Ancient temples in Ayutthaya

 

almost all the statues were missing heads

Travel blog time!  Eye and I just visited Ayutthaya, and somehow it felt a bit new to me, even though we've visited there at least twice before.  Only once on a temple tour, that I remember, and that's been awhile, so maybe it was only that.

It will help comparing this experience to visiting Sukhothai and Siem Reap.  Ayutthaya is the least ancient, by a good bit, only on the order of 300 to 400 years old.  Sukhothai is the earlier capital of Thailand, an earlier version of it at least, with the Cambodian temples, that include Angkor Wat, that much older (I think; I should add Wikipedia references before finishing a version of this).  Eye was trained as a tour guide so I kept hearing about history specifics, but to me it was more about the experience than collecting up and placing facts.  Google's input:

Ayutthaya is a city in Thailand, about 80 kilometers north of Bangkok. It was capital of the Kingdom of Siam, and a prosperous international trading port, from 1350 until razed by the Burmese in 1767.

250 years ago then, going back to 600+ on the early side.  Let's check the Sukhothai Kingdom:

The kingdom was founded by Si Inthrathit in 1238 and existed as an independent polity until 1438, when it fell under the influence of the neighboring Ayutthaya after the death of Borommapan (Maha Thammaracha IV).

2021 loy krathong, the best part of celebrating it in Sukhothai

Compared to those other historical places Ayutthaya had always seemed a bit too re-developed, with old temples mixed back in to where the city had been developed again.  "Developed" might give the wrong impression, conjuring an image of a dated but newish context, more how Chiang Mai comes across.  Ayutthaya has a Bangkok Chinatown sort of dated feel, as if it was all put there in the 1940-50 range, with old-style wood houses mostly replaced, but 70 years plenty of time for more recent additions to take on a dated look and feel.  Pictures will help show how that goes.

We did a bike tour on the one main day of our outing.  It was a short weekend trip, going up on Friday, coming back on Sunday.  Ayutthaya should be on the order of an hour away from where we live, so it's still reasonable, just not so relaxed.  The bike tour was Eye and I, no group.  It was just fantastic slowing the pace riding on beat up old cruiser bikes, getting a closer look at everything.  There is a spacious and open environment historical park setting there; somehow for moving in and out of that zone by car I didn't get the same sense of it before.  

A pass to visit 6 main temples cost 220 baht, or about $6; it was nice getting back to the opposite cost range than we experienced in Honolulu recently, for about 7 weeks of stay there.  $6 might not buy you two bottles of water from a vending machine there, and something like a burger is going to be 15-20.

There were foreign tourists there, just not so many.  You tend to see the same 20 or 30 people doing the same circuit, and beyond that everyone seemed to be local Thais.  Surely some were from Bangkok; it wouldn't be easy to tell.

In online forums people joke that backpacker-theme tourists always wear elephant pants, also called painter's pants, and of course that's a completely real thing.  Maybe a third of all tourists had them on, as if they were onto something we were missing.  

elephant pants!  I wanted to ask tourists to pose in them but it seemed like too much.

Tourists, like us, favored bikes over driving, and it made perfect sense why that was.  Our rental cost 50 baht, $1.50, but beyond cost it felt completely right, slowing the pace and being closer to those places.  In visiting Siem Reap we would hire a tuk-tuk driver for the day, and drive up in Sukhothai, but biking was great.  Until it wasn't great; we kept zig-zagging around the city, seeing one more cool temple just a bit outside the inner circle, until it added up to 6 hours of touring, then finally 8, too long for sitting on a bike seat.  I'm still feeling it, two days later.

Visiting those places always gives you a unique reverential feel, as if the weight of history is condensed right there.  Those temples were burned by Myanmar (/ Burma) when that country ended the Ayutthaya empire by invading and destroying them, stealing the wealth of that empire, no doubt slaughtering many inhabitants, and destroying as much as they could.  It was especially eerie how charred so much of it was, with almost every Buddha statue sitting charred and incomplete, with almost every head removed.  But it didn't feel so somber, to me.  The energy was ok, as if the weight of that tragedy had lightened over time, and the indominable Thai spirit retained a high degree of spiritual power even based around semi-restored ruins instead of whole historical buildings.

Angkor Wat, and the other temples in Cambodia, have a vast scale and deeper past lending them a different kind of energy.  There are more temples there, across a broader area, left much more natural and open, with fantastic reconstruction of what had been there earlier, in much more expansive temple forms.  

awhile back, at the iconic Tomb Raider site

Related to Sukhothai, the new city never grew up around there to the same extent either, and leaving ruins open as a less crowded and city-enclosed space gives that former Thai capital a completely different feel.  To some limited extent Ayutthaya had thrived again, as a tourism center, and local community.  Tourism in Thailand isn't thriving now, in the wake of terrible covid disruption, but tourism areas coming back to life again is grounds for a different kind of optimism.

It's just out of the rainy season now, only a week or two past it, and the huge mud levees and sand-bag barriers still there are a testament to how close it was to being a disastrous late rainy season.  Two more weeks of heavy rain would've flooded there, and elsewhere.  Eye and I were in Honolulu right up until the very end of that, from the beginning of September through the third week of October, returning to mold growing on a lot of the wood surfaces in the house, and piles of leaves in the driveway showing where waters had collected and receded last.  In the last 15 years this house had never been empty for nearly two full months like that.  Right at the end it occurred to me that my stored tea might have molded, but it hadn't.

everything on the inside was on the high risk side of that mud retaining wall

Culture shock is for people spending longer like that somewhere; it just felt like a vacation outing there.  Strange at first, since we hadn't traveled in a form much like that during covid, even though we did get out within Thailand quite a bit.  It's different visiting truly local areas, versus beach communities, and places like Sukhothai.  That was one year ago; last Loy Krathong, the Thai holiday when people float small boats, krathongs, that carry away your sins.

The main defining theme this time was not having the kids with us; they stay in Honolulu, finishing the school semester, living with their grandmother.  It was a stretch for me to work out months on end remotely, and going without an income during an extended location change wasn't an open option.  It might've made sense to have just one of us return, or either Eye or I remain stationed in Honolulu instead of her mother, but somehow that plan was selected.  I don't like spending a day without them, never mind two months.  Eye loves the break, the freedom to return to personal interests, losing the pressure to supervise their meals and life, but I don't.  I call them once or twice a day to check in.

Local foods there were nice, I guess, and experiences with local markets, especially one that looked a bit different than any I've visited before, which is saying something.  We test drove tiny Toyota smart cars, kind of a random thing, walking past where that was set up, in a small but pleasant park space.  I guess we reconnected as a couple, to some extent?  Not fighting due to reduced stress and demands is as positive as any of the rest of that, to me.  I don't fully get it. 

inside that market area, like an ancient version of a mall

the food area there, already closed in the afternoon

how night markets look

It was cool staying in an old-style, pleasant three star hotel, a rating that means a specific thing here.  Per the Thai ranking four stars is where places are nicer, where the hotel breakfast is actually better, the pool is less janky, and everything doesn't look dated.  Still, I love places like that, maybe more than the slightly higher level versions.  The broader history there has a pleasant feel, like in the temples, just across a different context.  The main place we visit in Korat over and over is like that, just a good bit nicer, an Imperial chain hotel there.  Back to the temples instead, only at one point did I directly feel the energy of one place, like a pleasant sort of dizziness, at the Wat Mahatat grounds, not really near any structure or shrine in particular.  Violent deaths happened everywhere there, but that energy was positive.

