Chang Kham Thai wild origin Assamica black tea

 

I'm reviewing another tea from Chang Kham, sent by that business owner for review (many thanks).  He is the family member of the Sen Xing Fa Bangkok Chinatown shop that I have met a number of times over the years, who now runs a shop and outlet by that name up in Chiang Mai (located here).

I just noticed in editing this it was from 2025, so a year old now.  A tea like this probably improves slightly over the first half a year or so, as it settles, and is all the better now.  It probably won't change that much with aging over the next year or two, maybe just fading slightly, but not even all that much of that, if well stored.  

All that is guesswork; I don't mean to imply the level of confidence in that conclusion that it implies.  The main point is that there's not much concern that it wouldn't be as good related to being a year old.  Maybe it's not really better, but it wouldn't just lose intensity or freshness, like a green tea.

A description from their website:

That tea costs 1500 baht for 100 grams ($45), listed on their website.  Is that a good value?

Not really, by Thai local standards, but then there isn't that much tea of this quality level around.  It would be hard to place this against any other Thai version to use as a market price, so I'm really comparing against teas from China.  I can check on one though, since Tea Side is a Western facing outlet that carries exceptions related to what is produced:

2025 Old Trees Organic Black Tea N3, Loose Leaf  ($19 for 100 grams)

Loose black tea from 100-300-year-old trees, the highest quality material.

This is a classic black tea from trees. It is well-fermented and possesses an invigorating strong taste with many semitones and a rich aroma. The taste profile: tea rose, tulips, dried fruits, a little caramel.

Suitable for both, utilitarian consumption with sweets and for the thoughtful tea ceremony. 

The teas are probably fairly similar, but I might like the Tea Side version a little more, since their teas tend to match a Dian Hong style (from what I've tried in the past; it's a guess, related to this tea), and this was one flavor aspect removed from that standard profile (so still pretty close).  

So $45 is a bit much.  You always pay more for teas sold in brick and mortar shops, than in purely online outlets, as a rule, which is somewhat fair.  Their overhead is a lot higher, and they offer you the benefit of trying teas before you buy them (usually; that varies by store).  Also $19 is a pretty good price for what I expect that other Thai tea to be; 20-some would still be ok.

It seems strange blaming a vendor for value when they send a tea for review (many thanks for that!), but I don't intend this that way.  These kinds of really rare teas vendors would source at different pricing, and their marketing and final pricing is up to them.  

It's quite possible that you couldn't find a close equivalent to either of these teas anywhere else.  The supply chains aren't anything like standard farm production, so I'm not clear on what factors go into costs.  And it's possible that the Chang Kham tea is much better than the Tea Side version; only someone who has tried both would know.

Review:

first infusion:  this is good.  The style is distinctive, in a way that's familiar if you try enough versions of black tea; hopefully that comes across in description.  It tastes malty, but not quite as dry and mineral intensive as Assam versions (from that area in India).  It's not exactly like a malted milk ball or milkshake malt, but sort of right in between the two.

Beyond that another flavor included is cacao.  There's a bit of fruit as well, more or less along the line of dried dark cherry.  It's a nice mix.  Feel is rich, even though this is really just getting started.  It even expresses some aftertaste effect, while still starting out.  Through it all that one cacao note stands out, which is a pleasant aspect to bring the rest into a nice balance.

Because this tea lacks a lot of astringency you could brew it as intense as you want, and it would be fine.  The way these flavors are combining, with pleasant intensity, it would be as well to keep infusion strength on the light-medium side, because it will all probably come across well that way.

second infusion:  similar to the first round, but a little stronger.  There is a slight sour note to this, a bit like aged cardboard, that some people could find off-putting, and then for others it would just link to a separate mineral range that works well.  Early in my tea exploration I kept trying versions that went by the name / type Golden Monkey, and they were a bit like that.  Let's check what that might be, from Wikipedia:

Golden Monkey tea (Chinese: 金猴茶; pinyin: jīn hóu chá) is a black tea originating from the Fujian and Yunnan provinces in China. Only the bud and first leaf are picked, and the tea leaves are characterized by the pale gold threading. Golden Monkey tea is a black tea counterpart of Silver Needle white tea. The flavor profile of golden monkey tea is characterized by light, honeyed peach notes, and its lack of astringency. The name "Golden Monkey" can be used for many black teas.

...Despite the fact that tea has been grown in Yunnan for 1700 years, Golden Monkey is a relatively new tea, about 300 years old.[5] It has only been produced for export in the last 13–18 years.

This is a review of a local Thai version from 2014, almost dating back to that range.  I would describe teas differently now, but it sounds at least comparable.

That post describes a taste as resembling cantaloupe, and that might apply to this.  Or one part is definitely like sun-dried tomato, that sweet and savory flavor.  Cacao is still present, but not as the dominant flavor.  Warm mineral picks up, perhaps related to this being brewed a little stronger, or it just evolving across rounds.  All in all it's pretty good.  Again flavor preference in relation to that one flavor aspect is what would determine a take on this tea, if it seems off, or if that's regarded as pleasant, the one balsa wood sort of flavor.  I like it.

third infusion:  not really changing much.  It might pick up a little depth, and coat my mouth a little differently, feeling a little different.  

It's interesting to compare and contrast this with typical Dian Hong range, an overall personal favorite.  That malt note wouldn't be similar; Yunnan versions aren't generally like that.  I guess if they are a Golden Monkey type maybe it could be more common?  I wouldn't know.  Some cacao and range not completely unlike roasted yam is common.  I've not been describing this as like roasted yam, but it's similar, and that's one possible interpretation.  It probably works better for this third round than it had before, so it is probably changing a little.  The way the set of aspects comes across is similar though, even though it all may be shifting slightly.

The feel is nice, but it's hard to describe how or why.  It's rich, and a bit heavy, but quite smooth.  Maybe one might say that it's velvety.  As quality level goes this tea is fine; it's good.  It's more a matter of how it matches or misses related to personal preference for flavors.

