Comparing 2016 and 2017 Vietnamese and Thai sheng versions

 

I've been going on and on about how some South East Asian sheng versions don't have the right character to age well, and here's a chance to look into that further.  One sample Steve of Viet Sun passed on with an order from them, and another Wawee Tea passed on with an order from them (many thanks to both!).  Let's see how they are.

It's interesting considering vendors' takes on teas, which I typically never review prior to making tasting notes, as I didn't this time either.  Here's the Viet Sun listing:

Thượng Sơn 2016  (selling for $98 for a standard 357 gram cake; not bad)

A really nice tea from Thượng Sơn, Hà Giang made in the spring of 2016.

This along with the Thượng Sơn 2022 tea really showcase just how special the Thượng Sơn terroir is.

This tea was made from the same plus a couple of adjacent ancient tree gardens as the Thượng Sơn 2022 and was processed in a smiliar manner.

This tea has been aging in climate controlled storage (around 24-27 degrees Celsius and 70 degrees humidity). It still retains its heady alpine fragrance but has taken on some pleasing camphor and fragrant wood/ caramel notes. Heavy sweetness and low-medium bitterness/ astringency.

Rich huigan and strong qi. Nice tea for evenings and cooler days.

I enjoy drinking this one along with its 2022 counterpart to really get an idea of the transition from the new tea to its current state.

Interesting!  Specific interpretation never matches between people passing on impressions but that does match my general take on the tea.  It was good; more complex, intense, and positively transitioned than I expected, by a good bit.

I couldn't find any sort of product listing for the Wawee version, and search only brought up this Instagram mention of it:

Wawee Tea 2017 sheng (Pitakvavee Series):

Raw Pu-erh tea, aged 7 years.

Net weight 357 g.

The taste is very sweet and juicy.

So they were selling this as cakes, even though the sample they sent me hadn't been pressed, it was maocha / loose.  "Sweet and juicy" isn't much to go on, but I can see if that matches.  I've already reviewed this tea, so I know what to expect; here it's more for a point of comparison with the other.  

It had aging potential; it's not going to be a version that just fades away, or starts to just taste like wood, as some versions can.  I already knew that it was good, and pleasant to drink at this age, even though I end up speculating that this aging  / fermentation stage might not be optimum.

Review:  

Thuong So Spring 2016 sheng:  interesting!  Warm mineral base stands out first, and a complex feel structure.  This is barely started infusing, so these will just be initial thoughts.  It's pretty far through aging transition.  Seven years is awhile, but it can just depend on storage conditions, and this was fairly tightly pressed.  I've tried decade old sheng that wasn't nearly as far through transition, surely stored under drier conditions.  

The general character of this is fine, as it should be, not a case of a sheng version seeming to fade or oxidize more than it fermentation transitions.  Feel might include a little extra dryness.  It's as well to hold off on flavor list and other judgments until next round.  I can add that I've tried a purple leaf version that was among the driest in feel of any teas I've ever had recently, a Yunnan sheng version, and this isn't completely unlike that, just not nearly as intense (that related dry feel).

Wawee Tea 2017 sheng (Pitakvavee Series):  much lighter, just in appearance alone.  A different mineral base stands out in this, a drier version, which also includes some warm tones.  This is going to be a mineral intensive session!  Complex flavors and some sweetness is already developing, even though this is barely started.  It seems warmer toned than the color implies that it would.  Feel has more conventional sheng astringency structure than the other version.

Vietnamese sheng, round 2:  brewed tea color evened up in the two versions quite a bit; interesting.  There are inconsistent colors in this tea version.  The other leaves vary some in color but not like this.

A slight mustiness from storage input (probably) stands out.  This is going to infuse and transition differently related this being a hard pressed cake, versus the other maocha.  After next round it will be completely wetted but the layered sheets of leaves only came apart so much initially.  As a result flavors that would typically transition through over the first two rounds could last into the fourth.

The dryness eases up already, but it's still a dominant aspect.  Even next round may be early to determine how this aged, what it might have been like initially, and what potential for further transition remains.  Then it's always odd trying teas as 6 and 7 year old versions, really right in between an early 3 or 4 years of transition being favorable and a fuller 15 to 20 year cycle being the next stage it makes sense to experience.  I just reviewed two Dayi 7542 versions in a similar age range for the same purpose, to become accustomed to that middle level aging range, to compare versions.  Both of these are as soft and approachable as Tie Guan Yin oolong compared to those, a completely different range of tea.  Better luck with flavor list breakdown next round, or the one after.

Thai sheng:  this is moving through an infusion transition cycle much faster so any direct comparison would be more about that, related to this being maocha, to being fully wetted.  It's pleasant.  A broad and intense mix of mineral tones stand out, with limited bitterness, moderate but nice sweetness, and other complex flavors.  

I think listing flavors next round will still make as much sense, once early round transitions are completely settled out.  It tastes of age already, on to old books or furniture related flavors, a bit ahead of schedule.  Maybe that's from storage conditions input, that these were stored in a wood paneled room environment?  Spending years in a place with lots of very old tea might have entered in as well.

Vietnamese #3 (brewed a little lightly; it seems time to ease up on intensity):  complexity keeps ramping up, and the clean character shines through (not that it was musty before, but it picks up depth and richness, and that early dryness is dropping out fast).  This is quite nice.  

Lighter tones pick up; that's interesting.  A hint of something along the line of lemongrass or citrus shines through.  It joins plenty of warmer tones, tied to earlier character.  Mineral is still a strong base but moderate now, more integrated.  I bet a medium strength infusion next round will show completely different character again, which is always an interesting experience, lots of transition that includes adding complexity and overall improvement.

Thai:  this becomes more complex too, and also softens some, the transitions just aren't as dramatic as for the other, since it started brewing faster.  A green wood tone stands out.  It probably sounds better to describe that as a mix of warm and also light mineral base coupled with spice range, identified and broken apart a bit more.  The aged character aspect faded some already, but it's still present.  

There is no challenging range, as with the 7542 versions I just reviewed, but some edgier feel and flavor range is somewhat comparable, just as such a more moderate level that it's not as much something to endure, or struggle to brew around, as is true of 6 or 7 year old 7542 versions.  I'm not sure this is at a fermentation transition stage that makes the most sense, that it wouldn't have been better 3 years ago, or wouldn't be even better yet in another 10.  

This tea has (/ had) aging potential; that was and is true of both of these teas.  They're just on a completely different cycle than those more intense Yunnan factory sheng, which need a full 20 years of somewhat humid storage (moderate or high) to draw into a more fully aged range, where after 20 you might want to leave it sit a few more years to see how it keeps changing.  Related compounds in these teas will also change over a 20 to 25 year cycle, but they're drinkable now, at 6 or 7 years along.  Not optimum now; not even close, probably.

Vietnamese, #4:  this is really hitting it's stride.  The balance of all the aspects works so much better than early rounds.  That's not unusual; often the first couple of rounds of a sheng can seem edgy or not developed yet, and harder pressed versions that didn't separate as well might take an extra round.  The same aspects are present but it's just much more pleasant and well-balanced.  Dryness is all but gone, related to being a dominant aspect early on, falling back to fill in a decent feel structure, that comes across as rich and almost sappy (not quite, but towards that).  Mineral and other rich flavor tones fill in, with a brighter and lighter range integrating and complementing that.  

It doesn't "break apart" easily.  A richer tone might be along the line of a warm spice input, or that and also including something like dried tamarind.  The lighter range is subtle, easy to miss, but that leans towards citrus, or maybe lemongrass works better.  It's funny how there's a lot going on but it comes across as all one thing, as an integrated set.

