Experiences with offsetting aging effects

This theme came up from discussion in a Reddit aging related sub-group, here.  The title for that post was "experiences with reversing aging," which this title version probably corrects a bit.  You can really offset some of the effects, maybe even reversing what is regarded as an irreversible outcome in some cases, but in general it's about positively affecting general health, not turning back the clock.  

To me it's not about aesthetics, but it could be for others.  It also doesn't tie so closely to health markers, from doing bloodwork (general health assessment), but I did just check those results within the last couple of months, and they look ok.  I missed the last two company health checks or I could've assessed changes.  I've started fasting practices and have escalated running volume over the last 2 1/2 years; those recent markers should be better than earlier ones.

Let's start with that post; it also includes limited intro, so a lot of that would be overdoing it:

It's not really one of my things, as it is with Bryan Johnson and those other typically sketchy aging research guys, but I've had limited experience with seeing the effects of aging reverse. My hair was greying some years ago, and it has almost entirely returned to the original color. To be more specific my son counted 13 grey hairs about two years ago, and there are just a few at my lower temple now.

To back up a little I'm 56. In some other ways, partly related to appearance, I haven't aged as fast as I might, with my skin holding up decently, not using reading glasses, still exercising, etc. I can't know direct causes but I'll speculate about that here.

I took up periodic fasting just over 2 years ago, now fasting 5 days at a time, 4 times a year, but it was more that first year, nearly a month in total. I've been running a lot for 3 or 4 years, but I've levelled off at being able to run 10 km three times a week; I can't seem to recover from more than that. I don't know if it makes a difference but I've been eating a little goji berry most days for a number of years (said to help maintain eye health). I've improved my diet quite a bit based on resetting it related to fasting, and have been keeping up with sleep for years. A long cycle of meditation practice may have helped with memory issues.

I have kids, and had them late, so most of that didn't apply in my 40s. I was definitely out of shape over that decade, not exercising much, but I stayed active. I suspect that being a little underweight during my 20s and 30s, related to being a vegetarian then, may have been an earlier cause for slower aging.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend that people try to suspend aging, but maintaining exceptional health seems reasonable.

Feb. 2025; looking a bit middle-aged, ok for 56

The "typically sketchy" part, about aging researchers, relates to them often seeming to package a product as much as search for answers for the benefit of society.  It's as well to not get side-tracked on that critique; parts of the research must hold up to further review, and will benefit many people.

Commentary

That group focus on a narrow range helped shaped what I tried to communicate there, on aging as affecting appearance and some narrow ranges of health.  Without that group-location framing I'd tend to focus more on discussion of just improving health, in general.  I'm also in a biohacking group on Reddit, which I might comment in but never post to, which would be more concerned with supplements, especially experimental versions.  Some people there see fasting as a functional form of biohacking.

Since I don't know the cause and effect sequences of making a few lifestyle input changes it's all vague enough.  I think fasting made a lot of difference, but any positive changes could have related mainly to better diet and getting more exercise.  I'll run through some potential positive changes in more detail here.

Life and location change as a possible input:  three years ago my family moved our kids to Honolulu, Hawaii to go to school here instead of Bangkok, intending to relocate my work, which never worked out.  I've been back and forth since, spending most of my time still in Bangkok, and working remotely part of the time.  

It may be that living a more active life in Hawaii changes things, even though I've only been spending 3 months a year here, while they spend 9.  I swam a lot this spring (in March through the end of May); an input like that couldn't hurt.  "A lot" is relative; I was swimming about 500 meters about 3 days a week, in the open ocean, out to a flag and back in a swim lane.  My son trains for competitive swimming and his daily practices cover a lot more distance, every day versus my weekly total.

out for an early run around Diamondhead

I swim out to that flag, and see turtles there (tourist for scale)

Diamondhead from my daughter's former school

Genetic factors:  one input I see as relating to appearing younger is kind of a random thing:  I have oily skin.  If I don't shower twice a day I end up looking a bit greasy, while living in a warm or hot climate.  That may be relatively equivalent to people using a lot of moisturizer in a cooler and dryer place (which I don't use).  My sister also looks quite young, also in her 50s, and good genetics for aging gradually probably go well beyond that.

these guys are holding up well

Food preferences probably have a lot of effect, along with eating what might be considered a good diet.  The luck of the draw might factor in, related to the former.  Thai food is typically based on natural, whole foods, not involving that much processing, even though use of frying and addition of some sugar does come up. 

I drink an awful lot of tea; it's odd that I didn't mention that in passing in that post.  I've considered before that beyond some polyphenols potentially supporting health, or offsetting aging effects, just ingesting extra minerals every day might make a difference.  Tea plants collect and store minerals, in addition to some contaminants, so I may be keeping topped up on a range of minerals.  Who knows about effects beyond that; maybe it is unusually healthy.

I started drinking coffee again within the last 6 months.  I can't imagine that's having a lot of effect either way, especially since I never drink more than one large cup a day (maybe 10 to 12 ounces), but it's an example of how other inputs keep shifting.  I last meditated regularly nearly two years ago; that's another example of ongoing changes.

Supplements, including anti-aging supplements:  I mostly take a multivitamin, magnesium, and D when I'm not getting that much sun.  I was also taking fish oil for awhile, and replace some salt intake with a potassium chloride based salt product; that's about it.

I also eat some goji berries most days, which is said to contain zeaxanthin, one of two compounds that promote eye health (along with lutein).  My wife said that it would help with eye health and hair loss, but who knows about traditional Thai medical claims.  It seemed like a bit of extra vitamin A couldn't hurt; those are supposedly a good source of that.

There are a broad range of other supplement or drug compounds being developed and tested now, but I don't really investigate those much, never mind taking any.  I'm more ok with aging normally than being a test subject, even though I am concerned enough about health to put effort into all of it.

Recommendations, and justification for them

Exercise:  there's no need to justify endorsing exercise, right?  I can add that running just a little early in my practice, starting nearly 7 years ago, seemed to make a lot of difference, but my cardio conditioning only improved once I ramped up volume.  I run 20 miles / 30 km a week when I'm more active, and maybe two thirds of that when I'm inconsistent, with some extra multiple week periods "off" in the past year or so.  I was more consistent and diligent before moving back and forth to Hawaii made that difficult.  It's not about making the time, or jet-lag disruption, but instead valuing the time with my kids in a different way after we re-unite.

If I run consistently for about 6 weeks my conditioning will change a good bit right around that time, but if I run consistently for only a month it won't.  I'm not implying that your health would change a lot, if you could lean into it all for 2 to 3 months.  Maybe that's true, and probably race conditioning works like that, but I don't know what supports general health well enough, versus what will "drop time" on training paces.

Fasting:  I suspect that fasting makes a lot of difference, but I'm not completely sold on hearsay related to autophagy, the process of your body recycling mis-folded proteins or whatever other damaged material.  Supposedly this always occurs in your body, and helps offset varying long term health issues, but vigorous exercise triggers more of it, or fasting for around 48 hours or longer does.  But if you try to look up research papers linking that this does occur, and that it relates to specific health-related outcomes, it's not easy making the connections.  

Again this isn't a claim either way.  I suspect that I am slightly mentally clearer related to periodic extended fasting, but who knows.  You could observe what you expect to, to some extent.  I also feel like I have more energy when running, that maybe greater "metabolic flexibility" helps with that, training my body to also use fat as an energy source.  I don't mind at all when meals run late, or skipping one is fine; I'm a lot less constrained by habitual eating now.