I'll brew one more round a bit stronger, and this tea won't be finished, but that should be enough description.  Sometimes late rounds can be just as positive as earlier ones, or teas can thin in ways that aren't as positive, but to me that's usually not a main story of how the tea is.  It's interesting trying tea that is this approachable, in the mild and flavorful black tea range, but then I just did review a couple in relation to buying one from Viet Sun, and them sending a sample.  They weren't completely different than this.

fourth infusion:  that malt note is the strongest it has been, probably in part related to brewing this a little longer, and related to it evolving that way.  For people who have tried a few similar versions of Golden Monkey all of this should be ringing a bell.  As I remember those may not have matched this for some of the minor aspect range that shows a tea's quality, for flavor intensity and complexity, overall positive character, rich feel, and aftertaste trailing over, adding depth to the experience.  

That one balsa wood sort of note was at the center of those experiences too, if I remember right.  I wonder what that's from, if a processing form input causes that, or it's somehow related to using common tea material to start.

Conclusions:

When these kinds of black teas really work for you it's pleasant to drink a kilogram or two of them, to make it a part of a routine rotation.  I wouldn't mind having about 250 grams of this, but I wouldn't want to drink it every week for the next year.  That one malt and balsa wood note isn't something I'd want to repeat experiencing 100 times (although 30 or 40 might be ok).  

But then it's funny how all of that is completely subjective taste dependent.  I'm touchy about a black tea being tart, at all, but if a version has depth I don't mind if flavor intensity is on the low side.  Cacao, roasted sweet potato, and roasted yam are personal favorites for flavor inclusions (so this does cover quite a bit of that too), referring back to the earlier comment about liking the main Dian Hong style best.

It's a good tea version.  It's definitely worth trying this style, to see what you make of it.  I think almost anyone would like this tea, so I'm really focusing on how for some people it might be a personal favorite and for others it wouldn't.

On a completely different subject, Keoni and I checked out a really local shopping center in the Victory Monument area this past week to get a pizza (strange it related to that food choice).  I love those older places; it feels like we're out of town.

Viet Sun Y Ty air dried 2026 black tea and Wawee Tea 2026 black

 

Viet Sun T Ty black on the left, in all photos

Continuing on with Vietnamese and Thai themes I've been covering, this time it's about Viet Sun and Wawee Tea black teas.  These two versions were really exceptional.  I mean so good.  Enough with the spoilers; I'll cite some product details from their sites (or for Wawee, I'll try to turn up a Facebook page post info), and get to the review.

Y Tý Air Dried Black Spring 2026  ($21 for 100 grams, $47.50 for 250)

A really nice black tea made in the hot air dried style from one of our favorite tea areas, Y Tý.

Made from medium, old and ancient trees in the Dao village, this tea brews up into a rich copper red soup. Floral, sweet, with a malty chocolate, honey character and a low-medium roast. Rich mouthfeel and long finish.

Season: April 2026

Picking Standard: 1 bud, 2-3 leaves

Region: Y Tý, Lào Cai

Elevation: 1300-1800mn

Would that really have a low-medium roast input, versus just a moderate amount of oxidation?  It doesn't matter.  I probably should have read between the lines and ordered that instead of the sun-dried version that I just reviewed.  It is really nice.  The other might change for the better, given that style, but this one might still gain some depth, and it's really nice now.

Related to value around 21 cents a gram is pretty fair as pricing goes now.  Awhile back you could buy pretty decent Dian Hong for 15 cents a gram or less, but I would imagine that has shifted, as all tea pricing has.  You would be lucky to buy tea this good at whatever price it is.

There is no information post on the Wawee Tea Facebook page, as there had been for the sheng version.  It's Thai material black tea; that's all that you need to know.  I'm describing it as being made in a style similar to Yunnan Dian Hong, but that kind of judgement doesn't add much.  That generaliztion comes across differently in relation to this other Vietnamese version being a dead ringer for Dian Hong character, and flavor aspect range.

I can share their FB page cake wrapper, since it seems I forgot to take a picture of that:

That pricing relates to about $30 for 200 grams, so $15 for 100 grams instead of 21 for the Viet Sun version.  But that's Thai pricing; Viet Sun is a Western facing vendor instead.  As with the Viet Sun whether you buy the tea for 15 or 21 cents a gram you are still lucky if the tea is this good.  There are plenty of vendors out there selling teas nowhere near this good for 50 to 70 cents a gram, either making up stories to back that, or maybe some interesting stories are real, but the tea still isn't this nice.

Review:

Viet Sun Y Ty:  this is really more what I have in mind related to Dian Hong style teas, than the sun dried version I just had.  But then those pick up intensity with age, and tend to be oxidized a little less initially, so it's not fair comparing two brand new versions.  This is still really nice.

A pleasant roasted sweet potato note stands out, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to interpret the rest as tasting like cacao, but that's a judgement call.  Sweetness is good, and feel is fine, even though it's barely getting started.  It's going to be hard for the Thai version to compare well to this.

Wawee Tea black:  this is holding its own, so far.  It's completely different.  Tones are much warmer, and flavor complexity is harder to unpack; it's not just a couple of very pleasant main notes.  Dark cherry is part of it, and something like a cured wood or incense spice tone.  Often when I'm mentioning that it's about a limitation in the flavor set, but it works well in this.  It has a lot of depth, especially for just getting started.  Maybe some of the other range is spice oriented, even towards root spice or medicinal spice.  A warm mineral base is pleasant.

If judging at this stage which I like better, which is still too early to call, I'd have to go with the first version.  That standard, pleasant, well-balanced Dian Hong style is a personal favorite.  But the Thai version expresses more depth and complexity, so far, and everything it expresses is pleasant.  This should be a great comparison tasting.

I've got the proportion wrong, including less of the loose Vietnamese version, because it's hard to judge when one is loose and the other compressed.  I'll add a touch more, which will throw off how the transition cycle plays out over the next round or two.  I usually work around that by adding what looks normal to me, and it always veers back to 8 grams or so, but I tried to back off the proportion of the first, and didn't do so in the same way for the second.

VS Y Ty #2:  roasted sweet potato and cacao stand out again.  Or maybe that's yam instead, or maybe it's transitioning from sweet potato to yam.  You get the idea.  Mineral depth is pleasant; that really gives it balance.  A somewhat high sweetness level also works well with the rest.  Feel is nice, with decent fullness.  It's not dry but it also doesn't lack some feel structure.  A warmer and heavier flavor edge tastes like a touch of coffee, which mixes with the mineral range, and supports the rest.  It's really good.

