Comparing 2014 and 2017 Dayi 7542 versions

2017 version left, in all photos

So many of these review posts start with considering why it makes sense to comparison taste teas together.  A new tea friend bought me some of a 2017 7542 (Dayi / Tae Tea sheng pu'er) version when we met at a local Bangkok shop recently (at Sen Xing Fa), so I wanted to write up what it's like.

This also relates to considering what sheng versions are like at different stages of fermentation transition, of different character types and ages.  It's nice checking in with a benchmark version from time to time to help place others.  

7542 versions tend to really need about 20 years of aging to be ready to drink, or 25 to 30 years in drier and cooler storage conditions, so trying 6 and 9 year old versions is a little odd.  It's still interesting see where they are in their transition, and comparing other less intense sheng versions with them at similar transition points can be interesting.

I already owned the rest of a cake of this 2014 version.  I had drank more than really made sense earlier, going a little beyond checking on it every year or so.  I'm not sure what that was about.

Review:

2017:  a little harsh, but surprisingly pleasant in comparison with what I expected.  There's lots of bitterness, coupled with astringency structure, but plenty of warm tones for this being so young.  Of course it's intense.  Some pleasant saddle leather sort of earthier range is present, leaning towards typical Xiaguan range.  I suppose that someone could interpret fruit or spice being present, since this is so complex, but earthiness stands out more, along with that astringency and structure.  Mineral base is a part of all that too.

2014:  this is quite different, relatively speaking.  It's still intense, with lots of complexity, and not in an entirely different character range, but a smooth and rich spice sort of tone really dominates, at least at this round.  9 years is a long time to transition where this tea has been, in Bangkok.  In Kunming storage it would still exhibit a lot of freshness, but this has turned a corner for character form, more onto warmer tones.  It still needs plenty more time to reach its optimum; this is still an in-transition early-form review, a check on transition progress.  

That wood and spice tone is hard to describe.  It's like cedar or redwood, but towards spice from that, with an odd changed character to it, as driftwood takes on.  It's clean in effect; no mustiness.  There is an earthy edge leaning a bit towards leather, or even mushroom, back to that Xiaguan reference, but I think this will clean up in the next couple of rounds, that it might just be an early round transition phase.

I often say that I don't really "get" cha qi, that I barely feel teas, beyond some caffeine input, but I'm feeling these already, on the first round.  I tried to go lighter on amount but probably left off at 6 grams each instead of 8.  I'm brewing these pretty fast (having used a rinse step, for once), but the infusion strength is still going to be high.  Using 4 grams for each would've made more sense.

brewed fast, but you can still see the intensity

2017, 2:  this isn't bad, just as it is now.  It has a green sort of edge to it, which not everyone could relate to, but I've kept re-trying decade old Xiaguan tuos to acclimate.  A rich warm tone is pleasant, along the line of toffee.  There's a challenging feel aspect, for sure, but there is more to appreciate beyond that.  Complexity is good, and in just another half dozen years this may be relatively settled, years ahead of schedule.  Not fully age-transitioned, of course, but just drinkable in a different sense.  These really shouldn't be drank before 20 to 25 years old, to be more optimum.

2014:  a lot of the same applies to this, just related to it being a little further along.  For anyone who hasn't been drinking sheng for a half dozen years this experience would be truly awful, but I'm kind of relating to it.  I think the real story here will be how these mellow out around rounds 7 or 8, what that's like, but of course I can't drink 14 to 16 infusions of these at one time.  And I'm probably not going to do a two-part review either, or discard this tea, or save it for later.  It's all a bit of a shame.  10 cups of these teas is a ton of it but I might get that far, if I brew these light enough.

2017, 3:  There is so much going on but the intensity makes it hard to sort into parts.  Something like leather stands out, then a green wood sort of flavor couples with the challenging intensity, while warm mineral couples with the deeper base, so strong it almost seems to include metal.  Part of the rest is in a spice range, and there may be some dried fruit involved, towards Chinese date or goji berry.  The feel isn't something people would keep coming back to, but it's not completely unpleasant.  If it had a bit more dry edge it really wouldn't work, but as it is this is just basic astringency structure.

