Meetup with Mr. Mopar

privacy concerns give this meetup capture an unusual look

I've talked with this well-known tea enthusiast in group discussions for years, and he agreed to join an online meetup session with those tea friends.  It seemed a great chance to hear about US sheng pu'er storage, and tea circles, even onto earlier forms of US tea culture, since he seemed to be at it for awhile.  First some background.

John (he shares my name) got into tea around a decade ago, and seemed to move fast towards pu'er obsession, a process that took me and many others some time to develop.  He's from the East Coast of the US, with the reference in his online name related to car interest.  We actually met online twice, since the first session was limited in time and two of my regular circle of friends were dealing with illness issues.  Per usual this summary is just some ideas that seemed interesting to me, with filtering to focus on a central theme, on talking to John, versus serving as a faithful representation of everything expressed.  They both had a lot to contribute, that I've left out describing, or at least attributing.  One writes a tea blog, Teakurrim, worth checking out.

We talked a lot about storage, favorites, and vendor options in the first session, which only Ralph also joined.  It was interesting, but a lot of what one might expect.  I was wondering if he focused mainly on aged factory teas, since those came up most in online discussion, but at least not exclusively at this point, since he is exploring a little of everything.  He likes intense versions of sheng, so not so much the lighter, sweeter, fruity and floral "oolong pu'er / pulong" range.  Seemingly he is more into aged teas than drinking it young, but even that doesn't seem to work as an absolute generality, since he described his taste preferences as broad.  The preferred vendor and source list he mentioned included more than it left out, on from Yunnan Sourcing and through many other names into atypical source options, just stopping short of random trials through Taobao.

His storage preference is kind of conventional for US tea circles, towards the safe side of wetter.  He uses the mylar isolated, boveda controlled approach.  Ralph and I really grilled him about how many tea cakes he has, and the range is in the hundreds, if I remember right, so a good bit.  

John sells tea, which he described as not really a conventional vendor practice, but just selling some cakes to free up funds to buy more of others.  I noticed a post about selling some of a version not long ago, on Tea Forum here, for an early 2000s CNNP Bulang.  I remember mention of him selling one particular Dayi numbered version as a known theme, just not which one.  We didn't talk that much about vending issues, related to him selling tea.

We talked about how far along he prefers teas in relation to fermentation level, and a running theme that kept repeating was that he sees his own preference as a yardstick that doesn't apply to others, that he just happens to like what he likes.  He said that different teas are better or more ideal fermented more or less, a pretty standard take on things.  One thing he said, that's not something you often hear, is that fermentation level can go too far, and that it makes sense to adjust storage conditions once a tea is where you like it.  This would relate to discussing 20 or so year old versions, most likely, or older, and tie back to the conditions designed to keep fermentation pace moving.  I reviewed an 80s Thai sheng once that tasted a bit like charcoal, seemingly degraded, and it was nice after the first 4 infusions or so, but definitely further along for fermentation than it needed to be.

Since Huyen was also present in the second round it was interesting checking on her take on fermentation preference for sheng there in Vietnam.  It's a type they drink a lot of, her and her family, all from there (with a partial background intro related to them making tea here).  It seemed likely that they wouldn't be focusing on drinking 15 to 20 year old versions there, and what she said bore that out, that relatively fully aged sheng isn't a popular theme there.  

I tend to like a lot of younger or partly aged versions myself, and can appreciate and relate to trying lots of more fully aged versions, and own some cakes that are like that, but nothing like the hundreds that John owns.  Huyen showed a couple of pressed Vietnamese sheng cakes that she had handy; although the tea type may come up more as maocha (loose versions) there pressed cakes are also around.

Related to other participant themes, two others joined us in the second session, which made it interesting for drawing on different input.  I suppose it diluted the "Mr. Mopar as meetup theme" subject a bit too, but those talks are always organic discussions, never structured as interviews, or subject-oriented.  This summary rounds off their input to stick with a theme more than them not contributing ideas or input.

It was interesting to me how across themes John kept returning to the idea that preference dictates what is best, related to tea types, storage conditions, and so on.  We all get that, to an extent, but it's also easy to let our own preference sort of organically take on the function of determining what is best, even beyond that scope.  In taking about brewing he covered how he likes to make tea, and variations based on different daily preference, all offered as trial and error informed outcomes based only on his own preference.

As far as social media channels go I knew him first through Steepster, which is relatively inactive now (I think).  He seems to check in most with Discord servers, the pu'er sub on Reddit, and Tea Forum.  He brought up an interesting sounding past Hong Kong based pu'er forum that I missed out on, which he said went inactive some years ago, probably before I focused most on sheng, as of about 4 years ago.  John said that he's open to talking to people about tea issues, and of course there's that vending sideline theme, so I'll include his email contact here, per his request, a step that never comes up here, since it's usually easy to cite Facebook profiles instead (mrmoparnrv@gmail.com). 

A bit of a tangent, to me the main tea discussion areas are still on Facebook now, like Gong Fu Cha, with the Pu'er Tea Club a bit quieter now.  The FB group I moderate, International Tea Talk, is currently in an awkward place for being mostly frequented by international vendors, which can be interesting, but really leads to too much commercial promotion.  All of these groups seem to thrive based on having a half dozen or more most active members fill in a social network feel, and it's interesting how Gong Fu Cha stays active without that.  It's nice the Discord groups sort of change the balance a little, enabling people to set up small groups that use an old mainframe discussion format, versus FB groups and such being an option.

It was interesting talking with John, although for it just being about ordinary tea preference and storage themes this summary doesn't seem to come together as a story.  That is the broader story of tea culture though, lots of people taking up different preferences and practices, now including social media and meetup channel options.

Tea Themed New Year's Resolutions

First published in TChing here.

My own goals related to tea tend to stay the same year to year, if a bit general:  to experience something new.  Not so much related to new types, since I've mostly set aside broad exploration, and try whatever I happen to try, or pushing on to higher quality or more distinct examples of already familiar types, but just new to me in some sense.

sheng "pu'er" from India (from Ketlee), a novel tea I tried last year

For the past two years that has related to a long exploration of online video meeting contact, originating with a few random sessions in early 2020.  That was based around a core group of friends meeting, moving on to more involved sessions with subject experts in 2021.  It wasn't so far off a podcast theme, just not recorded or broadcast.  Prior to that, in 2019, I was messing around with tasting themes instead, and sometime around then I put focus on starting a Quora Space (Specialty Tea).  It's a decent reference now, and I keep writing there.  

This will be about how other types of resolutions might work out, based mostly on talking to a lot of people newer to the subject in lots of online groups, returning back to what I might do that's different.

Drink better tea:  the obvious direction, which could be taken lots of ways.  Anyone drinking tea bag tea might move on to loose leaf, and people still on Harney and Sons blends range--which is fine--could explore better single input teas.  It's easy to sort out how to try better versions of what you already like, but it can take time and effort to get input for leads on better sources.  One approach towards that is to explore social media outlets related to tea, to hear about what's out there, and sourcing suggestions and so on.  This general intro post might help.

