Southeast Asian tea themed meetup in Honolulu

 

Not long ago I wrote about a variation of this event theme, a tasting meetup.  That picture is really from a meetup in 2023, covered here; I again didn't take a picture this time.  It's funny how similar the tea list was, even though parts were different.

Related to limited attendance to that recent meetup, this time six people showed up.  That's beside my daughter and I hosting, and my wife joining a little to talk about tourism in Thailand (kind of a tangent; she's a registered tour guide there, so it's force of habit).  It was really nice.  Most had limited exposure to tea experience so it was nice going through broad intro and background scope.

One might wonder what the point is of sharing this is.  Bragging about being such a good host, or having access to interesting teas?  It's not that.  To me the point is that it's easy to share tea experience with other people, if you have a few interesting kinds around, even though coordinating with others you don't know is difficult.  That local friend who is an owner of Teas We Like joined again; it was nice having two well-informed tea related perspectives to share (also counting myself as such; it applies, just less so in my case, in some ways).  A meetup would still be fine with less of an educational component.

For people who feel that their own tea selection is too limited to provide much exposure they could open it to others joining to also share what they like.  It would work to frame that as very open and optional, and people would take it as such.

I'll describe what we tried, and some of the reasoning for going with this progression, and how these teas were received.  That last part might be the most functional, related to what would work for a tasting / meetup. 

2024 Thai black tea, close enough to Dian Hong (reviewed here, an earlier version, and this version):  this has been a personal favorite of mine for a long time, which is now one session away from being finished (from a kg or more of it; so sad!).  

It seemed like an approachable and interesting place to start.  Pretty much everyone always "gets" Dian Hong style black tea, since it's flavorful, mild in nature, sweet, a little complex, with decent depth.  It made for a good baseline for comparing other tea type experiences to.  This version was from Aphiwat, described more in relation to the third tea we tried.

I'd planned to start with a kind of low-medium quality range Wuyi Yancha, a Shui Xian, but this tea is better, and it served a similar purpose.  It can work to talk about both the strengths and limitations of teas; that came up a good bit in this tasting.  To me this black / red tea just works, even though it's a bit basic.  Flavor notes are along the line of cacao, dried fruit, and moderate mineral.

2023 Quang Tom Vietnamese oxidized sheng:  this post covers what this tea is, kind of an outlier for style (comparing it to the 2024 version, which is a little more conventional).  

This version is interesting for being a bit cloudy in appearance, usually an indicator of a problematic processing input.  This probably was a case of that; I think it wasn't dried properly after being pressed.  I'm guessing this because I first received this cake, or one like it, in 2003, when it was new, and it was still too damp then.  So I dried it out.  I did so by heating a good bit of salt in a toaster oven, a quarter cup of it, to pull out the moisture, and then placed this cake in a sealed storage container with an open cup of that salt, for a couple of days.  Since I was living in Bangkok re-conditioning the humidity level was automatic.

this should be 2023 left and 2024 right

People liked it.  That cloudiness dissipates within a few rounds, and doesn't seem to throw off flavor much, even though I'm not sure if it's a good idea to not drink a lot of it (I'm on my third or fourth cake now, so if that is an issue I'm just taking the hit).  It tastes a lot like honey, or even beeswax, and is very sweet and mild.  I suppose it's more like a lightly oxidized black tea than a sheng, but not exactly like that either.  And not really like an oolong either, although it might sound like that's what is in the middle.

2023 Thai sheng:  this is from my overall favorite local Thai producer, Aphiwat (reviewed in different posts, including here, but that was the 2024 version, this is the 2023).  He is a member of a local "hill tribe" in the Chiang Mai area (which would be pejorative in US English, but isn't in standard Thai use of English, as a translation of their own wording for something similar).  They work with older plant local material, a wild origin sort of theme, but it isn't presented along with a lot of claims of either, it just is what it is.  

Aphiwat!

We talked through a lot of tea background at that meetup, about plant types, older plant and wild origin material concerns, a bit on processing style, storage conditions and aging input, and local origin character; a lot of the basics.  It wasn't set up as a developed session outline, just plenty of basic discussion.

Even three years old this tea retains a good bit of bitterness and vegetal input, a green wood edge, along with some floral character.  To me it's quite approachable at this point, because I started drinking it brand new three years ago, and it was a bit intense and more challenging then.  Flavor tones have warmed, and it has picked up depth.  We really didn't dig too deeply into how sheng gradually transitions over the years; that's a lot to get into.  But we touched on some main themes, including a little on that.  It's fascinating scope, how teas change, and how storage conditions affect that.

