Showing posts with label groups. Show all posts
Showing posts with label groups. Show all posts

Friday, July 12, 2024

AI content use in tea marketing; message discussion with AI

 

I haven't avoided this topic, but I don't have much to say to about it, so I've never mentioned it here.  People are clear on why AI text content and pictures are interesting and positive, and also what the down-sides are, that kids can use it to write their paper instead of them doing so, while learning to write, and that it displaces artists, or people creating marketing content, and so on.


A recent post in a main Facebook group, Gong Fu Cha, drew criticism for being AI generated.  It was this:


𝐘𝐢𝐱𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐏𝐮𝐫𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐒𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐓𝐞𝐚𝐩𝐨𝐭
宜兴紫砂壶
History
The Yixing purple sand teapot, also known as Zisha teapot, has a rich history that dates back to the Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD) in China. The clay used for these teapots comes from the region around Yixing in Jiangsu province. This area is renowned for its unique type of clay called "zisha" or "purple sand," which can also be red or green.
During the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), Yixing teapots gained significant popularity, and many skilled artisans emerged, elevating the craftsmanship to an art form. By the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912), Yixing teapots were widely regarded as essential items for tea connoisseurs.
Reasons to Use a Yixing Teapot
1. Porosity: The clay used in Yixing teapots is slightly porous, which allows the teapot to "breathe." This enhances the flavor and aroma of the tea over time, as the pot absorbs the essence of the tea brewed in it.
2. Heat Retention: Yixing clay has excellent heat retention properties, which helps maintain a consistent temperature during brewing, enhancing the extraction of flavors.
3. Patina: Over time, a patina develops on the inside of the teapot, further enhancing the taste of the tea. This makes each pot unique to its owner and the teas brewed within it.
4. Aesthetic Appeal: Yixing teapots are highly valued for their artistic and aesthetic qualities. Each pot is often handcrafted and can be an exquisite piece of art, reflecting the skill and creativity of the artisan.

The Yixing purple sand teapot is not just a vessel for brewing tea but a symbol of Chinese tea culture, artistry, and tradition. Its unique properties and the skill required to create them make Yixing teapots highly prized among tea enthusiasts and collectors worldwide.





It seems fine to me.  Or is it?  Is there a reason why a program writing this kind of content instead of a human discussing this background is problematic?  I'll get to all that.  Is the picture itself also AI generated?  Probably, but I can't tell for sure.  This one seems to be, from the next day:





Usually I have the next half a dozen points in mind, almost immediately mapped out, based on how I've arranged related ideas in the past.  Not this time.  It doesn't help that I don't care about clay teaware at all.  It's helpful for me to narrow tea related interest, to keep the scope manageable, and that has been a good dividing line.  

I own three clay pots for brewing tea, two of which I bought in Taiwan, and one of which my wife gave me from her father owning it, who hasn't been alive for the last 35 years.  I've not even fully seasoned the two that I bought about 6 years ago; I use gaiwans.  I know very little about clay teapots, and it works out better not to learn more.  Then someday I'll probably get to it.


Then the next picture relates to tea itself.  Someone mentioned in a comment that the tea cake looks like pu'er pudding, not the actual compressed tea.  Tea cakes don't really tend to look exactly like that; the material form and texture is ok but the shape isn't.  The text content is probably AI material too, for both.  So again, what is the problem?  Next bots could be coordinating this AI content generation and posting it themselves; how would that be a further problem?


It ties to another concern I've had recently about clearly fake group request profiles, that I tend to delete from the larger Facebook group I admin for (International Tea Talk).  Why has there been a wave of new, clearly fake profile requests?  Why were they not adjusted slightly to not be so obvious about not being actual people?  Probably within months those changes will occur; they'll update their process.  

They are easy to spot due to being created in the past two weeks or so, all with a single picture (which you have to click through to recognize, that the profile contains one picture), all based on background details that don't add up (from Ukraine, but living elsewhere, educated at Harvard, etc.).  Any one of those details is reasonable, but the sets don't seem to make sense together.

It all seems to add up to a problematic shift in how we are going to be experiencing social media, very soon.  Fake profiles will be much more common than they are now, and harder to spot, and they'll be able to create and post content that won't be as obvious as those two posts were.  

Someone posting one of those two mentioned that they prefer to use AI content to not steal random photos online from others, which works in one sense.  But that would be all the less easy to spot if content was presented as created by a person instead, as long as they managed where they farmed the content carefully.  Or not carefully at all, and the programs could just track which sources content had been taken from that were flagged and deleted later.  Of course if they steal from a main vendor, or use high-profile media content, or FB group post content, that's going to get noticed, but they wouldn't even need to use human intuition to filter that, they could just go by trial and error. 

The initial obvious problem isn't the main problem, that gradually AI will replace human specialist knowledge, and even interaction.  In the past low effort drop-shipping sort of vending startups were easy to spot, and they came and went fast.  It's not so much the form that is a problem, it's that you almost certainly would be buying tea from someone who knows very little about the subject, and is probably more concerned with streamlining and automated marketing (including content creation), ordering, and fulfilment process than with what they are selling.

Later on websites, sales portals, online background content, and interaction will all be much easier to generate relatively automatically.  We are already seeing more sophisticated vending materials that are obviously AI generated.  Later on it won't be as obvious.

It's the next step after that seems to be a concern.  The online interaction in relation to this automatically generated content will be supported by more sophisticated bots.  It's easy to spot now when online marketing posts are bolstered by positive comments from fake profiles.  The dots seem easy enough to connect, but they won't always be.  Later on an ad could lead someone to what seems to be developed content related to in-depth specialist exploration of tea, with online materials documenting a supportive and interactive customer base that reinforces how good that source really is.  And it all could be fake. 

Lets consider a rather unusual example case that relates to just how far this kind of thing could go.


Making friends with AI in social media


I think I recently discussed a range of different themes with a pilot program AI profile, earlier this year.  That's still only a high probability, because in some ways that "person" seemed real.  I suspect that's because input was being mixed from what was created by a human and then re-organized and managed by a program.

Maybe the context doesn't matter, but I can include that.  It was on Quora, a question and answer site that I had been more active in over the past, and still frequent.  I've created two Quora Spaces there, one about tea (Specialty Tea) and general cultural themes related to different national cultures (About Foreign Cultures), and have answered lots and lots of questions.  It seems as well to not flag the profile or add details that effectively do so, but the "shared interest" related to one of a dozen or so odd running themes I've written about here over the last year or two, but not tea.

I think I commented on something posted, then that "person" responded, then reached out about it through message, and we talked from there.  How would it not be obvious if it was really a person or not?  I think a lot of the starting point content was human generated, that initial discussion was created around what one would normally say about themselves, or respond to standard questions or starting points.  


Then there was a bit of limited continuity related to discussion flow; they didn't talk by messages as a person would, closely linking discussion themes.  This was explained away in terms of a contextual theme.  One of the first AI discussion programs, not so long ago, masked that the "person" was really a program by making them a teenager, which would explain away limited communication ability and inconsistency.  It was something like that, established as a base context early on, just not that.

