2006 Xiaguan FT Te Ji sheng pu'er tuocha

 

On a recent visit to my favorite local Bangkok Chinatown shop, Jip Eu, the owner, Kittichai, gave me a Xiaguan tuocha.  They'll often pass on a sample of something interesting, but I don't remember them giving me that much tea like that (100 grams; not so much, but a significant amount).  It's very kind of him.  I suppose it's partly in thanks for me writing here about them, and steering some business there, which to me is about helping others find decent tea, not really about benefitting me.  I typically mention other shop options as well, as I did in the last post, discussing how Sen Xing Fa--another nearby shop--is set up better for doing extensive tasting.

I probably found what it was, more or less by chance.  A King Tea Mall listing looks exactly the same, down to all the numbers listed, and Chinese text (as far as I can tell).  Of course there is also Google Lens translation, but that helps less than one might imagine.  It's probably this:

2006 XiaGuan "FT-Te Ji" (Special Grade) Tuo 100g Puerh Sheng Cha Raw Tea

Listing for $26 for a 100 gram tuocha there.  That probably is market rate now.  You can buy the newer ones, that need another 15 or 20 years to age more, for more like $10, but someone holding onto it to cover that part costs you, with varying storage conditions inputs giving different results.  Then it's probably also an above average quality version, outlined in detail by that King Tea Mall listing:

Description:

The 2006 XiaGuan "FT-Te Ji" Tuo is part of the esteemed "Te Ji" series, denoting "Special Grade" in Chinese. This line of Puerh Sheng Cha, initiated in 2003 by XiaGuan, aimed to exceed the quality standards set by the JiaJi tuo cha. Renowned as "TeTuo" ("特沱"), an abbreviation of "TeJiTuoCha," this series underwent an official renaming in 2016, underscoring its prestige.

Distinctive Features:

The wrapper bears the trademark design of a "Pine tree and Crane," emblematic of the series' heritage and superior quality.

Variants of the "Te Ji" series include the general version and a higher-quality variant distinguished by a red-eyed crane.

The "FT" (Fly to Taiwan) version employs slightly superior tea materials, featuring more young buds and tiny leaves.

I had thought FT stood for "for Taiwan," but that doesn't change much either way.  This shop, Jip Eu, doesn't carry this tea anymore, per my understanding since they've sold out of a large batch they would've bought back in 2006 or so.  I do keep buying another 2012 Xiaguan tuo version there, which they still sell.

Review:

first infusion (after a rinse):  flavors are nice, subdued, clean (as this range of tea goes), interesting and pleasant.  The distinctive flavor that reminds me of aged horse saddle leather is there.  Harsh edges have largely aged off it, in those 19 years.  That would have to do with the hot and humid storage here; that wouldn't be true of the exact same tea stored in a cool and dry area.  

second infusion:  feel is thick, oily, and viscous.  I really do like that odd earthy range of flavors, especially in a version that's closer to ready to drink than I usually try.  I re-tried a 2012 Xiaguan tuo (from Jip Eu, the one that they still do sell) over the past week and it's close enough to enjoy, but not this far along for fermentation transition.  Beyond the leather--or at least what I interpret as leather--there is good depth of other range, mineral content, towards medicinal dried herb, and a little towards dried longan or tamarind fruit, it's just not overly fruity.  Feel is pleasant and the overall effect isn't harsh at all.

third infusion:  it reminds me a little of smoke, brewed a little stronger.  Often if a tea has contacted smoke that input will come out strongest right away, and keep fading.  This might well just be a natural related flavor, which does kind of match with the rest.  I'm not sure if this is a positive transition or not, related to my own experience just now.  I'm open to teas tasting like smoke, natural (inherent) or added, and it does match the other barnyard scope, but it's not necessarily better for including it.  Or worse either, as I see it, so just different.

fourth infusion:  quite balanced at this level; everything I've mentioned is still going on.  It's got decent intensity, of course.  I'm brewing this using a moderate infusion proportion too, for me, maybe only 7 grams in 100 ml gaiwan, versus the more typical 9 or so (typical for me).  Mind you not everyone would like this; to others it could be harsh, or off-putting.  The 2012 was more so, with so much of the earlier rough edges standing out.  I had my daughter Kalani taste it, and to her it was awful.  She asked why anyone would drink that.  I liked that version too (yesterday, I guess it was), but it wasn't quite ready, maybe by those extra 6 years.

her, posing

It's hot as Hades here, trying this tea in Bangkok at noon.  I should at least turn a fan on, but I've not even done that.  It was so nice living in Honolulu where the temperature is between 75 and 80 F all the time, maybe 25 to 28 C, and now it's back to 30s / around 90 F all the time.

fifth infusion:  the complex balance of flavors keeps shifting, the proportion, but the range isn't changing.  Smoke isn't gone but it was only a main flavor input for that one infusion.  Sweetness is nice for this; to me that one input helps tie all the rest together.  Feel is nice, and intensity, and aftertaste expression.  Layers of leather, barnyard flavor, medicinal herb, and some dried fruit really complement each other.  But only for people who like aged Xiaguan, of course, and it's hard to imagine someone preferring newish, untransitioned versions.

sixth infusion:  not different.  I might even drop taking notes here.  There probably will be some degree of interesting change as this wraps up, around infusions 10 to 12, or it could be pleasant and interesting up to 15 rounds or so.  Intensity is high enough for this that I'm using short infusion timing, 5 seconds or so, which will enable it lasting longer than if I was soaking it for longer.

Seeing a Tiger Balm pack of balm on the table reminds me how someone might interpret this as including quite a bit of camphor.  I suppose that it does, as people use that term.  I've never been completely comfortable isolating that as a description very often, but it's there.  Food range makes more sense to me; you get chances to eat those things, and it associates more naturally as a flavor.  Something like smoke is familiar enough from foods that this connection often makes sense too.  

Then I just can't remember specific floral ranges or incense spices.  Maybe this tastes a lot like one of them, and I wouldn't know.  Interpreting it as including incense spice would make sense too, but it would be helpful to be familiar with a half dozen of those, to break it down to that next level.

seventh infusion, comparison tasting with a Dayi (8582):  I was re-trying a standard Dayi cake with breakfast, not to see if it was ready, because it wouldn't be, from 2016 (9 years old).  It's pretty far along for spending that time here in Bangkok, but it needs at least another half dozen years, and it will level off closer to where it will be in another 10.  I keep trying the teas to see the transition patterns, because they're interesting.  It's not even about education or learning, it's just interesting.

The Dayi tea is harsher; it's not there yet for age transition.  It includes a green wood component, and a harsher form of astringency.  This is much better than it was two years ago when I first bought it (reviewed here then), becoming more pleasant.  Positive warm-toned flavors are developing.  

