Attending a detox seminar; what's it all about?

I just attended a Bangkok Expat Healthified group detox theme event.  Of course I was a little skeptical; people use that concept in a lot of different ways, many that make no sense.  Your liver and kidneys remove toxins from your body, not special teas, vinegar, alkaline foods, or whatever else.  Bear with me; it all makes plenty of sense, and the parts that don't work are also interesting.  I went in with an open mind, a very practical approach, with this review covering what people said in three separate presentations.

not about those products or marketing (photo credit)

As tea goes detox tea tends to be a strong laxative or diuretic product, both of which will help a person temporarily "cut weight" but with no health benefit; the opposite instead.  Those contain things like senna.


Fair warning:  this really isn't about detox tea or slimming tea, or any tea at all, so for the most part outside the scope of this main blog theme (although I do mention how it connects at the end).  I just watched a Tea Fix podcast on detox issues related to tea but they were focused more on rejecting the standard claims and those herbal products, and to some extent tea as a miracle health product in general.


Since none of the problematic herb tea themed detox ideas came up, in this or any talks, what was "detoxing," to them?  Really three different things in the three talks, which overlapped quite a bit.


I will be critical of parts of what they said and supportive of other parts.  The idea isn't to condemn any particular approach or to completely endorse one either.  The ideas were interesting to me.  A later section here interprets how something more complicated than people passing on good, helpful information mixed with some flaws in background context or conclusions is going on.

Olga Vita on detox

Details about an event coming up on the 26th, with Olga Vita presenting more along the same lines, might work to specify this theme better, or serve as a resource.

the next related longer talk; more details here

Her talk was interesting, and it made some really good points.  Not all of it worked for me.  One has to be careful with both the bias towards accepting things you want to be true and rejecting those you expect to be false.  Maybe no one in that room had issues with the latter, but both throw off clearly considering ideas that you encounter.  That's essentially a summary of confirmation bias, a common flaw in reasoning.  It really should already be familiar, but here's a good definition just in case:

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning.


Back to the central theme, the first talk of the three was more a short introduction to a larger set of ideas that weren't covered in detail, but there were some clear themes and distinct ideas.


Detox was presented as a general term for eliminating anything harmful, not even limited to toxins as negative compounds in the body.  Processed food or sugar based diets were presented as unhealthy, or use of artificial flavors or scents.  That's sort of cheating, narrowing toxins down to known, common sense problems.  Using a definition that broad working in an unpleasant work environment could be considered toxic.  It definitely is unhealthy.


Olga presented drinking water from a plastic bottle as unhealthy.  That could be, and it's not that controversial, since that's been covered in legitimate news for awhile, that traces of that plastic gets in the water.  And she raised cell phone EMF output as a risk, which also might be right, or might not be so bad.  It would seem odd if no negative health effects are ever connected with all the types of signals that pass through us.  It's not natural.

(photo credit)

Contact with nature was presented as positive (for a sketchy reason; toxins are positively charged but the Earth is negative), but the point still works.  Walking barefoot in Bangkok might put you in contact with parasites too, but there would certainly be a psychological benefit. Wearing shoes or even flip flops all your life is unnatural.


You don't need ancient Chinese medicine and that one crazy footpad nerve-energy pattern model to sort out that walking barefoot is very refreshing; you can just walk around and draw your own conclusions.  The same applies to being around plants instead of inside shopping malls or walking on concrete.


She recommended skipping breakfast, the intermittent fasting idea, that eating for 14 hours a day is overdoing it.  Again, maybe. How to judge that?  Surely different cycles would work best for different people, based on all sorts of inputs. It's pretty far off the track of colon cleansing, a topic that didn't come up until the next presentation.


A recommendation to only use fasting to the extent you are not making too big a shift made good sense.  It was easy to miss that this was one of the more practical, positive themes she brought up:  you start from where you are.  Someone really into a poor diet, processed junk foods and sodas, would shift off that first. Next someone could move on to a temporary raw diet, then later up to juice fast, and after acclimation onto water fasting (not one after the other, as an longer term staged program).