2022 Wawee origin Thai sheng (from Rishi Tea):  this is another pretty good example, just not quite on the same level as the prior tea.  Where that version stays intense and just as pleasant over a full cycle of 10+ rounds this one kind of fades after a half dozen infusions.  That one friend mentioned how age of plants used might tie to this, how younger plant plantation production might be more intense earlier and lose intensity faster, and older or more natural growth material might start a bit subtle and keep picking up intensity, or might transition in aspect range later in rounds.

It was well received.  It's a relatively pleasant tea for those decent first half dozen infusions, and it doesn't have a challenging "youngish" sheng character.  By that I mean that it includes some bitterness and astringency, but not all that much, and warmer tones have just barely started to enter in.  Thai sheng, or other SE Asian versions, can often include fruit flavor, and to me this does.

Fu zhuan hei cha based on white tea, from Oriental Leaf:  this was a big shift, moving on to hei cha (dark tea, another broad category, although some people see pu'er as that, and some don't).  

It's a pretty mild version of one, and the heavy "golden flowers" fungus input gives it that one characteristic taste.  It's based on white tea that is further processed as Fu zhuan, or Fu brick hei cha, which is kind of unusual.

People liked it.  They said it tasted like pumpkin pie, which is a pretty good observation.  It definitely includes warm tones, sweetness, and related spice flavor range, so that's it.  It's really easy to prepare; lots of infusion strength range would have been fine.  None of these teas were really challenging in relation to that, so I didn't need to focus in so much to dial in brewing.

Just to clarify brewing approach a little further I was using a large gaiwan, probably 200+ ml, and brewing and combining two infusions, to brew enough for seven people to try a little each round.  

My wife saw that gaiwan out somewhere in a thrift store and bought it sometime in the last year (in January, or last year?), and this was the first time I used it.  It makes you wonder about potential lead glaze exposure, doesn't it?  Not to worry participants, who may read this; people are right to test teaware for that, and limit exposure, but drinking a few hundred ml brewed from a dodgy gaiwan would still be fine.  It looks like a standard mass-produced version; it's probably fine.  Why mention it then?  Why not overshare, since it is related?

There wasn't much negative feedback to cover, related to what didn't work for people, or what was challenging.  It probably helped that these were all fairly approachable teas.  And if one didn't match preference as much as others it might have been natural for them to not comment on that part, and just take it as it comes.

1980's Bao Zhong:  I'm not sure where I got this tea, maybe in a trade with a friend (I don't think that I ever did review it).  It's an interesting character range, definitely well-aged, but it lacks both depth and complexity.  Storage input wasn't all that musty; it was pretty clean and neutral.

My one more-experienced friend in attendance mentioned that re-roasting during aging, a common practice for offsetting input of humidity over time in oolongs, may have narrowed the distinctiveness of the character range.  Roasting can counter sourness developing from a tea becoming slightly damp, and can change the flavor in a positive way, but it could also transition it in a way that limits its aging potential.  

It was still pleasant, just not all that interesting or pleasant related to any aspect range.  It's interesting being exposed to old tea versions, even when some aren't relatively ideal, in order to place later experiences against that.  

Lessons learned, what might have been different

It was all fine for sharing some basic but interesting teas, and pleasant discussion.  Nothing really went wrong, or seemed like a gap.  

It was especially nice having a "tea expert" join to add depth to the discussion, since that friend is good about linking the ideas to background that relates, without spiraling the input into lots of tangents.  It could actually detract from the limited exposure if one were to fill in too much background, making it seem like a lot of other versions would work better as examples, or de-emphasizing personal experience, which is kind of the main point.  

Any given tea offers whatever experience it does, and people tend to relate to that better after plenty of exposure, in terms of placing it.  But it's still a communication skill to bring that across, at times related to leaving out a lot of what might be said, and limiting input to others to what is most helpful.

It came up in discussion how much these teas cost (which I didn't take contributions for; the purpose was just to share the tea exposure).  It wasn't much, since I bought a lot as local teas back in Thailand and Vietnam, and one was passed on by a vendor, and another was probably part of a tea exchange.

We never did justice to trying ordinary range Yunnan sheng pu'er, of any origin, type, or age.  We just didn't go there.  I had considered adding a version, since it would've worked as a foundation for later experience, but I don't think it would've been easy to relate to (although looking back we did try a nice basic Yiwu three years ago at that other local meetup).  

I mean young sheng, what I tend to drink, which tends to come across as challenging, in the most conventional forms.  I was going to try the one older version I have on hand with them, described in the last post about that earlier meetup, but it's only so-so, and it was more interesting to try a much older oolong version instead.  

