Comparing Laos and Nepal white teas

Moonlight white lower left, Laos top, Nepal tea bottom left

This tasting was about getting to a few teas I've been meaning to try for awhile.  Anna of Kinnari Teas passed on teas at the end of last year, some versions that were sold as Kinnari teas and some that she had ran across in travels in Laos.  Her teas are great.  Laos teas are great, in general.  If this government initiative to support that industry works out you'll have broader access to try some, but don't hold your breath; SE Asian government projects take time.

Another friend, Somnuc Amnousinh, passed on some Laos teas I've written about as well.  He's not a vendor, just a tea enthusiast who gets out, and related to that he shared some great versions from Laos.  This black tea version works as a good example; it's a crying shame that anyone being able to order that tea online is only a distant dream.  If it sounds too good to miss then you need to get on a plane and fly to Laos.

The third is a Nepal tea, shared by a small producer friend there, Narendra Kumar Gurung.  His teas are produced through a Highlanders Farmers Private Limited tea-coop, which I said more about in this post, sold labeled as Barbote teas.  This review of a black tea version conveys how unique and well-made those teas are, just amazing they could be that good so early in their production history.  It's not as if he is new to growing tea though, and processing very good tea is nothing new in the local Nepal industry.  "Very good" is all relative; in this case I mean in the sense of not giving up much in terms of Darjeeling quality standards, or maybe as good but just different in style.  To me that's impressive.


It is nice knowing such interesting and diverse people through exploring tea interest.  Now that I think of it I've written about all three of these people in one other post about meeting interesting tea friends, here.

I've not actually met Narendra in person yet, and there really is an extra depth to that form of experience.  But it can still be nice sharing ideas through messages, and I've tried his teas, which have all been very nice.  It's probably luck of the draw as much as anything but all of the Nepal teas I've tried, not just his, were very pleasant, distinctive, and somewhat consistent in style ranges.  I won't add more about that background, though, since there's plenty of review to get to.

One of these is a Moonlight white and two are silver tips style teas (buds-only white, not so different than silver needle, but I take that to be a more type-specific reference).  It's odd comparing diverse tea types like that, just sharing being white tea.  The plan was for the contrast to make sense, for the Moonlight White to stand out for being type-typical and nothing like the other two, and then for them to make sense related to each other, with the contrasting descriptions as a base that fills in more about character.  It sort of didn't work out like that, but that's part of it too, seeing how things go.

Review

I used about a 30 second infusion time for the first round, which would be way too long for the shengs I've been drinking more of lately, but for these they'll just be getting started infusing in that time.

Laos Moonlight White (Kinnari Tea):  the tea is great, as expected.  It leans more towards spice than I thought it would, since I was expecting more fruit, but that works too, and the fruit will probably develop more over the next two rounds.  This is warm and earthy enough that it could easily be an aged tea version, it's just not, similar in some limited ways to a well-transitioned shou mei.  It's nice, distinctive and sweet.  As near as I can tell based on drinking a light initial infusion it's well balanced.  I'll do more with an aspect list next round.

I didn't take a picture of the dry teas before reviewing them, a bit of a lapse.  As memory serves this looked similar to Oriental Beauty in color scheme as these teas go, with dark, reddish, and brown leaf colors, not limited to silver and black as is typical for Moonlight White.  I really should take another photo since I have more at home, and may edit this to include one if I end up posting it before I do. 

I didn't do much with photos at all in this tasting; I'm not sure why not, since I am in the habit.  It probably related to family-originated background noise; I can't always wait for the kids to clear out somewhere to try and write notes about teas, and it's really hard to focus with piano playing, banging around, and screaming in the background.  It's like having wild animals in the house.

the sweet little noise makers out for pizza recently

Laos silver tip (or silver needle, if you like):  this is labeled "Yanchaw W;" I don't know what that part means).  For once this silver tips version doesn't taste vaguely like straw and flowers.  A good bit of spice comes across in this tea, even more so than in the Moonlight version, which included more spice than anything else.  Strange.  If anything the proportion is slightly lower for this white and it seems more intense than the Moonlight (although without weighing the teas that's just a guess, a guess that will be more informed once I see the fully saturated leaf volume, when it will still be just a guess).

I'm wondering if this wasn't contaminated by being stored too close to something else, the taste range is so unexpected and intense.  There were tisanes in that storage box too and one in particular was aromatic, an unusual form of compressed fruit tisane bar.  I had some pu'er and other long-term stored teas well isolated in a cabinet, and other samples and in-progress versions in a moderately sealed box in that same cabinet, and miscellaneous samples and boxes piling up all over the place, and my wife collected the strays into one storage box.  It would be odd if this whole review was about flavor the tea picked up along the way, and it's as much an actual possibility as a funny thing to say at this point.  These Laos sample teas from Somnuc were stored in plastic bags similar to ziplock bags, and those are a bit permeable, not a great moderate-term storage solution, and this has been around for a few months now.