It's interesting how that "barnyard" range stands out in the Xiaguan.  It's not just that it's further along for transition, and it is that; the basic flavor range is also different.  There's a nice sappy effect that goes along with that, crossing over from flavor to feel.  I'm not sure what I expected this comparison to highlight.  The flavor and other character differences are interesting, but not informative.  It was sitting on the table beside me doing the tasting, so it seemed as well to try both and mention it.

This stopped short of guessing where the Xiaguan stands in terms of being relatively fully age transitioned, fermented, or how it might change over some of the following years.  19 years of transition in Bangkok storage is a lot, but it will keep changing over the next decade, probably mostly for the better.  It's definitely not going to run out of intensity.  Most of the green wood type flavor range and harsh-edged feel is gone, so it's fine to drink now, but it might still be a good bit better later.  I'd have to try it in another half dozen years to know.  I suppose that I probably will mostly set it aside to see.

Benchmark reference:  Liquid Proust now carries a similar Xiaguan tuo

I remembered seeing a mention of a Liquid Proust (vendor) Xiaguan tuo of about the same age, and that will help set what a market rate is for this.  Here is his listing:

2006 Xiaguan FT7653-6 100g, THB 1,016.95 (around $30)

Out of all the storage I've had there was always the Yang Qing Hao and Wistaria house notes that couldn't be rivaled. Then comes along this 2006 Xiaguan random tuo that has been pushed in warm and humid conditions in Taiwan. The depth of the tea with the smoke notes that are matured into something new with the puerh... it's a treat that I will miss dearly. This might be one of those extremely lucky finds.

Per the comments it's the aging conditions that give the tea great value, and the one Hong Kong shop that James of Tea DB keeps mentioning, Yee On tea, carries something similar for about double that cost, so $60.  

So market value is somewhere between $30 and 60?  That's a good bit for a Xiaguan tuo.  Next one would need to compare storage inputs to determine if the one I've just reviewed is really as good, or better, and personal preference would enter in so much in making that determination that it really wouldn't work, as an objective finding.

Thai minor deity tea cups, in the MBK mall; something different

Visiting my favorite Bangkok Chinatown shop; on Bangkok pu'er storage

visiting with Huyen and Seth earlier this year

This must copy a few other posts, since every time I get back to Bangkok after a break I check back in with the owners at Jip Eu.  I just did that again.  I'll cover what we tried here, and go back through how shopping there would work for others, framed as advice.

  

There are some interesting strengths and drawbacks for those traditional kinds of local shops.  Pricing is much better than most outlets, even for online sales, for all but the most value-oriented or producer-direct sources.  Range of products is inconsistent but good; they carry a lot of tea.  But then it's not set up as a place to try lots of teas, not as a tourist destination, as Sen Xing Fa is (another nearby shop).  So dropping by to taste tea with them for an hour isn't the conventional visit form; you usually just go there to buy tea.

When you are their friend it's different, and the visit can be more social, instead of only related to tea shopping.  To me they're like visiting family.  As an expat here, a foreigner, those kinds of connections mean a lot, because I'm not as socially connected in friends groups as I normally would be back in the US.  When we stay in Honolulu, where I just got back from, I do things with my daughter's friends' families, and talk to neighbors, or occasionally do things with them.  Here I talk to local shop owners, but that's about it.  Even work colleagues are separated by a cultural divide, and we don't end up socializing much.

So when I dropped by Kittichai, the owner, was happy to share an interesting black tea he picked up traveling back in Wuyishan.  He has family in Wuyishan, Anxi, and Hong Kong, so he's pretty well networked for tea related travel, and sourcing.  He has a friend who makes tea in Bing Dao, Yunnan, as well, so it isn't limited to those places.

that black tea

Of course Wuyishan is better known for twisted style oolong, for Wuyi Yancha, rock oolong teas (Da Hong Pao, Rou Gui, Shui Xian, Qi Dan, Bei Dou, and so on).  But oolong related cultivars often make really good black tea.  It's probably seen as a waste to use the material for that, since good oolong might sell for more.  Exceptional, novel black teas are really pleasant though, as this one was.

It will hard to convey tasting notes; I focused in more on catching up, on hearing how they were doing, what they'd been up to.  And they asked about my kids, and Hawaii, and we talked about tea themes, about market patterns back in China.  They said that Wuyishan tea demand remains strong, since the supply is limited, but that pu'er supply has probably overextended demand, so that especially for factory tea versions demand and sales are flat.  

So it would be a great time to buy a lot of volume of mid-range pu'er, except that you'd need to either be in Yunnan, closely connected to a wholesale vendor, or good with using Taobao to do that.  It would be all but impossible, for most people.  I just saw in online discussion that Farmerleaf actually dropped higher end cake pricing, since that higher quality range of material now costs them less too.  That was for $120 to $150 cakes.

Back to that tea, it included the typical exceptional flavors, a warm mineral base, pronounced mid-range (again I've lost track of flavor characteristics though; maybe like an aromatic spice, a bit off seeming like a rich dried fruit), great feel, and good character over many rounds.  He said that brewing it using a slightly lower proportion works well, 4 or 5 grams per the standard 100 ml gaiwan, using slightly longer infusion timing than for sheng or oolong.  It was just perfect, the way he prepared it.  It was very refined.  It's all but impossible to find black tea in this general range, and since the type and style was sort of a one-off it's even more impossible to find that.

Does he even sell it though?  Probably not.  Often I'll try what he finds that is interesting to him there, his own tea.  Then in other cases it actually is for sale.  Another customer came in to find specific things and we looked over a high end chrysanthemum version and two types of Longjing, that he actually does sell.  One of those was pretty far up the scale for Longjing character and quality, about as good as they ever get, and it would really be worth $1 a gram, if you could buy it for that.  I can't afford that, due to wasting money moving back and forth around the planet.  The more moderate range Longjing also seemed pretty good, from just smelling dried leaf, but I didn't buy it either.  I drink sheng, and also buy black tea sometimes, but I'm in a cycle now where I'm drinking through what I already have.

Again I don't really remember the pricing or availability, for those green teas.  I think I'd asked, but I wasn't making notes, and I was focused on visiting.

A tangent about trying aged sheng, and about other aging patterns

Then we tried a 1999 Chang Tai sheng pu'er cake, which he definitely doesn't sell (although he did; this is the last of a large batch he sold most of years ago).  It was pretty good.  I can't appreciate aged sheng as much as others who are on that page.  I've bought three versions from them (Jip Eu), so I own three of their cakes, a purple label Dayi (from 2004 or 2005), and a Xiaguan 8653, and Zhong Cha / CNNP red mark cake from around that age range.  20 years is a good age range for drinking those styles of sheng, or 18 is even ok, maybe just not quite there yet.  That 26 year old cake had levelled off to where it was going to be.  I've drank enough of both the Dayi and Xiaguan that I'm on the second cake of each now, or really mostly just holding onto them, to see how they keep changing.

