On foreigners retiring to Thailand

 

The idea of possibly retiring to a lower cost of living country comes up in online discussions.  It relates to people identifying that US social security isn't enough to live on, and that their own retirement savings seems a bit thin.  The numbers you see vary, but per a quick check with Google 40% of all Americans have no retirement savings, and that only reduces to 20% for Americans over 50.

This isn't about all of that.  It's not even about complications in living abroad, although I will start with that theme, to explain what may not work well, or why it wouldn't work at all for some people.  I wanted to explain what retirement tends to look like in Thailand, how people tend to live.  Obviously I'm drawing on online communicated stereotypes and discussions; I don't know all that many retired people.  But for many it's a complete blank, and I want to help fill that in, since I've been living in Thailand for awhile (about 18 years).  Of course scope will be narrow, just thoughts or range that comes to mind, in part related to questions that come up.  Like these:

How developed is Thailand?  What do different areas look like?  Do expats / foreigners tend to live in "enclaves," or not?  What are different area options, versus just city, rural, and beach or island based?

Let's start with the problems.

Difficulties / problems

Oddly a visa isn't one of them.  With sufficient savings or proof of income anyone can get a retirement visa in Thailand.  I suppose if someone is quite poor meeting these minimums could be a real hurdle, if they are living on zero savings and social security.  But for many it would just relate to issues with proof, demonstrating that security with or without pulling out funds to place in a Thai bank for demonstration purposes (which might be required).

If someone isn't retirement age (I'm not sure the cutoff) they might have a different problem, since they probably wouldn't be eligible.  Thailand offers other visas, for investors, or shortcuts if you pay extra.  I suppose from there someone could try a work-around instead, to get an education visa to go to a low cost institution, whether they are really studying or pursuing an educational goal or not.  

Thailand continually weeds out people manipulating visa channels, using them improperly, but there would still be exceptions to work with.  It would be for the best to not rely on "work arounds" that involve cheating the system though.  People of different ages could take part in different forms of education, and in Thailand it might be broad enough that you could learn muay Thai or cooking, versus being in a degreed university program.  It's crazy how inexpensive and broadly themed vocational education options are in Thailand, but that applies a lot more to Thais, and foreigners would need to do a lot of research.

Communication both is and isn't a problem.  Enough people speak English that even out in rural areas you could manage transportation and buying food and such, with essentially no Thai language skills.  But it would make for an uncomfortable life experience, only learning a few basic words.  Speaking a few hundred words, even badly, would go a long way.  That's not that difficult.

In the short term society seeing you as an outsider might not be so negative, but in the long run it may not feel comfortable.  The US forms of racism or bias against immigrants isn't copied over; it would take another factor or two for someone to get beat up over it.  So this leads to the potential "enclaves" or expat gathering center theme I'll get back to, about people gathering together around others with similar background, to experience a limited and very local familiar culture, which I'll cover related to how that works out by area (in a few cases; none of this is comprehensive).

Missing home is the real issue.  Lots of people love the differences in an early honeymoon period.  New foods can seem fantastic, and low cost of living really freeing.  Problems that you would expect not coming up, the racism theme, could seem like more acceptance than it really relates to.  Romantic options could seem open (more for guys, and that tends to take a pay-for-play form, whether that's explicit or not).  But lots of familiarity is also missing.  Driving is more difficult, for awhile, and food options aren't the same.  Interactions with government systems are difficult, for example getting a driver's license, which you can do.  Beyond any of that it can get old being an outsider.  Or I suppose anomalies would come up, like someone not tolerating hotter weather well.

Different locations

Pattaya:  the sex tourism capital; for one type of transplant this is the obvious choice.  There's not much more to add about that.  Some people claim that Pattaya is really fine for living a life that's not based around that, but it's really all over the place there.  You could appreciate Western food or decent medical care options there instead, and I suppose if you lived in a quiet and out of the way part the sex industry might not come up much.  But in general if you are there it's for that.

