Meeting Susmit and Maddhurjya, Ketlee vendor and Assam tea farmer

 

Back to India for a meetup series, a sort of exercise in networking and idea sharing.  This was interesting for combining a vendor and producer perspective.  A vendor who sells tea directly is both (Maddhurjya does, but he mostly sells wholesale to other outlets), but they are really different things.  Per usual I'll go through what we covered that stood out to me, but not really summarize everything.  A short bio introduces both people who joined first (with Ralph, Suzana, and Huyen also hosting as usual).

Susmit:  founder of Ketlee tea, an online vendor based in India, selling unique Indian teas.  These include an Indian version of sheng, which is particularly unique, and also smoked teas, Indian oolongs, and other range.

Maddhurjya:  Assam tea farmer and producer.  I've met Maddhurjya visiting here in Bangkok, so I've already written about him (in an interview post about development issues, beyond the reviews).  He is trying out new processing methods and equipment, based on traveling and training in China and Taiwan, and importing tea processing equipment.  The main sub-themes seem standard enough now but they are still quite timely and important, developing a small producer based alternative to larger scale tea production, and moving towards organic, whole-leaf, higher quality tea production. 

Maddhurjya is beside me in blue, beside Kittichai, the Jip Eu shop owner

capture with cats

Susmit and Indian sheng development

Before most others joined Ralph, Susmit, and I talked for a half hour about Ketlee's sheng, about how it is, and how development of a type new to India worked out.  As far as he knew sheng--not "pu'er," according to most, but the same type, just without the name that's reserved for Chinese versions--was never produced in India, and I'm not aware of it existing elsewhere either.  We discussed how Singpo falap might be similar, ending on agreeing that it's not the same at all.  I've tried only one version and it was good though, and not so different than a bamboo sheng version from Yunnan (not that everyone would use that type description there), and really not so far off sheng style, even though processing isn't the same.

what it looks like, photo credit the Ketlee site

To summarize, the version Susmit sells is from wild, old-plant sources, plants for which he couldn't identify a clear history.  And he sells other wild origin Manipur material teas, and Indian region versions that aren't so common, from Sikkim and elsewhere.  Good accounts and records go back 250 years or so but the plants were almost certainly there before that.  With better dating attempts some of the living plants there might be older than that; kind of an odd way to revise a limited historical account.

As to that tea version character he said that it's not bitter like Yunnan sheng (maybe just a little?), different in aspect character.  That comes up for wild teas even in Yunnan, and also for variations in South East Asia (a recurring theme in this blog; I've written about that at least a dozen times).  Beyond that we didn't get far for a review flavor list description, or speculation about aging potential, the kinds of issues people would experience by trying the tea.  He did mention how processing development worked out, that making "dragonballs" had been breaking up leaf material so they switched to small cakes.  And producers needed to iron out other processing details along the way, like processing the tea leaves fast enough to limit natural oxidation.

It really makes you wonder how it will age, doesn't it?

A venture in producing and selling local versions of specialty teaware is interesting, especially for including gaiwans.  These are porous clay versions, raising a conditioning issue (some people would use only one tea type per device related to that form), but it's a smoothed finish porous version, so I don't know how that interrelates.  Helping develop a new teaware tradition is a good match with exploring new tea types.

Indian and foreign demand for higher quality--and more expensive--teas

This was a really interesting theme, how ramping up awareness goes.  It's bit by bit, according to Susmit (and Maddhurjya, to some extent, but his less direct consumer exposure narrows experience down to one producer's sales case).  Within India it's developing; that's something I have relatively little feel for, even though I hear a little about how that goes about every other week.  From the sound of it his business being viable at this early stage also depends on foreign sales and demand, since few Indians are open to changing tea types and consumption habits.  But the process has started.