Nepal silver needle:  this is interesting, distinctive, and pleasant; not on the weak side for being an initial round.  It does taste floral and like dried hay, so it is what I expect as a default from bud-only white teas, but a touch of unique range mineral seems to give away the Nepal origin.  There's a hint of citrus in it too, a dried peel that could be tangerine versus a sweet version of orange:  that's nice.  I'll leave off the longer descriptions to do a full list for all next time.

Laos Moonlight White left, Laos white middle, Nepal tea on the right

Second infusion

Moonlight white:  fruit isn't necessarily filling in yet but a nice savory sweetness similar to sundried tomato is.  That's primary; the spice range isn't as noticeable, and really at this point it requires imagination to split out the rest further.  Free associating a little to get to that:  milder spice is present, and some degree of light floral, but a sweet version of it, something like violet, or instead like a light version of lavendar.  Fruit is closest to dried apricot; to me that part does stand out.


Laos silver needle:  I hate to say it but this does taste like the spice in a tisane blend I tried not long ago, something really novel from Moychay, a pressed fruit bar that was quite heavy on spice (listed here with a description cut short since it's sold out).  This might be a rare case of an aborted review, leaving off as a warning about combined storage, especially if one of the teas isn't well-sealed.  Using ziplock style bags can be a problem; not much of the rest of how teas are stored is as open to being affected like that.  The tea is quite nice, for what that's worth; that hint of spice works well with the rest.  If it is natural it's a unique, positive aspect of this tea.  It's probably not (more guesswork), and most likely a happy accident that the flavor cross-contamination was positive.


Nepal silver needle:  the mineral, light floral, sweetness, hint of dried citrus peel, and dried hay all works together.  It's a distinctive profile that seems familiar.  I'd probably have to brew it stronger to draw out a thicker feel but it doesn't necessarily come across as thin, I've just accustomed to sheng lately, which are even more multi-dimensional.  I will let this run over another 30 seconds to get plenty of infusion strength out of it.


Third infusion

Kinnari Moonlight White:  more of the same, mainly savory, towards sun-dried tomato, with a bit of spice under that.  Or it could seem more like autumn forest floor:  warm, sweet, and rich, clean flavored but earthy.  Using either as a main flavor-range interpretation (or more likely seeing it as covering both for range) there's a hint of spice as well, closest to cinnamon, but also not so far off nutmeg.  Reviewers with a great imagination would add a lot to that, aspects like warm floral tone or rich berry, like blackberry, maybe closer to that than apricot in this round.  I thought it might be even fruitier but at least it does get to a little of that.


Laos silver needle:  I'm dropping this out of the review process; it tastes like warm spice and fruit, way too close to that Moychay tisane pressed bar.  Now that I think of it that tisane bar would be perfect for mixing with an inexpensive white tea to convert it to a flavored version.  To some that would seem like an unnatural act, way off their own preference, and I tend to not drink teas along that line much myself.  But it seems to work in this, and it's not even brewed together, seemingly just picking up a trace of flavor transferred across two layers of packaging.


Nepal silver needle:  the mix of flavors seems to evolve to include a bit of fruit.  The light tangerine peel aspect already was that, but it seems more pronounced and complex in this round.  It's a bit non-distinct, since it is coming across along with all the rest (mineral, dried hay, etc.), and since the profile extends to light floral too.  I'll guess out a range for that fruit as dried citrus fruit itself, versus the peel, maybe closest to blood orange, quite warm and sweet.

apparently I didn't feel like taking pictures that day

Fourth infusion


This will do for a final take; it's enough tea, even though these are probably only more or less half finished.  Using the longer infusion times would limit the count, so it won't make it to over a dozen as sheng tastings have (which brews a lot of tea too).  White teas are often durable related to what can be brewed from them compared to black teas.  Oolongs are in the middle; it just depends on the type.

Moonlight white:  other than fading a little the general effect is the same.  Even that change could result from a variance in infusion time, from not keeping track.


Nepal silver needle:  still in the same range, but the balance keeps shifting.  Mineral might be stronger than the rest in this round (a flinty / limestone sort of range mineral, lighter stone), with light citrus, dried hay, and floral tone standing out, more or less in that order.  It's quite flavorful as buds-only white teas go, in a range that's pleasant.

Conclusions

I really liked all three teas.  The Moonlight wasn't what I expected but it was nice.  For amounting to a tea storage glitch the Laos white was very pleasant.  I probably never will carry through on using that tisane for making a homemade blended version, mixing it with tea, but it would be great for that, and I tend to just not think along those lines.  I did mention in writing about it elsewhere (another story I'll get to) that the fruit tisane bar might work well for adjusting the flavor of a masala chai, doing a fruit-adjusted version of spiced tea.  That I might get to; it's interesting messing around with versions of those.