Phuket:  this other main resort area might provide a better balance for people not so focused on the sexpat theme.  It's an option in places there, but it looks and feels like a normal island resort too.  There is a "downtown" part, and shopping, dining, and medical care are probably all fine (I've experienced the first two, on visits, just not hospital visitation).  There are a number of muay Thai gyms there; I suppose some few older guys, or women, might take up training to stay in shape.  Beaches are a little cleaner and more conventional than in Pattaya.  You can visit Rayong and go out on snorkeling outings not so far out of Pattaya too, but Phuket is more what one would expect for an island or seaside resort.  Our kids took surf lessons there on a visit once.

surfing in Phuket; I'm sure it would get better than that at times, in other places

recently in Waikiki; conventional sized waves, that can get a lot bitter

It's interesting hearing about how there are too many Russians in some places, or whoever else, increasing crime rates.  People who spend lots of time in bars tend to pick up a different perspective than I'd ever have.  It's nothing like Mexican cartels making some places unsafe.  Older guys do tend to die a bit often in Pattaya, per a favorite online story line, but it's probably more related to suicide than due to others' choices, even if both happen regularly.  

All of Thailand is pretty safe.  Drinking every day is a much higher risk than foul play.  This is just my take, but it seems like the darker the aspects are related to your lifestyle the more your risks escalate.  People doing illegal drugs bring risk on themselves, for example, and even more by drug dealing.  There's a favorite story line about foreigners being taken advantage of just for investing a lot of money, especially related to marrying a Thai, and I suppose if a lot of money is at stake potential risks could increase.  Trusting random people with millions of baht is probably a bad idea.

Isaan:  this is really where a lot of older guys end up, and a much smaller proportion of female retirees.  It's a great place to lead a quiet life.  The harsh, sometimes true story of a foreigner building a house in his wife's name, and then being cheated out of everything, must happen from time to time, but in general many more people must just lead quiet lives instead.  Foreigners can't own land, which could lead to those circumstances, having property and a house in your wife's name.  Or renting could work.

I think people just love those stories, and there is no story if some guy lives out 20 quiet years.  Probably in some cases the real details about someone experiencing ordinary misfortune aren't interesting enough, so that gets spun into something else.

One downside of Isaan life could be that it's pretty quiet there.  It's not different than in rural areas anywhere else.  That could sound good to someone, and could be experienced as very positive, then a year or two later it might not seem as pleasant and balanced.  I remember meeting local expats in a hotel gym / spa area once, talking a little about how life goes out there.  They didn't make it sound bad, at all, but there was a sort of desperation related to any mention of boredom.  To be clear where I'm from, in rural Pennsylvania (the US), it would be worse.  There aren't small communities on the same scale as nearby, just mostly small towns and tiny villages, and almost no one is moving there from anywhere else.  The one upside, related to the US, is that the roads are a little better, so you can travel further at a faster pace, so it all balances back out.

They have small local markets and food courts in different places all over, but you can tell this is Bangkok instead by the elevated highway.  Apparently I don't take that many pictures of normal markets when we visit smaller towns, but I do have others.

a Lopburi monument (there would be things like this in lots of places)

inside that monument.  what remains in places varies a lot.

all of those monkeys are all around you outside, and on the streets.

a sidewalk fruit market there is pretty typical.

Thai history goes back to the stone age, with interesting stages in between then and now.

Roads are pretty decent in Isaan, but it's all relative.  The main highways aren't like US interstates, and "country roads" can be a bit basic.  It doesn't seem unsafe to me, driving in rural Thailand, but you have to pay more attention, and adjust speed for conditions.  It goes a lot better than you might expect, but at the same time longer distances take a bit more time, compared to road travel in the US.

this could be lots of places, but I think it's in Trat

One might wonder what is out there, beyond farms, and small towns.  Temples, of course.  Plenty of parks, and some museums.  Historical areas turn up here or there.  It's funny how often expats complain of dual pricing, of paying more to enter natural areas and parks, but I suppose if you were going to them frequently paying 300 baht ($10) instead of 30 could seem a bit insulting, especially if you pay a lot more taxes than most Thais.  I don't know that it's mostly about the actual expense.  

They do the same thing here, in Hawaii, and visitors from anywhere else pay to go to some places that are free to locals (Hawaii residents).  I get it; the idea is to protect your local residents from experiencing costs meant to be imposed on visitors.  And that seems to be the rub for resident expats; they see themselves as local residents.  But they're not Thai.