I've been trying some of my other older cakes and noticing how interesting aging patterns play out, strengths and limitations.  Today--when I started this draft, at least--I tried a CNNP / Zhong Cha cake I bought at Sen Xing Fa, that was kind of good but also a bit iffy, maybe from sometime in the 2000s (I could look that up; I reviewed it here).  It's much better now.  Some early round funkiness has aged off it, and depth and flavor character is great.  It's better than it should be, based on how it was a half dozen years ago.

Then two other versions I've recently tried ran in a different direction, more or less dying.  One was a boutique style cake from Tea Mania, one of my favorite online tea sources.  It lost so much intensity it seems it will probably just disappear later, and it's probably only a 2017 or 18 or so cake, so not all that old yet.  Someone might bring up the "teen-years" in-between aging forms issue, that it could rebound, but it's really going to fade to next to nothing.  The style wasn't right for aging; I could tell that earlier on.  But I bought two cakes to see, and one is long since drank, and now I have the other to keep trying over many years.  

Another was an inexpensive factory version from Chawang Shop, an earlier favorite online source.  It shifted to taste like wood, a common enough unfavorable aging pattern.  When you buy a cake for a very low price you kind of expect limited potential, and it's interesting seeing how that works out in different cases, over time.  They sell plenty of exceptional tea, that would hold up well to 15 or 20 years of transition time, this just wasn't one of those.  The better teas I bought from them as smaller cake versions, 100 or 150 grams each, so they're essentially all gone now.  I bought Xiaguan mini-cakes and small Kokang Myanmar sheng for long aging from them, and both aren't ready yet, over a decade old but not even close.  

Today--at time of revising the draft, anyway--I re-tried a white label cake that I have no idea of the type, origin, or age of, that's actually quite good, aging well, and in a good place.

I wouldn't say that the Chang Tai version had the greatest potential, or had landed in an ideal place, but it was slightly better than most of the other versions I'm describing (maybe not the last I mentioned, but it might need 6 or 7 more years to be in a related place for fermentation input).  I really like that rough, barnyard flavors oriented Xiaguan 8653 character though, but that's a personal preference, not something that would apply to everyone, and definitely not a statement about general quality level. 

visiting them years ago, with friends I now miss

Back to the visit

I bought inexpensive Wuyi Yancha (Shui Xian) to give away to local monks, who can't shop for tea on their own.  It's not the most indulgent gift they would tend to get, that moderate quality tea.  But it's nice to drink sometimes, as medium quality rolled style oolongs can be.  It's hard for me to appreciate or remember to mix in other tea experiences, as a sheng drinker, but when I do it still works.

an earlier (2022) version of the same kind of Shui Xian blend, from them

what that 2022 version looked like.  blend versions vary, but one was exceptional once.

Kittichai gave me a Xiaguan tuo when I left.  It was a bit much, sharing those exceptional teas with me, and giving me some, but again I see them as friends first and a tea source after that, or a bit like family.  That shop is a great place to pick up an extra Xiaguan tuo.  I think the ones I usually keep buying are from 2012, not quite there yet for aging input, but pretty close, and you can see how that part is coming together.  This one was from 2008, something he sold most of earlier on, I think, so I don't think that you can buy it.  Maybe I'll write about it, comparing it to others; I have a half dozen different Xiaguan versions around, or maybe more, counting cakes, and it's been awhile since I've been through a review.

2006 and 2012 tuochas, reviewed here, with the 2012 from Jip eu

those 11 and 17 year old Xiaguan tuo versions (that aged back then, in 2023)

The range of what they carry that you can buy is still ridiculously broad.  They carry a lot of tin based teas that are good value, like the best of what you'd stumble across in a Chinatown market shop back in the US, if you were luckier than ever tends to happen.  It's a great place to buy things like Dan Cong or jasmine pearl white tea.  Upper medium quality, moderate cost Dan Cong is a strange thing to run across anywhere.  Probably most vendors pass on that same quality range as exceptional, leading to the mistaken convention that Dan Cong should include a lot of characteristic astringency.  Better versions aren't like that, and the couple I've tried from Jip Eu weren't harsh, requiring careful, fast brewing to be approachable.

I'd already mentioned some sheng pu'er range, but they really specialize in Wuyi Yancha.  They sell a lot of inexpensive blended Shui Xian versions, like the one I bought, but they carry much better and more interesting versions.  A standard pricing range for the higher end range is 1000 baht for 100 grams, $30 or so, which is pretty good value for teas as good as they tend to be.  Styles and cultivars used would vary; they don't sell those in a limited style range, as can occur.  When they do carry versions from within the restricted park area in Wuyishan those are pretty good, but that extra demand factor makes them a less favorable value, even though quality level and style tend to be more consistent and positive inputs in such a case.

They don't sell everything that a US Chinese market would carry, but then those tend to not carry much for really good tea either.  They don't sell the little dried mandarin orange peels stuffed with pu'er, and there aren't large-jar stored teas to choose from.  They keep their teas in sealed packaging, with better versions in 100 gram versions, ready to sell.  The inexpensive versions, like I bought, either come in sealed bags inside custom printed boxes or else just in folded paper, made into a brick or bar shape, the old-style presentation.

The random stuff they have around that they don't sell is an even more interesting range, but people would never see it, unless you tend to be a regular visitor, a friend, and then you might.  When I first visited there they were drinking an aged green tea from the 70s, of course which they wouldn't have been selling.  Kittichai must have lots of aged sheng that he sometimes drinks but doesn't sell.  He likes oolongs better, and those can be nice with a few years of aging, but in general they're not so different beyond after a year of rest.  High roast level versions are an exception; those might keep improving with multiple years of aging, as that input fades and balances.

More advice about shopping there

The main obstacle is walking into that shop, or others, and hearing "what are you looking for, what kind of tea do you like?"  For some people that's an easy question, and they'd mention the one or more main types and styles.  Plenty of others would like whatever is especially interesting or novel, and are open to exploring.  That question could be hard to answer.

It can help knowing what a shop specializes in, what tends to be exceptional there.  I've already covered that in this writing, but I can summarize it further here:

-inexpensive, modest quality Wuyi Yancha, Shui Xian (what I bought, what Da Hong Pao often really is); this might cost around 100 baht ($3) for 100 grams

-much better quality Wuyi Yancha (twisted style Fujian oolong); this often costs 1000 baht ($30) for 100 grams

-a range of tin based medium quality teas:  Dan Cong, jasmine green, jasmine white tea, some plain greens.  Cost would vary by quality level and demand, but they would be in the middle, more like 5 or 600 baht per 100 grams ($20).  For lower quality tea that's too much, but for true medium range that's a good find.