The Nepal tea was better than I expected, although I probably should've expected that character.   Buds-only whites so often come across as relatively flavorless to me that I don't start with high hopes but Nepal teas are often on the intense side, and Narendra's other versions have been really pleasant.  Someone with more exposure to Nepal white teas would've done more with placing that, comparing it to other range.  In the past I've been more of a fan of the really intense bud and fine leaf Nepal white versions, which can be heavier yet on citrus fruit with a cool mineral undertone, as Narendra's version of that type was.


Many thanks again to those three friends for sharing those teas.

at a local temple with a visitor recently

probably time to get back to a haircut theme

same week, same temple (Wat Pho), different visit

a photo with my wife and a very respected local monk

Farmerleaf Spring 2018 Jingmai Tian Xiang

I recently ordered a few teas from Farmerleaf, a past favorite source for Dian Hong (Yunnan black teas), and a good producer and reseller for a range of Jing Mai sheng.  And they sell others, white teas and such.  I've been buying a few more sheng cakes to try different versions and to bridge more into experiencing how they age, trying them over time.  I've been trying a lot of samples of sheng for a couple of years but don't own that many cakes.

This review covers a version that sounded good, a "Tian Xiang" cake.  I'll cite the whole Farmerleaf description, in part to introduce the tea, and to explain why it sounded interesting:

The second edition of the 'Tian Xiang' cake is made from a selection of natural tea gardens from Jingmai Mountain. Each year, we research about the characteristics of each tea garden and some spots give teas with special traits. This cake was made from natural tea gardens located close to the ancient tea gardens and another group of gardens remotely located halfway between Mangjing and Jingmai. Because of their history and the current agricultural practices, these gardens make a tea of superior qualilty, featuring a thicker soup and more complex fragrance.

This tea was processed in a wok, in the same way as the Miyun cakes, but the raw material differs. The tea features a complex floral fragrance, with hints of tropical fruits. The soup is thicker and Huigan deeper than in the Miyun cake.

In terms of quality, this tea is a good middle ground between the basic natural tea gardens tea and the more expensive teas grown in the ancient tea gardens.


I talked to William Osmont, the Farmerleaf business owner, about the tea before buying it.  He described this as a "daily drinker" in discussion, which raises some interesting considerations.

That simple concept invokes a lot of context issues.  On the one hand it implies a tea should be inexpensive and moderate in quality, decent tea but not good enough to warrant lengthy weekend sessions focused only on the tea.  "Inexpensive" is a matter of expectation too; there is a lot of sheng out there selling for around $40 per cake and this was $79, so double that.  I've recently tried a Yunnan Sourcing "Impression" cake and Bitterleaf "Year of the Dog" cake that were blended tea versions that seem to fit that general type, and match that first lower price range.

One might wonder what William meant, and he clarified that to him it relates to a relatively inexpensive tea that is easy to brew, doesn't require too much attention, and may not be as strong in flavor or body as some other versions.  That works.


I first took him to mean that other versions, in particular older tree / gushu plant source versions, can be more intense, perhaps more refined, and can require a different kind of focus, and can bring different layers of exposure to the experience.  Tea tree age alone doesn't make a tea better; lots of processing inputs go into play, and growing conditions are a factor, and which plant type happened to stick around to get old.

As I interpret it the concept of a "daily drinker" is more about tea style than cost, although that is related too.  I'll drink different types of teas when I'm rushing through a work-day breakfast than I'll choose when I have time to spend.  It's nice to drink a well-above-average orthodox Assam on the fly, brewed as two strong infusions in two rounds in a large mug.  It doesn't work as well to drink 12 rounds of sheng quickly, but I still do sometimes.  Even if I only have even 20 minutes to brew tea with breakfast if I feel like it I'll have sheng, preparing 10 rounds really fast Gongfu style, mixing ("stacking") them as I go to moderate the temperature I drink it at.  I wouldn't do that with a better version I was trying to get a clearer read on.

Given all that it will be interesting to see what I make of the tea, so on to it.

Review

The first infusion is pleasant, on the light side still, but sweet and complex with good intensity.  I should leave off filling in the aspects-list style description until next round and limit this to a first impression effect.  It seems to work.  Bitterness won't a problem in this tea, although there is some to balance the rest.  It will be sweet, flavorful, and approachable.  A hint of smoke stands out, even though it's a trace, there is a vegetal aspect, part of the sweetness probably does relate to fruit, and mineral fills in a nice base.  It's good, of course with "good" being a bit relative.

It's funny how that general description could either be interpreted as sheng at its best or very limited quality tea, depending on how someone takes it, related to their expectations and preferences.

Of course it's a little more intense the next round; the leaves are closer to fully saturated.  Drilling further into how the aspects break down is tricky; that initial take captures a lot of what I'm still picking up.  There is a distinctive range of complex flavors that stands out, but it covers a lot of scope, even though it comes across as simple and integrated.  That can happen.  At first it comes across mostly as a floral range, since that's a default description (more or less), and general expectation.  It resembles fruit too though.  At this point a bit towards pear or white grape, so sweet and light, maybe even Asian pear (very light), but some of the warmth and depth does extend to how more typical US-grown pears are.  Mineral range supports that flavor complexity.