Thai:  this is the best it has been yet too; both of these teas don't disappoint.  A light, dry mustiness is all but completely faded now, integrated with the rest as a secondary input.  Warm, rich tones dominate.  What had seemed a little like green wood last round has transitioned to a more aromatic wood tone, close to spice range, along the line of cedar.  People don't seek out cedar flavor as a favorite in sheng experience but it works in this, balanced with the rest.  

Mind you both of these are not peaking at this point in transition, per my interpretation and preference.  This is about judging style and potential as much as drinking these for the best aging input representation of these teas.  I'm going to skip guessing how humid and warm the conditions were where these were stored; maybe I could make sense speculating about that, but it probably wouldn't add much, or be informative.  

[later edit:  Steve added that the Vietnamese version was naturally stored, in conditions relating to whatever occurred outside, for two years, and then was in controlled storage the rest of the time, from 24 to 27 degrees held at 70% humidity.  There's a good chance the Thai version was naturally stored, at that humidity during the wetter season and a good bit drier otherwise. 27 is air conditioned indoor temperature in Bangkok--around 80 F--but I think up north that can be more of a normal temperature range, and it tends to get much cooler at night].

They're both not the lighter, sweeter, less structured style of sheng that I keep referring to, versions that you should either drink brand new or within 3 or 4 years of aging.  Maybe they were fine back then but they still have potential to age transition positively.  They give up plenty of intensity to standard factory sheng versions, to Dayi numbered series teas or Xiaguan, but then what doesn't.  That's not necessarily a clearly good or bad thing; it depends on preference, and on a final aging result outcome.

Vietnamese, round 5:  it is about time to stop drinking these but I might make it through one more round after this one, the one I regret for going too far.  

This is quite pleasant.  It's interesting how dryness and aged flavor input really stand out immediately, in the first flash of impression, and then richness and other complexity enters in a fraction of a second after, with sweet and light flavors showing through seconds in.  Aftertaste expression really ramps up; maybe from a brewing intensity difference?  

I wouldn't be surprised if this just keeps on transitioning, if it's different again in 2 or 3 more rounds.  We're now into range where that's not necessarily from the cake material taking time to get wet.  Variations in the material may be expressing themselves across different times more; it's not completely uniform.  That can lead to a tea version not integrating well, or it can provide a unique and interesting balance, and make for an interesting transition cycle.  Here it works well, I think.  I think it's just a complex and intense tea version too, that the quality is good.

Thai:  this seems a bit more uniform, as if it's transitioning from the tea itself offering a different balance of experience across rounds, not from varied material showing through more or less.  Leaf color isn't completely uniform in this either though, so that's just a guess.  Balance and integration of flavors works better in this than in early rounds too.  An early dry edge (not nearly as dry as the other) also faded to change to a complex structure in this.  

That cedar wood tone seems to be slowly transitioning towards more of a dried fruit range.  A brighter component of that leans a little towards citrus, in this case dried orange peel, where the other might have included a hint of fresh orange, or maybe even lemon.  That might work as an example of why this tea would be much better in 6 to 8 more years, or maybe even 10, so that more of that transition could occur.  Intensity is moderate now but it's not fading, although both of these may go through a quieter phase before an aspect / character type transition is more complete.  Probably they seem less intense than 3 or 4 years ago now due to a similar effect, being in between two places.

color is way different, with the Viet Sun version (left) more broken

Vietnamese, #6:  it's interesting how this is one year older but also much darker in leaf appearance, in spite of being stored pressed (hard pressed, even, but this sample is from near the center, the "beeng-hole" part, so maybe the rest wasn't).  It's not so different that the last description no longer works, not transitioning so much.  It really hangs together well; a nice light citrus aspect balances the rest well.  Sweetness is ok, not something I've been saying much about, but these aren't very sweet compared to easier to drink younger sheng versions.  It's sweet enough to balance positively.  

Feel and aftertaste structure are more pleasant in this than the other; maybe it's slightly better for those extra dimensions adding more to it.  There's a richness to the flavor set that works well too.  I really expected this to be different, to not hold up to 7 years of aging transition this well, to fade more.  It could be subtle as a 15 year old version but it won't be mostly faded, and it's definitely not in that range where sheng seems to just be oxidizing instead of fermentation transitioning.  I just tried a tea like that within the last couple of days, maybe of comparable age.  It wasn't so unpleasant but at least to me that type range and experience form seems quite inferior.

Thai:  this isn't really fading but the transition might not be further improvement at this stage; that might have leveled off.  The character is pleasant but it gives up a good bit in terms of integration, balance, richness, and aftertaste intensity to the other version.  I really expected the exact opposite; this Thai version is not bad, it's holding up and transitioning fairly well.  It would be easy to miss that distinction when trying these teas a week or two apart; it would be easy for a preconception or varied judgment to enter in, a mood change or difference from how I'm feeling on any given day.  Trying them side by side it's right there to experience; you can't miss it.

It might sound like I'm concluding something that I don't intend, that I'm saying that the Vietnamese tea is much better, and it has a lot more aging potential than the Thai version.  I don't know that.  They're both in odd places in a transition cycle, half-way through, and they're similar enough in character that a main difference might be how they are shifting just now, not related to final potential.  I would guess that this Vietnamese version might be better in another decade, as it seems more positive right now, but that guess could easily be wrong.  Time will tell.  

Both have pretty good character now, and seem to exhibit decent potential.  It's quite possible that the Thai version is a little more muted related to being one year behind, and storage conditions difference could've changed a lot, not necessarily in a way I could identify, but at a guess this Thai version is more like 3 years behind in aging related to storage conditions difference.  

Conclusions:

Interesting!  Both are pleasant, both seem to show good aging potential.  I don't own any more of the Vietnamese version and very little of the Thai is left, so maybe I'll never know.

One important generality to emerge is that I keep expressing how a range of styles of South East Asian teas seem to have a character best enjoyed young, within 3 or 4 years, or maybe even new or rested for a year or two, and that doesn't cover everything produced.  I suspect the other Wawee Tea version I bought this year may be similar, that it's going to be better in 15 years than it is just now.  In a sense that's great; good aging potential makes for fantastic tea, later on.  In a different sense it's a bit sad, because I loved the 2022 version rested only for a half a year to a year, and it was fantastic to drink at that stage.

It would be nice if I could specify what inputs and outputs led to that character difference, but all this isn't headed there.  Varying initial oxidation during processing, differences in sha qing / kill-green step; who knows?  That's part of what makes sheng pu'er experience so interesting (or "pu'er-style" teas), that the broad range of complexity variations don't necessarily end when you try the brewed teas, with aging shifting what you experience over time.

To me the Vietnamese version is better, as these stand now, and it's really down to a guess if the Thai version will be similar in character and as good in 2 or 3 more years when it catches up in terms of fermentation transition (catches up to the where the Vietnamese version is now; it will always be behind).  

More input enters in related to how the later rounds went; the Vietnamese version stayed just as intense and transitioned positively over a number of additional rounds.  It had a nice brandy-like quality, related to how those aspects came together.  The Thai version stayed about the same.  Based on this it sounds like the Vietnamese version was just better, and more suitable for aging, but again the Thai tea could be a but muted related to where it stands in the transition cycle.  Only trying it in three more years would tell that story.  I suspect it will be much improved, but maybe not quite as intense or complex, but that's just a guess.

