOiF4y8Cx8DYaiuMuW3Z7UXHn0oYOczbu1l5ok1zlraQAsmehoMf4_6CZ14SfAT-4Z3USDSWglE3dJEiqNaUS4YJKJvd2rKcsW8GTkpz2ABA45F3wo0wPmv3GZi68Ucri5ssxm4_3seUL8-WrqSM8/s1031/JE%20X%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1031" height="516" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg8aqWB266Tma62K2wDtAE-XP3mD7oh4EfkALLjBPJQOiF4y8Cx8DYaiuMuW3Z7UXHn0oYOczbu1l5ok1zlraQAsmehoMf4_6CZ14SfAT-4Z3USDSWglE3dJEiqNaUS4YJKJvd2rKcsW8GTkpz2ABA45F3wo0wPmv3GZi68Ucri5ssxm4_3seUL8-WrqSM8/w640-h516/JE%20X%201.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p></p><p><br /></p><p><b>2012: </b> it's good, but there's still quite a bit of green wood range bite to it, leaning towards leather, with warmer tones included, but mainly green wood. I brewed these for awhile to skip the part about waiting for them to become wetted (on towards 30 seconds), and I'm paying the price for that. This will drink more normally infused for 10 to 15 seconds; I'll skip more description until next round.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2006: </b> interesting! It has a lot more depth to it, warmer tones, a brandy-like or aged leather sort of range flavor. Is this really ready, fermented enough that it would be a standard practice to drink it at this time? Yes and no. 17 years is getting there but for a lot of people they would want almost any Xiaguan tuo to be pretty far along the line for aging and fermentation level. But this spent most of that time in Bangkok, so it's more like a 20+ year old version stored anywhere else. </p><p>I think as rounds continue I'll say more about musty notes coming and going from that wet storage input, but brewed a little too strong it's hard to be clear on that. It definitely also has a cement block character, which I guess isn't too bad, but it's not really positive. It's a little challenging; let's see how a lighter infusion works out. That's after drinking a lot of water to clear the effect of these; it would've been prudent to discard the last half of each infusion to enable getting through an extra round or two later on but I didn't, since I'm not so into wasting tea.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjMUFY2-7_-nb0a1SStyB1-8StDEZnqg6ZcHrXrnWLOwZf9G4DUJxsCcO0nlZkGFF7Xu92NvPS6dVvsAvW3s1rguobHK60yeedai-4pnkeDLHXGN5DluoLNm6O4AlhuWTiM0-58CRgkB_TxVM7G2MZs49YUdphutOiBoLsoGWZo8mkxi449Zp2qsKqPPaRC/s1106/JE%20X%202.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjMUFY2-7_-nb0a1SStyB1-8StDEZnqg6ZcHrXrnWLOwZf9G4DUJxsCcO0nlZkGFF7Xu92NvPS6dVvsAvW3s1rguobHK60yeedai-4pnkeDLHXGN5DluoLNm6O4AlhuWTiM0-58CRgkB_TxVM7G2MZs49YUdphutOiBoLsoGWZo8mkxi449Zp2qsKqPPaRC/w640-h480/JE%20X%202.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><b>2012, second infusion:</b> a coffee note stands out in this; that's odd. These were brewed pretty fast, in the 10 second range, but they're still too strong. A couple of flash infusions should work well until they moderate intensity some. Backing off a high proportion would've made sense. I actually like this, but it is challenging. It tastes a bit like horse saddle, with so much mineral that it seems to even include salt. It's clean enough that I think this has great aging potential, that none of these flavors seem to represent flaws. </p><p>I really don't like the heavy mushroom effect in some Xiaguan tuos, and smoke seems to be a component that should fade, but some seem to include what comes across as a natural flavor towards smoke range, and maybe that doesn't fade as much. Some Xiaguan mini iron cakes I have, from around this time / age, include more dried fruit range, and are even cleaner and sweeter than this. This is fine though, especially to age, but I might drink this from time to time just to have this range of experience, even though it is a little harsh. I already own a few of these, and just bought two more.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2006: </b> this is more a balance one would look for, much smoother, with more depth, and less harsh edges. It still has them, just less of them. There is a storage related flavor--or what I take to be storage related--that's not ideal, a sort of basement range smell / taste. That's normal for teas stored in Bangkok, in very closed environments (or maybe particular to Jip Eu's storage, but I take it to relate to putting any tea anywhere in a hot and humid and tightly enclosed space for many years). That will fade over months and years, per my prior experiences, maybe not really mostly dropping out until 1 1/2 to 2 years, if it has limited air exposure. </p><p>It's interesting that I contradict myself, in relation to what I just wrote in an intro while editing. That musty edge will be quite faded in about 3 months but it could be very hard to detect, so effectively gone, in more than a year.</p><p>By limited air exposure I mean that I store my teas getting too much air exposure, typically in ziplock or multi-layer bags inside a plastic storage container, but I open and close that regularly to get tea out. I use 3 of them, one for samples and what I'm drinking straight through, so I don't open the others every day, and one for longer storage I open much less often. To me that's still pushing it on the "extra air contact" side; they're all opened all the time. These I won't put in a ziplock bag; the cardboard case and paper wrapper will be enough containment.</p><p>There's a hint of sourness in this too; that's odd. I guess damp storage could lead there, especially related to oolongs that aren't sealed well, but it doesn't tend to come up in sheng much. I'll try to see how much remains next round, and do more with comparing flavors between each. After drinking more water, again; these are intense enough that drinking them with food might make sense, having something like a butter cookie to help moderate the experience.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2012, third infusion: </b> that's better, brewed lighter and softened a bit by early rounds development, but it's still really intense. The tones are generally warm; this has progressed a lot for fermentation transition, since I started drinking tuos from this batch a half a dozen or so years ago. A good bit of green wood remains but warmer tones are on equal footing with that now, towards leather, or well-aged wood. Mineral base is really strong, again more in a warm range than lighter, which wouldn't have been true a few years ago. </p><p>Mouthfeel / astringency level is a little challenging; this is not smooth and mellow. It's not like a Dayi cake in it's first half dozen years of life, before edgy and sharper / greener range transitions to warmer tones, and astringency is really rough, but in its own different way it hits as hard as a six year old 7542 cake. It's a Xiaguan tuo; it's not messing around related to intensity.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2006: </b> maybe the first round that's conventionally drinkable, among all of them, with that last one of this version borderline. A brandy-like character is developing; I bet that will pick up over the next 10 years, and that this will be fantastic as a 27 year old tea. And only maturing that fast due to rushed wet storage fermentation rate. Both that sourness and the basement / cement block range have mostly dropped out, just like that. Early rounds tend to have that effect with some challenging versions of sheng, that rough edges can sort of burn off fast. Those things are still shaping its character, but in a much more subtle, secondary effect way. Now a rich and full feel also includes a decent amount of dryness, which is hard to place. It's almost like the odd mouthfeel reaction from taking an aspirin.