It seemed like the mix of blending human created input with use and message functions by a program really worked.  It would be possible to have a person write out a number of responses or longer passages that tell a really compelling personal story, just a fictional one.  Written in the right way a number of content passages could have great depth, and really link together, then with most discussion content not holding up to that level.

It wouldn't even need to be fictional; there is no reason why I couldn't convert my own perspective, background, and life experiences into a relatable, convincing AI language model program, designed to discuss things with others.  It would help if I built in a relatively severe personal limitation, to mask inconsistencies and errors that would occur.  

It's not the one that probable-program I talked to used, but "coming clean" about experiencing mental health issues in the form of depression, anxiety, or manic episodes would work.  Then lapses in answering or discussing things consistently would be understandable.  The empathy of the person "it" talks to would kick in, and the person in discussion with it would be less likely to call out the program on not making complete sense, or forgetting things.

You could even have the program blame people when they repeated themes, for being repetitive, or forgetting points already made.  A little would go a long way with that; the more unpleasant a discussion experience would be the less likely it might be to continue.  This was actually an approach used in that discussion, cross-referencing repetition.


In my own case it would work to develop themes and discussion points related to my own interests, about running, or tea, and so on.  Getting a program to interact in the form of a normal conversation would be very difficult.  Chat GPT can mirror content creation very well now, but the flow of conversation is something else.  Any program model would be quite rough to begin with.  

How would you keep making adjustments to that?  You would create a profile on somewhere like Quora and practice.  Then you would watch out for when the function didn't work, I suppose especially related to when someone finally called you out on being a program.  After some discussion that "person" raised the issue of others accusing it / them of sounding like an AI, in kind of a cool twist, seemingly fishing for feedback.  

Or maybe it was a person, right?  Maybe the personal limitation they described makes them sound exactly like an AI, with the same kind of odd speech patterns, inconsistency, and range and discussion continuity limitations.

All of this is a lot more sophisticated than a bot posting about liking a tea would need to be, to create fake and misleading marketing content, identified as discussion instead of first-person product marketing.  But people are watching for that sort of thing already (and to a lesser extent moderation programs are); that's the problem flagged by these posts, in most of the comments responding.  Those people used AI generated images and some AI generated text content, essentially presented as what it was, and others immediately questioned if this was allowed under group rules.  

It's not prohibited in that group yet, as far as I know, because it just started appearing.  Then it's a bit scary that people are already populating these groups with hundreds if not thousands of fake members, profiles set up for some yet unknown purpose.  In the past it would've related to farming "likes," and it's probably partly that, but who knows what else is intended, or will become possible in the next year or two.


Another example; a scammer profile shows how far and fast this can develop


Someone just posted in a group related to Hawaii, where I live part of the time, asking a question, about surfing.  It looked odd, how they worded it, but their name, profile picture, and the question all looked pretty legit, until you looked deeper.  Then it was all clearly fake.  People commented that they were a scammer, but even before that I glanced at the profile to see why their comments seemed odd, worded unnaturally (which can just relate to someone using English as a second language).  I would assume the people flagging the account as a scammer related to getting direct messages, but that wasn't completely clear.

The pictures were of a Ukrainian model, with a very American name (along the line of Rose Smith, just not that).  One tell was the "person" being from California City, California.  That's a real place, with a population of 15,000, but foreigner scammers tend to mix things that make sense with what doesn't, like assuming that a city named after a state would be a conventional place to be from, without checking that it's really a very small town.  

Then even at a glance other parts of their profile didn't add up; an earlier feed post was about working as a runway model, and another related to being from Ukraine, both of which were not listed on the background.  The person was listed as a clothing designer at The Gap, linking to a Gap profile that had a few hundred likes, with one picture posted, so not "that" Gap.  A related website link was broken, pulling up a Chinese language notice that the site wasn't actively supported.

The rest is more about where I'm going with this; the profile was created in 2009, with those pictures uploaded in 2019 and 20.

Everyone already knows that there are a lot of fake accounts on all social media platforms, there to be used for farming likes, purchasing followers or friends, or for whatever other purposes.  For one to be that old it seems likely that the people using it, probably scammers, hacked into either an old and inactive account or took over an active one, which someone then gave up on using.  Posting stolen content years in advance related to laying a foundation for using the accounts.  They probably have hundreds set aside for such use, so they can initiate all sorts of related discussions and schemes, and then lose nothing when Facebook moderation shuts them down.

So far that's all pretty standard stuff.  When we see marketing content draw enthusiastic feedback from lots of profiles it looks like that's what this is, when people comment on how great a product looks, or they post linked mentions to notify their "friends" about it.

Once AI gets a little more sophisticated this will open up brand new forms of "sock puppeting," using secondary, alternate profiles to support points made in posts.  It seems so dodgy that it's hard to imagine tea vendors using this approach.  If someone is selling some odd drop-shipped product maybe they would go this route, paying for bot profiles to post lots discussion feedback and testimonials about how an off-brand shoe design or pair of pants is so unique and groundbreaking.  But for tea?  We aren't there yet.

I have tried teas from sources that seem to make a start towards that though, from people who know nothing about tea, using cut-and-pasted website marketing content, selling very moderate quality product versions, positioned somewhat randomly in relation to what the tea really is.  Once all that gets pushed a couple of steps forward the sites will be much cleaner, the text and image content much better, and packaging and vending forms more developed.  From day one it could include ample testimonial input, all made up, with social media posts populated with feedback from many satisfied customers.  

Bots could become much more adept at working backwards to navigate group rules; it wouldn't take much development for them to be better at that than most vendors now are.  You would think that a Darjeeling producer could write about issues or background related to Darjeeling, to post that as discussion, only implying that they can also sell related teas, but it's not like that now.  It's starting to be, but AI based bots could become better at that game than people in no time, maybe by the end of this year.


Luckily people aren't completely redundant, yet; we still need to function as consumers.  The bots can't develop their own financial resources and consumption demand requirements, or take personal satisfaction in online exchanges.  Once they do people will finally become obsolete.


Wednesday, January 19, 2022

Tea Themed New Year's Resolutions

First published in TChing here.

My own goals related to tea tend to stay the same year to year, if a bit general:  to experience something new.  Not so much related to new types, since I've mostly set aside broad exploration, and try whatever I happen to try, or pushing on to higher quality or more distinct examples of already familiar types, but just new to me in some sense.


sheng "pu'er" from India (from Ketlee), a novel tea I tried last year


For the past two years that has related to a long exploration of online video meeting contact, originating with a few random sessions in early 2020.  That was based around a core group of friends meeting, moving on to more involved sessions with subject experts in 2021.  It wasn't so far off a podcast theme, just not recorded or broadcast.  Prior to that, in 2019, I was messing around with tasting themes instead, and sometime around then I put focus on starting a Quora Space (Specialty Tea).  It's a decent reference now, and I keep writing there.  




This will be about how other types of resolutions might work out, based mostly on talking to a lot of people newer to the subject in lots of online groups, returning back to what I might do that's different.