Diet changes:  my diet was never bad enough for me to see change effects in the same way someone moving off a truly bad diet could.  I took up being a vegetarian over 30 years ago, and tried to eat a healthy, balanced diet based on essentially no actual meat input for that next 17 years.  I was the "lacto-ovo" type; I still ate dairy and eggs, thinking that it would help me avoid deficiencies.  Then I think the deficiencies did enter in, around 13 years ago now, and my immune system stopped working normally.  I had been fine for that first decade, living in the US, watching my diet and eating supplements to help, but after I moved to Thailand I ate meat-based dishes without the meat, and it wasn't the same.  More idle speculation, probably, but that was my take.

So I'm describing improving an already pretty decent diet over the last few years, already based on input of plenty of fruits and vegetables, and whole grains, along with good quality meats input.  I've not eaten much for junk food, processed snacks, and fast food for a long time, with the exception of eating a good bit of ice cream.  Moving back to the US did add some challenges, since it's easy to appreciate different kinds of snack foods, that weren't options back in Thailand.  Those tubs of chocolate chip cookie dough are nice; I may have noticed the input of eating that on my body weight and cholesterol score.

Summary perspective:  the implied claim here, in all of this, is that I feel like I'm really 30 or 40, and not 56, and I guess that sort of holds up.  My exercise recovery is a lot slower; it's all that I can do to recover from around 30 km of running a week (20 miles), which to me doesn't seem like that much.  I switched to 12 km runs here in Honolulu, with hill sections (running around Diamondhead), and I could keep that up indefinitely on an 8-day, 3 run cycle, but not quite 3 times a week.  With more conditioning I could've got there; I was trying to ramp up and maintain that within a 2 month or so cycle.  But it's hard to make changes to training volume or intensity at this age, and I've experienced very minor injuries before that highlight that those can only occur gradually.

I guess that I feel fine.  I keep busy and active, walking a lot, doing many other things, and never feel like it's too much.  I don't notice much for aches and pains, or digestive system changes, or whatever else.  I really did feel less clear in my early 40s, when I was still adjusting to a busy office-life experience, but adding running seems to have resolved some of that.

I wouldn't consider TRT / HRT because all of that seems fine to me.  I don't see anything wrong with others making that choice, but I don't experience any of the other symptoms it's supposed to correct for (low energy, mood issues, problems with exercise, body composition, or sexual function, etc.).

Recommendations:  I should close this by recommending truly low-hanging fruit, what I think would make the most difference the fastest.  It's diet change.  For people accustomed to drinking soda just dropping that out would make a lot of difference.  Drinking water should be fine, or tea or coffee as a healthy input, or tisanes, herb teas.  Maybe drinking enough water alone would make a difference, versus falling short daily, or just getting enough sleep.

Changing diet could relate to making small, periodic changes, like swapping out fast food for cooking healthy natural food versions, or chips for nuts, or maybe replacing processed deserts with fruit.  Fasting makes this easy, because it's easy to see each break and renewed eating cycle as a reset.  But there must be other ways to push the same effect, like making a few small changes at the start of every month.  I "only" fast about 20 days a year, so not a high proportion, and I've gained weight over the past two years, so using fasting to lose weight would require a more specific focus on that.

Listening to your body is important.  The amount of sleep that's enough would vary by person.  Poor diet inputs or unusually helpful inputs also would vary by person in relation to positive or negative impact.  Related to exercise more would be better up to a point, but at middle age injury is an early warning sign that you're progressing too fast, and that's no good.

Being open to life changes may make a difference.  Of course it would help if those are positive.  I went through a period of meditating a lot, the second I've experienced in my life, and that seemed to help.  Getting a new pet can change things in a positive way (although losing one can also be really rough).  Life connections and activities seem to make a lot of difference.

Having kids late seemed to help.  I've been playing in kids' play areas for years (14 or 15), going to water parks, ice skating (a lot; the kids took lessons), biking and hiking with them, and so on.  That decade off exercise involved a lot of activity.  Some of it is just mental, not seeing yourself as sedentary and inactive, but it seems important for that to connect to physical activity.  I don't think it needs to be all that strenuous; hanging out laundry or doing gardening could be enough, to maintain flexibility through varied movement.

my other babies; I miss them terribly, while I'm away for this month

Beyond all of this I think accepting long-term transitions like aging is helpful.  You can focus on health, and change that, and some "symptoms" might diminish.  But in general life is about change, and walking a changing path, so feeling negatively about that context could be unhelpful.  Leaning into whatever activity works for you could tie in with feeling positive about your capacity, and enjoying different activities.  We--as a family, essentially--took up pickleball this year; it's nice when those can involve some limited exercise.

more on this here, especially relevant to people in Honolulu

good experience of meaning can't hurt

2022 Bangwai and 2021 Bulang gushu sheng pu'er

 

I'm reviewing two more of what should be fantastic gushu sheng pu'er from Tea Mania.  Again these are mini-discs, not the ideal form for brewing, but it works, and with practice it works well.

I've been trying Bulang versions some lately, but of course that range could vary.  I might seem to imply understating origin as an input to flavor and other character, even though I claim that the two connect, and that there are regional consistencies, probably more pronounced the more local the area is under consideration.  It's just that I don't memorize a matrix of past impressions, and derived general expectations.  For the Bangwai even that wouldn't apply; I may or may not have ever tried a version from there, and don't know where that is within a broader region.  I'm fine with only passing on an impression, as a primary review practice, but it seems a bit like sloppy work.  

Of course I'll compare this a little to Bulang versions I've tried in the past month, but even then not much.

Bangwai Gushu 2022  ($117 USD for 200 grams; equivalent to a $209 357 gram cake)

The Bangwai Gushu is celebrated for its meticulous, traditional handmade processing and the selective use of the finest tea leaves. This dedication to quality is evident in every sip, making it a treasured choice among collectors. Due to the limited availability, Pu-erh teas from the Bangwai region are released in small quantities each year, adding to their exclusivity and allure.

Ideal for long-term aging, thi tea is a tea connoisseur’s delight, known to develop richer and more complex aromas over time. Its robust character and evolving taste profile make it a remarkable choice for those who appreciate the depth and intricacy of Pu-erh teas.

Harvest: Spring 2022...

Aroma: Spicy, much Cha Qi and sweet finish

Terroir: Bangwai, Lancang prefecture, Yunnan province, China...

Tip: This Bangwai tea is ideal to mature a few years

Bulang Gushu 2021 Balanced  (the same price as the other cake, 95 CHF, $117 for 200 grams)

Harvest date: Spring 2021

Pressed: 2021

Typ: Sheng

Taste: Strong, intense and deep

Terroir: Bulang Mountain, Xishuangbanna prefecture, Yunnan province, China

There is a bitter version and "balanced" version listed, and I'm guessing that this was balanced, since it's really not all that bitter.  I guess it's possible that 4 years of aging transition changed it a lot, and it could have been, and it might be the other one, but probably not.

[later editing note: per discussion with Peter, the owner, it was probably the bitter version, which did emerge more in the late rounds (that flavor aspect).  But it was probably a good bit more bitter when new.]

There isn't much more description of the tea there, just some related background (only sampled):

This exquisite Bulang Gushu is a product of the collaborative craftsmanship of teamaster Panda and Yang Ming, crafted exclusively for us with a keen understanding of our fondness for Bulang teas. Reminiscent of the legendary 2015 Bulang Gushu, which we still fondly remember and has long been sold out, this tea promises a similar allure.

Echoing the legacy of both the 2015 Bulang and the esteemed 5-Village Blend, this Bulang Gushu shares a unique connection – it is sourced from the tea fields of a former school friend of Yang Ming.

These teas are really good, and they may well be very type-typical for this origin and general style.  It doesn't work very well for a vendor to add lots of flavor list, because in the 4 years this aged that probably changed some.  Interpretations vary so much that I'm sympathetic to vendors skipping adding much initially, even as an early snapshot.  They need to say something, but the flavor-list approach is problematic.