I experimented with periodic juice fasting when I was younger and that seemed fine, not difficult or shocking. I'm not sure if it actually helped but it seemed like a good idea at the time, and I still believe that it's unnatural and even harmful to never let your body get a break from the digestion cycle.  I can't justify or explain that; it's just my impression, based on limited personal experience.


A bit on structured water started to go off the rails, per conventional wisdom.  Finally, something to criticize.

The idea is that water remembers a form it took in the past, a shape, so specific forms of stirring rearranges it, or certain mineral concentrations set up structural patterns. The basic premise is nonsense but all the same some of the steps taken to "structure" water may still be positive and useful, even if based on theory that's dead wrong.  An example:  she recommended to drink natural spring water versus treated water, and to select water based on mineral content, or treat it with minerals.  All that might work.  It's quite possible that water is healthiest if you drink it with certain minerals included, and in general we don't keep track of which are in different versions of water, or at what levels.

yeah, no (credit)

Someone might wonder, how can I be so sure that "structured water" isn't a real thing, that there couldn't be anything to it?  It violates the basics of what water or any fluid even is.  Anyone who took basic college chem classes would know better; fluids don't have molecular pattern shapes, Brownian motion or movement causes molecules in any liquid to move around quite a bit.  Not in the same sense as heat representing a level of carried energy and motion in a solid; all the molecules move in relation to position to each other.  It's not simple to look up what any one person is referring to related to that subject, which could vary, but I have ran through background review on this topic before.

Again there might be more going on than the description being wrong; in some rare cases useful conclusions could be masked by completely wrong explanations.  It seems like in most cases dissolved levels of gasses in water could be adjusted by physical manipulation that's described as giving the water structure.  In this case it's unlikely that would be helpful though, since we have another organ that's much better at taking in and removing gasses than our digestive system, in the form of our lungs.  Drinking water that's not contaminated by traces of unhealthy substances seems a much more important concern than all the rest.

I'll say more about a general impression at the end, but I liked the content, in general.  And Olga seemed genuine and nice enough, which helps.

Second speaker:  Rasayana retreat (a spa, really)

This speaker also seemed nice enough (I lost track of her name, and it's not in notices and such), and for the most part the content was clear and grounded.  Again it seems odd to specify that eating a lot of raw foods or drinking juices, or just drinking plenty of water, is really "detoxing."  You sort of expect more from the theme.  It's as if someone was going to pass on a special method to have more energy and then told you to get enough consistent sleep at night.  That would help, by the way.

The second speaker stuck mostly to some plain common sense ideas, with that bit about colonics mixed in but played down (about getting enemas).  She offered retreat services, endorsing outings based on eating healthy foods, including a lot of raw foods and juices, and getting massages, etc.

I'd skip all of it myself, given the colonics tie-in, but who knows, some people are into that.  Two of my good friends were back in the 90s, but it's my impression that the trend either came and went or never really did resonate with many.

I'm mostly cutting out a detailed account of the rest she talked about because Olga went a little further with interesting ideas.  The theme of doing a spa retreat, getting massages, eating healthy foods, and probably getting some advise about lifestyle revisions seems sound enough.  As for colonics, maybe not.  I'd rather drink that senna infusion, a powerful laxative, which I also wouldn't do; just eating more fiber and drinking more water would be fine.

Their Facebook page talks a lot more about raw foods workshops and events, really downplaying the standard spa theme (massage, etc.).  It's good they branch out and explore different directions.  My wife loves massages so we're always doing that on vacation, less so related to the Thai version where they bend you around and use pressure points, more the typical oil type.  She trained to do Thai massage--she's crazy; she learns all sorts of things she doesn't need to know, like studying Mandarin--so once in awhile she will do my forearms and hands, or touch up a "monkey fist" in my back.

about 100 photos down their FB section standard spa themes come up (credit)

Digital Detox Asia

The last section was on digital detox, putting your electronic devices away for set periods. Again that's cheating, isn't it, shifting detox to mean something so practical and common sense related as putting the phone down once in awhile?  It wasn't quite that simple.

