A pleasant tea meetup with a nice tasting lineup

 

only 5 of the 7 who attended; I forgot to take the picture earlier

Friends gathered at our house again to try some teas, probably the last of a series of a half-dozen somewhat related meetups.  Three meetups were held where I live (in Bangkok, for now, in Honolulu soon), or four, if you also count a couple of friends dropping by in January (visit vs. meetup; not so different).  

To me those are mostly about the people joining experiencing the teas, and appreciating interacting with others, more than a formal tasting theme.  I could have said ten times as much about the teas, at the cost of most of that interaction dropping out.  Even doubling the limited information and input would shift the tone, from a friendly gathering of friends to more of an educational experience.  That's fine too, but when people first meet each other it's better if they can chat a good bit, and people joining has always included some of them repeating and some being new arrivals.  To me it's important for them to be able to express themselves, and for it to be about all of them, more than the teas.  I don't find myself as interesting because I already know those stories.

Interacting with the people was as pleasant as the teas, or more so for me, because I've already tried those teas.  But the teas themselves were exceptional, interesting for different reasons, and more of a sensible tasting theme or pattern emerged this time.  We talked more about whatever tangents came up, and our own backgrounds.  One person had traveled a lot (and many participants have been nomads throughout the various meetups), another was coming to tea from a drink-mixing background, and one was a long-term local resident working in freelance writing, with a diverse background.  So fascinating!  

Two friends I keep meeting are teachers, who alternate working and traveling, with one working on finishing a Master's thesis now.  One friend in attendance, who I've met a couple of times, is a Zen meditation instructor, although we didn't seem to get into that part so much.  That might not be an easy subject to say just a little about.  As usual people were from all over:  the US, Canada, Germany, and Italy, with a longer list of where they've also lived.

This writing is more about the teas instead; I won't summarize the rest about all that.  Mentioning what the teas were, and adding reference links, would help them see what we had tried again, and to me the sequence was interesting.  We keep trying different patterns of experiences, beyond generally moving from lighter to heavier tea character range.  This struck a balance between that kind of pattern and generally just trying what I like, with a secondary focus on the teas being novel.  It worked.

1.  Mao Feng Qimen, Chinese black tea (from Dylan Conroy of the Sweetest Dew, not reviewed, but here are other related versions reviewed):  I missed trying the last sample Dylan had sent of exceptional Qimen, and this was a good time to get to it.  

More ordinary Qimen is just another standard commercial black tea, but versions do vary.  I guess this was made from the plant type used to make Mao Feng, a main green tea type (or at least that seems to make the most sense).  It was heavy on buds, quite refined, complex, and pleasant in flavor, including cacao and a bit of soft malt.  It's not light in the sense that a rolled oolong would be, but the warm tone doesn't make it a challenging tea, and I didn't feel like starting all the way "back" at green tea or light rolled oolong, even though I have those around.  I like black teas better, and I wanted to get on to more sheng pu'er tasting this time.

not that tea, but two other exceptional Qimen from Dylan

2.  Dian Hong (Yunnan) style Thai black tea from Aphiwat, a 2024 version, from wild origin material (reviewed here, with a contact link to the producer here).  This is a tea I've been drinking regularly for awhile, and one we've tried in another tasting version, or maybe even two of them.  It's a lot like Dian Hong tend to be:  complex in flavor, expressing a lot of positive range (cacao, etc.), with good mineral depth, and good balance.  Part of the range could seem to include sourness to some (Huyen didn't really like it, or Dian Hong in general), but I love it.  

It's funny how I'm a bit put off by tartness in a black tea, but one leaning a little towards a sour range is still fine.  To me you wouldn't normally make this connection in trying this tea (seeing it as sour), but when you think about it that kind of works, and for people only adjusted to trying variety Sinensis black tea versions the difference could be off-putting, as it is for Huyen.  I just had it with breakfast, on the day I'm editing this; it's also great with food.

that Thai black tea

3.  local Vietnamese sheng (2024 from Quang Tom, reviewed here):  I love this tea!  I loved the 2023 version, and this 2024 version might be a little better.  It's quite oxidized, which is strange for sheng in general, but not so unusual for SE Asian versions.  According to Seth--mentioned in this blog many times, someone who looks into Vietnamese teas a lot, and researches them along with Huyen--that might be a normal step for Vietnamese sheng processing.  I've talked to this producer and it's intentional.

A tea version essentially in between sheng and black tea probably wouldn't age well, past just changing a little over a couple of years, but if those first years are positive enough that doesn't matter.  I drank a 2023 cake version pretty fast, and I'd drink this 2024 cake I own faster, but it's the second one I bought, and I don't want it to go as fast as the first did.  Tones are warmer than for conventional sheng, of course, and bitterness and astringency are limited, but plenty of fruit stands out.  It helps to push it just a bit to get the intensity up to the normal crazy sheng level, but you can push it as much as you want, since there is nothing negative to brew around.

2023 was pressed a little too hard (left), but the 2024 form is perfect

4.  Viet Sun Son La Vietnamese sheng (2023 version, reviewed here):  I really like this tea too; it's also the second cake I'm on for this same version.  I don't mind the repetition at all, or that I've been drinking Thai sheng from Aphiwat over and over as well.  I try plenty related to the blog review theme, and it's nice drinking favorites beyond that.  It helps keep my tea budget moderate too, but this cake is in the normal price range, I think, probably listing for around $80 now ($77; I checked during editing).  I bought it for one price increase less than that a year ago, and also the year before, so I think it's worth it. 