Bangkok / Chiang Mai:  I was going to list out lots of places foreigners tend to live in Bangkok, but this is already running long.  It's possible to find that out online.  As I see it Chiang Mai is fairly comparable to Bangkok, maybe just better for being a little bit less of a sprawling mess, even though their traffic was already bad enough a decade ago, and must be much worse now.  

where I run around a palace in Bangkok.  I'm not going to show much of the city though.

a canal area on the walk to a local market near our house (in Bangkok)

a temple on the way (of course)

these drainage canals are cool, but can be a little smelly

Let's run through where some expats live in Bangkok though:

Udom Suk:  one main transplant hub, on "deep Sukhumvit," that might be called, versus lower Sukhumvit.  Suhumvit is the main road in Bangkok, essentially, running east and west with a N / S tilt to it.  This is on the far side, out east, and south, towards Bangna.  The areas are summarized as BTS (skytrain) stops; really the two stops on either side of Udom Suk aren't so different, since they're not that far.  There would be plenty of apartment complexes there, and restaurant options, with lots of it local in character (cheaper, more casual).  Even further out there are other areas, including Bangna, and foreigners would end up living all over the place.

Tong Lo / Ekamai:  the next level closer to a center of the city, but there is no singular center.  Maybe the Siam BTS stop area is more like a center, but it's not that.  These are trendier, and probably costlier areas.  Further on yet Asok is a main intersection area, again still on Sukhumvit and that BTS line, maybe as much the main center for expats to live as anywhere else.  There's a red light area beside Asok, Soi Cowboy.  I'm not sure that's the primary reason for its popularity; there is a lot of things right there, including a main mall (Terminal 21), a few shopping areas, a nearby large park, and so on.

These places would be more costly, but you could still find ordinary apartments around there for 20 to 30,000 per month, I think ($600 to $1000 USD).  High rises with a pool and gym would probably run on the high side, but there would be other kinds of options.  Other costs of living would still be kind of low.  It's a little hard to summarize what I mean by that, since running through costs for food, groceries, different kinds of restaurants, gyms, and so one would make for a good 1000 word summary.  You can buy a bowl of noodles for not very much all over, $1 or 2.  Groceries never cost that much.  In restaurants more oriented towards a higher end or more foreign clientele costs rise, but it's generally nothing like where I am now, in Honolulu, where $30 doesn't go very far to get something to eat.  You could spend that at Subway, and not get much for it.

There's a Japanese expat area near Phrom Phong, not far from Asok.  I don't keep track of those sorts of separate foreign origin areas, but of course Chinatown has connections back to China, and there's a little India, of sorts.  There is Middle Eastern influence around the Nana area, which contains another red light area.  Those red light areas tend to be a bit self-contained, so someone could live 100 meters outside of one and not really be that affected by it.  That's because it's not really an illegal business, even though in one sense it may not be fully formally sanctioned.  That part is complicated.

Siam:  people don't tend to live here.  There's no zoning for what can be built where, but more commercial areas tend to not include that much housing.  There would always be small apartment complexes not too far away, or a more pricey highrise kind of resident option almost anywhere.

Sathorn / Silom:  these are nice areas, beside each other.  Silom is also pretty commercial, but it's a decent size place, so there would be places to live around.  Sathorn is more a central business area and a residence area (it's much bigger; it has different sections).  There's no reason that Thais couldn't live in any of these places, but in general the local people we know are based from where their family had lived, or else they've moved into areas that seem a little more like suburbs, further out.  I've worked in Sathorn and Silom and most people had long commutes to get there.

Nonthaburi:  outside of Bangkok there are small areas where foreigners live, more of an enclave theme than what I've been describing.  Some might be in Nonthaburi, or at least a friend happened to live in such a place there.  There are very small complex areas where foreigners live within the city center too, for example not far from where the embassies tend to be.  I don't have much to add about such places.  Visiting one comes to mind, and it was nice how it was a small gated community (very small; maybe 15 small houses), with limited yard space for kids to play in.  That kind of standard form of a US suburb isn't common in the center of the city though, and may occur a lot more often a little further out.  Over by the airport my wife's close friend lives in such a complex. 

