Fasting introduction; how to water fast for multiple days

 

shou / shu pu'er is best for fasting, very mild on your stomach

This topic came up in online discussion recently, one that I've written quite a bit about here.  Earlier posts were never really designed as a short introduction and how-to, so to supplement that other discussion I'll write that out here.  To be clear I might have only fasted for a total of 60 days or so, so I'm definitely no expert, really only getting started myself.  

Before getting into that I think a couple of preliminary factors apply:

1.  Why fast?

That discussion was about potential anti-aging benefits, and I guess that is one reason.  I've almost entirely reversed my experience of greying hair, probably from this input, over the course of the first year, or maybe less.  Of course I didn't take up fasting for that reason.  It is claimed to reduce risk of severe illnesses, especially cancer and diabetes, and it was partly about that.  But who knows about that, really.

It's also supposed to improve energy level, especially metabolic flexibility, use of internal fat for metabolism.  And to improve mental clarity, which I guess could've happened, but it's hard to track.  And it's hard to separate causes; I've been exercising more than ever and eating a better diet since I started fasting, about 2 1/2 years ago.  

Of course people also fast for weight loss, but that often may not work as well as expected.  I think my metabolism may have slowed slightly, related to fasting practices, and I've gained a few pounds in that 2 1/2 years.  It could just be muscle mass gain; I am exercising quite a bit, running 20 miles per week most weeks, swimming more than ever, and dabbling in pickleball most recently.

a picture from my running route this week; it's nice here, in Honolulu

2.  Are there risks?

There are risks related to almost everything, including fasting.  In general it's accepted as very safe to fast, by fasting practitioners, but it's probably not safe to fast for 3 days or longer without supplementing electrolytes (sodium, potassium, and magnesium).  Low levels of those will cause low energy level, headaches, muscle cramps, brain fog, dizziness, and problems sleeping.  

How much to supplement, and in what form, is quite complicated.  You can't take pills to supplement salts (what those are), because the volume is too high, and any type of tablet form could become stuck to the lining of your stomach and cause a problem.  Magnesium might be the exception to that; you only need to supplement about 400 mg a day of that, versus 1 to 2 grams of the other two (with that requirement varying by different factors).

I definitely wouldn't recommend ramping up fasting practices quickly; it would be better to give your body time to adjust to the new experiences.  Some degree of hunger experience is normal, of course, and also disrupted energy level and mental focus.  After 2 or 3 trials of an extended fast all of that subsides quite a bit, and your mental clarity actually improves, energy level is quite consistent, even high.  Later hunger experience takes on a completely different form, much reduced in intensity.

This isn't a comprehensive listing of risks.  Specific pre-existing conditions could connect with more serious risks.  In case of any concerns consulting a doctor would be best.

General approach

There's not so much to it; you supplement electrolytes, drink plenty of water, and don't eat.  Most people will consume coffee, tea, or tisanes (herb teas), and some will drink diet sodas, while others won't.  Anything containing next to no calories won't break a fast.  Something like adding lemon slices to water might constitute a grey area; there is some calorie input in that, so most people who fast wouldn't do this, but it probably wouldn't change much.  Discussion of bone broth as an input comes up; if that contains any calories, as it generally would, that would break the fast.  I won't take vitamin C tablets that contain 10 calories, typically, but I suppose in a special case I might make an exception, if my throat felt a little sore, for example.

The concern isn't necessarily the idea of pure fasting, instead that ingesting any calories could trigger hunger response and digestive system activity, even when that's as limited as a cough drop.  It's as well to err on the lower side.  Some people would continue taking multi-vitamins, and other supplements, and some see it as a good time to take a break from those, as something along the line of a "detox," a concept typically not utilized by most in discussion of fasting, per my experience.

To begin fasting one might do well to employ a staged approach, trying out limited period eating first (within a 4 hour window, for example), then 24 hour fasts, on to two days, and so on.  There is no need to try 3 to 4 days on an early attempt.  I did, but I'm communicating this to help others learn from my mistakes.  Experience of hunger over the first 48 hours is severe, and it doesn't decrease much over the next 2 or 3 days.  Your body can adjust to use body fat as an effective energy source, which is very readily available, there just for that purpose, but you need to condition yourself to do so.

How to supplement electrolytes

This is a lot more complicated than it probably first seems.  A first inclination is to buy a pre-mixed, flavored, pre-measured packet, like LMNT products.  That could work.  Even using this approach someone should consult a decent reference about daily requirements in relation to fasting, because the included levels may not be optimized for that.  

This Reddit fasting sub wiki could be helpful.  I think that recommendation range is a bit high, extending up to 6 grams a day of sodium and 4.7 grams of potassium.  My guess is that few people could tolerate anywhere near those amounts.  Everyone would need to experiment to see what works best for them anyway, probably starting much lower in the range.  Their magnesium recommendation of 300-400 mg per day seems about right, and that may be somewhat universally applicable.  The low end of the range they recommend, on the order of a gram a day for both sodium and potassium, might work for a starting point.  Note that this would be the weight of the sodium and potassium in the related compounds, not the amount of total salt, including the "chloride" or whatever else.

It's possible to use very common, inexpensive sources for these salts.  Sodium can be consumed as table salt, or alternatively from baking soda.  Potassium is most typically encountered as potassium chloride, although there must be other forms.  Magnesium is more complicated, since many people report experiencing strong laxative effects from some forms.  It all requires more consideration and review than I'll try to support here.  In theory food-grade versions of epsom salt could supplement magnesium, but that form, magnesium sulfate, may really act as a stronger laxative than other compound versions.

That Reddit sub wiki recommends making up a "snake juice" daily supplementation mix and drinking that, along with extra water intake.  That does work, but drinking salt water can seem a bit rough, even diluted forms.  I've experimented with variations of that practice, and for me it works best to drink a good bit sort of as meals, 3 to 4 times a day.  For sure even sodium and potassium can act as a powerful laxative if you ingest too much too quickly; everyone taking up fasting has that experience at some point.  I can't stand the taste of baking soda in such a mix; that kind of factor enters in.  

