Jason Cohen on the Penn State tea club, Gastrograph, and AI food design

 

We next met Jason Cohen related to that online meetup theme, a very interesting contact.  He founded a Penn State tea club at my alma mater (one of them), or really an "institute" since it was both a social club and did research.  We didn't talk much about that PSU experience, more about Gastrograph, a food design company, but I'll summarize a little about that part here first.  Related to referencing his background, his personal blog provides a short introduction, with posts filling in other parts, and a book project site on Chinese tea ceremony is here.

That Penn State tea club is interesting to a lot of tea enthusiasts in relation to representing one high potential channel for developing tea awareness.  The form of that club was unique too, really divided into separate parts covering interest in a range themes.  They supported basic tea awareness, of course, and development of effective brewing technique, but also focused on the ceremonial side, and on tea history, with particular emphasis on Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Taiwanese teas and brewing practices.  They had an extensive collection of teaware for club members and visitors to use, and had renowned tea specialists visit for events and direct support of tea experience.  

All of that was long after my time at PSU, but it would've been great to have it there as a resource when I had been attending.  Jason clarified that his involvement with the Tea Institute ended in 2018, and it later became inactive.  We really didn't discuss how that had worked out, but any university groups cycling through membership and leadership would pose a challenge for continuity.

I haven't been back there in 4 years, and then just passing through

Related to Jason's current career, Gastrograph is a food development research company, now pursuing an alternative direction to standard flavor and aspect preference testing practices.  Jason explained that conventional form:  a research company would set up a testing program, bringing in a lot of test subjects, along with developing prototype versions of the new foods forms they want to test, and would run a large set of tests, carefully collecting as complete data as possible.  

Gastrograph does something that overlaps a bit, but it's different.  They use an Artificial Intelligence based approach, using a bank of prior test data that develops how food and flavor preferences vary in specific areas, and draw on that to project how changes to a current or standard product offering might be received.  Of course there is a margin of error involved, but then some degree of testing could supplement this data driven versus direct testing approach.  And they wouldn't need to get the same preference pattern identified in testing completely right, depending on the context; providing reliable information and direction could be enough.

It's hard to completely get your mind around how this could be applied in practice, and short discussion of that only went so far.  Of course we asked Jason how this might apply to tea, or how they had applied it to tea, and his answer was interesting for placing both their research service scope and loose tea experience.  They've only used the approach in support of RTD (ready to drink / bottled) tea development, and it wouldn't be a great fit for higher quality loose tea.  Jason explained that one reason for this is that variability in the finished experienced beverage version is problematic, that when different people brew the exact same tea variance in water used, brewing process, device, timing, and so on would change their experienced results.  It's helpful, at a minimum, to understand and define what the final food / flavor experience will be, in order to make predictions about locally oriented patterns in preference. 

I suppose one might wonder if development of tea blends couldn't fill in as a middle-ground exception.  Discussion didn't go there, and to some extent what Gastrograph is doing is demand driven, and oriented towards mass produced food items (new versions of potato chips or such).  Tea and herb blends could be a conventional product but not really a mass-market, high demand volume category.

From there we did drift through lots of other interesting examples and details, but for a summary version of what their work is about that's enough.  One might expect that in order to accurately predict local preferences they might need to collect an unusually vast data set to draw on, not just by country but also by regions within different countries, and Jason addressed that it is a main challenge they face.  As one example he mentioned that Germany breaks up into a number of different food-preference regions.  In another case he relayed that they've been slow to develop India as a services base because local food preferences vary so broadly, and by very limited areas, not necessarily by large and uniform sections of the country.  In Italy too, related to that concern; I suppose that's not a surprise.

Years ago when I first talked to Jason I downloaded a Gastrograph app version that supported making spiderweb graphs of food flavor aspects evaluation.  Jason explained that this tool evolved to be the main way they record data in their collection phase, but that it hadn't been developed as a tool for personal use, for example for people to record their own tea reviews or notes.  It's on their agenda, expanding the function and form for that, but the natural evolution of their business direction didn't raise it as an early priority.  Their business isn't focused on tea themes at all, really, or else that would've already occurred.

this would probably be from an earlier version of the app than is presently available

It seems natural enough why specialty tea isn't a suitable subject for this type of preference testing and product development research.  Better loose tea is what it already is; only flavorings and blends actually vary natural product scope.  And it's not a large scale production item in Western markets.  Bottled / ready to drink teas are, and they've done some work related to that.