Drink better tea:  the obvious direction, which could be taken lots of ways.  Anyone drinking tea bag tea might move on to loose leaf, and people still on Harney and Sons blends range--which is fine--could explore better single input teas.  It's easy to sort out how to try better versions of what you already like, but it can take time and effort to get input for leads on better sources.  One approach towards that is to explore social media outlets related to tea, to hear about what's out there, and sourcing suggestions and so on.  This general intro post might help.


Connect with others with a similar interest:  to many this would seem a stretch; why go there?  Some reasons:  to experience in-person tasting sessions, to learn about types and teaware, or to exchange teas.  Or it could just be that identifying with a subject seems odd when you don't know anyone else who does, and it sounds interesting to resolve that through online contact.  

The starting point for this is level of tea interest.  It is actually possible to discuss tea themes with people who are still on flavored tea bag or grocery store tin versions, which to many tea enthusiasts is only an early starting point, naturally leading to more in-depth exploration.  The Facebook Tea Drinkers group or main Reddit r/tea sub-forum focus on that level.  The Gong Fu Cha group is an example at the other extreme.  Discord servers are interesting for using a form similar to old chat boards, and for being populated by really young people, for the most part, and they tend to fall in the middle related to prior exposure.


Drink more diverse tea, at limited cost (improve value):  it's funny how tea enthusiasts tend to split into two sets, with one seemingly not concerned with cost much at all, seeing spending $20 on 50 grams of tea as no big deal, since that would brew quite a bit of tea (a couple of dozen cups, maybe).  For the other set and perspective parting with $20 seems like a significant expense, regardless of volume being considered, so moving beyond what is in grocery store shelves is problematic.  

I can relate to wanting to find a balance in the middle, for working with a very limited tea budget, but still wanting to try a range of teas.  That tends to involve ordering some tea in batches, with expense between $50 and 100 per set kind of normal, or more later, as quality expectations change.

In the past ordering through a general vendor that sells medium quality tea would be a good intro point, one like Adagio.  Unfortunately their marketing theme has shifted, enabling them to move on to selling a broader range of blends and to ramp up pricing, so that for the same cost you could actually buy better tea from other types of vendors.  Chinatown shops are a good way to get to a middle ground, providing access to tins or loose versions of modest quality teas at low cost, examples that are still much more diverse and better than specialty grocery stores would tend to carry.  

Now ordering through a foreign based vendor works best for this general goal, one like Hatvala (for Vietnamese teas), or Chawang Shop (for Yunnan origin Chinese versions).  Yunnan Sourcing is not so far off that theme, a kind of broad outlet selling a large range, but any vendor carrying 1000 versions of tea puts workload on a customer to try and sort it all out.  You don't need to understand what those 1000 teas are but you do need to somehow put a dozen or less in an online cart.


Improve brewing skill and range:  this one is easy, since buying a gaiwan is half the resolution, and practicing to use it most of the other half.  Gongfu brewing, the related approach of using a higher proportion of tea to water and many short infusions, really only works better for some tea types:  sheng pu'er, high quality whole leaf black tea, twisted style oolongs, and to a lesser extent rolled oolongs.  For broken leaf black tea or green tea a Western approach is more or less the same, and shu pu'er gives pretty good results made in lots of ways.  Results related to white tea vary by type and preference.  

It's too much to go into what Gongfu brewing is but a recent Quora answer about how to brew oolongs covers the basics, with lots of guides out there covering a more step by step explanation (just search Gong Fu tea in Youtube to watch a few).


Get family and friends into tea:  good luck!  Don't expect this to work in most cases, but it is cool when it clicks a little for the right person trying the right tea.  There really is something special about a tea party, regardless of what you choose to do with form, or how much the guests love the drink.  

There's no need to cut that off related to what you like most, or tend to drink.  If you can't give children "real tea" due to a concern over caffeine the same theme can work using chrysanthemum, and the kids will love the form.  If you don't have children, or nieces and nephews, that's probably a stretch, but hopefully there are people in your life who can still tap into that exploration range to get the most out of a related form.  A lot of people's moms would love it.  

Try including different snacks, or set it up outdoors, or maybe just do it all on your own, and treat yourself to the same theme without needing others to share it.  If you think that you really should have a ceramic teapot or some range of interesting cups that's a great prompt to check out a local thrift shop, and give new life to tea equipment that someone else needed to pass on.  The "matching set" theme isn't a necessary part of it, as I see it, but individual judgment and style would factor in related to that.

More formal types tasting is something else; for someone on that page the options really span a lot of range.  I've held tastings in a park and a zoo before and the results were pretty nice.  In one other context tasting a guest tried a Chinese black tea and commented that they never knew that they liked black tea until that moment; that can be really special for a guest and the host.


My 2022 new direction:  not identified yet.  If anyone has ideas or leads on directions to chase feel free to comment wherever you see this, or look me up to talk, maybe easiest through my blog's Facebook page.  I've long since thought that broad tea awareness and culture development won't take a next step until it finds its way into mainstream media communication, but I explored that direction and didn't get far years ago.  

A podcast theme would probably work but I don't feel motivated to do that; it's already being done.  Last year that meetup discussion theme included 20 or so interesting and influential tea producers and vendors, from a dozen or so different countries; it might work to extend those introductions and background theme coverage to a networking scope.  The last talk we held covered tea processing details based on input from producers who are exploring new directions from the US, India, Laos, Georgia (the country), and Nepal.  It frees up potential direction in that I don't really need to focus on my own personal gain; that discussion was about them sharing ideas for their own interest and benefit.




A simple resolution might be better than all that:  to relax and enjoy the quiet once more frequently while having tea, just putting the phone down and being in that moment.  I'll try that.

Tuesday, October 12, 2021

Subculture synchronization through social media group input


This is something different, not really related to a tea blog, but I'll share it in mine, in case it's of interest.  A good number of ideas I’ve been considering seem to align, in relation to running across the subject of synchronization, and comparing it to cultural expression and perspective.  This runs long covering that, really as much about me using writing to collect and arrange the ideas.

In the most ordinary sense synchronization is about complex systems including or developing mechanisms for aligning timing (described here).  If you set two metronomes (pendulum based clocks) beside each other in such a way that they can alter their base position (hanging from something, on a shifting platform, etc.) they will naturally align, by passing on physical stimulus between each. A footbridge in England worked as a different example, not related to people walking in lockstep, necessarily, but along a similar line, creating a problem that designers did not account for, with reinforced synchronized walking all but destroying the bridge. 

This is all about something else, but it seems to be related.  Spontaneous synchronization in physical or natural phenomena is about this, which I won't be getting into:


Spontaneous synchronization is a remarkable collective effect observed in nature, whereby a population of oscillating units, which have diverse natural frequencies and are in weak interaction with one another, evolves to spontaneously exhibit collective oscillations at a common frequency.


Instead I'll discuss this: 

Online social groups and divided sub-cultures tend to align perspectives, faster than ever now due to the effect of social media.  It’s not just about groups filtering existing perspective; it seems to function as a feedback loop too.