2019 versions of Maddhurjya's tea, or maybe that was 2018

We discussed how to develop that, drawing on examples of other cultures where it either moved faster or was also slow to take.  Susmit's impression is that physical shop infrastructure in countries like Russia--the Moychay case I keep writing about--enables them to support customer tasting, or events, and facilitates learning about brewing and gear.  Selling tea online he can just post descriptions or images, or discuss themes in groups, which only goes so far.  That make perfect sense, and matches my experience, that discussion and posted content can only have a limited reach or impact compared to helping people prepare and try tea.  I've tried to support the same function in holding local tasting events, even setting up a Bangkok based Facebook group for that, but it was inactive even before the 2020 pandemic shut down social gatherings.

Ralph shared how in Germany there are layers to tea interest, vending source scope, and types demand, which is how that would more or less go everywhere, just mapped out differently.  Here in Thailand there are specialty tea enthusiasts, but so few that businesses based around catering to demand are slow to develop.  Outside of Chinatown I'm familiar with two higher end specialty tea vending businesses, with two other exceptions, Peace Oriental (a chain now relying on pre-made blends sales) and Monsoon (a long story; a Thai tea producer making something novel, mostly blends and also wild-origin tea, so it overlaps).  

There are other mall shops, or booths, so maybe we're not running so far behind other places outside China, Taiwan, and Japan.  That one level of German small vendors selling familiar high quality teas (Wuyi Yancha, sheng pu'er, Taiwanese oolongs, etc.) is probably much smaller in scale than the first levels of more mainstream outlets, just perhaps more developed there than here.

Assam tea production issues

I won't do justice to conveying everything Maddhurjya shared, but I'll mention some highlights.  He makes high quality whole-leaf tea, versions of which I've reviewed here, but it's been a couple of years since I've tried them.  He says that he's still adjusting technique and improving them, which I don't doubt, but they were already pretty good then.  That approach is a somewhat small movement in Assam but other producers and vendors have also been headed in that direction.  The awareness and demand side trails that direction, it seems, so that producers also need to develop foreign sales channels to make the business viable (so the same issue for producer level and direct retail sale level).

Related to production, needing to use the same types of equipment foreign tea producers do has been a limitation in the past, rolling or drying machines and such.  To some extent more hand made tea is potentially better, but it's not practical to make tea completely by hand at significant scale (even low volume compared to main plantations), and for some steps results are better from machine processing.  This Farmerleaf reference on processing Taiwanese style oolong adds detail to that.  Maddhurjya encountered significant personal expense in traveling to places like China and Taiwan to study production methods, and to import equipment, and per his account he's not quite to the point to where established volume of production and sales covers that earlier expense.

This is a good place to clarify a broader point: developing a brand new range of tea products is cost intensive.  Kenneth of Monsoon Tea has discussed this with me in the past (the Thai wild tea producer that I mentioned).  Years of exploration and work can precede profitable product development.  It seems this must skew the early supply and demand factors relating to cost of those new-form teas.  Market rates are going to limit what they can be sold for, unless teas are so novel that there is no established market rates, and even then demand patterns have to match up for sales to occur.  

I'm not necessarily saying that Ketlee sheng and Maddhurjya's teas are more expensive now than they will be once ramped-up production covers initial investment and overhead better; demand will shift and increase along with supply-side cost issues leveling out.  I'm just pointing out that if a tea seems a bit pricey that doesn't necessarily mean that a producer or vendor is making a significant profit on it, at least initially.  Or maybe any profit at all, depending on those early expenses.  

To tie all this back to basic economics, as any given producer or vendor gets initial expenses sorted out pressure from market entry from other sources should moderate market rates and set prices for the related goods.  Other factors can disrupt that.  A spike in demand, for any reason, could support keeping prices high, and entry of a large supply of products identified as comparable could drop market rates, potentially making sustainable business difficult.  In an odd twist specialty tea sold as high cost versions can sometimes imply the product quality is high, shifting demand pattern positively just by raising pricing.  I guess that part is marketing, not economics.