Connect with others with a similar interest:  to many this would seem a stretch; why go there?  Some reasons:  to experience in-person tasting sessions, to learn about types and teaware, or to exchange teas.  Or it could just be that identifying with a subject seems odd when you don't know anyone else who does, and it sounds interesting to resolve that through online contact.  

The starting point for this is level of tea interest.  It is actually possible to discuss tea themes with people who are still on flavored tea bag or grocery store tin versions, which to many tea enthusiasts is only an early starting point, naturally leading to more in-depth exploration.  The Facebook Tea Drinkers group or main Reddit r/tea sub-forum focus on that level.  The Gong Fu Cha group is an example at the other extreme.  Discord servers are interesting for using a form similar to old chat boards, and for being populated by really young people, for the most part, and they tend to fall in the middle related to prior exposure.

Drink more diverse tea, at limited cost (improve value):  it's funny how tea enthusiasts tend to split into two sets, with one seemingly not concerned with cost much at all, seeing spending $20 on 50 grams of tea as no big deal, since that would brew quite a bit of tea (a couple of dozen cups, maybe).  For the other set and perspective parting with $20 seems like a significant expense, regardless of volume being considered, so moving beyond what is in grocery store shelves is problematic.  

I can relate to wanting to find a balance in the middle, for working with a very limited tea budget, but still wanting to try a range of teas.  That tends to involve ordering some tea in batches, with expense between $50 and 100 per set kind of normal, or more later, as quality expectations change.

In the past ordering through a general vendor that sells medium quality tea would be a good intro point, one like Adagio.  Unfortunately their marketing theme has shifted, enabling them to move on to selling a broader range of blends and to ramp up pricing, so that for the same cost you could actually buy better tea from other types of vendors.  Chinatown shops are a good way to get to a middle ground, providing access to tins or loose versions of modest quality teas at low cost, examples that are still much more diverse and better than specialty grocery stores would tend to carry.  

Now ordering through a foreign based vendor works best for this general goal, one like Hatvala (for Vietnamese teas), or Chawang Shop (for Yunnan origin Chinese versions).  Yunnan Sourcing is not so far off that theme, a kind of broad outlet selling a large range, but any vendor carrying 1000 versions of tea puts workload on a customer to try and sort it all out.  You don't need to understand what those 1000 teas are but you do need to somehow put a dozen or less in an online cart.

Improve brewing skill and range:  this one is easy, since buying a gaiwan is half the resolution, and practicing to use it most of the other half.  Gongfu brewing, the related approach of using a higher proportion of tea to water and many short infusions, really only works better for some tea types:  sheng pu'er, high quality whole leaf black tea, twisted style oolongs, and to a lesser extent rolled oolongs.  For broken leaf black tea or green tea a Western approach is more or less the same, and shu pu'er gives pretty good results made in lots of ways.  Results related to white tea vary by type and preference.  

It's too much to go into what Gongfu brewing is but a recent Quora answer about how to brew oolongs covers the basics, with lots of guides out there covering a more step by step explanation (just search Gong Fu tea in Youtube to watch a few).

Get family and friends into tea:  good luck!  Don't expect this to work in most cases, but it is cool when it clicks a little for the right person trying the right tea.  There really is something special about a tea party, regardless of what you choose to do with form, or how much the guests love the drink.  

There's no need to cut that off related to what you like most, or tend to drink.  If you can't give children "real tea" due to a concern over caffeine the same theme can work using chrysanthemum, and the kids will love the form.  If you don't have children, or nieces and nephews, that's probably a stretch, but hopefully there are people in your life who can still tap into that exploration range to get the most out of a related form.  A lot of people's moms would love it.  

Try including different snacks, or set it up outdoors, or maybe just do it all on your own, and treat yourself to the same theme without needing others to share it.  If you think that you really should have a ceramic teapot or some range of interesting cups that's a great prompt to check out a local thrift shop, and give new life to tea equipment that someone else needed to pass on.  The "matching set" theme isn't a necessary part of it, as I see it, but individual judgment and style would factor in related to that.

More formal types tasting is something else; for someone on that page the options really span a lot of range.  I've held tastings in a park and a zoo before and the results were pretty nice.  In one other context tasting a guest tried a Chinese black tea and commented that they never knew that they liked black tea until that moment; that can be really special for a guest and the host.

My 2022 new direction:  not identified yet.  If anyone has ideas or leads on directions to chase feel free to comment wherever you see this, or look me up to talk, maybe easiest through my blog's Facebook page.  I've long since thought that broad tea awareness and culture development won't take a next step until it finds its way into mainstream media communication, but I explored that direction and didn't get far years ago.  

A podcast theme would probably work but I don't feel motivated to do that; it's already being done.  Last year that meetup discussion theme included 20 or so interesting and influential tea producers and vendors, from a dozen or so different countries; it might work to extend those introductions and background theme coverage to a networking scope.  The last talk we held covered tea processing details based on input from producers who are exploring new directions from the US, India, Laos, Georgia (the country), and Nepal.  It frees up potential direction in that I don't really need to focus on my own personal gain; that discussion was about them sharing ideas for their own interest and benefit.

A simple resolution might be better than all that:  to relax and enjoy the quiet once more frequently while having tea, just putting the phone down and being in that moment.  I'll try that.

Talking with Alex and Bruce about Russian tea, other themes

 

We had the first online meetup of the year recently, meeting with Alex Phanganovich, who I've mentioned before here, and Bruce Carroll, an American friend living in Chiang Mai.  Alex and I first met at a Monsoon hosted talk about tea and sustainability presented by a Russian ecological researcher, Alexey Reshchikov.

Alex is looking at Kenneth Rimdahl in the back, there at Monsoon

he met the kids that day, visiting while I was at swim class with them

I wanted to write this partly to cover discussing Alex selling a bit of tea he's ran across along the way from living in Chiang Rai, and also to mention Huyen's brother mentioning a new online sales outlet.  Huyen's whole family has an amazing vibe, and they are all tea experts, so it has been nice when they can join the meetups.

it's nice seeing Huyen's nephew join; soon he'll be talking about tea too

We were supposed to talk about tea tourism in Chiang Rai; that was the initial point.  We just didn't get to it.  I think there are only a half dozen main producers that Google search would mention there (like this does), and more unconventional and interesting smaller producers would be something else, maybe further out of the Mae Salong area.  Alex mentioned that learning about local tea culture was interesting while staying there, which we didn't get to far into.

We didn't talk about tea all that much, as those meetups usually go, delving pretty far into introductions, and how covid went for people, even into how tobacco storage and consumption parallels tea themes, which led to talking about weed.  Legalized marijuana is being developed in Thailand, and another friend here uses it for a rare problem with facial muscle pain treatment.  All that is what it is, already familiar or not.  