Again an upcoming event notice (for a yoga retreat Sept. 28-30) might help lead to more on who this is and what they're about.

yoga; that's pretty the theme (different version of their next event notice)

They were selling something (they all were, really), in their case yoga retreats.  That probably would be nice, but you don't need to go on a yoga retreat to turn your phone off for a weekend.  Someone mentioned that you can still buy a "feature phone," Nokias and such.  Apparently that's going to be a new thing now, "digital detox" and buying a non-smart phone.  After that maybe getting land lines will make a comeback, or it will become fashionable to talk to people face to face, or use paper again.  Nah.

Of course the main point works.  We all intuitively know that everyone walking around like zombies staring at small screens is horrible, but it hooks you.  One of the guys recommended not checking messages until lunch. He definitely doesn't work in IT, or any corporate job.


This is where some of the ideas break down; the personal rules and standard practices should be different for a yoga instructor versus a desk bound employee.  The same applies to someone running a spa, or charging what a Bangkok English teacher might earn in a week for a two hour alternative practices health consultation.  Some of all that would relate to healthier, more natural living, to practices people should consider and adapt, and some might just relate to those people not experiencing typical daily demands.

Everyone would live a more natural, balanced life without working a 9 hour work-day with 3 hours of commuting tacked on (the standard Bangkok work-day; unfortunately not a worst case).  Add a couple showers and meals to that and you can either experience normal sleep or time to spend on whatever work-life balance you might achieve, as long as you bang that out.

Initial conclusions

On the way home I couldn't help but consider, what did I learn?  Stop eating sugar and processed food, eat raw fruits and vegetables, drink plenty of water, pay attention to the source of water, take breaks from smart phones, spend some time in nature, do yoga, and skip breakfast.  I do eat a really light breakfast, fruit and just enough starch to allow fruit and tea to digest better, and on the weekends eat breakfast later because that cycle feels more natural.  I was already ok with very limited forms of fasting.  I used to do yoga; it was good for centering for snowboarding.

I suppose it was better than I expected.  Very little actually conflicted with common sense and next to none seemed wrong.  At the short talk summary level all the next level of detail was hard to evaluate.  I suppose longer versions may have offered more details, some probably helpful and useful, and maybe some a bit out there.

They were all selling things, so the next concern might be if those things were really of good value, or if alternatives would provide better options.  Spas and yoga retreats are around.  I'm kind of skeptical of personal counseling about "progressive" health issues and approaches.  For someone on that page, why not.

It would seem easy for people with strong biases on either side to come to the other two opposing conclusions, that beyond the familiar ideas it was all nonsense best avoided, or all clearly useful, practical input that should be embraced.  Without either bias half just seemed like common sense, some interesting ideas came up, and there were only a few gaps.

Thinking it through a little more, about subculture

After giving it more thought it's probably not the right question "which parts of the subject of "detox" are real and useful?"  It's almost not about that.  That's what people are looking for in going to an event like that, on the surface, but underlying that something entirely different seems to be going on.  A story is going to help explain what I mean.


A friend in Thailand is into some of that New Age scope, but selectively so.  He's into yoga, travelling in India, "metaphysics," or at least parts of what people would consider that, and is open to all sorts of ideas that some would consider marginal (aliens are in continual contact with us; that sort of thing).  And running; that kind of fits but kind of doesn't.  I''m not sure he looks the part; his short hair could fit in anywhere, and he doesn't wear clothes that look Indian, as far as I know.  And he's not a vegan.

What difference, one might wonder, if he doesn't make the choice to not eat meat, dairy, or eggs?  According to him that's seen as a critical component of that general lifestyle in the circles he might otherwise be a part of.  To some extent he is completely excluded for that.


The deeper question beyond if detox works or not, the parts of related ideas, is what kind of social sub-group people are really trying to be a part of, and what kinds of buy-in are required for that to happen.

yoga retreats are not an uncommon theme in Thailand (photo credit)

As far as that group goes the most superficial level one could sort through just by looking around.  A lot of people's clothes did look a bit Indian, but most wouldn't stand out anywhere.  Some had evident tattoos (in that picture above a tribal tattoo would seem to work as in-group marker).  Some guys had beards, and wearing sandals fit the general look.  Most could've passed for any working Thai professional.  Doing yoga really would be central, but you can't necessarily see that in an external image.

these cultures would not overlap (credit Little Bangkok meditation group)

I'm approaching all that from a completely different perspective, considering whether I really would want to be any part of all that, not sorting out a form of participation that would be agreeable.  Given how constrained my lifestyle is for the most part it's just not an option; I spend time on kids, not other things.  Tea works as a hobby interest because I can narrow it into where it fits, or drop it for a week, beyond having the beverage with meals.