Sweetness could be a little more intense, but there's plenty, and the mild bitterness works well as a counter.  Feel is a bit light, and at least at this point aftertaste doesn't stand out.  There's enough of both that it doesn't come across as thin but compared to a lot of young sheng range it might be judged as such.  If I focused on that more than overall balance and effect (what I really value most about teas, in general) then it would seem more of a limitation.  The style is such that this is a drinkable young sheng, which is fine as a premise, for me.  It doesn't bode well for the tea to be as positive after more than a decade of aging, per my understanding, but it makes it stand out as pleasant now.

All this might sound familiar, about contrasting pleasant, drinkable young sheng with aging potential.  It's a recurring theme I never drop lately, and one I'll be another decade sorting out.  I just re-tried a Moychay Nannuo sheng yesterday that was one of my favorite shengs yet (with this a link to the next-year's version, 2018).  I've finished 2/3rds of a cake of the 2017 cake, in part related to checking back in on it just over a year after buying it.  It's fading; no surprise there.  Or just transitioning, to be more positive about that, but it's definitely losing flavor intensity and sweetness, and it didn't have much astringency and bitterness that could drop out to improve the experience.  It might sound like I'm saying this tea is a lot like that, and at the end I probably will, but I'll hold off on concluding that for now.

This does remind me even more of that tea on the third round; it has nice flavor intensity, sweetness, a good balance, and pronounced fruit.  It's just not overly bitter, astringent, or structured in feel (all of which works for me; it still strikes a decent balance).  I was just thinking of ordering the next years' version of that Moychay Nannuo sheng (and may still), but with this being as stylistically close, and matching in similar aspects, at least I have more to drink of something comparable.  I just doubt that this tea will serve the initial purpose of buying cakes to age well (again at the level of conclusions best reserved to the end).

Mineral makes this tea pleasant; it really helps the flavor balance.   That doesn't pair with feel-structure that tends to often couple with similar mineral range.  I'd picked up a hint of smoke early on but that's not apparent now; it already dropped out.  There's something unusual about the bitterness, which is often simple a one-dimensional, basic aspect, as sweetness sort of is, but both can vary in nature.  The mild bitterness seems to have a complexity to it.

The fruit range seems to be changing most in this round, warming a little, shifting in type.  Lots of flavor aspect interpretations might potentially apply, and since it's complex and linked to a lot of other flavors.  To me it tastes less like white grape, and like a different kind of pear, warmer so further into a ripe, sweet, rich version.  I'm not so good with pear types though; bosch comes to mind but I don't think that's it, since I think that's the one with a brownish skin that's simple in flavor but pleasant.  They're more like this Harry and David gift-delivery version, which my Mom sent me once, some really expensive but pleasantly buttery and rich flavored pears.

Or that fruit also resembles how some mangoes come across, at least warmer, richer-flavored versions.  It's a close to a move towards or into light spice range too, it seems.  It could still be interpreted as floral, and at a minimum it seems to also include that kind of range.

from one of the trees at our house, very nice versions of mangos

On the next infusion (4?) it transitions less.  Intensity picked up, but that probably relates to not paying attention to infusion time, to brewing it longer.  Feel structure is much fuller and aftertaste runs longer.  That's probably both a function of infusing this round slightly longer and a natural transition of aspects through the rounds, really gaining intensity across those ranges.  It had to be that the character actually changed because the effect is too different, especially related to a trailing sweetness aftertaste.  The feel / structure is still a bit light but the aftertaste is much more intense now.

It's interesting how variations in how it comes across at different infusion strengths might allow this tea to suite different preference for sheng style.  If someone liked the flavor-based intensity, sweetness, and approachable nature brewing it very lightly enhances all that.  Letting it run a little longer ramps up thickness and aftertaste effect.  Lighter would be better for me; I can do without the rest as being pronounced, and brewing teas lightly allows you to pick up the finer aspects better, or so it seems to me.

More of the same on the next round; it seems like characteristic transitions across rounds won't be the main story related to this tea, even though it has changed in a couple of notable ways.  Bitterness is a little stronger this round, but it still balances well.  Now it's where a lot of younger sheng more typically are for how sweetness and bitterness offset each other, just still in the lower-end range for level of bitterness, but that much closer to moderate.  Spice range never did develop into a notable aspect, or at least not yet.

This next infusion was on the fast side, back to just under 10 seconds, to gauge how much varying infusion time had been an input, versus the described transitions.  I like the character better quite light.  The flavor is moving towards a more vegetal nature, into a green wood range.  It's not bad but I suppose I did like the fruit better.  It's still complex, it still spans a broad flavor-aspect range, with green wood definitely standing out.  Aftertaste and trailing sweetness is still really pronounced but not like in that last slightly stronger infusion.

My patience for making tasting notes is wearing thin, and this is probably a long enough read anyway.  I'll mention the next round and drop it.