The point about tobacco comes up in discussing humidors quite a bit.  The main difference between tobacco storage and tea is that aromatic woods used for tobacco storage can add positive flavors, and for tea you don't want anything but the other tea contributing to the changes.  Then apparently for tobacco you use different pipes for different kinds of tobacco, as with clay teapots.  Who knew?

It has been snowing in Sochi, where Alex is living now, and a main place where tea is grown in Russia.  And also in Krasnodar, I guess?  In the US tea plants used in Sochi are known for being among the most cold tolerant types that exist, which applies fairly directly for a lot of the US too.  We talked a little about Russian tea preferences, and produced styles, about changes in gaba development and shu and such, but no developed sub-themes that really need to be filled in here came up.

hopefully they're cold tolerant

A question came up about Russian blends really being smoked or not, which didn't get far in discussion.  It's my impression that this is either something made up, or a reference to Russians importing and then mixing smoked Lapsang Souchong with other teas, or to tea transported from China by horseback picking up a smoke flavor from campfires as it was transported.  My guess is the first, that it was made up.  I'd expect most of the tea that made a trip by horse, earlier, was pu'er or hei cha instead, which would make it easier to transport, and matches the theme of Yunnan producing tea for Western and Northern Chinese areas that are too cold to make their own.  Not that I'm well informed about any of that; I asked someone by message before posting this but it didn't work to get more input.

Huyen covered a bit about range of Vietnamese teas, but I've been through a lot about that here in the past.  There are two really good articles on all that by Geoff Hopkins, the owner of Hatvala, on history and evolution of tea there and on origin areas, geography, and types.  Some interesting backstory on the article source:  per my understanding when the old World of Tea blog (by Tony Gebely) transferred content to become the Tea Epicure blog some of the material went to a partner's site instead, which is what that killgreen.io site is.  So unless I'm completely wrong that had been a World of Tea guest article, which is cool.

So I'll mention a little more on those two tea sales updates and let this go.

Huyen's family has long since founded a cafe in HCMC (Saigon) and a chain of gift shops with different outlets, Tra Viet.  I might have reviewed at least one tea from them but I never kept track of origins of what Huyen shared.  Her brother is now expanding to selling tea through Amazon.  It's nothing too novel, but if better tea really is starting to creep into outlets like that it would be good.  I don't think they'll kill off small tea vendors or foreign outlets any time soon, although minding that concern makes sense.

Alex specifically mentioned that he's not necessarily trying to become a mainstream vendor (he can be reached through Facebook though, or Instagram), and that he mostly sells a bit of what he picked up in a year or so of living in the north of Thailand.  Or in general gaba tea, gushu versions, or aged shu, per asking him for this write-up, and maybe later on more Russian teas.  Maybe that's especially relevant to someone living in the Sochi area, since meeting up with someone and trying some teas helps a lot for getting a sense about such things.

This has barely touched on tea issues in Russia so far, right?  That's partly because the general background about what teas Russians like and perspective on the subject repeats what is in other posts (like this one on Russian tea culture).  An interesting sub-theme came up about perspectives on Moychay, a Russian outlet I mention a lot here, for reviewing a lot of their teas.  Some Russian tea enthusiasts love Moychay and some don't--normal enough.  They share teas for review in this blog, to be clear, so my potential bias should be noted, which isn't going to come up here since I'll set aside going further with that discussion for another post.  Alex offered some thoughts on what objections might be, or how different biases could factor in, and how it relates to perspectives on other vendors, and that really got me thinking.

Short discussion came up of a book on tea by Sergey Shevelev, the Moychay owner, Geography of Chinese Tea.  He posted a nice intro of that as a Youtube video recently.  It pretty much matches the review I wrote, talking about what's in it, about Chinese tea types, geography, history, some old stories, tourism sites, processing steps for teas, and so on.  

For covering all that, and for including a lot of photo content, it's a bit general, but that seems fine for what it is supposed to be.  It's not a manual for how to process tea, but it does contain a lot more of the typical processing steps than other books I've read.  It's not a tourism guide, but it could work to cover ideas for what to see related to tea while visiting China.  It's not a comprehensive guide to tea types in China, although it is pretty close to covering all of the main types in limited detail, and many less known versions as well.  Someone just mentioned what they took to be a rare steamed Chinese green tea type in the Gong Fu Cha group, a tea from Hubei, and there was a short section on processing steps in that book on it.

So it was the usual, nice keeping in touch with people and making new contacts, and talking a bit about tea.  It takes the pressure off to do justice to a subject not talking to a tea producer or sub-theme expert, freeing up space for covering tangents.

Tea blogging life cycle

First published in Tching here

It feels a little like I've written about this before, in considering a tea enthusiast quitting tea in this 2016 post.  Looking back that was about pros and cons of a developed tea habit, about caffeine concerns and expense, with only a little on exploration playing out a natural course.  My favorite tea blog author just gave up blogging, Geoffrey Norman of Steep Stories, making it a good time to revisit that theme.  To add context, his current blog page is 10 years old, but he had been doing tea reviews and writing in different forms before that.

In between that earlier post on a tea interest lifecycle, in the past five years, I've written a lot more than I ever had prior.  I switched from mostly oolongs and some black tea to mostly sheng pu'er.  Maybe more relevant, over the last year I've questioned why I keep writing, for many of the same reasons Geoffrey mentioned in that final sign-off post.  It just gets old, writing similar thoughts over and over, and even covering new tea-range exploration feels like repetition.  In general the audience shrinks as platforms like Instagram draw more attention, with pictures with moderate caption text easier to browse through than reading text.  Facebook now focuses more on showing people ads than private blog link posts.  I could pretty much end this post there; all that is the crux of it.

But of course I can say more.  There would always be ways to add new dimensions to a long-standing interest that you aren't completely burned out on (tea scope, not just tea writing).  Geoffrey mentioned that he will dabble more in making related videos, and he has been making memes about tea for awhile.  Last year I was part of a small social circle / meetup group related to tea interest, along with three friends, and this year we extended that to talking to a number of tea specialists.  I should summarize how that has went here in a post, beyond posts covering individual details, since we didn't broadcast or edit and publish that video.  Even that series sort of felt like it ran its shorter course, since it was hard to set those meetings up, and it worked better as a late covid wave replacement for other social contact, with the pandemic finally easing up a bit now.

Long ago I started taking tea more seriously than would be typical for a beverage interest, and to some extent it's that part that isn't sustainable.  Learning and experiencing new things has been great, and making contacts, even friends, but it would help if it felt like it was leading somewhere.  

This is probably a good place to explain why I even started:  about a decade ago I started exploring social media more and used tea as a subject theme as a basis for that.  Just joining Twitter might be interesting, but connecting Twitter to a subject interest makes sense, not that I ended up liking Twitter.  The same applies for writing a blog, trying out joining and then co-founding a Facebook group (this one), starting a Quora Space, and so on.  A new form for social media channel interaction hasn't clicked in awhile, beyond the meetups.  And it's a little harder to keep learning now, having already encountered so many ideas.  