Wawee:  it changed quite a bit; I would've expected that.  It's picking up a brandy-like flavor input, which is more or less the dominant flavor already.  Another part tastes like a bark spice, just not cinnamon.  Warmer mineral gives those pronounced flavors balance.  There is still fruit, more or less still in the range of dried black cherry, but it's secondary to the other range now.  Just a touch of tartness integrates well with that particular fruit range.  Ordinarily pronounced tartness makes black tea unpleasant, to me, but in a very limited amount it can be good, especially when it integrates well with the rest.

This tea is more intense than the other; the taste is stronger, and it carries over to aftertaste more.  It spans more range; it's more complex as well.  The other expresses a little more depth; there's something about it that seems to convey a deeper, more grounded taste experience.  Maybe that relates to the mineral input, or maybe it's an emergent effect that's mainly in my own interpretation, instead of the aspects themselves.

It occurs to me to keep mentioning how I like both in comparison to each other round to round; usually reviews never include that.  The Thai tea might be better in a couple of senses but the Vietnamese version really matches a style I love, so I'd go with that.  I would guess that this Thai tea is far from finished though, that it will keep evolving and changing, and will brew a long cycle, so it may seem better in one or two more senses before it's over.

back in this Bangkok home tasting space

Ina, that Siamese cat, has a cool look, but all of our cats do

VS Y Ty #3:  the warmer tones shift a little; what had been mineral and a vague earthy input changed to be closer to leather.  In a good sense; the warm and sweet tone of a new bomber jacket material, not the musty and harsher scent of older horse saddle.  Cacao stands out more than ever.  Flavor intensity is kind of in a normal range, but depth adds to the experience, in a way that's hard to describe.  For people who drink Dian Hong (Yunnan black tea) that description would already be quite familiar.  

Wawee:  fruit picks up.  It's still black cherry, but it has expanded quite a bit in range, so it's that plus something else, or more than one other thing (a little citrus enters in, and something like butternut squash flavor joins the rest).  The tartness has almost entirely dropped out.  The form of that fruit is intense, sweet, and complex, taking on a fruit roll-up sort of character.  

Incense / bark spice and mineral tone have moved into a supporting flavors role.  At this point the Wawee tea is better, per my subjective judgment, and I suppose if one tried to claim some sort of objective assessment form probably better in that sense too.  Compression level was too high in a version of this I bought 2 or 3 years ago, which really did impact the experience of it, but they've got it just right for this cake, loose enough that it comes apart easily using a pu'er knife (or pick, or whatever, maybe even just your fingers).

I've been brewing these relatively quickly, because the intensity was fine for that for both.  I might go a little longer to see what changes, from 10 seconds or so up to more than 15, or close to 20.

These are both really exceptional black teas.  I've tried some pretty good black tea versions over the past few years and both hold their own with any of it.  I've tried a lot more range over the decade prior to that, or even 15 years, but it's harder to use older experiences as a reference.

VS Y Ty #4:  it really didn't change much, for being brewed just a little longer.  Heavier mineral flavor input occurs; that's normal.  Feel comes across as thicker and richer, but it was already ok anyway.  The feel hasn't been exceptional, but the range was positive, and it supported the overall experience.  It contributes some aftertaste experience, broadening the overall effect, but not so much.  

The main positive is that the flavor range is a personal favorite, and there is nothing like a flaw in this.  Flavor intensity could be higher, but a black tea version expressing limited complexity and intensity but good depth seems to also work, for me.  The flavors a tea does express need to be what one likes, and to match well, in such a case, but that's true for me for this.  I could probably drink a kilogram of this tea, and not tire of it.

I'm probably making this sound like a basic, simple, limited intensity tea version more than really applies to it.  It is expressing some roasted sweet potato or yam flavor, something along the line of cinnamon, and depth that reminds me of root spice, along with pleasant mineral range.  It only seems to lack complexity and intensity in comparison with the other version, which is an unusually strong and complex tea.

Wawee:  the fruit effect changed again.  Now it's closer to elderberry, an interesting range.  It is a stronger tea, across most dimensions.  Flavor range is stronger, flavor complexity is broader, feel is more pronounced, and aftertaste expression is much stronger.  In part that could be because it's from better tea plant material, but it's also more completely oxidized (it seems; the leaves are a little darker, and it brews darker).  I'm not saying that to move on to claiming that the other Vietnamese tea has more aging potential, but it probably does.  It could also just be a different style.

For people into free-associating a mix of different flavor aspects there's a lot for starting points in this Thai tea version.  I do enough of that in these text reviews, but when I drink tea for my own experience only I just go quiet, and accept the experience without analysis.

This is probably a good point to leave off with notes.  These will shift a little more over two more infusions, probably with the Thai version changing more, and maintaining more intensity.  Both teas will be similar though.  

Trying the next round confirmed this.  The Thai tea is finally losing just a little intensity, and it took a round off transitioning in flavor character, with the Vietnamese tea holding up to the same earlier level of intensity and depth.  It might be that the Vietnamese tea can keep going longer for brewing out slower, that the trade-off for the Thai version was that the first 4 or 5 infusions might be better (in a limited sense; preference determines that), and stronger, but that it can't keep that up for as long.

Both are great.  Anyone would be lucky to cross paths with one of these teas.

I'm reminded of holding a tea tasting a decade or so ago, letting the guests try a black tea like one of these.  One commented that they didn't know that they liked black tea until they had that experience.  I looked back through posts to see when that was; it was here, in 2017 (and it was a Farmerleaf sun-dried Dian Hong).  I had covered a lot of ground by then, in four years of writing this blog.

In case it seems that I'm exaggerating these experiences, that every tea is just fantastic all of the time, I can point out that the last two sheng that I tried were quite good, high in quality level, distinctive, and positive, but more limited in relation to a match to my own preference.  Now with these black teas we're back to everything being just great, including that part. 

I have more ordinary versions of tea on the way; that will shift again.  In an online discussion someone mentioned that a standard, budget oriented, blended version was pretty good, from a producer I had tried teas from before, so I'll be covering a little of that range soon.  Not really low cost factory tea, but towards that theme.

one of the two other cats

Timmie with her sister

Vietnamese tea status, according to two experts

 

Steve of Viet Sun!

Seth and Huyen, visiting Bangkok

The tea industry in different countries in South East Asia can be dynamic, and Vietnam has a broader range of good tea to offer than any of its neighbors, except for China, and styles and higher quality levels seem to be developing there.