We also discussed organic production issues.  It's problematic that certifications can really mean less in places like India and Thailand; testing steps can be avoided, replaced by personal payments.  Maddhurjya knows that he isn't putting chemicals on his teas (pesticides, at least; we didn't discuss fertilization), but for having large plantations located around his farm that doesn't necessarily mean he could pass the most strict forms of testing, due to incidental contact with sprayed compounds applied nearby.  For real forest grown tea the issue more or less drops out; it wouldn't be practical to apply pesticides to plants already growing in a stable and natural local ecosystem.  Per discussing testing with Jan in the Netherlands awhile back completely naturally grown tea may not be completely clear of any tested compounds risk, since some natural compounds can be identified as posing a health risk, and levels of those may vary still based in natural growing conditions.

Maddhurjya cleared up some points in later discussion, about how they stopped using any chemical pesticides, herbicides, or fertilizers since 2002 on their farm.  It originated with a practical concern, his family putting any available funds toward his father's medical care when he had cancer, and education expenses.  Then later that negative turned into a positive, since they learned exactly what the trade-off would be in terms of production impact, and moved on to supporting organic and limited input growth related to potential health impact concerns instead.

Maddhurjya also mentioned that he is developing limited direct sales, just not on the scale or form of setting up a webpage, or exploring in-person channels, opening a shop or attending markets.  At first demand for higher priced tea versions had been a significant limitation, he said, but the relation to other forms of food expenses and potential for a different form of tea experience has opened some people up to the experience of orthodox specialty tea, even at significantly higher costs than for CTC tea versions.

Next steps, future direction

Maddhurjya is helping other local farmers develop their processing capabilities, both in relation to processing steps and equipment use.  At least some; we didn't discuss details, but seemingly in the sense of limited knowledge sharing versus co-op development.  He's focusing on making narrower plant-type input tea versions related to his own production, tying to previous mention that the plant types his farm had already been growing were mixed.  He mentioned potential for new areas of wild tea development; it's not limited to where it is already known and in limited use.

Susmit is really at the cutting edge of sourcing unusual types and new source area products (new to some markets; local teas have been around in India), so his business model is already about new directions.  To the extent possible, increased Indian awareness of other tea range and demand will support further developments.  The sheng is already somewhat well received, but per his account demand in places like the US and Singapore leads demand from other places, with that balance related to India not so clearly narrowed down in this discussion, to be clear.

In discussing these things, and pricing issues, and comparing that to my own preferences and buying habits, it makes me consider to what extent specialty tea is a luxury good, and what that means.  I've posted in an online group about specialty tea types recently and met with comment about how the cost is really high in comparison with tea-bag tea.  For the average person, maybe even in the US, this could be a factor.  

A tea bag can sell for significantly less than 5 cents, and moderate quality loose tea might cost 20 cents a gram, with someone often brewing 3-5 grams per session (with 5 grams producing several cups worth of tea).  $1 for two large mugs of high quality tea (or a dozen tiny cups) seems pretty good to me, but it's not as if this is a limit. 50 cents to $1 per gram really represents the higher end cost of higher quality teas, and it keeps going from there.

Where am I going with this?  None of those numbers is quite to the level of a $20 bottle of wine, or even $10, but it's worth keeping an eye on to what extent people may not have access to this form of interest.  It seems possible that perception is as much a concern as the actual cost.  

Susmit mentioned that with higher end coffee appreciation the equipment costs can really add up, specialized grinders or espresso machines, or even the more basic pour over devices.  In some online tea groups there is a natural acceptance that to really have the full experience you need to buy a tea tray, several $100 or more clay pots, a number of cool looking cups, and so on from there, onto using charcoal to heat a cast iron pot.  You really don't need all that (no offense intended, to people on that page), only a way to boil water and a $10 porcelain gaiwan, which I buy for less that that in the local Chinatown.  But a shared group acceptance that you should own it all is potentially enough to set it as an implied requirement to play a normal role in that specific subculture.  You might need some handmade natural fabric clothes too, later on.

I doubt that cost is main concern.  A lot of people might need a more direct motivation to explore a beverage range, and accept the costs, beyond "it tastes better."  It has to be a relevant part of a culture, or at least regarded as a somewhat mainstream option.  Once it enters personal experience scope, once someone sits down and tries better quality tea, that could become less relevant.  Then specific starting points for types become important, and introductory gear issues, brewing approach, and so on.