</p><p>Which reminds me, I've made it almost through three rounds without mentioning bitterness. These are bitter; no doubt about that. In a sense that goes without saying, as the assumed base context. But they're not really bitter at all compared to all that young sheng I've been drinking, so it seems quite moderate to me. It's not moderate at all, in a more balanced and objective sense; it's still a significant part of the experience. It just seems mild to me related to a conditioning bias, to normal younger sheng.</p><p>It's going to be hard to get these to compare well as set of two flavor lists, one natural approach. Overall effect is really dominant, how that intense feel comes across, base mineral tone shifting context, how flavors impact experiences like bitterness and sweetness (there is sweetness to comment on, I just haven't). If a dominant flavor reminds me of brown sugar, for example, then talking about sweetness makes sense, and if one seems to resemble aged leather, or cement block, discussing mineral tones or seemingly related feel might tie in more. Bitterness and astringency might connect with green wood flavor tone, and so on.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjVyJXIJE6jtC8C-AzlEocmOt95xOyzEJKmKhSLQ5F7o0t6y5wV5La2_oJ_TtVlidPCY2kf0LQbJl6lxLKKZznC8mE0zBhpwzhTDt7nnRencUtZm8ffDPgYdeKT2tgGEaxAPaXMNS0gEG5wggcUp3XwvcHHWZjQ18apDGnZqVICJ7oDo8zXhl-O5BH7CEop/s1106/JE%20X%204.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjVyJXIJE6jtC8C-AzlEocmOt95xOyzEJKmKhSLQ5F7o0t6y5wV5La2_oJ_TtVlidPCY2kf0LQbJl6lxLKKZznC8mE0zBhpwzhTDt7nnRencUtZm8ffDPgYdeKT2tgGEaxAPaXMNS0gEG5wggcUp3XwvcHHWZjQ18apDGnZqVICJ7oDo8zXhl-O5BH7CEop/w640-h480/JE%20X%204.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><p><b>2012 fourth infusion:</b> this round's infusion looking a little darker than the other's brings to mind a question: why does this seem to be the same age, or even older, related to leaf color and brewed leaf appearance? Just not flavor and feel character; that's not as progressed. I'm not sure. These two cups are not the exact same shape, and this one is taller and narrower, and it might only be that. I divided my cup collection between here and Honolulu and I tend to use these two different shape cups together, so there is one of each mixed sets in both countries. Maybe there's something else I'm missing going on.</p><p>This is finally on the light side, for infusion strength (as very powerful sheng goes; an oolong drinker might spit this back out). Let's do a flavor list: some green wood, integrated with the rest; warm tones resembling leather, but a little towards very aged wood; warm mineral base; bitterness; sweetness, not so pronounced but it balances the rest. From there alternate interpretations of all of that range is possible. Maybe those warm tones really include fallen autumn leaf. The bitterness and mineral include a bit of a chalky nature, along with warmer range, which is more like artesian well. An alternate interpretation cutting across these ranges could see this as tasting like copper, like sucking a penny. Altogether it's interesting and complex, but a few more years of aging wouldn't hurt, mellowing character and deepening flavors.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2006: </b> I keep refilling water to clear my palate, now in between teas in addition to rounds. I'm going to be hydrated after this. People speak of how they like the experience of flavor and feel building as they progress through rounds. They're talking about not drinking the water, and letting a milder character tea experience build up over time. Intensity is an issue here, a concern, not something to be appreciated and embraced. If this was a 17 year old, wet-stored, standard Yiwu version I'd be trying to get it to extend intensity as much as possible. Here I'm brewing it light and still working through the intensity.</p><p>This is finally on the too-light side, four infusions in, using near flash brewing. I can finally brew these for over 10 seconds, maybe around 15, and experience them without intensity issues. I'll do this version's flavor list next round, since it's going to work better at normal intensity. Actually you can often split apart flavors better when a tea is brewed wispy light (this isn't that, but it's light), but I'm not in the habit of experiencing tea that way, so for me it's not ideal.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgEiAXVO89xcrf044irrhiZ7UjnzROPVymntrLqFR86yoAMCJvWNG7WDl3kdO5ROzjXP5MJqBRsLTv0oomHfjWXZ2FVJDNj9kiExPD2TuV43pbnLHG5zW5TP00a-XraMji7cFKcHFCoSQ3VPTpbg6lwYszlO306NABCDEG7CxbEWvkjkOAYIkXumuLa457o/s1106/JE%20X%205.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgEiAXVO89xcrf044irrhiZ7UjnzROPVymntrLqFR86yoAMCJvWNG7WDl3kdO5ROzjXP5MJqBRsLTv0oomHfjWXZ2FVJDNj9kiExPD2TuV43pbnLHG5zW5TP00a-XraMji7cFKcHFCoSQ3VPTpbg6lwYszlO306NABCDEG7CxbEWvkjkOAYIkXumuLa457o/w640-h480/JE%20X%205.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>probably enough of the nearly identical photos</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p><b>2012, fifth infusion: </b>maybe I'll take a break after this; powering through 10 cups of these teas is a lot. Where some teas would be tapering off after this point I think these are just finally reaching their main character range.</p><p>A touch of sourness picks up in this; brewing it slightly stronger shifts the aspects range. Green wood stands out more brewed a little stronger. It's hard to describe what I would mean by calling this still clean in effect. It could have a chalkier, dryer feel, or off flavor range (which I guess that touch of sourness is an example of, but I mean as a dominant aspect). Sweetness is good in this, and bitterness level is where it should be; it all balances as it should for a sheng of this type, and Xiaguan character, at this age level / fermentation level. Some Xiaguan versions aren't like that, not that I'm an expert in that scope. I have another example in between these age ranges that I could've compared these to that's just not very good, so I left it out. No way I'd try drinking three Xiaguan tuocha versions at the same time anyway.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2006</b>: nice! Relatively speaking, if you like the type range. Onto that flavor list: a brandy-like effect stands out, tying to warm and rich flavor tones, to tree bark or spice range. It has an almost medicinal quality to it, connecting with a root-spice range that reminds you of a Chinatown herbal medicine shop. I think most people would cite camphor as a main aspect, and that does fit. The feel is interesting, rich and full, a bit smooth, but with some residual dryness. I get the sense that at 17 years old this still needs another half dozen years to even get into that final aged range, and maybe a decade to enter a more optimum range. So the other might need 15 more years? These teas do lend themselves to an aging long game.