I asked two friends to share input on this.  Steve of Viet Sun is a main Western facing vendor, focusing on pu'er, or the local equivalent type.  Seth is a tea researcher, working on very developed writing on tea, along with Huyen, one of my favorite tea friends.  Seth is too; they're both great, and knowledgeable to a degree that's hard to relate to.

How does the perspective and demand on tea seem to be changing in Vietnam (by consumers)?

  

Steve:  I work mostly with old tree assamica teas (what many people in Vietnam call trà shan tuyết or shan, snow shan tea in English) as well as wild varietal non-sinensis teas so I’ll only speak on that segment of the industry. I see a lot of people getting into these types of tea, many just over the past few years. There are more and more tea shops opening and offering many styles of higher quality teas in bigger cities like Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City. The demand is still quite low compared to green tea from Phú Thọ and Thái Nguyên provinces though. 

Many tea makers are experimenting with different styles. For example, you can go to villages in Cao Bồ, Hà Giang and find multiple teamakers who make halfway decent- good versions of many different tea styles, while 5 or so years ago it was difficult. Many producers see other producers making new styles of tea (raw puerh, black, white) and they start producing it themselves with varying degrees of success. 

An example of this is some time in the past couple years, a couple tea makers started making tea stuffed wild tangerine tea. Now many tea makers all over Hà Giang are making them. Many however, apply that higher volume “export tea” mindset into making these other styles and often fail to sell these teas due to competition from higher quality similarly priced options. 

Yt Y local area tea trees; photo credit to Steve

that tea, prepared as a tea cake, or bing

the right spelling (accent / diacritic)

Seth:  Matcha has exploded in popularity among the general public. Matcha products are now widely available in cafes all around Vietnam, and many tea factories have started producing matcha. This fits easily into the milk tea trend that started more than ten years ago. 

In terms of tea shops offering specialty teas or a general trend of specialty tea consumption in Vietnam, that is still only a small part of the overall market. Most locals middle aged or older drink green tea produced in Thai Nguyen, but there’s a rising demand for teas that use less industrial production techniques, which has created an opening for teas from Vietnamese heritage varietals like the various Assamica varietals locals call “Shan.” 

On the higher end, there are a lot more players in the market than there were ten years ago. These are mostly business people from Hanoi who see opportunities to invest in tea as a luxury product for higher income brackets in Vietnam. Some of the tea makers who focused on the Chinese market in the past have started expanding into the Vietnamese market since COVID forced them to look for new markets due to border closures. The shift to local markets seems to be enduring. There is also a rise in Chinese teas being sold in Vietnam, and some Vietnamese are making major investments in bringing Chinese tea to Vietnam, teas like Wuyishan wulong, Liubao, and Yunnanese teas. This is a small trend but seems to be prominent.

Editing input:  just a random tangent, but it's interesting that "oolong" always should have been "wulong," that the original transliteration was pretty far off (per my understanding, at least).  Now the right term depends on how you see language use conventions and transitions, and it really doesn't matter.

How is the industry changing in response to that, or do industry changes lead that other consumer perspective change?  Are producers exploring new styles, or is awareness of traditional tea styles broadening?

Steve:  The general attitude of many tea makers I know seems to be to focus more on higher quality tea or at least higher quality compared to the high volume “export grade” tea they were making for China. The Chinese tea industry seems to be quite unstable at the moment so many people are focusing their efforts locally as well as internationally in countries besides China. 

Seth:  Traditional tea styles in Vietnam are mostly dead or dying out. Most are extremely localized, within a few towns or districts, and they are not something that most Vietnamese people are even aware of, or would have an opportunity to try. In the specialty tea community in northern Vietnam, there is some interest in reviving tea production methods for Vietnamese yellow tea, which is made using an older technique for making Puer tea. Some are using this as material for making lotus tea, which is closet to the techniques that were used to make lotus tea about 100 years ago. 

The most popular traditional Vietnamese tea is still boiled fresh tea leaf. Locals will buy it at morning markets and drink it throughout the day. But this is mostly the older generation. The younger generation doesn’t tend to drink fresh tea leaves because there are lots of other beverages to choose from now. 

Editing input:  without some context it may seem like this input contradicts his last comments about people tending to drink Thai Nguyen green tea (sometimes branded as "fishhook" style).  Seth is surely aware of a range of very local tea styles that most of us will never hear about, even though I don't intend to add too much here to clarify what he really meant.  Western marketing tends to make it seem like there is really a much narrower subset of types out there than we see in online markets, even related to Chinese teas, which get the most exposure.

-are Facebook pages or online platform shops changing how tea is sold in Vietnam?

Steve:  Yes, many tea producers are on Facebook and many customers buy tea directly from them. Many tea shops have websites but they are often not updated. You usually have to contact them directly to see what their current offerings are.

Seth:  More rural tea makers are able to sell their teas directly to customers via Facebook. This offers the possibility of much higher income that they would make selling tea harvests to factories. However, the quality is not always consistent, and some of the tea can be quite rough, so Facebook marketplace doesn’t always translate to long term economic benefits for rural tea makers. In some cases, they wind up with bags of tea that they struggle to sell because of quality issues. Customers also have a higher risk of getting a product that isn’t satisfactory.

Editing input:  I've had very mixed experiences trying to buy tea locally, more in Thailand, but also from Vietnam.  Sometimes it works well, especially with others' help related to awareness of types and options, but you never see clear product listings, and issues like communication (language issues), money transfer, and shipping are all typically quite problematic.

-has foreign Western tea demand changed (consumer purchasing from outside of Vietnam)?

Steve:  I see interest in Vietnamese teas in the West growing year after year. Many people both tea business related and consumers travel to Vietnam to visit tea producing areas and tea shops in the cities. I don’t know exactly how other tea businesses are doing here but our sales have been growing gradually year after year.

Seth:  Changes in Chinese demand are pushing Vietnamese tea makers to look for new opportunities in the local market. The exact numbers are unclear.

The market for specialty Vietnamese tea is still miniscule outside of Vietnam, but awareness of Vietnamese tea is continuing to grow as tea enthusiasts introduce it more regularly to markets in the US, Europe, and Japan. Overall, this is still pretty small scale.

-can you add a little more about what is of interest to you related to Vietnamese tea experience or tea culture development?