It's a bit more challenging than the first sheng we tried; it includes conventional sheng bitterness and astringency, just not the most ordinary flavor range.  To me it expresses more fruit than floral tones.  It made for a nice tasting sequence already, bridging from two types of black tea onto a hybrid sheng, then one that's more conventional, but not necessarily completely standard related to most Yunnan forms.

the Son La Viet Sun cake

5.  Man Xi 2008 sheng pu'er sample:  (finally back to using that second term)  I don't know what this is, or who gave me this; I grabbed about 20 teas from samples or favorites that we might try, and aged sheng somehow fit at this time.  Another I almost brewed instead was slightly older "factory" tea, a numbered CNNP or Taetea version (if I checked the number again I'd know; if it ends in 1 that's CNNP / Zhongcha and 2 that's Taetea / Menghai Tea Factory), as Google's AI explains:

First two digits: The year the recipe was developed

Third digit: The grade of the raw tea leaves, or maocha. The scale ranges from 0 to 9, with 0 being the smallest and 9 being the largest

Fourth digit: The factory that produced the tea

For example, a tea cake with the recipe number 7542 was developed in 1975 and made with fourth-grade tea leaves by the Menghai Tea Factory. The Menghai Tea Factory is one of the most famous producers of Pu'erh tea in China. 

Somehow it seemed likely this would be more of a boutique range version, which can be interesting, and definitely more refined.  It was like that.  I know no background related to this version or that area, but I'll cite a source describing another tea that might parallel it, or it might not:

Our 2007 Organic Manxi Mountain Raw Pu’er Cake uses sun-dried Shaiqinmao tea leaves (Yunnan big-leaf variety) from ancient tea trees grown on the organic tea plantations of the Manxi Mountain area. It is produced by Fuhai Tea Factory in Menghai County, Xishuangbanna, Yunnan.

The Manxi Mountain area is located at the Sino-Burmese border in the district of Daluo Town, Menghai County. It features a large group of very old large-leaf tea trees, planted by the Blang people over 500 years ago.

People keep buying aged sheng to find versions like this one, unless they really need super high complexity and intensity, as factory versions exhibit, if they don't mind rough edges that can go with those others.  Or this more refined version is another type of offering, more subtle, but potentially still well-balanced, or other 25 year old teas in a broader range might have settled but haven't faded.

Some aged sheng does just fade, if the type isn't suitable for this 17 year old, relatively transitioned range, but the intensity in this was ok, pretty good.  Not necessarily on the high side for intensity; it was quite drinkable and refined, but also a bit subdued.  Tones could've been a little warmer; maybe it hadn't been in wet storage for a lot of that time, which tends to emphasize that.  

For us not really focusing in on those teas as much as we might have I don't think most people picked up on just how good this tea was (although one person mentioned it), but that's all relative anyway.  I thought it was a bit exceptional, based on patterns of my own expectations, related to prior experience.  But then I also commented how I liked a 2006 Xiaguan 8653 version more, one we tried together two weeks ago, even though we all agreed it had a strong "barnyard" taste.  A clean version of that, mind you, like horse saddle, not like aged barn or manure smell.

that cake, which I really like, commonly sold in lots of outlets (the Xiaguan, not Man Xi)

6.  Oriental Leaf Fu "brick" (cake) hei cha (from 2020), with golden flowers (reviewed here, with the vendor page here; I think this was the Fengqing version, not the Lincang origin one):

This was quite a shift, moving from pretty good aged sheng on to novel hei cha.  That adds a lot of rough edges and rustic tone, but this tea type is pleasant, and interesting.

The golden flowers input is positive, and pleasant, while definitely unusual, related to most other tea experience.  It's hard to describe; it's a little like yeasty, fresh baked bread, just not exactly like that.  Maybe it leans toward floral and spice range at the same time, while based on warm tones.  While trying the next round, the one after this, I kept this tea brewing to try a really strong infusion version, and that was completely different, still approachable, but almost shockingly intense, heavy on mineral layer and those other flavors.

lots of mold on that Fu cake, which is considered a good thing

7.  1991 Thai (Wawee) Liu Bao:  (from a friend, so there is no link or review of this) aged tea is interesting, how it picks up depth, and smooths out any rough edges that were ever present.  For powering through a half dozen teas prior to this, and not slowing the pace, probably that novelty and depth didn't really come across so clearly.  

This seemed like pretty good aged Liu Bao, how those should be, expressing that set of typical interesting and complementary flavors.  It tasted like Liu Bao, just an aged-mellowed version of one, as it should have.  To me prior to relatively complete aging Liu Bao a harsher edge and flavor like cement blocks can stand out, but this had moved past that, to the extent it ever included it.

8.  2024 Na Lang Laos sheng, from Farmerleaf (reviewed here, with the vendor page here):  this is a recent favorite, shared by William Osmont on his somewhat recent visit here.  It's really good, probably the best Laos sheng that I've tried, and I've probably tried at least 15 versions of that.  It's bright, positive in flavor range, well balanced, clean, complex, and intense.  A couple of people noted that it was their favorite so far in the tasting (so overall, it being the last one), and it was mine as well.  

It was interesting moving from light to heavy across that whole sequence, and then back-tracking to this version, and upping the quality level a little at the same time.  Those other teas were already good, good examples of those types.  But dynamic, intense, and balanced sheng is something else.  

Surely there is other sheng out there that can seem to take the next step in different directions; I've had versions like that, some from those highly desirable origins, and others from more ordinary places, that just happened to be really good.  It was interesting hearing people try to place what aspects or character made this different, and that good.  Interpretations always vary, and it's not as if one could be objectively right more than any other (although it can seem like that to some).

the Farmerleaf Na Lang Laos sheng

It was a good place to leave off.  8 versions is a lot of tea, and we weren't tasting the first 2 or 3 infusions, and moving on, we were really drinking the teas.  I brewed all that in a 200 ml gaiwan, stacking (mixing) infusions every time, either 2 or 3, usually 3, so we lost a little in terms of noticing transition sequences, but gained ground in keeping up a pace, and just drinking some tea.  Even drinking 4 more isolated infusions of each--not mixing them, and only drinking a little--would relate to 32 rounds in total.  The tasting ran long, but not as long as that approach would have taken, more like 4 hours instead of the planned 3.