</p><p>That flavor list derailed, let's keep going: leather joins the brandy, tree bark, spice and camphor. Sweet and rich tones might include dried fruit, along the lines of tamarind, but not that, maybe more like dried longan, but not as catchy and pleasant as dried longan, as a secondary input. Bitterness is quite moderate, but included, and sweetness does couple with the range more at this stage. Sourness is almost entirely gone in this round, hard to make out. Then for any of that range alternative interpretations might work, and someone could really see leather or autumn leaf as a part I'm not describing as that.</p><p>Off to take a break. Maybe one more round in a half an hour will turn up different final thoughts. These teas are only halfway through an infusion cycle, but brewing 15 grams of Xiaguan sheng at one time is just a bad idea. I should be more flexible about shifting brewing approach, and drop the proportion when it makes sense to.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2012, sixth infusion: </b> not bad at all; as good as it's been. The warm tones I've been describing ramp up while the green wood settles to a lower input level. It balances better.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>2006: </b> this too; the slight mustiness / sourness is still present but it fades, and that brandy or cognac note shines through more. It tastes cleaner. I'll go one more round even though I expect to just repeat these results.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimaHbMAKh3eV_cLbTWLGz_Ge-pFj7f90ogkWpI8rHug8x8KwSlaVYK_2jwfUcV-W7rXl3FsiFWHg49jHnn28bxqa-AHySebmyX4uJS29p_Vre7EwUvDo-GRy8vWGOuAAo6HCV4Mh_GUAsl-mQi1XyTRQtud2WEIjAQxmM8q1xUYjcoiYyY2wCCJRKXIcfZ/s1532/JE%20X%20leaves.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="741" data-original-width="1532" height="310" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimaHbMAKh3eV_cLbTWLGz_Ge-pFj7f90ogkWpI8rHug8x8KwSlaVYK_2jwfUcV-W7rXl3FsiFWHg49jHnn28bxqa-AHySebmyX4uJS29p_Vre7EwUvDo-GRy8vWGOuAAo6HCV4Mh_GUAsl-mQi1XyTRQtud2WEIjAQxmM8q1xUYjcoiYyY2wCCJRKXIcfZ/w640-h310/JE%20X%20leaves.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>the darkening from aging is apparent</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><b>2012, seventh infusion:</b> again the best this has been. It should have a few more solid rounds before it tapers off much at all. This isn't the kind of tea that is suitable for comparison tasting; it's too strong for that, and the infusion cycle is such that the first half dozen rounds are it just settling out a bit. The mineral depth, warmth, and flavor range is much improved, and overall balance. This seems to include a bit more toffee sweetness than it had in the earlier stages. </p><p>It's still hard to describe though; lighter and darker wood, spice, leather, and dried fruit tones mix, maybe including camphor, in ways that different people would interpret differently. Using slightly different water temperature or different mineral profile water would probably change results more than for most teas, because it's complex and prone to a lot of transition across rounds. </p><p><br /></p><p><b>2006:</b> an aged effect picks up in this, an old book or furniture flavor. That's odd, isn't it, that the general effect wasn't as noticeable for so many earlier rounds? An effect I was describing as related to brandy or cognac seemed to transition to that. It's tempting to say that it's because it's cleaner in character now, but that's sort of it but really not. Seemingly the earlier "cement block / basement" range also changed to that, with that camphor / cognac range shifting more to aromatic wood preservative oil range, something like a linseed oil, I guess, or whatever is going on with really old furniture preservatives. I suppose it's better, for sourness and slight dry feel dropping out, but to me it's more just different. It's interesting.</p><p>There would be more such transitions to follow, over the next half a dozen rounds. But my patience for taking notes is worn out, so I'll skip that.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Conclusions:</h3><p><br /></p><p>Kind of what I expected, I guess. I had tried that 2006 version within the last week, so it was just about focusing in more, and experiencing more rounds. I'm not at all surprised that an 11 year old version seems quite young yet; I try that tea from time to time, when I feel like having something challenging.</p><p>I guess I'll put them both away and try the 2012 version a couple times a year for that purpose, and then mention here how they've changed in another 3 or 4 years, if I'm still writing this. I think that older version will be so nice in another 5 or 6 years, or given how this process goes maybe 10.</p><p><br /></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgMOyq6bkjUW6OlKsGnVgcHY0sq14ckGF-OWcsYtWykBOYNahrBsYGYXZ4eEwEJX1d-1SCfWPP0hn6yEg5YdhTTV6l4HuCatnCdikY01kCiJxy1V1RIuKvfWtZHfITju52SjruoKs6aD_I0y_WsY1xeZs3m_TZkWVySHlK8XcfkcVGlySifgsKFLLBN-0cG" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgMOyq6bkjUW6OlKsGnVgcHY0sq14ckGF-OWcsYtWykBOYNahrBsYGYXZ4eEwEJX1d-1SCfWPP0hn6yEg5YdhTTV6l4HuCatnCdikY01kCiJxy1V1RIuKvfWtZHfITju52SjruoKs6aD_I0y_WsY1xeZs3m_TZkWVySHlK8XcfkcVGlySifgsKFLLBN-0cG=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>Happy, my favorite local shop cat, has edible plants to snack on, maybe a type of bamboo</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-58013762671300933492023-11-12T05:44:00.000-08:002023-11-12T06:02:51.494-08:00Roasted papaya seeds as a coffee substitute, with monk fruit seeds<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiFxhchLoeOwSzqWqOls_Md7CPlyFY7z7xzUWlGkmZAkuZH2fBjvlBRb7c7b1SthmP4K0i5BOCmWOdMiQdDFWQW88bRL7keHK67lO1POUPywGN-hwklhRxPzyUJxZbFVIwRrIQr5ssk5nBoT5dI2R7UebdDcw_edouhyphenhyphenm2A_U9CnD0HpsG6A_2SuoOyEOYo/s896/ground%20papaya%20seeds%20IMG_20231111_212938.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="896" height="592" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiFxhchLoeOwSzqWqOls_Md7CPlyFY7z7xzUWlGkmZAkuZH2fBjvlBRb7c7b1SthmP4K0i5BOCmWOdMiQdDFWQW88bRL7keHK67lO1POUPywGN-hwklhRxPzyUJxZbFVIwRrIQr5ssk5nBoT5dI2R7UebdDcw_edouhyphenhyphenm2A_U9CnD0HpsG6A_2SuoOyEOYo/w640-h592/ground%20papaya%20seeds%20IMG_20231111_212938.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>Oddly I wasn't trying to see if roasted papaya seeds might work as a coffee substitute, and I certainly wasn't focusing on any specific health claim benefits. It came up that the seeds might be healthy, so I prepared them in an arbitrary way, and it was amazing how similar they are to coffee. You can skip ahead to that part in a "review" section, or hear about the background, and another tisane I prepaired them with, monk-fruit seeds. It's more or less some sort of super-food input too, it turns out; strange.</p><p> </p><p>This all started with seeing a gag video of a woman eating a papaya, consuming the seeds instead of the fruit. Several comments said that you really should eat them, that they're healthy, especially related to clearing out internal parasites. So I dried them the next time I bought a papaya, a couple days later. That cost me less than $2 for a huge, almost ripe one; Thailand is an absolute paradise for tropical fruit.