More of the same next round, although it is warming slightly, again.  I bet it will go through one more minor transition in character before it starts to thin in a few more rounds and extending timing changes things again.

finishing a few extra Nannuo rounds (left) with this tea

Conclusions

It's nice.  I'm not sure it will be as nice as it is now at any later stage in the aging process, although it will probably take another year for a lot of the flavor intensity to drop off and character range to go through an initial shift.  I'm sure it will still be fine for a couple years after that, it just remains to be seen if it's not just notably faded between 5 and 10 years old, and if it develops an interesting character further along the aging cycle.

I definitely wouldn't put this away in storage to see how that goes; at a guess it might be showing its best character now.  It's my impression that bitterness, astringency, and overall intensity enable a tea to transition positively over time and to age well, and this version is moderate related to all that range, more on the drinkable side now.  Or maybe it could be on the mild side but still interesting and distinctive later on, for starting from an interesting range related to flavor profile.  I won't drink it all so that I get to check back on changes over time but I will enjoy drinking a good bit of it over this next year.

The character doesn't seem too far off that Moychay Nannuo sheng.  I really should pick up that next year's version, the 2018 tea, so I could drink a lot of both to compare them, and see how they both change.  That other tea might've been slightly fruitier and more intense in flavor range, at least at first, even though some of the fruit aspects that were expressed were common to both.

I often skip the part about evaluating value, but will since that did come up explicitly in the initial framing.  This does seem quite distinctive and pleasant, with the main drawbacks related to someone not preferring this style versus flaws or quality limitations.  Versions get better for being quite different but for the style and character it is this one is very nice.  I would agree that $79 per cake is at the top end for a "daily drinker," but other less costly cakes typically achieve quite different results, based on using blending to even out flaws from more limited quality material.  Of course that's something of a sweeping generalization but that does seem typical.  The overall effect is different for those fairly-priced value-oriented teas that I mentioned; they are "daily drinkers" in a slightly different sense.

The Moychay Nannuo sheng described as similar lists for $71.67, not far off this.  I bought the version I had at the beginning of last year for around that and was very happy with the tea character and quality; it was an immediate favorite.  I may still like that version just slightly more than this one but there's no direct comparison tasting to be done now that the tea has faded over the course of its second year of existence.  It would take buying the 2018 version to settle it, and even then year-to-year changes wouldn't assure it's a close match for that 2017 tea.  Both would make excellent versions to share some of, since they're pleasant and easy to drink, if I could force myself to part with some.

Tea and stomach problems, as a cause and potential cure

I just passed on some shu pu'er to a co-worker having stomach problems, and wanted to share some thoughts on the types of tea that might cause the most impact or are most gentle on your stomach.  That's more relevant to people who already experience some type of stomach problems, which would vary in cause, since different people can tolerate different foods and eating related practices.  It seems like the kind of thing everyone would already know about, about how different teas tend to cause stomach issues or else don't, but common knowledge would vary along with personal exposure.

a Moychay buds-heavy version of shu, that tastes like cocoa (from here)

this version is sold out; there seems to be an increase in demand for shu in the past year

To preface the context this won't be a research post (although I do mention a number of sources), and my own take is a hearsay account, drawn from personal experience.  I don't have a sensitive stomach or stomach problems, so maybe that second part counts for less.  But at the same time I've been drinking lots of tea for a half-dozen years, so on the other hand maybe I'm getting some things right.

About that co-worker's case:  his doctor gave him the usual input, to avoid foods or drinks that can be hard on your stomach (coffee, tea, spicy foods, etc.), and to eat food with any drink that seems to pose some risk.  A good prevention or resolution really depends on the specific cause for his own case, and I'm not sure what the cause is, and he seems not to know it.  If he can't get it resolved by adjustments to diet that doctor will take a look in his stomach with a scope, which sounds like something I'd want to avoid.


He said that he's been drinking powdered green tea, which would usually go by the category name "matcha."  If that relates to Thai versions maybe it's as well to just call it powdered green tea, even though the designation can be interpreted as not limited to tea from Japan, per some people's takes (with a generally good Thai producer source here).  I personally don't find tea naming disputes as interesting as functional ideas. 

At any rate that seems like one of the worst teas to drink if sensitivity is a problem, even if consumed along with food.  An old Tea Chat discussion conveyed his experience isn't unique, titled "Matcha nausea?," but it doesn't shed much light on causes or likely extent related to other tea types.  Most people there suggested eating some food along with drinking teas, especially first thing in the morning.

Onto what I think might cause stomach problems (related to tea, which may not be a primary cause in his case), and what types I think would be the least likely to, broken down by topic category.