Flavoring that mix might be promising, but many people adjust to tolerating it without that step.  There are two schools of thought about stevia and artificial sweetener input, which could relate to this.  One take is that it can cause an insulin release response, and the other is that it probably doesn't.  I don't drink much for sweetened tisanes or diet sodas but I've not noticed any related effects when I have, any problems of any kind.

Muscle cramps are one clear sign that your electrolyte balance is off, or trouble sleeping could be.  I sleep well while fasting, in general, but while exploring electrolyte supplementation I often didn't.

Drinking a lot of water seems crucial.  Some people report good results from drinking an awful lot, much more than 2 liters a day, so I suppose it comes down to personal judgment and experimentation.

Limitations of fasting, related practices

You can exercise while fasting; that seems to work.  I keep intensity moderate, and have evolved practice to use it as a good time for a break from running, but I do tend to walk a lot while I fast.  It keeps my energy level up, and helps me shift over to the experience ketosis faster over the first two days.

In fasting circles discussion the main restriction is on discussing that you are fasting, with anyone, under any circumstances.  I don't observe this, but I get it.  Some people are put off by it, and in one discussion account their company's HR department required them to stop the fast.  It's a judgment call.  People do have an aversion to practices that are completely unfamiliar to them, so in general discussing fasting isn't met with acceptance or interest.

I work well while fasting; the busier I stay the easier it is, and my productivity level can be even higher than when I'm not fasting.  The extra mental clarity, after you adjust to it, is really something to experience.  Flashes of creative insight and productivity can be quite an experience, surpassing what I almost ever go through at other times.

How long someone can or should fast is relatively open, or duration over time.  It depends on the purpose.  People trying to lose weight describe fasting for up to 3 weeks or so in that fasting group; beyond that many report relatively severe side effects, or some in even less time.  Most people there adopt periodic fasting instead, like rotating 3 or 4 day fasting and eating periods (rolling 48s or 72s).  

This is just my take, but it would intuitively seem necessary to eat a very nutritionally balanced diet while trying to pull that off, during the days that one eats, including plenty of protein, healthy fats, and micronutrients.  Additionally supplementation through multi-vitamins might make a lot of difference.  I wouldn't undertake such a practice myself, but then I've not been trying to lose weight.

I fast for 5 days at a time, generally 4 times per year.  For someone trying to maximize or optimize the types of inputs I'm going after, improved general health, and experience of autophagy (cellular recycling), that might be sufficient, or alternating 4 day fasts every other month could be a next further step.  Maybe someone could obtain most of the same benefits only fasting every 6 months, for that same period, 5 days.  To me it helps to not go too long in between fasts to retain the acclimation to the experience.

Other sub-themes

There are so many other related sub-themes one might venture into.  Is it dangerous to break a fast by eating a lot of sugar, or too much food?  Yes, but not so much for shorter fasts, for a period of a week or less.  You definitely should break a fast by eating healthy food though, no junk food, fast food, or high sugar content foods.  Even very high fiber it would be best to avoid, resetting your digestive system with easy to process, balanced foods.  I often broke fasts by eating a healthy version of a burger and fries, so it doesn't need to be so healthy, or as easy to digest as rice soup.  Then I tried it using McDonald's food once, when time was tight, and it took days for my digestive system to recover.  I guess I had that coming, for straying so far from common sense.

Drinking bone broth comes up as a topic, both in relation to a question about whether it would break a fast (it would; even minimal calorie input breaks a fast), and related to a potential input to re-start digestion.  If someone fasts for two weeks or longer you need to re-feed in a much more careful, controlled way, or it really can be quite dangerous.  In such a case using bone broth as a gradual resumption of digestion could work well, according to plenty of discussion input.  But this is a topic I have no first-hand experience with, to be clear; I've only ever fasted for five days at a time.

People ask about what can offset hunger when fasting, if drinking water or salt-water might work, or if there are other "hacks."  It can't hurt to drink a little water or salt-water, but in general the hunger experience is just part of it, kind of unavoidable.  It subsides after 2 or 3 trials, but in those first rounds it's rough.  Your stomach might rumble or produce some gas, and thoughts of food don't quiet down.  Again I think gradually building up to longer periods--5 days; not multi-week fasts--might help.  To me there is no reason why one would need to go further, why fasting for a week or longer would make sense.  Autophagy is said to peak at or after 48 hours, so a 5 day break goes plenty beyond that.

Even though I've said that I've not used fasting for weight loss I can pass on speculation about how that might work.  I reset my diet to be just a little cleaner and healthier after every fast, and I think an approach like this could work.  You could reset, re-start eating, at a slight calorie deficit, switching to 1800-2000 calories per day, if you normally eat more.  You might just reset your metabolism to be slower, instead of inducing gradual weight loss, so it might work as an option to try dropping to 1500 calories for a couple of extra weeks.  Given that fasting could cause micro-nutrient gaps restarting diet to be much healthier than normal would make sense, especially if the idea is to eat less.  If you wake up and eat a few frozen waffles with syrup and then skip eating until dinner your diet will be essentially empty.

One main theme that people lean into in a fasting sub (group) is drawing on support from others to continue a fast, often supported by using an app to track fasting time.  I don't do any of that.  I wouldn't need a timer counting down hours across a period of five days, because I already know exactly when I started.  It wouldn't help me to know that a few internet strangers were also not eating at the same time.  But I don't think that my own approach and preferences are necessarily better for any reason.

I'm also not careful about making sure that I fast for the entire 120 hours (5 days); I tend to start a fast after dinner the first day, and eat a normal dinner on the last, so I would really only fast for 4 days and 22 hours, or so.  These types of practices and preferences vary by person; I get it why crossing the actual finish line makes a lot of difference for most people, as a personal victory.  I would just as soon not re-start eating right before sleeping on that last day, so those kinds of concerns also factor in.