I'm writing more about other subjects, an activity that isn't new, but that I've only started including in my tea blog over the last year or so.  I guess that started here:  Calhoun's Universe 25 mice experiments; overpopulation effects related to modern social themes.  It's uncertain that this is the "writing on the wall" for quitting blogging about tea; maybe balancing different interests would work well.  Since then I've written about foreigner / expat perspectives on culture in China, Dissociative Identity Disorder (the multiple personality theme), on how social media groups define and reinforce perspectives as distinct subcultures, and on Buddhism as it relates to rejection of a real internal self.

None of this really relates to any broad movement in tea culture or awareness.  It's not that I think the subject itself loses steam, or ceases to renew cycles of discussion.  It just seems natural to only talk about an interest like tea for so long, and then to just drink it.  As one Tea Chat forum veteran said he felt "tead out" after awhile, or to paraphrase Alan Watts (about another subject) after you get the message it's time to hang up the phone.

But then I don't see my own interests, goals, or experiences as the boundary of what I communicate or discuss, or else I wouldn't have stuck with it for this long.  Helping others can be pleasant.  Even then declining interest in text content definitely offsets that as a motivation for writing a blog.  It doesn't matter if 50 or 500 people read posts, but at some lower threshold it somehow seems to make less sense.

people do still read the posts but not as many

I'll probably keep writing, and slow down review pace, and keep diversifying themes.  Asian culture  has been a longstanding interest, related to living in Bangkok for 14 years, and I've not really said as much as I might have about how perspectives are similar or different, which should eventually tie back to tea.  Not in blogs at least, but I did also start a second Quora Space about that.  Other things could come up too, interactions or tangents.  I met with tea producers from five different countries this past weekend to talk about industry perspective and some processing background; things like that.

Rishi of Gopaldhara on changes to Darjeeling processing

 

We met with Rishi, the plantation manager of Gopaldhara and Rohini, two of the main Darjeeling plantations.  Or surely many others of them are significant, or all just slightly different.  He explained that Gopaldhara is one of the older plantations, and that Rohini one of the newer ones, with Gopaldhara working with issues with many plants being older there, and Rohini producing from younger plants, at lower elevation.  So the challenges would be different, and potential outcome related to what approaches would work out well at both.

Josh Linvers joined us this time too, the tea sommelier from Canada who we've met with twice.  He went through a Darjeeling exploration phase this year, focused as much on Gopaldhara as any other source, so it made sense to include him.  He had even been in contact with Rishi, in discussing what he had reviewed.

Per usual this won't cover everything we talked about; these summaries don't work out like that.  And some degree of bias or selection has to be applied in that filtering. This represents an indicative summary, but also one adjusted for what I see as main themes, or most interesting for readers, avoiding personal discussion scope, which didn't come up much this time.

Changing Darjeeling tea processing and aspects outcome

To me this is not only one of the main things we discussed but also one of the main themes Gopaldhara has been working on for years.  They've been moving towards making more whole-leaf versions of teas, versus Darjeeling tending to be quite broken or chopped in many product forms in the past.  Rishi explained why that is, and to some extent even covered more about the different forms (to a tiresome extent, really, delving deep into how the grade codes work, which are complicated, but I'll not even touch on that here).  He clarified they make as much of whole leaf versions as they can, with some proportion always broken leaf of different sizes, and with that outcome varying by harvest season, material type input, and other factors. 

The basics, as he described it, relate to Darjeeling tea production stemming back to how the British made tea 150 years ago.  That was based mostly on automated production of Assamica variety teas (although it would require a tea historian to place how the equipment varied over that time), with more focus on low elevation growth.  Darjeeling is based mainly on variety Sinensis plant types now, as it has been for some time, just newer form selected genetics cultivars of those.  

Per his surely oversimplified summary, condensed for an audience not comprised of tea production professionals, this earlier production, which extends to the present day, had involved use of a different kind of rolling table than is typically used in Chinese production.  Rolling is the step of bruising the leaves, enabling air contact with enzymes that cause oxidation.  Use of the prior form of equipment results in production of a much higher proportion of broken leaf material.

So beyond the rounded off description his goal has been to make whole-leaf Darjeeling teas.  Of course this would also relate to the picking methods used, and sorting concerns, and so on; it's not all about one piece of equipment and one processing step.

It's not as if all Darjeeling isn't sorted by leaf size.  Automated processes support separating and selling whatever is produced as finer particles, broken leaf, and more whole leaf.  The difference lies in setting up processing, and changing equipment use, to lead to production of a much more whole-leaf main outcome form.  

This isn't unfamiliar in higher quality Chinese tea production; it's standard from there.  I drink broken leaf tea from time to time, but on the average day I'm drinking very whole leaf sheng pu'er, at different times replaced by very whole leaf versions of oolong or Chinese black teas, and so on.  Or sometimes Darjeeling, or other teas from lots of places.  I'm drinking a black tea from Russia while I write this initial draft (whole leaf processed, but a gaba version, a completely different story).

This doesn't result in a claim that Gopaldhara is leading the way to completely changing Darjeeling tea, or that they already stand far above almost all other producers at this time.  It does seem likely that Rishi is a real visionary, leading the way in a likely future direction, which was probably already clear enough to some others, who have been taking similar steps.  Other parts of the story fill in why it's just not that simple.

Making these changes adds cost, from the harvest step on through equipment expenses and processing time.  The demand has to be there, or else they aren't producing this tea for an established market to consume.  Distribution channels also need to be open to the change. They've been selling other forms of Darjeeling for a long time (mostly that, at least), and need to accept a shift in cost, and other changes.  It's just far easier to source and sell the same products than to make any changes, which also involves some degree of risk.  It would filter down to packaging issues too; more whole leaf products won't be as dense, changing that requirement.

Before going further with that range of effects, and how it has worked out in practice, we might consider why Rishi sees this as a natural next step, and why it's so necessary.  He explained that it's his passion to make better versions of tea.  Seems a bit idealistic, maybe almost too simple, but I fully accept that a main part of pushing this change is a personal love of tea.  It's the part that presumably all tea enthusiasts share, just in different forms.  Per my preference their teas are the best Darjeeling I've ever tried.  But then I'm not a Darjeeling specialist, and focus more on Chinese teas, which has probably driven me to be biased towards this tea form and related character (experienced brewed tea aspects that tend to correspond with that form).

While I'm on an aside I want to cover one more tangent, prior to getting back to how broad awareness and demand issues are playing out.  Brewing some teas Western style works better than a Gongfu approach, and for some Gongfu brewing is much better.  It applies by tea type as one factor, with others also relevant.  Sheng pu'er gives better results brewed Gongfu style (using a much higher proportion and many short infusions, versus using a teaspoon per cup brewed for 4 to 5 minutes, maybe only for two infusions).  Broken leaf material, for green and black tea, typically works out better brewed Western style.  As I see it shu pu'er is an odd exception; it works fairly well made lots of different ways, not just Western or Gongfu brewed, but also "grandpa style," or even thermos brewed.  If one assumes that only Western style brewing is going to be used this change to whole leaf versions would still be positive, but that offsets some of the potential for improved experience.