Bangkok tea shops and cafes; online Thai tea options

 

It's been awhile since I've written anything about this (6 1/2 years), and for whatever reasons discussing it has come up a half dozen times or so in the last month.  Lots of people visit lately.  Of course this list is centered on my own favorites, but I'll try to map out a range of other options.

Online options are included in the last section; people not able to shop locally in Bangkok might scan through the rest and focus more on that, or just skip ahead.

Edit:  I've added Maps links to these, along with the Facebook or website references they first included, so it should be easy to find out more about these options or to physically finding them.

My Favorites:

Jip Eu (Maps link): my favorite Chinatown shop, where the owners feel a bit like family.  On the positive side they carry lots of teas, lots of types even, and most are sold at great value.  On the negative side it's a hard place to shop, because there is no menu or listing of options, it's not easy to sort out what is in there, and quality and style varies a lot.  Their storage ages sheng pu'er fast--it's Bangkok, so hot and humid--but teas pick up a little extra mustiness, which tends to fade over 3 to 6 months.

They would taste some teas with guests but not over and over, not whatever is in the store; they're not set up as a tourist outlet, selling more to locals who already know what they like.  I never end up trying the same teas twice there.  Their specialization is Wuyi Yancha, rock oolongs from Fujian, but they also have Tie Guan Yin (from China, from Anxi), an odd mix of sheng versions, some aged, Dan Cong, a random selection of black teas, and a little of this and that beyond those.  There's not much Thai tea, but they would have some, maybe just no rolled oolong, the standard form, and no Thai sheng, what I like best.

I've met many kind people there; this is Sasha and Maddhurjya, and Kittichai on the right

Some teas there are good value but of very moderate quality.  A main offering is 50 to 100 baht boxes or paper wrapped squares of Chinese and Thai material blends ($2 to $3 per 70 to 100 grams; very inexpensive).  Sometimes a Shui Xian version (rock oolong again) can be medium quality instead, in those blends, so it can happen that a $3 selection would be equivalent to $10 or $20 worth in a US shop.  That's rare though; usually the quality is so-so for cheaper versions.  

Good higher end Wuyi Yancha tends to sell for 1000 baht / $30 for 100 grams, which is still a good value for being a completely different type of tea.  They don't carry a lot of sheng pu'er but some of the options they do have are good basics.  I keep buying Xiaguan tuochas there, and a fully fermentation-transitioned Tulin tuo is nice for trying basic aged tea range.

K. Mui Kee Tea (Maps link): probably not so different than Jip Eu, and just a block and a half away, another old Chinatown shop.  I've visited a few times but keep going to Jip Eu instead.  They sell different teas in dried tangerine peels (chen pi, the name of the peel sold alone, or sometimes used as a name for the stuffed dried peels).  Those are most often shu pu'er, but can be other types.  That might be good for novelty, for a gift for someone.  Wuyi Yancha or Dan Cong might be ok there but you'd have to try it to check on quality and value to know.

that shop owner is so nice, and I don't even really know him

Sen Xing Fa (Maps link; still on Chinatown shops):  a higher volume, more tourist oriented outlet, closer to the Yaowarat strip area, in a side street that sells a lot of street cafe food.  Selection of Thai and Taiwanese medium quality rolled oolongs is good, but value is just normal for those, with many selling for $15 to 20 per 100 to 200 grams or so.  Selection is broad but quality and value is all over the place; you need to try teas to see what's there.  

Where Jip Eu will try some teas with you, but would draw the line at tasting a lot of versions, or opening some of any kind, you can sit and drink lots of tea with them here.  You pay the price in value related to that though; some teas are good for the selling price, others not so much.  They carry more new / young sheng and shu than the other places already mentioned, and sell more teaware.  Per visiting with a new tea contact recently it's probably not the best place to be buying expensive clay pots, yixing and such.  Moderate quality teacups and the like would be the same as buying them anywhere else, but it's rare to see as broad a range of options as they have anywhere else in Bangkok.

VIP guests and a main owner

they hosted a nice meetup this year.  sheng cakes and teaware are on the other side of the shop

Ju Jen (Maps link) I've only been to this shop a few times but I'll  include it in favorites since my experiences have always been so positive.  It's way out there on Srinakarin road, out towards Bangna and the airport in the Paradise Park mall.  They seem to have a lot of variety, and I'm not sure if there is a specialization.  I bought some interesting mini cakes of pu'er last time I was there, 100 gram versions; that's a nice way to try something different, or it works for the gift theme.  

I'm not sure how many local Thai tea options they carry, but I did just review a pretty good Oriental Beauty / Dong Fang Mei Ren version from there, so at least some.  There seemed to be plenty of teaware around, but I have no idea where they stand on sorting versions or value for clay pots.

Zhennan cafe (Maps link): I've only visited here a couple of times, a cafe in Chinatown, but I suppose it fits here.  Tea selection is limited, and nothing so novel and amazing, related to it being so small, but it has a nice feel, which to me is what cafe experience is all about.  If the listed teas on a menu don't sound interesting they might carry others; it wouldn't hurt to ask.  

There may be lots of similar options all around Bangkok; I hear of other places like this but typically don't visit them.  To be honest I don't love spending any time in cafes; I'd rather buy loose tea and drink it at home.  But visiting that Chinatown can be rough; lots of ground to cover.  It's right beside a main alley market I'd highly recommend, which has a decent tea shop in it, and a few other places to buy very low grade tea and mass produced teaware.  That may sound off-putting to most tea enthusiasts but it can be nice to have an extra glass teapot or a number of extra small cups for gatherings, if you don't already.

an international tea expert and friend visiting Zhennan (John Lim)

the Zhennan cafe owner, and more of the interior

that Soi 6 market alley shop (note the alley has a different name from the North side)

what that market alley looks like

Classics:

Tea Dee (Maps link):  way out beside the Ju Jen shop in the Thanya Park mall there is a store that has long been a favorite among locals, which specializes in in-house sheng pu'er versions, and probably carries some factory versions too.  I've not been there in forever, since they moved from another nearby mall space, but given how they are viewed by others it seems to represent a standard option.  I've never been into the $1 / gram standard gushu sheng range, since that's not within my budget, but this might be the best place to buy that kind of thing in Bangkok.

This raises the question of how many other mall shops like here and Ju Jen are out there.  Very few others, I think.  There are tea shops, or booths selling limited range, but nothing I know of that specialty tea enthusiasts would seek out.  There had been a main one in the Paragon Mall, with a reputation for selling decent tea on the expensive side, but that's gone, and there's only a second branch somewhere else, as far as I know.  Royal Project shops exemplify what other mall-shop exceptions are like.

Royal Project stores (Maps link of one example): some of the oolong from Royal Project stores isn't bad; that's what introduced me to loose tea a dozen or more years ago here.  They're around, in malls and such, or there is one at the airport (Suvarnibhumi).  

For tea enthusiasts into above average quality Taiwanese rolled oolongs the quality probably just isn't good enough, but for buying some inexpensive gifts for people not yet into tea back home this may be perfect, or people would see "daily drinker" range in different ways.  They might carry an extra black or green tea but quality is kind of so-so, so sticking to the oolongs might be better.  Value is good for them, quality in relation to cost.  Tea selection is quite limited but dried fruit and whatever else is sold in those shops might be of interest.  Some sell boxes of plain tisanes presented as tea bag versions, which I buy once in awhile.