Review:

2022 Bangwai:  I let these infuse for about a minute, to start opening up.  Unless you really pry the tea apart it will brew somewhat unevenly, with the outside starting early, and being relatively far along the transition cycle by the time the center is even wetted.  I can accept that; it doesn't throw off results much, it just changes them a little.

Feel has nice creaminess, even though this is still too light to clearly identify a lot of flavor.  It's in a floral general range.  It's bright and clean, probably with decent complexity, and pleasant sweetness.  The effect seems quite fresh; 3 years isn't that long, in moderately dry and cool storage.  More description to follow next round.

2021 Bulang:  a warmer tone is included in this.  It also expresses quite a bit of feel, for being so light, but it's different.  The other was light in tone and creamy, and this contains some structure already, a vague hint of dryness.  There's a really catchy flavor that I can't make out yet, and good overall balance.  These aren't the kind of teas where you throw out half of the early infusion that you don't make out as clearly; they're already quite good.

At the risk of brewing them a bit strong I'll give them another minute to infuse, and while they won't be completely wetted yet by the third round they'll be brewing more normally.  Two full minutes of infusion time is a lot, for that outer layer, but to me it's not as if the time the tea spends wet (under water) is the only brewing it does; it seems to continue to extract into the moisture in the leaf between those cycles anyway.

2022 Bangwai #2:  the Bulang version opened up a lot more.  It's interesting that the topic of how hard pressed a tea coin is never occurred to me before.  And I suppose I expect dragonball shapes to be really tightly pressed too, in a relatively uniform way.  Of course that could vary.

Warmer mineral depth comes out more than I expected.  Bright, fresh, sweet, floral tones are present, but the overall character is layered, and not light and bright in tone, more medium.  It integrates well.  It's still a bit creamy, but those warm tones and slightly more structured feel change overall character.  Beyond the vague floral description, and mineral, there is a substantial richness to the flavor, matching the feel, I guess along the line of macadamia nut.  It's really clean and complex, well-integrated, so an impression of quality comes across.

2021 Bulang:  this is a little strong (where the other hadn't been yet).  Dryness stands out more, and a very different warm mineral layer.  In this it resembles cedar, or maybe an incense spice.  That catchy aspect may have been a fruitiness, that's hard to identify, along with the cedar or spice tone.

2022 Bangwai #3:  light; I dropped back time a lot, maybe too much for this version, at this level of leaf separation.  I'll pull it apart for the next round.

Flavor is still bright, clean, and somewhat complex, even though it's subtle.

2021 Bulang:  this balances really well, brewed to a proper infusion strength.  That catchy aspect is some sort of fruit, along with a spice tone.  I should be able to describe that fruit tone better than I can.  Maybe it includes floral range, a mix, that is integrated, making it harder to separate.

2022 Bangwai #4:  this is an unusual experience, how it comes across as quite complex and also quite subtle (lacking intensity, I guess, put another way).  The rich flavor might be in the range of butter cookie instead of macadamia nut, or between the two.  Bright floral range is quite limited, but it still seems to be an input.  There is a mineral layer, it's just light, both in the sense of being light in tone and also not strong.  Somehow it comes across as fresh, and refined.

Bitterness is quite limited; as a sheng drinker, who is often appreciating even younger versions, I don't really notice it.  Maybe to someone more into oolong that would actually stand out some.

2021 Bulang:  stronger, for sure.  Bitterness is much more pronounced, and warm mineral, some degree of floral, and range I'm interpreting as both spice (or aromatic wood, cedar or redwood, maybe sandalwood) and some limited dried fruit all give it great complexity, and intensity.  There's a lot going on.  For sure the bitterness was a good bit stronger 4 years ago, and tones brighter.  This has mellowed into a very pleasant and drinkable character.  

It's interesting considering how this compares to a Legend of Tea Malaysia stored 2021 Bulang, reviewed here, three weeks ago.  It has been a long three weeks; that feels like over a month.  The write-up sounds pretty similar; the same basic flavor profile is expressed.  This is probably cleaner and more refined, and slightly lighter in tone.  I'm not sure it works to guess that it's better, but in a limited sense that's probably true, at a minimum related to preference for one type of character, and maybe to some extent in general.  This definitely lacks rough edges.  That tea had a sappy, perfume-like feel and associated flavor range; this sort of does, but probably not to that degree.  That tea was really good, exceptional for the price-point, and the quality of this is probably even better.  Or maybe it's that it is made in a more drinkable style, which is a different thing.

Put another way, expressed in more detail, that probably started out as more intense, with rougher edges, more bitterness and astringency, and had transitioned more by the time I tried it, perhaps arriving at a slightly warmer tone range.  For people more accustomed to factory tea that context and style could be better.  This might ring a bell more with people more on the page of boutique-style, drinkable when young tea versions, that are clean, sweet, and balanced, but not challenging, I suppose "giving up structure and intensity," if someone sees it that way.

2022 Bangwai #5:  this integrates all the better this round, with warmer spice tone entering in, resembling one part of the other tea.  Complexity and intensity really ramped up.  Maybe because I finally got timing right, and it's all wetted and brewing now?  It's not as if this has been challenging to brew, since results were really positive before, I'm just getting variation out of it.

Bitterness doesn't really stand out much, as sheng experience goes, but a little more of it balances nicely.  At least I can notice it.  The butter cookie / macadamia expression is nice, and light floral range, that I'm not really covering as much.

2021 Bulang:  perfume-like nature and sappiness ramp up; interesting.  Maybe because I'm looking for that?  But in that earlier review--of a different 2021 Bulang sheng--it ramped up across a number of infusions, as just occurred.  Dryness picks up a little too, but this is far from dry.  "Sappy" works.

Even though I'm in between the kids being here and the next travel step (I'll go back to Honolulu the day after tomorrow) I'm still busy, with a list of a few things to do to get ready, so again I'll cut this short.  One more round will work for catching final thoughts, or whatever I've missed.  Of course these teas are going strong, and will brew at least as many more rounds later, and of course I'll miss a couple of minor aspect transitions.

2022 Bangwai #6:  full, creamy, complex, and well-balanced, with flavors not so different than last round.  This flavor set, and other aspects, works really well for my preference.  Sometimes I'm describing a flavor range that could be fine, or even exceptional, but it just doesn't click with me as well as this does (like root-spice range sometimes doesn't).  This could even be interpreted as heavy on root spice, but it would be a light ginseng sassafras fullness, not a heavier bark spice oriented range, something more medicinal.

2021 Bulang:  brewed fast this round this is exceptional.  Intensity and complexity is great in both, and again this flavor and other aspect set seems very appealing to me.  Clean, balanced, and refined character is great.

So which is better, either in terms of general quality or a match to my preference?  Both are pleasant in novel ways.  The Bulang isn't challenging, at all, but it's more intense, and heavier in flavor range, with more bitterness offsetting that flavor set.  It's far from straight floral tones; the spice or aromatic wood tone might be even stronger, at this stage.  It all makes perfect sense together, to me.  These are in a great place for aging transition to integrate well just now.

It's all as I expected.  Really high expectations can be a challenge for a tea to be reviewed against, because any minor flaw or less favorable balance would stand out all the more.  Then when a tea is great it's just meeting those expectations; there is no exceeding them.  Even a novel flavor input or atypically positive feel aspect can only seem normal, if you go into it expecting a tea to be great.

There's a lot going on with these, so that I've cut short feel and aftertaste range descriptions.  There's some background noise as well; my wife is talking to our kids online about first week of school preparations (they just ended it, but hanging details remain, needing an extra binder or highlighter, and getting jet-lag sorted out).  I might've even added a couple more flavor aspect descriptions without that distraction.  This will do; the teas were great, as described.