I've definitely accomplished a meandering, random travel blog account, more about my own feelings than what someone else might experience.  My feelings would've been completely different with two kids in tow, an older one complaining about every local meal, and a younger one bringing a bright spirit to every moment and aspect that others could marvel over, as I constantly do.  Old places have energy, but those two kids' old souls have more power yet, and local spirits must be happy to get a visit from their sort.

those smart cars, in a cool test track park

posing with children in traditional clothes

one amazing temple after another

these looked stunning at night, but 8 hours into the bike tour I had stopped taking pictures

it is considered bad form to ride elephants now, causing suffering for them

a lighted pathway marked a running race, which we were so close to biking through

fields and ponds made for a great touring setting

Three visits to the Bangkok Chinatown

 

I write about visiting this area all the time, last to buy tea for gifts for people for Christmas, not that long ago.  The third visit was on that theme, buying tea as gifts for my wife to take for people while traveling, on an outing back to Hawaii, where we met and lived together in grad school awhile back.  Let's describe the outings in order though:

First visit, street food in Chinatown, buying tea to give to a monk

My wife and I went to Chinatown about three weeks ago now, in part to buy tea as a gift, but really to eat at a street food outlet with a friend of hers.  The Thai oolong for a gift we bought at the Sen Xing Fa shop, here:

The kids just weren't with us on that visit; this is from the most recent outing, which they did join.  Standard Thai light rolled oolong is ok, it's just not typically exceptional.  Above average range versions from Taiwan are better, and to me the higher end from Vietnam seems better.

Eye with her friend, and with me.  People make too big a deal out of how interesting and delicious street food is, when food courts or food shops sell roughly the same things, but that bowl of noodles and pork balls and the rest was fine.  I didn't get a picture of it but a shaved ice, beans, dried fruit, and longan juice was even better.  The feel of Chinatown is the thing, all the sights and sounds together.  They sell things that you don't see elsewhere, like fresh roasted chestnuts, but beyond that it's just a really interesting and diverse range.

Second visit:  visiting a temple with Sergey, of Moychay, and Chinatown dinner

Oddly this didn't relate to tea, even though we visited with one of the most interesting and personable vendors I know (the founder and owner of Moychay).  We toured that temple that I keep bringing up, Wat Pho, with Sergey, and went to Chinatown for a casual dinner afterwards.  Why mention it here?  Mainly to show a couple pictures of the temple outing.

Chinatown is 2 or 3 stops away from Wat Pho on the metro (subway), depending on which side you go to, so it's a quick 15 minute commute between the two.  We don't live near a metro stop so that doesn't work as well as a trip from our house.  I'll often take a river ferry there, since there is a river stop not so far from our house, which makes me feel like I'm on vacation.  I've walked from Chinatown to Wat Pho a few times and it's not that far, and although it looks a little rough in spots in the middle, as one place where homeless people sleep, I never felt like anyone was going to cause me any problems there.

My kids really enjoyed meeting Sergey.  We don't meet tea contacts for those sorts of outings, but when we do meet people on outings for different reasons the kids usually tolerate it instead of enjoying it.  I see it as a really good sign of positive character when someone can easily connect with children, as he did, or with animals.

Some people might think that for a neutral, objective, journalism media oriented blogger I'm a bit too familiar with Moychay, and it's that I don't see my tea blogger role in that way, like a major paper food reviewer role.  I think personal connections don't affect my descriptions of teas during reviews, but it would be normal if they did, and readers would be justified in assuming that it might work out like that.  In the last Moychay aged sheng comparison post I said that I liked the $100 cake more than the $150 cake, so apparently I'm not extending that to taking a complete party line, echoing what a marketing department would probably say.  

If anyone is concerned about this theme I also really like Cindy of Wuyi Origin, Anna of Kinnari Tea (of Laos), Rishi of Gopaldhara, and Geoff of Hatvala, and I tend to only express that all their teas are good, because I think they are.  The Jip Eu Chinatown shop owners seem like an extra aunt and uncle to me, even though we're not that far apart in age, but you have to be careful about selection there, because they sell a broad range of types and quality levels.

Third outing:  buying tea for gifts

My kids finally met those shop owners from Jip Eu I love visiting, and vice-versa.

only the one that never poses for pictures would pose; strange

It's really rare to find inexpensive versions of tea that are also medium quality level, as those were, pretty good teas, punching way above their weight for value.  I described it in this way in a comment about it:

I use quality as a broad blanket term with no clear meaning, not really even a clearly defined range of meaning. If I taste that shui xian beside a high quality wuyi yancha version a lot of specific meaning would come to mind. Such a tea would be more intense, complex, refined, and balanced, and it would brew cleaner from early rounds into a longer cycle of infusions than this one. One hard to grasp aromatic quality tends to stand out, a liqueur or perfume like aspect in better versions. But it's ok tea still, it's nice.

That makes it sound more limited in appeal than it really is, given that it could easily pass for a decent version of Da Hong Pao (or Shui Xian, what it is).  There I'm saying that good value 40 or 50 cents a gram versions are that much better than that tea, which costs under 5 cents a gram, but it's probably on par with a lot of what is selling for $10-15 per 50 grams in Western website outlets, at around ten times the price. Exceptions and value like that are really rare in Chinatown shops; you would have to try teas for years to accidentally run across one.  I can appreciate even more flawed teas than this though, but it's nice having it both ways, experiencing that value and tea quality.

The other tea, for gifts, is a jasmine green tea, a version they make themselves from a decent basic Chinese green tea.

We stopped by Sen Xing Fa again, that other shop, to check out tea bricks I didn't get around to trying that first time, due to being in a hurry.  I was just there to grab some Thai oolong as a gift the first time (which tends to sell for $10-15 for 200 grams, still inexpensive, but it's not so different than medium quality Tie Guan Yin, just ok for what it is).  The bricks I thought might be random aged sheng, which is an interesting scope to check out, well worth buying if the character is interesting and pricing is moderate.

it makes you curious, doesn't it?  air conditioning is not ideal related to storage conditions themes, but it could still be ok.

It turns out there were three kinds of bricks there, an aged sheng, what I expected it all to be, some Fu brick tea (hei cha), and an aged version of Oriental Beauty, which is unusual (Taiwanese highly oxidized oolong).  I would try the aged sheng then, right?  It didn't work out that way.

aged Oriental Beauty brick

The shop owner suggested that we try the Oriental Beauty, so we did.  It was 8 years old, if I remember right, and turned out to be quite pleasant, fruity and rich, complex, well-balanced, maybe picking up extra depth due to aging.  The catch:  it was selling for around $200 for a half-kilo brick.  

That's probably actually about right for what that is (40 cents a gram; it sounds expensive, but go price aged Oriental Beauty and see what turns up).  My wife joined us soon after and there was no way I was spending $200 on tea.  I wouldn't have anyway; if a sheng brick happened to be $50 or 60, and novel and pleasant, I would buy that (and I think it was more like $45, 1500 baht), but I've been spending too much on tea lately to go in for a standard $90-100 low cost aged cake.  If I buy any of it using cash and my wife isn't there it's like it never happened, no paper trail to see, but with her joining us that entire theme went out the window.

That Oriental Beauty would make a good gift tea, if someone wasn't keeping track of what they spent, which isn't how it works when I give people tea as a gift, which is why those others were at the opposite end of the pricing scale.  It had a deep honey sweetness, with lots of rich fruit showing through, and warm spice tones, exactly what pretty good OB is supposed to be.  I really wanted to move on to buying either that partly aged sheng, or at least get a modest Dayi cake, to serve the role of a paying customer, but three other people were waiting in the car for us to finish, so I had to put off that next step. 