Double Dogs (Maps link): the main Chinatown (Yaowarat road) traditional Chinese cafe, also selling some cakes and loose teas.  It's really small; you might go in expecting that it may or may not work out for seating availability, or call ahead to reserve a space if it means a lot to you and you are on a tight schedule (which is no way to experience a Chinatown, but it can come up).  That Soi 7 market alley is right beside Double Dogs, and a wholesale area selling all sorts of random goods is all located on the South side of Yaowarat near here.  The main evening street food vending options are in the same area, as a few herb shops are, which is a good place to stock up on an extra kilogram of chrysanthemum, if one is into that.

this is actually half the cafe (credit a FB page photo)

Monsoon (Asok branch Maps link): local branches of a vendor based out of Chiang Mai.  Most of their selection is flavored teas, presented as wild-origin source material (which they are, but what that means probably isn't completely obvious).  For people open to that range or curious about that theme it's definitely worth checking out.  

There had been a small stall sort of outlet in one of the malls at Phrom Pong, I think in Em Quartier, but the main branch is at Asok, way back in the system of sois (side streets), behind the parts of that area that everyone knows about.  That shop isn't right beside the red-light "Soi Cowboy" area, but not far (but it's safe anywhere in Bangkok, even after dark; no need to worry).  They had sold kombucha at a small cafe type section; that might be nice.  

If value is a main concern then Chinatown shops are a better option; teas are priced at above average market rates, for what they are.  The teas are unique enough that there really is no market rate, so they wouldn't turn up in Chinatown, but you get the idea, you can find equivalent quality teas for less elsewhere, just not the same styles.  There is less to sort out than at Chinatown too; even though the range is mostly flavored blends it's all consistent, where in Chinatown you really don't want to drink any of the below average quality versions, related to it being bad and potential risk of contaminants exposure.

Monsoon holds interesting informative events, like this one on biodiversity research

Dayi / Taetea shops:  the two I've visited in town both closed but there are at least a couple of others.  Google search would let you know where; I don't know, and only mention them here for completeness.  That's the name of one of the three main Chinese factory producers of sheng and shu pu'er, for people not already clear on that.  I don't think seeking out these shops would make sense for buying oolong, black, or green teas, but I did buy two nice pressed white tea cakes in one, shou mei and gong mei.

Grocery stores:  of course this doesn't work, but there must be something to add about this.  I bought a Dayi Jia Ji sheng pu'er tuocha in a specialty grocery store once; exceptions come up.  Of course there are other places to buy those (Sen Xing Fa sells them, from the rest of this list, and Yunnan Sourcing or King Tea Mall are good sources online).  The Thai oolongs grocery stores sell are typically not above average, and average quality range here isn't so great.  

In China it is possible to buy so-so factory sheng pu'er in grocery stores; I just tried part of a cake that's running low I bought in Shenzhen on a visit back in 2019, which was decent--relatively speaking--in spite of selling for next to nothing, around $10 per cake.  Here it's better to avoid all of it, and sheng wouldn't turn up anyway (that one time was the only time I've seen it, except for sheng pu'er tea bags, which I'm not going to dignify with discussion here).  You might be curious about what an inexpensive box of loose Thai oolong might be like, Shui Xian made in more of a Wuyishan style, but it would almost always be pretty bad.  It's better to buy such a thing at shops like Jip Eu or K. Mui Kee Tea.

New options / different themes:

Koto Tea Space (Maps link):  I've never been to this place, but a friend runs it, so it must be nice (and the local buzz is positive too).  It's themed around Japanese tea experience, with emphasis on the aesthetic side, two parts of tea experience I generally try to avoid.  A setting looking nice is fine, some wood paneling, plants, or a water feature, but once there is too much of an elaborate decoration theme or people are wearing robes I'm out.

visiting would be worth it to meet Pop, the owner (photo credit their FB page, from 2021)

Peace Oriental (Maps link to one branch):  I think an earlier attempt at making a theme like that at Koto Tea Space didn't work for Peace Oriental, and they're on to being more of a standard cafe now, selling blended flavored iced teas and such, as well as more traditional versions.  It could still be interesting, if your path takes you near a branch.  I might've only visited one branch of this chain one time; again I'm just not that into cafes.  If you spend $10 on a decent pot of tea you might as well add 10 more and buy a decent tuocha's worth, or a passable 100 or 200 gram amount.  

Everything I'm saying here is a biased and one-sided take, of course.  I'm not into style as a main attraction in tea shops, and marketing spin pushing pricing for good basic version options to double what they sell for elsewhere.  Some people value style, and a "curation" function can seem to add value, beyond simple tea quality in relation to price.

their older theme was all white space; on to an updated natural materials look

the outlet I visited, which may be closed now

Ong Yong Choon (that is a Maps link) / other local shops:  there are countless places selling all sorts of variations of teas in Bangkok, hundreds if you count bubble tea and matcha outlets, or maybe even thousands.  This place I've named is an old-style tea shop near Wat Pho (a main temple), or more specifically beside the flower market beside Wat Pho.  

More conventional examples would be new forms of cafes, which keep opening and closing every year.  I've heard of 3 or 4 new versions this year but I'm only mentioning places I've not been to here when it makes sense to, when I've heard enough about them to reliably pass on what they are probably like.

Ong Yong Choon, the owners (who are so nice, as I keep saying about everyone)

Traditional shops / Cha Tra Meu:  I've still not mentioned anything about the orange flavored Thai tea, or the versions that look like teh tarik in Malaysia (pulled tea, with added reference to pouring it back and forth), often brewed in what looks like a small wind sock.  Both are around, they're just different kinds of things than specialty loose tea.  If you are in a really old-style restaurant or food court and see that old form of brewing you should try it out, but it's just inexpensive black tea with sweetened condensed milk.

The orange flavored version is something else.  Ordinarily I don't like artificially flavored teas, and it definitely is that, but that is tasty.  There's a shop selling it--Cha Tra Meu, the main one--in the building where I work, and I've never bought a take-out or loose tea version there.  It's not taste preference that stops me from having it; I avoid eating processed sugar and artificially flavored foods.  For exceptions I'll eat donuts and ice cream sometimes, but not drinks that are full of sugar.  For people who are more open to that buying a tin of the flavored loose black tea might be good.  Dairy Queen here did a Thai tea flavor promotion at one point and it's for best for my health that was temporary; it was too good.

In talking to someone recently about why it seems like there are gaps in what is sold in shops here a few factors seem to combine.  Tea awareness and demand is limited, and Chinatown shops already cover that for people who have been into tea for awhile.  Online options increase, sales through Facebook pages, and large Thai tea interest groups / marketplaces are crowded with people selling lots of things (this is only one example).  

Some of those group posts would just be reselling the best of what is sold by small producers through Facebook pages, teas you could buy directly for less, and a lot of the rest would be Taobao or Alibaba purchases, a lot of which wouldn't be good tea, or selling at a good value.  Over time people would probably sort out which individuals are most reliable, and turn-over would weed out some of the least reliable options.  There are limited Western-facing online sales options; let's consider those.

Online:

Unfortunately the best Thai sheng is only available online, as far as I know.  I guess that's a good thing for people reading this who would never make it to Bangkok?  Wawee Tea is a good starting point, a main traditional producer, and Ming Dee is perhaps the other main producer option.  Those kinds of producers would have Facebook pages, or there are lots of online shops in the two main online sales platforms here, Shoppee and Lazada.  I'll skip looking up links here; people can Google search or look up blog posts here that contain those names.  

I didn't really intend for this section to mostly be about Thai sheng; it just worked out that way.  At least some of these outlet sell teas way beyond that range, even though I'm discussing sheng most here, and not the oolongs or black teas as much.  It's what I buy most of and drink myself.