-aged sheng pu'er:  there isn't too much, but the exceptions are fantastic.  Some 2005 or so cakes are worth considering (Xiaguan, Dayi, CNNP), and inexpensive Xiaguan and Tulin tuochas are a good find.

-fresh Longjing and Tie Guan Yin:  market rates push these to often be a bit pricey, beyond the range of most of what I've described.  Good TGY is different than the stuff that costs almost nothing, and is everywhere.  It's not worth it to me, because I'm not mainly an oolong drinker now, but for others on that page that trade-off is familiar ground.

-Thai teas:  there isn't much; this is a Chinese tea shop.  You could still ask if there is something, but I'm listing this to clarify that it's not their main range.

-black tea:  how could a Chinatown shop not carry this?  The range would keep varying though.  I've tried great Lapsang Souchong from there, the unsmoked type, and pretty good Jin Jun Mei (just not in the most standard form of that), and they may sell that Wuyishan version I described trying.  What they offer would keep changing, but it wouldn't be a difficult discussion to sort through.

-exceptions:  I once asked them if they sell pressed white tea cakes, and they said sure, and produced an aged buds-only version, that I bought for a special gift.  There are probably another dozen or two exceptions around, or more; it couldn't hurt to ask about something unusual, if it's of interest.

-teaware:  they don't specialize in this, but they have some Yixing around, of course with the product certifications, and I keep buying inexpensive white, porcelain gaiwans there.

Shop storage issues

Kind of an afterthought, but some people would be looking for this, as a main consideration.  If they do sell older sheng, as they do, what is the storage input like, tying back to conditions?

It's hot AF in Bangkok, and I think that plays in as much as the high humidity.  Teas might be closest to Malaysian storage input.  They were just telling me that Hong Kong storage seems more humid to them, the shop owners, and that teas from there pick up an off taste, a funkiness, like dirt or peat.  It's considerably cooler and even a bit drier there, in HK, so I think this relates to shops there managing storage to achieve specific outcomes, like fast aging, and heavy resulting flavor range.

To me tea stored in that shop (in their storage area) picks up a certain mustiness, that typically fades over a month or two after you get it.  I don't think that relates to Bangkok climate, I think it's about a lot of tea being stored in an enclosed, hot space.  To me it's familiar and favorable, but it's funny how people tend to prefer whatever they become accustomed to.  People who love Hong Kong or Taiwan storage explored ranges early on and happened to find good versions from those places, and then that character range, how teas tend to transition there, became familiar to them.  

Over and over you see "separated at birth" comparison stories of cakes being stored in two places, with the friends sharing them each preferring their own local range version.  Kunming vendors saying they like dry storage input seem to be obviously conducting marketing, not telling the truth, but it's possible that teas not changing much, and transitioning slowly, is what they come to prefer.  Probably not for Xiaguan tuos, which need 30 years to get there under those circumstances, or maybe 40, but for other types losing the freshness and brighter range so fast could really seem negative.  It's odd to me encountering freshness and brighter range in a 10 year old tea, and that can happen, but you get what I'm saying:  varying starting points would give best results with varying storage related inputs, and a general preference could tip in different directions.

This input can make it hard to judge what you buy from Jip Eu, or other places.  A month of rest wouldn't typically settle out all of that somewhat negative input.  After two months you'd know what you have.  If they have a broken up or last bit of a cake out to taste with you of course that's something else entirely; that has already went through this airing out process.

One might wonder if a cake shouldn't taste good pulled directly out of storage; is there any reason why slightly musty storage input is a good thing?  I'd be guessing in answering that.  I will say that aging cakes by giving them ample air contact is probably a bad thing; that would kill them, over time.  Maybe the optimum trade-off does involve less than optimum results straight off the storage area shelf.  If you pull a cake out of a basement, or a cave, and it tastes like it had been in such a place that's something else; I'm not talking about that.  

This is one of those odd discussions where people who already know exactly what I'm saying would fully get it, and others would need to go try a dozen cakes to get it to map to personal experience.  I'm not saying that Bangkok storage, and Jip Eu's in particular, is good or bad, I'm saying that it depends on preference, and it's good in one way and bad in another.  I think that the more fragrant, delicate, less challenging cakes I have would transition slightly better in cooler and dryer storage, just slower.  I think that for something like a Xiaguan tuocha or Dayi 7542 you need to get it all moving, to appreciate the tea before 25 years pass, and hot and humid storage input could easily be regarded as better.  Moderate but considerable mustiness from storage involving no air exchange at all is probably negative.  Going into that storage space more often might already be enough air exchange, opening and closing the entry door more than a couple of times a month.

This isn't headed towards even more conclusions; that's pretty much all that I had to cover.

My approach to steady state run training

 

It's odd that I've turned to explaining how to do things that I'm absolutely not an expert on lately.  Similar to drawing on 2 1/2 years of dabbling with fasting to ground a recent post, I've been running for the past 6 1/2 years, but have really only ramped up training to a significant level over the last 3 or 4.  Even then that relates to running 20 miles / 30 km a week at a moderate pace, when I'm more active, doing 10 minute miles or 6 to 7 minute kilometers.

The point is that I've changed practice organically, and have evolved to a form that works well for me, working around unusual limitations related to recovery issues (at 56 years old now).  Longer runs seem to provide a more complete workout, up to 12 km / 8 miles recently, which I first took up about 14 months ago, but I definitely can't sustain running that far even every other day.  So this spring I've been running every third day, mostly, and last year I tried out 3 runs over 5 days, with a 3 day rest cycle, covering an 8 day cycle.  Back in Bangkok I typically only run 10 km, since that's a lot, with heat stress as a factor.  Sometimes I'll run less, mixing in an 8 km run when I'm not feeling it, or the day is quite busy, but over the last six weeks I've mostly only ran that 12 km.

For everyone who runs a main underlying concern is the goal, or goals.  Most people would include health benefit, and for me that's essentially all of the point.  I don't run to compete in races, and it doesn't support some other sports performance or more specific fitness goal.

What is "steady state run training?"

I've seen a video not so long ago (a few months back) referencing the concept of weight training using the same weights and reps over a significant period of training time.  This opposes a much more standard approach to weightlifting, and athletic training in general, of using "progressive overload" to build up an exercise base, along with progressively increasing demand, which encourages your body to develop an adaptive response.  In the case of weightlifting this is probably muscle strength, or maybe hypertrophy (adding muscle mass), but in running it might relate to running pace increase or the ability to run further.

I think generally the same thing is something of a goal, when using this other kind of approach, to train to increase capacity in some sense.  It's just a counter-intuitive means to getting there.  I'm using the approach of not increasing running pace, or even volume, related to feeling like where I am for total pace and volume is fine, that it fulfills my goals.  And probably more importantly, it maxes out my recovery capacity, so that I can exercise at moderate intensity and considerable volume (for me), which isn't easy to escalate to more of either.