From there discussing tea culture and history themes was really interesting.  Jason lives in NYC now, and had attended school in PA, but his personal history covered living in a number of other tea related countries, in China and India, and related to spending time in Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong.  It was fascinating hearing a perspective on related parts, about flavored tea preference versus better plain tea, a little on pu'er aging issues, and so on.  More of that would have filled in if we hadn't focused as much on hearing about the Gastrograph direction and methodology, and more about the PSU club, but that was a really interesting and completely unique topic, so it was worth that trade-off focusing on it.

Early on I joined from in the car, with my image lighter or darker by streetlight

Always nice seeing Huyen's family too

Moychay white and black Russian gaba teas

 

I haven't written about gaba teas for years, even though I did drink a number of them last year, from Moychay and at least one a friend passed on.  It's not a favorite type.  I tend to only write about teas I like here, unless there is a story to tell, and I kept considering what that story would be related to gaba but didn't get to it.  I'll fill in a bit of background on my history and take on gaba, with this earlier post covering what it even is.

It's odd in editing this that I've said essentially nothing about these being Russian teas, from Kraznodar.  I guess I just don't have much to add about that.  I visited Russia some years back and put some effort into turning up Russian teas and only found one green version, one like a hei cha but different, and some others from Georgia.

I have reviewed gaba oolong versions here, but it's been awhile.  They tended to be a bit one dimensional, and typically a bit sour in a distinctive way.  There was always the idea that people were feeling a calming effect from the gaba compounds, and maybe I just wasn't sensitive enough to it, or maybe not even experiencing the same physiological effect at all.  Gaba black teas I tried last year were better, and one version prior to then, maybe with a hint of sourness but nothing remotely the same.  But the one-dimensional theme remained; they lacked complexity, and some of the appeal of even moderate quality black teas in a range that I liked.

The Moychay versions that I tried last year, part of that set I said a lot about, were equivalent to the best gaba black tea versions I ever tried (the only one?).  In visiting a local friend's place once, Sasha's, he had a pretty good gaba black tea, maybe 3 years ago.  I still would have preferred a good Dian Hong, or good orthodox Assam, or second or third flush Darjeeling, a nice unsmoked Lapsang Souchong, and so on.  

Sasha!  But this meetup didn't include that tea.

I'll wrap this up at saying all that.  I don't expect to love these teas but the novelty should be something to experience.  I won't be able to really compare this 2020 gaba black--from that earlier set, I think, not from some new teas they sent to review--against the earlier versions, from 6 months or more back.  I might get back to doing more review of the last of one of the others, or comparison with a new version.  I don't remember what else Moychay sent just now (these were provided for review; many thanks to them!), but I have tried gaba sheng before, so maybe one of those.  

To be clear I don't think gaba teas are generally objectively not very good, I just think many versions seem to be missing some complexity (which probably does hold up as an objective take), most include sourness, and are a bit strange (now that part is subjective).  They just don't work well for me, versus the teas not being good.

It's been awhile since I've said this part:  in general reviewing two dis-similar teas together isn't helpful, but if you have tried that approach a few dozen times it probably doesn't take that much away from the analysis.  Adding any more dimensions to experience, even background noise, will drop back the level of detail you pick up, and that includes comparison tasting.  But I still expect that my impression will be roughly the same, just slightly less detailed.  Which could be good, since these reviews tend to run long.  I wouldn't have tried these together if the other gaba black tea versions hadn't already been familiar; it would be too much new ground to cover at the same time.

Review:

Moychay 2021 Krasnodar organic gaba white:  a bit faint and light, but then the first infusion is often like that.  I filled the white version fuller than the black, used more volume of dry leaves, to account for it being a lot less dense, but it's already clear that I undercompensated, and it should've been that much fuller.  I can work around that.  Splitting infusion times doesn't change that much in doing tastings like these; there is no reason for different tea types to be brewed under identical parameters.  

I don't get much at all from this tea just yet.  I suppose it could be regarded as slightly sour, but it tastes a lot like balsa wood smells, neutral, but with something there.  For those with less model or toy building background that's the pithy wood that such things are often made out of, which is solid enough to build things out of but soft enough to cut easily with a box cutter or craft knife version of that.  There's a hint of floral tone in this, and a touch of creaminess, so it will probably evolve in a positive way.  Sweetness is all but missing just yet; that might stay moderate.