Tea Side is the main Western-facing website outlet.  Value isn't great through them, with decent sheng selling for between 50 cents and $1 per gram, when you can find equivalent versions for far less if you put more effort into it.  For people who don't see spending $100 to 200 as much expense for a tea order, and don't care what that works out to in relation to $ / gram, then they're a great option.  

Their products are consistently good.  Sheng options are fine, or black teas are good, Dian Hong style versions from Thailand.  Aged tea options are also good, but that $200 won't go very far buying from that range.  Their small-batch shu versions are good, and a gui fei bug-bitten rolled oolong was nice in the past.

Let's make that summary more specific related to buying a young version of Thai sheng; what if you wanted to buy a moderate cost, most recent Thai sheng version they sell, how would that go?  There are two identically priced at the lowest cost, $70 for 200 gram cakes, both from 2018, this one a more bitter version.  It's not 50 cents a gram, but that is $130+ for a standard cake, nearly double in-house boutique style productions by other vendors, or 1 1/2 times the higher end of that range.  At that pricing you have a lot of options.  A 2021 version sells for $85 for 200 grams; close enough to that 50 cents a gram level.  It's just not the kind of outlet option where you find this year's tea selling at all, never mind related to style and pricing variations.

Rishi--the US wholesale vendor--sells cakes from different countries, including Thailand; that would be another decent option.  There must be other Western vendors selling Thai sheng, I'm just not familiar with any.  

Let's dig a little deeper; how good would quality and value be?  This is a 2022 Wawee origin sheng "pu'er" version, selling for $45 for 200 grams.  I've bought tea similar to this over the past two years, for slightly less, but $80-some for a standard cake amount is definitely still fair, depending on aspect range and quality.  They carry some Laos teas too; for people who aren't concerned about the $80 or so per cake price range I expect those would be interesting in character, and safe bets for quality level.

I can't say that their teas are definitely as good as Tea Side's, because that's too much generalization, but it's my guess that it comes down to preference instead of quality, and some people might like them more.  It can be natural to assume that pricing must correspond to quality level but varying outlets set pricing differently, and carry different options, and equating cost with probable quality level doesn't work.

Moychay Thai forest tea initiative:  I've written about trying a cake from Moychay's partnership operation in Thailand, with tea versions selling through their Netherlands outlet.  It's tempting to try to describe their teas in relation to what Rishi or Tea Side is likely selling, or Wawee Tea and Ming Dee versions, but it can introduce a lot of error to generalize across a lot of versions, when I've only tried one (or two?; maybe a loose version as well).  The quality of what I tried was quite good, the material was obviously high in potential, and while the style wasn't a complete match for Yunnan versions I liked it.

That theme applies to a lot of South East Asian sheng I've tried; often it's not produced in exactly the same style as Yunnan versions, often varying in ways that I like just as much.  Oxidation level can creep up a bit, maybe due to not rushing the processing steps to offset that, or maybe it's that hotter and more humid local conditions let the tea transition faster during the limited processing time.  Or maybe heating step, the sha qing / kill-green / pan frying step, is slightly different.  Teas can end up trading out some bitterness, astringency, and aging potential for extra sweetness, initial complex flavors, and approachability.  For a version that you plan to drink within 2 to 3 years that can actually be positive; for long-term aging it's not favorable at all.  

It's possible that Tea Side filters what they sell to match Yunnan styles better, so their higher pricing level could be justified, for some.  Or maybe they just charge more; I'm not implying that aging potential / style issue maps out like that across most versions, related to Tea Side matching Yunnan style and Moychay being more like local Thai versions, although it matches my past experiences.

I re-tried a favorite Thai sheng from 2022 just this week--from a local source that's hard to access, not one described here--and it was much different and just as pleasant as last year, not seeming to show great potential for 15-20 year aging, but to me a fantastic tea for drinking right now.  It was not just on par with but slightly better than what I've sampled from all of these other producers (per my preference; that's not intended as an objective judgment).

In terms of positive experience and quality that Moychay tea I tried was good; I think it would also hold its own in the now-standard $80 per standard size cake range, a pricing that's a bit high for me to buy or drink a lot of, even though it's quite standard.  

This autumn version from them sells for 13 Euro ($14--what's up with the exchange rate?), for a 200 gram cake, so that's still very favorable pricing.  Autumn versions give up a little intensity and tend to cost less but that's still a great deal.  They list that one as "green tea," which I think is a translation issue, but it really could be pressed green tea, even though that existing--a pressed cake of green tea--would be stranger than getting a translation wrong.  

This other cake sold as sheng is 239 Euros for a standard size cake (on towards $250).  So it goes with buying pu'er; you can accept what someone says online as input but you never really know until you're tasting the tea, especially if the person offering input hasn't tried a specific version.  Style variations throw off the "good / not good" objective judgments; my absolute favorite Thai sheng not all other pu'er drinkers would even like.  

To complicate things further you can try 2 or 3 versions from a producer and think that those must map to all that they sell, good or bad, but that can vary a lot too.  Buying what they price the highest probably bumps the chances that you'll try their best versions, but even that might not be consistent.  Demand for a type shifts pricing just as much as quality, and many vendors just apply a standard mark-up, so if they get a good or bad deal on material / products your cost can vary by that factor more than quality level.  The smaller the vendor and less direct their source connection the more that applies, but in general pricing mark-up is a commercial function instead of relating to a quality judgement; it can vary a lot.

2017 Wawee Tea Thai sheng compared with 2016 Bada

 

2017 Wawee Tea sheng left, in all photos, Chawang Shop 2016 Bada right

First off, why this comparison?  At first I was going to just try the Thai version, seemingly an older version related to a new one I've just reviewed, but then it seemed likely I'd have a lot more to say about how I couldn't completely judge potential for a version in the middle of fermentation transition, 6 years old, but probably fully changed over at 15 (given that it's warm and humid in Thailand).  I could still judge the pleasantness right now, and it would be fine in relation to that, but in a sense the potential further change could seem the main story.

Then I was going to just drink a normal tea I already had; my energy level can feel too low for the extra hour of tasting and writing on the weekend, which can easily stretch into two hours.  In another post I'd mentioned that I was going to try to clear through samples and extra bits of tea, last pieces of sheng cakes, so I picked one out for that, a 2016 Bada version from Chawang Shop.  Then it occurred to me that it could be interesting comparing them, guessing about transition process completeness and further potential at the same time.

I've already reviewed a 2014 Wawee Tea Thai sheng in this review post (with more on their teas on their website, or background in a FB page).  This one is a "Pitakvavee series" version (versus the earlier a "Thai hero" series), a spring 2017 tea, identified as gushu material.  To be clear they sent this to try along with the 2023 version that I ordered (many thanks for that!).  I bought two 200 gram cakes of that new sheng, to have a standard amount to drink.

There must be some general Bada area character to consider, then also whether that matched it or not, and more to cover about how good the tea was originally.  Referring back to the earlier related review would only be so helpful; what did I know of judging sheng versions four years ago when I bought this (or now, really).  There were some Steepster impressions of it, since Steepster was active back then.  It wasn't expensive, for what that is worth, but pricing doesn't always tie directly to quality level.

I can add that it has spent the last years since that review time in quite warm and humid conditions, starting off being stored dry in Kunming, so I suppose that's a non-optimum storage input pattern, moving from dry early on to hot and wet.  I doubt there will be much of a clear story to tell here anyway, but at least it can work around saying that this Thai tea is interesting but that another half dozen years would tell more of its story.  Spoiler:  that's more or less the main conclusion.

I would guess that the Thai version will still be intense, losing bitterness, but that aspect won't be gone, with floral range flavor aspects switching over, with the warm tones not as established as they would be later.  So in-between.  