Snacks worked out well too; there is a good bakery not far from our house (Little Home), and what they produce is often made in small item forms that work well, tiny croissants filled with sausage, small cream puffs and egg tarts, and so on.  You can't really drink a good bit of 8 versions of tea, and many of those intense versions at that, without that sort of adjustment, eating something to offset it.  One person brought a mango, and pistachios; those sorts of inputs are nice to add variety.

It made for a nice experience, both related to all those teas and focus on conversation and appreciating the rest of the group together.

one of the earlier meetups, with Huyen and Seth at the bottom (who I kept mentioning)

Cinnamon and Almond fragrance Dan Cong

This reviews two more Dan Cong versions from an ITea World sample set.  Earlier versions were amazing, much better than I could have expected.  This will continue that or not; we'll see.  This is from their website information about it:

That set lists for $80 ($79.99), but that vendor seems to routinely offer themed discounts, so it would be around that, maybe a little less.  Ordinarily 80 cents a gram is a lot for teas, of most types, but for really good Dan Cong that's probably fair.  These teas would be hard to find, at any price.

It's a little odd that the Chinese names for these aren't included; one would just expect that.  It doesn't mean that much to me, but I suppose others would feel differently about it.  It's easy enough to look that up, if you know where, cited here from the Tea Obsession blog (thanks Imen!):

Yu Lan Xiang - magnolia flower fragrance 玉蘭香

Huang Zhi Xiang - orange flower fragrance 黄枝香

Xing Ren Xiang - Almond flavor 杏仁香

Zhi Lan Xiang - Orchid fragrance 芝蘭香

Mi4 Lan Xiang - Honey Orchid fragrance 蜜蘭香

Gui Hua Xiang - Osmanthus fragrance 桂花香

You Hua Xiang - Pomelo/grapefruit flower fragrance 柚花香

Jiang Hua Xiang - Ginger flower fragrance 姜花香

Rou Gui Xiang - Cinnamon flavor (not the same as Wuyi Rou Gui) 肉桂香

Mi3 Lan Xiang - Milan flower fragrance 米蘭香 - tinny grain size yellow flowering plant from the southern provinces of China)

Interesting it would be called Rou Gui, but that makes sense.  That Wuyi Yancha type would be familiar to many (which translates as cinnamon).

Review:

Cinnamon:  that definitely tastes like cinnamon.  It would be nice if I could identify true cinnamon versus cassia (I think it is), the close variation that gets passed for cinnamon.  Beyond the cinnamon this is a bit vegetal.  Intuitively a cinnamon flavored version, one that naturally covers that range, would be a slightly more oxidized version, roasted to a medium level, using the extra warmth and sweetness to pair with and highlight that flavor.  That's not really the case for this.  

It's still good; the lighter style of Dan Cong is nice, and it shows off other parts of the tea character well.  Along with the lighter range there is a touch of tree-bud or green wood flavor, and a bit of astringency.  It's not pronounced, and integrates fairly well, so it's not overly negative.  Intensity is good in this; I'll need to keep brewing time limited or it could be too much.  I let this go a little long so it wouldn't be too light, but ended up brewing this round a bit strong.

Almond:  yep, almond.  This has much warmer, richer, deeper tones; it is more oxidized, and perhaps a little more roasted.  There isn't really vegetal range to speak of as a result.  Sweetness is good, as it was for the other version.  Depth of flavors beyond that almond range is nice.  There is good complexity to this, and it all balances well.  Feel might be slightly richer than the first as well.

It's that greater complexity and balance that makes it stand out over the other, at least at this point.  But the flavor range itself is interesting and positive too, beyond just covering some ground.  It leans a little towards spice tones, almost nutmeg, or actually that works as an interpretation.  To me nutmeg comes across as a fairly complex spice flavor, and this matches that, it's not simple.  It might even work to interpret one part of this as cinnamon.  The processing seems to have highlighted the potential of this tea very well.  The first lighter style can really draw out bright and fresh floral tones, but it may not be as suitable for this material version.  Of course that's on to guessing; I'm not qualified to conclude that.

Cinnamon #2:  this works better brewed lighter, which may also relate to the tea softening up a little on the second infusion.  In a recent tasting the subject of how different infusions vary came up, which we really didn't pursue far in talking then, but to me that just varies by tea type, and by version.  The old theme of "second is best" might work in a limited sense, but it's also too simple.  It depends on how any given version is transitioning across rounds.

A perfume-like floral range really kicks in for this.  Cinnamon isn't as noticeable this round.  It's still present, but only at the same level as other inputs.  Feel is richer even though this is brewed much lighter.  A vegetal edge has faded some, dropping to a more positive level.  To be clear this doesn't include a characteristic harsh edge some lower quality Dan Cong express, the type that you need to brew around by brewing rounds very light (even lighter than this, maybe).  I infused this for about 10 seconds, but a flash infusion would be different.

Almond:  this is so good.  The other is nice, very pleasant, complex, balanced, and interesting, but this is just better, across most of those dimensions.  Part of that could be my preference for this warmer toned style, but I also think it's just a better tea, or at least the processing optimized outcome better.  Everything stands out at once, all of those general themes, and sweetness, warm tones, complex pleasant flavors (almond and spice), rich feel, good intensity, etc.  

Almond with spice sounds like some sort of cookie range, doesn't it?  It's like that.  That warmth, richness, and depth almost comes across as a butter based shortbread cookie too.  This would be really fantastic to drink during cool weather, to actually pair with a winter holidays theme.  It's probably in the mid-80s F (30 C), and quite humid where I am now, but it's still nice, it would just match that cooler environment range better.  To me bright, sweet, aggressive but drinkable sheng pu'er matches the experience of heat well.

Cinnamon #3:  I'll stick with relatively fast infusions for now, again at about 10 seconds.  This is as good as the last round, still really hitting its stride.  The brighter, fresher, now only slightly vegetal edge, more into hardwood range, isn't really negative, but not necessarily positive either.  It integrates fairly well with the rest, but it's not as pleasant as the cinnamon and floral tones.  Overall balance is good.  To me this is still pretty good quality Dan Cong, but it doesn't match the level of the other version.  Again, maybe that's preference related?  Seems not, but maybe.