Krasnodar black / red (their site only lists a 2021 version now):  there is some positive range to this, and it's different than the other version or two that I've tried (although it is easy to lose track).  At least one of those had a dried fruit range that was nice, beyond being a touch sour and one-dimensional.  This is more towards warm spice.  Not like Oriental Beauty, I don't mean, nothing like that straight-cinnamon Thai version that I just reviewed.  Hopefully that sourness will fade in proportion and make it easier to pick out the rest.  

Where the other had a mild sourness like balsa wood this is a bit towards musty, like cedar or redwood lawn furniture that had stayed damp or wet for a couple of months.  "Wet cedar chest" is probably about as good a singular description as I could use.  In a sense that's a good thing; if anyone ever craved a tea that tastes a lot like a cedar box smells this is it.  It would just be nice if that were a drier cedar box version, one fresh out of attic storage instead of basement storage.

It's odd re-trying the first white tea after this black version (red, to them; they are on that page for naming convention).  It being so much lighter stands out at first, and then that contrast in form of sourness comes next, with the rest of the finer distinctions triggering as a third round of what you notice.

Second infusion, white:  I didn't offset these times much, brewing the black version for about 10 seconds and the white for a few more.  I can add to that divide over other rounds if it makes sense to.  This is developing nicely, and not necessarily in a direction that I expected.  Cinnamon picks up.  This isn't all that far off the Thai Oriental Beauty derivative version I just reviewed, although it probably never will match it for sweetness level of pronounced but narrow flavor range.  The flaws in that tea match the flaws I would expect in this:  narrow range, limited complexity, lack of full feel or aftertaste experience.  

Sweetness doesn't bump much in this, just a little, but more positive wood tones join along with that cinnamon spice increase.  It tastes like a light, sweet wood tone, like fresh sassafras wood, or something along that line.  Fresh tree barks of that type, the kind that peel off as a pliable layer, have an odd sticky feel to the inside and an odd scent, and this isn't far off that.  In a good way; that's a cool range for something to be "woody" in.

black:  sourness ramped up most; that's not exactly ideal.  This is a bit like brewing a chen pi (aged tangerine peel, more or less), just a little lighter on citrus, and not as sweet.  Beyond that it is kind of towards that aromatic wood range I mentioned, or maybe onto tree bark instead, with a hint of spice supporting that.  But so sour.  I've been doing acclimation training to be able to appreciate sourness, maybe mostly in the form of regularly drinking one Thai wild tree material cake, but whenever I drink that tea it takes me a few rounds to get back in that mode, to not see that sourness as a very negative component.  Then as the sourness fades and I readjust expectation by the end of that infusion cycle I like it.  Maybe both will happen for this tea too.

Again it's strange drinking the white version after the black; with the sourness so much less pronounced you don't "get" any of that, and it comes across as mostly a strange neutral tone, more like fresh light tree bark than balsa wood, at this stage.  It's more novel than pleasant, for both, but I suspect the best of these will be drawn out over the next 2 or 3 infusions, versus them being as positive early on.  

third infusion, white tea:  the last round's description still works.  This is positive, but just barely.  Sourness is such a limited component that the other woody part and cinnamon range work, as a flavor experience.  Sweetness being so limited really doesn't help how it comes across, and there is really nothing to say about feel or aftertaste aspect range, beyond that there isn't much.  This might work well as a tea blending base for being so neutral, with just a bit of warm wood tone and spice.  Add some rose petals and cacao nibs to this and it would probably be great.  

I don't remember ever saying that a tea would be good for a blending base in a review; I must have, but that tends to not come up.  Quite often plain teas stand on their own for novel experienced aspects, and when they don't I don't publish a review of them.  A mediocre quality Tie Guan Yin might be sort of what I'm talking about here, versions where the sweetness, intensity, and floral range really don't pop.  Those can be fine as something to have with food, just not the kind of tea you would focus on as an experience.

black tea:  sourness is "letting up" a bit but it still defines this experience.  It seems likely that I could describe a more positive balance and do more justice to describing the rest in the next round.  So I'll skip ahead and say more then instead.

fourth infusion, white:  I should be getting absolutely dosed with those gaba compounds, since I am actually drinking all this, so maybe I can report on feeling calm or centered or whatever else soon.