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgvmpl06BDMOsDdkEemDALU4p5H9KKaSUdgpCZHeuMqGSs6qAv-mt9AWNUKAQg8VJMEyUtcKS76Wl1wRFv917HgsUv2wqXO06foEe3OWCqtQsoB2bnn8G-UHrXQwY1fMYR-kHJNGQTTBiJml4vSxipzvmo-yy-sVM7kC6ynKLHCR-0LCL-J6nd6ouYXQNez/s1000/papaya%20seeds.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="727" data-original-width="1000" height="466" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgvmpl06BDMOsDdkEemDALU4p5H9KKaSUdgpCZHeuMqGSs6qAv-mt9AWNUKAQg8VJMEyUtcKS76Wl1wRFv917HgsUv2wqXO06foEe3OWCqtQsoB2bnn8G-UHrXQwY1fMYR-kHJNGQTTBiJml4vSxipzvmo-yy-sVM7kC6ynKLHCR-0LCL-J6nd6ouYXQNez/w640-h466/papaya%20seeds.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p>I warmed them in a toaster oven for 20 minutes and they didn't fully dry, so I gave them another 20 minutes at 160 C. That seemed to roast them a little, going beyond drying them, which didn't seem like a concern, or maybe even a positive input. </p><p>I then crushed them in a mortar and pestle device and brewed them along with a sweet Chinese herb my favorite shop owners gave me last week (seeds of a monk fruit, it turns out). It's a little too sweet and a bit one-dimensional on its own, so it seemed perfect for combining with this, since surely dried papaya seeds aren't very sweet (probably; I guess I still don't know that for sure).</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitcCDRSZ0UsQHTv7QSroBDMEVc-xgsnfpsdU5sx_hUezE4hXFfi03ATrrsmRhp6yBiJWBXENXWNDbrA6h-EqrRmw40Ef3VboSvcDWvFqFB7fiXsU7G3I52VerBH7eLVwh-b_qMNtc4FT_BxcOcRKjzURe0wVobgXJ3nB4Dx-zwDsjC3mkbtVe6qdzdu5WX/s1106/IMG_20231111_213403.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitcCDRSZ0UsQHTv7QSroBDMEVc-xgsnfpsdU5sx_hUezE4hXFfi03ATrrsmRhp6yBiJWBXENXWNDbrA6h-EqrRmw40Ef3VboSvcDWvFqFB7fiXsU7G3I52VerBH7eLVwh-b_qMNtc4FT_BxcOcRKjzURe0wVobgXJ3nB4Dx-zwDsjC3mkbtVe6qdzdu5WX/w640-h480/IMG_20231111_213403.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><div><br /></div><br /><p>Let's check on <a href="https://www.medicinenet.com/what_does_monk_fruit_do_to_your_body/article.htm">monk fruit background and health benefits</a> and then set that aside:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Monk fruit is known for its delicious, sweet taste that comes from natural antioxidants such as flavonoids and mogrosides. It is currently gaining popularity as a natural, low-calorie sweetener.</b></p><p><b>Monk fruit extract has been used in traditional medicine for centuries due to the following potential health benefits:</b></p><p><b>Prevents oxidative damage</b></p><p><b>Studies in rats and mice have shown that monk fruit antioxidants have protective effects...</b></p><p><b>Research suggests that flavonoids and mogrosides in monk fruit can reduce blood sugar levels. According to a study, monk fruit extract can reduce inflammation, repair damaged cells in the pancreas, and relieve symptoms in mice with diabetes...</b></p><p><b>Research shows that eating mogrosides helps suppress fat and cholesterol levels and reduce body weight in mice with obesity...</b></p><p><b>Monk fruit polysaccharides can increase the activity and function of immune system organs like the thymus and spleen in mice... </b></p><p><b>Monk fruit can protect the liver and even repair liver damage....</b></p><p><br /></p><p>That shop owner (Kittichai of Jip Eu) said that it helps with a fever, that you can take it to help your immune system when you are sick. I got the impression that he also meant that it reduces internal heat in the Traditional Chinese Medicine sense, the heat / cold / wind / qi kind of theme, which I know nothing about. </p><p>It's definitely really sweet, and it has a more pleasant flavor than stevia, which has more of an aftertaste.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Review:</h3><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEifGfhvpnep51zc1-xIoDuEND5wJ6EusetOh0BfeLRkPJ6iYpsZ1_dBDY-79WckmsS0PjYMdx-CFkDkUkh04nh48DGyWGVGETjH4uHLSa73gzM0BFhyphenhyphennjLeukI_TsC9k3FIySYDxpChpbYrSX3FfqwIn78o7qfDSyihbZrXHwtcph52isqHdoQFVbiZqHHi/s854/papaya%20seed%20tisane%20IMG_20231111_214834.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="854" height="622" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEifGfhvpnep51zc1-xIoDuEND5wJ6EusetOh0BfeLRkPJ6iYpsZ1_dBDY-79WckmsS0PjYMdx-CFkDkUkh04nh48DGyWGVGETjH4uHLSa73gzM0BFhyphenhyphennjLeukI_TsC9k3FIySYDxpChpbYrSX3FfqwIn78o7qfDSyihbZrXHwtcph52isqHdoQFVbiZqHHi/w640-h622/papaya%20seed%20tisane%20IMG_20231111_214834.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>it's oily</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p>This is really good. I really didn't expect this to be good; that wasn't in the range of what I expected as a possible outcome. It tastes like coffee; this could be coffee. Then there's an herbal edge to it's that's not coffee, so I suppose it could be coffee flavored in some way, like with one of those flavored creamers. Of course I can't separate the input of the monk fruit, but from having that alone earlier it adds a relatively neutral and intense sweetness. </p><p>The flavor list: coffee, mild bitterness, oily / creamy feel (ok, that's not a flavor), sweetness (a little like stevia, but not as aggressive, but with a similar but lighter aftertaste). There's also an odd flavor resembling root spice, like root beer, so sassafras root. A rich, warm dried fruit tone resembles tamarind; that might be partly from the monk fruit, and I just don't remember it tasting like that, since maybe the sweetness overpowered the flavor trying it alone.</p><p>The oily feel is odd; that's pleasant, in this context, but paired with other flavors it could be really off-putting. It's just like how gas station coffee feels when you add artificial creamer to it; it's thicker and creamier than cream causes. There is literally an oil coating on the top of this so that's no wonder. They're seeds; they can contain as much oil as they happen to.</p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjQiGMHivKn4gIXFWMoVqy2-AI9aa4jqdmKziJ6B3fbion2kvy4TgUVqNVwaL-FJKG6Ps1BxLq4kJ8lr4-jTCM75jhc8upGt6dQQuXjUQqnG8l5mMzBpDP22Ir60plOajTolJGbVpLfzH8MVc__c-L69sLxqDlOYTOWJ57esh__Ldhd0w3N7QPR5bOVlFQ6/s906/papaya%20and%20monkfruit%20tisane%20IMG_20231111_214849.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="906" height="586" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjQiGMHivKn4gIXFWMoVqy2-AI9aa4jqdmKziJ6B3fbion2kvy4TgUVqNVwaL-FJKG6Ps1BxLq4kJ8lr4-jTCM75jhc8upGt6dQQuXjUQqnG8l5mMzBpDP22Ir60plOajTolJGbVpLfzH8MVc__c-L69sLxqDlOYTOWJ57esh__Ldhd0w3N7QPR5bOVlFQ6/w640-h586/papaya%20and%20monkfruit%20tisane%20IMG_20231111_214849.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>for once I Western-style brewed something, and used a strainer</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p><b>Second infusion: </b> like the first round, but much thinner. The sweetness of that herb is even more pronounced, because those just keep brewing, but the papaya seed is surely done now. It's even closer to gas station coffee now.