2014:  only part of that harsher feel is present in this; it softened a lot in the extra 3 years (not that these were identical to begin with; they may have only been quite similar).  A lot more of the flavor falls into a spice tone range, across both a deeper, smoother root spice range and part like more aromatic incense spice.  There's an odd medicinal quality to it, one that's hard to place.  It seems like sweeter fruit tone is evolving, that it might come to include more of that, but it's secondary to the rest here.  Where the other is like a dried Chinese date or goji berry this is starting towards dried tangerine peel.  The earthiness seems to include some tobacco as well. 

One more round should be enough.  This is a story partly told but it's too much to experience a lot of these.  I drank water in between rounds to moderate the experience a little but lunch and a break will help more.

2017, 4:  it's very gradually becoming more approachable.  By round 7 or 8 this will be easier to appreciate.  The balance works better; feel eases up, and intensity settles across a similar but different aspect range.  Leather effect is more like baseball glove now, not as heavy and earthy as the horse saddle tone earlier.

2014:  that one spice note is interesting and pleasant.  Feel is still a bit much, and intensity is higher than it's easy to appreciate.  In just 3 or 4 years that balance may shift, but again this needs longer.  The wood range tone is still too green, and it's not nearly as harsh as I expected but still kind of rough.

Conclusions:

Both teas were much better in a series of later rounds, at least 4 more, and both are still far from brewed out at the end of the day.  I might've been able to describe another extra aspect or two for both but the main change was the green wood tone and astringency fading, while more positive warmer range emerged more later.  That was plenty for notes anyway, and enough reference for mentally comparing this experience to other middle-aged sheng I run across.

Both were better than I expected, and more transitioned.  I guess I had been drinking that 2014 version as even younger than 6 years old earlier, before I just sat it aside, even though trying it over and over when younger really made no sense.  The main thing that stood out wasn't exactly a surprise, the intensity.  

I hadn't expected the character to have changed that much over three years, but then maybe they didn't start out as relatively identical to begin with.  I doubt that spice tone that really stands out now in the 2014 version was noticeable in that form even 2 or 3 years ago, so who knows, maybe the other will go through a similar flavor range phase in 3 more years.

Thai Oriental Beauty (Dong Fang Mei Ren)

 

On a shop visit outing a few weeks back the shop owner, of Ju Jen in Paradise Park (in Bangkok), gave me a sample of a Thai version of Oriental Beauty / Dong Fang Mei Ren.

It's been awhile since I've drank anything related to this tea type.  I've tried Thai versions before; in the notes I compare this version to those.  It could be a later version from a main Thai producer, or something else.  It was this shop outing:

Review:

First infusion:  a little light yet, but this is really nice.  The profile is just as it should be, including warm notes and cinnamon, and a fruit layer beyond that.  I think it will work better unpacking that as a list next round once it opens up more.  The feel is already rich and full, sweetness is great, and flavors are clean; this should be very well-balanced, intense, and refined.  There is already a creaminess effect, and pleasant aftertaste, even brewed light.

Second infusion:  I brewed this around 20 seconds to bump intensity and it definitely worked; it's much stronger.  Some warm mineral base tone and astringency even picked up, of course mild in form.  Cinnamon is really pronounced, one typical range for this category of tea.  Fruit is still a bit dominated by that.  It might include raisin, and a touch of citrus, along the line of dried orange or tangerine peel.  Sweetness resembles honey, seemingly coupled with that warm and rich flavor.

This is pretty good.  It has been quite awhile since I've tried any OB / DFMR versions but it had come up regularly in the past.  A decent average or slightly above average quality version expresses pleasant flavors, good sweetness, complexity, and pleasant feel, without negative aspects, and this is at least that good.  More refined versions can add even more intensity and complexity, more unusual flavor aspect range, or exceptional feel structure and aftertaste.  Balancing warmer tones and lighter fruit can be quite pleasant, as this accomplishes.  I'll try a slightly lighter brewed round and see how that changes effect.