The last Chawang Shop cake I finished, from the same time period, but from Mengsong, had a bit of wood flavor character developing, which I took to not be ideal.  I don't know what that means though, what inputs lead to that, and if it really is always negative or not.  I've tried versions of moderate quality sheng that transition to taste quite woody after 15 years or so, and those tend to lose a lot of body feel and intensity too, along with flavor complexity, so they move on to warm tones but not a lot of other range that works well as a set.  We'll see.

Review:

It's interesting how much darker the Bada version is.  I'm not carefully storing these teas in terms of controlling conditions; they stay in one of three storage boxes that all get opened way too frequently.  It's hot and humid here, about 70% humidity a lot of the time, more like 80% lately during the rainy season, and never below 60 in the drier times.  This was stored in a thin ziplock style bag to offset the impact of opening and closing that box so much, too much air contact, but it surely still had too much exposure to air.

Wawee Tea 2017 sheng:   too light to judge; I skipped using a rinse, and that's how that tends to go.  Warm tones are pleasant; this has shifted over quite a bit to that range.  It had to be stored in Thailand, but there is plenty of local variation possible related to being in a hilly area further North; it had to be cooler and probably slightly drier than in Bangkok.

Bada 2016:  this is better than I expected; warm tones move towards a nice aromatic spice range.  Fermentation is much more progressed than for the other, probably related as much or more to conditions as that extra year.  Let's do the flavor list part next round.

Wawee, second infusion:  interesting!  There is a lot going on in this experience, and in a sense it's not all an integrated set, since it does taste like it's in the middle of transitioning from one thing to another.  Floral range has mostly shifted to other warmer tones; it's not even expressing much for warmer tone floral range.  Heavy and warm mineral is a strong base, and the rest is as close to woody as anything else.  It covers some spice range too, just not much dried fruit, at this point.  The feel makes it more balanced and appealing; it has good richness and structure.  Bitterness has largely transitioned but not completely.

Bada:  this still includes some green wood flavor, which I would expect to keep transitioning, but a lot of the range has shifted to warmer spice.  A very different warm mineral tone stands out, slightly warmer, and it's paired with a different range of mouthfeel.  The other tea feels softer, a bit "rounder," and this includes a dry feel that extends to the edges of your mouth, especially the rear-middle edges of your tongue.  That's odd, given that it's seeming a good bit more fermented, that it includes a little more of that young-range challenging structure.  It's related to astringency, but not so similar to young sheng astringency.

Wawee, third infusion:  I'm feeling these teas a bit already; odd for not being very far through yet.  It's strange how different the leaf color is, how this Thai version isn't so different than a young tea, and the other is pretty far along for turning brown.  They're both about half-way through full fermentation, with this one slightly behind.  This Wawee tea is maocha, never pressed, which I would expect to cause it to transition faster, but didn't seem to.

The range of aspects seems to integrate better this round; the experience is pleasant.  I'm really not getting far with unpacking warm tones, splitting apart what I mean by that.  Warm base mineral is one part, and the more aromatic range is perhaps closer to cedar wood than anything else.  There might be a tipping point past which warmer tones dominate, and this might be not quite there yet.  Then people also speak of a quiet "teen years" effect, when the change-over is at an awkward stage, and the tea seems quieter or less intense than it will earlier or later.  I would guess they typically mean a range even after lighter tones give way to heavier ones.

Bada:  flavors are definitely warmer for this tea, but then it gets complicated how feel compares.  There is still a trace more bitterness, even for being further transitioned, and a hint of dryness that goes along with the astringency structure.  I suppose I like this better for the fermentation level being that much further on; the character is more interesting.  Maybe in a sense both of these need another 6 or 7 years to show what they might become, and unless someone could really judge interim period patterns it wouldn't help trying them like this to indicate what that would be like.

But then of course it's still possible to compare them to preference at present; anyone could do that, with any degree of prior exposure, or none.  In re-trying the Thai version it's interesting how a warm mineral tone stands out, along the lines of how gun metal smells (which I guess would also relate to preservative oil, but that complicates things).  This other version includes warm mineral tone, more like slickrock, but that seeming to couple with a slightly edgier and drier astringency changes the experience.

Wawee 4:  I'll try a faster brewed round; why not?  This is evolving positively; a light note hints a little towards citrus.  Even brewed light a rich and silky feel stands out.  Earlier on that wood tone included a almost musty range, like balsa wood, which I described as more like cedar in overall effect, and that has evolved to seem a little cleaner and brighter.  This is pleasant, but I get it why it's normal to drink either well-aged sheng, at 15 years or more, or within the first 3 or 4 years, when that limited transition suits a certain starting point.

Bada:  there seems to be a flavor description I'm missing here, or maybe a pair or range.  It would seem to relate to unfamiliar spice range, one of the many inputs that make up an intriguing and powerful impression when you walk by a Chinatown spice shop.  I guess it could be as straightforward as including camphor?

As a set of inputs it might be a warm, mineral intensive tone paired with a unique dried fruit range, the latter maybe not far off the dried bael fruit Thais drink as a tisane.  This might taste like an age-transitioned spice input, so in the range of something I'm unfamiliar with that has been transitioned by hanging around for quite awhile.  Camphor does seem to be a part of that, but only one part.  

Wawee 5:  I'll go a little longer for infusion time but that should just draw out warmer tones and feel more.  And I suppose it does, trying it.  I've not mentioned sweetness level for these; it's not a gap, but it doesn't stand out either.  At this point for this version how well it all balances stands out, and a rich feel, with a slightly dry or musty flavor input offsetting that a little, just not as heavy as that had been.  It will surely be nicer when green wood tone changes over with a few more years of age, but it's not unpleasant to experience now.

Bada:  some of that feel structure and complex warm-tone flavor reminds me of how much more challenging sheng versions tend to come across in this aged range.  If this was a Dayi or Xiaguan version it would be hard to relate to at this age and fermentation level, very structured and intense, and I'd be flagging some of that feel and flavor range as indications that it might soften and develop, in another ten years.  This you can drink now.  Even though it wouldn't be in the most natural optimum yet in another couple of years slightly more warming and softening could make this even more pleasant, making it seem more integrated, as a 9 year old tea (or 9 1/2 maybe).

Later infusions:  I tried a few more rounds in the afternoon, after a long break.  Maybe the teas change a little with some rest but I think perspective can shift a little, mostly interpretation, just from the reset.

It's hard to pin down to a specific aspect but overall integration and balance of the Wawee tea is nice, tied to a mix of flavors and fullness of feel, but beyond all of it.  Depth is good, and there is a warm and sweet tone that grounds the rest and ties it together.  Bitterness has almost entirely evolved out of this tea, compared to any level that must have been present over the first 3 or 4 years, but a slight remnant remains.  A green flavor range tone also hangs in there; that must have linked to much more pronounced floral range earlier on, now hard to place.  It's pleasant, even though this isn't the most natural age and fermentation level range for drinking this particular tea.

Something along the lines of camphor does seem to be ramping up in this other version, and more than that deeper and warmer tones just start in to how wet aged teas come across.  It's like a wet slate / basement range flavor, evolving, but only there in a trace just yet.  It's interesting how one of these teas is hinting at what will come and the other still mostly vaguely referencing back to what it had changed from.  