</p><p>I don't mean that as a criticism. For older people who were there in the 20th century gas station coffee was a respectable thing. I would add for younger people that it's like grocery store tin coffee but I bet that's not going to help. Like McDonald's coffee, or Tim Horton's? Just kidding; I only eat the doughnuts there, and I don't know what it's like. Their maple cream-filled doughnuts are so good though.</p><p><br /></p><p>I bet if you bumped this roast level just a little it could seem like French roast. This is still medium roast level, and since there is no "light" that means light (outside the coffee world; they probably have it). Then with actual cream and sugar it might seem even more like coffee, almost exactly like it.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Background on papaya seeds as coffee replacement, health benefits</h3><p><br /></p><p>I Google searched use of papaya seeds as a coffee replacement, and it doesn't seem like a common theme, but it did turn up. This wasn't what I expected: <a href="https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/515/1/012098/pdf">The Potency of Carica papaya L. Seeds Powderas Anti- Obesity ‘Coffee’ Drinks</a></p><p>Other formal and informal sources aren't making and reviewing this health claim, or even mentioning this subject. Here is their conclusion:</p><p><br /></p><p><b>Based on the above explanation, it can be concluded that 25.1 grams of papaya seed powder can be obtained from 250.0 grams of wet papaya seeds. Most respondents like the texture, color, aroma, and taste of papaya seeds ‘coffee’. The pancreatic lipase inhibition power of 1.42 gram of papaya seed powder is equivalent to 1 tablet (120.0 mg) of Orlistat. Therefore, using papaya seed powder as antiobesity ‘coffee’ drink is reasonable.</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Reasonable? The obvious question is "what is a lipase inhibitor?" Then next one might wonder if these results are reliable, and if these papaya seeds really function as that as claimed (supported by their actual research study, so maybe). But let's start with what they are claiming.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlistat">Wikipedia article on Orlistat:</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Orlistat, sold under the brand name Xenical among others, is a medication used to treat obesity. Its primary function is preventing the absorption of fats from the human diet by acting as a lipase inhibitor, thereby reducing caloric intake. It is intended for use in conjunction with a healthcare provider-supervised reduced-calorie diet.[4]...</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Sure, but again what even is a lipase inhibitor?</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreatic_lipase_family#Human_pancreatic_lipase">Human pancreatic lipase</a></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Pancreatic lipase, also known as pancreatic triacylglycerol lipase or steapsin, is an enzyme secreted from the pancreas. As the primary lipase enzyme that hydrolyzes (breaks down) dietary fat molecules in the human digestive system, it is one of the main digestive enzymes, converting triglyceride substrates like 1 found in ingested oils to monoglycerides 3 and free fatty acids 2a and 2b.[5]</b></p><p><br /></p><p>So it stops you from digesting some of the fat that you eat. And this is why the Wikipedia article on Orlistat mentions that a lipase inhibitor can cause your stool (your poop) to seem oily and have a loose texture. A little of that would go a long way.</p><p>It's impossible to estimate my dosage from that. This might've been about 5 grams (could be 7), and they said that 10 grams makes 1 gram of powder, and you should take 1.4. So I'm at one third to half of a normal dose, from the seeds from one large papaya? I'll add how that went in terms of digestion impact tomorrow. [later edit: noticeable, and like Wikipedia described, but not problematic].</p><p><br /></p><p>Reading around these sources they say that it works (lipase inhibitors, not papaya seeds). I don't want anything adjusting my digestive system, even though I did gain one kg the last time I was weighed (up to 75; I might fast for a week instead of 5 days next time, to get that kg back off).</p><p>The standard health-page input is that it's good for supplementation and treating all sorts of things, including bacterial infections, fungal infections, and parasites. Who knows; maybe.</p><p>It's good though, pleasant to drink. I'll make this again the next time I buy a papaya, since the trees in our yard don't seem to be on that page of offering one just now. </p><p><br /></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhtdUS4PqqqDW0ta5nb5QHh_jPeL0DGd_Mwys36mQkU828pfL6916-5yWU34ZR0QZDCYhZQVZK9-y8zngRNsZ31VGRjsHB7JZur3wYPp7BWmENJ3B7RVmRP6LVz_pYfgjuvG04umgdlgvz0XtgLTi-mr9wcXS55obk9FxYljhcRxQ_TF0AP6WcEKMmKuI4U/s1106/IMG_20230921_131549.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="830" data-original-width="1106" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhtdUS4PqqqDW0ta5nb5QHh_jPeL0DGd_Mwys36mQkU828pfL6916-5yWU34ZR0QZDCYhZQVZK9-y8zngRNsZ31VGRjsHB7JZur3wYPp7BWmENJ3B7RVmRP6LVz_pYfgjuvG04umgdlgvz0XtgLTi-mr9wcXS55obk9FxYljhcRxQ_TF0AP6WcEKMmKuI4U/w640-h480/IMG_20230921_131549.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>that's 4 of them, but the middle one has died since</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p>Thinking back this may be the closest I've come to drinking coffee this year. That's crazy! In the past I would sometimes drink it at work, but I barely go to work in the office now, one day a week, unless I'm out of the country working remotely. I'm in the habit of drinking tea-bag tea there now, since I never took tea and an infuser to that new office site. Then I would drink coffee at hotel breakfasts when we travel in Thailand, but we last traveled in Thailand in Dec-Jan, the holiday break. </p><p>I guess I'm not much of a conventional American now. At least I've been in a cycle of eating hamburgers recently, but still made out of ground pork, still following the norm that Thais don't eat beef, even though I'm living alone. At least I grill sometimes?</p><p><br /></p><p>I'm shocked that this tisane was this good, that it's far and away the best "herb tea" replacement for coffee that I've ever tried, so close to the flavor and feel of coffee. Who knows about the health claims; those don't seem to matter, unless you could arrange to drink it regularly.</p><p>It's a little odd that I experimented with <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2016/02/tisane-experiments-papaya-leaf-and.html">using papaya leaf as a tisane almost 8 years ago</a> and this theme never came up.</p><p>Anyone who eats papaya once in awhile should give this a try. Not even for the health claims, or to replace coffee, just because it's actually good.