What is the take-away from all this, the running thread?  I like Chinatown?  My kids were pointing out how it felt like we were on vacation while there that second time, even though we just stopped by for a dinner.  Chinatown in the day, that last visit, is noisy and smelly, which I love, but at night it feels less like a Bangkok wholesale oriented sales area and more like a different country, like China.  Oddly parts of China lack the rough edged feel of the Bangkok Chinatown version, even though others would surely be rougher.  This is a typical market and shop area in Shenzhen, the last place I've visited in China, 3 years ago:

That whole city is a new economic development zone that didn't exist when the Bangkok Chinatown shops already looked exactly as they do now in the 1950s and 60s, so it's not an equivalent comparison.  Hong Kong looks more like how people think of China and Chinatowns:

Hong Kong is cool looking, lots of parts of it.

Talking with Alex and Bruce about Russian tea, other themes

 

We had the first online meetup of the year recently, meeting with Alex Phanganovich, who I've mentioned before here, and Bruce Carroll, an American friend living in Chiang Mai.  Alex and I first met at a Monsoon hosted talk about tea and sustainability presented by a Russian ecological researcher, Alexey Reshchikov.

Alex is looking at Kenneth Rimdahl in the back, there at Monsoon

he met the kids that day, visiting while I was at swim class with them

I wanted to write this partly to cover discussing Alex selling a bit of tea he's ran across along the way from living in Chiang Rai, and also to mention Huyen's brother mentioning a new online sales outlet.  Huyen's whole family has an amazing vibe, and they are all tea experts, so it has been nice when they can join the meetups.

it's nice seeing Huyen's nephew join; soon he'll be talking about tea too

We were supposed to talk about tea tourism in Chiang Rai; that was the initial point.  We just didn't get to it.  I think there are only a half dozen main producers that Google search would mention there (like this does), and more unconventional and interesting smaller producers would be something else, maybe further out of the Mae Salong area.  Alex mentioned that learning about local tea culture was interesting while staying there, which we didn't get to far into.

We didn't talk about tea all that much, as those meetups usually go, delving pretty far into introductions, and how covid went for people, even into how tobacco storage and consumption parallels tea themes, which led to talking about weed.  Legalized marijuana is being developed in Thailand, and another friend here uses it for a rare problem with facial muscle pain treatment.  All that is what it is, already familiar or not.  

The point about tobacco comes up in discussing humidors quite a bit.  The main difference between tobacco storage and tea is that aromatic woods used for tobacco storage can add positive flavors, and for tea you don't want anything but the other tea contributing to the changes.  Then apparently for tobacco you use different pipes for different kinds of tobacco, as with clay teapots.  Who knew?

It has been snowing in Sochi, where Alex is living now, and a main place where tea is grown in Russia.  And also in Krasnodar, I guess?  In the US tea plants used in Sochi are known for being among the most cold tolerant types that exist, which applies fairly directly for a lot of the US too.  We talked a little about Russian tea preferences, and produced styles, about changes in gaba development and shu and such, but no developed sub-themes that really need to be filled in here came up.

hopefully they're cold tolerant

A question came up about Russian blends really being smoked or not, which didn't get far in discussion.  It's my impression that this is either something made up, or a reference to Russians importing and then mixing smoked Lapsang Souchong with other teas, or to tea transported from China by horseback picking up a smoke flavor from campfires as it was transported.  My guess is the first, that it was made up.  I'd expect most of the tea that made a trip by horse, earlier, was pu'er or hei cha instead, which would make it easier to transport, and matches the theme of Yunnan producing tea for Western and Northern Chinese areas that are too cold to make their own.  Not that I'm well informed about any of that; I asked someone by message before posting this but it didn't work to get more input.

Huyen covered a bit about range of Vietnamese teas, but I've been through a lot about that here in the past.  There are two really good articles on all that by Geoff Hopkins, the owner of Hatvala, on history and evolution of tea there and on origin areas, geography, and types.  Some interesting backstory on the article source:  per my understanding when the old World of Tea blog (by Tony Gebely) transferred content to become the Tea Epicure blog some of the material went to a partner's site instead, which is what that killgreen.io site is.  So unless I'm completely wrong that had been a World of Tea guest article, which is cool.

So I'll mention a little more on those two tea sales updates and let this go.

Huyen's family has long since founded a cafe in HCMC (Saigon) and a chain of gift shops with different outlets, Tra Viet.  I might have reviewed at least one tea from them but I never kept track of origins of what Huyen shared.  Her brother is now expanding to selling tea through Amazon.  It's nothing too novel, but if better tea really is starting to creep into outlets like that it would be good.  I don't think they'll kill off small tea vendors or foreign outlets any time soon, although minding that concern makes sense.

Alex specifically mentioned that he's not necessarily trying to become a mainstream vendor (he can be reached through Facebook though, or Instagram), and that he mostly sells a bit of what he picked up in a year or so of living in the north of Thailand.  Or in general gaba tea, gushu versions, or aged shu, per asking him for this write-up, and maybe later on more Russian teas.  Maybe that's especially relevant to someone living in the Sochi area, since meeting up with someone and trying some teas helps a lot for getting a sense about such things.

This has barely touched on tea issues in Russia so far, right?  That's partly because the general background about what teas Russians like and perspective on the subject repeats what is in other posts (like this one on Russian tea culture).  An interesting sub-theme came up about perspectives on Moychay, a Russian outlet I mention a lot here, for reviewing a lot of their teas.  Some Russian tea enthusiasts love Moychay and some don't--normal enough.  They share teas for review in this blog, to be clear, so my potential bias should be noted, which isn't going to come up here since I'll set aside going further with that discussion for another post.  Alex offered some thoughts on what objections might be, or how different biases could factor in, and how it relates to perspectives on other vendors, and that really got me thinking.

Short discussion came up of a book on tea by Sergey Shevelev, the Moychay owner, Geography of Chinese Tea.  He posted a nice intro of that as a Youtube video recently.  It pretty much matches the review I wrote, talking about what's in it, about Chinese tea types, geography, history, some old stories, tourism sites, processing steps for teas, and so on.  

For covering all that, and for including a lot of photo content, it's a bit general, but that seems fine for what it is supposed to be.  It's not a manual for how to process tea, but it does contain a lot more of the typical processing steps than other books I've read.  It's not a tourism guide, but it could work to cover ideas for what to see related to tea while visiting China.  It's not a comprehensive guide to tea types in China, although it is pretty close to covering all of the main types in limited detail, and many less known versions as well.  Someone just mentioned what they took to be a rare steamed Chinese green tea type in the Gong Fu Cha group, a tea from Hubei, and there was a short section on processing steps in that book on it.

So it was the usual, nice keeping in touch with people and making new contacts, and talking a bit about tea.  It takes the pressure off to do justice to a subject not talking to a tea producer or sub-theme expert, freeing up space for covering tangents.

How evil China is or isn't, according to foreigners living there

 

I've long since taken up the habit of watching non-fiction channels on Youtube, for entertainment.  It's a good replacement for watching movies or television shows, or comedy videos, and so on, because learning is also involved.  Not so different than watching documentaries then, just different content form and scope.  In almost all cases it's not something even remotely useful, like following cave diving, mafia history, prison stories, or how movie special effects are created.  The most recent theme has been foreign expat perspective on China.  

This runs long, and there's nothing here anyone absolutely needs to know, just rambling on about culture-based perspective, so if anyone is opposed to reading long text passages this would be a good place to leave off, or one identified summary a few paragraphs in is also set up for that.