 

In a sense that’s what sub-culture is, alignment of interests, perspectives, preferences, and values.  Self-definition and image are a part of that.  In what follows I’ll cover a number of examples of how I see this playing out in a broad range of different sub-cultures.  I think it’s informative, in relation to making sense of patterns that are obvious in one sense but not so transparent in relation to root causes.

I’ll start by mentioning factors that seem to cause this, acting like the limited input feedback loop of pendulums adding force to each other, or the influence individual steps accumulating on a footbridge.

 

Inputs / factors

 

-online groups form around shared interest or perspective, or serve a positive educational function

-social media channels filter feeds in ways that over-emphasizing controversy, negativity, or exclusion

-filtering in online groups limits opposing views, narrowing range of shared perspective, even adjusting standard perspectives

-social media “influencers” or subject experts condense or lead perspectives (affected by the rest)

-interest group oriented media channel bias reinforces marginal perspectives

-any of these factors can set up feedback loops, as a continual and progressive input

 

All of these factors set up feedback loops that continually support increasing uptake of divisions, and extremist perspectives, derived from within a more normal range.  It happens across a broad range of perspectives, across a lot of issues.  Often it would be a positive thing, mostly about learning.  In some interesting ways gradual shifts in perspective and self-identification can occur, so that even the “normal range” fragments and shifts.

Related to the social media channel issue, recent news covers how Facebook utilizes negative themes to increase engagement (from “Facebook whistleblower revealed on '60 Minutes,' says the company prioritized profit over public good”):

 

"One of the consequences of how Facebook is picking out that content today is that it is optimizing for content that gets engagement, a reaction, but its own research is showing that content that is hateful, that is divisive, that is polarizing, it's easier to inspire people to anger than it is to other emotions," she said. She added that the company recognizes that "if they change the algorithm to be safer, people will spend less time on the site, they'll click on less ads, they'll make less money."

 

Why wouldn’t they, I guess. Let’s get the most obvious example of that problematic divisive content out of the way, or at least introduced:  the US is currently quite polarized in terms of conservative versus liberal perspective.  This sort of works as an example, although specific use of the term “synchronization” here informs the deeper level intention, that I’m trying to describe a pattern of change, made up of small inputs. 

That political divide evolved naturally, and extended into what is often described as a “culture war,” a mapping of lots of sets of ideas and perspectives into two distinct versions.  Along the way a lot of people and companies benefitted from emphasizing it.  Maybe it’s as well to treat the base context further and get back to how this seems to play out in that political divide, related to saying more about those factors.

 

Synchronization related to online social groups

Synchronization can be used as a model for looking at patterns, not necessarily as only one type of sequence of processes that adjusts alignment.  Of course people divide into groups, based on shared preferences and opinions; saying that really isn’t saying anything.  The model has to do more, to explain more, or else there’s no point to applying it.

 

I’m trying to establish that subtle mechanisms can cause a specific form of evolution of preferences and opinions, as feedback and adjustment, not just functioning as a sorting and grouping mechanism.  People entering into perspective lockstep with others can have the unintended consequence of enabling a new form of perspective shift pattern, that can progress faster and further. 

 

It’s not that the conservative and liberal American right and left already existed and were already positioned against each other (although that is true), or that positions on a limited set of issues caused the divide. This synchronization effect broadened and further re-defined the split.  Let’s start with a simpler example than politics, and then see how the same influence patterns can occur more broadly.

 

I’m into tea, and we see this effect play out in online social groups related to tea.  Group themes kind of evolve on their own, although a group founder or founders will often have a lot of that in mind in setting up new groups.  A group might be open, for example, intended as applying to everyone with a broad interest range, or to a sub-set.  Using tea as an example a group could have a focus on people discussing their discovery of interest in tea, and starting points (for people newer to it), or for advance practitioners to discuss more evolved preferences. 

It seems odd putting it that way, describing people making a beverage choice as “practitioners,” but as with many subjects tea interest and forms of experience become more complex as one explores further.  Then to some extent that complexity tends to even out and shift back to embracing more simplicity later on, but the rest of this doesn’t do a lot with that last part, about patterns of progression of types of interest changing over time, across varying forms, onto a natural endpoint.  A very extreme and developed form of preference and perspective can occur before that happens, and it can be accepted as a group norm, as not out of the ordinary at all.

Shared perspective of any subject is discussed in social media groups, and other types of groups.  People find such groups and join in from whatever perspective or position of topic interest they happen to already experience.  Although tea makes for a strange example it might work better for being odd (versus a sports team or university alumni group, for example).  It wouldn’t be so different for lots of themes, like running, weightlifting, cooking, or even interest in other subjects, like philosophy, religion, or mental health topics.  Touching on these different subjects will help show what I mean about identification patterns and forms of evolution of perspective.  It’s tempting to explain why my own interest scope is so broad, but maybe as well to get to that bit by bit.  I’ve led a long and complicated life, and have waste a lot of time online.

But why discuss tea at all?  People can self-identify through such interests. 

Then it could also be about finding out about other options, when chance contact brings up a subject.  But as I take it by the time much contact occurs at all it’s really about self-identification, and to some extent that has to pre-exist to prompt someone to look up a group through a Facebook search function, or however else.

Still on tea interest, perspective grouping most typically works out along the line of those two extremes.  On the one hand in groups formed mostly by people newer to the subject shared interest is about exploring what grocery store shelves carry, maybe moving on to discussing brewing loose tea versus using tea bags, or showing off mugs and teacups.  There might be some debate over whether loose tea is really better, or over sub-themes like flavored teas versus more plain versions.  But everyone could be on a similar enough page, beyond someone wanting to discuss relatively plain tea-bag tea, and someone else more into flavored blends.  It’s harder for extremism to creep into a group defined in relation to a starting point perspective; developing into different interest range would bump someone into the other kind of grouping.

On the other extreme tea interest really is about experience-developed preferences and self-identification.  Ceremonial forms of brewing can enter in, or meditation themes, or collecting expensive teaware that serves an artwork function.  Even limiting scope to just the tea can cover a broad range, related to types, quality levels, brewing approach, learning background, etc.  I’ve written 675 posts in a blog about tea, Tea in the Ancient World, just with some of those on other subjects, writing about random themes.  More than half are probably reviews, and since the blog posts often compare teas probably around 500 versions are mentioned.  No wonder the subject has got a bit old. 

Self-identification can relate to claiming a knowledge-related status, or mastering a certain sub-culture form.  Eventually one would tend to reach an end-point related to these themes too, and keep shifting to business interest, or let active exploration drop, but those steps could take awhile.  Prior to that one might assume a role as a respected senior member in a tea community, regardless of age, more based on status.

 

Self-identification, filtering, and reinforced perspective shift

In groups this self-identification plays out in different ways.  This is really at the functional core of the broader point I’m trying to make here, more than about how filtering for specific interests works out.  Online contact lets people connect with others with similar interests, and through such connection those interest forms evolve.  I don’t mean that inputs like blogging or video content is mostly driving that, or other “influencers” or experts, or discussion input, it’s all that together, and a lot more.  It turns into a subculture, and subcultures tend to evolve, and have a life-span.