I've not mentioned when I would stop a fast, under what circumstances.  If I feel sick I might, unless symptoms are very mild.  If something feels off I would stop.  I've started to get sick before, the stage prior to the normal symptoms, sore throat and such, and resuming eating a day or two early has seemed to cut short that illness experience to follow.

The only times fasting has seemed to cause atypical health issues seemed to relate to getting electrolyte supplementation wrong, early on.  Experience of an irregular heartbeat is especially concerning; when that occurs I would stop the fast.  I have experienced plenty of hunger, of course, and energy level fluctuation and limited dizziness is normal.  If I feel off drinking a round of tisane (herb tea) seems to correct for that.  In some cases I may just be getting behind on hydration, so that it's really the water in the herb tea that's making the difference.  Drinking a bit of salt water, supplementing some extra sodium and potassium, will often make a difference.  I tend to take magnesium as tablets or capsules, a couple of times a day, so it's easy to keep up with that input.

Conclusions

I don't tend to recommend fasting often because it's just too extreme a practice for most people.  Maybe not as much in other cultures with that practice as a component, but most Thais and Americans certainly can't relate to it.  Since I don't really recommend it for weight loss, as covered here, it's hard to suggest with certainty that it's great for general health, even though that is my understanding.  I think my general mental clarity has improved since fasting, and again I lost the experience of greying hair, which may well connect with other forms of internal systems health that is less obvious.

It's a little harder than I've let on, especially for the first 2 or 3 fasts.  Hunger experience is profound.  I think someone could avoid most of that by using a staged, progressive approach, as I've described.  Now when fasting I can go hours of the day without thinking about food at all.  The sharp, intense experience of hunger no longer occurs, and a dull empty feeling is quite diminished.  It does add some tension, or light underlying mental stress, that never completely goes away.  I find this comparable to the off feeling related to being jet-lagged; something isn't completely normal, for days.  Over time being jet-lagged seems normal to you though, and so does fasting experience, to an extent.

Optimum timing would vary by schedule demands, and how someone relates to different phases of the experience.  To me the first day is very easy, the second sometimes relates to the most experience of hunger, and on day three adjustment of energy level can occur.  Then days 4 and 5 tend to be easier, but mental tension can increase a little.  It seemed to work out well to start fasting on a Wednesday, on work-weeks, because that day is the easiest, and weathering Friday was the main concern.  Then fasting on off-work days was easy, because I could add a nap to offset energy issues, or make the time go faster, and watch more video content to stay distracted.

I think in the future fasting will become much more accepted, in "the West," but not any time soon. We're just not there yet.  Isolated positive accounts will continue to enter into public awareness, but it will probably take years for this kind of experience to become more mainstream.  It's trending more lately, and plenty of health-guru types now recommend it, especially more science-oriented examples of that broad type, like Huberman and the like.  Even so I think people will take up easier versions of their trend-oriented recommendations first, like trying to get some sun exposure in the morning, or ice baths.  It's much easier to exercise than to fast, and a little of that exposure goes a long way for general health.

A pickleball lesson in a Honolulu park

 

Happy Easter!  Or at least it was when I started writing this.  We basically skipped Easter, getting no further than boiling some eggs that we've not colored yet, not even buying candy, with no religious theme component, and went out for a pickleball lesson this morning.  So this will mostly be about that.

It doesn't really explain it, but due to living in Thailand for most of the kids' childhood we were under the pressure of keeping up with two sets of holidays and cultural backgrounds, and the emphasis was on the Thai version.  Easter, Halloween, and to some extent even Christmas were a bit neglected.  We put in effort to make Christmas work out, but it was never the same as in a country that actually celebrates it.

A week or so ago we walked into a local pickleball event by chance here, in Honolulu, when we also tried to visit a job expo (the day after an initial successful visit to that, but we missed it the second time due to running late).  Ray, who runs a local pickleball business, and had a booth there, talked to us about helping Kalani with some introduction to the sport, which we just did.  He seemed so nice that was part of the appeal, along with exploring the sport.  He creates and sells related clothing, with a contact page here, or Insta here.

this one is cool, from Allgood Pickleball

Pickle-ball is nice.  It's like a cross between ping-pong and tennis, which makes it more active and athletic than ping-pong, but somehow maybe more approachable than badminton, which takes a lot of skill, just related to sending that shuttle-cock--or whatever it is--back over the net.  Kalani is a natural at badminton, because she played a decent amount when she was 4 or 5, back at St. Andrews school in Bangkok.

bright sun and an ocean view are so normal it can be hard to appreciate here

The feel is a little odd at first, that paddle not being a racquet.  The rules and form also take some getting used to, the scoring system, and zones where you need to hit it and play from.  Then after all that it's not so complicated or difficult.  The learning curve feels like you'd never get to the far end of it, like with tennis, but it also seems like you'd be into the middle of the range faster.  Even in the first hour we experienced a few decent volleys.

Ray is even nicer as an introductory coach than as a pickleball ambassador.  He's obviously been through that basic training form before, and it was easy for him to break down learning into a half dozen basic steps, and rush it so that after an hour we could actually play, using the standard form of the game, and the normal scoring.  He was great at getting each of us to learn the next thing we hadn't quite picked up yet, like where you really should be trying to stand, or how to judge letting a ball go out.  We didn't quite make it to the next level of skills, how to strike the ball better or play shots in different ways, but it was fun to play within the first hour.

My favorite racquet sport in the past was racquetball; I think I still like that more than pickleball.  But it requires a lot more athletic movement; it would be harder for a lot of people, and I suppose could even involve more injury risk.  It's faster, and requires more developed judgment and reaction about how the ball will come off different walls (it's a three dimensional form, played in an enclosed court, using the side walls and ceiling).  