It's also interesting how a full and rich but soft feel is present in the Thai version, which is far less fermented (relatively), with the Bada tea a bit more structured, and even a little dry.  Warm to actually dark-toned mineral stands out, tying to that feel, extending as the main aftertaste experience.  The corresponding range in the other is probably closer to green wood, and lighter mineral range, in the sense of a brighter tone (towards limestone versus slate) and in intensity.  Base mineral tones are only a minor contributing aspect in the Wawee Thai tea and a main part of the experience for the Bada version.

not a lot of color difference but the Wawee is lighter (left)

Conclusions:

Which is better, which has more aging potential?  Hard for me to say.  It's odd how both seemed to be in different places in a transition divide, with the Thai tea a bit prior to warming tones change-over and the Yunnan Bada version just after that main shift.

In many cases people criticize some sheng versions as not having great potential to age, and to some extent I think I can relate to what that aspect set seems like between new versions and those aged for only 2 or 3 years, but I tend to not drink that many teas at the midway point like this.  These teas must have had a good bit more intensity when younger, maybe stopping short of seeming challenging, even as 3 year old versions.  I first reviewed this Bada tea as a 3 year old version; it was ok to drink then.  It's possible that this Bada version has more potential to carry over intensity and complexity to a 15 year, relatively more complete aged form.  That isn't necessarily better, if the character of the other is lighter but still more pleasant, in that form.  

Some sheng just fades away, leaving behind the impression of full feel, with flavors largely evaporated, and I would guess neither of these would go there, but that's just a guess.  This Thai version may be light on intensity and complexity in another 8 years but it won't be completely faded, I don't think.  Some sheng versions can quiet down a lot within the first 7 or 8 years, especially if they start out sweet, floral or fruity, with some bitterness and feel structure, but in general quite approachable.  

The Thai sheng from Aphiwat may be a good example of this; it's still pleasant in a different way as a one year old version (the one from the year before, 2022, which of course isn't identical to this year's), but I'd expect within two more years, three in total, it would be as well to drink that tea.  The 2023 Wawee Tea sheng version is a little more challenging now, not as pleasant to experience new, with a good bit more feel structure (but not more bitterness; they might be more even there).  I would expect it to retain more intensity through this middle-age period range, even though I also think it will probably be great as a 2 to 4 year old version, and maybe even optimum then, although that depends on preference. 

I can kind of relate to some appeal of sheng versions in this middle of aging transition range but in general I wouldn't make it a point to drink sheng like this.  Maybe for people who are put off by the bitterness and intensity of young range it could make more sense.  Then if budget is no issue, and the richer and warmer toned flavors of aged sheng seems more appealing, moving on to drinking 15 year old versions would seem more natural.  Heavier basement sort of flavors might be off-putting, but there is plenty of range of storage input options beyond bone-dry Kunming storage, that preserves tea and can give it an odd slightly sour wood or cardboard flavor, and Bangkok or Malaysia environment storage that rapid ages them towards heavier flavors.

I've only mentioned it in passing but these are mild teas compared to a lot of factory range, that need a dozen years of aging to be approachable at all, to soften a bit.  I wouldn't expect either to be overly intense with twice as long to age, 7 more years, but complexity and character might still be quite nice.  Bangkok storage is probably better for teas that are less refined and subtle though, better for moving a challenging tea that really typically needs 30 years to fully transition to already ok to drink under 20.

Wawee Tea 2023 gushu Thai sheng

 

An earlier version related to this has been one of my favorites, and this might be as well.  It's from Wawee Tea (also here or here), so from Wawee, the main sheng production area outside of Chiang Rai.  I won't be sharing a lot of backstory here; it's presented as Thai sheng (pu'er-style tea) from old plant material.  Those links tell more of their story.

I loved the version last year for matching my own preference so closely.  The same is true of Aphiwat's version I've been discussing, and one from Moychay wasn't so different.  I think from repeatedly trying sheng versions from Thailand, Myanmar, Laos, and Vietnam the general style range has evolved to become my main tea preference, with the narrower set of aspects in those few the closest match.  

I expect this will be a little closer to conventional Yunnan versions than the one from Aphiwat was, but that material seemed to be quite good quality, so maybe not better in that regard.  His tea had an unusual plant or flower stem edge to it, a flavor that didn't pair with an astringency aspect as much as I would've expected, since the feel was rich but not rough or structured.  It also had amazing intensity, complexity, durability, and sweetness, along with substantial bitterness.  It's too hard to explain here but I don't think it's a type that's well-suited for aging, that it's perhaps as positive as it would ever be this year or next.  Since it's such a personal favorite while still young that's not as much of a limitation.

This will be related in flavor range, I expect, but without as much of that one unusual edge.  I would expect it to include less fruit range and more floral tones, based on last year's version, with bitterness level not so different, and feel different but in a way that's not simple to describe, more structured, fuller in feel.  Never mind all that; this will be about this tea, not comparison to others, but if it helps define an aspect or transition expectation I'll get into that.  

As to what comes before the brewed tea experience the appearance is just beautiful, as in the photos, and the smell is sweet, complex, fragrant, and floral.  This is pressed a bit tight; that adds a little challenge in separating out a bit to brew, more care in not breaking up leaves.  With a now more conventional loose pressing you can just push in the pick or knife from any direction and flake off a chunk of about the size you want.  It'll slow aging transition slightly too, but otherwise it makes no difference.  It's still much easier to separate off the tea than for older style factory cakes, more broken material pressed just as hard, which are looser and easier to access than iron cake versions, or typical tuochas. 

I'm trying this on day 4 out of 5 of a fast; I've not eaten in 3 1/2 days.  That won't change much.  It's generally better not to drink most of a liter of sheng on a completely empty stomach but it'll be alright.  I drank some salt water earlier, a sodium and potassium mix, which isn't nearly as good a stomach buffer as toast or cereal, but it will have to do.

Review:  

First infusion:  I let this brew about 15 seconds because I skipped a rinse step; that's a judgement call.  It would've infused better with a rinse, and I'd skip saying "this is still a bit light," but it is still throwing out the tea.  This will brew about 15 infusions, most likely, a half dozen more than I'll drink in a sitting, so that would've made sense.  It's still a bit light; I gave half to a nearby plant to continue on making better notes.  Of course it's as I already described it, sweet, floral, complex, seemingly well balanced.

Second infusion:  that's it!  Sweetness and flavor intensity pick way up; I can start brewing this faster and lighter.  A honey-like flavor note stands out; it's always nice when it works out like that.  There is good warmth to these flavor tones for being so young.  I would generally expect it to be a little more oxidized than is typical in that case, implied by the mix of colors in the dried leaves.  The darker yellow brewed liquid and mix of brown on the wet leaves would also more or less confirm that.  For a version intended for long aging that's probably more negative than positive, but if someone plans to drink this within the first 2 or 3 years it can be more positive than negative.  

The character right now is fantastic; no complaints.  Then it's complicated and hard to sort out how a mix of varying extra oxidation level works out, if this really will age well, even long term, because many of the leaves are as green as could be. 

Bitterness level is still considerable, but still in the middle of the scale in relation to typical Menghai versions.  Floral range seems to stand out, but there is plenty more going on with this.  The warm honey tone ties to mineral tones across a lighter and heavier scale, and to other warm flavor range that could be towards spice.  To me the main flavor range, which is complex, and hard to break apart, combines both floral and fruit range.  

It's almost a bit citrusy, or actually is, not in one distinct form (lemon, orange, tangerine), but I would expect that to evolve and seem to link to different range across infusions.  This is a lot like the version I really loved earlier this year (last year's tea, and I think most of a year of aging transition amounted to a lot more than it would've in a cooler and drier place, when I tried it in February or so).