It’s fascinating how organic that process is.  Discussion is one main driver, and subject expert input is another.  Reinforcement of shared perspectives plays a big role.

A narrowing or member pruning effect is a very important mechanism in groups.  That’s not achieved mainly through formal group moderation, or clearly expressed limits, but instead through self-selection.  Often moderation can also play a significant role, with a defined group tone or perspective being actively enforced by admin / moderator control.  But beyond that people come and go, and groups evolve, with negative feedback playing a role in that.  Groups of all kinds also tend to not stay popular, or keep to a tight theme; it all shifts naturally over time.

Perspective shift reinforcement occurs through many small steps, like the pendulum clocks synchronizing timing, or individual steps on a bridge adding up.  Every group comment is met with positive reaction (likes, positive comment reaction) or negativity (open rejection, “downvoting,” or varying forms of correction).  This leads to a stream of shared perspective, partly related to pruning, and also tied to positive reinforcement.

I first noticed the natural trend of group member transition related to IT (information technology) service management groups shifting in popularity, from one location to another.  That core group of subject experts was small enough that it was easy to spot which online location was trendy; it was where those experts were posting.  The same happens for tea, but to a more limited extent.  For a lot of other subjects participation is so broad that it’s not at all like that, for example related to sports interests like running.  There surely are well-regarded athletes and subject experts related to that subject, but Facebook or Reddit groups would typically have nothing to do with drawing on that.  Group experts would be “local.”

Plenty of prior experiences have related to those “pruning” and group evolution functions.  I left a Reddit running group that I wasn’t allowed to post to because I wasn’t approaching running in a way that shared their perspective.  The short version is that I don’t use a fitness tracking watch and application, I just run, experimenting a little with different format approaches.  Removing posts is more a Reddit theme; in Facebook negative discussion feedback would cover a roughly equivalent function.  I’m not sure if people insulting each other on Twitter also works as an example or if that’s just part of the broader culture there, a normal interaction form.

Group or platform algorithms reinforce the positive and negative feedback loop effects.  Facebook shows you more of what you liked in the past, and Reddit subgroup filtering downvotes some posts to oblivion or mostly shows others that are upvoted.  On the surface this is going to collect together existing views and preferences, but to some extent it would also adjust and shape those.

 

Evolving interest forms and perspective

So far I’ve framed these groups as filtering members by perspective and approach, and serving an awareness function.  That’s it, but form of interest and understanding can evolve quite a bit in relation to this established shared perspective.  Social media group forms set up a perfect context for that.  People are always going to put their own spin or take on any subject (liking the teas that they like, or varying running training), but “better practice” forms emerge, potentially framed within a narrow range.  Running without tracking biometric stats can be seen as primitive or ineffective, or brewing tea “Western style” versus Gongfu style can seem more or less wrong.  Or just liking green tea can, versus oolong and sheng pu’er, far more typical type-preference endpoints.  It’s taboo in many tea groups to even mention tea bags.

This filtering / shared preference selection seems harmless enough in these examples, and that’s generally how I see it too.  It’s only odd in these examples, not negative.  In some other groups patterns can typically show up that are far less positive.  Philosophy groups tend to evolve towards less and less traditionally grounded or academically based themes, for example, to shift from considering what Kant and Nietzsche really meant in relation to ordinary perspective onto topics that are really about politics, New Age concerns, or popular takes on spirituality and such.  They naturally degrade, per one way of framing those transitions.  I don’t see that as an example of sub-culture evolution, so I’ll set that kind of concern aside, about problems in conversation tone or scope development potentially derailing shared interest group participation. I see it more as the opposite instead; a failure for a well-defined or narrow group sub-culture to “take.”

Those runners probably really are advancing, in practice (training) and related to discussion scope.  Tea enthusiasts too; what works well gets discussed, maybe just shifting a bit far onto evolved preference, until contact with anything like “basics” can get lost.  That could evolve to a different kind of natural endpoint for the discussion range, not because it degrades, but because it runs some form of natural course.  Eventually people usually just drink tea, and stop talking about it.  Sets of active group members form and later become inactive together, and the cycle repeats with new members or the channel goes dead.

It would take a controversial example to highlight how all this could go very badly, and how unconventional and negative perspective range could develop from this.  I barely even need to bring up politics as a potential example.  Somehow conservative thinking led to people reject vaccine and mask use during a pandemic, in the same country where nearly 700,000 people have now died (688k covid deaths in the US, according to Google’s dashboard, as I write this first draft, but over 700k soon after during editing).  There are equivalent problems on the liberal side, about gender re-definition, political correctness, and fairness related to race and history being extended too far.  This kind of transition pattern enabled a sub-group of people to reject that the Earth is spherical in shape, something people have been clear on for over 2000 years.

 

It’s all partly the “echo chamber” idea; as range of discussion narrows and shifts are reinforced potential for continually progressive error increases. 

 

It’s not just the “echo chamber” effect, in relation to reinforcing existing beliefs, since it can also easily lead to gradual evolution of those.  Almost all hardcore conspiracy theorists thought the earth was round not that ago, and that “prepper” theme, about readying for the end of the world, came on pretty fast.  Some examples of men’s rights and extremist feminist groups probably relate to this negative potential, extending real concerns and experience-grounded personal perspective in relatively “toxic” directions, in both those instances to broad hatred for almost an entire gender.  Gun interest groups can move on from discussing purchase options and features to tactics used military operations, and then to applied domestic terrorism.  It was a strange early anomaly how “prepper” groups included people preparing for completely different forms of Armageddon, which could’ve turned into a stable perspective form, with everyone sure it would all end soon, just under different circumstances.

It’s not just about these extreme and negative examples, or filtering narrowing specialized groups further and further, as in the running and tea examples.  Any somewhat active and cohesive group could reinforce some degree of perspective shift. 

Expat (foreigner resident) groups tend to filter people into two sets, as those new to an area, with regular visitors included, and then also long term residents.  Among the second group one part integrates positively, and could continue to discuss exploration and participation in cultural forms, and the other has more negative experiences, and discusses problems and limitations in the host culture.  

The more positive set is generally less vocal, since there is less to say about participating in a myriad of routine or special-event local activities, you just do that, while the complaining about negative patterns and problems seems more sustainable as a discussion form, as commiserating.  In the end you really get positive groups for people newer to the experience and negative ones tied to longer term exposure, with the opposites (people put off by short-term experiences and positive about extended exposure) not being as active.  A tourist who had a single bad experience might discuss that with the bar-stool alcoholic online crowd, but those people would’ve typically moved on to experiencing failed marriages and businesses.

 

Sub-groups and mental health perspective

Another subject I’ve been looking into adds a lot of potential for shift in individual perspective, related to considering dissociative identity disorder (DID), previously known as multiple personality disorder.  In a sense it’s not a great example, because it doesn’t lend itself to the same degree of “spectrum” effect that conditions like ADHD, autism, and depression and anxiety tend to (or at least it seems not to; in practice that’s not quite as clear).  For many of those on the less extreme part of the experience spectrum, for the other conditions, the average person would have some experience of some of the same traits, or maybe many of them.  We all feel some degree of anxiety and mood changes. 