It's probably going to work better to explain what I've been doing, and then move onto why, in more detail, instead of laying out the entire theory first.  This approach evolved organically, and seems to work for me, coaxing my body to tolerate roughly as much training load as it seems comfortable with.  Intensity I could really bump, increasing running pace, if I used more short interval training, but that would involve some injury risk, and trade-off related to experienced volume.  Eventually I'll explore that, but for now since I only maintain these higher levels of exercise exposure for a couple months at a time, before something disrupts my schedule.  Then I build back up to the same level.  It kind of works.

A bit more background

It could seem like I'm going to conclude what type of training provides the most benefit, for a general fitness support goal, but as far as I know there isn't so much consensus on that.  One general recommendation is to get 3 hours of moderate intensity cardio exercise per week, which I definitely cover running 20 miles a week, at or just under 10 minutes per mile (200 minutes per week, leaving space for the annual average, since my long-term schedule includes plenty of lower volume weeks).  

Maybe that's higher intensity than is necessary, and related to even considering that breaking down exercise intensity is difficult.  I'll cover further here how most of that running is occurring between 135 and 145 beats per minute heartrate, but I never really do evaluate if that's a great goal for me.

Here's a very common version of that background guideline (running intensity in relation to heart rate), so universal that Google's AI answer sums it up clearly and accurately:

To find your optimum heart rate training zone by age, you can use the general formula of 220 minus your age to estimate your maximum heart rate. Then, you'll target a range of 50% to 85% of that maximum heart rate for moderate-intensity exercise. 

So I'm 56, leaving me with a maximum heart rate of 164.  That is roughly as high as I ever go; for maximum intensity over short periods it's fine to maintain 160, and 164 is pushing it.  50 to 85% of that relates to a range of 82 to 140.  Sounds low, doesn't it?  82 isn't so bad for a resting heart rate; how am I supposed to do much activity at the level?  Mine might drop to 60-some, or maybe 70, but it's not all that low, in comparison with people who run a medium amount.

I still could circle back to original assumptions and goals, but let's follow this on to more details about my training, to see where those numbers are coming from.

For people more familiar with US / imperial unit pacing 6 minutes per km is equivalent to 9.7 minutes per mile, 6.5 relates to 10.5, and 7 equates to 11.3.

All of that pacing is inconsistent enough that to make sense of it I can explain what happens over a 12 km run, then get on to critiquing intensity and pace a bit.

I run less than 1 km before doing a warm stretch, sometimes using a park restroom at that same time.  To me it's all a part of the run, so often my first km time will be 9 or 10 minutes, with a couple of minutes of that not actually time spent running.  It throws off the pace average meaning much, but again to me it's part of the experience, and I'm comparing run to run, not trying for a certain goal.

The second kilometer is a relatively steep hill climb, up the south side of Diamonhead, even though that time doesn't necessarily reflect that it's the hardest part of the run (the 6:42 second km, here).  I take a short break at the top of the hill, as much to enable pushing harder going up it as anything, which is why the third km time is 7:20 (that day; all of these times vary day to day).  I think I wasn't really feeling the second uphill on the north side, and walked a bit more, leading to a longer 8:33 minute fourth km.  In general short rests are built into two places on the run, at the top of the first hill, and prior to the last 2 km stretch, and taking a third short walk break is really not typical.

the view from the top of that side of Diamondhead (at road level)

Diamondhead from the Ala Wai canal

the other side; it's a bit over a mile long

The 6:01 split relates to a downhill section, of course.  I cross an intersection as I'm moving from the Diamonhead area / Kapiolani park part on to out and back the Ala Wai canal; that cross-walk wait led to an 8:01 split.  I do a short walking break to catch my breath right at or after 10 km, but it doesn't show up as much delay.  I probably ran a 6:15 10th km, and walked for half a minute.

 

this total distance and time is an app glitch, but this shows the route

Back to goals, and the steady state theme

I'm running to stay in shape, and because I like to run.  Those km split times look to be all over the place but really I'm running between 6:15 and 7 minutes / km essentially all of the time, which is already a good bit of range.  But why at that pace?  Because it's comfortable; because that's what running at moderate effort works out to.

I will often ramp it up over the last km or two to run faster, bumping heart rate up to 155 at times, and pace up to 6 min / km.  It's odd that I can run at moderate effort for 6:20 or 30 pacing, then it really escalates speeding up just a little, but that's how it goes.

One might wonder if it's unsatisfying to not improve, to gradually drop km split times / pace from 7 minutes to around 6 1/2, then to get back "out of shape" during extended travel, or when I take time off to spend more of it with the kids.  Not so much.  I've been through very minor injuries before, and it's nice to be able to run 20 miles / 30 km a week at moderate intensity, and to almost never experience any of those problems.  3 hours a week of running between 135 and 145 bmp heart rate seems like a decent amount.

I've been swimming quite a bit lately too, a few times a week, for outings of 400+ meters in the ocean for a nice half an hour swim (or maybe 20+ minutes; I don't track that).  And I often walk the 10,000 steps in a day; errands and a busy schedule add up, and the kids and I use beach walks as a time to chat and check in.

flag 200+ meters out in the ocean (tourist for scale)

I do notice that I improve gradually, that slight increase in pace, and that it's most pronounced after I've been running consistently for about 6 weeks.  At that level of training burden (the 20 miles / 30 km) it seems natural to give it a break after a couple of months, or even earlier, to let the aches completely drop out.

Other approaches

It would be normal for people to use more frequent runs as a training base, adding 5 to 8 km easy runs on "recovery days."  Then also normal to use some shorter interval training to make it seem normal to run faster, to condition down to 5 minutes per km instead.  Running quarter mile intervals at much faster pace would help, or any number of varying approaches along that line.

Or maybe not?  According to this, which I don't really trust as universally accurate, people in my age group (55 to 59) run 5 k races at an average of 12:08 minutes per mile, or 36 minutes per 5k.  That doesn't sound right, does it?  I'm running 2 5k distances back to back, at 32 to 34 minutes each, aside from a stretching break, then another 2 km a bit faster, all relatively continuously.

If people are doing park runs without training all that much this makes sense.  It would be hard for me to train to break a 25 minute 5k time, no matter what I did, but if I shifted training emphasis to speed conditioning for that distance it would come, in time.  In "running circles" there is a lot more focus on the marathon than on a 5k distance, and 10k runs are often seen as fun-runs.  People more serious about moderate distances might use local 5k races to test out their current fitness level, running 15 to 17 minute times, but they would be an exception in a local event field.

From February 2024; I was a little more consistent then, even though that was in hotter weather, back in Bangkok.  The point here is that I'm not really pushing for long-term improvement.

I was more consistent about doing an escalating heart rate / gradually increasing running intensity back then too.