There's no need to try to drink the ocean, related to trying as much range as possible in one quick types-survey form meetup; what we got to worked well as an introduction.

I have no pictures of that yard space, but this is a view from the same general area

1990s 8972 (aged sheng pu'er)

I'm reviewing an interesting version of tea passed on by my new tea friend, who I've mentioned in the past two posts, as one of the founders and owners of Teas We Like.  I don't know that this is one of their products, since we didn't discuss that, but it could be, since there's one on their site that matches the little I know about it:

90s CNNP 8972 Naked Brick  (listed for $120)

This is a 90s 8972 brick from CNNP. There is some debate about this recipe, but we believe it is a blend of predominantly sheng with some light fermentation shou. This brick went through traditional HK storage and then spent 20 years in dry Taiwan storage, resulting in a very clean, dark, and satisfying entry with plenty of thickness and bittersweetness. It has a dense, strong Menghai character. It has no wodui aroma or taste, no smoke, and a small amount of traditional storage earthiness in the background. A good casual and comfortable drink with an aged puerh profile.

250g brick, not wrapped.

That pricing seems on the low side, for tea of that age, doesn't it?  But then "a good casual and comfortable drink" sounds on the basic side.  Basic for them might mean something else entirely for more casual tea drinkers.

It's especially interesting that they speculate that it could be a mix of mostly sheng and some shou.  I've heard of such things, but there's a good chance that this is the first time I've tried an example.  I didn't notice that much shou input in trying it, but then roughly 30 year old sheng isn't that familiar a theme to me.  

I could add more about the last 2 in that number code relating to the Menghai Tea Factory, now known as Dayi (or Taetea), but that leads straight into early history of Chinese tea production that I know little about.  Different producers made tea for the main government entity, which already implies more than actually mean.  It's easy to look up more on that background, that would fill in some details.

I wrote these notes before seeing that description, which is how reviews here always go.  I knew what was in the post title.

Review:

#1:  interesting!  I've tried aged sheng before but it has been a long time since I've tried anything similar to this, even though it might be a standard enough form, probably well above average factory tea, favorably stored, and around 30 years old.  

It's clean at the start.  In some past cases--of trying older sheng, even some from the 80s--there was a heavier fermentation input flavor range to get past, which took a couple of infusions, but this might just include a little more char effect than it's going to after another round or two.  What I take to be what people describe as betel nut comes across in a strong form right away (although to be clear I never get around to trying that, even though it's out there in Bangkok's Chinatown).  Feel is especially nice too, rich and smooth, a bit velvety.  Aftertaste is pronounced, although that will probably pick up further, leaving behind that heavy mineral, unusual herb, and the touch of char.

I could keep going; someone could free associate another more flavors or experiential aspects, just from this first infusion.  That's really something.  It leans a little toward a dried fruit that I'm not making out.  Warmer and heavier tone could seem a little like an aged tree bark, maybe pine bark, but it doesn't include the sharpness of pine needle.  The mineral range is interesting, but it's easy to get stuck on that tasting like some kind of rock.  I'm not getting much ginseng or medicinal herb yet, but those would fill in a lot of the rest of the typical flavor range of aged pu'er, or I guess camphor also might be added to that.  

It was an interesting first round.  This will "clean up" over another round or two, and the minimal mustiness and char will probably drop out completely, even though it wasn't pronounced.  

#2:  creaminess picks up; that's pleasant.  The early char is transitioning nicely to include a heavy and warm bark spice.  It's always hard describing what the rest of bark spice range is, or root spice, for that matter, beyond cinnamon (and ginseng).  I drank a broad range of tisanes over a decade or so before getting into tea, but didn't keep track.

I think I'll limit the free association of possible flavor connections this round.  It's nice just experiencing the tea.  

Maybe I am already "feeling" this?  I'm internally inconsistent, making it harder to judge that kind of thing.  I don't sleep so regularly, and often get really intense exercise inputs in long runs, so my body works through a lot of natural variation.  Some really pleasant ocean swimming and getting extra sleep has been balancing me better than usual lately.  

It does seem to impart a calm, clear energy, even though I don't notice or value that about teas much.  I'm on a balcony on a sunny, breezy, perfect temperature day, sitting beside rustling palm trees, so maybe some of that effect would happen without tea.

#3:  even using moderate proportion (for me, or really just normal range, about 5 grams in 100 ml gaiwan) this is fairly intense.  4 grams would've been fine.  As I've covered at length here I don't weigh tea, but from trying countless samples of different sizes I feel like standard amount / weight baselines are familiar.