I'm still more or less suggesting that people check out pickleball.  It's a lot more fun than tennis, which requires a fairly specific skill set, and seems more limited in form, as it plays out for people who aren't good at it.  You seem to walk after the balls a lot in tennis, as much as playing.  Pickleball is active enough that most people would benefit from the movement, even if someone who is relatively inactive and limited in movement range and flexibility might have problems at first.  The three of us didn't have any problems (Keoni, Kalani, and me), since we all played and learned together, versus only her being involved (which was more the initial plan).

Eye, my wife, would have loved it more than all the rest of us, but related to her having recurring problems with her knee it probably wouldn't go well just now.  She will play badminton at home with Kalani sometimes, but restricts that since just walking is already more or less her limit now.  She really should be swimming more; that could expand on her flexibility and range.  We keep talking about it but my 2 1/2 months will probably end here before we do much with getting her in the ocean.

I've been swimming 3 or 4 times a week, mostly out to a flag over 200 meters / yards out in the ocean, over by Diamondhead.  I see turtles almost every time, 4 to 6 of them yesterday (it's hard to know if the ones you see on the way back in to shore are the same ones).  Kalani played with a friend over in the main Waikiki beach section for awhile, so I swam again at what I think is called "Queen's beach," where I again saw one large sea turtle.  Yesterday I also saw a pufferfish in the first place; that's the first I remember seeing one.

I never take pictures of my favorite beach, since I'm there to swim.  it's near that volcano.

In general I think Thai resorts and vacation stays are on par with Hawaii, much superior in terms of value, and probably with an edge in local food offerings, but the ocean isn't as clear and full of sea life.  It's amazing here.  And there's great hiking right outside the city, that you could get to in a half an hour or so of bus ride.

Pickleball would work out anywhere; it's not necessarily related to how great it is here.  But the clean air and perfect weather doesn't hurt.  Keo and I will walk across the large park beside our house to see the other courts we could use today, since Kalani went to another beach with a school friend.  We're not craving playing again so soon but the walk will be nice.  Maybe that's the best part of living in Hawaii, that you aren't far from a beautiful environment, where it's nice to spend a little time and appreciate the surroundings.  You don't have to dig deep to find lots of activities range that helps optimize that experience, but there are lots of different options for that.

(As a slightly later edit) there are three courts in that second place, but two were in use for a very small competition event.  We could've just practiced hitting the ball in a tennis court, since they had many of those, but with the marked-out spaces differing we couldn't really play a normal version of pickleball in one.  So we skipped it, and made due with enjoying the walk through the park.

nature is nice here but my favorite part is always the company

always taking selfies

Anti-aging protocol

 

This is something I've ended up discussing a good bit over the past few years, one of many subjects I've become interested in.  My fasting practice ties to an interest in this, even though it started as a result of a chance contact saying that it would bring about spiritual practice benefits (and maybe it did?  hard to say, since that is hard to track).

I'm no expert on avoiding aging effects, but I am a good example of how it can work out.  I'm 56 now and could pass for 40, or maybe even 30-something, and I am active to say the least.  I've just switched my runs back to 12 km per outing, not quite at 3 times per week, but it will level off to at least 30 km / 20 miles per week.  It's hard to justify that I'm more active in general, or more flexible related to being open to new experiences and learning, the less explicit themes related to aging.  It seems so, to me, but it's hard to support that.

56 compared to 16, but I think his genetic potential might be even better

It's strange using yourself as an example like that.  The same general theme came up related to discussing intelligence on Quora before, a favorite topic earlier on.  I'll skip passing on an IQ stat but mine has been tested at significantly higher than the 130 cut-off for grade-school gifted program participation.  People there--Quora--would always claim "intelligent people are less socially oriented," or something such, prone to whatever other malaise, but to me a lot of that ends up being hearsay patterns that don't necessarily hold up in most cases.  Intelligence is like any other aptitude; it can couple with a broad range of personal characters or other aptitudes and weaknesses.  

The nerd or geek persona is separate from intelligence; the two themes may tend to correspond, but they are not tightly causally connected.  Maybe people embracing those character or self-identification themes tend to be above average in intelligence, but it's not as if one is a sign of the other, or that intelligence leads directly to preference of those forms of experience (an interest in sci-fi or computers, etc.).  Somehow it all naturally groups together, that people with certain capacities tend to explore using them in similar ways, but there is no necessary connection.  Plenty of people with sports aptitude are couch potatoes, and plenty of people with very limited athletic potential are still active in sports anyway, they just couldn't excel at the highest levels of competition.

Back to the aging theme; I was responding to this question on Reddit:

If you are aging, what if any supplements did you take in order that you thought might reverse aging or made you feel decades younger again? I mean do you have a sip of certain juice a day or take something to make yourself feel decades younger?

Who isn't aging?  Of course people there recommended diet and exercise, as I did.  But I added some less standard thoughts and practices.

Nothing like that [referring to the magic bullet / take a pill potential], but I can suggest things I know work, for sure, and a couple that might help that are less certain:

exercise: you should try to get at least 3 hours of medium intensity exercise per week. If you want to use weightlifting as this input, to double up on improving muscle conditioning and joint health, you can just increase overall intensity by rushing the sets. Some input should be cardio though; intense beyond walking pace input.

sleep: 8 hours per day is an absolute minimum, unless you somehow don't need much sleep. Coupling a bit of extra sleep with bumping up exercise input will change everything, along with diet change.

diet: cut out processed foods, sugar, junk foods, fast food, unhealthy snacks, etc. Eat natural foods, meats, vegetables and fruits, some whole-grain starch input. Nuts and beans can help with keeping protein intake up, which is important for exercise recovery. You probably don't need to supplement much if your diet is great, but taking a multivitamin couldn't hurt, and some basics like extra magnesium and D.

drugs, cigarettes, alcohol: get away from ingesting any.