This tea is transitioning but across such a narrow range that the old description still works well enough.  It's mostly woody at this point, which is how I described the last round, just a different version of seeming woody.  I kind of like it.  With those relatively bad Tie Guan Yin versions I compared this to there is something slightly off-putting in their character, the way a vegetal component comes across.  It's not as cooked vegetables, as can occur in some green teas, but a neutral, woody tone can be more negative than positive in those.  Here it kind of works.  

There is a faint creaminess filling in a little; that helps.  The flavor is somehow clean, and that makes it work.  Odd saying that about a gaba, which I equate with sourness, but the sourness has already dropped out of this, and I'm not as negative about sourness as an input as I would've been two years ago.

black:  the best this has been, by a wide margin.  It is odd how that sourness really dropped out of being the main thing that you experience to quite minor in this round, over two infusions.  Cinnamon is as strong as any other component, and warm wood or spice tones support that.  Even for being sour (some, still) it's clean in effect, not musty, not off in some other way.   There's essentially none of the underlying mineral that gives a lot of teas a good base, and sweetness level isn't where it would be for an average black tea range, so there are missing parts that could be seen as gaps, but what is present kind of works.  It's narrow in range; that's not necessarily good.  A tea with strong, unique, and balancing limited inputs can enable narrowness of character to work really well, but for this it's just not as negative or limiting as it might be.  

To put an example to that a third flush Darjeeling (a true black tea, as I'm describing this example) can be subtle, limited in flavor scope and intensity, and still have a limited range of experience that balances really well, and can even seem more positive for not being complex, or turning intensity up to 10.  I can't compare this to a better third flush Darjeeling; it's just not on that level.  It lacks positive flavor aspects, comparable intensity and complexity (even for that being an example of those being limited), and overall balance.  Maybe it's not that far off a medium quality version of one of those in appeal, where it all pulls together but not quite as well.  There is no shame in not matching up with one of the most distinctive and positive forms out there in tea experience range, so I don't see what I just said as insulting this tea.  It's "as good" as it is, matched against my subjective preference, and just not that good.  It seems a given that others would interpret it differently, since all this is a discussion of match to preference.

fifth infusion, white:  I'll probably leave off taking notes to have something else to attend to, giving the cats their weekly bath before afternoon rain moves in.  They live outside (the two older ones), and are exposed to "street cats" with fleas, and all sorts of fungus and other things that grow in tropical environments, so we counter that risk input by washing them every week or two.  Which of course they hate.

It's essentially the same this round.  It's nice enough, just a bit plain.  For saying over and over that these lack complexity, intensity, thickness of feel, and aftertaste it's the complex base range, slightly full feel (relatively, at least medium), and limited aftertaste that's making this work as well as it does.  Add just a bit of sweetness and any one extra flavor element and this would be really nice.  As it is it's ok.

black:  that last statement sort of works for this; tweak a couple of aspects just a little and this could be much better.  It's actually ok, but not so far from being significantly better.

Conclusions:

These both brewed more than another half dozen rounds, although the last few tasted like cardboard (I tend to stretch teas to check on that).  Both are ok as basic, decent teas, but for me buying either to drink in relation to experienced characteristics wouldn't make much sense (but then that is tied to personal preference for aspect range, to be clear).  For something basic to have with a meal they're ok.  

I tried the white version a few days later and it comes across better when you aren't breaking it down for a detailed review of aspects.  The black is probably like that too; I suspect that I'm overdoing it with comparing both to expectations in relation to regular-oxidation versions, so that when I don't think about the tea much at all it seems better.  I bet if I could come to terms with them being a bit sour all this would shift a lot, as was the case with trying Thai wild origin teas.

I was trying to notice if I felt any more calm after drinking them.  Not that I could tell, but then I'm fairly calm all the time anyway.  Maybe they do affect some people that way.  Or maybe a placebo effect could be effective, if someone only thinks that they do, that it can work to relax more if you think a drink is helping you with that, even if in terms of compounds present it's not.

One main theme in this post has seemed to be why I've not been reviewing any gaba versions for years.  They're ok, but in terms of experienced aspects in relation to my preference generally just shy of a cut-off for what I usually find positive or interesting enough to review.  The last black (/ red) gaba tea version I didn't write about from them was a slightly better match to my preference, as I recall.  It swapped out that cedar wood and cinnamon range for dried fruit and cherry, leaning a little towards cocoa, and it wasn't all that sour.  But it was one-dimensional too, not complex, a bit thin in feel, and not as sweet as is typical for Chinese black teas. 

