Visiting a Bangkok Chinatown tea shop (K. Mui Kee Tea)

 

I've not been exploring Bangkok Chinatown tea shops much, for a long time.  One set of shop owners are so familiar and pleasant to visit with that I kept going to the same shop over and over, really appreciating seeing them, with lots of varying teas already on offer there.  That's to Jip Eu, my favorite local shop, located near the Hua Lampong railway station.

Their building is under repair, so they're closed, so I visited another local shop to buy tea for a gift within the last month (K. Mui Kee Tea, nearby there).  I wrote about trying a very pleasant Dan Cong from them here.

the owners of that other shop, Jip Eu

I just went back to buy more tea for gifts, and visited with the owner and two other guests there.  This is about that.  That shop owner had always seemed pleasant before, and it was a nice chance to visit more.

I don't want to say or imply too much here about the theme of that shop, or general value for what's there, or what else they carry.  But I can cover how trying those teas went, and that paints some of that picture.  You could assume that some of what I'm saying applies more broadly, that these represent their selection, or what I'm saying about value would hold true for others, but I'm not implying that.  

Inconsistency is one of the interesting parts of visiting Chinatown shops.  A version might be great, or value might be exceptional, then for the next tea it can all shift.  It's not that the shop owners can't judge teas well; my take is that working through very diverse forms of sourcing the outcomes naturally vary.  But who knows about likely causes.

Wild origin black tea:  this is what I already gave away for a gift, and what I was there to buy again.  I had only smelled the dry leaf before, but you can get some sense of teas that way.  We actually tried the tea there (not first; this isn't in order).  It is good.  

Maybe the flavor list is a little unique, not matching some standard type expectation, but the flavors were positive, and they balanced well, as the rest of the character did.  I suppose one might interpret something like limited intensity across some flavor range or light body feel as flaws, but to me it was a solid, pleasant, good quality tea.  I would expect that by shifting brewing approach you could adjust for whatever didn't seem as positive, to you.  

I can't really cite a clear flavor list, based on trying that tea yesterday, not focusing on that.  I think it included some dried fruit, and warm tones were what you would expect for black tea, maybe along the line of cacao.  I didn't notice citrus or roasted yam or sweet potato, but that's not to say that I wouldn't if I didn't try it again, and focus in more.

Cost was 500 baht ($15) for 100 grams.  That's pretty good for good quality, novel, distinctive tea like that.  It's not rock bottom pricing, as can occur in Chinatown shops, but you shouldn't be looking for that in a tea version of a type that's all but completely unique.  If the idea is to find a steal on a main type, like standard rolled Tie Guan Yin, that can work.  Really Thai teas should sell for less, and Chinatown shops tend to sell Chinese teas instead (of course).

a Longjing varietal tasting (covered here)

Longing:  this is a good test case for evaluating any Chinatown shop, isn't it?  If you don't already know why it's not important, but this is a pretty standard type.  It's more or less my favorite green tea.  Flavor tends to be nutty, or to resemble toasted rice, with some floral range, and not too much vegetal or grassy flavor (conventionally).  A range of flavor not too far off cashew can tend to pop, integrated with floral range in a unique way.  The effect can be a little like new car smell, but in a very positive sense.  I get it that comparison makes limited sense.

This version was pretty good, pretty far up the scale.  By that I also mean not at the top of the scale, but to me that's fine, if pricing matches.  It was selling for 1000 baht per 100 grams ($30), which to me seems fine for a pretty good version.  Often the best examples can be more like 50 cents a gram, or at least the normal best that you tend to find.

This is the kind of tea that would divide people with that developed preference.  Some would naturally really want to experience that most intense, most type-typical flavor set, and intensity.  But then they would already know buying that quality level for 30 cents a gram isn't how that tends to go.  To me pretty good versions bring across most of the same appeal.

two other Dan Cong versions, more oxidized and roasted (left) and lighter (right)

Mi Lan Xiang Dan Cong:  another good test case / standard type.  Theirs was pretty good.  I didn't catch a selling price, so I won't be able to evaluate if it's good for the price-implied quality level.  If it cost 500 to 600 baht per 100 ($15-18) grams it would be a good deal; if it cost 1000 you might be able to find as good a version for slightly less somewhere else.

That's the most standard type of Dan Cong, another oolong range type.  It's the name of a flower, honey orchid, so it's supposed to taste similar to other versions, and that flower, and I think this did.  It often also tastes a little like ripe peach.  I don't remember if this did or didn't, but I think I came in late in the steeping sequence, so maybe the most intense range had already passed.  Really high quality versions tend to express great character deep into a long round of steeps, but for normal priced versions (25 cents a gram or so, or less) the positive intensity fading over a limited number of rounds is fine.

that might've been between these in style, not so oxidized and roasted or as light

Dian Hong, a version with a lot of buds:  this is my own personal favorite black tea type, Yunnan black.  I tend to like fine leaf versions best, or even from good sized leaves, but buds heavy versions would be in higher demand, and considered more positive, to many.  It tasted like these should taste, and the feel / body seemed fine.  It was heavy on honey and some cacao flavor range, with good complexity and depth beyond that.  

it looked like this, a China Life Dian Hong reviewed in 2016 (the Mei Leaf predecessor)

If this had been a personal favorite style it would've really stood out among the other teas.  I do like it, but for whatever reason I like the leaf based variations more.  They might give up a bit in terms of forward flavor, traded out for more experience of depth, and the conventional flavor range shifts, not so much tied to honey and cacao but more into roasted sweet potato or yam.  For people who love Jin Jun Mei this wasn't so far from that taste range; they would also like it.