To start, I love and appreciate China.  Lots of countries and cultures, really, but China and a limited few of others hold special meaning for me.  I'm really into tea (of course), and that has served as a base for a special connection.  I've been to China three times, and to Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan beyond that.  I've had friends in China, mostly Chinese people, with only one foreigner there now coming to mind, and a second having moved out from there a year or so ago.  Some of my closest family friends in Bangkok have been Chinese, foreigners living here for a moderate length stay, usually the family of my childrens' friends (three different families).  Shenzhen was the first and last place I visited in China, where Winston--the main China based Youtuber this post follows--had been living.

two of those friends, who are really missed

that little girl was just great, and for sure still is

It's a bit off the subject but I suppose Russia is the other main country I feel some attachment to.  That's odd, given those have been the two main enemies of the US, at least outside of the Middle East.  I've only visited there once, and friends from there tend to be more distant contacts, but I've known enough Russians that it wouldn't be easy to arrive at a count.  I've had really positive experiences with a lot of other countries, related both to positive vacation visits, and knowing close friends from many, so that's not intended as putting those two cultures or places on some different level.  Chance contact just happened to work out that way, that I've had more exposure to those two.

Those Chinese expats' perspectives (based on Youtube channel accounts, posted videos) have recently split into two separate groups, those more or less completely pro-China, and others who's message is divided between appreciation of the culture and dislike of government activities and a perceived strain of extreme nationalism, which tends to drift from being described as a radical position to something more mainstream over time, as the main parties present it.  Those two perspectives don't sound like they are in so much direct conflict, do they?  At least not the earlier and more positive form of the one.  It's not so simple identifying how far into pro or anti China range either "side" is, or in what ways, or why.

Winston of Serpent ZA (photo credit article on five China bloggers to follow)

It's a balance all Americans deal with, resolving a love of most aspects of America and a dislike of parts that have evolved in ways one regards as negative.  On the left / liberal side that dislike would relate to nationalism extended to downplaying the relative status of other countries, or the perspective of minorities in the US (or even rejecting racism, I guess).  On the right / conservative side it's more about rejecting perspectives involving social justice issues, over-extending feminist, minority, class-based, and sexual preference group concerns.  Few people in America reject a majority of American culture as positive, not just one main half like that, although there's no reason why someone couldn't.  In part that liberal and conservative divide does seem like two fictional story lines, to me, but it's as well to not go into that here, since I'm talking about China instead.

I will get on to covering more specifics here, but let's get one basic starting point out of the way first:  is China evil?  Sure, of course, at least in part.  Some citizens' rights are being repressed, broad free speech and free press is out, and some minorities are dealing with a lot more than the trade-off between maintaining social order and making allowance for free speech, standard rights, and diverse perspectives and interests.  Surely there are internment camps, and people disappearing, and whatever other bad things happening.  

It's just not a part of most people in China's daily lives, as I understand it, beyond something like making adjustment to what you should express online.  It's not at all like 1984 (Orwell's novel), where an oppressive government has everyone living in fear.  At least that's my perspective.  I can add a lot of depth to that in relation to what it's like living in a country without free speech, because I do live in one, in Thailand.  Limited criticism of the government is questionable but typically tolerated here, depending on the form and content, but any public negative comments about the royal family lead directly to a lengthy prison stay.  Any foreigner getting involved with any of it probably wouldn't be around long.

Before getting back to starting points let's consider this:  is America evil, or is Thailand?  Yes, to both, at least in part.  Governments tend to look out most for the interest of a wealthy few, in most places, and that's quite true of both those countries.  To say that the US is better because people have clearly defined, broader rights overlooks that an unfair distribution of wealth and generally horribly ineffective government focuses national resources and policies on making wealthy people wealthier.  Wars are taken up to benefit military contractor companies, refugee immigrants are held in internment camps, in appalling conditions, and in some cases foreign prisoners are held without regard to any universal rights or rule of law.  It doesn't get much more evil than that, although forms of genocide are a clear next step.  

The US government probably only murders foreign spies and government leaders, and those cases are surely exceptions, more of a Cold War era theme.  Or maybe someone like Epstein, but one might think he partly had it coming, just not before some due process.  Thailand is corrupt on many levels, and lots of problems stem from that; let's just leave it at that.  But it's not dystopian or anything, I don't think.

Is China worse?  Tough to say.  If you are on the receiving end of such national-culture and public policy limitations in any country that's the worst case for you personally.  An average experience seems more relevant, and it's too complicated to judge life-input factors related to that, since different people live out completely different life experiences.  Free speech is definitely an issue there.  Let's get back to the Chinese foreigner / expat theme though, since this is enough introduction of the broad themes.

Serpent ZA / Winston

Winston (aka Serpent ZA) is seemingly the main Youtuber, in terms of following count, and personal history as a foreigner talking about life in China.  This post talks most about him, and I've seen the most of his videos.  

Winston is from South Africa, no longer living in China, as of a year or two ago, but he seemed to spend about 15 years there before that.  He seems personable and well-spoken, which really makes his videos work (within reason; people would probably read him differently).  Both "sides" seem nice enough, him and a fellow Youtuber he creates content with, and others he sees as inappropriately supporting Chinese government interests, at least in some cases.  All that is what I'm taking from watching a limited number of videos, that there is no good and bad guy side in how I'm interpreting what I've seen.  It's more about scope exclusions, and in some cases perspective maturity.  Of course many related videos by those Youtubers say exactly that, that the other guy is saying and doing the wrong thing, for bad reasons.

In Winston's earlier videos there was some mention of cultural limitations related to China, about restrictions on public speech, and negative things that happened to him there, but content was more positive (I suppose even "mostly" positive).  In recent videos, over the last two years, especially since he has left China, almost all the content is highly critical of China, of the CCP government and a cultural strain he describes as radical nationalism.  In recent posts he accepts that this radical nationalism has become a relatively mainstream perspective, something he attributed as a minority perspective in the past.  I suppose the themes covered changed over from largely positive to negative even earlier, but the form and tone definitely shifted more over time.

At a guess those negative issues aren't necessarily made up, so it comes down to whether or not focus on the negative is fair for different reasons.  Maybe a number of negative personal experiences makes that side of life in China seem like a more mainstream concern than it really is, or worse yet emphasizing a real set of issues to the point of exaggerating them could be used to draw more Youtube video clicks.  Or both; valid concerns could couple with noticing that personal income from video views increases with discussing those concerns, and making them sound dramatic.  Winston was always risking being able to stay in China, it seemed, so he either made that trade-off related to wanting to tell a more complete story, or because that content was more popular.  He is self-employed as a Youtuber, so the clicks correlate to income level.

To jump ahead to what is really a final conclusion (making this a reasonable place to leave off reading) Winston probably added more and more negative scope about Chinese culture and noticed he drew more and more video views as he did so.  Posting about problems in a relationship or trouble getting a bank account wouldn't be a problem, but from there moving on to talk about free speech issues really would be.  As soon as he did that the writing was probably on the wall related to him needing to leave China at some point.  But every further step would lead to more Youtube views, since an anti-CCP or anti-China position would be of interest to many, and the more negative things he would say the more problems he would encounter with push-back.  Every bump in views would bring more personal freedom from work and financial concerns, so there would be no going back to lifestyle-oriented content, to more typical travel blogger themes.

  

To put that critique of society and broad worldviews in perspective, if you look for problems in the US or Thailand to focus on and discuss they are there.  There's no problem with someone putting focus on those, since the issues are genuine.  Hating and discussing the other political extreme--left and right going at it--is probably the overall most popular topic in the US, even before Trump's involvement escalated that quite a bit.