Sub-culture themes

There's an interesting divide between expats who pride themselves on integrating, and others who love Thailand but don't try to change themselves or their own lifestyle to fit in better.  It's all good, either way.  Of course people who are fluent in Thai, eat local foods, have local friends, and "get" the local culture can tend to express that's better.  Maybe I'm in the middle, even though I live in a Thai family, work in a Thai company, and was ordained as a monk at one point (as an example; that doesn't prove anything).

Expats can link up with other expats and still live a relatively local lifestyle, or naturally be introverted and somewhat isolated and still live a lot like a Thai.  Or they could pick and choose, and eat foreign foods, but play soccer (football) with Thais, and so on.

It comes up over and over that Thais aren't generally seeking out including a foreigner in their social circle, that it's hard to be fully accepted.  I suppose there is a perspective of foreigners being outsiders, which would take some effort to overcome.  Language issues would be part of that.  In the end foreigners do often find ways to link up with others, through sports themed groups, professional societies, or informal special interest groups.  If an expat is sort of passing through, only spending a few years in Bangkok, or elsewhere, it would just be easier that way.

It's interesting how some things are really simple and easy in Thailand, even more so than in the US, and other things are pretty difficult.  Maybe getting a driver's license is an example of a system designed to not work well in both places.  Medical care is pretty straightforward in Thailand, compared to in the US.  Quality of medical care varies, but plenty of that applies in the US as well, just less so.

Some pretty basic themes, like having someone cut your lawn, tend to work out better through personal contacts in Thailand, not so much whatever the modern equivalent of using yellow pages is (Google search?).  Lawns aren't so common in Bangkok; I mean across the rest of that scope, like getting treatment for termites.  My wife has so many personal connections with people who fix clothing, help around the house, are a better than average vet option, and so on.  There are always different ways to do different things, but some may not work out well.  Something easy, like being able to use a local pool to swim laps, may seem tricky, even though after you put the work into investigation multiple options would turn up.

It's for the best to avoid any involvement with Thai laws.  If you open a business you can't, of course, but foreigners would have very limited rights to do that, so it would be tricky to (and costly, but it is possible, with Thai partners).  I mean that you need actively observe cultural norms that overlap with legal issues, like not defaming others' public images online.  In the US you can do that, but not so much in Thailand.  Noise ordinances seem a bit less rigid, but again as an outsider you don't want to test those kinds of limits.  If your neighbors are really loud it's better not to follow suit.

Maybe these kinds of sub-themes could add up to not feeling at home, not knowing where all of the norms and restrictions lie.  It's atypical for men to walk around with no shirt on, but can you?  Probably, where it makes sense, but it's better not to.  

Transplant residents tend to not live in fear of violating the next norm, since Thais are pretty open and flexible, but different people would end up pushing it in different ways.  One former expat once gave me the advice that eventually I would have someone draw a weapon on me, which related entirely to how he was living, that it had led to that.  I'd have to think hard to recollect anyone speaking in an unkind manner, never mind anything like that.  But if you transplant your entire worldview and set of behaviors with you, instead of minding fitting in, maybe odd things could come up.

Another expat told me that after a few years I would equally not fit in anywhere, and I suppose there is something to that too.  I'm an outsider in Thailand and the US now, even though I feel at home in both places.

Rishi Wawee Thai sheng (2022) and Phousan Laos sheng (2021)

Thai version right, in all photos (this is the third round)

 

I've been meaning to try Rishi sheng versions from South East Asia for awhile, and finally got around to ordering two.  Whether or not someone calls them pu'er doesn't matter to me; that are that type, regardless of a Chinese regional designation for that name.  Per my understanding the type was produced in lots of places long before Chinese people adopted that village name for it.  They are these:

Doi Wawee Sheng Pu'er Vintage Spring 2022 ($45 for a 200 gram cake)

The Doi Wawee Pu’er cakes we source are part of the incredible history of tea in Thailand. Throughout northern Thailand there are many old, abandoned tea plantations that have been left to grow wild from centuries past. Known locally by the Thais as “Assam tea,” these trees are part of an ancient tea journey that traces its roots back to the 11th and 12th Centuries...

This 2022 Doi Wawee sheng Pu’er has a wonderful balance of density, power and elegance. The floral and aromatic wood notes are present over the course of the several infusions. For being such a young cake the tea is very smooth and lasting in sweetness. The powerful energy and awakening vibes of Doi Wawee’s ancient tea is incredible.