Great Mississippi Tea Company black and oolong

 

I've written an interview themed post about the Great Mississippi Tea Company teas, talking to Jason McDonald, and we met both Jason and Timmy in an online meetup not so long ago.  It was great trying some of those teas (which they provided; many thanks!), the first of a larger set.  Beyond them expanding tea options made in the US, which would be enough, they also specialize in making novel tea blends, flavored with other natural ingredients, with those and other products described here.  Those might be even more interesting, but it made sense to start with the plain teas.

I think they sent some of these too

These are the first teas I've ever tried from the US.  That's strange, since I've lived in Hawaii, but I was only into tisanes then.  A local "uncle" has sent tisanes from Hawaii a few times, so in the broadest sense I have tried tea from there, but in general I only use the concept in the narrower sense.

Let's check in on their descriptions of these, starting with the black tea:

Black tea is the most popular type of tea among Americans. This particular black tea is lightly oxidized to allow for its more delicate flavors to come to the forefront of the tea... This has flavor notes of sweet potatoes, molasses, malt, and stone fruit. 

I did say a lot about the low oxidation level but didn't duplicate any of those descriptions.  Alternate interpretations of the same flavors is a normal theme in vendor description, review, and online discussion.  Using a different brewing approach changes a lot, and even changing the version of water used can shift aspects.  I didn't brew this Western style; that will cause essentially the same flavors to come across much differently.  If I get around to it I'll mention how that works after trying it later. 

There is no description of this newer Empress Oolong version on that sales website, but they do describe it in a Facebook post introducing the type:

This tea is a lightly oxidized oolong using older leaves to give it a rich mouth feel and a floral aroma. It is similar to Taiwanese High Elevation Oolongs...  This tea has flavor notes of floral (jasmine and lilac), sweet green (watercress or green beans), and mineral with a buttery after taste.

I'm not great with identifying floral flavors, even jasmine, which is quite common here, but the rest matches what I describe following.

Review:

Black Magnolia:  interesting, quite pleasant.  It seems a bit atypical for black tea range in general, which is usually a bad thing, but this aspects set seems to really work out.  One might move right to a guess that oxidation level is a bit low, even just based on color, and that's one main variable, but it seems like a few inputs cause this to seem different.  

Since the first infusion is light (my typical approach) it's too early for a developed flavor list, which never is going to do it justice later either.  There's an unusual depth to this, and smoothness, and flavor range across a mild root spice range.  The normal astringency, sweetness, and higher end flavor notes are fairly mild.  It swaps out warm depth for those edgy, sweeter, and sharper tones, which per an early take is going to be pleasant and reasonably well balanced.  One wood tone range aspect (or maybe spice) seems a little odd at this stage, which may turn out to be a flaw, but it's also not unusual for some early aspects to drop out over the first infusion or two, so it might be a non-issue.

Empress Oolong:  it's odd how the one characteristic note in Taiwanese oolong is actually the first and main thing you notice in this.  I'm not saying that it's completely type-typical in relation to those, but it shares some of the main aspect range, which is a part that's quite positive.  That main flavor aspect is hard to specify; creaminess and underlying mineral compliment and probably help define it, but they aren't it.  It's closest to floral range but really not that.  

I suppose for it being hard to describe floral kind of works.  It's that but a little towards a new car smell, not like plastic, but aromatic and distinctive in a similar way.  From there one would next evaluate the whole flavor profile, overall balance, how an extra warm tone factors in, and if there are any flaws or limitations.  I'll get to all that.

Black Magnolia, second infusion:  oxidation level definitely was a part of it; this isn't relatively fully oxidized black tea.  That's fine, of course, that level normally varies in black teas.  This is at a lower edge for being in the category but that's fine too.  