Further conclusions:

Describing these as "really good" seems a bit limited.  They are, and the aspects seemed like what I've listed, but the clean nature, complexity, depth, and refinement are hard to pin down in a description.  This pricing may be more than I'd end up spending even if I had a loose budget, instead of very little of one to work with, but I get it why people open to that would drink teas like these.

It's hard to guess about longer term aging potential.  For as good as these are now I'd drink them right now, or within a year or so.  For someone with a wide open budget buying one to drink and one to age might be a good strategy.  That only goes so far, for these being sold as 200 gram cakes.  You could drink through one fast, if you weren't rationing it.  Which could work out; it's good tea.

I'm traveling now, for a month, and already miss them terribly

not exactly bonding, but at least Myra is adjusting to them being around

Sheng pu'er aging transition patterns: bringing it all together

 

I've been writing a good bit about this subject lately, related to trying a couple more sample sets.  But it has been a running theme for the past decade or so, even though I really only completely switched over to mostly drinking sheng pu'er within that time, maybe something like 8 years ago.

I still only guess about transition patterns, and the effects of varying storage environments on teas of different character, expressing different aspects.  But I've been guessing about it for a long time, based on varying exposure.  I first bought sheng right around the time I started this blog, maybe within a year of then, so I've been dabbling in that exploration for around a dozen years (or looking back the first post about sheng pu'er was 13 years ago).  

It's interesting thinking back to how badly some of those initial trials went, the earliest of which wouldn't have been covered here (although buying that one cake 13 years ago was an early venture).  It's no wonder lots of people don't like sheng early on, given how new factory teas or bad versions can go.

I'll separate this out by individual topics to make them approachable.  These won't be in any particular order, maybe starting with more of what comes up first, and some of what I like best.  

The context that I've been trying two different sample sets recently is interesting; that never goes exactly how I expect.  One was from a favorite vendor, mostly newish versions of "gushu" from a Swiss vendor, Tea Mania, and the other was known Yunnan area versions from a Malaysian vendor, of even more varying age, with storage occurring there adding an interesting twist.  Final outcome is always complicated, and in between 3 and 4 years or 15 to 20 there's a broad range of fermentation levels that make less sense, that vary a lot by starting point.  It would be nice if I could summarize that more clearly than I'm able to.

wet versus dry versus natural storage:  this is really a better topic for an entire 1500 word post on the one storage conditions input.  But I'm limiting this discussion to quickly framing a lot of related inputs, so it makes sense to only add a little about it here.  I don't necessarily think that cooler and dryer storage is really a bad thing, but that kind of environment does preserve tea, slowing it from changing in any way.  Maybe a slow, gradual change is better under some circumstances, and there might be typical negative trade-offs related to that, other aspect input experienced as less favorable.  A limited sourness or cardboard flavor can come up in dry-stored teas, but long-term storage in cardboard boxes may be a part of that.  

For factory tea, aggressive, intense, unapproachable tea that really needs at least 15 years to be approachable, more humid storage is better.  The effect of temperature can be a bit complicated; reading up on some Late Steeps blog post experiments on that is interesting.  I think teas I keep in Bangkok change fast and change differently because of both the humidity and the heat, but I can't really break that down, even to the extent he does there based on testing.  The heat might cause heavier flavor range to emerge, just to add something.

I've not really said much about more conventional cases; what about boutique style teas, or factory teas that aren't as clearly in need of lots of transition, as a Dayi 7542 cake or Xiaguan tuo demand?  How variations of styles and character age in general is a bit complicated, and my own guesses aren't much of a clearly acceptable baseline.  I'll add more about types and get back to those later on.

factory tea:  this is what people encounter first, not my own main preference.  Dayi / 
Taetea 7542 is a main example (a "recipe" number), and Xiaguan tuocha versions I see as the other main example (and the cakes they produce).  This general style, as much as it represents one, typically requires a full 20 years of aging to enter a pleasant and drinkable range, and under conventional conditions 30 years might be better.  You can get away with rushing that when hot and humid storage conditions rush the process, as occurs here in Bangkok, or someone maintaining high humidity in a cooler place would work, just not in the same way.  I think the faster transitions happen the better for these teas, since in cooler and dryer storage they may not be well-transitioned even after 30 years.

The change is what people expect, what they think of related to pu'er transition in general:  harsh, astringent, bitter and intense general character gives way to smoother, deeper, warmer tones, that is much more drinkable.  There is no partially aged stage that also makes sense for most factory teas, in general, as occurs for versions that can be exceptional with some rough edges smoothed out, after "only" 3 to 5 years of limited change.  Then again that's probably a statement about my own preference, over-extended a bit related to what could possibly occur.  There was just a Reddit thread about someone liking some 5 year old Dayi 7542, and that preference opinion isn't invalid.

nearly 20 year old Xiaguan, aging fast due to storage time in Bangkok

A truism comes up that aging won't turn bad tea into good tea.  This can be taken as meaning completely different things, all of which may only apply to a limited extent.  One potential meaning is that if a tea tastes bad originally it may never recover from being of bad quality (which already mixes different inputs as assumptions).  A limitation of this is that aging potential doesn't necessarily always relate to a tea being approachable when young; factory teas are the main counter-example of this.  Another factor is that maybe being approachable when young relates to good aging potential, and maybe it doesn't.  Considering the relatively opposite style of sheng categories can help place this.

drinkable when young pu'er:  this is the opposite extreme.  It's not really a single, unified category, because sheng can be more drinkable for a number of different reasons.  Autumn harvest versions can lack intensity, or more wild origin material can seem quite different, less bitter and astringent, and quite flavorful.  Processing variations could lead towards this general nature, but the result wouldn't be the same as when these other two causes were primary.  Breaking this range down by these distinct inputs makes sense, even when they would tend to combine, and not enter in as just one input.

Some areas tend to produce much more drinkable versions, probably related to a combined set of these kinds of inputs (plant genetics, local climate input, typical growing conditions, and processing choices).  Yiwu area teas might be interpreted as mostly sweet, approachable, and floral, but saying that brings in a limitation and risk of over-generalizing:  that's a broad area, and the teas would surely vary a lot from different places there.  That general pattern might often hold because expectations have evolved in that direction, again for different reasons.  Then it wouldn't necessarily have to be accurate.

autumn harvest versions:  spring teas are typically more intense, often more flavorful (range is greater, not just intensity), and are more desirable.  They'll often have more aging potential, and can reach favorable intermediate age stages that work out better, in some circumstances.  So why drink autumn tea?  Mainly because it costs less.  Sometimes a vendor will obtain and sell a highly in-demand origin area tea version from the autumn, because they have trouble finding a version they can afford to buy and resell from the spring.  Once their applied mark-up involves trying to sell a tea at over $1 a gram they might naturally see market demand as a likely problem.

Could an autumn harvest version be more favorable in some way, beyond just being less intense?  This goes beyond my experience range to answer.  Those kinds of absolutes seem to never fully hold up, but you don't hear much about exceptions either.  It brings to mind a Chinese Wuyi Yancha producer describe how they never do more than one harvest per year for their teas (from their plants), because the cost is too high related to offsetting positive character of the tea and general intensity.  I think pu'er material sources are often harvested three times a year, twice for pu'er, in the spring and fall, and once in the summer for making black tea, although who knows, maybe that's completely wrong.  I'm passing on standard hearsay.

wild origin / varying genetic material teas:  this mixes two radically different inputs that tend to go together, growing conditions and plant types.  It's hard to say why a tea plant growing in the midst of other types of trees would produce more flavorful, more distinctive, and less intense and less challenging tea.  Maybe a lot of shading would reduce intensity.  Maybe plants do carry over flavors of what is growing around them (this generality is often repeated).  It could be that plantation tea tends to be more managed, weeded, and fertilized, the types of inputs that allow plants to grow at maximum speed and produce a lot of leaf compounds.  Who knows.  