Almond:  the last description still works, all those positive things I was saying about this.  The almond flavor you notice early on, then a heavy and complex spice range kicks in, then as that fades the almond comes back out more again in the aftertaste.  It's funny how a tea experience can be like an almond cookie, as I mentioned, but the experience is so much more complex and refined.  Of course an almond cookie tastes exactly like an almond cookie, but the depth of feel, richness, layering of floral tones, and touch of liqueur-like character all go well beyond what a cookie could deliver.  Or maybe adding a little cognac in a cookie would be good?

I'm sure that these will transition a little more over the next couple of rounds, but I may not get back to making notes on that.  I had a big breakfast and don't feel ok with powering through 8 to 10 cups of these just now.  Breakfast was very pleasant, and quite healthy:  oatmeal with raisin and banana, two fried eggs, some fruit that seems like a cross of mango and plum, and a bit of goji berry.  I'll go do something related to getting all of this to digest some.

Of course I tried rounds later, and the teas were still very nice, but not varied enough to add much about that here.

The same is true of conclusions in general; the teas were as described.  The Cinnamon version was good and Almond version really good.  

The Almond version was good enough that it's hard to put it on a scale.  There are layers and sub-themes that come into play, beyond pleasant flavor.  These include feel (body), intensity, sweetness, overall balance, depth, aftertaste, and marker sort of aspects, like a liqueur-like quality.  I suppose that any tea could be better, but this is pretty far up there, beyond what I can place in relation to others.

Then the flavors were interesting too, and balanced well with each other.  It's still only tea, but the really interesting experiences are something else.

Does tea attract a certain type of people?

 

A Reddit post just brought up this theme (here, Does tea attract a certain type of people?).  It's a great question.  Their speculation included adding this, cited in its entirety because this framing is really helpful:

I drink a lot in tea rooms and like to just sit and listen to people talk. Mostly there's a certain type around me though. Students, hippie people, artists, long-haired men, older liberal arts professors etc. I've never had anything like that happen in a coffee shop. Do you also feel like tea is attracted to a certain culture, that maybe goes against consumerism as opposed to people who drink coffee?

I commented this, and I'll add a little more here:

It is appealing to a range of different people, but it might not be a broad range. I've been writing a blog about tea for 11 years, and active in tea groups for longer, meeting people locally who are into tea, and this theme keeps coming up.

That list works for a start; hippies and tea kind of pair naturally. For some reason 30 or so year old guys working in IT can connect with tea, in plenty of cases. My guess is that it's easy to burn out on overdoing it with coffee, and there's a lot of novel experience to be had with tea, and a lot to learn. The "figuring it out" aspect can be appealing, to some.

People with somewhat liberal inclinations, who aren't necessarily hippies, can also naturally connect with tea. It helps being into nature themes, Eastern or foreign cultures, and to some extent aesthetics, since those are subjects that can overlap.

More conservative but open minded, typically older individuals can also get the appeal. For this approach point the exclusivity might connect, more than foreign cultural association. It's possible to learn, know things, and experience things that aren't really easily accessible to others; taken in one way tea can connect with status. Ownership of a collection of valuable clay tea pots might be part of the appeal, approached this way. Any of these people could wear an Asian oriented robe while drinking tea, or martial arts type clothing, but for most this wouldn't apply.

Some common characteristics are implied there:  openness to atypical experience, tendency for exploration, cultural openness, and individual connection with one or more parts of the tea experience (flavor / food oriented, tied to Asian culture, problem solving related to learning about types or brewing approach, appeal related to exclusivity, or ownership of hard to access range of goods or teas).  On the aesthetic side someone might want to wear Asian oriented clothing, or in a more common form they might just like drinking tea outside in nature.  

Drinking tea can be a meditative experience; coffee is perfect for picking up a to-go drink that travels well, and for one range of tea experience spending a half an hour or an hour appreciating multiple infusions of an exceptional version is a main point.  It's easy to see how aesthetics and other factors could adjoin that.

(also included in that post as a comment):  

At tea tasting last month in Bangkok, with people from all over the world. they didn't share one theme in common (besides liking tea), but openness to new experiences and cultural expression seemed common. No one really represented the "hippie" type, but two people covered some limited aspects of that general range (no, not the woman wearing a scarf).

One interesting tangent of all this is how it's natural for people who are into tea to expect some degree of shared experience, and perspective.  It seems like all "tea enthusiasts" go through making this assumption, then probably adjust it later on when they realize that it really does apply, in part, but then to some extent it also doesn't.

I never fully addressed the initial point that people into tea might oppose consumerism, which the OP linked to coffee interest, the person who initiated that group discussion.  Indirectly I rejected it, saying that one sub-segment of people into tea actually lean into purchasing exotic, costly tea types and teaware, using purchasing and ownership as a status symbol.  But at the same time that initial opposition to consumer culture kind of works, for many others.  People into tea tend to want to own a limited, basic set of gear for brewing a couple of different ways, and then it's less common for that to translate into a cycle of continual collection.  That does come up, but not for most.  Pu'er enthusiasts tend to collect the actual tea, since that type changes and can improve with age.  

Let's consider a limited example, from someone in that earlier picture who is one of my absolute favorite "tea friends."  I'm talking about Huyen, in Vietnam; this post works as well as any for an introduction to who she is, even though it's a bit dated now, and there's more to tell.

So what are we looking at here?  Obviously they collect teaware, and are into the aesthetic side.  But to me this doesn't represent a status-oriented pursuit of self-definition, a way to place themselves above others who also like tea, by owning things.  They are unusually into the aesthetic side of tea experience.  This didn't stem from a somewhat recent urge to collect that tea gear, versus focus on the experience; their family connection to tea goes way back.  

They don't share that much in common with American liberals though, related to the generality framed in the original post question.  That US left / right liberal / conservative divide wouldn't even be familiar to them, in the same sense it is to Americans.