Steve:  I really enjoy spending time in the tea mountains. The scenery is beautiful, there are many regional food and drink specialties and the culture of the different groups of people living in these areas is very interesting. Some tea areas have tea trees but there is little or no tea making happening there. Some areas just sell raw leaves to factories in other areas. I work with the local people and share what I know about tea processing and the tea industry in Vietnam. The state of protection of the tea trees is quite depressing in many tea areas here so It’s important to demonstrate the value and potential of what tea can provide with the people living there. 

I am currently focused on exploring new tea areas, learning more about tea production and the history of tea culture in Vietnam especially in the different tea producing areas. My favorite style of tea is raw puerh so I really enjoy getting to appreciate teas from many different terroirs in northern Vietnam. It’s also always fun to meet people interested in Vietnamese tea and share with them what I think are good examples of teas that represent the current state of tea in Vietnam. 

Seth:  There are more efforts now to create a unique Vietnamese tea identity by encouraging local ceramicists and potters to make tea ware, and locals tea enthusiasts are putting a lot of effort into spreading Vietnamese tea to an international audience, and pushing to improve the quality of Vietnamese tea products. 

Thoughts on this input

A Vietnamese tea friend, Huyen, who any longer term readers would be familiar with, just posted photos of a new tea shop in Hanoi (or a relatively new place; it could be an update about a renovation, or new space).  It's my understanding that shops are developing, especially in Hanoi, as mentioned in comments.  Huyen and her family (Tra Viet is a family business) sell a broad range of teas, of course, but they also focus on sharing demonstrations of traditional tea brewing practices, which are essentially the same as Gong Fu Cha, but surely also slightly different.

Huyen and her brother (her family is also great)

that shop, in Hanoi

It's a great time to explore Vietnamese teas, before that trend for higher demand catches up with expanding production supply, and costs rise.  

More basic range is also high in potential for exploration, so one might stay open to that side too.  That range isn't as widely available online as one might expect; Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, and Indian teas draw a lot of online focus, and Chinese and Japanese green teas are more popular.  It's kind of a shame, because even basic Thai Nguyen region "fishhook" style green tea can be nice (and I don't even love green tea), and higher quality, more novel types all the more so.

tea meetup with them in Bangkok

A small version of a tea tasting meetup (in Bangkok)

 

This last tea tasting meetup was really more just having tea with a few friends, but to me the way it worked out was interesting.  We tried some really novel teas, since two friends from earlier meetups had just visited China and Vietnam, even spending time with Huyen and her family there (in Vietnam), and with Seth.  I'd probably be more envious of that second part than visiting a tea expo; her family is amazing.

Since the interesting teas were the thing I'll get straight to that, and skip most of the back-story and other details.  We just got kittens a few days ago; that factored in a lot, so I'll mention it in passing, but that's an example of what I just said that I'd skip.  The kittens were well received, and Kalani helped with them and joined part of it, which has just never worked out before, either kid taking part.

I'll explain at the end what themes this highlights, how different kinds of tasting themes can work in different ways.  You don't really need one continuous, well-established theme for a tasting.

from another tasting (I should keep in touch better, mostly mentioning gatherings in this group)

What we tried

The tasting (from memory; some of this will probably be a little off).

Tea Side Dong Fang Mei Ren white tea:  we started with a tea I've reviewed recently, a white tea version of Dong Fang Mei Ren from the main Thai specialty tea outlet.  It's really nice tea, pleasant and interesting, and in a novel style (especially for being from Thailand), so it seemed a good place to start.  It's bright, sweet, fruity, well-balanced, complex, and refined.

that Tea Side Dong Fang Mei Ren (left), and a Gui Fei (rolled bug-bitten oolong)

another Thai Dong Fang Mei Ren white:  then we tried another white version of Dong Fang Mei Ren from Thailand that Steve brought; amazing it worked out like that (from Wang Put Tan, maybe it was).  I thought that might have been Tea Side's source, but the two versions were different.  They overlapped, being the same tea type, but oxidation level and aspects weren't identical.  Both versions were exceptional.  Probably producers can learn from what others do, and I've first tried Thai DFMR (Oriental Beauty) versions nearly a decade ago, so the theme has been around.

osmanthus rolled light oolong:  then we tried a flavored tea, unless I'm missing one, an osmanthus rolled oolong.  Flavored oolongs can be nice when the flavoring is natural, and this one was pretty good, relatively speaking.  It doesn't match the best plain teas, or even well above average versions, but it can be interesting trying different range together like that.  It didn't highlight the most potential a flavored oolong can have but it was interesting for comparison, and a nice tea, just a bit basic.

Ya Shi Dan Cong:  then Steve shared a Ya Shi Dan Cong (duck shit) version they bought in China.  It wasn't presented as the highest quality level, most costly tea version, since it sold for a moderate price, but it was pretty good.  The style wasn't identical to most well-above average Ya Shi versions, but it was close enough, and the variation wasn't necessarily negative, it was just a little different.  The smooth, roundish floral range typical of those was floral in a different way, with a different kind of vegetal edge, but without harsh astringency that can come up in some versions.  

It was really nice, really drinkable, and easy to enjoy.  People speak as if "breakfast tea" means something clear, as if a drinkable, moderate quality, pleasant to repeat tea experience can stand out for this context, and this would work well for that.  Black tea is nice with breakfast, but I more often drink sheng pu'er; it just depends.

Vietnamese sheng:  having tried so much oolong it seemed about time to change it up, so we tried a more-oxidized Vietnamese sheng version, one of my favorite teas, even though it's very non-standard, and not exceptional in terms of matching any of the standard pu'er range.  I don't think it would be great for long-term aging, that the oxidation input would offset that, but it's two years old now, and is probably getting better.  It's hard to describe what "more oxidized sheng" is like, but I've written plenty of detailed reviews that cover it in lots of detail.  This review compares the 2023 and 2024 versions; it would get into those kinds of background contexts.

those two "Quang Tom" tea cake versions (so fruity, I can almost smell them)

2018 Xiaguan Reunion sheng pu'er:  then we tried another sheng, that Xiaguan Reunion 2018 tea ball I reviewed recently, I guess not so much because it made sense in a sequence as much as because I found it so interesting.  It's not ready yet, in terms of optimum aging, far from it, but it's interesting see where such teas had probably came from and were heading, and how pleasant they are just now.  The mustiness from the local storage I said would fade over a month or two is already pretty much gone, and it has just been 3 weeks.  It drinks much better than it had, but it's still not where it will be in even another half dozen years, when transition makes more sense, or a decade, when it's closer to a final form.

looks like a tuo, but it's half a kilogram

high roast level Thai rolled oolong:  we got back to oolong, trying a well-roasted version, again out of Thailand.  Roasting had sort of taken over the character, making it more one-dimensional than most of what we'd already covered.  If someone would love that one flavor range it could still seem great, but low level oxidation, higher roast input rolled oolong isn't a personal favorite.  