Depth increases this round.  It had significant depth before, but now it's more.  Where it gave a full, rich feel in the mouth before now it's coating those surfaces.  There's aftertaste, and the feel itself also carries over.  It's interesting.  People talk about feel residing in different places in your throat or mouth, which I've also not learned to value.  This contributes a substantial feel across your mouth, not so much centered in the back of the throat, but across the tongue, roof, and front in a unique way.  I'm not sure if that's a good thing, but it is interesting.

What I take to be betel nut is still quite pronounced, and there is warm bark spice, or aged tree bark, and lots of warm mineral.  But I'm missing something, or maybe a couple of things.  An effect related to root spice seems to join that.  Sweetness is a little like dried fruit, but not in a familiar range, and I get around to trying a lot of dried fruit.  It feels relatively rich and full.  

There's a strange effect that happens here--when I'm in Honolulu--that the more calm, focused, and present I am the more I hear birds.  They're always there; we live right beside a giant park.  But I usually don't hear them.  On a walk to swim I relax and become more present, and they sound loud, there are so many.  There are a few saying different things just now.  I'm not claiming that this tea experience is connecting me to the universe, or anything such, since just relaxing for an hour could help with that, but the energy feels good.

#4:  I had my wife taste this tea and she said that she doesn't like it, that it tastes like mold.  That's a nice counterpoint.  It can be interpreted as tasting like those half-circle shape fungus disks on fallen tree trunks tend to smell like.  It probably helps more than I'm noticing that I've tried much murkier aged sheng before, so to me this tastes clean, light, and pleasant, but still nicely complex, with nice depth.  As my friend mentioned lots of old tea, old sheng or other range, tends to taste like pond water (or was that swamp water?).

I think that people open to this general range would like this, but it's the next consideration whether acquiring a preference for range like this is a natural outcome, or if just an inter-subjective group norm, because others in "tea circles" tend to like it.  Across a range of forms aged sheng is still an odd flavor range, from any normal perspective.  I think it makes sense to dismiss the two extremes, and then consider why falling in the middle, towards either side, seems more natural.  "That tastes like mold" is the one extreme; the other is the developed, refined, "advanced" range of aspects and experiential states.  Including positive or negative judgmental descriptions kind of assumes the conclusion.

A small green gecko joins me; I just saw a baby gecko right here a few days ago, which oddly never comes up.  In both Thailand and in Hawaii people love geckos.  Partly because they eat insects, even inside the house, but it may relate to a connection to nature that's different than in mainland perspective.  The birds are your neighbors, and although competing with the squirrels for mangos back in Bangkok can seem off-putting it's their home too, so they should get some.  They eat most of them; they cheat and don't wait until they are ripe.

About preference development, an interesting case came up in discussing Japanese interpretations of Scotch whiskey.  That's a learned preference, that can surely be complex and refined, with a literal strong form of poison as the base of the experience, that almost no one would like without conditioning to like it.  Within the range of whiskey experience much better aged versions probably would seem incredibly smooth, complex, and approachable, but surely to the average person without that acclimation it would just be less bad.  

I think aged sheng is a different kind of thing, and people could appreciate it and like it without conditioning, but maybe not as much as basic Tie Guan Yin or Dian Hong.  I have trouble fully placing what that means.

#5:  I tend to lose focus and interest on writing long before a full infusion cycle.  Sure, teas keep changing, and brew plenty of rounds.  But I only need to describe the general effect of the experience, not every last detail.  I'm already stretching infusion times, out to 20 seconds or so, and this will relate to going longer as rounds continue.

It's not developing, not heading in new directions for aspects, related to flavor, aftertaste, or feel.  It's not really fading fast either, but I suppose intensity is decreasing.

Related to really pinning down a flavors list I've probably missed something along the line of heavy mineral, bark spice, or root spice.  The feel was more interesting, and the overall clean nature (even though per that one secondary input it tastes like mold).  

This tea must have been pretty intense originally to retain this degree of intensity, complexity, and depth across the last 30 years.  Storage conditions must have been a lot less humid than I'm familiar with in Bangkok, since teas can pick up a heavier musty flavor range within a decade and a half or so.  It seems relatively fully fermentation transitioned, which brings to mind whether that not happening in drier storage could still be possible over 30 or so years.  Probably it could.

All in all a very interesting and pleasant experience.  Pushing the next round a little more (#6) it does transition, but in the ways you'd expect, the light wood and spice note develop.  Spice a little like clove is picking up, just not exactly that.  It's as pleasant as it has been, very clean in effect, maybe slightly thinner in feel, but with good depth, and nice mineral range expression.