It's a judgement call whether or not it would be helpful to Moychay in terms of promotion to pass on this feedback.  A post basically saying "I'm not that into gaba; it's so-so and not very complex" might only mean something to people who've never tried it themselves.  It's worth trying, to check out something different.  I would expect that some pressed tisane bars they sent will be more pleasant and interesting to me, and those aren't even tea, in the narrower sense.  Black teas and oolongs are favorite types too, and sheng is mostly what I'm into now.  They sent a number of teas that are more what I love, so I'll get back to doing more typical posts about those.  

It's hard to place how someone else might interpret these same teas, related to continually referring to judging these against my own preference, and why a conclusion might be different, but I think I can address some of that by referencing two website reviews of the white version.

Moychay site customer reviews

In looking up the product listings (I skipped mentioning relative value here; they're unique enough there is no market price for these) two customer reviews mentioned completely different aspect interpretations and general impressions, cited in relation to the white version:

Alexey Makarov:  ...This year, a refreshing menthol-mint bright note can be traced in all Krasnodar teas. It is wonderful. Then there is a delicious fruity sourness, a crust of white bread, softly toasted, and the crumb of the same white bread itself. There is soft candied fruit, but you can't call it pumpkin anymore. Strongly, but pleasantly knits... 

Dmitry R.:  A wonderful multifaceted white, combining the features of bych, luicha and yellow teas. Bright juicy berries, languor, dough, shortbread cookies, yellow fruits (both unripe and overripe) and almost sugary berry jam, and black bread, and sesame seeds, and garden flowers. The infusion plays with gold. The aroma of the infusion, the bottom of the bowl, dry leaf and wet leaf are of barberry and juicy berries, but the wet leaf gradually turns into a fresh rye bun...

It seems like the overall effect and flavor range could be interpreted more positively if you can tie the experience of sourness to a relatable and pleasant food experience, like that of fresh bread, mentioned by both.  Of course fresh bread contains an edge of sourness that's a positive part of that experience, along with other very complex flavors, and texture related experience (the tea won't have that, a crust).  

And that reminds me of the owner of Monsoon teas, the vendor who produced and sold the Thai wild forest origin teas I mentioned, that were sour, saying that while tea enthusiasts tend to not like their wild teas chefs typically do relate to them very positively.  Tea enthusiasts probably tend to relate to sourness as either a processing or storage flaw, for example to a tea being stored too damp, so it's hard to see it as a positive and integral taste aspect.  But in food sourness is definitely not "out of bounds" for any reason.  I like sourness in sauerkraut and Thai sour curry.  

There's a good chance that I'll like this white tea better as I try it more, as probably also occurred with the earlier gaba black teas.  Most tea enthusiasts could probably relate this expectation and acclimation pattern to sheng pu'er, in relation to bitterness, which tea drinkers typically don't value at first.  Later many come to love bitterness, in proper form and balance with other aspect range.

I'm not as sure how to place what I interpret as narrowness of aspect experience, beyond that atypical flavor range, for the set of flavors being narrow, or feel being thin, and aftertaste experience limited.  These reviewers aren't seeing flavor range as narrow.  One cites what they see as a distinctive mint flavor as central to the regional origin character, which I didn't even mention.  

These aren't minty, in the sense that Ruby / Red Jade # 18 cultivar teas are, which are very heavy on mint, to the point of that coming across as eucalyptus, often too strong.  The black gaba tea Sasha shared, that I mentioned, was based on the Ruby / #18 cultivar plant type, and that mint range was fine in that, pronounced but not overwhelming (as I remember; that was awhile back).  It will be interesting re-trying these and considering these additional interpretations as further input.

Moychay 2013 Menghai shu

 

I'm covering more teas from Moychay, from a set they sent for review (many thanks!).  It's shu pu'er.  Versions of shu that I've tried in the past from them have been very consistent, of good quality, pleasant character, and great value.  I suppose all that's a judgment call, tied to preference for aspect range in shu.  The description-list account here may or may not clarify what I like most about this, or where it stands in terms of quality or aspect character for the type, but I'll try to place it.

To clarify what is already clear to a lot of people, lighting background changes the way cameras process images, and see color and other details.  This image and the other were taken in different places in my house, but it's the same tea chunks in the same gaiwan.  Some vendors adjust black tea images so that the material looks really red, and to some extent the tea probably kind of did appear that way in person, and in another sense it's an idealized image versus how it actually looks.  These two "chunks in a gaiwan" images I've left exactly as the phone camera saw them (a Huawei P10, nothing too special), in order to help make the point.  Of course the camera settings version isn't some sort of raw image, it makes choices about saturation level and such.