</p><p><br /></p>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5896101085985164789.post-25600920454494486282023-11-08T08:28:00.007-08:002023-11-08T19:04:24.982-08:00Steve Shafer on Vietnamese wild-origin teas<p><br /></p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><h4><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgpcfSiqIRJSLq2eezB6O1SV8-t_h7yOQpHUa2HwsXKfBTbaPHNW6Sd2LEJvQguZboalre5nqy701roeSmr9mUaU1icscAdgqOFL1osHrdvXhjcwtZFV-TamHIa5chAAIW3T2PNxWXUfIICS1zrm50UsWUknDWyCdEo-KYzp4s_Z_G--PRQJQhGMYCl0EvX" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="1440" data-original-width="1440" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgpcfSiqIRJSLq2eezB6O1SV8-t_h7yOQpHUa2HwsXKfBTbaPHNW6Sd2LEJvQguZboalre5nqy701roeSmr9mUaU1icscAdgqOFL1osHrdvXhjcwtZFV-TamHIa5chAAIW3T2PNxWXUfIICS1zrm50UsWUknDWyCdEo-KYzp4s_Z_G--PRQJQhGMYCl0EvX=w640-h640" width="640" /></a></h4></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>all photos but finished tea imaged <a href="https://www.facebook.com/steveshafer8/">credit Steve's FB page</a></h4></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br />The following is a series of questions and answers about Vietnamese teas, about variations in types, especially wild-origin sheng, and all sorts of related background issues with <a href="https://www.vietsuntea.com/">Steve Shafer of Viet Sun</a>. </p><p></p><p>For people who are touchy about how the pu'er / puerh designation is used outside of Yunnan, the regional type designation theme, I think it works here that his first reference is to "raw puerh style" tea, versus just calling it pu'er, and then he doesn't awkwardly keep repeating that long version. I tend to include a similar designation statement in every related post, and then just call it sheng afterwards; there has to be some practical work-around.</p><p><br /></p><p>Can you describe what high quality tea production looks like in Vietnam, related to the most interesting styles produced and general demand?</p><p><b>My experience is mostly with the old tree “wild-origin” type teas so I will comment mostly on that. For raw puerh style would be good raw material selection, wok processing compared to kill-green machine processing, single day sun-drying on bamboo mats compared to tarp drying, clean factory conditions. Factory design in these areas can be similar to what you would find in Yunnan and the other bordering countries.</b> </p><p><b>The most famous green tea in Vietnam is made in Thái Nguyên. Some people still use woks and make tea from older, seed-grown tea trees there.</b></p><p><b> </b></p><p><b></b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><b><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhryq6GNfssTsOiQKR4NWdff9BC5xqwgTGioDG3wB6wjD9OABtTINu_Bf9HjBPpOyK5IF1MRB55Prt77eeIlM1XwCd4lsLuDHtxEQyIDoLHSjn2j5crkoAVrcOuOy-z_ViSKOoLe0Eb54URmA2XaspCPKlDncqcamCeYvYYVFgMxvtsPmUcel3n9fJlVxaN" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="1081" data-original-width="1440" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhryq6GNfssTsOiQKR4NWdff9BC5xqwgTGioDG3wB6wjD9OABtTINu_Bf9HjBPpOyK5IF1MRB55Prt77eeIlM1XwCd4lsLuDHtxEQyIDoLHSjn2j5crkoAVrcOuOy-z_ViSKOoLe0Eb54URmA2XaspCPKlDncqcamCeYvYYVFgMxvtsPmUcel3n9fJlVxaN=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></b></div><b><br /><br /></b><p></p><p>What are your personal favorites?</p><p><b>I’m a raw puerh lover at heart so that makes up most of what I drink on a day to day basis. I’d say my favorite areas for Vietnamese raw puerh are Tủa Chùa, Sùng Đô, Háng Đồng and Lào Cai. I also really enjoy teas of all styles made from those wild purple varietal trees. They tend to be easy drinking, gentle on the body and have interesting physical and mental effects for me. </b></p><p><br /></p><p>What channels are selling the best teas in Vietnam now, which forms like dedicated website portals, Facebook groups, shops, etc.? </p><p><b>Many tea producers are on Facebook and it’s quite common for customers to contact them directly to buy tea. There are many tea shops in major cities like Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh but it seems like only a few have success selling tea in-person to customers. Many physical tea shops have an online presence through a website and/ or social media channels which is where I’d bet most of the sales are taking place for them. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>What is next for even better tea production to develop in Vietnam?</p><p><b>A major factor driving this is demand. With higher demand for these good teas, more producers will focus their efforts on making them. Knowledge will be shared and the overall average quality of tea in a given area should rise. One of the most important factors in wild-origin tea production is raw material quality. Many of these tea tree areas have unsustainable management practices and a decreasing quality of raw material. With a higher demand for quality should bring about more farmers implementing more sustainable tea area management practices. The government might eventually get involved in offering protection and implementation of these more sustainable management practices as well.</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b></b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><b><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiHT-jsxBXsTwB_FKXktAKiIhZAZ0aZ9IdSxtwTL_Lw919Z7g9whNGk2TLKjVuuJr3FXhvntFwyl1wNvLQZPh_RyJ9zMosOo_V_Hx2xDMYlcBFUMWsithP-FAN-R8JvsN2JbCcEonupfEvWEELaDK0D5OYSanJbam-PlXLSseUlOk5-CCdwkZbzfHG-R7Nz" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="811" data-original-width="1080" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiHT-jsxBXsTwB_FKXktAKiIhZAZ0aZ9IdSxtwTL_Lw919Z7g9whNGk2TLKjVuuJr3FXhvntFwyl1wNvLQZPh_RyJ9zMosOo_V_Hx2xDMYlcBFUMWsithP-FAN-R8JvsN2JbCcEonupfEvWEELaDK0D5OYSanJbam-PlXLSseUlOk5-CCdwkZbzfHG-R7Nz=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></b></div><b><br /><br /></b><p></p><p>If someone had already tried pretty good rolled oolong, fishhook style green tea, and sheng from Vietnam what would be next for them to explore? New regions, even better versions, or something else?</p><p><b>Trying teas from other terroirs in those styles you have enjoyed and from other reputable vendors could be a good next step. Some of the classics for me would be Tủa Chùa/ Sùng Đô raw puerh, Tà Xùa green, Suối Giàng silver needle white, Hoàng Su Phì black, Cao Bồ ripe puerh. Those wild purple varietal teas from Lai Châu province can also be great but try your best to buy from vendors with sustainable tea making practices. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Based on my experience lots of Vietnamese sheng is oxidized a little more than for mainstream Yunnan style, but in plenty of cases this can be exceptional, if drank as young tea. Do you feel that this impacts aging potential? Is it something that you think producers should correct for, or does it work matched with some material type, or as a local style variation?