All of that is my own personal opinion; others could see brewing issues and likely cause and effect patterns far differently.  That applies to most range related to tea.  Expectations change a lot, and personal preference changes what is the best-case outcome quite a bit.

there's always at least one issue with every picture (credit Suzana)

Demand and awareness patterns

We talked as much about how distribution channels and end-point vending is affected by shifting the nature of the product (moving from broken leaf to whole leaf), but I'll settle more here on the consumer perspective instead.  In taking up that other discussion it could easily seem like I'm blaming wholesale distribution systems and companies for being short-sighted, or favoring profits over an inclination to provide the highest quality tea, and all of this isn't intended as judgmental in that way.  Change occurs slowly in relation to the activities of large companies and governments, or even related to consumer preferences (typically); it just is what it is. Selling what people already expect and want is a much easier, more direct path to profiting as a business.  It works as well to look at related issues from a different angle and consider consumer preference instead of distribution or sales range, which is the angle I'll review the same issues in regard to instead.

Some people are getting it.  Access to these teas is out there in different vending forms, and word gets out.  Not nearly as much in India as in European markets and in America, as Rishi described it.  That's partly due to expectations, to the developed tea enthusiast perspective in places like the US having been shaped by Chinese product ranges, in part.  Indians don't already drink that much Chinese tea; they produce their own domestically.

To be clear when I'm talking about "tea enthusiast preference" here I'm generally not referring to people buying tea in tins at the grocery store.  That's a different range of products.  It seems so judgmental, to sweep aside the entire mainstream product range as irrelevant, but that's not entirely what I mean, and a bit beside the point.  Those teas are fine, there is nothing wrong with consuming them and loving them, they're just something else, a different kind of thing.  They are lower in quality and cost, in general.  Part of why what I mean might not be clear is because what grocery stores sell varies by country, and by type of grocery store, specialty stores versus more mainstream versions.  At the same time I say that I've been to grocery stores in a dozen different countries, throughout the US, a lot of Asia, in Australia, and in Russia, and it's a lot more consistent than one might expect.  Tea aisles in China are really something to see but even in places like Japan the range can be limited (although they are a lot more open to foreign teas than I expected, based on very limited sampling input there).

Products sold by a mainstream online outlet like Yunnan Sourcing represent this "better quality" range I'm talking about. Or even Adagio, to a lesser extent, or Moychay, in Russia.  Per ideas outlined by Ralph in the last talk--meeting with an Assam farmer and producer and smaller scale online Indian specialty tea vendor--the main channels in Germany sell tea not completely unlike grocery store tin versions, maybe just a slightly broader range across parts of the scale.  Smaller shops and online vendors fill in higher quality source range (whole-leaf tea, higher quality Chinese and Japanese teas, a typical broad range of sheng pu'er and oolongs, etc.).  In India Ketlee, that vendor outlet we discussed last week, and others like Tea Leaf Theory, represent attempts to source and distribute higher quality range.

Soon enough in one might question how broad the demand is for these ranges of tea, leading to the question of how relevant they are in relation to the grocery store versions (again which I'm not really condemning, or really clearly defining, even though I don't really drink much of that range).  Are we talking about the equivalent of a $30-40 bottle of wine, something mid-range but priced beyond what many people would purchase, or $100-200 per bottle versions, that next level up, demanded by an even smaller group?  

Right now by consumer count the demand for higher quality tea is limited (everywhere, per my understanding), even for 10-20 cents a gram moderate cost tea.  The expense level is at the far low end of the scale though, in relation to wine.  On the high side 3 grams of 20 cent a gram tea would easily brew two cups, at 30 cents a cup, and on that low side for "better wine" a glass of $30 / bottle costs about $8.  To put both in perspective a retail take-away cup of coffee tends to sell for over $5 in the US now, which varies here in Bangkok depending on the outlet, but that range is common too.

Limited demand seems to be about limited awareness, not mostly about a cost barrier.  People in the US overwhelmingly favor drinking tea-bag tea that costs less than 5 cents a cup, versus that 30 cent range, but I think many could easily afford the extra quarter.  Then in interest-specific tea groups that can seem odd, since some people are debating whether $80 a cake sheng pu'er is good enough for them to drink or not (which is already beyond my own tea budget, to be clear).  That's still 22 cents a gram, dividing out from a standard 357 gram amount, so still just at what I'm describing as the high side of high quality but moderate cost specialty tea.

Without someone having experienced any of this range I'm talking about it would all be far too abstract to make any sense of it.  How could someone get any feel for the typical differences in wines that retail for $10, $30, and $100 per bottle if they never drank much wine at all?  It could all seem a waste, something that only wealthier people need to be concerned about.  Then it's a little odd setting that framing related to tea, and saying that a 30 cent cup of tea is out of bounds, while someone regularly buys $5 cups of coffee (or maybe $8 is more typical at Starbucks now).  Water costs $1 a bottle, inexpensive versions of it.  Again, it's probably more about awareness and developed preference based on prior exposure than a cost and value issue.

Huyen's nephew learns about Darjeeling

Other scope

Since that was a main point, that already involved a few tangents, I won't go further in detail about other discussion.  The parts about tea processing were interesting, but I can't summarize that clearly, even if I wanted to.  We talked a little about what is considered to be oolong in India, but it's probably as well just setting that aside, since use of terms and actually different character products tend to mix in such a discussion.  If Indian oolong is ever a lot like Taiwanese or Fujian oolong then I've not tried that yet, but I've definitely tried some exceptional teas presented as Indian oolong, that were just something else.  One other part about plantation worker issues stood out as worth a short description.

It seems as well to add a comment clarifying this directly from him, from later message discussion:

Darjeeling for a specialty tea region is plucking 4 seasons. It is rare because it is a plantation model. Those dependent on the plantation don't do anything else. This is challenging and explains a lot of the reasons why things are structured the way they are. 

Rishi didn't really map out all of that part, or suggest how to resolve staff related concerns that remain problematic.  Tea plantation worker pay is a concern, and other worker welfare and security issues.  He said that standard pay rates, and what they can afford to pay to their harvest and processing staff, are on the low side, in relation to what would provide a high standard of living.  And work demands and conditions are challenging, not ideal.  He mentioned ways they were trying offset and resolve those concerns, which don't all relate to increasing worker pay.  They are also focusing on employee welfare and benefit issues, trying to make sure that health care is available, and retirement support.

Both Suzana and Rishi mentioned regional factors and cultural issues that keep it all from being simple, competing broad forms of employment by regions, and patterns in work preferences that all employers need to work around.  Since this was a shorter discussion, not explored in depth in terms of causes or potential resolution, it seems as well to just set it aside here.