Producers or vendors who have tea around that's a year or two old and want to add more freshness or appeal to it are kind of stuck, it seems.  A light roast might help, or there's always flavoring to be considered, but in general the material is as good as it is, and that's hard to change.

medium quality, medium roast rolled oolong (probably from China):  then we tried another that wasn't so different for comparison, to see if the gaps in that Thai version were a quality issue, related to the material missing range, or how themes might shift.  This moderate quality version had more going on, and less roast input, so it was better, even though it was clearly kind of medium quality tea, nothing exceptional.  It had a bit of a woody flavor, versus floral tones or warmer cocoa range standing out, but that also leaned a bit towards spice, so it was nice.

Thai black tea, prepared as ground tea:  then we tried something really novel, a ground up black tea, out of Thailand, an experiment that was supposed to draw on a matcha theme to be used to make milk tea, I think it was.  It was pretty good.  It ended up working out as brewed dust instead of obtaining a matcha-like whisked (blended) thickness, but maybe it had potential to be prepared differently.  

It's possible that maxing out astringency input and getting it to brew faster and more completely for use as a milk tea could make sense, that brewing this form could be better in some way.  Or it's possible that it's just an experiment, and completely brewing a broken leaf version would work out similarly, or even better.

I may have missed one or two.  It was a lot to try, and took awhile.  It was fascinating trying such a broad range of teas, and great talking so much that at times we drifted well off the subject of tea, on to current events, our own life patterns, politics, and so on.  People into tea are surely familiar with that, how tea can support much more lively and diverse conversation than alcohol, under the right circumstances.  And having kittens and a child join made more sense with the tea, than if we had been getting drunk instead.

So what is the point of sharing this?  Bragging?  Recommending that others get together with people they know, or don't know, and try lots of teas together?  To me it's that last part.  People into tea seem to often be pretty nice, and when others can appreciate a broad range then all of you being fascinated by lots of what is experienced really adds to a gathering.  

It can work mixing a lot of types of experiences together, with sub-themes mostly linking two or three versions, then moving on to the next range.  If you want to experience the most of a higher quality, refined form then it could be better to dial in focus and pay more attention, drinking teas that are similar in a sequence that makes sense.  But for a visit that divides focus on discussion and trying lots of tea range the other way can be good too.  

It can be interesting trying a tea with a novel flaw, just to see what that is like (trying one with storage flavor input contamination comes to mind, white tea probably stored near laundry soap), but of course then you wouldn't brew it for very many infusions, and in some cases might want to discard a rinse, if that frames it better.

It was especially interesting hearing about what a Chinese tea expo is like, and shops in a tea area in China, and how exploring tea in Vietnam went.  I feel like I'd be speaking for someone else telling a lot of their story in summarizing that though, and the ideas covered so much ground I would miss parts, or screw up framing.  It sounded like a real high water mark tea experience, the kinds of things I've never done myself (both of those broad themes).  I've seen markets in different places, and tea plants growing in a few, but it was never like that.

I'll sample a single interesting idea just to show what I'm leaving out.  They said that in China now no one pays with cash (not so unusual, I guess), and that you need to have WeChat payment capacity set up, or other local apps a foreigner wouldn't have, and that this one step was a bit tricky to clear.  It worked for them, so it wasn't a huge hurdle, it was just interesting hearing about the final process.  People use payment apps in Thailand too, but they're usually good about accepting cash, and often accept credit cards if they don't take cash.

There were lots of other tangents that came up; it would take pages to capture even main parts.  It was nice touching on personal background and current events some too.  I've met them all a few times, just not together, so it was like catching up again, and adding meeting my kids and the kittens added some chaos and also an interesting extra dimension.

Kalani made shirts for them from a sock

wearing a hat (with some goat's milk spilled on me)

they sleep all piled together, at times looking like a yin-yang symbol

Eye with them (right); thanks to Ploy (left) for giving them to us

Fasting introduction; how to water fast for multiple days

 

shou / shu pu'er is best for fasting, very mild on your stomach

This topic came up in online discussion recently, one that I've written quite a bit about here.  Earlier posts were never really designed as a short introduction and how-to, so to supplement that other discussion I'll write that out here.  To be clear I might have only fasted for a total of 60 days or so, so I'm definitely no expert, really only getting started myself.  

Before getting into that I think a couple of preliminary factors apply:

1.  Why fast?

That discussion was about potential anti-aging benefits, and I guess that is one reason.  I've almost entirely reversed my experience of greying hair, probably from this input, over the course of the first year, or maybe less.  Of course I didn't take up fasting for that reason.  It is claimed to reduce risk of severe illnesses, especially cancer and diabetes, and it was partly about that.  But who knows about that, really.

It's also supposed to improve energy level, especially metabolic flexibility, use of internal fat for metabolism.  And to improve mental clarity, which I guess could've happened, but it's hard to track.  And it's hard to separate causes; I've been exercising more than ever and eating a better diet since I started fasting, about 2 1/2 years ago.  

Of course people also fast for weight loss, but that often may not work as well as expected.  I think my metabolism may have slowed slightly, related to fasting practices, and I've gained a few pounds in that 2 1/2 years.  It could just be muscle mass gain; I am exercising quite a bit, running 20 miles per week most weeks, swimming more than ever, and dabbling in pickleball most recently.

a picture from my running route this week; it's nice here, in Honolulu

2.  Are there risks?

There are risks related to almost everything, including fasting.  In general it's accepted as very safe to fast, by fasting practitioners, but it's probably not safe to fast for 3 days or longer without supplementing electrolytes (sodium, potassium, and magnesium).  Low levels of those will cause low energy level, headaches, muscle cramps, brain fog, dizziness, and problems sleeping.  

How much to supplement, and in what form, is quite complicated.  You can't take pills to supplement salts (what those are), because the volume is too high, and any type of tablet form could become stuck to the lining of your stomach and cause a problem.  Magnesium might be the exception to that; you only need to supplement about 400 mg a day of that, versus 1 to 2 grams of the other two (with that requirement varying by different factors).