Since I'm guessing an appropriate value, even for not knowing cost, I could keep on with that.  This is pretty good quality tea, in a desirable, in-demand style, so a little higher cost range would seem normal.  But black teas tend to be priced lower than Dan Cong oolong, so pretty much everything I sad about the Mi Lan Xiang version also applies directly here.  This probably does cost a little more than the wild origin version ($15 / 500 baht per 100 grams), and that would be fair, related to buds heavy content being distinctive and adding appeal (demand).  To me 1000 baht ($30) per 100 grams would seem a little high, even though in online Western outlets that would still be about right.  Thai Chinatown shops tend to sell at a good value, although that's not always true, and you could still get a "bad deal" on teas in places.

Da Hong Pao (Wuyi Yancha):  a version we tried was fine.  Flavors and other character was in the right range, and it brewed multiple rounds consistently and positively.  We talked about in-house charcoal roasting, related to trying it.  There's a lot that brought to mind, and it was odd sharing how that theme is interesting, and represents distinctive vendor capability, and also serves as a red flag.  I'll add a short version of that here, and not say as much about this tea version.

Per my very limited understanding it's not unusual for Taiwanese oolong vendors to buy essentially unroasted, unfinished tea versions and then roast them to a desired level.  It requires a high degree of skill to do that well.  Producers roast teas under controlled and specific conditions, multiple times, matching the roast input to the existing tea potential.  It's not like just heating them up a standard amount for a standard time, and then they're good.

That's atypical though, again per my understanding.  Most Western vendors would just buy oolongs as finished teas, already roasted.  They would have been processed to match the other processing inputs, the original material character and oxidation level input.  So why else would a vendor need to add roast input?  For two main reasons, and maybe for others as well.

One is to periodically re-roast teas stored over a long time period to restore flavor balance, and compensate for some limited moisture input from storage.  This is a bit touchy, because in modern times, again per my understanding, vendors just seal the teas better to begin with, stored at an appropriate moisture content level, and an older concern about accumulated moisture contact drops out.

A last reason is to cover up flaws in teas.  Vendors might mix a few material inputs that more or less don't completely match with each other (although in the best case they would balance each other perfectly), and cover up inconsistencies in character by roasting it all quite a bit.  Bridging this category and the last, if a tea went completely dead from improper storage roasting might add flavor, even though it's not ideal to let a tea lose most of its original taste.

So one might look on claims that in-house roasting is a positive and important input with some suspicion.  Depending on how it's done, and why, it could be that.  That Da Hong Pao was pretty good, so that's a good sign.  Pretty good is all relative, and let's skip expanding on that for now, and the value part.  I'm also skipping that Da Hong Pao is usually a branding term for either mixed input teas or something random, maybe just Shui Xian, since the most original forms are usually sold as Qi Dan or Bei Dou instead (related plant types).

Another shou pu'er we tried a little of seemed ordinary, but fine.  I'll skip all the extrapolation here, about really placing quality, or guessing about price; we just tried one round of it.

K. Mui Kee Tea; they sell those tea stuffed dried tangerines, a cool thing to try

Other concerns; is this a typical Chinatown shop experience?

It's kind of not.  If shop owners want to try teas with you then they will, maybe even tasting all sorts of things, without really worrying about what you buy in the end.  More often they wouldn't.  A shop might be set up around that theme, as Sen Xing Fa is (a tourist oriented shop not too far away).  These older style, owner ran local shops tend to sell tea at a better value than tourist oriented shops with more staff.

a meetup at Sen Xing Fa; not so many shops would be open to hosting that kind of thing

Or shops might visit and make tea for locals they already know, the case of me visiting Kittichai at Jip Eu.  That's like visiting an uncle, to me.  I buy tea every time, just because it's fair to, and I'm usually there for that, but they'll often brew teas they don't even sell, just to share the experience.

I think this shop owner is unusually nice.  I always had that sense before, even though I may have never tried much brewed tea there.  His reputation is really positive in the local tea community.

So I seem to be saying that the owner is nice, tasting there is no problem, the teas are good, and they are also a good value.  That visit definitely implied all of that.  But I would expect some degree of inconsistency to come up, for some versions to be better than others, and for value to vary.  That's normal for Chinatown shops.  You hedge your bet in having that experience (of inconsistency) when the owner really gets tea, as he seems to, but Chinese tea is a really broad subject.  Even for vendors in the business for decades they tend to know some types better than others, and to have better developed sourcing for some range.