Review:

I usually always try a first round brewed light

First infusion:  nice; it's shu.  It's earthy, has some sweetness, of course plenty of warm tones, maybe a bit of dried fruit.  A creamy edge is nice.  For people into shu saying something tastes like peat, dried fruit, and cream all together would make perfect sense, but for others that might sound odd, as if those don't naturally pair together.  They do.  I like sheng better, and all shu seems as much the same thing as for any other tea type, but still shu does vary.  I've not looked at a description yet but per my past experience this creaminess would've evolved from an earlier aspect range present, maybe like petroleum, or maybe something else, back more towards peat.

Next, for as I interpret shu, I would try a couple more rounds and evaluate intensity, complexity, balance, feel aspect and aftertaste / length / finish, and see if any novel flavor or other range makes this version stand out.  

I already know it's pretty good shu, it's just about narrowing that down, placing it more clearly.  If I was just drinking tea for my own enjoyment I definitely wouldn't analyze it down into such a distilled set of concepts, but for a review things are different.  That process I converted to a starting point tasting evaluation template awhile back, which I don't use myself, but I do still use those categories in forming an impression (the ones mentioned, and trueness to type, related to any flaws, tied to subjective preference, related to what I see as quality markers, etc.).

What is a quality marker for shu?  It doesn't work like that as much for that tea type as others, as I see it.  For sheng bitterness balancing sweetness is important, and aging potential is a factor, with feel and aftertaste important parts of the experience.  A strong underlying mineral tone can help indicate an older plant source input, which tends to relate to a tea aging well, as well as overall intensity, and specific types of astringency and flavor.  "Balance" is the opposite of a tea quality marker, as I'm using these terms, related to how well all of the experienced aspects work together. 

For Wuyi Yancha a different underlying mineral marks the tea being type-typical, with a sophisticated complexity, and in some cases a liqueur-like aromatic quality, "marking" a tea as better quality.  Then that varies by how aspects tend to group; for a certain floral or towards-liqueur flavor range (aroma) that one distinctive aspect often seems to join, but for Rou Gui that tastes like a version of cinnamon (or maybe really cassia), or even fruit, that particular adjoining aspect tends to not be present.  Dan Cong tend to have depth, and flavor intensity, but to come across as very refined, with a type of astringency people see as type-typical seemingly often related to more medium quality versions.  

For shu it's either good across a standard range of aspects or not; I don't see one or more of those as marking it as better.  Intensity, full feel, or distinctive flavor range could be valued, but those aren't markers in the same sense I'm using that term.

 

looks a bit inky; I might've backed off that timing a little

Second infusion:  flavor is ok, maybe a bit more towards cocoa.  The part I identified as dried fruit isn't really developing.  The earthiness isn't so much along the line of peat but more a dark wood, or a very moderate version of roasted coffee.  Creaminess is distinctive in this; it would make sense if this had a lot more edge to start and was aged for at least 3 to 4 years.  Of course that could be completely wrong, and aging here and aging in Kunming (drier areas) are two completely different things, and I've not mapped out how that works out in relation to shu "burning off" rough edges.  This doesn't have any, and for the most part "young shu" that is really full in feel would also tend to express less subtle and refined flavor, for at least part of that range, it would have some touch of edge to it.  

Without that creaminess I'd guess this was fairly modest quality range shu, even for lacking any flaws, that just happened to be pleasant across a broad range, but with it this may be presented as higher quality shu (relatively speaking; I never will conclude just how good this is on some sort of scale).  Rightfully so, I mean; that type of feel isn't atypical but it's not that universal either.  Shu very often has thick feel to it but not in a way that seems creamy.  Maybe the best example to place that aspect is how Guiness Stout comes across (although I'm not claiming that this is that creamy; I don't think that it is).

Then I just said that shu doesn't have quality markers in the same way, but I've experienced something quite similar in some quite moderate range quality shu.  That had started out quite fully fermented, with a lot of petroleum edge, then within a year or two was completely different.  It would help if I connected with what others conventionally see as "better" tied to my own subjective preference, but to some extent I just don't.  Shu is shu; a highly demanded aged version and something just ok that's a year or two old isn't so different to me.  The range of what varies seems narrow, compared to how lower, medium, and higher quality sheng works out, which can vary a lot across lots of dimensions.  Shu is fishy or not, intense or subtle, somewhat distinctive or else more ordinary; just not as varied. 