I definitely wouldn't recommend ramping up fasting practices quickly; it would be better to give your body time to adjust to the new experiences.  Some degree of hunger experience is normal, of course, and also disrupted energy level and mental focus.  After 2 or 3 trials of an extended fast all of that subsides quite a bit, and your mental clarity actually improves, energy level is quite consistent, even high.  Later hunger experience takes on a completely different form, much reduced in intensity.

This isn't a comprehensive listing of risks.  Specific pre-existing conditions could connect with more serious risks.  In case of any concerns consulting a doctor would be best.

General approach

There's not so much to it; you supplement electrolytes, drink plenty of water, and don't eat.  Most people will consume coffee, tea, or tisanes (herb teas), and some will drink diet sodas, while others won't.  Anything containing next to no calories won't break a fast.  Something like adding lemon slices to water might constitute a grey area; there is some calorie input in that, so most people who fast wouldn't do this, but it probably wouldn't change much.  Discussion of bone broth as an input comes up; if that contains any calories, as it generally would, that would break the fast.  I won't take vitamin C tablets that contain 10 calories, typically, but I suppose in a special case I might make an exception, if my throat felt a little sore, for example.

The concern isn't necessarily the idea of pure fasting, instead that ingesting any calories could trigger hunger response and digestive system activity, even when that's as limited as a cough drop.  It's as well to err on the lower side.  Some people would continue taking multi-vitamins, and other supplements, and some see it as a good time to take a break from those, as something along the line of a "detox," a concept typically not utilized by most in discussion of fasting, per my experience.

To begin fasting one might do well to employ a staged approach, trying out limited period eating first (within a 4 hour window, for example), then 24 hour fasts, on to two days, and so on.  There is no need to try 3 to 4 days on an early attempt.  I did, but I'm communicating this to help others learn from my mistakes.  Experience of hunger over the first 48 hours is severe, and it doesn't decrease much over the next 2 or 3 days.  Your body can adjust to use body fat as an effective energy source, which is very readily available, there just for that purpose, but you need to condition yourself to do so.

How to supplement electrolytes

This is a lot more complicated than it probably first seems.  A first inclination is to buy a pre-mixed, flavored, pre-measured packet, like LMNT products.  That could work.  Even using this approach someone should consult a decent reference about daily requirements in relation to fasting, because the included levels may not be optimized for that.  

This Reddit fasting sub wiki could be helpful.  I think that recommendation range is a bit high, extending up to 6 grams a day of sodium and 4.7 grams of potassium.  My guess is that few people could tolerate anywhere near those amounts.  Everyone would need to experiment to see what works best for them anyway, probably starting much lower in the range.  Their magnesium recommendation of 300-400 mg per day seems about right, and that may be somewhat universally applicable.  The low end of the range they recommend, on the order of a gram a day for both sodium and potassium, might work for a starting point.  Note that this would be the weight of the sodium and potassium in the related compounds, not the amount of total salt, including the "chloride" or whatever else.

It's possible to use very common, inexpensive sources for these salts.  Sodium can be consumed as table salt, or alternatively from baking soda.  Potassium is most typically encountered as potassium chloride, although there must be other forms.  Magnesium is more complicated, since many people report experiencing strong laxative effects from some forms.  It all requires more consideration and review than I'll try to support here.  In theory food-grade versions of epsom salt could supplement magnesium, but that form, magnesium sulfate, may really act as a stronger laxative than other compound versions.

That Reddit sub wiki recommends making up a "snake juice" daily supplementation mix and drinking that, along with extra water intake.  That does work, but drinking salt water can seem a bit rough, even diluted forms.  I've experimented with variations of that practice, and for me it works best to drink a good bit sort of as meals, 3 to 4 times a day.  For sure even sodium and potassium can act as a powerful laxative if you ingest too much too quickly; everyone taking up fasting has that experience at some point.  I can't stand the taste of baking soda in such a mix; that kind of factor enters in.  

Flavoring that mix might be promising, but many people adjust to tolerating it without that step.  There are two schools of thought about stevia and artificial sweetener input, which could relate to this.  One take is that it can cause an insulin release response, and the other is that it probably doesn't.  I don't drink much for sweetened tisanes or diet sodas but I've not noticed any related effects when I have, any problems of any kind.

Muscle cramps are one clear sign that your electrolyte balance is off, or trouble sleeping could be.  I sleep well while fasting, in general, but while exploring electrolyte supplementation I often didn't.

Drinking a lot of water seems crucial.  Some people report good results from drinking an awful lot, much more than 2 liters a day, so I suppose it comes down to personal judgment and experimentation.

Limitations of fasting, related practices

You can exercise while fasting; that seems to work.  I keep intensity moderate, and have evolved practice to use it as a good time for a break from running, but I do tend to walk a lot while I fast.  It keeps my energy level up, and helps me shift over to the experience ketosis faster over the first two days.

In fasting circles discussion the main restriction is on discussing that you are fasting, with anyone, under any circumstances.  I don't observe this, but I get it.  Some people are put off by it, and in one discussion account their company's HR department required them to stop the fast.  It's a judgment call.  People do have an aversion to practices that are completely unfamiliar to them, so in general discussing fasting isn't met with acceptance or interest.

I work well while fasting; the busier I stay the easier it is, and my productivity level can be even higher than when I'm not fasting.  The extra mental clarity, after you adjust to it, is really something to experience.  Flashes of creative insight and productivity can be quite an experience, surpassing what I almost ever go through at other times.

How long someone can or should fast is relatively open, or duration over time.  It depends on the purpose.  People trying to lose weight describe fasting for up to 3 weeks or so in that fasting group; beyond that many report relatively severe side effects, or some in even less time.  Most people there adopt periodic fasting instead, like rotating 3 or 4 day fasting and eating periods (rolling 48s or 72s).  

This is just my take, but it would intuitively seem necessary to eat a very nutritionally balanced diet while trying to pull that off, during the days that one eats, including plenty of protein, healthy fats, and micronutrients.  Additionally supplementation through multi-vitamins might make a lot of difference.  I wouldn't undertake such a practice myself, but then I've not been trying to lose weight.

I fast for 5 days at a time, generally 4 times per year.  For someone trying to maximize or optimize the types of inputs I'm going after, improved general health, and experience of autophagy (cellular recycling), that might be sufficient, or alternating 4 day fasts every other month could be a next further step.  Maybe someone could obtain most of the same benefits only fasting every 6 months, for that same period, 5 days.  To me it helps to not go too long in between fasts to retain the acclimation to the experience.