Shu pu'er:  this has a reputation as being easiest on the stomach, as tea types go.  It can be hard to align that type of hearsay input to actual facts of the matter, and drawing on one's own experience might only be valid for one individual case.  All the same it seems that way to me too.  I'm not as convinced that it can help people with problems with digesting greasy food, a claim that does turn up, but maybe that works.  It's probably better to just eat healthier food most of the time than to work around problems stemming from bad diet choices.  Check out this related article, if it's of interest:

One serving of fried chicken a day linked to 13% higher risk of death, study finds


Matcha / powdered green tea:  I've run out of the range of personal input here since I don't really drink matcha.  In tea circles that's crazy; it would make more sense to tell people that you don't like black tea (which would seem crazy to me).  I could easily pick up a preference for matcha if I drank it more regularly, since it doesn't seem bad to me.  I've tried ceremonial grade versions, twice in actual Japanese tea ceremonies even, both prior to 10 years ago.  So it's not that, more a matter of acclimation, at a guess. 

Since I like green tea the least of all kinds it seems as well to just pass on intentionally picking up an interest in one variation of one.  Of course I've tried cold matcha drinks and Starbucks' lattes, and they're ok, and love matcha soft-serve ice cream, so it's not as if I've never had any positive contact with it.  Hojicha flavored ice cream can also be incredible; keep an eye out for that.


Green tea (also tied to the last topic, matcha):  About the stomach concern green tea is said to the worst for your stomach, along with sheng pu'er, which is probably pretty close to green tea in terms of compounds present (although that isn't a given, and the main impact should be related to a very limited set of compounds found in tea anyway).  I don't talk about sheng here (in this post--in the blog I do a lot), or point out that aged sheng is probably much easier on the stomach, since all that seems to apply more to people further through developing tea preferences.

this sheng was already two years old, reviewed here 

a 12 year old sheng, if properly represented when sold (reviewed here)

Green tea is considered to be healthiest by many due to containing a lot of ECGC, which supposedly benefits your cardiovascular system health.  I believe that it probably really does, but looking into the research gets confusing.  Rats are taking tea extracts in a lot of related studies, which is only indirectly related in two different senses.  On the whole it seems like there is evidence for such claims, but then separating back out research funded by tea interests is tricky. 

It's not as if everything published as a "peer reviewed" journal article was confirmed or well-received by peers, and it's the results of that review that matter, not that a paper made it to be published initially.  Of course in the end people can just believe what they want to believe.

This interesting and helpful Specialty Tea Alliance article on tea compounds helps sort it all out:


In steeped tea, polyphenols are largely responsible for astringency... These compounds are plant metabolites produced as a defense against insects and other animals and are the most abundant compounds in tea comprising as much as 30-40% of both freshly plucked tea leaves and solids in tea liquor(1)... 

There are an estimated 30,000 polyphenolic compounds in tea(4), flavonoids are arguably the most important group of polyphenols in tea and are the source of the many health claims surrounding tea, and specifically tea antioxidants... 

Flavanols are also referred to as tannins, and during oxidation are converted to theaflavins and thearubigins—the compounds responsible for the dark color and robust flavors notably present in black teas. The major flavanols in tea are: catechin (C), epicatechin (EC), epicatechin gallate (ECG), gallocatechin (GC), epigallocatechin (EGC), and epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG). EGCG is the most active of these catechins and is often the subject of studies regarding tea antioxidants...


Reading the whole article is worthwhile; it's not that long, and only catching two thirds of what it means due to the compound types being unfamiliar doesn't diminish how interesting the rest is.  This citation of a study of compounds found in teas shows how those levels map out:

an edited table of compound levels findings from this research article

A few things about that reference: 

I had cited it in a Quora answer, to the question "I want to make it a habit of drinking green tea instead of coffee, but I do not like its taste as it is bitter; what should I do?"

The obvious answers are to brew the tea using cooler water (typical preparation for green teas), and to consider drinking other tea types, which is what my answer goes into.

The ECGC compounds--those said-to-be helpful ones--are shown in the last (right-most) column, in the form of levels of milligrams per gram of dry tea.  There is more ECGC in green tea than black; those results show that clearly enough.  Darjeeling black teas vary a lot due to oxidation level in those (shown in the results); that's kind of a long story to get into it here.


A bit of an aside about caffeine:  CA in that table relates to measured caffeine levels; that may be very interesting to lots of people.  It can be difficult to use it as an estimate for levels in tea since that's cited a mg / gram of dry tea, not as estimated mg / brewed cup.  Let's pick an average value and see if we can convert that over.

20 mg / gram might work as an overall average (see the "CA" column).  We can estimate 2 grams of tea are used to brew a single cup (although that's not a given; you could probably make a second cup with the same 2 grams you brew, but I'd use 3 grams or more if I wanted to make two good infusions).  We can estimate an 85% extraction rate based on a four minute infusion time (that's a long story; check out where I got that here).  20*2*.85 = 34 milligrams of caffeine.  A typical cup contains 30-50, per lots of sources, so it works out.