We tend to want one or two causes to explain any given thing but in the real world a mix of lots of inputs can enter in.  Maybe it works out that monoculture oriented, high volume production plantations are often located at lower elevation, and more natural gardens higher up, and this one input alone changes things.

Genetic variation of tea plants is an even more complicated subject.  Some plants probably would interbreed with other Assamica or Taliensis versions, as people often speculate.  Just the normal range of variation of genetics by different locations is hard to place. 

effect of varying pressed forms on tea aging:  there isn't as much effect as one might expect.  A very tightly packed tuocha, or larger well-pressed cake, probably would age slower than a smaller, looser packed cake.  I've not seen much speculation about how dragonballs or tea coins age differently, but in general those aren't as favorable for brewing for other reasons, per my experience.  Maocha, loose versions, could potentially age a little faster, but it's still much more standard for vendors to carry and sell pressed versions.  

Related to shapes like dragonballs and tea coins, you end up taking 4 or 5 rounds to get all the material wetted, so you are brewing the outer material well into the transition cycle before the stuff in the middle gets started.  That still works, but out at 10 infusions in or so you have relatively spent material having been infused for longer than normal, to push the pace of wetting the inside, and to get enough intensity out of a fraction of the tea in early rounds.  So that starts contributing characteristic bitterness and off flavor before the infusion cycle ends, maybe green wood, as brewed-out sheng still produces well past 10 rounds.

This is more about aging, and I'm not sure how that would be different.  It might age faster in small forms, since most of the material is relatively near an edge.  For a hard-pressed dragonball maybe that's not as true.  A loosely pressed 357 gram cake might afford a lot more air contact exposure.  It makes sense to me that vendors have moved on to pressing everything a bit less tightly, making the tea easier to access, and potentially enabling more uniform fermentation.

optimum fermentation transition range for different types of tea:  this comes down to preference, as everything does.  Some people might only love well-aged sheng.  To me for factory teas, of a conventional style range, those really do work much better fully aged, so it's on to considering a now more dominant style range, more whole-leaf, higher quality, often narrow origin sourced (versus blended) range of teas.  Sometimes these are referred to as boutique style teas, but people probably mean different things by that reference.  Some would fold in quality concerns, not just style.  Some of these can be much more drinkable when young, and intermediate aging levels may make more sense, drinking them new, or within 3 or 4 years.

There are too many variables and potential outcomes to frame it all as being that simple though.  To me, as a general rule, a high level of bitterness and pronounced astringency, a rough feel versus fullness and richness, are the kinds of starting points that enable positive transitions, and to the extent these are very pronounced maybe more transition could be better for a tea.  I've kind of already said that, and this is more about the opposite range.

People sometimes criticize young sheng for being unapproachable (typically early on in their exploration), which could relate to different things.  Maybe they're just not acclimated to any bitterness yet, or a significant level.  Rough astringency feel can correspond with broken leaf or lower quality material; that's usually not so pleasant.  It's funny hearing different descriptions for off flavors in young sheng, like describing it as tasting like kerosene.  That kind of thing might relate to a quality issue.  A brand new 7542 cake doesn't taste great, per my exposure to those at different ages, but it might not actually taste like kerosene (like it smells; people don't end up tasting that).

The generalities only go so far; to some extent you need to try different types of tea at different ages to see what you like.  Something might really click that you don't expect, doing so.  Interesting flavor changes can occur, beyond the transitions that you might come to expect.  

a few intermediate range patterns:  I've been trying teas of different ages lately, and lots of different patterns emerge.  These are higher quality, relatively whole-leaf, origin specific, relatively less blended versions, again which one could think of as "boutique" versions.  Or not, the label doesn't change much, beyond narrowing things a bit further for some people.

One pattern is that some teas just fade away after a medium-long storage time, within 15 to 20 years.  Some can lose lots of intensity within a decade, even if the character doesn't change over to a relatively aged form.  I suspect that it's not so difficult to experience and identify a range of initial aspects or character that relates to the negative or positive transitions, it's just hard for me to draw clear and conclusive links.

Another negative pattern is that some teas end up expressing off flavors, eg. tasting like wood.  This is separate from less favorable storage conditions either adding negative flavor input (eg. mustiness), or suppressing fermentation transition altogether.  In general I think a range of styles and initial aspects probably tend to link to this outcome as well.  I'm not sure it's a one-to-one mapping of what you might taste in a new tea shifting to that later; it may work out that non-standard initial character could change negatively in different ways.

Then there are a range of positive transition patterns.  This can relate first to some teas being quite pleasant after very limited transition time, maybe 2 to 3 years of storage.  Rough edges can settle, and some depth can emerge, with bitterness and astringency mellowing.  Usually flavors won't completely shift over this short a time, but teas can change a lot.  The next two ranges of concerns are more complicated, an intermediate in-between stage, where it all can make less sense, as younger and older (more transitioned) aspects mix, and then finally, after 15 to 20 years, the final aged form can emerge, which is often interesting and pleasant, but not always remotely close to optimum.

atypical processing inputs:  this relates to a theme I've encountered a lot in South East Asian teas, with sheng pu'er often more oxidized (only one pattern, that overlaps with another topic already mentioned, drinkable when young versions).  That makes it sweeter, a little warmer in tone, and more approachable, at the cost of swapping out some aging potential (my take, at least, which does tend to keep changing).  How do I know that oxidation level was higher, in any given case?  You can taste it, and also see it in browning of the leaves, often more noticeable in the stems.  

Per input from one vendor (a main one in China) this can relate to not drying the tea to a normal level at one step.  Per input from another tea producer, and a researcher, this can be a very intentional style choice.  One producer even mentioned that they add more rest time to allow for oxidation after the heating / kill-green / fixing step, which isn't something I would expect.  I would've expected a long wither and initial oxidation to be a main input instead.  I suppose both could come up, used differently by different producers.

two examples of that, subsequent years from the same Vietnamese tea producer, both young

Some of my overall favorite teas have seemingly been processed in this way.  They can be sweet, warm, fruity (which relates to different inputs), and less bitter and astringent right away, very approachable and pleasant as relatively new tea.  I've not tried much of this range of tea aged for a decade to confirm that it wouldn't age well, or maybe none at all, it can be hard to keep track, since I've not been buying and tracking aging progress for lots of tea versions for over a decade.

Some other versions don't have this included as a noticeable input (although that may be hard to identify), and those other versions can also be sweet, mild, complex in flavor, and approachable over the first year.  I have confirmed that one of my overall favorite sheng versions--from Yunnan, sold by a main vendor--was best within the first year, still ok by the second or third, and then not as positive when I tried it later on.  I suppose that could have related to a processing input I've not identified, or mostly to plant type, or some other cause.  Even when you see interesting transition patterns play out you don't always sort out a clear cause or set of causes input that explains what had happened.

If some tea versions are a blend of lots of different versions of material, balancing out initial character, offsetting flaws, making the most of positive contributions from several, then it might be quite complicated what led to what as such a tea changes over time.

If a tea version is heated too much during the kill-green / sha qing step it will just seem like green tea.  That can still be ok; I've tried a version that worked out well for.  Related to input from a vendor it's possible for a cake pressing vendor--that kind of thing can be outsourced by producers--to overheat cakes during a drying step, and a comparable effect can occur, pushing the style towards green tea.  Again it's conceivable that the outcome could be positive, but more likely that wouldn't be regarded as a positive input, by the tea producer or by a endpoint customer.

problematic teen-age middle years:  I comment on this all the time, but left it out of the initial posted version.  People often mention that there are years in between early fermentation and final aged form that just don't make sense.  The tea can come across as flavorless, or else aged and young flavors can not match together.  It's such a standard theme that just mentioning that adds nothing new to the discussion, so I'll extend this line of thinking a little.  