It's interesting to consider how those issues went in relation to covid changing things, but we didn't get to that.  Assuring worker safety must have been a nightmare, a complete impossibility to fully accomplish.  Throughout all the discussion more focus was on tea though, especially on what Gopaldhara and Rohini are trying to do that's a bit different and challenging, which really seemed to work out well.

Talking to Stéphane Erler of Tea Masters

 

Ralph had a schedule conflict

We've talked to some interesting and amazing people as a part of that social meetup series but this moved on to someone I consider to be a tea expert.  No one is a deeper-level expert than someone with half a lifetime's experience in making tea, or a background in helping found a unique nation-specific tea tradition, as people we've talked to. But the conventional sense of someone putting in long years of study, training, and communication, first learning and then giving back to a well-grounded local tea tradition, all evokes a unique type of respect.

For people exploring tea a decade ago Stéphane Erler would've needed no introduction; Tea Masters was one of those classic blogs that helped define tea experience and culture.  And it still is active; that's unique.  I suppose the multitude of social media channels and the current high level of focus on pu'er as a preference end-point might've diminished that standing, as being one of relatively few points of focus, but not as I see it in relation to the solid foundation and value of the reference.  

I'll add a short introduction here of who I see Stéphane to be, and a bit on how he came across to me (we've never spoken by video call before now).  Then this will move on to a set of tangents, for the most part topics we only barely touched on.  These meetups have evolved to be more personal introductions than explorations of tea themes, which is fine.  When a participant has so much to offer about a subject matter, spanning the entire Taiwanese tea tradition in this case, or how Wuyi Yancha is produced and sold, in an earlier example, it can feel like not much was covered for dwelling on personal background, but those life stories and details ground the rest.  There is no tea tradition without complex individuals having and sharing the ideas and experiences.

I don't have a good intro for Stéphane handy, and didn't turn up one in his own words on his Tea Master's blog or Youtube video channel, or on his blog Facebook page (with his vending page here).  Somehow that seems appropriate and positive, that there is no main 50 word summary version out there.  This will mainly draw on my own impression then.  With some positive bias, kind of a given, but I think that's fine, and warranted in this case.  His own words in a recent blog post about blog anniversary context at least clarifies the context:

This weekend, my live video tea classes on FB will be about gaiwan, gaibei and zhong! It's the Absolute Beginner's tea vessel! As we are approaching my blog's 17th anniversary next week, I thought it would be fitting to mark the occasion by learning more about this fantastic tea vessel. It's the brewing vessel for beginners and experts alike. It's a reminder that despite the years of learning, we remain Absolute Beginners in front of tea.  ...[here posted] on my YouTube channel. 

Honestly, I had no idea that tea blogging would turn into such a long undertaking and a new career for me. It has allowed me to be a 'stay at home dad' and take care of my kids (with my wife) every day for the last 17 years. I'll be forever grateful for interacting with so many kind, knowledgeable and passionate tea friends over the years.

And that captures what I would cover for character, that he comes across as very knowledgeable, able to communicate about different levels of practice and exposure, and as very humble.  To me this continual student of tea perspective captures the positive essence of traditional tea culture.  

On to some discussion points then.  We didn't get so far into Taiwanese tea, or brewing practice, or even that local tradition, but some themes we did skim across were really interesting.

The decline of text blogging

Relevant here too, changes in media forms and preference have led to the decline of text blogging, and reading text in general.  It's nice that Stéphane embraces a video form too, which he has for quite some time (starting 15 years ago, although more regular posts started half that long ago).  Watching those first dozen videos could provide an indirect snapshot into modern tea culture's perspective evolution, since there is far less reference content out there from a decade ago and prior than in the last half dozen years.

We didn't reach any end point about what it means that media and content preferences and consumption are changing; it just is what it is.

Penn State tea club 

We didn't spend much time on this either, but due to being a PSU alumni myself I've found it interesting that tea clubs flourished there.  Stéphane was instrumental in supporting that, regularly visiting Penn State to assist with instruction and guidance, surely across a very broad scope.  He mentioned in this talk that there were multiple tea clubs there, covering Chinese and Japanese scope, extending to one being recognized as an "Institute" for also supporting productive research, resulting in research paper output.

I had forgotten the name of a main founder of one such group, and researcher, Jason Cohen, who went on to develop the Gastrograph aroma mapping application and food research company (with more on that in this post).  As with education and business in general the pandemic has disrupted tea events for the past year and a half, which in the context of a club or group whose members "turn over" every four years would really disrupt direction and leadership, beyond freezing the main group functions.

that app is really set up to be modified, definitely not tea specific

Sheng pu'er in relation to oolongs

Experienced tea enthusiasts would each have their own take on the placement of sheng pu'er versus oolong experience, but something Stéphane said linked with what another oolong-range expert once said, in an interesting way.  He said that sheng is naturally a more intense form of tea experience, so that once one acclimates to that range other tea types would seem to lack intensity.  From the perspective of someone who has drank mostly sheng for coming up on four years that rings true(after earlier focus on oolong, as it worked out).  I had always tended to see it as acclimating to bitterness, and then appreciating complexity, and finding aging changes interesting, and then also experience of a tea reaching a peak of character at an undefined age.  Let's unpack some parts of this.

That other oolong expert--who I hope to mention in a meeting summary, but who can remain unnamed here--placed a very similar idea in relation to the "cha qi energy" of sheng pu'er.  She said that to her sheng experience felt a bit harsh and aggressive, not as calming and pleasant as oolong effect.  I don't "get" cha qi experience enough to place that so clearly, but the other range intensity I can relate to.  Even if you flash brew a moderate proportion of somewhat young sheng it comes across as intense, and for the most part that doesn't drop out with age (although for some versions it would).  Even if taste and aroma range diminish older sheng can often still retain a thickness to the feel, or an interesting way that underlying mild mineral tone supports complexity of experience, and so on.

Next it's hard to say if it's a good thing or a bad thing that many people would evolve towards sheng preference over time.  Maybe neutral?  Before skipping on to that point it's worth considering that tea preference in general has shifted to love of bubble tea in a lot of places, including among young people in China and Taiwan (something we also discussed).  They're not the same thing, but there could be common ground, some overlap.  People tend to cycle through flavored teas due to liking strong flavors and familiar range, then to some extent acclimate to milder and more subtle range in oolongs (at some point; exposure patterns vary), and especially in relation to white teas.  Then maybe it is natural to appreciate intensity and complexity over balance and more subtle aspects in later stages.

This could be unrelated, but I recently wrote about developing a form for analyzing tea experience, for documenting it (so form as in record template), and I omitted "balance" from that version:

"Intensity" was listed as a place to put positive notes in relation to aroma aspects (the split between tongue based taste and nasal receptor aroma / flavor isn't described consistently), and in notes related to flaws and limitations in that draft.  It was never intended as a final version; for actual use someone would need to adjust those categories in relation to how they interpret teas.  I don't use any such formal evaluation or note-taking process myself; I made it up for a friend, and then it also works as a thought-model for the parts that comprise tea experience.