The history of tea in lots of places has been lost, but the earlier existence of the plants can be confirmed, especially since some can live a long time, so it's a living history.  I don't remember what I've heard about time-frames, but the history of Thailand importing ceramics production from China goes back a long time, for centuries, so tea was probably around too.

Laos Sheng Pu’er Tea Cake Vintage 2021 ($48 for a 250 gram cake)

Our 2021 round cake pressing of the first picked, early spring tea is lively and energetic with luscious wildflower honey, ripe fruit and piney aromas. The Xiengkhoung region of Laos is demonstrating its consistent performance as one of our favorite origins for Pu'er tea. The tea has a long-lasting impact on the palate with a mouthwatering sweetness and deeply refreshing quality. The delicate floral aromas give way to an emerging pungency, stimulating strength and minerality that builds up in the subsequent brews. The tea is pressed a bit hard, so it comes out slowly and elegantly over the course of many infusions...

It is pressed really hard; that will probably slow aging transition.  They mention positive cha qi (feel) in that description too, but I tend to not notice that, unless it's very pronounced.  They mention a little more on local growing areas in the website, about elevation, and include harvest timing; the whole story of both is on the site pages.

South East Asian sheng has been my overall favorite type for a long time.  Thai versions can be very nice, distinctive and pleasant.  Laos versions tend to be less consistent, but in the best cases they're very positive too.  Vietnamese sheng seems to often stray further from Yunnan production style, to include some extra oxidation, or maybe the kill-green step is sometimes different, leading to slightly different results.  I've had exceptional versions from Myanmar, and they might be a little more consistent in general, and as true to type related to Yunnan versions as any of the others.

Review:

Wawee #1:  pretty nice.  A bit of pine comes across early on, and some sort of stone fruit note, close enough to plum, but that interpretation could vary, and it will probably evolve.  It's clean, intense, and balanced, and not at all light in relation to this being the first round.  Bitterness is significant, but also moderate, which is what I would have expected.  

Maybe flavor tones have deepened and warmed since production, since this is a 2022, but I can only guess.  I've tried a reasonable amount of other Thai sheng and this compares well, and is similar in character.  But then it's too early for that level of judgment.

Phousan Laos:  an intense more vegetal note hits right away; I'll need to brew this fast to optimize results around that.  It's in between green wood and mushroom, but warmed and softened a bit, so maybe that's partly cured wood and dried mushroom.  It's missing the fruit range in the other tea.  

One could interpret some of the vegetal range as pine but it seems to represent wood more.  This might evolve towards incense spice, if the less pleasant vegetal range diminishes, based on what it tastes like now.  At least at this level it doesn't really compare favorably to the Thai version at all.  It lacks the same sweetness and cleanness, with flavors that aren't nearly as positive.  You can't really judge sheng by the first round though; they will often develop a bit between the first and third infusion, and continue changing after that.

Wawee #2:  bitterness and vegetal range picked up a lot, which is to be expected.  

I overdo it with proportion, as a matter of habit, generally always using about 8 grams per 100 ml gaiwan.  Since that's my norm I tend to just go with it.  You can use faster infusions and get similar results related to using a more conventional proportion, but they might be more optimum using 5, so you can adjust timing better.  

I was just talking about that with that Teas We Like founder I just met at the last meetup (described in the last post), and I can't really justify the practice of using a high proportion as somehow better.  It's just how my tea brewing evolved.  It's a good way to drink a dozen rounds of tea on the intense side, and I'm drinking for beverage experience more often than tasting, even though I do both, and approach for the two mixed.  If intensity is too high for a round, which can happen, you can just flash infuse the next round and mix them, although I don't do that during review tasting sessions.

The depth is nice.  Astringency / feel filled in, and it's substantial, and bitterness falls into a different balance.  The sweetness and complex flavor range makes it pleasant.  Some aftertaste expression carries over; it's definitely not thin, or limited in any way.  The fruit note is especially pleasant.  Pine isn't really prominent; probably that's something you would either notice in that first infusion or else not get.  I can't say the more vegetal range tastes like wood, but it's hard to place it otherwise.  I would guess this will evolve towards spice some, which is also a best case for the Laos version.