Next one might wonder how much difference it makes preparing tea in this sort of teaware, versus using a very basic set-up.  Use of clay pots is functional, and it does change things, so that part isn't mostly aesthetic, even if partly so.

The aesthetic part of the experience adds a layer of function, I would expect.  When I mentioned that many people love combining tea experience with an outdoor setting I meant that it changes what you experience, the tone of it, how it feels.  If I drink tea outside, and I often do, on a cool and pleasant day it's quite different than having it at the dining room table.  Birds, a breeze, plants, natural sunlight; all of these add a slightly different dimension.  The same must be occurring in that comfortable and aesthetically pleasing tea room, in that photo.

This might come across as a little odd, but Huyen's family isn't smiling for that photo, they are expressing how they feel at that moment, and typically seem a lot more relaxed and joyful than just about anyone I've ever met with online.  And of course I meet Huyen in person from time to time; she's in the other picture before that, and in others I'm sharing here.  I don't think all that tea gear brings them this joy, but their lives seem to integrate in a positive way.  They seem radiant.  My take is that it stems from living in sync with their own core principles, and appreciating the connections they have with others, and with varying life experiences.  Surely tea is a part of that.  

Let's go a little further, with another photo example:

Huyen again!  And Seth, another good friend, at the bottom.  This was a meetup at our house, appreciating interesting teas in an outdoor setting (using really basic teaware).

This reminds me of a part of the initial intro to this topic, not addressed specifically there, about discussion forms or range that might go with drinking tea (where that intro was instead about the people doing the talking).  We sometimes discuss a lot about the actual teas, and I've written about these meetups in this blog, and cover some of that, but more often it's just personal discussion, about background, perspective, life events, and so on.  Politics comes up, but discussion tends to steer back off that relatively quickly, as a relevant subject that's not any more interesting than others.  

I guess that it's not so different than when anyone meets for any reason, to talk about anything.  But the shared perspective and experience theme somehow stands out, that travel themes come up, and cultural issues, philosophy and religion, and so on.  I'm sort of implying that everyone has more broad interests and experiences than average, but that's not really what I mean.  It's that these layers of experience seem to come to light, and to be seen as novel and interesting, where something like more mundane travel experience could just be about sharing having had experiences, without peeling back the layers of what those tended to mean.  

Why is an old Laos night market experience novel and appealing, maybe different than a modern Bangkok version of the same thing?  Hard to say, but one could speculate, and share perspective on that.  It's something about feel, and historical context experienced in the present, about a unique setting, and a local culture.

that's Korea; it's completely different

I have a photo with baby Keoni in it just like this (a Luang Prabang market; photo credit)

There's an inclination many travel-oriented tea enthusiasts share to seek out the original, earlier, more authentic tea experience.  It brings people to tea production areas, and old sections of remote Chinatowns, to old shops and tea houses.  

There is novel perspective and deep history out there.  But eventually all of that seems to connect people back to their own present-day life experiences, later on, after they process all of that.  They see that it's all about appreciating the moment, and connections with others, or to a place, or natural environment.  It's about the present continuing and extending the experiences people valued in the past.  It's this journey that can be particularly interesting, to share with others, and to hear of their version of it.

some people are living embodiments of older tea traditions; I see Cindy in this way

This reminds me of some of my own starting points; I'll share a couple here.  One early intro came from a work trip, a visit to Shenzhen, China, seeing a Gong Fu tea presentation at an IT product demonstration area there:

That may not have been the most authentic presentation of that cultural background, perhaps packaged and adjusted just a little, used as background for that other main sales scope theme, but most of what they shared was completely genuine and valid.

the Wonosari tea plantation, on Java, Indonesia. 

I don't travel specifically related to tea, doing family trips instead, but I have seen it growing a few times.  That kind of experience and connection could be especially meaningful to tea enthusiasts.  In that area shown in the photo, in Java, Indonesia, it ties back to the older Dutch history, and on to what modern people experience, and how their tea culture is currently changing.  As tea culture is transitioning everywhere, and many aspects of many local cultures are.  Tea related experience can make for an interesting lens to view those layers of changes through.

Let's take this in a more controversial direction before closing; there can be a darker side to cultural transitions.  All sorts of people would love all sorts of travel experiences, and older cultures and history can end up being packaged for consumption in all sorts of ways (as tea history was in an IT equipment vending demonstration center).

This represents Polynesian cultures being interpreted and presented for appreciation in a popular Oahu, Hawaii based theme park.  Looked at one way there is nothing controversial or questionable about this; these parts of those local traditions are very well-grounded in earlier and relatively recent history.  But this could seem like a caricature of those forms and images, to others, as an example of appropriation.

It's definitely presented for-profit, which isn't necessarily problematic, but that opens the door to a possible tendency to package what works well, maybe even adjusting that content a little, and skip over parts that aren't so relatable.  Did colonization destroy some of that earlier cultural experience and expression?  Surely it did.  This park is owned and ran by Mormons; I suppose that framing doesn't help.  They recruit younger Polynesian adults to work in the park, which sort of helps, but in one sense that's better and in another potentially worse.

I'm not saying that tea history is being obliterated while being re-packaged for Western consumption, but history and culture is always being overwritten, to a certain extent.  Hopefully tea exploration, and especially tea tourism, takes on forms that continue to value what really occurred in the past, and honors and preserves the modern living cultures.  This is the kind of thing I tend to find people at tea meetups most interested in discussing; how what came before translates into interesting experiences and perspectives that are available now.

Reviewing Farmerleaf (Jinggu), Viet Sun (Vietnamese), and ITea World aged shou pu'er

 

I'm comparing three shou / ripe pu'er versions, one from Farmerleaf (so of course from Yunnan), another from Viet Sun (Vietnamese), and an aged version from ITea World, part of a themed aged tea set.  Going in I kind of didn't know what to expect, but I expected the Farmerleaf version to have an edge, because they've been sourcing pretty good Yunnan teas for awhile.  