It goes without saying that any brewing times are tied to proportion, that a much lower proportion 20 second infusion would be light, and with this maxed out a bit (maybe 7 grams in a 90 /100 ml gaiwan) 10 to 15 seconds is already quite a bit of infusion time.  Plenty of people would brew 4 or 5 grams instead, and still stick to that 10 to 15 second infusion time, at least for early rounds.

Third infusion:  this is even more pleasant brewed a little lighter; intensity comes across well, and brighter tones stand out more.  It's still undergoing round to round transition, so that factored in as well.  OB / DFMR doesn't tend to go through a cycle of changing a lot across rounds, but it can shift some.

That flavor list is what is showing through, cinnamon, honey, raisin, citrus, light warm mineral base, but that doesn't do justice to how pleasant or complex this tea is.  Rich feel adds an extra dimension, and it carrying over to a decent range of aftertaste lengthens and deepens the experience.  It's a much softer and more subtle experience than sheng pu'er blasting your palate, and carrying over to as strong an experience as tasting most teas, but it still conveys depth.  A tisane or varied spice aspect or note adds a little extra complexity, bordering on warm wood tone, in a pleasant form that balances well.

Fourth infusion:  shifting just a little in the proportion between those inputs but not changing too much.  The dried fruit tone shifts to become a little broader, and cinnamon fades just a little.  This might be closer to dried persimmon than raisin at this point.

So how good is this?  Hard to specify, especially for me not trying any of this tea type for years.  I think it's above average, even for Taiwanese standards, but with sourcing and tea grades varying it's hard to place what that means.  Quality and value end up being related to cost (and rarity, and whatever else), and I think this is not inexpensive tea, that it would probably push on past the 50 cents a gram level.  A main Thai plantation had made versions of this, and I suppose this could be that, and if so it might not be that expensive if purchased directly, but this is a good bit better than what I've tried from them of this type before.  Maybe they improved processing, or it was a particularly good year?  Or else this is from a much smaller producer; that would make sense.

I might mention how this could be better; that could help place it.  Feel and aftertaste are pleasant, and support the overall experience, but those could be dialed up quite a bit.  Intensity and complexity is fine, but this could be more refined, with even more intense fruit flavors, and distinctive spice notes (although a solid dose of cinnamon is a great start).  Citrus tone can give exceptional versions a little more pop than this has.  All that is splitting hairs, in relation to this being a generally pleasant and novel experience.  People get hooked on trying better and better versions though, and I think as more mainstream outlet products go this already is that, but there are more exceptional versions out there.

I didn't catch the backstory for this, or even a clear price, at least one that I remember.  We met in the shop where the owner had given me this sample, Ju Jen, with a few other people, and most discussion was between two or three others, and in Thai.  My Thai is ok for eavesdropping a bit, and basic conversation, but I also miss a lot.

Oxidation level is normal for this, up towards the edge of black tea range, or maybe even as oxidized as a light oxidation level black tea.  That's normal, and the main thing is that it works, and it does.

Fifth infusion:  it's good but fading a bit; from here I'll need to push this a little harder to maintain the intensity.  More oxidized or roasted teas often tend to express rich and novel flavors at the cost of not being as durable as "greener" versions.  This will keep going, for a number of infusions, but it seems its basic story has already been told.

It did produce a couple of very nice rounds using longer infusion times.  It's a good sign that flavor and character didn't seem off in any way, even for soaking it for awhile.

It seems like this has summarized and concluded enough already, so I'll skip adding an extra section here.  It seems pretty good.  Good is all relative, and there was that limited range for improvement, but this goes a bit beyond a basic decent version.

2016 Kokang Myanmar sheng and 2011 Mingdee Thai sheng

the Kokang version left, Mingdee right (in all photos)

In visiting a local tea shop a couple of weeks ago, Ju Jen in the Paradise Park mall, a tea contact I was there to meet shared a few teas with me, including these.  One is a 2016 Kokang Myanmar sheng, and the other a 2011 Mingdee Thai sheng.  I have two other versions of Kokang sheng around, part of one cake (2018, that was) and two small older cakes (I think from the same producer).  