Other sub-themes

There are so many other related sub-themes one might venture into.  Is it dangerous to break a fast by eating a lot of sugar, or too much food?  Yes, but not so much for shorter fasts, for a period of a week or less.  You definitely should break a fast by eating healthy food though, no junk food, fast food, or high sugar content foods.  Even very high fiber it would be best to avoid, resetting your digestive system with easy to process, balanced foods.  I often broke fasts by eating a healthy version of a burger and fries, so it doesn't need to be so healthy, or as easy to digest as rice soup.  Then I tried it using McDonald's food once, when time was tight, and it took days for my digestive system to recover.  I guess I had that coming, for straying so far from common sense.

Drinking bone broth comes up as a topic, both in relation to a question about whether it would break a fast (it would; even minimal calorie input breaks a fast), and related to a potential input to re-start digestion.  If someone fasts for two weeks or longer you need to re-feed in a much more careful, controlled way, or it really can be quite dangerous.  In such a case using bone broth as a gradual resumption of digestion could work well, according to plenty of discussion input.  But this is a topic I have no first-hand experience with, to be clear; I've only ever fasted for five days at a time.

People ask about what can offset hunger when fasting, if drinking water or salt-water might work, or if there are other "hacks."  It can't hurt to drink a little water or salt-water, but in general the hunger experience is just part of it, kind of unavoidable.  It subsides after 2 or 3 trials, but in those first rounds it's rough.  Your stomach might rumble or produce some gas, and thoughts of food don't quiet down.  Again I think gradually building up to longer periods--5 days; not multi-week fasts--might help.  To me there is no reason why one would need to go further, why fasting for a week or longer would make sense.  Autophagy is said to peak at or after 48 hours, so a 5 day break goes plenty beyond that.

Even though I've said that I've not used fasting for weight loss I can pass on speculation about how that might work.  I reset my diet to be just a little cleaner and healthier after every fast, and I think an approach like this could work.  You could reset, re-start eating, at a slight calorie deficit, switching to 1800-2000 calories per day, if you normally eat more.  You might just reset your metabolism to be slower, instead of inducing gradual weight loss, so it might work as an option to try dropping to 1500 calories for a couple of extra weeks.  Given that fasting could cause micro-nutrient gaps restarting diet to be much healthier than normal would make sense, especially if the idea is to eat less.  If you wake up and eat a few frozen waffles with syrup and then skip eating until dinner your diet will be essentially empty.

One main theme that people lean into in a fasting sub (group) is drawing on support from others to continue a fast, often supported by using an app to track fasting time.  I don't do any of that.  I wouldn't need a timer counting down hours across a period of five days, because I already know exactly when I started.  It wouldn't help me to know that a few internet strangers were also not eating at the same time.  But I don't think that my own approach and preferences are necessarily better for any reason.

I'm also not careful about making sure that I fast for the entire 120 hours (5 days); I tend to start a fast after dinner the first day, and eat a normal dinner on the last, so I would really only fast for 4 days and 22 hours, or so.  These types of practices and preferences vary by person; I get it why crossing the actual finish line makes a lot of difference for most people, as a personal victory.  I would just as soon not re-start eating right before sleeping on that last day, so those kinds of concerns also factor in.

I've not mentioned when I would stop a fast, under what circumstances.  If I feel sick I might, unless symptoms are very mild.  If something feels off I would stop.  I've started to get sick before, the stage prior to the normal symptoms, sore throat and such, and resuming eating a day or two early has seemed to cut short that illness experience to follow.

The only times fasting has seemed to cause atypical health issues seemed to relate to getting electrolyte supplementation wrong, early on.  Experience of an irregular heartbeat is especially concerning; when that occurs I would stop the fast.  I have experienced plenty of hunger, of course, and energy level fluctuation and limited dizziness is normal.  If I feel off drinking a round of tisane (herb tea) seems to correct for that.  In some cases I may just be getting behind on hydration, so that it's really the water in the herb tea that's making the difference.  Drinking a bit of salt water, supplementing some extra sodium and potassium, will often make a difference.  I tend to take magnesium as tablets or capsules, a couple of times a day, so it's easy to keep up with that input.

Conclusions

I don't tend to recommend fasting often because it's just too extreme a practice for most people.  Maybe not as much in other cultures with that practice as a component, but most Thais and Americans certainly can't relate to it.  Since I don't really recommend it for weight loss, as covered here, it's hard to suggest with certainty that it's great for general health, even though that is my understanding.  I think my general mental clarity has improved since fasting, and again I lost the experience of greying hair, which may well connect with other forms of internal systems health that is less obvious.

It's a little harder than I've let on, especially for the first 2 or 3 fasts.  Hunger experience is profound.  I think someone could avoid most of that by using a staged, progressive approach, as I've described.  Now when fasting I can go hours of the day without thinking about food at all.  The sharp, intense experience of hunger no longer occurs, and a dull empty feeling is quite diminished.  It does add some tension, or light underlying mental stress, that never completely goes away.  I find this comparable to the off feeling related to being jet-lagged; something isn't completely normal, for days.  Over time being jet-lagged seems normal to you though, and so does fasting experience, to an extent.

Optimum timing would vary by schedule demands, and how someone relates to different phases of the experience.  To me the first day is very easy, the second sometimes relates to the most experience of hunger, and on day three adjustment of energy level can occur.  Then days 4 and 5 tend to be easier, but mental tension can increase a little.  It seemed to work out well to start fasting on a Wednesday, on work-weeks, because that day is the easiest, and weathering Friday was the main concern.  Then fasting on off-work days was easy, because I could add a nap to offset energy issues, or make the time go faster, and watch more video content to stay distracted.

I think in the future fasting will become much more accepted, in "the West," but not any time soon. We're just not there yet.  Isolated positive accounts will continue to enter into public awareness, but it will probably take years for this kind of experience to become more mainstream.  It's trending more lately, and plenty of health-guru types now recommend it, especially more science-oriented examples of that broad type, like Huberman and the like.  Even so I think people will take up easier versions of their trend-oriented recommendations first, like trying to get some sun exposure in the morning, or ice baths.  It's much easier to exercise than to fast, and a little of that exposure goes a long way for general health.