It makes me think back to what I embraced or didn't embrace when I was in my 20s, and how that played out.  I wasn't joining any groups, or following any teachers; none of it.  Then again I was a stoner into outdoor sports, doing some yoga and being a vegetarian.  Doing the occasional juice fast wasn't a lifestyle choice relating to joining any subculture; back in the 90s people just did all that.


Tea isn't part of what I was doing then (although I was into tisanes, herb teas).  I suppose some people in that event would drink tea, but it seemed to clearly not be a central theme.  Do they tend to drink vegetable juice, as we did back then?  Probably, or maybe not.

This leads to considering how much would be central as adopted practices, to joining social groups related to yoga, natural lifestyle, vegetarian diet, and so on.  What would be mandatory, and what optional?  That must vary.  One branch probably makes it mostly about religion, with others not even touching on that.  The clothing makes for an interesting consideration and marker, and tattoos.

taken far enough any subculture can seem like a caricature (credit)

All of this isn't heading towards any tidy conclusion.  As an expat (foreigner) I tend to explicitly consider how cultures and subcultures work.  Really simple themes tend not to emerge; lots of broad patterns play out in different ways.  It's interesting living in a relatively international version of a large city to have access to a higher count of those subcultures, but still I'm too busy for much exploration, and certainly for joining in.


Back to the detox idea, what it's basically about, the strength and weakness in the implied definition is that it's about anything that's bad for you.  Even something good for you, like drinking plenty of water, or getting exercise, would be bad for you in the wrong amount.  McDonald's food and potato chips make for the low hanging fruit; of course heavily processed, chemical laden foods aren't generally positive.


Back to the subject of tea (finally), millions of people in Bangkok are drinking RTD (bottled) or powdered, artificially flavored teas every day, not that far off the problematic practice of eating meals out of a 7/11.  Brewing whole-leaf teas with nothing added to them doesn't cost more; quite a bit less instead.  Those are likely to be lower in contaminants, with a potential long list of real health benefits resulting from consuming them.  That short summary raises a lot of issues that are impossible to confirm (the risks and benefits parts), but it's clearly a case of swapping out chemicals for natural food versions.

I don't talk a lot about health issues in this blog because there isn't much to say.  Tea is probably healthy, but mapping that out in detail is problematic.  Even research study evidence tends to vary, and there's a risk of biases initiated by funding for studies affecting the outcomes.  It was interesting to consider some health issues related to the event, and the detox theme, and to think through how it applies to social themes, even though I won't be changing much about my life based on that input.

focusing on that one long term project these days, raising kids

Yiwu Ding Jia Zhai pu'er vertical tasting (comparing different years)

tasting in progress

It was an interesting experience,  a vertical (multiple years) tasting of teas from Yiwu, more specifically from the Ding Jia Zhai area.  I wasn't making tasting notes so I'll keep this general, just some random impressions, after a quite detailed event summary that outlines the teas:


Puerh Tea Tasting Event - Yiwu "Ding Jia Zhai" vertical tasting - 8th October - 14.00 BKK time
งานชิมชาผูเอ่อร์ "ยี่หวู่ ติงเจียจ้าย" แบบ vertical tasting ข้ามปี วันที่ 8 ตุลาคม เวลา 14.00
รายชื่อชาดังต่อไปนี้


Yiwu Dingjiazhai 2013 ร้านชาทีดี (Teadezhang)

Yiwu Dingjiazhai 2011 Chen yuan hao

Yiwu Dingjiazhai 2008 Xi Zhi hao 

Yiwu Zhengshan 2005 Chang Yu Hao

และชาเก่าพิเศษ หนึ่งตัว (and a special old "secret" tea)