Phousan:  wood is still the dominant flavor.  At least the mushroom edge to that has evolved away already.  There is a more positive spice range entering in; this is improving fast.  That main wood flavor is a well-cured hardwood, with a touch of greener wood range beyond that.  The vegetal scope isn't all that green, so the spice seems to tie in with that.  It could be interpreted as medicinal herb, or even along the line of some type of basil (maybe tulsi / holy basil).  It's starting to work better; I think the third infusion will determine how the rest will go.

I didn't include it in the tasting theme post but we also discussed the use of comparison tasting, that tea vendor / expert and I.  He said that it's a good tool for a beginner to use to notice differences that would be harder to place otherwise, which would help with sorting out tea evaluation in general.  Of course that's part of what I'm doing, and what I started using it for.  It has evolved to where I'm mostly trying two or more teas, but usually two, to get to more versions with less tasting and writing time.  I might do 80 or 90 reviews in a year, and write about well over 100 teas, maybe 150, so I would be writing even more posts to try them one at a time.  I guess it's down to 70-some posts in total and maybe 60 reviews now, but it works out the same.

It may not seem it but writing one detailed review a week is a lot.  It takes more than an hour to write the notes, or maybe two, and another hour to edit photos and text, and add reference citation.  It's not the time that's a concern though, it's the focus required.  You have to use the time that you are most dialed in, rested, and relaxed, or it won't work.

Wawee #3:  overall balance is improving, the way those aspects already described come together.  This isn't really a fair comparison because Thai sheng is among my personal favorites, with lots of what I've tried from the Wawee area.  I've tried a good bit of Laos sheng too, and some was great, but only the Farmerleaf version I mentioned in the last meetup theme post stands out as on the same level as other better versions from elsewhere.  That's in recent memory; I was drinking a good bit of Laos sheng 5 to 10 years ago, and a couple of versions back then were probably pretty exceptional, but more weren't.

I should get around to describing Thai and Laos sheng in relation to Yunnan versions, in terms of style (typical style--both vary a lot), typical quality level, and terroir input.  It's just so much to get to, and every point would involve a troublesome spiral in describing exceptions and normal range of variation.  Maybe I won't.

Phousan:  clearly the best this has been, right on schedule.  Green and cured wood is giving way to more spice range.  It's not just a touch of basil now, something along the line of celery seed is prominent.  I've been using dill seed from our garden as a food spice; it's not too far from that, but probably still closer to celery.  It's more pleasant than this description makes it sound, like some sort of basil and seed spice tisane, with a bit of wood.  Let's free-form associate what makes it more positive, as a flavor list description.

The wood tone I've been describing moving into incense spice range is part of it.  Sandalwood, maybe?  I really should revisit that incense scent theme again somehow.  I have no idea how agar wood would vary, and I've even lost track of what patchouli smells like, which would be a slap in the face for one former Deadhead roommate, and lifetime best friend, who always smelled like that.  Sweetness also picks up; that helps the flavors tie together.  Limited bitterness, which I tend to not mention much, if it's a normal low-background input, probably also helps in this case.  Feel is fine; it has fullness and structure, it just doesn't stand out, so again I see it as normal background context.  I'll revisit this next round, as it continues to evolve.

Wawee #4:  this is where I might start hitting a wall for drinking a lot of tea, and the next round is usually where I tap out.  If I'd been more practical and used 5 gram proportion I could brew these even lighter, and get to a 6th (a dozen in total).  I might mention that I'm re-warming water to keep this brewing using very close to boiling point temperature, not dropped much between that boil and the next infusion, in this case under a minute of cooling.

There's a pleasant sappy feel to this that works well with the rest.  It connects with a positive aftertaste expression.  Flavors have evolved, and I've not kept up with describing that.  I interpret a main pleasant input as fruit, but others might not, and that could even sound wrong to some.  There's a good bit of range, so that it could work best to describe general range scope and then individual flavor inputs.  Stone fruit is on the list, but vegetal range is more pronounced.  Or that really overlaps or mixes with a spice theme, again probably mild incense spice, which more often occurs in a very different overall flavor context.  Bitterness stands out, of course.  Sweetness might include a bit of toffee edge, but that's not easy to pick up, given the stronger vegetal and spice range.  Interpreting more of it as green wood could also work.