As people discuss and learn about mental health subjects in related groups the effect would have to be very different from that of learning about tea, and changing brewing approach and such.  If someone is trying to learn about a completely abstract subject, as I’ve approached learning about DID, maybe not; it doesn’t connect to my own internal experience.  But for subjects like anxiety and depression, with people exploring those naturally experiencing some degree of them, it would probably be different, and hopefully positive inputs to causes of experiences could adjoin learning, with treatment being necessary as a primary form of resolution in more pronounced cases. 

I’m certainly not claiming that people would tend to over-diagnose their mental health experience, or conditions, based on hearing of others’ experiences.  If anything a more grounded, informed, and accurate view of what they already experience should really emerge instead, with better decision making about treatment options and requirements.  But a feedback loop of changing those experienced initial conditions would seem likely, and it would be hard for me to guess if that form would typically be positive or negative, if the change would actually tend to be helpful or not, or would most often lead to positive life choices.  Mental health issues can tend to seem black and white, and an example from my own life can fill in what a grey area can look like.

 

I just asked my son and daughter if they ever heard voices that seem external to them, as not part of their normal internal thoughts, and my son said yes, in some cases internal voices seem to be external, or at least separate from his own main thoughts or opinion.  It turns out that as many as 10% of everyone might experience some degree of “hearing voices” in such a way (with internal or external form being a real factor, but with interpretation coming into play related to that).  Those occurrence  percentage numbers shift a lot, depending on what source someone cites from, and the intended meaning (/ inclusion scoping).  On the one side that could just relate to varying interpretation of a normal internal dialogue (maybe his case, or maybe not).  Of course now I’m talking about schizophrenia, more or less, not the experience of distinct and separate internal personalities, the DID case.  It seems possible that maybe a division could blur, even though that’s definitely not the conventional take.

DID is especially interesting because it manifests first as a hidden condition, in almost all references or discussion of it.  It might seem a little counter-intuitive but people experience multiple personalities while they are not aware of this form of experience.  I’ll largely set aside that some people pretend to have conditions that they don’t, or exaggerate forms of their own experience to fit into a more interesting and extreme paradigm.  Maybe that is a basis for a lot of online discussion, those false cases, or maybe a very rare occurrence.  Either way it seems necessary to not overthink or over-interpret that part, since there would be no way of knowing who is being honest or accurately evaluating which experiences.

Just a bit off topic, I suspect that mental health issues seem a lot more common right now than in the past (even 10 years ago) for a number of reasons.  One is that stigma may be lifting; people feel free to discuss more real cases.  If anything that might be overcorrecting, back to the theme of it being popular to have certain conditions, leading to the problem I just covered.  Real internal awareness probably increases too, better diagnosis, treatment, and general awareness, in a positive sense.

An online contact raised an interesting additional point, that what “counts” as a mental health condition may have shifted too.  This contact has considerable experience with mental health issues, with his own, and in knowledge of care practices. To be clear this isn’t framed as expert opinion and final judgment on mental health care practice in general, just as food for thought.  Per his input what was considered a problematic mental health condition in the past was truly debilitating, with more borderline cases regarded as normal / conventional experience.  Then over time that shifted, and a much broader range of people were diagnosed and treated for less severe problems, less impactful variations of the same conditions.  He even connected that framed as a standard deviation range, which applies percentages to that summary, but it seems as well to stop short of conveying that here.

There could be a positive and negative side to this trend of expanding definition of mental health disorder ranges (assuming that it is accurate, which isn’t put forth as a given here).  People with relatively mild depression or anxiety could still benefit from treatment, prior to those having a lot of impact on their life, and progressing to worsen.  If approaches could function in a preventative form, and relate to other scope than drug based treatment, early / less-severe case treatment would seem like a relatively universally good thing.  For example, if someone experiencing very mild depression or anxiety takes up moderate exercise, or can use meditation practices to counter those experiences, that seems like a relatively positive outcome, much more positive than them just “toughing it out.”  Putting half of everyone on “psych meds” seems like a different thing, and a potential problem.  But why shouldn’t my son undergo psychological counseling, just in case?  He probably won’t, but we will definitely closely monitor that issue.

I’m reminded of a friend—an ex-girlfriend, really--moving to Los Angeles to try to become an actress, and experiencing anxiety related to that life change, which was severe in scope (the change, at least, and maybe the resulting anxiety too).  Maybe she needed the psych-meds treatment she was put on after consulting a doctor there; I don’t know.  It was the first I’d even heard of such a thing, back in the 90s.  Her take, after some experience, was that the side effects of the drugs weren’t worth the positive outcome, which diminished in effectiveness over time, so she quit them.  But then maybe they had already played a critical positive role in a problematic phase of her life, whether she knew it or not.  She thought not, that doctors just prescribed those to do something, and to sell medicine, but that in her case it probably wasn’t essential.  Who knows?

How does this connect with synchronization of perspective, one might wonder?  Another example fills that in.

I’ve recently ran across a blogger post with someone explaining how they couldn’t get one of their children diagnosed properly for conditions that they talked about but didn’t clearly define.  From their description the children sounded healthy and normal, maybe one less so than the other (which I won’t cite in reference form here; it doesn’t add much, and implies a degree of negative judgment I really don’t intend).  It seemed to amount to a claim that both of the two children might experience ADHD, anxiety, and some degree of autism, with only one being diagnosed with some part of that, but it stopped short of adding full details.  That parent wanted them both to be diagnosed and treated, but mental health professional review found one to not suffer from any of these disorders, to their disappointment.  If that mental health professional input was that the child was healthy, why would a parent “want” the second child to suffer from these conditions?  It probably wasn’t that.

My guess (only offered as such here) is that repetitive exposure to online discussion of these conditions led them to interpret both their kids as experiencing this set of conditions, based in one instance on normal range aspects / symptoms of life experience, which also overlap as symptoms of more extreme cases and conditions.  For example, my daughter sometimes sucks her thumb, at age 7, which could be an indicator that she is on the autism spectrum (as a “stim,” a self-comforting action).  To be clear we don’t think she is even “on the spectrum;” she is just slow to lose that habit.  If the parent suspects that their children are suffering from conditions then of course they would want assistance in resolving that.  Then it could be a short step from media and online discussion exposure of such input to expecting it, based on incorrect evaluation, or even on to rejecting a psychological health care professional’s evaluation, which is where they seemed to be.

Of course there are a range of other possible interpretations of this case, or possible facts of the matter, actual real status.  Maybe the parent wanted the kids in special programs to receive forms of assistance, for self-serving purposes, whether or not they had experienced such disorders.  I doubt that, but it’s possible.  Maybe the parent is a better judge of mental health issues than a trained medical professional, but again I also doubt that.  Most likely the expectation came from real life or social media based exposure to ideas and incorrect evaluation, which had to be informed by personal experience and online source material or discussion.  The “spectrum” idea probably played a large role in this, and the parent just wasn’t comfortable with the typical—or at least individual judgement based—cutoff point. It seems at least possible that the mother didn’t “get the diagnosis that she wanted” for herself either, for something related or different, and that some degree of projection of that was involved. 