I also cited that tea-compounds article in that Quora answer, to work through reasons for why someone might drink green tea beyond the taste.  If someone was really committed to getting to the bottom of things they could spend a day reading up on health-claims research, then another day reading about tea compounds present in different types of teas.  Drinking sheng or light rolled oolongs might work as well, but someone trying sheng for the first time might be in for a long detour getting used to young sheng character (what it's usually like before aging), or sorting through types of it (differing regions, flavor profile ranges, preparation styles, sources and cost levels).

As a final aside that paper on tea compounds the table comes from was fascinating, just a dry read, even compared to the American Specialty Tea Alliance article on compounds (the organization formerly known as World of Tea).  But don't let the title put you off; it is interesting and informative:

The Joint Use of Electronic Nose and Electronic Tongue for the Evaluation of the Sensorial Properties of Green and Black Tea Infusions as Related to Their Chemical Composition


black tea, oolong, compounds causing stomach problems:  I never did really clearly pin down what compound was probably causing the stomach problems, did I?  To be honest I don't know.  Oolong and black tea seem to be more gentle on the stomach, but again that's hearsay input, not a research-finding evidence-based conclusion.

I told that co-worker that per my take (again, into hearsay, and personal judgement) it would be better to drink black tea made from more whole leaves, versus drinking tea prepared from ground leaf versions (CTC processed tea), or tea mixes in which the tea was powdered.  That's more of a guess.  Of course the flavor, mouth-feel, and compound range present vary, but I'm not certain that the advice works well as a generality.  Brewed CTC (ground-up) black tea certainly doesn't taste as good, so at least it works on that level, if only that.  Ground up tea or tea-bag tea is usually so astringent that it requires milk and sugar to be palatable, and those would help you stomach cope with the tea too.

broken leaf orthodox tea left, ground CTC produced tea right

Ceylon tea bag contents; tea so finely ground that it's more or less dust

a Laos version of black tea, on the more whole-leaf side of orthodox

what stomach problems?:  According to a lot of people there are no problems; you can drink as much of any kind of tea as you want, on an empty stomach or with food, and it doesn't matter.  Hearsay accounts vary though; stomach problems from drinking sheng pu'er on an empty stomach are so commonly encountered that there's a term for that:  sheng gut.  You don't want that; it refers to pain, not getting a six-pack / washboard stomach from fat-burning properties.

Researching potential links to stomach benefits and problems

WebMD has no take on this, so I'm at a loss for a standard go-to reference.  There are lots of blogs that pass on hearsay knowledge based on minimal training and background input (like I'm doing here); here's one, the "Best Tea for Gut Health" post by the Cultured Guru:


Easing your stress and anxiety, decreasing inflammation, boosting natural detoxification processes of the body, restoring a healthy gut lining, and strengthening your immune system all help to keep the gut microbiome in a balanced state. Eating fermented vegetables with prebiotic rich foods, and drinking beneficial herbal teas is a great way to keep your gut health in tip-top shape...


There's no mention of which teas might actually cause a problem versus fixing one, and she only talked about drinking green tea and tisanes in that post, the first the main one I'm claiming might cause stomach problems in the first place.  Related to that, let's check her credentials:


Kaitlynn is a Microbiologist specializing in gut health, microbiome health and vegetable fermentation. 


That first part might not connect as directly with the second as it first seems.  She mentioned resolving her own stomach issues through steps like taking pro-biotics but seems to have missed flagging green tea as a potential cause.  At least she wasn't drinking matcha, a powdered green-tea version in which all of the compounds in the leaves go down the hatch, not just what infuses out.

There's a simple test for what those compounds would be like, although it doesn't extend to evaluating stomach impact (unless you try it and drink the tea on an empty stomach; then it might). 

Brew a green tea tea-bag for 5 minutes, using relatively cool water (170 F / 70 C).  That's essentially completely extracted, related to any normal brewing approach.  Now brew it again using boiling point water for 5 minutes; that's what else you would take in if you drank that tea made as a powder, what you taste the second time.  Do it again, for a third round.  There is more astringency and bitterness left in that well-brewed-out tea bag, and in eating all the tea you'd be ingesting the compounds responsible for that flavor.  Within the 20 minutes that experiment took you would have some insight into what the compounds in matcha are probably like related to effect on your stomach.


That blogger might have picked up on a hearsay-claim based link identifying shu (pre-fermented) pu'er as a potential pro-biotic input.  I'm not claiming shu or aged sheng works in such a capacity but the idea gets mentioned, and for sure there are a broad range of fungus and bacteria responsible for that fermentation process, which are still present while the tea is stored and continues to ferment with age.  This study measures them, with some examples cited here (among pages of measured discovered bacteria results):

As to whether any of those would help restore a healthy "gut biome" if ingested from brewed tea, how would I know?  I wouldn't expect that most of the people typically making those "gut health" claims are all that familiar with what is present in kimchi, sauerkraut, or yogurt that may or may not serve such a purpose. 