This can happen at different actual ages, at a different number of years, because dry and humid storage happen at different paces.  A tea can be a decade old and still express young character, when dry stored (often in Kunming, but anywhere).  Where I live, in Bangkok, natural humidity is often around 70% RH, sometimes higher, and the heat seems to change and speed up transitions as well.  Within 5 years all of the newer characteristics have transitioned, and teas take on a relatively aged character within a decade, a bit ahead of a normal schedule.  It still takes about 15-20 years for a full transition process to occur, but this can take 25 to 30 under different circumstances.

Can a tea character be positive right at this stage; could preference lead to someone liking this character?  There's no reason why not, but in general no.  Teas just don't make a lot of sense at this stage.  Some greener aspects mix with warmer tones, but it all doesn't really integrate.  Flavors can come across as muted.  Feel doesn't transition over yet, and bitterness can be at an odd level, not gone, not pronounced as when young, but not matching the level of the older, more developed, transitioned range (jujube, medicinal herb, incense or root spice, etc.).

It wouldn't even be easy for people to evaluate how the next step would go at this stage, per my experience.  With enough practice maybe to a limited degree, but it seems to me that it might be easier to identify how a tea will age within the first 5 years than in between 10 to 12.

real cases being a bit complicated:  people tend to not write meandering, overly general descriptions of this sort of range like this, because too many variables enter in for the presented ideas to be cohesive and helpful.  The last half dozen posts about sheng versions highlights how that works, but I can't really extract an extra helpful few hundred words of description to pin it all down.  When you try a half dozen teas you see a range of outcomes, snapshots at a certain point in time, but you can only ever guess about specific inputs, or next steps, the further potential.

It makes it all the harder that the goalpost is a match to personal preference, not some range of objectively desirable outcomes.  Maybe shared consensus about what is positive lets those two themes map together, to some extent, but probably variations add up to as much range as the shared space.

This can seem to contradict what some online tea discussion expresses.  People more than a decade into exploration, more experienced than me, tend to discuss tea in shared, common ways, and agree on patterns and outcomes that they prefer.  Often these people learned those preferences together, even if they weren't sitting at the same tea tables regularly.  Tea groups discussing teas tend to collect and form into informal "classes," self-sorting to end up that way.

What does this leave out?  Probably as much as it includes, with parts included on the "getting it all wrong" side.  Whatever I write I often second-guess as my opinion and understanding evolve over time.  It seemed like a good time to collect some thoughts, but these will keep changing.

I didn't commit to whether gushu material tea really will typically offer more aging potential; lots of limitations like that must be included as well.  At a guess that depends on the tea style, largely tied back to processing choices, and other factors, more so than that one plant related input (plant age).  Probably in another 10 years I'd express that completely differently.

I think people with different exposure, with more budget to throw at their sheng pu'er habit, and draw on more input from a group of fellow pu'er enthusiasts, might be onto different patterns and outcomes I've yet to experience.  Or maybe they could "poke holes" in some of what is offered here.  I never do get much feedback about writing; that part of blogging never worked out.  It's understandable; I should be part of a set of friends who explore together so that more-interested parties read the content.  Even if we've never spoken it would be interesting to hear from you, about how your experiences work out, whether they're the same or different.  Or not; the standard paradigm of just putting ideas out there has been ok for me.

If you are a vendor who has sent me samples, supporting my exploration, then many thanks for that contribution.  This wouldn't have went as well without your help.

Thai conflict with Cambodia

 

I'm writing to cover my impression of the conflict between Thailand and Cambodia.  This won't relate to setting the record straight in terms of history, or unpacking all the layers and different relevant perspectives.  This covers what I think is happening, related to hearing similar news relatively regularly over the past 17 years while living here (in Bangkok, abroad for parts of that time, but not much of it).

It's an ongoing conflict.  The root cause seemed to be that ownership of a temple area was always contested, and never completely clarified by final divisions between the countries back when the colonial era ended.  Thailand never was a colony of a foreign empire, but land division changed a bit in relation to neighboring areas that were.  When French rule ended, or their colonial oversight did, maps were re-drawn to reflect the modern status of country divisions, and that didn't always relate to as clear a status everywhere as it might.  I think the contention over an area between Malaysia and Thailand is slightly different, more about some groups in the South not wanting to be a part of Thailand, with the official border area well-defined and accepted, by most.  In this one case it's just about ownership of a small temple area.

I'm not sure how many times open conflict has erupted over this issue, but if memory serves--which is not a given--this may be the third round, or more.  It has involved actual fighting before, limited military conflict.  I'd know better what serves as a trigger if I followed the news more closely than I do.  But the underlying cause seems to be the same:  conflict over ownership of a very small area, and an old temple.

In other countries people might apply a different perspective and paradigm about how local land ownership issues work out.  In the US you can find clear markers for map lines of all kinds, and people know where they are in relation to these.  In some cases main divisions might go right through a town or city, and then it's clearly known where that division lies, often down to a few feet.  In rural areas things are different, even in the US, but perhaps all the more so in countries like Thailand.  

Some rural groups, not of the Thai majority group background, lack clear citizenship designation, per my understanding, so people could be not officially a citizen of Thailand in spite of being born here, to parents also born here.  People can also move between different countries in rural areas, especially indigenous groups, known as hill tribes, through less controlled routes.  This was said to be a main cause of Covid entering the country when people passed back and forth from Myanmar.

None of this leads to this conflict making perfect sense, but it can be a normal state of affairs, in an unusual way.  It leads on to considering if Thai people have negative feelings towards people from Cambodia (or Myanmar, or anywhere else).  Not really, but to a very limited extent perhaps.  Thais favor the best interests of Thailand and other Thais, but they seem to accept that people mix in this region.  People from Myanmar, Laos, and Cambodia often work in Bangkok, I suppose with or without legal rights to do so.  Probably more often without that.  The borders are generally a bit open to people moving back and forth, accepting this status, building it into policy enforcement.

To be sure this is where things get a bit hazy to me.  I'm not sure how formal process works, and how exceptions do.  I've known of people working in Thailand from other places, probably most often without the right paperwork, but I can't really draw a parallel in relation to how that is the same or different than migrant farm workers from Mexico working in the US (or from anywhere else).

Then in this one case it's especially odd how Thailand and Cambodia enter the status of officially being at war, when the conflict doesn't seem like one resembling a war (or had; it seems to be officially and in practice generally resolved now).  There is no intention of full-blown military engagement, on either side, it doesn't seem.  So what is the point?  Why start conflict, and what is the desired goal, for both countries?  Again this is where my understanding leaves off.

I've visited Cambodia, quite a number of times.  The border is quite open to Thais traveling to there, as I'm sure also works in the other direction.  The land border has a strange feel to it, versus entering by air, which is just like entering any other country by air.  The enforcement practices related to foreigners--people from other countries--coming and going has kept changing over the past 17 years, but then that's a completely different subject.

People in the US ask if I'm worried about the conflict, when it "heats up," if I feel like we are in danger in Bangkok.  Not at all.  Apparently four people were killed in minor conflict that somehow connected back to that theme, in Bangkok, but in a sense four people dying in a city of a dozen million doesn't feel like a high risk level status.  Also we have no connection to this issue, of any kind.

People died at that border area, and that's different.  Risk level in the close proximity to that border location was significant, and people died there, civilians.  I'm not sure what to make of that.  It's a tragedy, but an all-too familiar one for lots of people in other types of conflict zones.  People die in the South in Thailand regularly, I think.  It's not even an atypical news story, I don't think.  It's nothing like in Gaza, in former Palestine, but a limited number of deaths is also a tragedy, even those four.  Hundreds of people dying in a different kind of conflict is just more of one.