Moychay's Russian small-batch versions that I've tried were interesting for at least being different.  To some those differences could almost entirely relate to flaws, to a slight sourness and slate-mineral edge, but it was my impression in trying it (3 experimental batches?) that it just needed another year to rest for that to clean up on its own.  I tried to not drink straight through it, even though I did like it, to check on that in another half year or so.  Evaluated related to what I experienced it seemed a bit so-so but what stood out, to me, was that the versions probably had loads of potential to settle nicely over time.  Glancing back at that post I wasn't clear at all on that interpretation.  That related to notes from first trying it, and my opinion of it and a second version (or that and a third?) changed some over time, as re-trying any tea version will cause.  That business about me projecting ahead and guessing potential is just a guess anyway; I can check back in another year and mention how that worked out.

Third infusion:  creaminess really ramped up, perhaps related to brewing this a bit longer (maybe just over 15 seconds, which is "pushing it" for this proportion), and flavor range improved.  This is quite nice.  The level of mineral base in this works really well.  It's in a slate range, but not musty at all, so like a clean chalkboard, not a damp one.  Flavors are more complex than they come across without focusing in on them; it's a tight set of related range.  Part is root spice, hinting towards a different aromatic spice, with a bit of dark wood as an input, along with including a mild coffee range depth.  The coffee part kind of folds into the rest but that's what seems to be tying it all together.

The creaminess is hard to place in relation to how that comes across in another food.  Cream is creamy, of course, but this doesn't really taste that much like cream.  Like coffee with a bit of cream, sure.  Natural vanilla bean has a really creamy feel; the effect isn't completely unlike that.  It's hard to say if it's an illusion, the product of an association versus really there, but it seems to taste a bit creamy along with feeling creamy.

Fourth infusion:  more of the same, which is pleasant.  I'd expect that minor aspects will keep shifting over the next 3 to 4 rounds, then some limited natural transition will be joined by the effect of extending brewing times a little later on.  Root spice is probably picking up in relation to the coffee input.  The fruit never really developed but I get the impression that a hint of that is adding complexity.  Given how interpretations of teas vary some people might see it as a primary input.  It's like a touch of dark cherry, but it's masked by the clean range earthier flavors that are more dominant.

Fifth infusion:  I'm trying a round brewed quickly.  I really like the intensity of drinking this a little strong, and how that bumps up feel, but flavors might break down slightly differently brewed light (for under 10 seconds).  This is so far from losing intensity that's not an issue, that it might not taste like much.  The mild coffee range comes across a lot more like dark wood made this way, and of course creaminess does drop off.  Fruit doesn't pick up, the main reason I tried it that way.  Aftertaste experience is still reasonable, still positive.  This is pretty nice shu, quite pleasant.

Sixth infusion:  more of the same.  I could probably break out a minor transition shift over the next few rounds but I'll skip the attempt.  It wouldn't mean a lot to me one way or the other if this stayed quite consistent over 4 or 5 more rounds, versus varying slightly.

In reading back through these notes (in editing) I might have clarified more that it lacks any sort of mustiness or off mineral flavor.  It's easy to not include mention of what isn't present, and to some extent it doesn't work to review even shu, kind of a more consistent type, against some universal typical aspects set.  As I try this a couple of more times I would place that better.

Conclusions:

Pretty good shu.  It's hard for me to judge in relation to being above average, well above average, or truly exceptional because I just don't see that much distinction in shu across those ranges.  Of course others who are more into shu probably would.  It'll be interesting to hear Moychay's take.

Per my understanding this material being a bit chopped isn't overly meaningful, since the final results are the main concern instead.  Most likely what they used to make it wasn't of the same quality as higher grade sheng, or they would've left it as that, and not fermented it.  Better sheng tends to not be chopped, and I'm not so sure what to judge of that in relation to this.  It wasn't hand picked?  That alone should limit origin area, since tea from one of the higher prestige mountain areas isn't going to be machine harvested, and this should be some sort of plantation tea.  Let's hear their description.

Cha Dao Shi (Moychay.com, harvested 2013, pressed 2019), 357 g (selling for $35.56)

Shu Puer "Cha Dao Shi" ("A Tea Master") was made in 2019 by the order of Moychay.ru company from the raw materials of Menghai tea region harvested in 2013. 