Address: The Hive Sukhumvit 69, 200m from BTS Prakanong


ค่าเข้าร่วมงาน 700 บาทต่อท่าน รวมค่าชาและสถานที่จัดงาน ขออนุญาต "งดขนมขบเคี้ยว" เพราะจะทำลายจุดประสงค์ในการชิมชา

Attendance fee 700 Baht per person inclusive of tea and the space. No snacks between the session for the best tea tasting experience.

comfortable tasting space, prior to the event (credit Ty Pip, FB group post)

I've left some Thai text versions in the notice to give a feel for what listening to a language you really don't comprehend is like; sort of a blank space.  I can catch bits, but not so much.  In case you wonder how much 700 baht is I'll save the Google search; just over $20.  I've bought a pot of tea here for about the same, in a cafe I won't name where I'm definitely not a regular, so trying five teas instead is a good value in comparison.

The event started with a glitch on my end when I went to the wrong shared work-space called "the Hive" two elevated train stops down (BTS), due to blindly following a suggestion by typing that name into Google Maps.  It's always about the little details.

Since I won't be going into what Yiwu region teas are like versus others (or certainly not Ding Jia Zhai locale teas within that) I'll cite an interview with a pu'er producer and vendor, William Osmont of Farmerleaf, giving his take on what the different main areas are like (a few of them; it's just a start):


Pu-erh tea features a wide range of tasting profiles. That diversity is due to differences in aging, processing and producing area. Just like the terroirs of wine, tea tastes different according to the genetics, location and management techniques of the tea gardens. It would take a whole book to detail the subtle variations between each mountain and their underlying factors.

Jingmai is famous in the world of tea for its orchid and honey fragrance. Some bitterness is present; astringency is more present than average. In young teas, the mouth feel is generally light and sweet. The Jingmai profile is accessible to the beginners and makes a great introduction to the world of Pu-erh tea because it has a bit of everything. In comparison, Bulang tea is generally more aggressive, featuring more bitterness; Yiwu tea is soft and mellow, with a thick mouth feel. Menkgu is renowned for its complex fragrance and sharp sweetness. 

However, there are many exceptions in each terroirs, and the result in the cup can be very different depending on the processing. 


He's based out of Jing Mai, so a bit biased towards that origin, but all of that should still be reasonable.  These teas should be relatively "soft and mellow, with a thick mouth feel," with plenty of room for variation by version based on all sorts of inputs.

(credit Ty Pip, FB group post)

How it worked out

Of course a lot of the younger versus aged sheng character one would expect to experience was a part of the experience.  Even the younger teas were relatively approachable though, not so astringent or bitter.  I had more problems initially getting into pu'er because there is a tendency for those aspects (tasting too much like taking an aspirin), but not so much across any of those we tried there. 

Yiwu Dingjiazhai 2013 ร้านชาทีดี (Teadezhang), I think this was, some intense tea

The first two teas were a lot stronger in terms of feel, aftertaste, and effect.  People refer to that last part as "qi," a drug-like effect, but I'm never completely sure what the experience is supposed to relate to.  Those two teas hit hard, definitely imparting some type of buzz.  If that continued to escalate it really would've been too much, but it worked out the other way, and later teas seemed to contribute a mellowing effect.

(credit Ty Pip, FB group post)

The other novel experience related to aftertaste, especially for the first two teas.  I've experienced that before,  most in a Golding Kuala Lumpur vendor tea sold as a Jing Mai origin gushu (old tree), here compared with a Farmerleaf version.   One of those first two teas had a pretty strong related effect, and the other was significant, but I've lost track of which was which.  When tasting water between rounds, more or less to cleanse the palate, the water had a comparable level of flavor as the tea, and was a bit sweeter than it, even though it was just plain water.  Cool!  Thaneadopol (Bank; Thais always have a name and a nickname) explained this was the hui gan effect I'd been writing about not so long before.