Phousan:  spice still stands out, incense spice (mostly), along with seed spice and a touch of basil.  Those warm tones and sweetness are pleasant.  Mushroom and wood have generally dropped out, although someone could still interpret the one part as cured wood, but I see it as having evolved more to incense spice range.

It's hard to guess about how these have evolved over 4 to 5 years, but since I've drank a lot of comparable sheng I could attempt that.  Earlier on they would've been brighter in tone, and even more intense.  Probably some of the early floral range has evolved to what I'm describing now.  It's odd getting to round 4 and never mentioning a floral aspect, but that is a natural transition pattern.  The teas tend to be more approachable in terms of bitterness and astringency evolving; these aren't challenging.  Depth increases, which is kind of an emergent property, not closely tied to just one or more main aspects.

Whether or not they're better--now versus when newer--would depend on preference.  That's if someone is averse to that early bitterness and astringency, or they see it as positive, when coupled with sweetness and bright floral range.  These warm wood and spice tones would have resembled green wood, or other vegetal scope, often sort of like plant stem, and some could find that challenging.  I might prefer a stronger astringency and vegetal edge trade-off when younger, since it couples with freshness and more floral range, typically.

I really don't care for the grassiness in some green teas, but sheng tends to be vegetal in a different way, more along the line of either green wood or edgier fresh herbs, like some other types of greens.  Warmer medicinal spice notes evolve more later, after aging.  Those are often along the line of ginseng, and these will continue in that direction, but change-over will take time.  I don't think these were stored in overly wet / humid and warm conditions, but they're not as preserved as dry storage causes either.  In the middle is good for storage conditions input, letting them evolve kind of slowly, but to keep changing.

Wawee and Phousan #5:  not so different than last round, so this might be a good place to keep this short, and add more final thoughts on a next round.  The Laos version is picking up more sweetness and a touch of fruit, maybe along the line of dried mango; that will probably evolve to be more noticeable, given the transition direction.

Wawee #6:  I'm still using relatively fast infusion times, 10 seconds or so, and that finally relates to intensity dropping.  The tea isn't fading already, but the early infusion strength is reduced.  This is probably an easier intensity level to evaluate, but that kind of thing does shift which aspects you experience.

Everything is integrating more, so it's harder to break it all into a flavor list.  It's the same range as before, but less distinct.  There isn't enough shift in relative balance of aspects to make it worth unpacking that.  

One thing I haven't mentioned:  these leaves vary in color.  That's surely related to them being heated a bit much in some rounds of kill-green (sha qing) processing.  It's complicated how that might work out, or probably did.  A touch of extra roast can add a positive flavor input, according to discussion of this very point by William of Farmerleaf (covered in this post on "oolong pu'er,").  It might add complexity, using a slight range of processed material.  Then it's harder to say how that would work out related to aging potential or tea character changing across rounds of infusion, since--per my understanding--oxidation and roast input both trade out flavor change but slightly limit tea's durability, how many positive rounds it will brew.

Phousan:  the best this has been; it kept evolving positively over the rounds.  It's interesting how the Thai version was so much more positive early on, and now this seems more distinctive, and complex in a different way.  Fruit even evolves, which I guess we can call dried mango, even though it could be closer to dried longan, or something else.  This tea is better than the Thai version at this stage; so odd.  The earlier spice notes are still present, transformed in how they come across, and now supporting tones instead.  Apparent sweetness seems higher, maybe related to how we naturally associate some flavor range as sweet, more than tied to how some compounds cause that effect.

For really preferring dried fruit themes in sheng this is interesting, seeing how other range can fulfill a different but related function, even though this finally does express some fruit as well.  It's interesting how this evolved to be cleaner, fuller, and better balanced, while the other version became less distinct.  I suppose that might mean more to someone else.  I'll brew both on the stronger side, giving them over 20 seconds to infuse, and pass on final thoughts on that.  Seven rounds of two versions is an awful lot of tea; it will be plenty.  I drank water and ate some nuts prior to this round, and took time with this process, which helps with extending it.

Wawee #7:  this heavier infusion strength works well with the tea character at this point.  That sappy feel returns, and a toffee note stands out again.  Incense spice range, alternatively interpreted as cured hardwood, picks back up.  In between the light last round and this more intense form would still be fine, probably a more natural optimum.