If you extend that to say that general life experience in the US or Thailand is defined and shaped by a narrow range of government problems (unfair taxation or public policies, monitoring citizens, disrupting free speech or access to information, etc.) then that is probably going too far.  Lots of layers of problems come up in both places, in the US and in Thailand, but the two governments seem more guilty of not resolving problematic issues than of causing them.  

Exceptions come up, something like national debt the US government is directly causing, of course, and here I guess the election process seemed like an issue to many people.  Both cases tie to a point one of these China-based Youtubers mentioned, that the real underlying problem is that wealthy and powerful people tend to focus on gaining more wealth and power, and that causes problems.  Really poor and middle class people tend do the same, they're just not as good at it, and they can't steer governments and nations in unfortunate directions to benefit themselves, at most they can get a promotion at work.  That's beyond people being able to vote in bad political officials, but then it's normal for the whole range of options to be bad.

A later example will unpack how this plays out in relation to China and this Youtuber debate.  It seems informative to refer back to a cycle of experience for expats / foreigners in Thailand, related to how there is typically a very positive "honeymoon" period for foreigners living here, then a transition to a positive but more balanced view.  In many cases after that long exposure shifts to focus on problems and limitations, related to negative personal experiences.  Before covering an example that shows how it all ties together it would be helpful to review the "other side," what other China based foreigner Youtubers are saying about related issues, or debating with Winston.

The other side, pro-China foreign Youtubers

I've only seen a few videos of response or debate in relation to Winston's perspective and specific accusations (under a dozen), but I can still summarize what I take to be that position, it'll just be partly wrong, related to that limited input.  Per a recent vide--by Lee Barrett? I'll not put effort into including these people's full real names or positions--Winston overemphasizes problems, most likely as a means to draw Youtube views.  A specific example related to a take on conventional local tourism marketing versus generating pro-China propaganda that spreads a false narrative informs how this kind of divide can work in detail.  A section here at the end includes some links for some representative videos.

A response video about allegations of supporting Chinese propaganda, that crosses that line in relation to that issue, fills in the two opposing detailed perspectives.  I've not watched nearly as much video by this Youtuber, (Joeya?), but it seems to be typical travel-oriented content, not limited to within China.  It's not mostly about political commentary or related issues, and it seems likely he might put that topic completely out of scope.  

That's not going to help with unpacking the deeper question "how evil is China?," but one point seems to be whether or not focus on that as a main concern is necessary.  For a broad foreign nation perspective on China it's necessary to consider that, and to try to place how China relates to other countries, and its own citizens, and how it treats minorities, especially Tibet and the Uyghurs.  

The BBC wrote about this recently; that kind of source might be a better reference than an expat Youtube channel.  Their intro:

Human rights groups believe China has detained more than one million Uyghurs against their will over the past few years in a large network of what the state calls "re-education camps", and sentenced hundreds of thousands to prison terms.

There is also evidence that Uyghurs are being used as forced labour and of women being forcibly sterilised... 

That sounds bad.  Then again foreign news sources never get news issues in Thailand completely right, so maybe checking multiple sources before accepting what any one says would make sense.  The BBC wouldn't be able to place why people are protesting the current government in Thailand, exactly what it means, and which groups or interests are at play.  You would think they could, but they can't, over and over, even though connected themes and story lines keep repeating here.  

That gap in foreign media understanding seems to happen because Thai news sources are either not saying much or are biased towards one perspective or the other, and the BBC relies on foreigners working here to try to sort it out.  Foreigners tend to only be so integrated or connected.  Then there is a trend to try to place two extremes in perspectives, for any given issue, and map out where in the middle a likely truth must fall.  That could work, or it might miss more than it catches for getting parts wrong, or for that approach just not applying well in certain cases.  

An example will clarify what I mean, related to here, but before considering that it's as well to consider that in light of the conservative and liberal divide in the US.  Which side is responsible for national debt, extreme over-use of military to the extent that seems to be more about spending a lot of money than security, or the gap in setting up things like universal health care?  There's only one right answer:  both.  Back to a Thai example then.  

Either the current Thai government was democratically elected or not; it won't help to try to oppose two potential yes and no answers and then find a middle space that is accurate related to being nearest to one more correct extreme.  Then if a government was elected by a fair vote, related to the lever-pulling part, something like a political party paying for votes could potentially offset how valid that determination process was, since that's not fair.  Or even if a party made a number of false promises the election result could be less valid.  That would be like Trump's foundational position that he would balance the budget or "drain the swamp," prior to helping balloon national debt and placing prior petroleum company executives in charge of energy policy or environmental restrictions, and so on.  

I guess on the opposite side if a completely rigged election arrived at the same result a fair and open version would have then it's not good that the form was set up like that, but it didn't make a difference.  It's better to never really try to build a case around that last premise; elections should be open and legitimate from start to finish, without parts that need to be explained away.  Now it sounds like I'm talking about Bernie Sanders and the US process instead, doesn't it?

That special case, tourism promotion versus soft-power propaganda

A number of China-based foreigner Youtubers took part in a local sponsored tourism marketing program, accepting coverage of some degree of expenses to travel to and create content about visiting a Chinese city.  Per the one perspective (the people going on the trips) this is a normal practice, not different than a travel blogger getting a free hotel stay anywhere to help promote that business, or a food blogger a free meal, etc. Per the other perspective (Winston's, and his fellow Youtube podcast host's) it was more insidious.  This promotion was used as a cover-up to change the narrative about Chinese flooding, related to problems caused by dam development.  This shifted focus off local broad-scale tragedy to a much more positive agenda, about how nice restaurants and tourist sites are.  

Since local government tourism agencies were coordinating these the money was essentially coming from the central communist government.  I guess it's like a conspiracy theory, it's just not that much of a conspiracy, not like the JFK assassination or covering up knowing about aliens visiting.

Again, it's even possible these two themes are both valid, and don't conflict.  There could be personal tragedy going on, tied to mismanagement of water resources, or ineffective infrastructure development.  Local tourism options in the same general region could be positive.  The two themes might connect, or they might not.

This accusation of propaganda isn't easy to be clear on, related to how to place it.  Let's consider first, is the current Thai government making an effort to block news coverage and foreign awareness of political protests, attempting to alter foreign understanding of events in Thailand?  Sure.  But that's an extreme case, and it's not easy to separate that from any typical government spin.  You can't really trust anything the US government says about government budget issues, defense spending or armed conflicts, diplomacy, or government program or policy development.  That's just normal; governments and corporations generally aren't trying to be completely transparent.  

Not releasing information and blocking others from doing so are the crux of that issue.  If the Chinese government arranged to send foreign Youtubers to a flooded area, during floods, and made sure there was no mention or video showing that then it would be a case of disinformation,  just a relatively tame form of it.  

Flooding and water management issues aren't as simple to pin down as most other subjects, although I guess political protest can become a bit hazy too, who is protesting what and why.  Thailand had huge problems with flooding a number of years ago, something like 8 or 9 years back, and it wasn't easy to identify why that was happening, even for people here.  It rained a lot that year; that was part of it.  Water management practices definitely did not effectively predict how much water they needed to release from dams in advance of that period of heavy rain.  Per my understanding that's a typical problem, because water resource management involves maximizing retention of water in dams to use for agriculture during the dry period.  That level of retention maps directly to risk that higher than average rainfall will cause flooding problems, which the dams are there in part to control.