Rishi Wawee Thai sheng (2022) and Phousan Laos sheng (2021)

Thai version right, in all photos (this is the third round)

 

I've been meaning to try Rishi sheng versions from South East Asia for awhile, and finally got around to ordering two.  Whether or not someone calls them pu'er doesn't matter to me; that are that type, regardless of a Chinese regional designation for that name.  Per my understanding the type was produced in lots of places long before Chinese people adopted that village name for it.  They are these:

Doi Wawee Sheng Pu'er Vintage Spring 2022 ($45 for a 200 gram cake)

The Doi Wawee Pu’er cakes we source are part of the incredible history of tea in Thailand. Throughout northern Thailand there are many old, abandoned tea plantations that have been left to grow wild from centuries past. Known locally by the Thais as “Assam tea,” these trees are part of an ancient tea journey that traces its roots back to the 11th and 12th Centuries...

This 2022 Doi Wawee sheng Pu’er has a wonderful balance of density, power and elegance. The floral and aromatic wood notes are present over the course of the several infusions. For being such a young cake the tea is very smooth and lasting in sweetness. The powerful energy and awakening vibes of Doi Wawee’s ancient tea is incredible.

The history of tea in lots of places has been lost, but the earlier existence of the plants can be confirmed, especially since some can live a long time, so it's a living history.  I don't remember what I've heard about time-frames, but the history of Thailand importing ceramics production from China goes back a long time, for centuries, so tea was probably around too.

Laos Sheng Pu’er Tea Cake Vintage 2021 ($48 for a 250 gram cake)

Our 2021 round cake pressing of the first picked, early spring tea is lively and energetic with luscious wildflower honey, ripe fruit and piney aromas. The Xiengkhoung region of Laos is demonstrating its consistent performance as one of our favorite origins for Pu'er tea. The tea has a long-lasting impact on the palate with a mouthwatering sweetness and deeply refreshing quality. The delicate floral aromas give way to an emerging pungency, stimulating strength and minerality that builds up in the subsequent brews. The tea is pressed a bit hard, so it comes out slowly and elegantly over the course of many infusions...

It is pressed really hard; that will probably slow aging transition.  They mention positive cha qi (feel) in that description too, but I tend to not notice that, unless it's very pronounced.  They mention a little more on local growing areas in the website, about elevation, and include harvest timing; the whole story of both is on the site pages.

South East Asian sheng has been my overall favorite type for a long time.  Thai versions can be very nice, distinctive and pleasant.  Laos versions tend to be less consistent, but in the best cases they're very positive too.  Vietnamese sheng seems to often stray further from Yunnan production style, to include some extra oxidation, or maybe the kill-green step is sometimes different, leading to slightly different results.  I've had exceptional versions from Myanmar, and they might be a little more consistent in general, and as true to type related to Yunnan versions as any of the others.

Review:

Wawee #1:  pretty nice.  A bit of pine comes across early on, and some sort of stone fruit note, close enough to plum, but that interpretation could vary, and it will probably evolve.  It's clean, intense, and balanced, and not at all light in relation to this being the first round.  Bitterness is significant, but also moderate, which is what I would have expected.  

Maybe flavor tones have deepened and warmed since production, since this is a 2022, but I can only guess.  I've tried a reasonable amount of other Thai sheng and this compares well, and is similar in character.  But then it's too early for that level of judgment.

Phousan Laos:  an intense more vegetal note hits right away; I'll need to brew this fast to optimize results around that.  It's in between green wood and mushroom, but warmed and softened a bit, so maybe that's partly cured wood and dried mushroom.  It's missing the fruit range in the other tea.  

One could interpret some of the vegetal range as pine but it seems to represent wood more.  This might evolve towards incense spice, if the less pleasant vegetal range diminishes, based on what it tastes like now.  At least at this level it doesn't really compare favorably to the Thai version at all.  It lacks the same sweetness and cleanness, with flavors that aren't nearly as positive.  You can't really judge sheng by the first round though; they will often develop a bit between the first and third infusion, and continue changing after that.

Wawee #2:  bitterness and vegetal range picked up a lot, which is to be expected.  

I overdo it with proportion, as a matter of habit, generally always using about 8 grams per 100 ml gaiwan.  Since that's my norm I tend to just go with it.  You can use faster infusions and get similar results related to using a more conventional proportion, but they might be more optimum using 5, so you can adjust timing better.  