We talked a little about gaba teas, and why I dislike the taste of them (or taste plus aroma experience, or however one puts that).  Again, as suggested by a Russian tea enthusiast, he speculated that it could relate to a feel effect, and that gaba oolong--or oolong and black versions--aren't supposed to be strong flavored or intense.  So it could link back to preferring sheng.  He even said that it would be odd if someone loved sheng best and liked gaba oolong too, which I suppose would also work out for silver needle / tips versions, which also aren't one of my personal favorites.  I like Bai Mu Dan better, because that tends to be more complex and intense.

This could seem like I'm implying that a final preference towards higher intensity means something (which really goes beyond a simple infusion strength issue, as I see it).  It is odd that a typical preference cycle moves from relating to flavored-tea intensity and familiarity, bridges to more sophisticated and subtle scope, then potentially often leads back to valuing a completely different kind of intense and complex experience.  How I think it all maps together is too complex for a sub-theme here, so I'll set it aside.

Relationship between Taiwanese teas and other sources as imports

The subject of Vietnam (and Thailand) producing oolong imported and sold as Taiwanese oolong came up.  That's quite familiar to most people who have been following tea themes for awhile.  I first visited Vietnam awhile back, maybe 10 years ago now, and I was surprised to run across a shop and well developed business producing and selling Japanese style green tea.  I thought it was great that Japanese producers supported a fellow Asian country's local industry in that way, linking up to provide growing and process expertise.  Only later did it occur to me that they were producing tea likely to be sold as from Japan, if not in Japan then elsewhere.

The best of the oolong I've tried from Vietnam was better than the best of what I've tried from Thailand, but neither matched what I've tried from Taiwan, even though I've surely never explored the best high mountain teas from there.  In response to asking what inputs led to that, and how good Vietnamese oolong could be in comparison, Stéphane mentioned that since producers from Taiwan are directly supporting processing terroir limitations might restrict final outcome.  William of Farmerleaf just did a video on a related theme about oolong production in Yunnan, and on the oolong processing side here, directly informed by experience from Taiwan.

There are high mountains in Vietnam, in an area I've personally visited in Sapa, but all the conditions would need to come together, that elevation and temperature, relatively ideal climate and micro-climate (local weather and sunlight / shading), soil type, plant type, processing, and so on.  We never really discussed how far an optimum might go, talking around general background a bit instead.

rice fields instead, in the Sapa area (Northern Vietnam)

the focus then was on family travel, not so much tea themes

Beginner's mind

We didn't explicitly discuss this much, but the one thing that stood out the most in talking to Stéphane was how approachable and humble he was.  He seemed to be comfortable talking about what oolong even is (mid-oxidized tea), or going as deep as one would want to go into cultivars, processed tea characteristics, and brewing practice.  

Stéphane said that his own teacher, Tea Parker, emphasizes giving his students tools to keep improving their brewing practices, and presumably teaware experience and ceremonial forms background, but doesn't lay out rigid structure for how to approach or appreciate tea.  That's admirable.  To the extent there is an objective right and wrong to approach to tea that seems right, embracing flexibility and room for preference and experience development.

Given how interesting those briefly skimmed tangents were it would've been nice to hear more about those topics, and related perspective.  Having no structure in discussion is nice for not imposing limits, with the trade-off that if you talk to a Taiwanese tea expert about Indian and Vietnamese teas for half of a short discussion session you end up hearing very little about Taiwanese teas.  It's an odd part to leave out.  But maybe we can meet again, and put more focus on that.  And it's not as if those other themes serve no purpose, for the people joining to place where their own tea experience stands, and for Stéphane to hear a bit about scope he's not experiencing day to day.

Talking to tea enthusiasts in the Hague and Paris

 

meeting with Jan

This meetups series has been interesting, about a group of friends talking to people about tea online, related to different countries.  We've met with a founding member of the Russian tea tradition, one Russian developing an interest group and another producing tea out of Laos, tea producers from Wuyishan China, Assam India, Nepal, and the US, a vendor doing development work in Laos, a vendor in Latvia, and a Canadian tea sommelier.  One potential guest had been in the works representing the next level of "tea celebrity" but scheduling isn't working out.

It was interesting bridging that into talking to a couple of more conventional tea enthusiasts, versus those producers or vendors, in the Netherlands and France (following talking to two tea enthusiasts in Amsterdam previously).  One of those has served as such a helpful guide on different tea issues to me that I see him as a mentor of sorts.  The other was a chance social media contact with a couple of ties to our group.  This isn't going to be as novel as some of the rest of the discussion scope but shifting to consider normal tea habits and perspective worked well.  Not "normal" in the sense of common; both guys have explored tea for at least a decade, to the extent that unusual types of tea interest has normalized for them.

Conversation also drifted off the scope of their perspective, and even tea themes, into other life experience, but under the circumstances I'll keep this mostly about tea.

 

Jan Falkenstein, living in the Hague, Netherlands

This is out of order since we talked to Jan second, but at least in the first draft I'll include more detail about Jan than the other guest (contact, friend).  These write-ups are to pass on interesting ideas and to give the people joining a bit of exposure, even though my blog audience is limited (about 100 people read each post; not so many).  Jan works in software development with an interesting background in experimental music (a phD in that; different).  His Instagram page is here, with links to that music here and here.  

His exploration and preference landed where you might imagine, on sheng pu'er.  It's probably not coincidence that the other guest drinks mostly that type, and that Ralph and I also do.  It is an interesting and complex tea type, with a lot going on in individual versions, as a singular experience and related to aging letting every single tea version be different year to year.  Some people tend to only drink 15-20 year old aged versions, seeing that as a relative optimum (or personal preference, framed differently), but it seems like both of them can relate to a range.  

It's strange how I see it as strange for sheng to work as such a universal preference end-point, even though it did so in my own case (I've drank mostly that for about four years).  Oolong is just as "good," and I love black teas too, but regularly rotate through about 20 different versions of sheng (which hasn't been changing much yet this year).  All those versions are kind of different from each other, and won't be the same teas after resting until next year.

We didn't talk about sheng that much.  A little, towards the end, after Huyen and Suzana both left, getting into sourcing issues and aging concerns.  Jan was curious about Indian tea range so that took up a lot of focus.  I won't repeat much of that here since it's all scope I've covered at length in earlier posts, about Darjeeling and Assam being main growing regions, with other production areas as part of the scope, how masala chai variations work out in practice, and related to older plant growth pre-dating the British tea history in India starting in 1830 or so.  Not a lot of that history came up, or to what extent any of us have actually tried "wild-origin" old plant source Indian teas.  I've not tried much, related to that last "wild origin" point; some falap was probably quite local origin, but maybe no other tea I've tried from India was made from wild, forest-grown plants.