This background tangent runs long but that case was interesting, and it didn't go as one might expect.  It seems like China needed to release a lot of water relatively quickly from the Three Gorges Dam, and it caused devastation downstream; that's what one would expect.  Those years back Thailand needed to release a lot of water from a number of dams in a related way, for roughly the same reason, but then they knew that bottlenecks for what the main river could hold (the Chaophraya, going through Bangkok) would cause flooding here.  It had to flood somewhere, and they had controlled options to put industrial and residential communities outside Bangkok or the inner city itself underwater, related to controlling where overflows happened.  They did what they had to do, choosing the former and sparing the inner city.  

Making such climate-related predictions isn't going to get any easier, related to effects of global climate change, which make local rainfall patterns less stable and predictable.  If controlling authorities guess low, and get that wrong, water won't be available for growing crops in dry seasons, and farmers, farm industries, and the economy will suffer.  Guessing wrong on the other side can lead to flooding and a potential loss of life.  Without stable climate patterns year to year significant error related to both extremes will become normal, and continually worse over time.

Back to the China flooding propaganda and Youtuber as tourism promotion issue some details seemed trivial.  Were all expenses covered, leading to this being an atypical payoff for expressing certain ideas, or were only some, tying to a more limited and conventional promotion package?  It hardly matters, whether those bloggers paid for their own airfare or not.  The cost of domestic flights in Thailand is negligible, and I'd expect the same is true there.  Were there limitations in what they could express, topic scope placed out of bounds?  That seems more relevant.  Or did they get paid enough to fabricate information that had no bearing on their own personal opinions?  Seemingly not, all input considered, but it's worth at least listing as a potential concern.

On the one side Winston presented a letter from the tourism agency, or at least a reference represented as such, expressing limitations of what could be discussed.  On the opposing side two of the Youtubers who went on that trip described the letter as fake, not what they received or were told, confirmed as ingenuine by the tourism agency who was claimed to send it.  It seems possible the reference was fabricated, or conceivable that a second type of communication was sent to a second group with a slightly different message.  It's not unthinkable that a government sponsored PR agency could have said something that wasn't true.  

On the one hand this is a real crux of the matter, whether related communication documentation and the message content was falsified.  On the other it doesn't matter; if there really were two forms of communication it's not all that different than if it was made up.  It doesn't change things as much as it might initially seem to.

Is the content the Youtubers produced, related to expense-paid travel, an example of "soft-power fluff-piece propaganda?"  Or is it normal tourism promotion, which represents their own real impressions of the trips?  I suppose that's for any potential individual audience member to judge, but to me it seems like tourism promotion.  If a government blocks media coverage of political protest against that government, which China has definitely done in the past, and probably carries out regularly, then that's related to propaganda, directly adjusting what is and is not news.  If tourism is promoted to distract from flooding concerns then it's seemingly not the same thing.  Preventing or eliminating existing media coverage of flooding is something else, which would be possible in China, since they can even tidy up what is on their internet.  

Coverage of the corona virus outbreak background would work as a good example of how a distinction might be made, but it's not possible to identify what the Chinese government knew about and restricted release of.  It seems likely that the World Health Organization was notified relatively early in the outbreak, a main form of external communication of the issue (in late December 2019, maybe that was, if my memory is correct, or it was early January instead). What was known and not released never will see the full light of day.  Or if nothing significant was; the uncertainty works both ways.  Personally I think Chinese government corona virus conspiracy theories are absurd, mostly because virus research consensus is that the covid virus evolved naturally, and their opinion means more than the average blogger or news reporter's, but I'm not going to include a tangent on that here.

Why would tourism promotion even be connected to a flooding news cover-up?  In the presented letter it mentioned restricting coverage of sensitive topics (again which may or may not have been a genuine email communication), and the rest is speculation.  This part does look a lot like Winston looking for a scandal to "break."  To be fair if he had been involved in a number of similar related scandals, or issues that seemed complicated and somewhat negative, then a perspective that filters events inclined towards seeing nefarious plots could kind of make sense.  Just not the fabricated email part, if it came to that.  It would help to watch some of his other videos to see what else might have really worked out that way, cases of where and how the Chinese government agents did apply pressure.

Thailand expat experience cycles

This all seems to relate to a conventional experience pattern expats face here in Thailand.  It can't be completely generalized, because people are here for different reasons, and have radically different experiences (and pre-conceptions, personal biases, etc.), all based within a different culture.  A full description would unpack how a number of different types of expats exist in Thailand, and how their experiences follow general patterns, that any one given expat may or may not experience.  I don't want to go too far with that but a little description of that can set the stage for describing general experience patterns.

Retirees are one main group of foreigners here, typically older people here to live on less fixed income, or mostly to experience different life circumstances.  Younger expats (/ Western foreigners) fall into a few other categories.  Backpackers tend to overlap with "digital nomads," people traveling as part of a lifestyle choice that involves not working much, and IT professionals who work independently.  English teachers are the main work theme group, typically not so different than backpackers, beyond acceptance and emphasis on working to support themselves.  A backpacker could be living off a trust fund, or in Thailand for half a year with savings to support that, or working a little online.  Anyone working full time online couldn't really lay claim to the defining condition for being a backpacker, which isn't a category people necessarily aim to fall in anyway.  Traveling light and not using a suitcase isn't the main distinction, it's about subculture, without any one clear definition.

Working foreign professionals cover a broad scope:  embassy workers, NGO staff, technical employees (formerly a larger group, before local IT experience and training ramped up), chefs and scuba instructors, etc.  Many yoga instructors seem to be foreigners, and so on, covering a lot of working scope.  A much more negative stereotype relates to mafia types hiding from the law in Thailand.  That's a real thing, but there are probably as many foreign yoga instructors as those gangsters.  Maybe as many expats have some criminal past as the much larger group of English teachers; it would be hard to know.  

Youtubers, like these examples I'm discussing based in China, are kind of a unique subset.  There aren't so many foreigners in Thailand making a living completely off that, but some people definitely are.  I'm not aware of any who are critical of Thailand, making anti-Thailand themed content, and it definitely seems conceivable that anyone in that position could run into trouble getting a visa to stay around at some point.

For any of these individuals in these groups Thailand often seems a wonderful, almost magical place when you first arrive.  Not so much for me, maybe, because I moved here related to marrying a Thai while we both lived in the US, so I was dealing with adjustment tied to that relationship, and then soon enough after with work transition.  If someone arrives with very substantial savings the early period would essentially be a time of vacation, but I moved here right after grad school, when I had been working hard during those studies just to keep student debt in a moderate range.  I needed to keep expenses moderate, and I needed to get back to work, both fairly quickly.  Everything seemed very interesting and novel, maybe just falling short of idealistic.

After a more stable pattern of living off savings, or development of local income, expats are still typically quite positive about Thai culture and local experience.  Why wouldn't they be?  Thai people are friendly, at least superficially, and per my experience generally at a deeper level than that too.  Foods and entertainment themes are diverse, many natural settings are beautiful, and cost of living is low.  It takes years to really explore and understand local culture, so that lower cost factor could help with making it all come together while sorting out cultural integration.

Negative experiences tend to darken perspective, over time.  Divorces come up, or business failures, or other legal problems. In plenty of cases in the past decade foreigners were encouraged to not remain in Thailand due to changes in visa practices.  Some were working illegally, bringing those circumstances on themselves.  To be fair some degree of illegal activity is typically tolerated in Thailand, with teaching English "off the books" (using the wrong visa) not as forbidden in practice as the letter of the law had set it in the past, which then changed.  