I suspect that a lot of South East Asian teas are slightly more oxidized than Yunnan versions not just because they don't process them quickly enough, but because it's pretty warm and humid across a lot of the entire region (not so much at elevation in northern Laos and Vietnam, but maybe even there in comparison with a lot of Yunnan).  Everything changes quickly as a result; cereal can get stale still in the factory sealed packaging, and leaving partly brewed tea out overnight doesn't go as well as elsewhere.  A picked fresh leaf would oxidize a little pretty fast.

third infusion:  it's so good!  That one flavor input, like honey, is probably closer to how beeswax smells, warm, rich, and sweet.  A citrus edge warms up a little too, with other range I interpret as floral just as strong or stronger.  Feel and aftertaste work together to support a more complex experience, in this case in a very positive form.  It's rich and full, with a good bit of structure, and the bitter edge carries over to sweetness plus the other flavors trailing in aftertaste.  Sometimes that effect can be even stronger; there is plenty of flavor experience a minute after drinking this tea, but for some versions it really goes on and on, sometimes seemingly even stronger than the actual flavor.

I'm saying that the citrus is warm in tone, but this might cover both a warmer tangerine range and lighter lemon input.  It makes it come across as complex and satisfying, since that's only part of the range.  

The version from Aphiwat extended to ripe and sweet pineapple, related to a fresh fruit version that wouldn't be familiar to most people in the US.  Even if you try an exported fresh pineapple most plant types are sweet, citrusy, and intense but a little harsh, and other types here express a much warmer tone.  That's like a branded version "Maui Gold," I guess (which sounds like a weed strain).  Anyway this is different, more broad range citrus, honey and beeswax, and floral tones.  A vegetal input is harder to place, maybe like a bit of green wood, not dominant, but there in the mix.

fourth infusion:  I should've backed off my normal 8 gram or so proportion; without food in my stomach I might be able to drink a couple more rounds but will only get halfway through this infusion cycle, at best.  This tea will be great in the afternoon but for doing a relaxed day while fasting I don't need to get blasted on caffeine.  I have some errands to run; it'll help with that.

Intensity stands out in this experience (with the flavor set not transitioning quickly, so I won't add much about that).  I think that's part of what I like about sheng, what I'm acclimated to.  Probably if I would "get" the cha qi / body feel part more that would be intense too.  When fasting energy levels tend to go all over the place, and sitting in a dark room is enough to bring on a crash, while doing something outside can trigger the opposite, great physical and mental energy and clarity.

Finishing this cup is probably all I'll have for now.  My stomach still feels ok but the continual deep emptiness I've felt for days has shifted in form, warning me not to keep going.  I'm sweating in a different way.  I bet a couple of interesting late transitions would tell more of the story of this tea; maybe I can make notes over the next few hours as I get to those.

re-tasting two days later (I didn't make more notes):  this won't be round by round, but I will add some thoughts, about re-trying the tea when I'm back out of fasting (I finished 5 full days last evening; that went ok).  No change related to that factor, that I could tell.

I like the tea, in a style closer to conventional Yunnan versions than Aphiwat's.  Bitterness isn't so different, but feel might have just a little more feel structure, and give up a little for sweetness level.  Lighter mineral tones are stronger, which together with the feel makes it come across as a little drier.  It seems like unusual flavor range in Aphiwat's version is replaced by a more standard floral range in this.  

This tea might be better to drink a year or two later, to rest and settle a bit, and let the rough edges wear off, and flavor deepen.  I didn't buy that earler Wawee Tea sheng version this year until late January / early Feb. or so, coming up on a year after production, which is only three months from now, but drank more in March and April.  This character seems ok for longer aging too, drinking this as a 15 year old version, but I don't think Aphiwat's tea would have great potential for that kind of longevity.

They sent me some maocha from 2017, so 6 1/2 year old tea, and of course I can't assume that the starting point was quite similar, but it will inform part of how this might age.

Flavor list interpretation would always vary a good bit, so the comprehensive, round by round flavors list--mostly missing here--might not be so meaningful anyway.  To help make that point here are tasting notes from that friend that visited here, John Lim, for Aphiwat's sheng, which I've described as floral with some fruit, and a plant stem related bitterness:

Gushu material, viscous and mellow.

I get ginger , lemongrass and wildflowers. Relatively sweet as well.

Subsequent brews bring out its bitter nature as well.

This tea feels like life in the mountains. Filled with herbs, grass and wildflowers. Bitter sweet life experiences.

More poetic than my writing; nice!  Lemongrass makes sense, which I've interpreted differently, as citrus range or pineapple.  Floral we both agreed on (I just didn't narrow it further), and the plant-stem, slightly edgy input could be an interpretation of bitterness overlapping with herbal nature.  Herbs tend to not taste like plant stem, usually covering a warmer range, but I've described that warm rich tone as relating to honey, if I remember right, or maybe that was beeswax.  It seems to be about breaking down a very complex and broad range of flavors into sets that match foods, floral, or vegetal experiences, which themselves are often not one dimensional, so sort of equivalent sets can vary a lot.

Later I tried Aphiwat's tea brewed Western style and it did taste a lot more like ginger and lemongrass; it's odd how combining what would be a lot of Gongfu infusion range together can change things.  Or maybe it was all related to suggestion, expecting that, then noticing it?

Also if you brew any tea much lighter or stronger it will emphasize a different range, related to flavor and other aspects.  Judging from the look of John's brewing--a photo--he used about half the proportion of tea leaf, a more conservative and sensible 4 or 5 grams per 100 ml instead of 8 or so, which would make it much easier to dial in lighter infusions, probably using longer infusion times.

I've just screwed up brewing this tea in a way that highlights that, writing these second trial notes.  While typing I let a round brew too long (nearly 30 seconds?), and then will often brew a flash-infused round to mix with that, instead of diluting tea with water.  Tasting the stronger in comparison with the fast-brewed round they're completely different, and not just in terms of intensity, also differing flavor aspects come through.  The light one is too wispy to make it out clearly, but just a touch stronger would make the point better.  Mixing the two rounds lands closer to an optimum, in a form that's far different than both tried separately. 

Sweetness has been picking up in this tea, and bitterness easing off; this is what I really valued in the other version last year (this overall experience, not that particular transition pattern).  Still, if this rests for 6 more months--or a year or two--it will be that bit more approachable, requiring less dialing in for infusion process.  

I have a few cakes now around 4 years old that are coming out the other side of that somewhat young but more settled range, not getting better every year now, fading some but well short of the broader character transition onto being aged.  Essentially all of those I don't own enough of to make waiting out another decade of transition such an attractive prospect.  I'll probably work on finishing most of them, leaving only tea I bought enough extra to age-transition around to wait out that longer cycle.  I can't finish all the half-consumed cakes I own now in a few months, or even half a year; I mean I'll work towards that.

One last point comes to mind, that I've tried 10 year old dry stored teas that are less fermentation transitioned than teas tend to be here after 3 years.  All of these times and stages I'm citing depend on the particular storage input, in addition to the tea character starting point, which I did say a little about.

Is this tea as good as Aphiwat's, or better or worse?  Just different.  Maybe I prefer his a little more, but I think the opposite would be true trying both as two year old versions, and they might be pretty even next year.  Related to long term aging potential I expect this has much more.  All that is just guesses though.  I've tried a somewhat aged version from them before (I should link to that, right?), and I'll post another within another week or so.

my company for tasting again. two marks on her are actually heart shaped.

so green in the rainy season

the other garden

impressive, but spanning across a walkway.  since it's a Buddhist household he gets to use the space.