Talking to tea enthusiasts in the Hague and Paris

 

meeting with Jan

This meetups series has been interesting, about a group of friends talking to people about tea online, related to different countries.  We've met with a founding member of the Russian tea tradition, one Russian developing an interest group and another producing tea out of Laos, tea producers from Wuyishan China, Assam India, Nepal, and the US, a vendor doing development work in Laos, a vendor in Latvia, and a Canadian tea sommelier.  One potential guest had been in the works representing the next level of "tea celebrity" but scheduling isn't working out.

It was interesting bridging that into talking to a couple of more conventional tea enthusiasts, versus those producers or vendors, in the Netherlands and France (following talking to two tea enthusiasts in Amsterdam previously).  One of those has served as such a helpful guide on different tea issues to me that I see him as a mentor of sorts.  The other was a chance social media contact with a couple of ties to our group.  This isn't going to be as novel as some of the rest of the discussion scope but shifting to consider normal tea habits and perspective worked well.  Not "normal" in the sense of common; both guys have explored tea for at least a decade, to the extent that unusual types of tea interest has normalized for them.

Conversation also drifted off the scope of their perspective, and even tea themes, into other life experience, but under the circumstances I'll keep this mostly about tea.

 

Jan Falkenstein, living in the Hague, Netherlands

This is out of order since we talked to Jan second, but at least in the first draft I'll include more detail about Jan than the other guest (contact, friend).  These write-ups are to pass on interesting ideas and to give the people joining a bit of exposure, even though my blog audience is limited (about 100 people read each post; not so many).  Jan works in software development with an interesting background in experimental music (a phD in that; different).  His Instagram page is here, with links to that music here and here.  

His exploration and preference landed where you might imagine, on sheng pu'er.  It's probably not coincidence that the other guest drinks mostly that type, and that Ralph and I also do.  It is an interesting and complex tea type, with a lot going on in individual versions, as a singular experience and related to aging letting every single tea version be different year to year.  Some people tend to only drink 15-20 year old aged versions, seeing that as a relative optimum (or personal preference, framed differently), but it seems like both of them can relate to a range.  

It's strange how I see it as strange for sheng to work as such a universal preference end-point, even though it did so in my own case (I've drank mostly that for about four years).  Oolong is just as "good," and I love black teas too, but regularly rotate through about 20 different versions of sheng (which hasn't been changing much yet this year).  All those versions are kind of different from each other, and won't be the same teas after resting until next year.

We didn't talk about sheng that much.  A little, towards the end, after Huyen and Suzana both left, getting into sourcing issues and aging concerns.  Jan was curious about Indian tea range so that took up a lot of focus.  I won't repeat much of that here since it's all scope I've covered at length in earlier posts, about Darjeeling and Assam being main growing regions, with other production areas as part of the scope, how masala chai variations work out in practice, and related to older plant growth pre-dating the British tea history in India starting in 1830 or so.  Not a lot of that history came up, or to what extent any of us have actually tried "wild-origin" old plant source Indian teas.  I've not tried much, related to that last "wild origin" point; some falap was probably quite local origin, but maybe no other tea I've tried from India was made from wild, forest-grown plants.

The usual theme of introductions and tangents not being ideal for summary here occurs again.  Huyen had some connectivity problems so we never covered Vietnamese teas in the same way Indian range was discussed.  Kind of a shame; to me Vietnamese tea is the most diverse and interesting, and in some cases positive, of all teas from South East Asia.  I've had some relatively fantastic Laos, Thai, and Myanmar versions, so I mean in general, not down to best versions level.

In the late discussion we talked a little about how social media channels are changing, and what tea culture is like in Discord and Reddit (r/puer more than r/tea, but tied more to interesting special cases than actual group shared interest form).  That kind of discussion almost has to be about over-generalizations; on any given day someone is on a slightly different page in any tea group.  Form differences can be interesting.  Discord is like an old mainframe chat room format, and Reddit subs are closer to traditional forum discussions, with Facebook posts and groups mixing in more focus on links and media.  Scandals and conflict end up being the more interesting parts, although those themes can definitely get old.

Jan has an online store for selling tea; we talked about how that came up, and testing issues based on his experience with that.  A lot of people may be familiar with relatively strict and comprehensive testing requirements for European tea outlets.  It adds workload for vendors there, and expense.  He mentioned how most teas passed all that, in part because he tried to buy versions from more natural origin sources.  That part could use some unpacking; it's still mass-produced "factory" tea, and of course not all vendor or producer claims are accurate (or maybe more aren't than are by count), but I'm on general themes here, not sales-pitch scope.  

He said that a conventional Xiaguan failed for a pesticide level rate, and we talked about how relative risk for those levels might go.  Jan mentioned that the regulatory agencies would shift levels over time, to adjust for cut-offs not always being practical in relation to naturally occurring levels of some toxins.  Best to take all that as interesting input than a guide to how testing goes in Europe, of course; it's surely complicated.

We talked just a little about his experimental music prior to Suzana and Huyen joining; you can check that out here and here.  To me it sounds like something that might work well as 2001:  A Space Odyssey background.  Some is a bit melodic but Jan mentioned that most isn't because it's experimental, about exploring how different kinds of sounds could be experienced, not what you put on when you hang out.