It might sound like I'm claiming that Thais are familiar with death and tragedy, and ok with it, but really the opposite is more true.  They don't have the terrible public shootings here (a couple, and a bombing, but that's it for the country's recent history, that 17 years).  It's not at all that "life is cheap."  Accidents might kill people for what seem like the wrong reasons from time to time, like a boat sinking, but Thais respond appropriately, with empathy and serious regret, and with varying degrees of preventative resolution.  People are less protected from themselves than in the US, restricted from hiking on a dangerous trail, for example, but that's essentially another different subject.

That said I can think of an example that contradicts the last point, and our impressions are made up of these bits of experiences.  We went out hiking on a national park trail once and it was required that we be accompanied by a park employed ranger.  We learned on the hike that this requirement came from the risk of wild elephant contact, and that a ranger had been killed by an aggressive wild elephant earlier in the year in that area.  Such a happening is rare, per my understanding, but male elephants do undergo a radical change of personality at one point in the breeding season, when some hormones are active, and are aggressive and dangerous then.  At one point the ranger with us saw elephant sign, and we ran out of that area.  

It's probably clear already, but the point is that Thai park policies and restrictions are put in place to protect people while hiking, at times.  They could have just informed us of the risk and sent us off, and everything probably would've been fine, but the extra step made for extra protection.  There was some limited fee related to this, if I remember, but it would've seem trivial back in the US, since in some contexts under $10 goes a long way.  It might seem odd that I'm claiming that people are less protected by regulations and restrictions here, given I've just cited a counter-example.  It's that the US is heavily into regulations and restrictions, which aren't always effective, but in some cases these would actually protect people.

Of course I can't project the future of Thailand and Cambodia's ongoing conflict; I can't even fully place what has happened in the past month.  But open war seems unlikely.  This sort of very limited scale conflict makes no sense at all to me, but then not everything does, especially when foreign culture perspectives and government directions are folded in.  What my family members say about perspective on neighboring countries and peoples can be a bit contradictory, but that's also how this works, that people hold varying opinions, and even any one person's full perspective may not be completely consistent.

Liu Bao comparison tasting, 2004 and late teens versions

 

LOT 031 version left, in all photos

I'm reviewing two versions of Liu Bao tea, one sent by the Legend of Tea vendor (the main one I'm reviewing), and another from a friend in Malaysia, maybe in 2019 or so.  I may have never reviewed that other version here; that's strange.  In this post I reviewed some other Liu Bao he sent earlier, in 2017, but I think this was from about two years later.

It took some doing figuring out what this version is, because it's labeled in Chinese, and the site doesn't make mapping that back easy.  At first I thought it was this, but it's not:

Hilltown Aged Liu Bao  (2011 product, $2.31 for 10 grams or 74.34 for 450 grams)

Drinking Pu'er and Liu Bao tea is a time-honoured Nanyang Chinese tradition that continues to this day. From the tin mining era, miners have been drinking Liu Bao tea as their daily health elixir. Renowned for four unique qualities "red, rich, aged and mellow", Liu Bao tea had won hearts of those who have tasted its charm.

Hilltown Aged Liu Bao tea leaves are fine and tight in appearance, with a glossy hue of blackish brown. Upon steeping, its liquor is a lustrous deep red, pleasantly mellow and sweet, with a well balanced aroma. The enchanting tea essence lingers long after each sip, and the smooth and enduring mouthfeel makes it a delightful companion for multiple steepings.

Then it seemed like possibly something from this sample set, and it is one of those teas.  The vendor helped fill in that it's really this:

Chun Xiang 031 Liu Bao 10G | 100G | 250G | 1KG ($65 for 250 grams, available as a 10 gram sample for $4.16)

Lovingly matured for 19 years, this tea has mellowed out with a rich and velvety profile. A true testament of its age, its tea liquor is bold deep red accompanied with an enchanting aged aroma upon steeping.  The taste is a harmonious blend of smoothness and depth, leaving a satisfying aftertaste. Over time, the tea's character intensifies, becoming even more full-bodied and mellowly sweet, making it a prized addition to any tea collection.

In this post I was guessing that it was a pre-fermented variation of Liu Bao, similar to shou / shu pu'er, because the fermentation level is so complete.  It being from 2004 explains that fermentation input level, potentially in a different way, or maybe it was processed in a manner similar to shou.  21 years is awhile, especially for teas being stored in Malaysia; it's there.  Then I can't say for sure that it wasn't pre-fermented originally as well; there are different styles of Liu Bao, processed in different ways, per my understanding mapping fairly directly to the sheng and shou (raw and ripe) pu'er types.

There's not much about the other version to serve as a baseline.  I describe what it had been like earlier, but it has changed a lot in a half dozen years.  Here's where it was from:

Who sends an online friend a kilogram of any kind of tea?  That friend, and not very many other people.  Of course I never had any idea how much it cost; you don't ask about gifts like that.

There's more from him in a description of Tie Kuan Yin's origin story (along with a review of two TGY oolongs that he also sent), which is the most background I've even included about him.

The review notes don't make much of the 031 version's leaves being finer, or brewed tea color differing quite a bit, focusing more on the experienced aspects (vision is an experience; I mean flavor and mouthfeel).

Review:

Legend of Tea Liu Bao (2004, it seems, but I wrote review notes without knowing that):  heavy on that distinctive mineral range, which reminds me most of cement block.  Using a rinse for these would have been reasonable, but I didn't (although this was a fast infusion, so it's a rinse if you throw it away, and an early infusion if you don't).  I might just check the flavor and character and skip drinking all of it.  

So far this seems promising.  Early mineral related range is a little rough, but I think that will smooth out quickly.  Feel is already smooth and rich; by rough I mean that it's a little dry, a little far into tasting like cement range.  There is lots of other depth there already there, other sweetness.

This reminds me of seeing a comment about the set (7?) of distinctive Liu Bao flavors awhile back.  I asked Google's AI results what those were, but I'm sure the list isn't exactly the same:

Liu Bao tea boasts a complex flavor profile, often described as earthy and mellow, with prominent notes of betel nut, medicinal herbs, and wood. It can also exhibit hints of honey, jujube, and even a subtle fungal aroma, particularly in aged varieties. (and pine smoke is mentioned in the detailed breakdown after).

I'll do more of a flavor list next round, referring back to that.

comparison version, from a friend in Malaysia:  much different.  It's warmer, missing some of the cement block flavor range, but with plenty of other mineral.  I think this is quite different than when I first tried it a half dozen years ago, mellowed quite a bit.  "Different how" will be easier to describe in the flavor list breakdown next round.

LOT Liu Bao #2:  lots of cement-oriented mineral range still comes across, but it already balances a lot better, with other range stepping forward more.  Probably next round this early transition will be more complete.

It's hard to say if this really does taste like betel nut, medicinal herbs, wood, honey, jujube, fungal aroma, and pine smoke.  It's complex, and most of that seems to work.  There's a decent chance that betel nut is the most pronounced flavor, after that mineral range, but I'm not familiar with that flavor to call it.  There's a little jujube (Chinese date), but it's secondary to a lot of other complexity.  Wood tones stand out more, and pine, maybe pine wood, versus smoke.

It's cleaner than it probably sounds, as that list.  Flavor range is on the deep, warm, and heavy side.  Per my understanding Liu Bao can be relatively pre-fermented (like shou pu'er) or not much at all (more like sheng), and this seems to include that process as a main input [editing note:  unless this is significantly aged, and then distinguishing pre-fermentation input and aging effect would require plenty of exposure to lots of versions to become clear on].  But it doesn't result in exactly the same heavy, rich flavors as those common in shou.  It's related, but a different set.