I suppose it worked out as one might expect; it was a little better, but the Viet Sun was pretty solid, and novel, and the ITea World version represented well-aged tea well enough.

2023 Ku Zhu Shan  ($140 for 357 gram cake)

Ku Zhu Shan old tea gardens, Jinggu area

Fermented in Menghai in Winter 2023, medium-heavy fermentation

Complex mouthfeel, a hint of aggressiveness

Ku Zhu Shan is a village located east of Jinggu town, it has a lot of 'teng tiao' gardens, in which the tea trees are allowed to grow tall with fewer long branches, it's a special way of pruning the trees. This tends to give a more powerful brew by limiting the amount of leaves growing. 

You can notice the leaves are big and rich in tea buds. This tea has a complex taste which will carry you through a long session. You could even find hints of bitterness if you brew it strong. 

This was pretty good (I add the citations after the notes).  There's no way I'd ever spend $140 on a cake of shou, but at least it's good.

Thượng Sơn Small Batch-Ripe Puerh 2024  ($52 for 250 grams)

A nice small batch production from a new ripe puerh making friend of ours in Hà Giang. The raw puerh used to make this tea is spring 2023 high quality old/ ancient tree material from Thượng Sơn that was wok processed which isn’t too common in ripe puerh production. 

This tea brews up slowly into a rich dark brown/ black brew with some mahogany red hues. Sweet with earthy fragrant wood, and herbal dark sugar notes. This tea retains a bit of bitterness which balances well with the heavy sweetness. Thick mouthfeel and a lasting finish with a relaxing qi effect. 

The high raw material quality of this tea shows over the course of the session and performs well over many rounds. This tea is med-low on the fermentation scale and should age nicely with proper storage. 

The description doesn't sound so different than the Farmerleaf version, but this does cost about half as much.  Note that the sample seems to say that was a 2017 tea version (in the following photo), while this is claiming 2023, so it may not be identical.  There wasn't much shou being produced in Vietnam 8 years ago so it seems likely that writing is wrong, or unclear, especially since this listing from the same location is on his site.  [later edit]:  this was a 2017 version of a tea they sell more recent versions of.  Strange it was produced that long ago.

Quality level, complexity, and depth gives up a little (assuming that it is this version), but for as good as this is I'd definitely buy it instead of that Ku Zhu Shan version.  For people into good shou, who value the difference, the opposite conclusion might make sense, but that's as hard for me to relate to as people drinking Japanese green teas.

For the ITea World sample the information will be limited.  It's from this set, 100 grams of mixed aged teas selling for $76 for 100 grams (so it's by far the most expensive, but it's the rarity of other versions driving that pricing, not so much this version).

iTeaworld 2025 New Year Tea Gift Set (Year of the Snake Edition) - The Collection of 10 Aged Teas: Includes 20-Year-Old Ripe Pu-erh, 40-Year-Old Hei Zhuan (Black Brick Tea), 30-Year-Old Oolong, and more

Not much in there about this tea, or even in the site background.  It's Yunnan shou pu'er; that's it.

Review:

Farmerleaf Khuzhu Shan (the rinse):  I'll just pass an on initial impression, prior to the actual real steeps.  For a flash infusion this is pretty good; it's intense and rich, with good depth and feel already.  This will be a challenge for the other two to match.

Viet Sun (Thuong Son):  much thinner and less intense, but then this is only the rinse.

ITea World:  it's smooth, and has depth, but it's not looking good so far.  But then for this being much older, 2003, it may come around quite a bit after a rinse, removing a lot of what isn't as positive fast.

Farmerleaf KS (first actual infusion):  that's pretty dialed in to good shou range.  Some cacao works as a base, along with general earthiness, and then a bit of spice and dried fruit stands out from there.  Intensity is good; I brewed these fast to try a light round, between 15 and 20 seconds, and it's already there.  Depth is good; feel is nice, pleasantly thick.  Aftertaste doesn't extend as with sheng but it does support the experience of complexity.  It's clean.  Even the early fermentation rough edges seem gone, within two years of this being made.  It's a shame that I don't like shou more; this is a really good example of one.

Viet Sun:  there's an interesting distinctive flavor range in this; thinking it through that was the one way that it could hold its own, given the first version is as good as it seems.  There's a perfume-like note (possibly a foreign input, but the rest of flavor is quite novel, so maybe not), and rich, warm, earthy tones, along with pleasant spice range.  It might be slightly thinner and less intense and complex than the first, probably giving up the most related to depth, whatever I take that to mean.  More fragrant flavor range is quite pleasant, and also clean, but the feel and base flavor range (depth, earthy and mineral tones) doesn't match it.

ITea World:  a pronounced aged furniture input is interesting, like aromatic woods and essential oils that have been resting for a couple of decades, or longer.  It's also relatively clean; I guess age does tend to soften rough edges, and this is 22 years old, with the Vietnamese version 8 years old, plenty of time for a shou to settle.  Related to the Farmerleaf version that lack of age could have limited positive nature, depending on the starting point.  Sometimes inky, petroleum or tar-like flavors can transition into a creaminess, over some time.  It seemed to be a bud-heavy version, that probably wasn't fermented to death (absolutely completely), so it probably retained brighter flavors when new.  Sometimes high bud content shou ends up tasting like cacao, as that did.

Richness and depth are fine, and intensity.  All of these are pretty good, really.  I expect a longer soak will really let the Farmerleaf version shine, and improve the Viet Sun results some, and this will just gain a touch more intensity.  This older version could fade faster than the other two; aging can convert flavors in interesting ways but different kinds of transitions can lead teas to "brew out" faster.  I'm probably using one gram or so less of this version, which won't help it in comparison.  

Related to this showing off what a 20+ year old shou is like this really works.  In terms of matching the complexity and quality of whatever this Farmerleaf version is, and the novelty of the Viet Sun tea, that's asking too much.  It's not noticeably inferior to either, it's on the same general level, and that's already a major victory.