I was just talking about that with that Teas We Like founder I just met at the last meetup (described in the last post), and I can't really justify the practice of using a high proportion as somehow better.  It's just how my tea brewing evolved.  It's a good way to drink a dozen rounds of tea on the intense side, and I'm drinking for beverage experience more often than tasting, even though I do both, and approach for the two mixed.  If intensity is too high for a round, which can happen, you can just flash infuse the next round and mix them, although I don't do that during review tasting sessions.

The depth is nice.  Astringency / feel filled in, and it's substantial, and bitterness falls into a different balance.  The sweetness and complex flavor range makes it pleasant.  Some aftertaste expression carries over; it's definitely not thin, or limited in any way.  The fruit note is especially pleasant.  Pine isn't really prominent; probably that's something you would either notice in that first infusion or else not get.  I can't say the more vegetal range tastes like wood, but it's hard to place it otherwise.  I would guess this will evolve towards spice some, which is also a best case for the Laos version.

Phousan:  wood is still the dominant flavor.  At least the mushroom edge to that has evolved away already.  There is a more positive spice range entering in; this is improving fast.  That main wood flavor is a well-cured hardwood, with a touch of greener wood range beyond that.  The vegetal scope isn't all that green, so the spice seems to tie in with that.  It could be interpreted as medicinal herb, or even along the line of some type of basil (maybe tulsi / holy basil).  It's starting to work better; I think the third infusion will determine how the rest will go.

I didn't include it in the tasting theme post but we also discussed the use of comparison tasting, that tea vendor / expert and I.  He said that it's a good tool for a beginner to use to notice differences that would be harder to place otherwise, which would help with sorting out tea evaluation in general.  Of course that's part of what I'm doing, and what I started using it for.  It has evolved to where I'm mostly trying two or more teas, but usually two, to get to more versions with less tasting and writing time.  I might do 80 or 90 reviews in a year, and write about well over 100 teas, maybe 150, so I would be writing even more posts to try them one at a time.  I guess it's down to 70-some posts in total and maybe 60 reviews now, but it works out the same.

It may not seem it but writing one detailed review a week is a lot.  It takes more than an hour to write the notes, or maybe two, and another hour to edit photos and text, and add reference citation.  It's not the time that's a concern though, it's the focus required.  You have to use the time that you are most dialed in, rested, and relaxed, or it won't work.

Wawee #3:  overall balance is improving, the way those aspects already described come together.  This isn't really a fair comparison because Thai sheng is among my personal favorites, with lots of what I've tried from the Wawee area.  I've tried a good bit of Laos sheng too, and some was great, but only the Farmerleaf version I mentioned in the last meetup theme post stands out as on the same level as other better versions from elsewhere.  That's in recent memory; I was drinking a good bit of Laos sheng 5 to 10 years ago, and a couple of versions back then were probably pretty exceptional, but more weren't.

I should get around to describing Thai and Laos sheng in relation to Yunnan versions, in terms of style (typical style--both vary a lot), typical quality level, and terroir input.  It's just so much to get to, and every point would involve a troublesome spiral in describing exceptions and normal range of variation.  Maybe I won't.

Phousan:  clearly the best this has been, right on schedule.  Green and cured wood is giving way to more spice range.  It's not just a touch of basil now, something along the line of celery seed is prominent.  I've been using dill seed from our garden as a food spice; it's not too far from that, but probably still closer to celery.  It's more pleasant than this description makes it sound, like some sort of basil and seed spice tisane, with a bit of wood.  Let's free-form associate what makes it more positive, as a flavor list description.

The wood tone I've been describing moving into incense spice range is part of it.  Sandalwood, maybe?  I really should revisit that incense scent theme again somehow.  I have no idea how agar wood would vary, and I've even lost track of what patchouli smells like, which would be a slap in the face for one former Deadhead roommate, and lifetime best friend, who always smelled like that.  Sweetness also picks up; that helps the flavors tie together.  Limited bitterness, which I tend to not mention much, if it's a normal low-background input, probably also helps in this case.  Feel is fine; it has fullness and structure, it just doesn't stand out, so again I see it as normal background context.  I'll revisit this next round, as it continues to evolve.

Wawee #4:  this is where I might start hitting a wall for drinking a lot of tea, and the next round is usually where I tap out.  If I'd been more practical and used 5 gram proportion I could brew these even lighter, and get to a 6th (a dozen in total).  I might mention that I'm re-warming water to keep this brewing using very close to boiling point temperature, not dropped much between that boil and the next infusion, in this case under a minute of cooling.