The usual theme of introductions and tangents not being ideal for summary here occurs again.  Huyen had some connectivity problems so we never covered Vietnamese teas in the same way Indian range was discussed.  Kind of a shame; to me Vietnamese tea is the most diverse and interesting, and in some cases positive, of all teas from South East Asia.  I've had some relatively fantastic Laos, Thai, and Myanmar versions, so I mean in general, not down to best versions level.

In the late discussion we talked a little about how social media channels are changing, and what tea culture is like in Discord and Reddit (r/puer more than r/tea, but tied more to interesting special cases than actual group shared interest form).  That kind of discussion almost has to be about over-generalizations; on any given day someone is on a slightly different page in any tea group.  Form differences can be interesting.  Discord is like an old mainframe chat room format, and Reddit subs are closer to traditional forum discussions, with Facebook posts and groups mixing in more focus on links and media.  Scandals and conflict end up being the more interesting parts, although those themes can definitely get old.

Jan has an online store for selling tea; we talked about how that came up, and testing issues based on his experience with that.  A lot of people may be familiar with relatively strict and comprehensive testing requirements for European tea outlets.  It adds workload for vendors there, and expense.  He mentioned how most teas passed all that, in part because he tried to buy versions from more natural origin sources.  That part could use some unpacking; it's still mass-produced "factory" tea, and of course not all vendor or producer claims are accurate (or maybe more aren't than are by count), but I'm on general themes here, not sales-pitch scope.  

He said that a conventional Xiaguan failed for a pesticide level rate, and we talked about how relative risk for those levels might go.  Jan mentioned that the regulatory agencies would shift levels over time, to adjust for cut-offs not always being practical in relation to naturally occurring levels of some toxins.  Best to take all that as interesting input than a guide to how testing goes in Europe, of course; it's surely complicated.

We talked just a little about his experimental music prior to Suzana and Huyen joining; you can check that out here and here.  To me it sounds like something that might work well as 2001:  A Space Odyssey background.  Some is a bit melodic but Jan mentioned that most isn't because it's experimental, about exploring how different kinds of sounds could be experienced, not what you put on when you hang out.

I asked an old college friend about tea interest and options in the Hague once (where he lives); odd that had came up.  He's a university professor there so he asked his students, and they mentioned a favorite place (the Het Klaverblad shop in Leiden).  Jan mentioned Theemaas as another good local option, but said that he didn't like visiting a shop that sold both coffee and tea for those smelling like coffee.  It makes sense.

photo credit their web page (of course)

A bit of follow-up discussion about varying takes on tea themes was interesting.  The Dutch shops I'm seeing reference to don't seem so different than the T2 or the now-closed Teavana chains, maybe including a little more emphasis on plain teas, but not narrowed to what is familiar to specialty tea enthusiasts.  Moychay, that Russian outlet I've reviewed a lot of tea from, now based in Amsterdam, is regarded as selling great value and high quality narrow-source specialty tea, or sometimes that is criticized, and both of those ideas are rejected, but in any case it's more towards that end of the range.  

Jan mentioned how a main source works out in Germany, Teekampagne:

It looks fine, but a little odd for not mentioning an actual plantation source, it's just "second flush Darjeeling."  Contrast that with a Camellia Sinensis vendor page selection: 

Of course these are different kinds of offerings; a low-cost blend of inputs versus a much higher cost narrow type.  The blended second flush shown costs $13.71 for 250 grams while the cheaper of the two first flush versions shown costs $16.54 for 50 grams.  I would imagine that the German mixed input tea is better than Twinings range, but it's closer to that in style.  

It's not the kind of version that's available here in Thailand, in stores, or even online.  A broad range of blends of Wuyi Yancha oolong is available through many Chinatown shops here; that's more the page we are on.  At the lower quality end those can cost a lot less than $13.71 for 250 grams, but quality might be somewhat comparable for a mid-range offering priced around that.  The main difference might be that more people in Germany or the Netherlands are drinking those loose teas, but I would imagine that tea-bag tea still has a firm hold in both countries.

I don't want to go too far with discussion details like that in relation to the other visit, covering less personal details for that guest preferring to not be referenced by name, but I would like to tie together some perspective that came up.

Talking to a tea contact in Paris

Earlier we had met with a tea contact in Paris, who we can call David (not his real name). His personal story was interesting, about getting into tea through chance contacts, then that bridging into sheng preference faster than many experience, maybe around 15 years ago now.  David had lived in NYC and checking out Chinatown led to earlier forms of tea interest, and a chance personal contact led to the sheng range.  Both had experienced plenty of other tea range with considerable focus on sheng.

One really interesting point was about how conventional French experiences of tea goes.  It was a common theme there before it even became popular in Britain (per my understanding; not something we discussed at all).  We talked about modern tea culture themes instead.  He mentioned that he had a circle of friends based around tea interest there but over time the tea focus diminished, and they just became a circle of friends, with strictly tea themed gatherings less common.  That's interesting to consider, isn't it, how tea interest might serve a role in social circle development and then shift off that subject?  Back when my local friend Sasha held tea gatherings the tea was a critical part of the form but it was always more about who joined and other discussion range. 

meeting with Sasha (next to far left) and Pop (beside me)

I didn't take notes on what we discussed, or plan to communicate about it here.  David had travelled a lot in Europe, and elsewhere, and I'd expected to get into a lot on that but it was also a lot about personal scope, about what Paris is like, and how visitors see it differently than locals, and about French food, and so on.  He mentioned how a conventional impression of French food in other countries tends to be about a formal or somewhat atypical scope, and how everyday foods are positive and pleasant in a different way, but not as closely linked to a French food image.  I don't remember that an extensive list of dishes covered the divide, but the general point seems clear enough, about how basic but carefully selected and prepared foods could be everyday fare and then those that require extensive training to prepare are something else.  His description of a local market experience there was especially interesting, about a traditional shopping experience, getting to know local product range vendors.

Both cases, taken together, lead to consideration of what it means to be a tea enthusiast, and what local tea culture is really like.  David mentioned how good loose tea doesn't turn up in cafes and restaurants that much, a common enough theme everywhere.  Tea awareness in Paris has a long history, and more people are probably "in on it" than elsewhere, but it never integrated to anywhere near the uptake level as in China.  Or probably Vietnam, per my understanding.  Then bubble tea and ready-to-drink consumption muddies the waters a bit, related to US and Thai culture; people are drinking tea, just not specialty tea, loose tea versions that they brew themselves.

The people we talk to aren't at the conventional level for tea interest, so we will keep talking about the far end of the curve for developed preference.  That still works, related to getting an image of a general level, and cafe options, and so on.  It's interesting how patterns of exploration and self-definition work out related to tea in practice.  For being really active in one or more online groups a perspective or approach there, or a range of those, can serve as a norm, but very developed tea preference can work out quite differently.  Jan had been quite into tea for many years before he ever realized there are so many tea groups online, and that other friend never did embrace those forms of social contact or discussion that much.  Somehow I had started talking to David in relation to asking about shops in Moscow online he must have been somewhat involved with a tea group or site.