Farmerleaf Ku Zhu Shan (#2):  these brewed for closer to 30 seconds, for a longish soak.  It's unusual how good this is, how positive all the layers of flavors and other aspects are, and how it all comes together.  It will be interesting to hear what this is.  

Plenty of cacao stands out.  That can taste like dark chocolate, or the actual powdered coffee bean, or I suppose even a little like cocoa, but in this it's like ground cacao bean, like what you bake with, or even how the nibs smell and brew out (fresh chunks).  Warmth stands out beyond that, a clean version of earthiness.  The rest blends a bit but warm mineral, some spice tone, and what I take to be limited dried fruit input all combine, along the line of a hint of dried dark cherry, but interpretations would vary.  Balance is good, the completeness of the experience.  As for intensity shou is only ever so intense but this is doing fine with that.  Feel is relatively rich, a little oily; it's positive.

Viet Sun:  actual flavor layers are even more novel in this.  It's expressing something more like novel and mixed spice range.  Warm tones are pleasant, and feel is nice, with some underlying mineral, but it doesn't strike that really unconventional balance of hitting every note in sync that the first (Farmerleaf) version does.  It's good, and it's balanced, just a little lighter and less complex and intense in overall effect.  I really didn't expect it to be this good.  I should be mentioning more of a flaw than a lack of intensity across some scope, like an off flavor, odd feel, something like that.  Vietnam just hasn't been producing high end shou for long, and it's not just a matter of piling up some decent material and keeping it wet but not too wet.

As a sheng drinker it's odd switching this back to personal preference as a filter.  I miss that hit of intensity, the high bitterness, sweetness, strong flavor, intense feel, crazy complexity, and I suppose although I don't acknowledge it often the body rush from consuming it.  These are just pretty good.  Maybe on a cold fall day it would really make more sense; it's probably about 31 out now (C; that's almost 90 F), and ridiculously humid.  You don't crave warm toned teas on a day like this.

ITea World:  aged effect, the old furniture theme, and some extra medicinal spice picks up, along the line of whatever that really diverse set of spices they sell you in Chinatown herb shops as medicine smells like.  Like ginseng?  But really complex; like a few different things.  This is warm too, but as with the Viet Sun version it lacks the same intensity and depth of the Farmerleaf version.  Which is odd, because it has pretty good intensity, complexity, and depth.

I think the high buds input in the Farmerleaf version might be impacting the outcome.  Buds-only white teas can end up relatively flavorless (not always), but even those usually have great depth.  You never drink good Jin Jun Mei and feel disappointed by the lack of complexity, intensity, and depth.  Probably finer leaf material are covering one aspect range, and buds input another, and they overlap to balance really well.  Or maybe that's completely wrong.

I'll do one more round and drop taking notes.  These will transition a little over more infusions, but not enough to make it worth writing or reading about.

Farmerleaf (#3):  not really different, but then it was pretty good over the last couple of rounds.  Maybe I'm making it sound like that good balance and complexity really matches my personal preference more than it actually does.  I appreciate it, and like it, but again I'm a sheng drinker.  For whatever reason I really crave black tea experience as well, and can also appreciate oolong novelty and refinement.  I appreciate that this is so good, but I don't love it.  I think pretty much all shou drinkers would, maybe even across liking different styles, since this has a lot going on, and it's essentially all positive.

Viet Sun:  that atypical flavor complexity shifts just a little but it doesn't change.  This probably wasn't affected by an external flavor input (eg. something nearby in storage), because all types of external flavor inputs fade faster instead of just changing in form.  It didn't really taste off, or adjusted, I'm just clarifying that.  You can probably get any tea to taste like old furniture by storing it in an old furniture cabinet for a half dozen years.  Maybe that's actually not a bad idea.  This just includes unusual flavor range naturally.  

ITea World:  this still tops the others in terms of "aged taste."  Warm slate mineral works as a nice base, sweetness and thickness is fine, then lots of flavor complexity joins that, again in an old furniture and Chinese medicinal / root spice range.  

Drinking this on a winter day could seem magical, in a rustic cabin, maybe with some neutral flavored butter cookies, and snow falling outside.  In comparison with two other good shou versions on a hot day in Bangkok, at 12:30 now, not even in the morning, it's more about comparing strengths, what aspect ranges stand out.  Probably I'm losing something in missing the intensity of experience in sheng, turning up the volume in exposure, while these tea inputs add depth to the set of things you already experience.  That, and warm tones match with cold weather.

Conclusions:

All simple enough, the Farmerleaf version is a little better than the other two, the Viet Sun tea is solid and novel, and the ITea World represents aged shou well, giving up some complexity, depth, and novelty.  For people who haven't tried a lot of 20+ year old teas that part would've seemed more novel than it does to me.  It doesn't come up too often, but pretty regularly.

I really can't relate to anyone paying 40 cents a gram for shou, but if that part is fine the Farmerleaf version is worth it.  To me why even pay 20 cents per gram; decent factory shou might cost two thirds that, and that can be fine, since all shou is as close to the same thing as is true for any tea type (just how I see it; obviously shou drinkers probably don't agree).  Here is an example:

2022 Menghai "7572" Ripe Pu-erh Tea Cake  ($36 for 357 gram cake)

This probably was a little rough-edged for the first couple of years, and may not have fully settled yet.  In Yunnan Sourcing's words:

A classic recipe from Menghai. This is an average blend of 7th grade material that was fermented last year, so the cake does not have that just fermented taste, rather it has already mellowed a bit. Another 6 months to a year down the road and it will make even more improvements in taste and liquor clarity. When brewed this cake will taste a little sweet and lighter than the creamy 7262.

That "7th grade" relates to the material being chopped in form, as much as some general quality level.  All three of these teas surely are better than this, but from a "shou is shou" perspective not by much.  Farmerleaf's equivalent value-oriented entry, 2023 Bangwai Ripe, sells for $36 per cake; I'd probably buy that instead.  