This has just been about passing on what has seemed to work for me.  And maybe the higher order theme that whatever suits your goals and experience preferences should be fine, for running, or other exercise forms, or any kinds of hobbies and self-expression.  I don't see these running stats as all that impressive, but then the point isn't really to impress anyone.

Fasting introduction; how to water fast for multiple days

 

shou / shu pu'er is best for fasting, very mild on your stomach

This topic came up in online discussion recently, one that I've written quite a bit about here.  Earlier posts were never really designed as a short introduction and how-to, so to supplement that other discussion I'll write that out here.  To be clear I might have only fasted for a total of 60 days or so, so I'm definitely no expert, really only getting started myself.  

Before getting into that I think a couple of preliminary factors apply:

1.  Why fast?

That discussion was about potential anti-aging benefits, and I guess that is one reason.  I've almost entirely reversed my experience of greying hair, probably from this input, over the course of the first year, or maybe less.  Of course I didn't take up fasting for that reason.  It is claimed to reduce risk of severe illnesses, especially cancer and diabetes, and it was partly about that.  But who knows about that, really.

It's also supposed to improve energy level, especially metabolic flexibility, use of internal fat for metabolism.  And to improve mental clarity, which I guess could've happened, but it's hard to track.  And it's hard to separate causes; I've been exercising more than ever and eating a better diet since I started fasting, about 2 1/2 years ago.  

Of course people also fast for weight loss, but that often may not work as well as expected.  I think my metabolism may have slowed slightly, related to fasting practices, and I've gained a few pounds in that 2 1/2 years.  It could just be muscle mass gain; I am exercising quite a bit, running 20 miles per week most weeks, swimming more than ever, and dabbling in pickleball most recently.

a picture from my running route this week; it's nice here, in Honolulu

2.  Are there risks?

There are risks related to almost everything, including fasting.  In general it's accepted as very safe to fast, by fasting practitioners, but it's probably not safe to fast for 3 days or longer without supplementing electrolytes (sodium, potassium, and magnesium).  Low levels of those will cause low energy level, headaches, muscle cramps, brain fog, dizziness, and problems sleeping.  

How much to supplement, and in what form, is quite complicated.  You can't take pills to supplement salts (what those are), because the volume is too high, and any type of tablet form could become stuck to the lining of your stomach and cause a problem.  Magnesium might be the exception to that; you only need to supplement about 400 mg a day of that, versus 1 to 2 grams of the other two (with that requirement varying by different factors).

I definitely wouldn't recommend ramping up fasting practices quickly; it would be better to give your body time to adjust to the new experiences.  Some degree of hunger experience is normal, of course, and also disrupted energy level and mental focus.  After 2 or 3 trials of an extended fast all of that subsides quite a bit, and your mental clarity actually improves, energy level is quite consistent, even high.  Later hunger experience takes on a completely different form, much reduced in intensity.

This isn't a comprehensive listing of risks.  Specific pre-existing conditions could connect with more serious risks.  In case of any concerns consulting a doctor would be best.

General approach

There's not so much to it; you supplement electrolytes, drink plenty of water, and don't eat.  Most people will consume coffee, tea, or tisanes (herb teas), and some will drink diet sodas, while others won't.  Anything containing next to no calories won't break a fast.  Something like adding lemon slices to water might constitute a grey area; there is some calorie input in that, so most people who fast wouldn't do this, but it probably wouldn't change much.  Discussion of bone broth as an input comes up; if that contains any calories, as it generally would, that would break the fast.  I won't take vitamin C tablets that contain 10 calories, typically, but I suppose in a special case I might make an exception, if my throat felt a little sore, for example.

The concern isn't necessarily the idea of pure fasting, instead that ingesting any calories could trigger hunger response and digestive system activity, even when that's as limited as a cough drop.  It's as well to err on the lower side.  Some people would continue taking multi-vitamins, and other supplements, and some see it as a good time to take a break from those, as something along the line of a "detox," a concept typically not utilized by most in discussion of fasting, per my experience.

To begin fasting one might do well to employ a staged approach, trying out limited period eating first (within a 4 hour window, for example), then 24 hour fasts, on to two days, and so on.  There is no need to try 3 to 4 days on an early attempt.  I did, but I'm communicating this to help others learn from my mistakes.  Experience of hunger over the first 48 hours is severe, and it doesn't decrease much over the next 2 or 3 days.  Your body can adjust to use body fat as an effective energy source, which is very readily available, there just for that purpose, but you need to condition yourself to do so.

How to supplement electrolytes

This is a lot more complicated than it probably first seems.  A first inclination is to buy a pre-mixed, flavored, pre-measured packet, like LMNT products.  That could work.  Even using this approach someone should consult a decent reference about daily requirements in relation to fasting, because the included levels may not be optimized for that.  

This Reddit fasting sub wiki could be helpful.  I think that recommendation range is a bit high, extending up to 6 grams a day of sodium and 4.7 grams of potassium.  My guess is that few people could tolerate anywhere near those amounts.  Everyone would need to experiment to see what works best for them anyway, probably starting much lower in the range.  Their magnesium recommendation of 300-400 mg per day seems about right, and that may be somewhat universally applicable.  The low end of the range they recommend, on the order of a gram a day for both sodium and potassium, might work for a starting point.  Note that this would be the weight of the sodium and potassium in the related compounds, not the amount of total salt, including the "chloride" or whatever else.

It's possible to use very common, inexpensive sources for these salts.  Sodium can be consumed as table salt, or alternatively from baking soda.  Potassium is most typically encountered as potassium chloride, although there must be other forms.  Magnesium is more complicated, since many people report experiencing strong laxative effects from some forms.  It all requires more consideration and review than I'll try to support here.  In theory food-grade versions of epsom salt could supplement magnesium, but that form, magnesium sulfate, may really act as a stronger laxative than other compound versions.

That Reddit sub wiki recommends making up a "snake juice" daily supplementation mix and drinking that, along with extra water intake.  That does work, but drinking salt water can seem a bit rough, even diluted forms.  I've experimented with variations of that practice, and for me it works best to drink a good bit sort of as meals, 3 to 4 times a day.  For sure even sodium and potassium can act as a powerful laxative if you ingest too much too quickly; everyone taking up fasting has that experience at some point.  I can't stand the taste of baking soda in such a mix; that kind of factor enters in.  

Flavoring that mix might be promising, but many people adjust to tolerating it without that step.  There are two schools of thought about stevia and artificial sweetener input, which could relate to this.  One take is that it can cause an insulin release response, and the other is that it probably doesn't.  I don't drink much for sweetened tisanes or diet sodas but I've not noticed any related effects when I have, any problems of any kind.

Muscle cramps are one clear sign that your electrolyte balance is off, or trouble sleeping could be.  I sleep well while fasting, in general, but while exploring electrolyte supplementation I often didn't.