</p><p><b>Yes, that is quite common here. One of the biggest factors resulting in those higher oxidation teas is weather. The spring and autumn tea seasons are quite foggy/ rainy in many tea areas. Some teas could have been under withered and/ or have had a slow multi-day sun-drying stage. These two factors can both result in a higher oxidation and “reddened” tea. Another factor that results in those higher oxidation teas is lack of a good processing schedule. Some producers do not follow processing schedules conducive to making good tea. Some could be left too long after kill green/ rolling before drying, dried in a thick layer on nylon tarps etc… Weather is something we cannot change but having a good processing schedule is something we can! </b></p><p><b>Those unintentional higher oxidation teas are very common but there are also some pleasant intentionally oxidized teas being produced. I’ve seen producers do everything that a typical high-quality raw puerh processing schedule would include but extend the time after rolling by a few hours. I’ve also seen some people dry the leaves about halfway, keep them overnight inside the factory, and then dry them in a thicker layer the following morning. </b></p><p><b>For aging potential, I think these styles of teas are better young than aged. The oldest raw puerh in this style that I’ve tried was 5 years old and it was already almost like a black or long aged white tea. The balance of bitterness/ astringency/ sweetness was off for me but it would be interesting to see how these teas develop over longer periods of aging. These “reddened” teas could be suitable for people new to raw puerh and/or anyone looking for a more gentle, easier drinking raw puerh experience as the bitterness and astringency are reduced significantly.</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b></b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><b><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg0NRIaXVv77OdhdmB7YM3JGE1S1AV1H3Vt8bCaWHQm8xbalJJC38ESuQUbtke15y4ZLcLAt6tydT3C8aFotUqOFY51IqwB7PNXxpWIfF-CdHVwhAlc9C5hmqsO047zbTVmCziuVi044tOrrxbvXFrK9xNkQwl9_6BG9NUut43VZGK2VulDFkSr3MvaB2K1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="811" data-original-width="1080" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg0NRIaXVv77OdhdmB7YM3JGE1S1AV1H3Vt8bCaWHQm8xbalJJC38ESuQUbtke15y4ZLcLAt6tydT3C8aFotUqOFY51IqwB7PNXxpWIfF-CdHVwhAlc9C5hmqsO047zbTVmCziuVi044tOrrxbvXFrK9xNkQwl9_6BG9NUut43VZGK2VulDFkSr3MvaB2K1=w640-h480" width="640" /></a></b></div><b><br /><br /></b><p></p><p>Is development and increase in incomes in Vietnam proportional to awareness and demand expansion of better teas?</p><p><b>I think so. The economy is growing rapidly and there is a rising middle class. It seems like many people have more disposable income than before and are taking up hobbies. Healthy/ green activities are becoming more mainstream and high quality tea easily falls into that. There are new tea shops opening frequently in bigger cities like Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Are mainstream forms of better versions of teas expanding in any way? Is there anything like a Vietnamese Dayi or Xiaguan, or a comparable large high quality tea production, marketing, and sales, across any main tea type (black, green, per region, etc.)?</p><p><b>A couple of larger scale companies have been around for a while and are popular in the country. Shanam, Bash Tea, Tân Cương Xanh and Trà Việt come to mind. Shanam and Bash Tea focus on wild-origin teas, Tân Cương Xanh focus on Thái Nguyên green tea and Trà Việt on a bit of everything.</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Can you say a little about terroir differences in Vietnamese wild origin tea in relation to Laos or Yunnan tea? It’s an impossibly broad theme, and one that mixes with too many other process related factors, but an example or two of how you see it would still be interesting.</p><p><b>I haven’t been to enough places in Yunnan and Laos to give you concrete answers but generally the weather in the tea areas in Vietnam is warmer and more humid than areas in Yunnan. Many tea areas here have foggy, humid, misty weather many months out of the year. There are more plants/ mosses/ lichens growing on and around the tea trees in Vietnam compared to Yunnan. The elevations of good tea areas in Vietnam are lower on average than the ones in Yunnan. This could result in different soil compositions/ quality? But you’d have to ask someone with more experience than me about that. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Can you add a little on the difference between a general wild origin “good material” theme and final prepared tea aspects varying?</p><p><b>In raw puerh, raw material really is king. I’ve had teas made from great raw material and rough processing that still ended up being pretty great. On the other hand I’ve had tea made from average/ lower quality raw material that was processed well and resulted in just mediocre tea. The “taste of the mountain” shines through unless the processing is really off. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>I’ve tried Thai wild origin material tea that was quite good, distinctive in different ways for different versions, but one example was unusually sour. Is this familiar as a plant-type related input? Of course it could also relate to a processing flaw, but it seems like an unusual flavor range approaching sourness from some purple teas isn’t completely unrelated.</p><p><b>Sourness is a common note in many of those wild non-Sinensis varietal teas here. That sourness can manifest as an unripe fruit, tamarind like note in certain tea styles that I really enjoy if it balances well with the other flavors. I’ve also had sourness Assamica black/ white/ puerh tea but that was due to processing issues. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Can you say a little about purple plant type tea?</p><p><b>Purple tea seems to have a couple different meanings. One could be Sinensis/ Assamica tea trees that have purple leaves due to genetic defects, the other being non-Sinensis varietals. I’ve seen the occasional Assamica tree with some purple leaves. I’ve never tried a tea made exclusively from those trees and I think it would be hard to get enough raw material to make much tea at all due to the scarcity of those trees. </b></p><p><b>Vietnam has many varietals of those non-Sinensis tea trees growing at 1800-2500m+ in elevation. Many of these trees have purple/ red/ orange/ yellow-green leaves with different leaf shapes compared to the typical Assamica. All of those varietals could be lumped into the “purple tea” category. I really enjoy teas made from these types of trees as they are easy drinking (gentle, fragrant, sweet, low bitterness/ astringency) when produced as any style of tea. Many have a thick mouthfeel, lasting huigan and strong body effects for me.</b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>An Assamica based oolong I’ve tried from Viet Sun was quite pleasant. Can you add background about that tea type, if it’s prepared in a similar way as a Chinese or Taiwanese type, and how the Assamica plant type input varies?</p><p><b>Sure, that was made in Hoàng Su Phì, Hà Giang province. That area is high on fragrance and sweetness and lower on bitterness/ astringency. The processing combines elements of raw puerh, oolong and black tea processing. It undergoes a long withering, shaking, medium-oxidation, wok kill-green, rolling, sun-drying and roasting. It is a loose leaf style so would be comparable to a strip-style oolong but the raw material input makes it look more like a loose-leaf raw puerh. The tea maker who makes our tea recommends aging it for at least a year. He mentions that the aging period really helps settle it down and become more balanced. Seems like it can be difficult to make that raw material work as an oolong. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>A Western-facing outlet like Hatvala has built up better Vietnamese tea awareness over a number of years. Do you feel that Viet Sun customers are generally coming from that prior exposure, or is it more that people learn of better Vietnamese tea more than continue earlier demand for it?</p><p><b>We have a handful of customers who have tried Hatvala teas, enjoyed them and wanted to explore other options from Vietnam. Many of our customers have never heard about (or at least anything good about) Vietnamese tea but have found out about us through word of mouth or social media/ chat forums. It seems like a good percentage of our customers are Yunnan tea enthusiasts and with our catalog being “puerh” heavy, it makes sense that they might be more willing to try teas from vendors like us. </b></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p>Are you being contacted by Western (US or European) shops about them carrying Vietnamese teas, or are your customers only tea enthusiasts making direct purchases?</p><p><b>Yes, we wholesale to a handful of businesses in the US, Canada and Europe as well as International retail. </b></p><div><br /></div><h3 style="text-align: left;">Thoughts on this discussion</h3><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>Really the point here was to share Steve's input, to allow readers to access some of the types of ideas I sometimes run across in talking to vendors or producers. I wanted to add just a little on how I took these ideas though.</div><div><br /></div><div>The last two questions about development of tea awareness and demand in Vietnam related to my curiosity about trends tending to come and go in tea circles, to versions from Nepal or Georgia becoming popular, and known for quality and good character, for example. To me Vietnam is sort of a different case because plenty of range of tea has been produced there for a long time, and quality levels have certainly been mixed, but they didn't just start producing good versions recently. Maybe some are more consistent and better recently, but I've tried great Vietnamese tea versions for years, and it was always odd that the word didn't get out faster. </div><div><br /></div><div>For living in Thailand I probably shouldn't add that Vietnamese teas at the higher end have been more diverse and just better than from Thailand for years, but at least the best Thai versions are now catching up and holding their own. There were rare exceptions before, and sheng has previously been inconsistent from both countries.</div><div><br /></div><div>I was wondering to what extent that awareness and demand shift is happening now, and Steve covered a few points that relate to that. Hopefully it ramps up fast enough for Steve's business to do well, for him to keep offering interesting and pleasant teas, but maybe not fast enough to outpace production, so pricing stays as favorable as it currently is.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>Sort of related, the two versions I bought recently I love more and more as I keep drinking them (a <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2023/10/lao-cai-old-tree-black-from-vietnam-2023.html">black tea</a> and <a href="https://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2023/10/viet-sun-son-la-vietnamese-sheng.html">sheng</a>). Sometimes you can try something exceptional and it's the novelty that carries the experience, something like quality level markers showing through, and other times you can relate to more basic teas even better, because they match what you like, and the limitations mean little in relation to the positive aspects or overall impression. The best case is when good teas click for you, not necessarily those matching a standard type the best, or showing off quality through the most rare or refined aspects, but just good, pleasant versions. Those you can enjoy over and over. </div><div><br /></div><div>Dian Hong often tends to be like that for me, and to me that black tea seems related to that character range. Slightly atypical versions of sheng, related to Yunnan character range, can relate to different terroir input, or to processing variations. In some cases the balance seems off, and in others novel flavors and extra complexity really comes together. For me the Sơn La version balance really worked.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgkjql2ZyViP_NI-c0LiQvdLG6coF9ULx47aF9cAAHX8IQ30zr8F_mDzmFiAmnvBGFaWYP1PfPTfaSFD60MouiTZZr_BJdBckG1bHLKZ8LtcyTvTMJ0yaSA4TczD56Ww2tACqWaHwu_Yb5z2wbtW7SwpJqDzVEP_uyXDcvU8f_FecyfU4GRzIGx0_WYRqd7/s1058/Viet%20Sun%20Lao%20Cai%20black%20tea%20IMG_20231014_094801.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="794" data-original-width="1058" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgkjql2ZyViP_NI-c0LiQvdLG6coF9ULx47aF9cAAHX8IQ30zr8F_mDzmFiAmnvBGFaWYP1PfPTfaSFD60MouiTZZr_BJdBckG1bHLKZ8LtcyTvTMJ0yaSA4TczD56Ww2tACqWaHwu_Yb5z2wbtW7SwpJqDzVEP_uyXDcvU8f_FecyfU4GRzIGx0_WYRqd7/w640-h480/Viet%20Sun%20Lao%20Cai%20black%20tea%20IMG_20231014_094801.jpg" width="640" /></a></div><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhsEpEV6OxkFzMcR6pa-IRL0GGJJLrchWcLzdDUZm3FF9aoi0dasLWE50djfICyGUDQcEibeKgrZZrSuv9tp9UpeMLzGG-WeXuEBT2kIiDHZ4S6DdPcPgb5LBt-8McfSSnllm0udkCi1_c0vKFo-0f_1hHmhqAYLDjeAcwz-tVnqNVD2jVuArA3kOqp0Fn6/s794/Viet%20Sun%20Son%20La.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="794" data-original-width="792" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhsEpEV6OxkFzMcR6pa-IRL0GGJJLrchWcLzdDUZm3FF9aoi0dasLWE50djfICyGUDQcEibeKgrZZrSuv9tp9UpeMLzGG-WeXuEBT2kIiDHZ4S6DdPcPgb5LBt-8McfSSnllm0udkCi1_c0vKFo-0f_1hHmhqAYLDjeAcwz-tVnqNVD2jVuArA3kOqp0Fn6/w638-h640/Viet%20Sun%20Son%20La.jpg" width="638" /></a></div><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>The rest of what Steve said covers ideas that are familiar; we have discussed similar things, or they've come up talking to other friends in Vietnam. His input expressed a lot of range clearly and concisely, extending what I've heard before. The parts about concerns related to sustainability, sourness in atypical plant type versions, on purple teas, and on typical regional aspect character were particularly interesting to me. It was great that Steve was open to discussing other source options as much as he did, to help place where the whole market stands; vendors usually aren't like that.</div><div><br /></div><div>Many thanks to Steve for sharing these ideas!</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgek5jQBX9QcRSiO0anCVC8zmMClBpAo7ZZPVVvH2e3OHGaiU9xXo7EJSColMEUSG9UOKx9CqrEuel8NofvEcVAd-lhyphenhyphenODWB7fwKRP8HKbQRrBrI72cSspM3qKF5i7RG8ebbBETsetyWiFTN5Up-ff-MG-kDR4GKOibKIL1t3tnvZncujV1topPiUPKsUPr/s794/VS%20SL%202.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="794" data-original-width="596" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgek5jQBX9QcRSiO0anCVC8zmMClBpAo7ZZPVVvH2e3OHGaiU9xXo7EJSColMEUSG9UOKx9CqrEuel8NofvEcVAd-lhyphenhyphenODWB7fwKRP8HKbQRrBrI72cSspM3qKF5i7RG8ebbBETsetyWiFTN5Up-ff-MG-kDR4GKOibKIL1t3tnvZncujV1topPiUPKsUPr/w480-h640/VS%20SL%202.jpg" width="480" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><h4>this sheng brewed color matches part of the story told here</h4></td></tr></tbody></table><div><br /></div>John Bhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00485492978163517529noreply@blogger.com0