William gave me these samples I'm trying from them on a visit here (many thanks for that), and after checking I have some of a 2023 Mengku version yet to try.  Since it lists for $60 per cake it represents another variation of a good-value theme, just not tea as inexpensive as Dayi versions.  Shou really does vary, from heavier flavored from being fully fermented, to being lighter, or even heavier on cacao range if a version includes more buds.  All three of these being pretty good, and relatively novel, might've made it seem like it's normal for above average shou to work out like that.  If a version is from a reliable source and the character is positive one can be nice, complex and well-balanced, but including a bit more rough edge than these did would be quite normal.

For this ITea World version representing the more ordinary range in an aged tea tasting set it held its own better than I expected compared to two interesting and positive shou examples.  It definitely showed off aged effect the others didn't, and some people would value that more than I probably seemed to.

On pu'er knives, and separating cakes and tuochas

 

One of the eternal questions:  do you really need to use a pu'er knife to separate compressed tea cakes, or can you use a letter opener, Swiss Army knife, ice pick, or whatever else is around?  And does the question change when discussing a well-compressed Xiaguan tuocha?

This recently came up in a Facebook tea group, but it gets asked in a Reddit pu'er sub several times a year.  I commented this:

A pu'er knife or pu'er pick can work slightly better than something like a letter opener, but there's definitely no need to spend $50 on something that looks more impressive. Inexpensive versions of the same devices will work in exactly the same way, and just as well. If your favorite vendor only sells something costly, because it's damascus steel or something such, just keep shopping. It probably makes sense to buy both an inexpensive pick and a knife, to see what you like best.

Others answered everything that you might imagine, every possible answer.  That reminds me of seeing a notice of a pu'er knife that actually looked cool recently, maybe not this one, but essentially the same thing:

That style is typically made by a blacksmith of some sort, either crafted from damascus (layered) steel or made from some novel original source, like from a railroad spike.  That would definitely work.  Those tend to cost about $70, which I guess may be about right given the labor that would go into making it.  This site sells them for $100, the first version that comes up on a Google Lens search about them, and in this Reddit post (showing that version) it had cost them $77.

I'd rather buy a tea cake, but that cake would be gone in a couple of months, and this novel knife could last forever.

Crimson Lotus sells this:  "The Bingslayer" Tea Pick  ($14.99)

The catchy marketing name works, and it should be functional.  It's funny how vendors spin all that:

May we present to you "The Bingslayer", First of their Name, Victorious at the Battle of Xiaguan, Breaker of the Iron Cake. Legend has it that this tea pick is so pure of heart that it doesn't open puerh cakes, the cakes open for it to allow it to pass through.

Setting that aside, $15 for a functional tea knife is fine.  Versions that cost $2 or 3 also work, probably just as well, like the one I've been using for a few years that a friend passed on, after I accidentally packed my tea pick in a carry-on bag, and the TSA got it (or actually the Thai equivalent).

my old pu'er pick; I really liked that too

I don't see any version of a knife or pick on either Yunnan Sourcing or White 2 Tea's sites.  Strange.  You would think they would find an inexpensive and functional version to sell as a service to customers, if not so much to profit from.

This Shopee version (like a Thai version of Ebay) sells for about $8; it's not far off what I use now:

Technique, the real problem

The problem people are really having relates to technique, not the form of the device they use.  That cause could get lost as they explore both devices and approach, because their technique would improve as they gradually kept swapping out devices, and the same devices would keep working better and better.  A pick works about as well as a knife, when you are good at using one.  I'll explain how to break apart a tea cake then, or at least how I go about it.

For the loosest pressed cakes it kind of doesn't matter.  You can pull a chunk off the side with your fingers and that won't break the leaves very much, which is the main concern.  More broken material will extract a lot more astringency, which isn't as pleasant.  For harder pressed cakes it works well to start from the inside lip of the pressed indentation (beeng-hole, some say), and work outwards towards the edge to peel off a good sized flake, maybe two inches across.  No matter how you approach it all you don't want to push the knife towards your other hand, so early on using a wood cutting board is ideal, so you stab that instead as you get better at it.  It could also work starting from the outside and working inward, I just don't prefer that myself.

For a very hard pressed cake this won't work very well, but then nothing really will.  It's an option to break such a cake into large sized chunks, probably using some variation of pliers, and then separating the layers by pressing a knife or pick into the side of the chunk.  The main idea is to work along the layers of how the cake or tuocha (ball shape) is pressed, and if you tear a chunk off a cake those layers will be evident.

For a tuocha holding the dome side downward and starting from the rim works well.  You can press the device into this lip, separating off a good sized chunk of the outside, again without pushing that knife towards your other hand, probably by resting the tuo on something that it's ok to stab into.  Typically you can peel off the outer one fourth of the entire tuo this way, piece by piece, and then keep going, working with the now-stranger-looking inner three fourths of the ball shape.

One last concern is what to do with the more broken dust and small fragments that can be by-products of this process, especially when separating tighter pressed cakes.  You have options.  Some people throw that out; it shouldn't amount to much, and it doesn't brew as well.  It could work to save it in a miscellaneous material jar and brew it separately, as a blend.  I like the idea but I almost never do that.  I put some in a tea-bag a year or two ago--from some spare bags a vendor sent along with loose tea--and saw that still stashed somewhere recently; when I actually do it I might not get back to it.  

Or you can let it collect in the paper wrapper and brew a round that's based on more broken material once in awhile, or a mix of finer broken material forms, broken leaves down to dust.  That's what I do.  

It throws off results that round, all to utilize a couple of extra grams of really broken material however often that comes up, but it seems disrespectful to the tea to just bin it, to me.  For looser pressed tea cakes this isn't even a concern; leaves might break a little, but it's not like how things go with harder pressed cakes.  I suppose this is why the "iron cake" form didn't last, as well as related to those not aging in the same way, being isolated from any and all air contact that might enable it in a normal form.

A 2011 mini Xiaguan iron cake, basically, last reviewed here in 2019.  I've tried this in the last 6 months and it's not quite ready yet, 14 years into aging.  In 5 more years I'll probably feel the same way.