I'm not noticing any flaws in this related to flavor aspects; it did clean up.  The depth is really nice, smoothness, richness, and flavor complexity.  One could easily miss the edge usually present in black teas, a bit more astringency, higher sweetness level, sharper or more pronounced higher end flavors, but it's good as it is.  Warm wood and spice tones give it a good complexity, and it balances.  Sweetness level is fine, it just comes across differently, that milder form, which integrates with richness.  Feel thickness and aftertaste are fine, not limitations.

From there developing a clearer flavor list would fill in description.  But that's the part that no two people would ever identify in exactly the same terms.  For someone else root spice could be wrong, and this could clearly be mainly almond flavored instead.  Or listing both would make sense.  A rich flavor out towards sweet potato or yam is hard to identify, integrated with the rest.  I'll give it a slightly longer steep and try a clearer list next time.  I think I'm noticing a touch of cinnamon; I'll see if that develops.

Empress oolong:  it's funny experiencing that Taiwanese oolong flavor in this.  If I were judging this as a high altitude Taiwanese oolong I would say that underlying mineral should be a little more pronounced, creaminess and fullness should be slightly higher, and that floral range flavor edge should pop just a little more, with more intensity.  That it's really in the range to be criticized exactly as a Taiwanese oolong is cool.  Some of the variations could relate to a balance that's not diminished, to an aspects set that overlaps but works in a slightly different way, so let's look at it through that lens instead.

This adds a smooth wood-tone layer to all that, which diminishes those specific notes' intensity.  Whenever I mention wood it seems like an insult to the tea, but wood really covers a lot of range, of types, bark versus aged or fresh wood, sweet versus warm and rich, clean or else musty, like aged sawdust (which would be a flaw), and so on.  Someone could easily "see" that same aspect as herbal in nature, more like chamomile, or similar to a root spice or nut (Brazil nut, versus almond in the first black tea version).  The floral range here is really covering a lot of scope.  One part more similar to Taiwanese tea is brighter, sweeter, and a little more forward, with a part overlapping with this range more like chrysanthemum, much deeper and more neutral.  Complex floral and clean root spice / nut / light wood tone is nice.

Black magnolia, third infusion:  this keeps improving, adding intensity and range.  Some of that could relate to variations in infusion time but I think it's also transitioning nicely.  That cinnamon spice note did increase again.  One could easily interpret part of the range of this as cocoa, I just wouldn't tend to, since I'm accustomed to some versions of black teas really including a cacao / chocolate blast, and this is subtle.  There's more I'm just not placing.

This is really a lot like I expected the oolong to be, to be honest.  From there other range is what I'd already mentioned, mild tones that could be interpreted differently, as almond, root vegetable, or even root spice, a warmer tisane range (not very descriptive, that part; maybe like chamomile), or even wood.  Just a touch more astringency and that sweeter and sharper black tea edge might help this a lot, but it's nice as it is.

Empress oolong:  not varying.  If anything this shifted closer to standard Taiwanese light oolong range.   There is actually a range related to those, with factors like growing elevation, plant type, and degree of oxidation making a big difference.  It would be cool if I could pin that down, for example saying this tastes like Qing Xin from a certain area and elevation, with a light but notable oxidation input.  Someone more focused on Taiwanese oolongs really could; I drank more of that range 5 years ago.  I just never really moved on to become a sub-type expert, gaining enough exposure to a high quality range and repetition to learn patterns.  I suppose that I have drank more oolong versions from Thailand, Vietnam, and Indonesia than most, but that doesn't clarify simple cause and effect sequences at all.

Fourth infusion, black tea:  cinnamon is getting even more pronounced in this black tea version; I bet it will be better and better as it's stretched for more rounds, brewed a bit longer.  this isn't necessarily even beyond a halfway point yet, but I'll stop making notes in order to go do things, the weekend routine.  Usually the stronger astringency edge that comes out from that isn't positive, but in this case it has been so mild I think it will be.  This being more subtle than black teas typically are could come across as a lack of intensity, but it does have a depth to it.  Probably adjusting brewing process and infusion strength would help it come across even better.

oolong:  more of the same, not really evolving, which is fine.  A trace more green wood edge might be picking up.  Floral range probably is shifting slightly round to round, but this description of that has been so vague it doesn't do it justice.  I'm noticing more rose petal range than I think it had before.