Complexity is positive in this.  Clean effect is nice, and sweetness is good.  Feel is rich and full.  So to me the make or break related to the experience is how one takes that mineral base flavor, which really sets the stage for all of the rest.  It's in between pine wood and cement, which one could interpret as medicinal herbs instead (which sounds better).  It should "clean up" a lot over the next round.

comparison version:  a heavy, distinct flavor range stands out in this, which I don't remember from trying it many times before.  Lots of what I do remember has transitioned to become only supporting aspects, a rougher, lighter mineral range.  Maybe part of that is betel nut (again), since I'm really describing a set of flavors that are primary that come across as connected.  Richness and sweetness weren't as present before, and a dried fruit range also entered in (like jujube, dried Chinese date, but I suppose it could also be interpreted in different ways).  

So is this not as good, better, or just different?  I'll get back to that over the next couple of rounds.

LOT #3:  this really does come together nicely this round; warm and sweet tones ramp up, and drier mineral tones balance better.  That same complex set of aspects is all present, all integrated really well.  I could probably sort out what the flavors are better, but that earlier list could work as identification.

comparison version:  this is pretty good too, but the profile is narrower.  It has softened and deepened over time, which is nice, but it lacks the fullness of flavor across the broad range the other expresses.  That's not necessarily worse, but it does seem to leave out part of what is making Liu Bao work, that intensity of balancing flavors, so I guess the complexity.  This is centered more on the deep mineral, with some woodiness, a bit towards pine, and a touch of what could be interpreted as dried fruit.  That probably sounds like a description of the other, but somehow it covers less range.

It's interesting considering that if the other version is closely mapped to shou pu'er it's at a relative end-point for fermentation, or the same would be true if it's quite aged instead, and at 7 or so years along this would be more at a mid-point (although I'm not sure how old it was back then, when I got it).  It should keep changing more over the next half a dozen years.  I'm not sure how well that parallel holds up; it's a different style of tea, not made in the same way, not expressing relatively identical young character in terms of aspects.  It might work better as a thought model or point of comparison than a guess about future transitions.

LOT #4:  depth, complexity, feel, and overall balance are nice for this.  It does seem like this is closer to a shou style, related to that warm, earthy depth.  That or else this has really been aging for a long time, a decade or more [21 years, per the product description].  It's different than shou, of course, with that dry mineral base standing out (that's not really present in shou at all), with the rest matching better.  That mineral level and type has softened and changed over the last two infusions.  

Even for the rest shou doesn't taste like jujube / Chinese date, to this extent, and what I'm interpreting as probably like betel nut isn't common either.  The rich feel and warmth is comparable, and fullness.  

It would be interesting to see if I can tolerate this while fasting, as I can shou, if that part carries over.  When a test of that doesn't work it puts me in an awkward place, because I won't just eat some food to resolve it.  I can drink shou or aged white tea when fasting, and so far the rest doesn't work very well.  I've only experimented with aged sheng a little, because the initial trial didn't go well.

comparison version:  there's a bit of sourness in this, that has been evolving to be stronger.  To me it's decent tea, interesting for being where it is, and it may well have positive transition potential left.  But the other is more positive now, in a couple of different ways.  Feel is pretty good for this, and the warmer tones work a lot better than how it came across a half dozen years ago (to me; people could love that edginess and intensity).

It's not a given that Gongfu brewing gets the best out of Liu Bao, or that all versions would work out the same related to relative optimum preparation.  To me for sheng and shou pu'er Gongfu brewing is best, in general, but these teas might work well brewed using other approaches, using a much lower proportion.  Just a good sized pinch would be enough for "grandpa-style" brewing, drinking it together with the tea left in, using a very extended infusion time.  It would probably still brew a few rounds that way, and you could add another pinch to keep on going, for quite awhile.  The first Legend of Tea version, for being closer to shou in character, would probably brew tea well using a thermos brewing approach, which isn't completely unrelated, using a very long infusion time, and very limited proportion, letting it sit for an hour or two.  Proportion could be really low for that; it wouldn't take much to brew a strong 700 ml of tea.

All of that is more discussion than suggestion; messing around with brewing approach might turn up interesting and positive results.

LOT #5:  since these aren't transitioning that much I'll probably leave off after this round.  Intensity is backing off just a little but this is far from finished, it seems.  Within another couple of rounds I'd be stretching timing a little, which would change aspects some, but I'll probably not write about that.  It's good, similar to how it has been for the last couple of rounds.

comparison version:  a sort of roasted sunflower seed flavor emerges; this is changing a little more.  The sourness that had evolved has now largely dropped out.  It expresses a more limited flavor profile, so it's less complex, but the range is comparable, and it's also good.  

This might match up really well with a range of foods, which is one positive potential that my Malaysian friend, who sent this to me, had emphasized in talking about how they prefer to experience Liu Bao.  It would be rich and intense enough to balance dim sum nicely, and include enough mineral and astringency to offset some of those dishes being heavy, rich, or oily.  The other would be ok too, but it would be more like drinking shou pu'er with food, which could also work.  

The way this tea was 5 or 6 years ago was a lot more intense, a bit harsher, including more mineral expression and astringency, and that would've balanced against heavy food in a different kind of way.  I suppose that it could work to see this character as in between how it had been and the Legend of Tea version I'm using it as a comparison with.

Conclusions:

This seemed to leave out two different kinds of conclusions:  to what extent do I like the teas (match to my preference), and how do I judge them in terms of quality level or trueness to type for Liu Bao?

The first relates most to my type preferences in tea, more so than to the quality level of either.  They're good, but I like sheng pu'er most, as tea types go.  From there I also really appreciate black tea, basic Chinese-style versions, especially Dian Hong, and a lot of oolong range, especially Wuyi Yancha and Dan Cong.  So I do like these, but not absolutely loving Liu Bao limits that.  It's the same for shou pu'er; it can be fine, but I tend to not love it.  And all the more so for green tea, which is more or less my least favorite main broad type.

Related to quality level these seem fine, but I can't really place either on a scale.  They seem like relatively different variations of Liu Bao, possibly relating to that raw / ripe or pre-fermented or not divide.  It's trickier to try to place two different teas in relation to being good quality examples of two different types or styles, in relation to each other.

I think the main version I'm reviewing here, the Legend of Tea version, is really nice, pleasant and complex, well-balanced, and in a drinkable style.  It's better tea than the other version, but that's probably not comparing apples to apples, since it is much more fermented than the other, older, or maybe a processing difference also entered in.

I think it does match one normal type range of Liu Bao, a variation that's already well fermented.  I can't place it on a quality scale, or guess about a normal pricing range, because the type just isn't that familiar.  But I can add that unless someone is looking for a slightly more challenging type, as the other was when it was newer, this covers pleasant and complex Liu Bao range in a very positive way.  Flavors are intense, complex, and well-balanced, and it lacks any kinds of flaws or obvious limitations.  As I interpret it the style is a good match to the general type.

The other version is fine too, but it may be even better in another half dozen years, once it finishes an aging process.

Since I can't really place this for quality level, due to not being familiar enough with a higher end range of Liu Bao, it's also hard to place it for value.  I can add that if you buy a few aged Liu Bao versions from a source like Yunnan Sourcing there is a good chance that none will really compare well to this, regardless of their age, or possibly even brand and version.  Storage conditions need to be somewhat optimum for the initial quality of a version to carry over well to an aged form; too wet and one would be quite musty, too dry and the fermentation process wouldn't occur properly.  

It's been awhile since I've done that, but Liu Bao has turned up here and there in samples since.  This version is one of the best I've tried, and maybe the best, since it's hard to keep track.  It will be interesting trying others from them, to help place it further.