Kokang is both an area in Myanmar and a producer name, if I've got that right.  The category name of pu'er doesn't necessarily apply to these, being from Myanmar and Thailand, but they're the same type of tea, made from the same general type of plants, related Assamica versions.  

Mingdee, the producer, rings a bell but I may have never tried any version from them.  I think them and Wawee Tea might be the two main producers, but the subject of Thai sheng keeps such a low profile it's hard to be sure.

that shop visit

Review:

2016 Kokang Myanmar sheng:  it's pleasant.  It has picked up good warmth and depth in the last 7 years, for sure.  The brighter floral notes are transitioned away but there is plenty to appreciate; complexity and balance are good.  It seems as well to turn that into more of a list on the second round.  Bitterness is non-existent but it will probably kick in more next round.

2011 Thai (Chiang Rai / Wawee) Mingdee:  generally pleasant but this may be right in the in-between age transition place where teas tend to go a bit quiet.  Pushing it later may help a little, but if it's at a point where former compound profile is half transitioned to different forms that may only go so far.  Again checking on a list of aspect will probably go better next round.

Kokang, #2:  nice!  This range is familiar.  Sweetness is good, and mineral base (in between light and warm, or maybe spanning both), with an earlier floral range (likely prominent earlier) now shifted to warmer tones, cedar wood, spice range, maybe a touch of warm dried fruit.  Whether or not this is a relatively optimum aging level for drinking this could vary by preference.  

The vendor sales page for the other Myanmar sheng I own (one of 3 versions) described it indirectly as good but not great, along the lines of typical for tea material like this.  That was from Chawang Shop.  Maybe this had slightly more complexity, intensity, and aging potential, so the other could be a little more faded at this point.  It would've made more sense to compare this tea with that but I really wanted to try both of these, and I have a few other teas around to get to.

Mingdee:  it's not bitterness that's ramping up but depth and mineral base really is.  This is clean and complex, just not overly intense.  I think it has great potential to age into a more subtle aged range, not the kind of tea that's still undrinkable after 12 years, but one that can finish transitioning in a few more, picking up more complexity in a different range.  

Mineral depth is unusual in this, for being so heavy and warm in tone, and for dominating the rest of the flavor profile.  I think that's partly an effect from the other flavors still shifting from younger to older form, so it seems quiet, because there is a broad range there, but all at a subtle level.  As younger and brighter tones finish dropping out the deeper and warmer ones will be more evident.  It might turn out like aged Yiwu sometimes does though, on the subtle side.  Those can go further into flavorless, if not well-suited for aging, but some might just be subtle, or I suppose others yet more intense as aged sheng than I've experienced.  I might have only ever tried a half dozen relatively fully aged Yiwu versions, so that sampling is too limited for broad generalizations.

Given that I'm reviewing 7 and 12 year old sheng versions the timing for this evaluation is a little off optimum; these would tell a more complete story in 5 more years.  Those small 2006 Kokang mini cakes, are surely not ready even for being 17 years old, so I've not been re-trying them yet.  That style seemed suitable for 25 years of aging, given how the hard pressed form will slow transition pace.  I'll still try one over the next few years but it won't be ready yet.

Kokang, #3:  there is definitely a very catchy flavor aspect that's common in Myanmar sheng, that I've not described here yet, and probably not done justice to pinning down elsewhere either.  In a younger version one would naturally see it as floral + light mineral, but there's a little more to it.  It might be a spice range sort of flavor, along the line of bay leaf.  I've used bay leaves in cooking but not very often, so that's partly a guess, which conveys some general range.

Mingdee:  this is still quite subtle but it's evolving in a positive way.  Heavy mineral is still present but other range is balancing with that more now.  It's more in an aged furniture range, a mix of aromatic wood tones and non-distinct aromatic oils.  A bit of cedar wood dryness and edge joins that, but it's not dry in feel, it just has a dry component.  Texture / feel will keep shifting over the next half-dozen years too.

Kokang #4:  this keeps improving; that's always nice.  Depth and the way it integrates gets better and better.  That one hint of harder to define aspect seems to have a shifted to include a touch of lemon; it balances well with the rest.  It doesn't have the richest feel, or much aftertaste at all, but the feel it does express is positive.  There are no flaws, and the balance works; it's hard to place how those enter in as positive inputs.