Conclusions:

Both are good tea, both distinctive and pleasant.  I really expected more flaws; maybe I was being pessimistic.  I suppose someone could experience all of this black tea character as a flaw if they don't love the range and balance, but really it's not that, just how it is.  For it being uncharacteristically low in astringency level I thought it worked.  It's really not my place to judge style choices or make suggestions but just a bit more of that--astringency edge, and related sharper flavor intensity--might have been good.

It was surprising that the black tea wasn't really in the range of a true black tea, probably most related to the low oxidation level, but the oolong had matched the main flavor aspect in Taiwanese oolong, which would seem to be a lot more challenging.  Both were good, the main thing.  

All in all quite pleasant and a great start.  It will be interesting trying others.

a school cooking assignment

Keo and the cats

Moychay pressed tisane bars

I'm reviewing two pressed tisane bars from Moychay.  I've tried a couple in the past, which I really liked, so it was great seeing that they sent some along with some tea to try and review.  Again many thanks!

When I first looked up the versions the pricing seemed low ($4 per 50 gram bar, or about that).  Really tisanes tend to not cost a lot, so it's just a normal price, but for a well-designed blend and easy access processed form it seems quite fair.  I'm not familiar with such things being available here in Thailand or in the US market.  Tisane blends maybe, they just wouldn't be all that common, but those pressed as bars maybe not.  

For teas compressed forms are often used as a way to support convenient storage for aging, which I guess could relate to these, but in general it just seems like catchy and convenient form.  A half dozen bars take up very little space that way.  We bought a good bit of chrysanthemum in China two years ago and it's interesting seeing how it changes with age.  It's probably better now instead of worse, but really just different.

four more bars to try; nice

I never will really critique or evaluate these in relation to the mix of herbs.  I've tried looking up tisane health benefits before, and it's possible to make a start on that, but it would be really hard to check if a certain mix of herbs makes sense, or is likely to be healthier than taking any one random version.  I might look into that again, related to these.

I drank a lot of tisanes for awhile, for the better part of 20 years, but I just wouldn't overthink that part.  I bought versions and mixed them as seemed pleasant, hoping that maybe that health benefit part would work out on its own.  Sage was by far my favorite back then; I loved it so much that I wouldn't blend that, so I could enjoy it alone.  I was mixing all sorts of plant leaf, root, and bark versions beyond that, with some flowers mixed in but not nearly as much of that.  I should be able to say a lot more about other favorites but I gave up that habit when I moved here, 14 years ago.  Kind of a shame, since Thais drink other nice tisanes, but I got into tea as a result, so it worked out.

I'll put a description of everything they sent at the end, including the list of herbs and their descriptions, and just copy the ingredients part here for framing:

Romantic:  Blooming Sally, Ginger, Juniper berries, Red root, Anise, Hibiscus, Rose hip, Rowan chokeberry, Elder, Acacia inflorescences, Cardamom

Cherry Sea:  Fermented cherry leaf, Willow-herb, black, large-leaf, Tver region, Linden blossom, Hibiscus flowers (Karkade), Calendula

"Romantic" left, in all photos

Reviewing Romantic and Cherry Sea tisane blends:

a bit extra light, my normal approach

It goes without saying that Gongfu brewing herb blends is a bit strange.  It would be much more conventional to use a Western approach, to use a basket strainer or teapot and give them a 4 or 5 minute soak, and then another.  One would have to try both approaches to see what gets gained or lost in using either.  

In mentioning trying these online someone suggest that simmering it may work out really well.  It could; people tend not to simmer tea because what gets extracted after the first 8 to 10 minutes of hot water steeping isn't as positive, but in this case that may be the best approach.  Or just simmering it when mostly spent might be worth trying.  Then it occurred to me that if you simmer this mixed with an even amount of tea and then add water to dilute to a suitable level you would essentially replicate samovar brewing.