Drinking a lot of water seems crucial.  Some people report good results from drinking an awful lot, much more than 2 liters a day, so I suppose it comes down to personal judgment and experimentation.

Limitations of fasting, related practices

You can exercise while fasting; that seems to work.  I keep intensity moderate, and have evolved practice to use it as a good time for a break from running, but I do tend to walk a lot while I fast.  It keeps my energy level up, and helps me shift over to the experience ketosis faster over the first two days.

In fasting circles discussion the main restriction is on discussing that you are fasting, with anyone, under any circumstances.  I don't observe this, but I get it.  Some people are put off by it, and in one discussion account their company's HR department required them to stop the fast.  It's a judgment call.  People do have an aversion to practices that are completely unfamiliar to them, so in general discussing fasting isn't met with acceptance or interest.

I work well while fasting; the busier I stay the easier it is, and my productivity level can be even higher than when I'm not fasting.  The extra mental clarity, after you adjust to it, is really something to experience.  Flashes of creative insight and productivity can be quite an experience, surpassing what I almost ever go through at other times.

How long someone can or should fast is relatively open, or duration over time.  It depends on the purpose.  People trying to lose weight describe fasting for up to 3 weeks or so in that fasting group; beyond that many report relatively severe side effects, or some in even less time.  Most people there adopt periodic fasting instead, like rotating 3 or 4 day fasting and eating periods (rolling 48s or 72s).  

This is just my take, but it would intuitively seem necessary to eat a very nutritionally balanced diet while trying to pull that off, during the days that one eats, including plenty of protein, healthy fats, and micronutrients.  Additionally supplementation through multi-vitamins might make a lot of difference.  I wouldn't undertake such a practice myself, but then I've not been trying to lose weight.

I fast for 5 days at a time, generally 4 times per year.  For someone trying to maximize or optimize the types of inputs I'm going after, improved general health, and experience of autophagy (cellular recycling), that might be sufficient, or alternating 4 day fasts every other month could be a next further step.  Maybe someone could obtain most of the same benefits only fasting every 6 months, for that same period, 5 days.  To me it helps to not go too long in between fasts to retain the acclimation to the experience.

Other sub-themes

There are so many other related sub-themes one might venture into.  Is it dangerous to break a fast by eating a lot of sugar, or too much food?  Yes, but not so much for shorter fasts, for a period of a week or less.  You definitely should break a fast by eating healthy food though, no junk food, fast food, or high sugar content foods.  Even very high fiber it would be best to avoid, resetting your digestive system with easy to process, balanced foods.  I often broke fasts by eating a healthy version of a burger and fries, so it doesn't need to be so healthy, or as easy to digest as rice soup.  Then I tried it using McDonald's food once, when time was tight, and it took days for my digestive system to recover.  I guess I had that coming, for straying so far from common sense.

Drinking bone broth comes up as a topic, both in relation to a question about whether it would break a fast (it would; even minimal calorie input breaks a fast), and related to a potential input to re-start digestion.  If someone fasts for two weeks or longer you need to re-feed in a much more careful, controlled way, or it really can be quite dangerous.  In such a case using bone broth as a gradual resumption of digestion could work well, according to plenty of discussion input.  But this is a topic I have no first-hand experience with, to be clear; I've only ever fasted for five days at a time.

People ask about what can offset hunger when fasting, if drinking water or salt-water might work, or if there are other "hacks."  It can't hurt to drink a little water or salt-water, but in general the hunger experience is just part of it, kind of unavoidable.  It subsides after 2 or 3 trials, but in those first rounds it's rough.  Your stomach might rumble or produce some gas, and thoughts of food don't quiet down.  Again I think gradually building up to longer periods--5 days; not multi-week fasts--might help.  To me there is no reason why one would need to go further, why fasting for a week or longer would make sense.  Autophagy is said to peak at or after 48 hours, so a 5 day break goes plenty beyond that.

Even though I've said that I've not used fasting for weight loss I can pass on speculation about how that might work.  I reset my diet to be just a little cleaner and healthier after every fast, and I think an approach like this could work.  You could reset, re-start eating, at a slight calorie deficit, switching to 1800-2000 calories per day, if you normally eat more.  You might just reset your metabolism to be slower, instead of inducing gradual weight loss, so it might work as an option to try dropping to 1500 calories for a couple of extra weeks.  Given that fasting could cause micro-nutrient gaps restarting diet to be much healthier than normal would make sense, especially if the idea is to eat less.  If you wake up and eat a few frozen waffles with syrup and then skip eating until dinner your diet will be essentially empty.

One main theme that people lean into in a fasting sub (group) is drawing on support from others to continue a fast, often supported by using an app to track fasting time.  I don't do any of that.  I wouldn't need a timer counting down hours across a period of five days, because I already know exactly when I started.  It wouldn't help me to know that a few internet strangers were also not eating at the same time.  But I don't think that my own approach and preferences are necessarily better for any reason.

I'm also not careful about making sure that I fast for the entire 120 hours (5 days); I tend to start a fast after dinner the first day, and eat a normal dinner on the last, so I would really only fast for 4 days and 22 hours, or so.  These types of practices and preferences vary by person; I get it why crossing the actual finish line makes a lot of difference for most people, as a personal victory.  I would just as soon not re-start eating right before sleeping on that last day, so those kinds of concerns also factor in.

I've not mentioned when I would stop a fast, under what circumstances.  If I feel sick I might, unless symptoms are very mild.  If something feels off I would stop.  I've started to get sick before, the stage prior to the normal symptoms, sore throat and such, and resuming eating a day or two early has seemed to cut short that illness experience to follow.

The only times fasting has seemed to cause atypical health issues seemed to relate to getting electrolyte supplementation wrong, early on.  Experience of an irregular heartbeat is especially concerning; when that occurs I would stop the fast.  I have experienced plenty of hunger, of course, and energy level fluctuation and limited dizziness is normal.  If I feel off drinking a round of tisane (herb tea) seems to correct for that.  In some cases I may just be getting behind on hydration, so that it's really the water in the herb tea that's making the difference.  Drinking a bit of salt water, supplementing some extra sodium and potassium, will often make a difference.  I tend to take magnesium as tablets or capsules, a couple of times a day, so it's easy to keep up with that input.

Conclusions

I don't tend to recommend fasting often because it's just too extreme a practice for most people.  Maybe not as much in other cultures with that practice as a component, but most Thais and Americans certainly can't relate to it.  Since I don't really recommend it for weight loss, as covered here, it's hard to suggest with certainty that it's great for general health, even though that is my understanding.  I think my general mental clarity has improved since fasting, and again I lost the experience of greying hair, which may well connect with other forms of internal systems health that is less obvious.