From there it was interesting noting the way the different storage conditions and ages changed the teas.  Different versions were stored in Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Malaysia, as I remember.  It's tough doing this without notes, but it was nice to be off the clock related to that level of reviewing.  Of course the starting point product also varied, so it wasn't just those factors.  One of the teas in the middle of the cycle had an interesting feel, more in the rear and center of the tongue, extending into the throat.  After that--in later year versions--the flavors kept shifting but the feel aspects seemed to diminish.  I was wondering if I wasn't also burning out a little from all the rounds, if that wasn't coloring perceptions.

It wasn't so much that the later, older teas seemed inferior as that intensity shifted to a softer feel and deeper flavors, and again the teas seemed more relaxing.

The special tea, and conclusions

In the end we tried a Liu Bao from the 60s. That was especially interesting for being on that page lately, for reviewing a number of Liu Bao this year, three of them recently.  It was a bit mellower than the much younger versions I've been trying, and better, really. Somehow I expected more variation yet though; the character was still similar.  A slate - like mineral aspect grounded the flavor and maybe the taste was like betel nut, a flavor element related to the type in some references.  I don't know what that tastes like, so I couldn't say. 

I guess I expected something more unusual out of a very old tea, the oldest I've ever tasted, older than myself, given the description was accurate (as I would expect that it was).  It was mellow, and complex, and the experience had some depth, without much in the way of mustiness.  I'm not sure what I expected to be different; nothing specific.

cool when I'm in the pictures (credit Ty Pip, FB group post)

Was it all what I would have expected, all of the tasting?  The idea of an experience and the experience itself are two different things, and I wouldn't have known what to expect, but I guess beyond that maybe.  It was cool experiencing that much tea, and covering that much related ground in one go, especially related to picking out aging and storage input differences.  I missed lots of the discussion for not being fluent in Thai but they would translate parts, and ask what I thought of teas, or transitions in infusions.

It was hard to frame the experience as liking some better than others.  The most interesting part was experiencing the differences, the whole experience together.  It reminded me of an idea from the movie "Pi," about the name of God being a series of numbers, the knowledge of which drove the main character crazy.  That character said it wasn't about the numbers or the sequence, but there was something more compelling about the spaces in between them.  I liked the experience of variation more than any one of the actual teas.

There's something deeper to that point, it seems, something I was just discussing with someone.  I've liked the pu'er that I've tried (only a few dozen versions, and quite a bit less counting only teas I've owned a good bit of; barely getting started).  But the general context and novelty of the type is more interesting than any one of the teas has been enjoyable in terms of aspects. Strange as it is to quote myself conversing I'll go there, since it's directly to that point:


That may end up being what is so interesting about it to me [pu'er], why trying more types and experiencing teas aging has so much appeal.  At the same time there is the opposing point that the pu'er teas I've tried were fine, easy to appreciate, but not where I am for liking teas, at least not as favorites.  It feels a bit like leading the process to try what I think I will like more in the future, but then I drink lots of types, and the experience of variety is part of it too.  

It's funny to hear people say the same so often about pu'er, about trying to like it, or thinking they should, or taking time to "get it."  For any other tea type they'd tend to just not express that range of ideas, they would just move on.  But variation is an interesting part, not to be discounted.


It's hard to really clarify the sense I meant that in.  I'm not really trying to like pu'er more than I already do, but I naturally do like experiencing different tea types.  The addition of aging and fermentation as a factor makes the type more interesting, beyond that of other tea types in that one sense, because any one tea is no longer just one thing.  Wait a few years and it changes. 

Heavily roasted Wuyi Yancha improves with a year or two of mellowing, but of course that isn't an equivalent.  I compared related 21 year old and 30 year old oolongs but they seem to mostly just get a bit more plumy, or pick up a bit of raisin aspect.  People make claims about white teas improving with aging, and I've been on that page quite a bit this year with compressed versions.  Maybe it's a limiting factor that I've only tried four versions, or that the oldest is only nine years old now, but while those white teas were interesting and pleasant they sort of didn't seem to change so much.  Or so it seems to me, compared to those pu'er.


Beyond all that it was nice finally meeting an online tea friend.  All of those guys were friendly, pleasant to spend some time with, but Bank has been something of a reference to me over some years, passing on advice about types or sources, lots of things.  It was a lot to take in, a great experience on a few different levels.