Romantic:  first infusion is so light a real review will start on the second, but I'll mention first impression anyway.  This is a bit tart, like a cranberry.  It's going in a really positive direction already though, sweet and complex.  The one trade-off related to tisanes, in comparison with "real tea," is that they include less flavor complexity, intensity, and other aspect range depth, less feel and aftertaste.  Blending can offset that, since brewing any one tisane (herb, flower, spice, etc.) only goes so far towards that.

Cherry:  again, tart.  What I interpret as hibiscus stands out, but there is more going on.   This reminds me of something I'm probably not going to place, some herb blend or single type I had much earlier in my tisane exploration.  Maybe Red Zinger, maybe something else.  I suspect that tartness is brewing out faster for some reason but these will pick up a lot of depth and balance soon enough.  Comparing the two some balancing warm tone really works better in the "romantic" version; I wonder what that is?  Again it's too early to call these.

a bit too strong; tisane infusion timing isn't very familiar

Romantic, second infusion:  I let this infuse for a bit over 20 seconds, a long soak by "real tea" standards.  It's a tisane; it will be fine.  I don't know what optimum will be but at least this will get transition moving [after trying it optimum is a shorter time].  Tartness still stands out but that warmth is strong enough that it contributes in an usual way.  It's a little like fennel seed; that kind of thing.  A cranberry sort of tartness and fruit range flavor is strongest, most pronounced.  There's a minty aftertaste.  And a lot of other aftertaste; usually tisanes don't work out like this.  Something in this is really naturally sweet.  I'd expect it all to come together even better once the parts all get infusing next round, but it's pleasant and interesting now.

Cherry Sea:  cranberry tartness is giving way to a tart cherry tartness.  It doesn't have quite as much depth as the other but plenty is going on.  Again I get the impression that this is still settling into where it will go for balance of inputs coming together.  For using a 4 minute soak at a much higher proportion all that would get combined, much like combining or "stacking" these first 4 or 5 infusions.  20+ seconds is a bit long though; 15 would be fine for this proportion.

It's interesting switching back to try the "Romantic" version after the cherry.  That warmer spice range makes it seem to have a lot more depth.  If the tartness eases up the blast of fruit in this second tisane blend could be really nice in a different way, but it sort of works for me tart like that.  It would be hard for one single tisane input to have the depth or range of either of these.

Romantic, third infusion:  I might have went too fast with these, under 10 seconds, but that will enable describing how infusion strength difference adjusts what comes across.  It's kind of unrecognizable, drinking the same blend infused half as long, with some transition for developing.  It's enough flavor, I think, but completely different.  Tartness is all but gone, probably much less pronounced at this infusion strength (what you taste shifts a lot with infusion strength, not just relative intensity).  

That warm tone is nice.  It comes across as linked to a warm and sweet aftertaste that lingers on the rear of your tongue.  Feel aspects tying to a tongue location is normal, but it's odd feeling like a taste sensation is there.  Not the rear of the throat either, as people describe over and over in relation to sheng pu'er, at the rear of the tongue in front of that part.

Cherry Sea:  much closer to how it had been last round than the first, just lighter.  Tartness isn't dropping out in the same way.  I suppose if someone hated tartness this just wouldn't work for them; a preference take on cranberries should determine that as well as anything.  It's coming across as complex in relation to a single tisane, but the other has lots more depth and range.  I suppose it could be that tartness will fade in this too, revealing something else, but it's just running behind the other.  

In tasting the first after the second it's not just the warmth and depth that comes across, it's a sweetness and flavor range I associate with either a bark or root spice (I'm guessing bark, but those two things come in such a broad range you can't really combine them).  One might think they know all about bark spices from cinnamon and root spices from ginger and ginseng but it's not like that, a lot more complicated.

Romantic, fourth infusion:  for once I'll need to wrap this up to go to bed; that's a novel potential related to drinking tisanes.  Or putting the kids to bed first, one last test of my patience before the end of the day.  To cite an example they are running a small floor vaccum in the other room now because the kitten hates it, so they're doing that to see how it reacts.  It's growling; we have a really grumpy older cat who taught her that vocabulary range.