There's a pleasant sappy feel to this that works well with the rest.  It connects with a positive aftertaste expression.  Flavors have evolved, and I've not kept up with describing that.  I interpret a main pleasant input as fruit, but others might not, and that could even sound wrong to some.  There's a good bit of range, so that it could work best to describe general range scope and then individual flavor inputs.  Stone fruit is on the list, but vegetal range is more pronounced.  Or that really overlaps or mixes with a spice theme, again probably mild incense spice, which more often occurs in a very different overall flavor context.  Bitterness stands out, of course.  Sweetness might include a bit of toffee edge, but that's not easy to pick up, given the stronger vegetal and spice range.  Interpreting more of it as green wood could also work.

Phousan:  spice still stands out, incense spice (mostly), along with seed spice and a touch of basil.  Those warm tones and sweetness are pleasant.  Mushroom and wood have generally dropped out, although someone could still interpret the one part as cured wood, but I see it as having evolved more to incense spice range.

It's hard to guess about how these have evolved over 4 to 5 years, but since I've drank a lot of comparable sheng I could attempt that.  Earlier on they would've been brighter in tone, and even more intense.  Probably some of the early floral range has evolved to what I'm describing now.  It's odd getting to round 4 and never mentioning a floral aspect, but that is a natural transition pattern.  The teas tend to be more approachable in terms of bitterness and astringency evolving; these aren't challenging.  Depth increases, which is kind of an emergent property, not closely tied to just one or more main aspects.

Whether or not they're better--now versus when newer--would depend on preference.  That's if someone is averse to that early bitterness and astringency, or they see it as positive, when coupled with sweetness and bright floral range.  These warm wood and spice tones would have resembled green wood, or other vegetal scope, often sort of like plant stem, and some could find that challenging.  I might prefer a stronger astringency and vegetal edge trade-off when younger, since it couples with freshness and more floral range, typically.

I really don't care for the grassiness in some green teas, but sheng tends to be vegetal in a different way, more along the line of either green wood or edgier fresh herbs, like some other types of greens.  Warmer medicinal spice notes evolve more later, after aging.  Those are often along the line of ginseng, and these will continue in that direction, but change-over will take time.  I don't think these were stored in overly wet / humid and warm conditions, but they're not as preserved as dry storage causes either.  In the middle is good for storage conditions input, letting them evolve kind of slowly, but to keep changing.

Wawee and Phousan #5:  not so different than last round, so this might be a good place to keep this short, and add more final thoughts on a next round.  The Laos version is picking up more sweetness and a touch of fruit, maybe along the line of dried mango; that will probably evolve to be more noticeable, given the transition direction.

Wawee #6:  I'm still using relatively fast infusion times, 10 seconds or so, and that finally relates to intensity dropping.  The tea isn't fading already, but the early infusion strength is reduced.  This is probably an easier intensity level to evaluate, but that kind of thing does shift which aspects you experience.

Everything is integrating more, so it's harder to break it all into a flavor list.  It's the same range as before, but less distinct.  There isn't enough shift in relative balance of aspects to make it worth unpacking that.  

One thing I haven't mentioned:  these leaves vary in color.  That's surely related to them being heated a bit much in some rounds of kill-green (sha qing) processing.  It's complicated how that might work out, or probably did.  A touch of extra roast can add a positive flavor input, according to discussion of this very point by William of Farmerleaf (covered in this post on "oolong pu'er,").  It might add complexity, using a slight range of processed material.  Then it's harder to say how that would work out related to aging potential or tea character changing across rounds of infusion, since--per my understanding--oxidation and roast input both trade out flavor change but slightly limit tea's durability, how many positive rounds it will brew.

Phousan:  the best this has been; it kept evolving positively over the rounds.  It's interesting how the Thai version was so much more positive early on, and now this seems more distinctive, and complex in a different way.  Fruit even evolves, which I guess we can call dried mango, even though it could be closer to dried longan, or something else.  This tea is better than the Thai version at this stage; so odd.  The earlier spice notes are still present, transformed in how they come across, and now supporting tones instead.  Apparent sweetness seems higher, maybe related to how we naturally associate some flavor range as sweet, more than tied to how some compounds cause that effect.

For really preferring dried fruit themes in sheng this is interesting, seeing how other range can fulfill a different but related function, even though this finally does express some fruit as well.  It's interesting how this evolved to be cleaner, fuller, and better balanced, while the other version became less distinct.  I suppose that might mean more to someone else.  I'll brew both on the stronger side, giving them over 20 seconds to infuse, and pass on final thoughts on that.  Seven rounds of two versions is an awful lot of tea; it will be plenty.  I drank water and ate some nuts prior to this round, and took time with this process, which helps with extending it.