Maybe it doesn't matter which category or what personal blame is involved, related to a shifting perspective on Thailand, since in the end it's degree of negative experience in relation to positive ties that define a local foreigner's perspective.  A factor like alcoholism has nothing to do with where someone lives, since that can occur anywhere, but that could lead to dissatisfaction with life circumstances, and a dislike of Thailand, even though the country or culture didn't play much role in that.  Let me be more specific:  if someone moves to Thailand to live out a permanent vacation experience, and they tend to focus on drinking alcohol on vacations, those conditions could easily not work out well in the long run.   

More than all that when one arrives in Thailand it can seem positive to stand out just for being foreign; people find you interesting and different, based only on appearance.  It's perfect for an introvert, because even at a maintained social distance some degree of positive public image is automatically granted.  That could work even more positively for extroverts, to build up social ties.  Later on it could seem much more negative, because it's very difficult to drop that and be included as an ordinary member of a local social circle.  

Being fluent in Thai would be necessary to socially integrate, but that alone would only go so far.  There would be no way to ever truly be seen as a Thai, because a foreigner is a different thing here.  Winston mentions this shift in how one sees host-nation locals as a factor in China in some of his videos, but claims the positive to negative shift relates to being able to understand Chinese later (as some can), and hearing what people say beyond what they express directly.  That's a real thing here too; it would factor in.

A friend back in the US, who is genetically Korean but born and raised in California, seems to face some of the same issues.  He couldn't be more integrated, related to personal history, perspective, and life experience, but he also just can't ever appear to be white.  You would think that the minority half of the US wouldn't care, or most of the white half, in terms of racism (negative bias), but still he blends in a lot better when visiting a Chinatown in a major city than anywhere else, except that he's not Chinese.  Foreigners in Thailand, or surely in China too, can never approach the degree of common ground perspective an Asian native-born American has in America, but he continually deals with how out of place he might feel, depending on circumstances, or the perspective of those around him.

In the end entire expat forums can seem overrun with a consensus view that Thailand is an unfair and harsh place for a foreigner to live.  To be fair getting into any legal trouble in Thailand wouldn't result in the experience of a fair, unbiased justice system judgement.  Thai government systems are biased towards protecting Thais.  Some degree of that is probably relatively universal.

One part of all this pattern relates to integration, to foreigners becoming a connected part of the society they live in, versus re-creating their original life in a different place (which is not directed as a critique of anyone in particular in this case).  A Quora answer about opinions about these China-based Youtubers reminded me of this, and states a summary version of it:

So, as of lately, I feel those guys suffer from the typical issue of so many westerns in China: They come here looking for an experience or money, but they are not really interested to make friends with locals and learn to respect and integrate with them. Some don’t even bother to learn a minimum amount of Chinese for daily life (like how to count from 1 to 10) and only hang-out with other expats in whichever city they live. They create their own bubbles where they typically talk about how much better is this or that back home and how bad is this or that here. Because physical and social differentiation, they slowly but surely end having the opinion that they are made of a better quality material than local people and that pushes farther away from their desire to integrate...

...They fail to realize that China is a country in transition, you have plenty of people you can befriend to, but you need to pick up your friends, just as you would do in any other country. And they fail to realize that a huge amount of Chinese themselves are complaining and fighting to make people with bad habits behave. They fail to realize that Chinese hate being identified and characterized by those people. And they fail to do all that, because in their bubble, if a Chinese is clean, likes to live in a good area, likes to eat healthy food, that is a westernized Chinese, he is not a real Chinese. Those guys are no different from those immigrants going to western countries and living within their self-created ghettoes and complaining the host country people of not allowing them to be part of the society.

Surely only parts of this apply to Winston, but this is all a really common theme that defines most of the negative experience of most foreigners living in Thailand.  The more people integrate into Thai society and adopt Thai perspective and life practices, and make local friends, the more positive their lives tend to be.  The exact opposite described in this citation is probably more common.  The last part about locals being "Westernized Chinese" is a poor fit for how things go here, because Thais are relatively Western enough, as many Chinese people in Shenzhen would be, living relatively modern lifestyles.  Or at least that's my limited input take, from visiting Shenzhen twice, which only amounts to a quick look around.

Tied back to Winston's case

It seems like I'm probably claiming that Winston just experienced the natural cycle of loving China, then seeing more and more of the negative side, eventually getting caught up in that range in personal life circumstances, later becoming biased towards mostly seeing the negative side of China.  To some extent that must have happened.  But is he also fairly reporting on those real negatives, in an unbiased fashion, or does he emphasize them even further to cater to anti-Chinese sentiment, and viewership? I don't know.  Maybe not, but what I could even mean by "unbiased" I'm not clear on myself.  Every human perspective involves biases as a foundational basic context for experience.  What else would a worldview be like?

Someone could be unusually positive and optimistic, turning a blind eye to the negative factors that shape the local world around them.  Focusing on the positive instead of the negative anywhere is probably healthy enough, a good thing.  Americans probably shouldn't worry too much about crime or random shootings, or political divides (not that you could hope to completely escape all of it).  

The pandemic is an exception; it's a reasonable time to put risk assessment and resolution towards the center of your worldview and life practices, anywhere in the world.  Thais definitely don't feel overburdened by limitations of Thai social systems or government, as I see it.  Then again it's easy to conflate a tendency to only show the positive in public and a truly ingrained live and let live / "mai ben rai" attitude.  The more integrated one becomes in Thai society the more "in on" how those levels of what you express or conceal work.  To be clear I'm not implying that I'm at the far side of the scale for being socially integrated here, and it's probably as well to skip that particular tangent since my own status doesn't really shed light on the rest of the range.

In conclusion

This doesn't land on tidy conclusions.  All the patterns I've discussed here seem to make it possible for people to experience roughly the same set of two different online perspectives and interpret them very differently.

For having two friends living in China, one of whom is out now, I've not heard of how all this sorts out, from either.  The one living there I can't discuss this with; he couldn't talk freely about it over social media messages, even DM versions.  The other one seems more concerned with his own day to day issues than these kinds of broad social patterns.  If he had needed to leave China due to such conflict he would have strong opinions about it, but per my understanding it wasn't like that.  I think he did experience dissatisfaction with some form of local academic work culture, but university culture and politics can be a real mess in the US too; it's typically like that.  Corporate politics and government work too, for that matter; it's just human nature everywhere.  If you end up working in a comfortable and stress-free environment that's an exception.

I would be surprised if Winston didn't play out a similar pattern in the US, talking about how free and open society is there, about how opposing political inclinations are potentially stressful, but no big deal in relation to repression of free speech and other human rights.  Then years later media misinformation, political spin, government program biases and unfairness, legal system issues, racism, varying levels of access to medical care, and so on will become problems, or at least concerns.  Gradually the US won't seem all that ideal either.  The first time a random shooting occurs near him that will seem pressing, and personal.  Then either a shift to acceptance will happen, or at least a move towards some degree of isolation, or he will be on to some European country to go through it all again.  Maybe they really do have it all sorted out in Scandinavia.

Oddly I wrote that draft section before seeing a video by him on how much Americans whine / complain too much about everything.  It's started.  I suppose that I agree, but then I'm not posting Youtube videos about it, which serve as a basis for my income.  He might need to narrow his expressed views down to supporting a conservative or liberal take on things, if he's going to be critical of American culture, and intends to retain one half of all Americans as an audience.  The anti-China themes will probably resonate better with conservatives, which for me would be an unfortunate group perspective to try to align with.  I see the most typical liberal perspective as wrong about how it all maps out, unclear about context, and essentially wrong about half the issues, but they're still partly right.  I'm from a conservative area and sub-culture, originally, so I kind the other side, but not as much.