357-g teacake of medium density, broken effortlessly with fingers into brown and reddish flagella of twisted tips. The aroma is restrained, woody and nutty. The infusion is transparent, dark reddish-chestnut.

The bouquet of the ready-made tea is mature, nutty-and-woody, with spicy, chocolate, milky and berry notes. The aroma is deep and warm, nutty-and-woody. The taste is rich and smooth, sweetish, with a pleasant woody tartness, the slight bitterness of cocoa beans, a sourness of dry berries and nuances of spices.

So related to region it's Menghai, related to pricing as an indicator of how they see quality moderate.  Their inexpensive shu has been pretty good in the past though; they seem to be able to source decent material and get fermentation to go well within a very reasonable cost range, and must be intentionally pricing shu below what they could probably get for it.  Being pressed in 2019 from material from 2013 means this is well-aged; essentially all the fermentation related funkiness should be gone, as it is.  That's plenty of time for any rough edges to convert to that clean flavor range and creamy feel.

Broken / ground leaf shu doesn't have the aggressive astringency most other tea types will have, but there still are compounds present that will extract in a different way related to that form.  Whole-leaf shu tends to be a lot more subtle and milder in character.  This is comparable to that experience range, because aging transition has provided time for any of what I'm calling rough edges to transition, to mellow.  Intensity can drop off just a bit with that 8 years of aging time but depth picks up, and range of experienced aspects can be more pleasant.

The difference in their description (interpretation) and mine isn't as pronounced as it might seem, and every description but berry and nuts they included is mentioned in these notes.  In reading what they used as a description for color, reddish chestnut, reminds me that would also work as a flavor description (the "nutty" part they mentioned just prior).  I was describing something else as like mild coffee, a bit towards dark wood, but that same range is present in a roasted chestnut, a nuttiness, slight char, and woody aspect.  This review description--what I wrote--framing it as cocoa, root spice, dark wood, and mild coffee versus roasted chestnut drops out mentioning there is a nuttiness present, but that works to me.  The creamy feel, which extends to flavor, and general richness is a part of how a roasted nut comes across.  I'm not really changing my interpretation, just mentioning the same flavors can reasonably be broken down in different ways.  About the berry, which I seemed to have flagged as a touch of dark cherry instead, I don't know; I can try it again and see.

If they had first tasted this in 2019, when it was pressed, I'm not sure how it probably would have been different then.  6 years is a awhile to transition, the initial age then.   For being stored in a really dry place at first that shift could go quite slowly, in which case there could've been more change yet to come over these last two years.  People tend to be more negative about drier range storage than I personally think is warranted.  The pattern of changes varies, and as much as that the speed, so that dry-stored sheng that's 8 or 9 years old can still seem kind of fresh, and not as transitioned.  Who knows how that relates to shu versus sheng.

It's hard to place just how good a value this is (impossible to place really, since that relates to making an objective call about relative quality level, and to some extent tea experience is subjective).  But I keep coming back to thinking of how a Yunnan Sourcing in-house range wouldn't have this priced anywhere near $36, because it's pretty good significantly aged shu.  I can reference that more directly by citing their current sales page:

Their lowest cost 2021 version does sell for $36, but among the 2021 in-house versions the average is about $55.  Who knows, maybe all of those cakes are better shu than this (which I kind of doubt), but for sure almost none of it would drink as well right now, the year many of those were produced.  Clicking through detailed descriptions some were harvested in 2020 and pressed later, with some brand new now, and one year is enough time for shu to settle some.  It would take a year of waiting for many to settle to really see what you have, although people who have been through that process a dozen times could project ahead / guess really well.

It led me to start considering theories about why this tea is even selling for that price, or why the others did, when they clear back out of stock really fast (you might buy this fast if you want it, since at a guess it won't still be listed in another year).  Maybe moving a lot of shu bumps Moychay's cash flow, and encourages people to add some other products when they place the orders.  Yunnan Sourcing is probably just playing a longer game at this point; they know that $60-70 per cake is a good bit for shu, but it's going to sell, and demand keeps increasing.  

I don't even love shu, compared to sheng, I just drink it when I feel like experiencing a simpler tea, but in reading those Yunnan Sourcing descriptions it all does sound intriguing.  Moychay sent a second to try, something even more novel, a "yesheng" or wild tree material version; maybe that will be even more unique, even though it's selling as a value oriented version too.