I asked an old college friend about tea interest and options in the Hague once (where he lives); odd that had came up.  He's a university professor there so he asked his students, and they mentioned a favorite place (the Het Klaverblad shop in Leiden).  Jan mentioned Theemaas as another good local option, but said that he didn't like visiting a shop that sold both coffee and tea for those smelling like coffee.  It makes sense.

photo credit their web page (of course)

A bit of follow-up discussion about varying takes on tea themes was interesting.  The Dutch shops I'm seeing reference to don't seem so different than the T2 or the now-closed Teavana chains, maybe including a little more emphasis on plain teas, but not narrowed to what is familiar to specialty tea enthusiasts.  Moychay, that Russian outlet I've reviewed a lot of tea from, now based in Amsterdam, is regarded as selling great value and high quality narrow-source specialty tea, or sometimes that is criticized, and both of those ideas are rejected, but in any case it's more towards that end of the range.  

Jan mentioned how a main source works out in Germany, Teekampagne:

It looks fine, but a little odd for not mentioning an actual plantation source, it's just "second flush Darjeeling."  Contrast that with a Camellia Sinensis vendor page selection: 

Of course these are different kinds of offerings; a low-cost blend of inputs versus a much higher cost narrow type.  The blended second flush shown costs $13.71 for 250 grams while the cheaper of the two first flush versions shown costs $16.54 for 50 grams.  I would imagine that the German mixed input tea is better than Twinings range, but it's closer to that in style.  

It's not the kind of version that's available here in Thailand, in stores, or even online.  A broad range of blends of Wuyi Yancha oolong is available through many Chinatown shops here; that's more the page we are on.  At the lower quality end those can cost a lot less than $13.71 for 250 grams, but quality might be somewhat comparable for a mid-range offering priced around that.  The main difference might be that more people in Germany or the Netherlands are drinking those loose teas, but I would imagine that tea-bag tea still has a firm hold in both countries.

I don't want to go too far with discussion details like that in relation to the other visit, covering less personal details for that guest preferring to not be referenced by name, but I would like to tie together some perspective that came up.

Talking to a tea contact in Paris

Earlier we had met with a tea contact in Paris, who we can call David (not his real name). His personal story was interesting, about getting into tea through chance contacts, then that bridging into sheng preference faster than many experience, maybe around 15 years ago now.  David had lived in NYC and checking out Chinatown led to earlier forms of tea interest, and a chance personal contact led to the sheng range.  Both had experienced plenty of other tea range with considerable focus on sheng.

One really interesting point was about how conventional French experiences of tea goes.  It was a common theme there before it even became popular in Britain (per my understanding; not something we discussed at all).  We talked about modern tea culture themes instead.  He mentioned that he had a circle of friends based around tea interest there but over time the tea focus diminished, and they just became a circle of friends, with strictly tea themed gatherings less common.  That's interesting to consider, isn't it, how tea interest might serve a role in social circle development and then shift off that subject?  Back when my local friend Sasha held tea gatherings the tea was a critical part of the form but it was always more about who joined and other discussion range. 

meeting with Sasha (next to far left) and Pop (beside me)

I didn't take notes on what we discussed, or plan to communicate about it here.  David had travelled a lot in Europe, and elsewhere, and I'd expected to get into a lot on that but it was also a lot about personal scope, about what Paris is like, and how visitors see it differently than locals, and about French food, and so on.  He mentioned how a conventional impression of French food in other countries tends to be about a formal or somewhat atypical scope, and how everyday foods are positive and pleasant in a different way, but not as closely linked to a French food image.  I don't remember that an extensive list of dishes covered the divide, but the general point seems clear enough, about how basic but carefully selected and prepared foods could be everyday fare and then those that require extensive training to prepare are something else.  His description of a local market experience there was especially interesting, about a traditional shopping experience, getting to know local product range vendors.

Both cases, taken together, lead to consideration of what it means to be a tea enthusiast, and what local tea culture is really like.  David mentioned how good loose tea doesn't turn up in cafes and restaurants that much, a common enough theme everywhere.  Tea awareness in Paris has a long history, and more people are probably "in on it" than elsewhere, but it never integrated to anywhere near the uptake level as in China.  Or probably Vietnam, per my understanding.  Then bubble tea and ready-to-drink consumption muddies the waters a bit, related to US and Thai culture; people are drinking tea, just not specialty tea, loose tea versions that they brew themselves.

The people we talk to aren't at the conventional level for tea interest, so we will keep talking about the far end of the curve for developed preference.  That still works, related to getting an image of a general level, and cafe options, and so on.  It's interesting how patterns of exploration and self-definition work out related to tea in practice.  For being really active in one or more online groups a perspective or approach there, or a range of those, can serve as a norm, but very developed tea preference can work out quite differently.  Jan had been quite into tea for many years before he ever realized there are so many tea groups online, and that other friend never did embrace those forms of social contact or discussion that much.  Somehow I had started talking to David in relation to asking about shops in Moscow online he must have been somewhat involved with a tea group or site.