If you read this kind of reference it all seems clearly spelled out; different strains benefit you in different ways.  Read this one instead and modern medicine is still sorting it all out.  On the positive side there is this:

We have hundreds of randomized placebo-controlled trials in humans that have shown safety and efficacy of many different probiotic strains. So to just … outright, those media headlines saying “probiotics are useless,” they’ll maybe strip some probiotics, but there are certainly many probiotics that have been shown in randomized controlled trials to have beneficial effects...


But some common applications may not work out as previously thought:

...So now we’re getting into some of the really surprising perhaps parts of of the paper, which is that probiotics may slow recovery of the normal microbiome after antibiotics... So most interestingly they found that treating the gut with probiotics delayed the return of the normal microbiota for as long as five months after stopping probiotic treatment...  Lactobacillus showed the strongest inhibition of the native human microbiome...


So there's that.


That initial blog-post source reminded me of other findings in trying to look up some wisdom about stomach problems on Web MD, which didn't work.  This Web MD article came up in a search, on When Opioids Become Tough to Stomach:


If you have severe pain, your doctor may prescribe opioids to treat it. These drugs can cause stomach problems like nausea, vomiting or constipation, which can make you feel worse instead of better. Some of these problems go away quickly. Others can be managed easily.

Nausea and vomiting often go away after a few days, but constipation caused by opioids tends to last longer because the medicine causes food to move slower through your system. This gives your body more time to absorb the water from your stool, which makes it harder to pass.

Depending on the type of trouble you’re having, your plan for relief may be different...


Guess what the article never even mentions?  Getting off opioids as an option. 

I just saw an interview with Dr. Phil (conducted by Joe Rogan, with that topic excerpt here), and he mentioned that short-term use of opiods for pain management is fine, but in the long term there has to be other solutions because opioid addiction causes as many problems as it solves.  Which includes death in a lot of cases; Americans more likely to die from opioid overdose today than car accidents.  Really; unfortunately that's not just more dodgy, poorly supported media content.

That's pretty bad when Dr. Phil has to be the well-grounded voice of reason, and Web MD overlooks that a "cure" has become a leading cause of death in America.  He wasn't saying that opioids shouldn't be used for pain relief, or anti-depressants shouldn't be used to treat that other range of disorders, but was saying that using both types of drugs for long-term management of such issues can be very problematic.  Here's one reason why so many people are dying.

comparing lethal dose quantities of heroin and fentanyl (credit)

Conclusions

more of my take, and common sense:  I mostly only ever drink tea with some food, or eat prior to drinking tea, because that offsets the potential for stomach problems.  The idea comes up that tea impairs adsorption of iron, and that's surely true to some extent.  I don't drink tea with every meal, or more than half of them, and take multivitamins (sometimes), so I'm probably still ok.

This next part is so deep into common sense the meaning and implications might not be obvious at first:  eating a varied diet is a good idea, and as part of that I also drink different kinds of tea. 

That co-worker (and stomach guru blogger) drank mostly one kind of tea, and that's a formula for the negative side-effects from that one kind to add up.  The dose makes the poison, and drinking or eating a lot of any one thing increases exposure risk from whatever might not work out well from what's in that food or beverage.  If you drink enough tea taking in too much caffeine would be a problem, or maybe even fluoride.  If you drink one type of tea all sourced from the same place any contaminant or trace element in that tea could add up to causing you problems, and simply varying range offsets the relatively low risk of that occurring.


To be fair (and slightly repetitive) the effects of tea or causes of any stomach issues would vary a lot by person.  To me it works best as a precaution to eat some food with tea (that includes either a starch or dairy component; just fruit doesn't seem to help), but if someone had no stomach issues it may not be necessary. 

Given that my co-worker faces recurring problems even if tea isn't a primary cause, or tied to a cause sequence (eg. he may have a stomach-valve problem, or a pro-biotics related stomach biome issue, etc.) he could reasonably still be careful about even potential stomach issue triggers.  He should lay off drinking a lot of coffee and tea, spicy foods, alcohol, avoid overeating, or eating a lot of greasy foods, heavily processed and preserved foods like fast-food, etc.  No harm would be done if none of those were actually causes; he would be slightly healthier for avoiding all of that. 

If one of those seemed critical to him, even if it was that high-risk fried chicken, he could always try removing it from his diet and going back to it to check on a potential related effect.  It would seem to work best to vary only one factor at a time, otherwise you wouldn't know which change had helped.  A friend living in Indonesia (at that time) had a skin condition he couldn't connect to any known source, and worked through changes in environment and diet until he finally figured out that a flavored jasmine black tea was causing it.  Who knows why, but he stopped drinking that tea and stopped having that problem.

Even if the two shu I gave him don't relate to resolving drinking matcha as a cause of stomach problems they were really interesting and pleasant teas.  I can't cite a review of the buds-intensive cocoa-aspect flavored shu version that I mentioned, but I did review the other Lao Man E origin huang pian shu here, along with two other versions of shu pu'er, and all those were really nice.

some of the producers develop cool tea-cake label graphics now too (Moychay versions)