It's a little harder than I've let on, especially for the first 2 or 3 fasts.  Hunger experience is profound.  I think someone could avoid most of that by using a staged, progressive approach, as I've described.  Now when fasting I can go hours of the day without thinking about food at all.  The sharp, intense experience of hunger no longer occurs, and a dull empty feeling is quite diminished.  It does add some tension, or light underlying mental stress, that never completely goes away.  I find this comparable to the off feeling related to being jet-lagged; something isn't completely normal, for days.  Over time being jet-lagged seems normal to you though, and so does fasting experience, to an extent.

Optimum timing would vary by schedule demands, and how someone relates to different phases of the experience.  To me the first day is very easy, the second sometimes relates to the most experience of hunger, and on day three adjustment of energy level can occur.  Then days 4 and 5 tend to be easier, but mental tension can increase a little.  It seemed to work out well to start fasting on a Wednesday, on work-weeks, because that day is the easiest, and weathering Friday was the main concern.  Then fasting on off-work days was easy, because I could add a nap to offset energy issues, or make the time go faster, and watch more video content to stay distracted.

I think in the future fasting will become much more accepted, in "the West," but not any time soon. We're just not there yet.  Isolated positive accounts will continue to enter into public awareness, but it will probably take years for this kind of experience to become more mainstream.  It's trending more lately, and plenty of health-guru types now recommend it, especially more science-oriented examples of that broad type, like Huberman and the like.  Even so I think people will take up easier versions of their trend-oriented recommendations first, like trying to get some sun exposure in the morning, or ice baths.  It's much easier to exercise than to fast, and a little of that exposure goes a long way for general health.

A pickleball lesson in a Honolulu park

 

Happy Easter!  Or at least it was when I started writing this.  We basically skipped Easter, getting no further than boiling some eggs that we've not colored yet, not even buying candy, with no religious theme component, and went out for a pickleball lesson this morning.  So this will mostly be about that.

It doesn't really explain it, but due to living in Thailand for most of the kids' childhood we were under the pressure of keeping up with two sets of holidays and cultural backgrounds, and the emphasis was on the Thai version.  Easter, Halloween, and to some extent even Christmas were a bit neglected.  We put in effort to make Christmas work out, but it was never the same as in a country that actually celebrates it.

A week or so ago we walked into a local pickleball event by chance here, in Honolulu, when we also tried to visit a job expo (the day after an initial successful visit to that, but we missed it the second time due to running late).  Ray, who runs a local pickleball business, and had a booth there, talked to us about helping Kalani with some introduction to the sport, which we just did.  He seemed so nice that was part of the appeal, along with exploring the sport.  He creates and sells related clothing, with a contact page here, or Insta here.

this one is cool, from Allgood Pickleball

Pickle-ball is nice.  It's like a cross between ping-pong and tennis, which makes it more active and athletic than ping-pong, but somehow maybe more approachable than badminton, which takes a lot of skill, just related to sending that shuttle-cock--or whatever it is--back over the net.  Kalani is a natural at badminton, because she played a decent amount when she was 4 or 5, back at St. Andrews school in Bangkok.

bright sun and an ocean view are so normal it can be hard to appreciate here

The feel is a little odd at first, that paddle not being a racquet.  The rules and form also take some getting used to, the scoring system, and zones where you need to hit it and play from.  Then after all that it's not so complicated or difficult.  The learning curve feels like you'd never get to the far end of it, like with tennis, but it also seems like you'd be into the middle of the range faster.  Even in the first hour we experienced a few decent volleys.

Ray is even nicer as an introductory coach than as a pickleball ambassador.  He's obviously been through that basic training form before, and it was easy for him to break down learning into a half dozen basic steps, and rush it so that after an hour we could actually play, using the standard form of the game, and the normal scoring.  He was great at getting each of us to learn the next thing we hadn't quite picked up yet, like where you really should be trying to stand, or how to judge letting a ball go out.  We didn't quite make it to the next level of skills, how to strike the ball better or play shots in different ways, but it was fun to play within the first hour.

My favorite racquet sport in the past was racquetball; I think I still like that more than pickleball.  But it requires a lot more athletic movement; it would be harder for a lot of people, and I suppose could even involve more injury risk.  It's faster, and requires more developed judgment and reaction about how the ball will come off different walls (it's a three dimensional form, played in an enclosed court, using the side walls and ceiling).  

I'm still more or less suggesting that people check out pickleball.  It's a lot more fun than tennis, which requires a fairly specific skill set, and seems more limited in form, as it plays out for people who aren't good at it.  You seem to walk after the balls a lot in tennis, as much as playing.  Pickleball is active enough that most people would benefit from the movement, even if someone who is relatively inactive and limited in movement range and flexibility might have problems at first.  The three of us didn't have any problems (Keoni, Kalani, and me), since we all played and learned together, versus only her being involved (which was more the initial plan).

Eye, my wife, would have loved it more than all the rest of us, but related to her having recurring problems with her knee it probably wouldn't go well just now.  She will play badminton at home with Kalani sometimes, but restricts that since just walking is already more or less her limit now.  She really should be swimming more; that could expand on her flexibility and range.  We keep talking about it but my 2 1/2 months will probably end here before we do much with getting her in the ocean.

I've been swimming 3 or 4 times a week, mostly out to a flag over 200 meters / yards out in the ocean, over by Diamondhead.  I see turtles almost every time, 4 to 6 of them yesterday (it's hard to know if the ones you see on the way back in to shore are the same ones).  Kalani played with a friend over in the main Waikiki beach section for awhile, so I swam again at what I think is called "Queen's beach," where I again saw one large sea turtle.  Yesterday I also saw a pufferfish in the first place; that's the first I remember seeing one.

I never take pictures of my favorite beach, since I'm there to swim.  it's near that volcano.

In general I think Thai resorts and vacation stays are on par with Hawaii, much superior in terms of value, and probably with an edge in local food offerings, but the ocean isn't as clear and full of sea life.  It's amazing here.  And there's great hiking right outside the city, that you could get to in a half an hour or so of bus ride.

Pickleball would work out anywhere; it's not necessarily related to how great it is here.  But the clean air and perfect weather doesn't hurt.  Keo and I will walk across the large park beside our house to see the other courts we could use today, since Kalani went to another beach with a school friend.  We're not craving playing again so soon but the walk will be nice.  Maybe that's the best part of living in Hawaii, that you aren't far from a beautiful environment, where it's nice to spend a little time and appreciate the surroundings.  You don't have to dig deep to find lots of activities range that helps optimize that experience, but there are lots of different options for that.

(As a slightly later edit) there are three courts in that second place, but two were in use for a very small competition event.  We could've just practiced hitting the ball in a tennis court, since they had many of those, but with the marked-out spaces differing we couldn't really play a normal version of pickleball in one.  So we skipped it, and made due with enjoying the walk through the park.

nature is nice here but my favorite part is always the company

always taking selfies