Phousan:  ordinarily I wouldn't like a tea with this aspect set description this much (incense spice, seed spice, basil, with a bit of dried fruit).  It all balances well, supported by a positive feel, a nice level of bitterness, and good aftertaste expression.  I suppose it's even possible that this has better aging potential than the Thai tea, even though that aspect set is more familiar to me, and more a match to my evolved preference.  

If I bought just one of these of course it would be the Wawee tea, related in part to my bias for Thai sheng.

Conclusions / other consideration range:

It's hard to evaluate long term aging potential.  Would be these be great in another 10 to 15 years?  As a young sheng drinker I tend to see the transition optimum within the first 3 to 5 years as a good place to drink the teas, if that works well.  Some are best within the first 6 months, and others better 2 or 3 years, only changed some.  Often it's early challenging nature that indicates a related tea's best form will occur 2 or 3 decades later.

I've tried more old Thai sheng that is kind of ok but not great in the 15 to 20 year old range, and probably only a couple that were older (but I do lose track).  These may be like that, destined to still be fine later on, but not exceptional.  Someone would really have to hold onto one to know.

What about value?  This Thai tea is $45 for 200 grams, with the Laos version nearly $48 for 250, so they might be around $80 cakes at a 357 gram standard size.  That's not bad, for what they are, sort of a Western industry norm.  If anything lots of vendors might place the same range at just over $100, especially for valuing limited aging input as a positive, and a cost on the vendor's side.  Of course buying tea within Thailand or Laos you might do better, for equivalent teas.  I've seen vendors play up an old plant source theme and pass off similar teas for a lot more, but that's normal, that's just how pu'er sales often go.

So as I interpret it these are good value, but also just normal in relation to Yunnan range, pretty much at the standard level.  If you interpret the origin novelty as positive, and value the limited aging input then value is great.  There's not a lot available in this price range, to be better or worse.  If you think SE Asian sheng should be priced lower than standard Yunnan range, as definitely occurred over the last decade, then value might not be good.

Over and over again we see gradually increasing product quality, distinctiveness, and desirability pairing with rising product costs.  It would be hard to find examples this good 10 years ago, or maybe even 5, so it's not comparing apples to apples to reference past options.  The same happens with Viet Sun's Vietnamese sheng; their pricing is much higher than it was just a few years ago, but the teas are better.  Yunnan Sourcing's Impression series started out as blends competing with Dayi 7542, at that cost level too, $30-some to $40 per full sized cake, and now they're mostly all in the general $100 range, but again it's better tea.  The days of buying a full sized $40 cake are over, unless you switch back to factory teas, which are more comparable to the older range from South East Asia.  The form is different; factory teas were often mass-produced blends, but the flaws in older off-area teas made the quality level comparable.

People who drank sheng 10 to 15 years ago are familiar with another earlier form that fills in how things worked then, the white paper wrapped higher quality range, generally custom pressings.  Those would often cost up towards $1 a gram, and came with descriptions that would be familiar today, related to narrow origin sources, and probably even old plant input (gushu).  That probably less often related to wild origin material.  We've done well to experience some of that form transitioning to quite good $100 to $140 standard cake offerings, as that became a more mainstream form, now selling for much less.  Maybe not if it's still gushu, but those claims are hard to evaluate now, as then.  This runs too long to dwell on that tangent, but I do associate a range of character as relating to old plant input, to a mineral base effect being different, with greater general depth, perhaps associating with more aging potential.

the Wawee tea plants (credit Rishi site)

All in all these were pretty good.  The former Wawee material versions I've tried set a pretty high bar to match, and the Thai version was in line with that.  It was interesting how the Laos tea evolved through rounds better, after a less favorable start.  Both are pretty good examples of SE Asian sheng range, and both are a pretty good value, for what they are, and where other options stand.

Where else can you get South East Asian sheng, that are as good as these?  Tea Side sells Thai versions, but their pricing is high, so although quality is good value often isn't.  Chawang Shop sometimes sells versions, but I don't think the quality of any stood out, maybe not quite on these tea's level, even though these are just good, but not necessarily great.  That one Farmerleaf Laos tea is better, but it's priced at $140, for a 357 gram cake, costing a lot more.  

Rishi holds up as a good source option.