I had planned to add links within this text to point towards more source content about those two sets of views but it seems as well to list it separately afterwards.

Winston (Serpent ZA) and "" anti-pro-China Youtuber video links

#65 China Is Getting Worse | Laowhy86 and SerpentZA:  an anti-Chinese government podcast hosts Winston and "C-milk" (Matt), explaining their own story and transition from pro-China to focusing on problems in China related to the Chinese government, speech restrictions, and nationalist perspective.  Obviously it's biased and a bit revised (it's them), but a decent summary.

Why I Left China For Good:  Winston explains why he left

TRAITORS working for Communist Chinese Government?:  Winston explains "his side" in the conflict with other foreign Youtubers over them promoting local tourism, or also allegedly potentially covering up flooding issues through misdirection

Canadian Michael Spavor is NOT a SPY! - Held as hostage in China:  Winston / Serpent ZA explains how his friend being charged with spying in China is really not a spy.  I'm not sure how he would know that, since a spy would try act like they're not a spy, but it's still interesting.

What does it really feel like to be a foreigner in China? (a 2010 early post by Serpent ZA / Winston)

I'm QUITTING my job!:  in July 2016 Winston quit teaching English (not really exactly how he framed that, but it's honest work) to switch to a marriage visa.  He had 60,000 subscribers right around that time, and per his own statement in this first video Youtube became his main job.  His words:  "if I do the kind of videos that you guys, the subscribers, are interested in, then I can actually make a success out of it..."  It's not as if he never posted anything remotely critical of China before, as covered in this March 2012 video "China,  How Is It -- Topics to Avoid."  

To be fair he didn't immediately change over to post much more negative content about China to draw views just then; it wasn't like that.  Topics seemed geared towards drawing an audience more, hitting on popular themes that people might connect with versus just culture and life experience, or even obvious clickbait, like Are Chinese Girls Easy? 

top posts by views.  click-bait topics seem fine to me, catering to what audiences want to see.

Then about three to four years ago Winston's posts seemed to delve into negative sides of China even more.  This included cultural divide issues, scams, kidnapping, health risks, his own politics related problems, and so on, ramping up further about two years ago, going into sensitive issues like international politics and pollution (which he must have intentionally avoided covering prior to that, although that would be easier to avoid focus on in Shenzhen than some other cities).

To be clear on the framing I find Winston to represent a reasonable, grounded, and sympathetic but biased opining (perhaps even a flawed one in some cases).  It all works, he just seems to get caught up in one limited perspective orientation at a time.  It's probably also that you can't really present issues from a few different perspectives in a short video very easily.  A summary take on anything would need to be simple.  

I suppose he crosses the line a little in shifting from so pro-China to so opposed to such a broad range, when the same mix of positives and negatives probably haven't changed that much in the last decade. His life experiences have changed, and his focus along with that.  China was already evil a decade ago, and the same positives exist now as back then, with only limited parts of what the CCP is doing relating to the evil empire theme.  Maybe it is worse now.  If you interpret what Winston is saying as ingenuine, adjusted to cater to a limited audience, then his communicated perspective seems less valid, but I think he really has undergone the shift he passes on.  Then I also suppose that if Thailand threw me out of the country in the next month or two my statements about Thailand wouldn't be quite as positive and balanced. 

Other foreign Youtubers critical of China

Why I Changed my Opinion on China:  Laowhy / C-milk / Matt's take on his changing perspective on China (Winston's fellow podcaster, travel companion, and documentary developer).

China's Weird YouTube Propaganda (the MT Right blog):  a Youtuber reviews pro-China Youtubers, claiming that these are directly supported by the CCP as propaganda outlets.  Maybe, or maybe not; seems a bit heavy on conspiracy theory putting it that way.

Chinese Propaganda on YouTube (ft. serpentza & laowhy86):  a Russian Youtube video blogger defends Winston and "C-milk."  There's not much new in this but it's interesting how others either feel compelled to weigh in, or else at least draw Youtube clicks by repeating the same ideas.

Pro-China anti-SerpentZA foreign Youtuber perspective

SerpentZa, Laowhy86, Lies, Deceit & Propaganda, by JaYoe Nation (Matt), with his own website here:  "This video is a rebuttal and explanation for the lies and misrepresentations made against me and my friend for the recent trip we took to Chongqing."  Really this is just addressing one part of one issue, but it all seems to work, that the one travel promotion case didn't necessarily involve playing a role in broader Chinese politics or political spin.

We are the White Monkeys of Big Bad CHINA // 我们是在中国的白猴子:  Barrett (the other pro-China anti-SerpentZA bloggers, more or less) explains his take on why promoting Chinese tourism isn't the same as promoting China in the sense of political involvement.  It kind of works, but it's only a one-sided explanation of one part of the general context.  This "white monkey" concept is about jobs in China for foreigners, in the role of being a foreigner, which in some forms would seem like accepting exploitation and in others no different than any other marketing promotion role.

SerpentZA Exposed as a Fraud!:  a fairly extremist and pro-China foreign video blogger's take on Winston, rejecting his positions on China and portrayal of his own work history.  It does seem like Winston was probably an English teacher, which he kind of indirectly rejects in different ways but never really completely denies, but teaching English isn't such a bad thing.  He says he trained doctors, and he was teaching them English; fair enough.  Adjusting or spinning your own biography isn't a great sign, but it doesn't mean that the other parts about China are wrong.  Framing about some other issues might be getting adjusted as suits Winston's present concerns.  But then that may also be true of all these other bloggers, that pre-conceptions and intended narratives are being communicated more than any bare objective truths.  Or maybe communication in general is always like that. 

Winston Sterzel, SerpentZA:  Matt's take on Winston, as of March 2021.  It's pretty much what you would expect, nothing too controversial or novel, he disagrees with a general negative framing of China.

China Flood:  again Matt (the Jayoe Nation guy) did post several videos covering flood issues in that broad region in China.

The Heart of the True Global Conspiracy (Matt / Jayoe Nation again):  he explains his position that instead of left versus right or China versus the US being the real concern, or source of underlying conflict, it's all really about the wealthy and powerful trying to gain more wealth and power, everywhere.  That's pretty much how I see it.   Off the subject of what he's talking about, Chinese government is putting out pro-China propaganda, but that's just one form of many types of spin and influence.  The larger problem is that to some degree most societies aren't set up to support the common good, or at least that's definitely true of countries like China, the US, Russia, and Thailand.  This stops short of directly addressing "the American Dream," if it's ok for people to want to own a house and a car and have two kids.  One part is about what wealthy people are doing, but it connects that everyone else wants to own more too.

The Jayoe video blog / Youtube channel is also nice as a travel blog, worth clicking around related to that.  It's really that context that makes sense of him keeping his political statements limited; it's not a politically oriented blog.  His earlier theme had been bike-touring the world, which just stalled as a stay in China due to the pandemic.  That's surely not all about him saying what he needs to say--or not say--to stay online in the country, but likely as much about what he finds interesting and wishes to discuss.  

Talking about free speech issues or use of propaganda really is only practical for bloggers or Youtubers based outside of China.  Winston knew that, and made the shifts in what he communicated over time for the reasons I've already described.  To me it makes for a more interesting story, following multiple perspectives and levels of the same issues like that.  To some extent the pro-China bloggers might go a bit far in cleaning up what they say, or how they say it, but it's not so difficult to put it all in the proper context.  I doubt that any are serving in any role remotely like that of a paid spy, but it spices up the exchanges mixing in allegations like that.