tea (onto less certain input): I drink lots of varied tea, of good quality, and that may make a difference (I'm holding up great for being 56). Lots of the polyphenols are probably helpful, along with mineral input. People claim green tea is best for heart health (cardiovascular health), but I think drinking diverse versions would be better, black, green, oolong, sheng pu'er, some hei cha, etc.

goji berry: I eat a little of this daily, re-hydrated dried versions soaked in hot water for some minutes. The extra vitamin A (beta carotine) and xeaxanthin might be most helpful. It's probably good for eye health to also take in a good bit of lutein, but eating leafy green vegetables would cover that.

fasting: this should probably be back in the "certain" grouping. Fasting for 3 to 5 days at a time, at least 4 times per year, could change everything related to aging experience. I think my greying hair reversed mainly because of this input; it had been partly grey, and now isn't. Brain health seems to also improve, mental clarity and memory, which is difficult to achieve.

from 2024, but I don't have many clear photos of myself

Expanding on that:

What about new types of supplements anti-aging gurus promote?  Maybe those could work.  I wouldn't know, since I'm not on any.  I've not even had my hormone levels checked, a far earlier and more basic starting point than taking up hormone inputs or exotic supplements.

What about specific exercise inputs, adjusted sleep forms, less developed supplementation (taking zinc or turmeric / curcumin), specific diet forms (towards keto, Mediterranean, etc.)?  Sure, lots of approaches or inputs might be positive.  Per my understanding being quite active is the main helpful input, walking a lot, doing lots of low intensity activities, like laundry, cutting firewood, walking and hiking, swimming, and so on.  Even gardening, doing lots of very low intensity tasks, supports maintaining flexibility, by forcing you to move in different ways, with significant exposure level.

Getting some sun alone could be helpful.  It could be hard separating causes and effects, related to an input like that.  If someone were to swap out lying motionless while watching streamed video content for walking in the sun they'd never know which input helped most, the sun, the walking, or just not lying motionless.

I think diet alone has the most potential for change, especially if someone is on the standard American diet.  I've been moving back and forth between Bangkok and Honolulu and it takes a lot more focus to maintain a decent diet here (I'm in Hawaii just now).  In Bangkok fresh fruit is sold everywhere, exotic and delicious tropical versions, and even street foods can be relatively healthy, those literally sold from carts out on the sidewalks.  And inexpensive; it costs $20 for just about any meal in Hawaii, and probably over $30 if it's actually healthy.  

"Juicing" has lots of potential; drinking a bit of mixed vegetable juice every day, as the kind of extra bump the original question was asking about.  I practiced that at two different times in my life, probably over a period of at least a half dozen years, or maybe closer to a decade.  I was also a vegetarian for 17 years; maybe that helped?  Often with special diets the inclination to avoid some inputs, like over-eating, or junk foods, might be more important than what you actually consume.  A vegetarian and keto or carnivore diet might end up providing similar benefits for similar reasons, for those limitations, even though the apparent diet input is completely opposite.  Maintaining moderate body weight could be the overall main factor, in limiting aging, and eating a good diet and exercising could help lead to this, but from different directions.

Of course exercise inputs have plenty of potential too.  My health radically improved when I took up running, back at 50, and it improved again when I conditioned enough to ramp up training intensity and volume.  Swimming here in Hawaii has seemed to improve my muscle tone and flexibility quite a bit.  Doing yoga when I was 50 to 52 made a lot of difference, but Covid closed our local favorite yoga studio, so I let that go.

I swim in a swim lane between coral reefs not far from here

Fasting practice is especially promising.  It's too long a subject to add much more about why I think it helps (in a word, autophagy), or approaches that might be best.

I can't really place tea as a positive input either.  Research evidence of tea being quite healthy is very mixed in forms and results.  It probably is, but it's not the simplest thing to test for, and there is limited academic interest in reviewing that, since there is limited corporate commercial interest in leveraging tea sales as a health input.  In the US health care of sick people is far more profitable than preventing illness, especially through inexpensive food inputs.  There's a lot one might consider in relation to Traditional Chinese Medicine perspective on how tea is healthy, and in what optimum forms, which would vary by individual related to best fit or best overall balance.  I drank a lot of tisanes from the age of 22 up to 40; it's not just "real tea" that would have a lot of potential. 

Health risks related to tea are a potential concern, but there isn't a lot to look out for.  Caffeine intake should only go so far, and fluoride input is something to think through.  If you drink high quality tea (less mass-produced, chemical supported growth versions) risks from pesticides and heavy metal inputs are probably quite limited.  There are outliers claiming there are more significant, common risks to avoid, but in my opinion as long as you don't take a "more is better" approach to input tea is very safe.  Consuming up to 20 grams per day of it should be fine.  

You can offset any potential risks by varying types and sources.  You could maximize those risks in the opposite way, buying a kilogram of the most inexpensive, questionable tea you can find from an Indian or Chinese market source, maximizing your contact with those somewhat rare inputs by concentrating the same exposure form.  I don't necessarily trust all the "wild origin" claims I hear, but if half of the tea I consume really is of that form that seems positive, and at this point most of what I drink is represented as such.

One might wonder what all of this is based on, beyond my own personal experience, and where it ends, what aging is likely to be like in one's 70s or 80s, if all goes well.  My parents have observed many of these practices, and are in great health at nearly 80.  Many of my family members lived healthy lives well into their 90s (which of course introduces a potential genetic input).  My Thai mother-in-law is from a family where people tend to not experience much of their 60s and she is holding up well at over 80 now.  Activity seemed to make a difference, and decent diet.  Her sleep regimen is awful, and she never does significant cardio stress exercise; one might get away with letting one of these positive inputs drop.  Her mobility is severely limited now; any gap may come at a price.