Over and over in mental health discussion groups this theme re-occurs, not just of self-diagnosis and interpretation, but of second-guessing medical subject expert input.  A main subtheme is the feeling of validation and reward from acquired recognition (diagnosis), as official entry into that sub-group, or rejection from not receiving that.  It seems like an odd cycle.  Group discussion members use diagnosis status as a way to filter group members, to narrow inclusion of false claims, which is probably mostly positive and functional.  But this also seems to evolve to serve a topic interest gateway purpose, as an informal indicator of full membership. 

If that parent had multiple confirmations that both kids suffered from no mental health issues then she would’ve needed to accept that life is just normally as she and her kids experienced it, inherently problematic, with no extra group there to support her form of day to day difficulties.  The spectrum idea complicates things, in this case, and in general.  It seems quite possible that the diagnosis for one or both kids would have been different 20 years ago, and might shift—based on the exact same circumstances—in another decade.

 

Varying social input effect by subject

These effects vary by subject.  It’s interesting jumping from random topic to topic, learning about subjects instead of following fiction as entertainment, and seeing these themes play out.  In many of my own examples it has nothing to do with actual current experience, as with those mental health issues.  I lifted weights when I was younger, more than 25 years ago now, and more recently it has been interesting learning about body related functions by checking on steroid use themes through Youtube videos, almost entirely related to bodybuilding.  Testosterone and human growth hormone—both normal internal body process regulators—double as drugs used for building crazy levels of muscle mass, and also for offsetting the effects of aging, I’m just not even considering using them for that.  It’s also interesting learning background on what my kids experience, in physically growing.

Then over time shared perspective on bodybuilding steroid use changes.  Over the last 5 years a lot of well-known bodybuilders have died; that has driven the main perspective changes.  This kind of theme extends personal awareness and perspective well into everyday life experience and choices; people out there are putting drugs in their bodies based on current conventional understanding, and a small percentage of them die from doing that. 

What I find most interesting doesn’t really relate to those higher risk use cases, it’s about how the human body functions normally.  But tying back to the sub-culture synchronization issue lots of people would take it the other way, and make week to week choices about drug use based on this input.  They probably focus more on scandals and deaths than the practical advice, given the context for what draws the most attention I’ve already described.

To be a bit clearer there are a set of 10 or less main Youtube influencers who define this specific subject realm (weightlifting / bodybuilding, in relation to health and drug use).  In many cases those subject specialists align in sets, sharing follower bases by doing cross-over videos together.  There is a lot of potential for a narrow group of ideas to be shared very broadly as a result, which is most often a positive thing, related to sharing valid warnings about unsafe practices, but I suppose the opposite could also occur.  Interesting scope omissions seem to occur; none of those people tend to ever acknowledge that liposuction even occurs (cosmetic surgery, versus work-out approaches and PED drug use), because there is no benefit for them in covering that topic; it’s off their central message.  Even a single sports injury by a high profile “influencer” figure can cascade into a lot of related discussion, and can bump a large base of follower perspective about related risk factors.

There being so many groups covering so much scope is hard to place.  No matter what tangent or interest one pursues there are groups and references out there about that.  It seems possible that in every single case the members experience some degree of perspective shift that goes along with a learning curve, maybe leading to more balanced, informed, functional perspective, or maybe the opposite tends to mix in, biases that are more negative.

 

It’s tempting to conclude that this is a potentially bad thing, the evolution of lots of small interest groups, enabling rapid shifts in perspective.  “Small” here is relative; I’ve personally co-founded a Facebook group about tea that currently has 22,000 members, and collected Quora answers in a Specialty Tea Space that has 7400 followers.

The runners and tea drinkers I kept talking about aren’t really hurting anyone, beyond maybe slighting other runners and tea drinkers now and again, for not being on their level.  It all feels a bit unstable though.  A lot of “cult of personality” forms of this influence seem negative, when people manipulate these patterns to elevate themselves, often to sell whatever they are selling to others.  In the form of a conventional ad that’s easy to spot, but other “thought leader” or celebrity roles are something else. 

Back to the steroid theme a very popular figure, Rich Piana, talked openly about risks and benefits of steroid use, focused quite a bit on risk, but his own heavy use and routine video posting about training methods and gains implied that risks could be kept moderate, or at least accepted.  His early death at age 46 implied otherwise. That sort of correction would only occur over time, that the most interesting or actively developed parts of a given subject could turn out to involve non-sustainable practices. 

Of course one could draw related parallels with covid, a topic I’ve already mentioned.  Trump had a lot of people believing there was no pandemic going on in 2020, up until about 250,000 or so people had died from covid, and it seems like forms related to what I’m discussing enabled that.  Now I’m not so sure that a lot of people who reject covid vaccine protection are even clear on why they don’t, it just fits in with other assumptions and shared perspective they hold.  Changing that perspective, even in light of overwhelming evidence about vaccine safety versus covid risk, would trigger negative reinforcement within those groups, and tied to media content inputs.  

I recently looked up what Fox News was saying about vaccinations and they were only running three stories on problems related to violation of personal freedom from vaccination mandates, nothing at all about comparative risk levels, or the benefit of being vaccinated.  The current 7 day average of US covid deaths is 1783 per day, according to the Google dashboard; they wouldn’t mention that.

 

Resolution of effects from these kinds of inputs

 

The way forward seems to relate to greater self-awareness, to identify and control the impact these associations have on us.  I spent a long time sorting out how one might go about acquiring that self-awareness, of inputs that tend to occur on a sub-conscious level, but it all stopped short of giving anyone practical advice, for the most part.  It wasn’t mostly about social media use, the practices of self-awareness I’m referring to, but other approaches and forms of review could carry over.

A higher order awareness of the forms of these patterns may work out.  That news-story Facebook whistle-blower confirmed that Facebook was aware that tone, controversy, conflict, and other negativity were factors in feed algorithm selections.  Facebook chose not to moderate or restrict that in any way, valuing ad revenue and profit over positive social media user experience (per the allegations, at least; the story is still unfolding).  This kind of higher-level discussion of social media influence could be positive, in the longer run. 

People joke that to witness the decline of civilization and general perspective one only needs to browse through Tik Tok.  It’s only partly a joke.  4chan really is a horror show, across some scope, and Twitter really can be much more negative than positive.  It’s not just related to extremist positions though, and adopting the practice of arguing online. Every subject can fragment and lead to more and more extreme positions, with plenty of shift of initial perspectives along the way. I hope that greater awareness of these inputs, and the results from them, can lead to some forms of partial resolution in the future.

Tuesday, August 24, 2021

Vendor promotion through social media channel creation

 

First published in TChing here.