Mingdee:  maybe fading just a little, although that probably relates to variations in infusion time, which I don't track closely.  There is nothing new to add.  I have a couple of things to do so I'll try one more infusion and quit the notes, even though these aren't quite halfway finished yet.  I'll steep a little longer so I'm not commenting that this is hard to place, which will probably shift results a little again.

Kokang #5:  this is quite pleasant.  That touch of citrus (lemon), light spice background, nice mineral base, mix of warmer and lighter tones all integrates really well.  It could easily seem disjointed or at an awkward phase instead; maybe in another 2 or 3 years it will be like that.  I'm not sure this has great aging potential, to be honest.  Intensity is fine at this stage but as it swaps lighter for heavier range that may fade, and it's not that intense now, for a 7 year old sheng.  

I might prefer to drink this particular tea aged 3 or 4 years, back when it hit a little harder, and retained more younger notes, but had lost a lot of it's more youthful challenging rough edges.  It's good now though, I just don't know if it would be better or worse in 7 more years.  There's a good chance it will fade (just a guess, of course).

Mingdee:  more or less the same as it had been, mixing the same aspects described in earlier rounds, with proportion and overall effect not changing too much.  At least this is really clean in effect; there are no flaws from storage inputs or original negative character.  Limitations only seem to relate to what wasn't present initially, to the potential it had for aging.  

I think this would be quite good in 5 or 6 more years, but that's only if someone likes subtle aged sheng, versions where intensity is quite low, and rich feel carries the weight of a lot of what you experience.  The warm flavor tones and mineral base won't completely drop out but with this being limited in intensity as a 12 year old tea I'd expect it to be on the subtle side as an 18 year old version.  Which is ok, if someone is really on that page.  

It's more natural for me to prefer versions with lots more intensity that need a little more time to complete transition.  Those sorts of "challenging when young" versions, that aren't quite there at 18 years old, develop great depth, good balance, complexity, and really interesting flavors, but only at closer to 25 years old.

For drinking at this stage it's still pleasant.  That touch of dryness doesn't come across as overly negative, and the flavor balance isn't bad.  It not being optimum relates to an imagined potential, not a real experiential gap, beyond what isn't in the cup right now.

Myra visits while I do the tasting

Conclusions:

It was interesting trying two very different tea versions, again.  It's interesting how the much younger one worked better in the current aspects balance than the older version, per my preference.  There is a common perception related to sheng pu'er that older is better.  To me every version has an optimum transition level, but that can only be defined in relation to someone's individual preference. 

For focusing mainly on aspects and only doing tangents on aging potential and likely earlier changes it seems like I've not fully addressed how much I like these.  This style of Myanmar tea, and the distinctive aspects that seem tied to there, I really do like.  Familiarity alone might make it more pleasant, and it fits in with what I've been drinking most and liking more recently.  I drank half a small cake of that one related Myanmar tea about a year ago, a tea I took to Honolulu to drink regularly there.  It's not tied back to the same producer, but very similar in character. 

The other might seem somewhat related to all the Thai sheng I've been drinking, but the style was probably different to start, and I'm not regularly drinking any from a 12 year old age range.  To me this probably isn't a completely ideal tea for long term aging, but then it probably wasn't in a very approachable when young style either, more in the middle.  That doesn't make it bad, but it loses a little.  

It may be at its best aged in the 16 to 18 year range, or at least relatively already peaked then, perhaps better yet at 25 to 30 years old, but also not so different.  If this had spent more time in Bangkok it might be more fermented (transitioned) now, but to be clear I don't know where it stayed.  It doesn't seem like it started as a very challenging version, so maybe not completely unlike the ones I drink now, or it would still have more for rough edges, beyond a bit of extra dryness.  The North is still tropical but not as consistently hot and humid as here; not even close.

Both were pleasant and interesting to try.  Both are much appreciated; it's nice having a local friend who shares teas like these.

another small shop in Bangkok, off Soi 6 in Yaowarat (Chinatown), not related to this post

the market alley it's in