I hope that some of this is helpful to others.  There's more I could add about perspective shift that might help, about meditation as an input, for example, but I'll get back to that kind of thing more later.

my wife Eye also holds up pretty well in spite of only experiencing some of these themes

Return to Hawaii; hiking to Mt. Olympus in Oahu

 

I've not been putting any focus on tea lately, returning to live with my kids in Honolulu a week or so ago.  It's been a busy week, and a busy month before that getting ready back in Bangkok.  I don't have so many deep, insightful thoughts to share so I'll add a bit on random impressions and then focus more on an interesting hike we just did.  I didn't even leave myself much interesting for a tea stash from last year; an old Xiaguan cake will be nice to drink, and the rest was mostly samples.

It was nice spending time at the Incheon, Korean airport during a layover on the way.  We often transit through Haneda in Japan, flying JAL, but this time I took Asiana, so transited in Korea.  Both are kind of equivalent; both are spacious, with decent services, and so much extra seating that it's not a problem to find a quiet gate area and lay down on an open row of seats for a nap.  They both have a decent amount of power cord stations, so that's not an issue.  Food options are fine at both, but I tend to eat snacks more than meals in between airline food meals.

One problem came up:  Korea doesn't have the same degree of tea culture, so there were no hot water dispensers for tea in that airport.  Of course coffee shops might give you some, or sell it to you, and there are lounges, mostly for business or first class customers, but it's not the same as in Japanese airports, or all over the place in China.  I cold-brewed a tea bag I'd brought of pu'er cake scraps, the extra bits that throw off brewing if you include that with separated more whole leaves.  It kind of worked.  As a parent it was tempting to walk into a baby care room to use hot water in one, since I'd spent so many years with free access to those places, which provide filtered hot water, but it just didn't seem right.

Related to the relocation reverse culture shock is always an interesting theme and experience.  I've lived in Honolulu three times over the last 2 1/2 years or so, generally for this same time period, for about 2 1/2 months.  I went to grad school in Honolulu so I'd lived here quite awhile ago for 2 years.

It's not so much that appearances, expectations, and experiences are so different that I need to adjust to them, it's just about things seeming different.  Then jet lag adds to that.  People look different, of course, but most people are Asian, which of course matches Bangkok.  Clothing styles are different, there are homeless people here (and not so much there), and the beach resort theme is different.  I love Hawaii, but I feel a little more at home in Bangkok, even though in general I hate large cities.  I lived in a ski resort area for a long time in Colorado, so that's familiar, being where others vacation, but it can also seem a little odd, when it's all your daily life instead.

I haven't ran yet; I've been quite busy, and jet lag made the first days rough [although I did twice, in between first writing this and editing, since I'm slow to post this].  The kids had spring break for the first half a week, so I spent every minute with them, the only way that would go.  I'd missed them terribly, even more than I miss the cats at home now.  Running is much nicer here; the air is clean, and much cooler, and it's breezy, with everywhere you go looking a bit like a postcard.

That hike

the top, from near the top

Of course it started with a late start; how else would it start ? I woke up really early (back to the jet lag theme) and walked up Kapiolani road to get malasadas at Leonard's bakery, at 6:30, and then by the time everyone else woke, ate, and made plans we didn't catch a bus until 10:30.  Kalani visited a friend instead, so only Keo and I hiked.  We had planned to do an easy route, up the St. Louis heights ridgeline to transition to Manoa valley, walking over the one side.  But then we talked and cruised on the walk up to that turn-off, and met an older guy there (79), who recommended that it would be a good day to go up to Mt. Olympus, because it's dry out now, so it wouldn't be muddy.  We really didn't bring even close to enough water to do that route, 1.5 liters between us, but we went up anyway.

We kept up a good pace over the next moderate section, not really pushing it, but eventually it got steep, and it was harder to keep effort level moderate to avoid sweating.  It took about an hour and a half from that trail branch, a bit difficult near the top, with ropes to hold while climbing steep sections, but we made it up.  The views were amazing.  We could see the next island over (Molokai, probably), and the other side of Oahu, Kaneohe on the east.  The pictures will tell that story.

Then we cruised down, trying to keep a good pace and moderate effort level.  That got harder as we dropped into the Manoa valley, with all that distance getting to us.  We were parched as we caught a bus, off to a McDonald's for a value meal, and cup after cup of Hi-C orange drink, after the first round of water.  It was really something.  

It was odd fitting the image of a homeless person so well on that McDonald's visit.  I was covered in dirt from using ropes to stabilize myself on really steep terrain, climbing up natural steps embedded in mostly dried mud.  I smelled terrible from sweating, and was a bit out of it.  There is no clear point to this part, no extra insight about taking up that social image; it was just odd.

Of course it involves adjustment getting back to this life, all the family dynamics, and extra demands.  Eye has been working a lot so I fill in most of the gaps, making meals, doing laundry, and making sure that kids' activities include outdoor time.  Keoni and I have swam out to a flag in a swim lane twice, 200+ meters / yards out in the ocean.  We met an old high school acquaintance once, on the beach to see fireworks (which were out of view; we were in the wrong place).  It has been nice.  I miss family, cats, and life in Bangkok, but being with the kids is worth all of that.

this looked to be a bit higher

Honolulu, mostly Waikiki, from pretty far up, showing the steps of the trail

the Manoa valley and Waikiki below

the east side (Kaneohe) from near the top

Keo!  no Kalani on this outing, which helped with the questionable call to summit that day

where I always take Kalani's photo

the trail beginning

A pleasant tea meetup with a nice tasting lineup

 

only 5 of the 7 who attended; I forgot to take the picture earlier

Friends gathered at our house again to try some teas, probably the last of a series of a half-dozen somewhat related meetups.  Three meetups were held where I live (in Bangkok, for now, in Honolulu soon), or four, if you also count a couple of friends dropping by in January (visit vs. meetup; not so different).  