This is actually starting to flatten out a bit, although I'd guess that it's far from spent.  Mixing those 4 infusions might have been better.  I'll stretch one more infusion for longer, over 30 seconds instead, and let this drop.  Warm range and spice depth is nice in this; that spice wasn't present in the same way before.  It's like a touch of black pepper, that kind of spice.  Since those bars break up into a good number of squares (9 per 50 grams, so 5 1/2 grams each) it's worth considering trying both mixed together.

Cherry Sea:  tartness will go the distance in this version, but it is subdued, as all the flavor intensity is dropping off a bit.  Going extra long on one early infusion probably pushed back where these would be by one infusion count.  This really could just be cranberry and willow herb, based on how it comes across.  I think lighter range inputs are giving it depth that's hard to appreciate as distinct flavors.

Both, fifth infusion:  largely faded, but a depth is hanging in there.  A trick from brewing "grandpa style" could probably draw more out of these, adding a touch of a fresh "tea" input to restore the rest of the experience range, without giving up the thinner base these can still provide.  I'm not sure what would work best for that; it wouldn't just have to be more of the same herb blend.  A bit of cacao husk with one of these would be really nice, or ground cacao nib (dark chocolate flavor, more or less, two parts of the plant used to make that).  That sounds like an American take on everything, doesn't it?  It's all better with chocolate, gravy, or cheese, just probably not all three together.

These bars really should have fantastic potential for cooking too.  Either one of these simmered and then used to make oatmeal would be great.  Or any number of other things I usually wouldn't even consider in relation to "real tea;" infused in white vinegar to make a salad dressing, or infused in vodka to make a mixed drink.  As for blending with tea I'm not so sure; that could be pushing it.

these photos cited from the Moychay site

Forest Silence:  

Blooming Sally green, Melissa, Tutsan, Raspberry, Medicinal lungwort, Badan, Rose hip, Pine buds

Healing and harmonious composition, heals the whole body, soothes and collects. The taste is not obtrusive, with the aroma and taste of a taiga forest, conveying the calmness and silence of a pine forest. 

Romantic (no site product description; a friend translated this one for me from the label)

Blooming Sally, Ginger, Juniper berries, Red root, Anise, Hibiscus, Rose hip, Rowan chokeberry, Elder, Acacia inflorescences, Cardamom

Caucasus herbal tea cake 

Ingredients: Oregano, St. John's wort (Hypericum perforatum), alpine thyme, mint, Epilobium willow-herb, sage, raspberry leaf, rose blossom, hawthorn fruit, rowan berries, rose-hip (Fructus Rosae).

All ingredients are harvested by experienced herbalists in the Caucasus Mountains. The components and their respective proportions provide a balanced healing effect - immunity enhancing, digestion-normalizing and a strengthening of the nervous system. The bouquet is herbaceous-minty-fruity, the taste is rich, but without bitterness and astringency.

Cherry Sea

Fermented cherry leaf, Willow-herb, black, large-leaf, Tver region, Linden blossom, Hibiscus flowers (Karkade), Calendula

Calming

“Calming” is our pressed herbal blend made from wild plants.  Composition:

Willow-herb (Ivan-tea); Melissa; Rose hip; Linden flowers; Hibiscus sabdariffa flowers; Oregano; Hop (Humulus lupulus); Chamomile; St. John's wort (Hypericum perforatum); Calendula

The recipe for blend and illustration was compiled by an expert of wild plants and a famous botanist in Russia - Natalia Georgievna Zamyatina.

Ivan (willow herb) in a red robe (Ivan-fermented Tea, cut leaf Da Hong Pao),

Willow-herb, black, large-leaf, Tver region; Da Hong Pao, broken leaf

The bouquet of the finished tea is warm, grain-spicy with floral, berry and woody notes. The aroma is rich, multifaceted. The taste is strong, juicy, silky, sweet, with a slight bitterness and a spark of spices.

Editing notes: that sounds fantastic.  I've tried a Da Hong Pao pressed bar from them that was just great before, and it could match really well with willow herb / Ivan chay.