Wawee #7:  this heavier infusion strength works well with the tea character at this point.  That sappy feel returns, and a toffee note stands out again.  Incense spice range, alternatively interpreted as cured hardwood, picks back up.  In between the light last round and this more intense form would still be fine, probably a more natural optimum.

Phousan:  ordinarily I wouldn't like a tea with this aspect set description this much (incense spice, seed spice, basil, with a bit of dried fruit).  It all balances well, supported by a positive feel, a nice level of bitterness, and good aftertaste expression.  I suppose it's even possible that this has better aging potential than the Thai tea, even though that aspect set is more familiar to me, and more a match to my evolved preference.  

If I bought just one of these of course it would be the Wawee tea, related in part to my bias for Thai sheng.

Conclusions / other consideration range:

It's hard to evaluate long term aging potential.  Would be these be great in another 10 to 15 years?  As a young sheng drinker I tend to see the transition optimum within the first 3 to 5 years as a good place to drink the teas, if that works well.  Some are best within the first 6 months, and others better 2 or 3 years, only changed some.  Often it's early challenging nature that indicates a related tea's best form will occur 2 or 3 decades later.

I've tried more old Thai sheng that is kind of ok but not great in the 15 to 20 year old range, and probably only a couple that were older (but I do lose track).  These may be like that, destined to still be fine later on, but not exceptional.  Someone would really have to hold onto one to know.

What about value?  This Thai tea is $45 for 200 grams, with the Laos version nearly $48 for 250, so they might be around $80 cakes at a 357 gram standard size.  That's not bad, for what they are, sort of a Western industry norm.  If anything lots of vendors might place the same range at just over $100, especially for valuing limited aging input as a positive, and a cost on the vendor's side.  Of course buying tea within Thailand or Laos you might do better, for equivalent teas.  I've seen vendors play up an old plant source theme and pass off similar teas for a lot more, but that's normal, that's just how pu'er sales often go.

So as I interpret it these are good value, but also just normal in relation to Yunnan range, pretty much at the standard level.  If you interpret the origin novelty as positive, and value the limited aging input then value is great.  There's not a lot available in this price range, to be better or worse.  If you think SE Asian sheng should be priced lower than standard Yunnan range, as definitely occurred over the last decade, then value might not be good.

Over and over again we see gradually increasing product quality, distinctiveness, and desirability pairing with rising product costs.  It would be hard to find examples this good 10 years ago, or maybe even 5, so it's not comparing apples to apples to reference past options.  The same happens with Viet Sun's Vietnamese sheng; their pricing is much higher than it was just a few years ago, but the teas are better.  Yunnan Sourcing's Impression series started out as blends competing with Dayi 7542, at that cost level too, $30-some to $40 per full sized cake, and now they're mostly all in the general $100 range, but again it's better tea.  The days of buying a full sized $40 cake are over, unless you switch back to factory teas, which are more comparable to the older range from South East Asia.  The form is different; factory teas were often mass-produced blends, but the flaws in older off-area teas made the quality level comparable.

People who drank sheng 10 to 15 years ago are familiar with another earlier form that fills in how things worked then, the white paper wrapped higher quality range, generally custom pressings.  Those would often cost up towards $1 a gram, and came with descriptions that would be familiar today, related to narrow origin sources, and probably even old plant input (gushu).  That probably less often related to wild origin material.  We've done well to experience some of that form transitioning to quite good $100 to $140 standard cake offerings, as that became a more mainstream form, now selling for much less.  Maybe not if it's still gushu, but those claims are hard to evaluate now, as then.  This runs too long to dwell on that tangent, but I do associate a range of character as relating to old plant input, to a mineral base effect being different, with greater general depth, perhaps associating with more aging potential.

the Wawee tea plants (credit Rishi site)

All in all these were pretty good.  The former Wawee material versions I've tried set a pretty high bar to match, and the Thai version was in line with that.  It was interesting how the Laos tea evolved through rounds better, after a less favorable start.  Both are pretty good examples of SE Asian sheng range, and both are a pretty good value, for what they are, and where other options stand.

Where else can you get South East Asian sheng, that are as good as these?  Tea Side sells Thai versions, but their pricing is high, so although quality is good value often isn't.  Chawang Shop sometimes sells versions, but I don't think the quality of any stood out, maybe not quite on these tea's level, even though these are just good, but not necessarily great.  That one Farmerleaf Laos tea is better, but it's priced at $140, for a 357 gram cake, costing a lot more.  

Rishi holds up as a good source option.