To me those are mostly about the people joining experiencing the teas, and appreciating interacting with others, more than a formal tasting theme.  I could have said ten times as much about the teas, at the cost of most of that interaction dropping out.  Even doubling the limited information and input would shift the tone, from a friendly gathering of friends to more of an educational experience.  That's fine too, but when people first meet each other it's better if they can chat a good bit, and people joining has always included some of them repeating and some being new arrivals.  To me it's important for them to be able to express themselves, and for it to be about all of them, more than the teas.  I don't find myself as interesting because I already know those stories.

Interacting with the people was as pleasant as the teas, or more so for me, because I've already tried those teas.  But the teas themselves were exceptional, interesting for different reasons, and more of a sensible tasting theme or pattern emerged this time.  We talked more about whatever tangents came up, and our own backgrounds.  One person had traveled a lot (and many participants have been nomads throughout the various meetups), another was coming to tea from a drink-mixing background, and one was a long-term local resident working in freelance writing, with a diverse background.  So fascinating!  

Two friends I keep meeting are teachers, who alternate working and traveling, with one working on finishing a Master's thesis now.  One friend in attendance, who I've met a couple of times, is a Zen meditation instructor, although we didn't seem to get into that part so much.  That might not be an easy subject to say just a little about.  As usual people were from all over:  the US, Canada, Germany, and Italy, with a longer list of where they've also lived.

This writing is more about the teas instead; I won't summarize the rest about all that.  Mentioning what the teas were, and adding reference links, would help them see what we had tried again, and to me the sequence was interesting.  We keep trying different patterns of experiences, beyond generally moving from lighter to heavier tea character range.  This struck a balance between that kind of pattern and generally just trying what I like, with a secondary focus on the teas being novel.  It worked.

1.  Mao Feng Qimen, Chinese black tea (from Dylan Conroy of the Sweetest Dew, not reviewed, but here are other related versions reviewed):  I missed trying the last sample Dylan had sent of exceptional Qimen, and this was a good time to get to it.  

More ordinary Qimen is just another standard commercial black tea, but versions do vary.  I guess this was made from the plant type used to make Mao Feng, a main green tea type (or at least that seems to make the most sense).  It was heavy on buds, quite refined, complex, and pleasant in flavor, including cacao and a bit of soft malt.  It's not light in the sense that a rolled oolong would be, but the warm tone doesn't make it a challenging tea, and I didn't feel like starting all the way "back" at green tea or light rolled oolong, even though I have those around.  I like black teas better, and I wanted to get on to more sheng pu'er tasting this time.

not that tea, but two other exceptional Qimen from Dylan

2.  Dian Hong (Yunnan) style Thai black tea from Aphiwat, a 2024 version, from wild origin material (reviewed here, with a contact link to the producer here).  This is a tea I've been drinking regularly for awhile, and one we've tried in another tasting version, or maybe even two of them.  It's a lot like Dian Hong tend to be:  complex in flavor, expressing a lot of positive range (cacao, etc.), with good mineral depth, and good balance.  Part of the range could seem to include sourness to some (Huyen didn't really like it, or Dian Hong in general), but I love it.  

It's funny how I'm a bit put off by tartness in a black tea, but one leaning a little towards a sour range is still fine.  To me you wouldn't normally make this connection in trying this tea (seeing it as sour), but when you think about it that kind of works, and for people only adjusted to trying variety Sinensis black tea versions the difference could be off-putting, as it is for Huyen.  I just had it with breakfast, on the day I'm editing this; it's also great with food.

that Thai black tea

3.  local Vietnamese sheng (2024 from Quang Tom, reviewed here):  I love this tea!  I loved the 2023 version, and this 2024 version might be a little better.  It's quite oxidized, which is strange for sheng in general, but not so unusual for SE Asian versions.  According to Seth--mentioned in this blog many times, someone who looks into Vietnamese teas a lot, and researches them along with Huyen--that might be a normal step for Vietnamese sheng processing.  I've talked to this producer and it's intentional.

A tea version essentially in between sheng and black tea probably wouldn't age well, past just changing a little over a couple of years, but if those first years are positive enough that doesn't matter.  I drank a 2023 cake version pretty fast, and I'd drink this 2024 cake I own faster, but it's the second one I bought, and I don't want it to go as fast as the first did.  Tones are warmer than for conventional sheng, of course, and bitterness and astringency are limited, but plenty of fruit stands out.  It helps to push it just a bit to get the intensity up to the normal crazy sheng level, but you can push it as much as you want, since there is nothing negative to brew around.

2023 was pressed a little too hard (left), but the 2024 form is perfect

4.  Viet Sun Son La Vietnamese sheng (2023 version, reviewed here):  I really like this tea too; it's also the second cake I'm on for this same version.  I don't mind the repetition at all, or that I've been drinking Thai sheng from Aphiwat over and over as well.  I try plenty related to the blog review theme, and it's nice drinking favorites beyond that.  It helps keep my tea budget moderate too, but this cake is in the normal price range, I think, probably listing for around $80 now ($77; I checked during editing).  I bought it for one price increase less than that a year ago, and also the year before, so I think it's worth it. 

It's a bit more challenging than the first sheng we tried; it includes conventional sheng bitterness and astringency, just not the most ordinary flavor range.  To me it expresses more fruit than floral tones.  It made for a nice tasting sequence already, bridging from two types of black tea onto a hybrid sheng, then one that's more conventional, but not necessarily completely standard related to most Yunnan forms.

the Son La Viet Sun cake

5.  Man Xi 2008 sheng pu'er sample:  (finally back to using that second term)  I don't know what this is, or who gave me this; I grabbed about 20 teas from samples or favorites that we might try, and aged sheng somehow fit at this time.  Another I almost brewed instead was slightly older "factory" tea, a numbered CNNP or Taetea version (if I checked the number again I'd know; if it ends in 1 that's CNNP / Zhongcha and 2 that's Taetea / Menghai Tea Factory), as Google's AI explains:

First two digits: The year the recipe was developed

Third digit: The grade of the raw tea leaves, or maocha. The scale ranges from 0 to 9, with 0 being the smallest and 9 being the largest

Fourth digit: The factory that produced the tea

For example, a tea cake with the recipe number 7542 was developed in 1975 and made with fourth-grade tea leaves by the Menghai Tea Factory. The Menghai Tea Factory is one of the most famous producers of Pu'erh tea in China. 