I've mentioned a very successful pioneering case of social media channel creation before, the Yunnan Sourcing Fans Facebook group.  This post is focused on that kind of thing, versus a vendor creating good information content that can support sales in a recent post.  Of course any given vendor can do both; Farmerleaf is a good example of that, with only the content creation really clearly successful so far.


the feel of those groups is familiar, but the functional structure is a bit limited


The prompt for talking about this is being invited to a Farmerleaf Discord server (group), and hearing a nice audio interview there with a friend, Anna of Kinnari Tea, about development issues in Laos.  There are other vendor-specific tea-related groups there.  I don't buy enough Farmerleaf tea to talk about them in a group, or enough of any one vendor's tea (except maybe Moychay; they send me more than average for review).  I suppose that's one drawback, that a premise for participation is based on consuming a lot of one vendor's products.  Some people do that, or maybe even only buy tea from one source.




What other channel forms are out there?  Vendors using open form social discussion themed channels for promotion tends to be heavily restricted and moderated, for obvious reasons.  In the Facebook group I run, International Tea Talk, mostly populated by vendors, content about products is allowed but not explicit sales information.  For whatever reasons it's hard for vendors to adjust to talking about their products without moving on to sales range (mentioning a special, emphasizing contact information, utilizing marketing content that looks like obvious marketing content--ads).  Discussing background in other types of social media settings is an option, it would just require carefully working around restrictions.  Adagio created and hosted Tea Chat, really the former main old-style tea forum, but activity dropped off when they tried to play a more direct role in leveraging that for marketing.  Way off; one part of that upset some of the forum members so much that they created a spin-off forum, Tea Forum.

But what else, like Discord, or that Facebook group?  A Facebook page can work for a contact point, or providing information, but it wouldn't provide the same function.  Crimson Lotus has been developing a cool variation on these themes, doing a podcast series on Youtube.  They're a pu'er vendor (mainly), so it might be a conflict to have another similar pu'er vendor as a guest (eg. the Bitterleaf or Yunnan Sourcing guys), but even that might still work.  It's not as if their customers don't know about source options.  One episode had the Liquid Proust vendor Andrew Richardson on; he sells pu'er, but the business theme is a little different.  Making a podcast work can be hit and miss, but it would work to have really interesting people on, and do a good job of asking the questions people would want to hear answers to, just the basics.  It's quite indirect as marketing goes, and not so interactive, but live streaming versus posting edited video can give it a little more of that feel.


What else?  Due to covid lots of forms of online seminars and conferences are turning up; participating as a speaker could work.  This really assumes that the vendor has something to say beyond "I sell such and such tea."  Not all vendors are further through a learning and experience curve than an average social media group participant.  Someone having been to a tea production area in China--or anywhere--only one time could be used for all its worth; it would be enough.  Elyse of Tealet seems to do both seminar style events and informal streaming group talks, all really seeming more social than business-networking oriented.

I recently participated in a small Malaysian vendor holding an online meetup session to discuss this issue, hosted by Bigfuller Foong (his profile name), what would work for marketing or sales approach in the new business and social climate.  We didn't get so far.  Related to his own tea business he was expanding tea types, embracing a new Japanese tea interest there, and exploring cold brewing, so sharing that online could indirectly lead to sales.  The point related to this theme is that even without a group or channel base online video meetups could fulfill a similar function, with people networking to set up contacts to join those in any way that works.  He was doing more conventional tea enthusiast meetups too, not just talking among vendors and tea professionals.

Rather than arriving at approaches, in that discussion, we ended up discussing the context, how tea perspectives and very local cultures vary.  It makes a huge difference where you are and what you are trying to sell.  That Malaysian vendor was trying to move beyond the most conventional and in-demand Chinese teas that are popular there.  Another prospective vendor in Sydney, Australia was considering how to initiate and develop a Gongfu practice sub-culture there similar to what she had experienced in Austin, Texas.  It could work, it would just take some doing.  A one to one mapping of interest form and perspective might not work, actually, but with the right approach a similar theme and practices might be adapted.

One theme that often comes up:  it's a real challenge to try to replicate the effect of in-person tastings online.  Of course related to the main end-point you just can't, handing over someone tea to try.  You can mail it, but that still skips the brewing part.  A novel initiative combining training and online group tasting themes sold tasting sets and allowed participants to try a variety of Japanese teas together, a set they sold prior to the meetings, along with content presentation and discussion (the Tea Creative Japanese Tea Marathon).  That's different.


these online meetups used to be more about sharing tasting experience


No matter what the approach is it seems critical to identify a point of connection.  Going after existing customers who already have the existing product interest could be a challenge, given some sources have already taken steps to solidify a relationship with their customer base.  There would have to be an angle, something new to offer.  Regardless of channel format or approach if a vendor is sharing their own passion for a tea type that could help, some of it would come across.  


To my limited awareness--which must be missing more than I've caught word of--Yunnan Sourcing is the only success case in setting up a really active channel, on par with a main social media group for activity level, that ties back to developing sales so far.  Many others have had some success but aren't quite there yet (excluding podcast and seminar cases, many of which may have been successful, and I wouldn't know for not really following any).  A number of Discord channels could change that in short order, with those already in existence now.

To switch over to fortune-telling mode it seems likely that vendors who can provide the best source-neutral content and develop a shared-interest community theme will be most successful.  In one sense that's the opposite of the Yunnan Sourcing case; you can't even mention another vendor in that FB fan group.  To cite a possible example, once pandemic impact settles a bit doing local events could link together online connections and a meeting in real life theme, which would be helpful for an experiential subject like tea.  Now only vendor-neutral groups fill this kind of space, as far as I'm aware, usually local area themed.  A vendor being open to broadening discussion restrictions in running such a group could work, or just shifting what YS is doing to include real-life contact scope might, keeping that scope restriction.  That's back to the theme that most successful vendor I mentioned uses, Moychay using shop based tastings and events as a very successful tool to promote awareness, just using social media contact as a catalyst.


a Chinese IT vendor hosted a tea ceremony that helped me get started into tea


I'm guessing this, that a vendor hosted but vendor-neutral approach might work in the long run, because few other sources will be able to match the single-source loyalty of Yunnan Sourcing.  Related pu'er-themed vendors might, outlets like Crimson Lotus or Liquid Proust, or maybe even Bitterleaf, but somehow this group contact function doesn't seem to match with the White 2 Tea theme, to me.  

It's nice how this sort of function can seem to work out based entirely online (maybe in part now since so many people are stuck in isolation).  The main Discord tea community, Communitea, successfully shifts old forum style and FB / Reddit post comment discussion connection to a number of chat channels instead, covering some of the scope that had occurred in real life or through private messages.  It's promising.  All sorts of meetup circles seem to be initiating from lots of different starting points.

That Farmerleaf Discord server / group may mix vendor promotion and community / awareness themes, or it might not take, and limited early activity isn't a clear indication either way.  It's interesting how that location and form invokes gaming and tech interest, just related to being there, and to some extent excludes more people than it includes (like Reddit group sub-culture patterns, which can be rough).  Then it's odd thinking through how other permutations might work, how other social media channel biases might combine or prevent combination with a tea shared interest theme.  Communicator app versions, like Slack or Snapchat groups, might have as much potential as other forms, and for sure those forms will keep evolving.