Somehow it seemed likely this would be more of a boutique range version, which can be interesting, and definitely more refined.  It was like that.  I know no background related to this version or that area, but I'll cite a source describing another tea that might parallel it, or it might not:

Our 2007 Organic Manxi Mountain Raw Pu’er Cake uses sun-dried Shaiqinmao tea leaves (Yunnan big-leaf variety) from ancient tea trees grown on the organic tea plantations of the Manxi Mountain area. It is produced by Fuhai Tea Factory in Menghai County, Xishuangbanna, Yunnan.

The Manxi Mountain area is located at the Sino-Burmese border in the district of Daluo Town, Menghai County. It features a large group of very old large-leaf tea trees, planted by the Blang people over 500 years ago.

People keep buying aged sheng to find versions like this one, unless they really need super high complexity and intensity, as factory versions exhibit, if they don't mind rough edges that can go with those others.  Or this more refined version is another type of offering, more subtle, but potentially still well-balanced, or other 25 year old teas in a broader range might have settled but haven't faded.

Some aged sheng does just fade, if the type isn't suitable for this 17 year old, relatively transitioned range, but the intensity in this was ok, pretty good.  Not necessarily on the high side for intensity; it was quite drinkable and refined, but also a bit subdued.  Tones could've been a little warmer; maybe it hadn't been in wet storage for a lot of that time, which tends to emphasize that.  

For us not really focusing in on those teas as much as we might have I don't think most people picked up on just how good this tea was (although one person mentioned it), but that's all relative anyway.  I thought it was a bit exceptional, based on patterns of my own expectations, related to prior experience.  But then I also commented how I liked a 2006 Xiaguan 8653 version more, one we tried together two weeks ago, even though we all agreed it had a strong "barnyard" taste.  A clean version of that, mind you, like horse saddle, not like aged barn or manure smell.

that cake, which I really like, commonly sold in lots of outlets (the Xiaguan, not Man Xi)

6.  Oriental Leaf Fu "brick" (cake) hei cha (from 2020), with golden flowers (reviewed here, with the vendor page here; I think this was the Fengqing version, not the Lincang origin one):

This was quite a shift, moving from pretty good aged sheng on to novel hei cha.  That adds a lot of rough edges and rustic tone, but this tea type is pleasant, and interesting.

The golden flowers input is positive, and pleasant, while definitely unusual, related to most other tea experience.  It's hard to describe; it's a little like yeasty, fresh baked bread, just not exactly like that.  Maybe it leans toward floral and spice range at the same time, while based on warm tones.  While trying the next round, the one after this, I kept this tea brewing to try a really strong infusion version, and that was completely different, still approachable, but almost shockingly intense, heavy on mineral layer and those other flavors.

lots of mold on that Fu cake, which is considered a good thing

7.  1991 Thai (Wawee) Liu Bao:  (from a friend, so there is no link or review of this) aged tea is interesting, how it picks up depth, and smooths out any rough edges that were ever present.  For powering through a half dozen teas prior to this, and not slowing the pace, probably that novelty and depth didn't really come across so clearly.  

This seemed like pretty good aged Liu Bao, how those should be, expressing that set of typical interesting and complementary flavors.  It tasted like Liu Bao, just an aged-mellowed version of one, as it should have.  To me prior to relatively complete aging Liu Bao a harsher edge and flavor like cement blocks can stand out, but this had moved past that, to the extent it ever included it.

8.  2024 Na Lang Laos sheng, from Farmerleaf (reviewed here, with the vendor page here):  this is a recent favorite, shared by William Osmont on his somewhat recent visit here.  It's really good, probably the best Laos sheng that I've tried, and I've probably tried at least 15 versions of that.  It's bright, positive in flavor range, well balanced, clean, complex, and intense.  A couple of people noted that it was their favorite so far in the tasting (so overall, it being the last one), and it was mine as well.  

It was interesting moving from light to heavy across that whole sequence, and then back-tracking to this version, and upping the quality level a little at the same time.  Those other teas were already good, good examples of those types.  But dynamic, intense, and balanced sheng is something else.  

Surely there is other sheng out there that can seem to take the next step in different directions; I've had versions like that, some from those highly desirable origins, and others from more ordinary places, that just happened to be really good.  It was interesting hearing people try to place what aspects or character made this different, and that good.  Interpretations always vary, and it's not as if one could be objectively right more than any other (although it can seem like that to some).

the Farmerleaf Na Lang Laos sheng

It was a good place to leave off.  8 versions is a lot of tea, and we weren't tasting the first 2 or 3 infusions, and moving on, we were really drinking the teas.  I brewed all that in a 200 ml gaiwan, stacking (mixing) infusions every time, either 2 or 3, usually 3, so we lost a little in terms of noticing transition sequences, but gained ground in keeping up a pace, and just drinking some tea.  Even drinking 4 more isolated infusions of each--not mixing them, and only drinking a little--would relate to 32 rounds in total.  The tasting ran long, but not as long as that approach would have taken, more like 4 hours instead of the planned 3.

Snacks worked out well too; there is a good bakery not far from our house (Little Home), and what they produce is often made in small item forms that work well, tiny croissants filled with sausage, small cream puffs and egg tarts, and so on.  You can't really drink a good bit of 8 versions of tea, and many of those intense versions at that, without that sort of adjustment, eating something to offset it.  One person brought a mango, and pistachios; those sorts of inputs are nice to add variety.

It made for a nice experience, both related to all those teas and focus on conversation and appreciating the rest of the group together.

one of the earlier meetups, with Huyen and Seth at the bottom (who I kept mentioning)