To me this isn't really a significant negative part of exploring teas through Chinatown shops.  Value might not be great all the time, or tea quality, but the normal range is pretty favorable, for better shops.  The worst experiences teach you, and the cost for that instruction tends to be relatively low.

Meeting those other guests was very pleasant.  They weren't so far along the tea exploration path, but they had significant prior exposure, and a fantastic attitude about it all.  They were really nice. 

Tea enthusiasts tend to end up in a strange place related to it seeming normal that people have already tried a half dozen version of dozens of types, and have memorized a couple of books worth of background.  Of course I don't judge people based on how they might do sitting down to write a book about tea off the top of their head.  

In a sense I envy people newer to the interest.  They have so much exploration range to get to, so many instances of trying something new and interesting for the first time.  If you start out trying basic quality tea versions you can gradually drink better and better tea, for years, without it even costing that much.  Just exploring broadly, or horizontally across types (if you like that spatial analogy), you can keep trying pretty good teas indefinitely.  Chinese teas do tend to be unusually diverse, and favorable, with a unique high end related to potential quality level, but it can work in relation to other origins as well.

I can make that more specific.  You could spend 15 to 30 cents a gram on a lot of pretty good teas, and drink different types and characters of versions for years, before it seemed in order to push on to higher quality level, to spend more, in order to really have a more complete experience.  Or you could start "at the top," either way would work.  I just don't think it would work well to explore a lot of the best quality teas out there, and then get around to trying much more basic versions after that.

All of these teas we tried are in the middle, and favorable in character related to that, well above average for quality level and pleasantness.  I could never drink teas better than them, for the rest of my life, and I'd be fine with that.  But people naturally approach all of that in different ways, and it's natural for a perspective on quality levels and what one values to change over time.

The Three Horse Chinatown shop.  I bought some tea there not long ago, but haven't tried any, there or of what I bought (again for a gift; I tend to give away a good bit of tea).  I'd have to recommend going to these other style shops instead, where you can meet an owner and try some tea with them.  Or in Sen Xing Fa it's more just different staff, but they're set up for tasting as part of a routine sales process.

What does it mean when tea versions aren't type-typical?

 

an atypical wild origin Thai oolong, left, and a more standard Oriental Beauty (DFMR) version

This is something I've been giving a lot of thought to lately.  I just re-tried a Thai oolong that doesn't match an established oolong style closely (based on Assamica material; one might expect that), and realized that it's quite pleasant in a completely different way (than related to standard oolong range).  

I would've said that in the review (from a month or so ago), but somehow what it means to me has changed in that month, or at least I'm working back through it again.  Looking back that tea was reviewed along with a Jin Xuan cultivar based Dong Fang Mei Ren (OB) version; that's not completely typical either.

Often how I frame ideas in very specific communication helps, when I respond to a group post theme, or when I'm discussing an issue with a friend or producer.  Drawing on that form, this is what I've recently said to a producer about this subject, about that oolong:

I just had the rest of that oolong with breakfast, and it's quite pleasant.  One thing I've been considering lately is that my expectations about teas being "type-typical," about matching styles I expect, may limit how much I can appreciate some versions.  I've been considering this for a long time, but I'm seeing it in a new way recently, related to having a lot of experiences with that theme.

I don't mean that I described that tea negatively, when I shouldn't have.  What I mean is that everyone's expectations would be colored by that, to some extent.  How well people like teas that don't match a specific style closely may relate to maturity of their tea experience.  It would take a long time to learn how different styles are expressed, then even longer to move past that as a main framework for evaluating teas.  I'm not finished with the second part, I don't think.

For more background, I've been using Moychay tea versions as comparison in some recent posts, because they sent some samples to review (as in that post).  Some of them are very pleasant, but not completely type-typical, usually only related to a single aspect not completely matching, so not that far off.  Or in that case presenting an OB version made from a different plant type (variations of Qing Xin are more normal, I think, but this isn't a key point in this content, and maybe that's not right).

I try to express that this kind of variation isn't necessarily negative, since some people would like many kinds of changes better, but at the same time a very close match to expectations could be positive in a limited way, in that it's what someone is probably often trying to buy.  And if they want to have the most typical experience related to building up awareness of types that works better.

That Assamica based oolong included a touch of atypical roasted input flavor, and the feel is structured differently.  It's all exactly what one would expect from wild-origin, different plant type tea (from variety Assamica instead of Sinensis, as most oolong is produced from).

The wild origin material theme really changes a lot.  In many cases oolongs are made from controlled genetics cultivars, for example from Jin Xuan, from #12 in a series of identified, cross-bred tea types (most typically produced as a light style, rolled form oolong).  Even teas made from traditional, older, conventionally established plant types--oolongs from Taiwan, Anxi, Fujian, and Guanzhou China, as types of Tie Guan Yin, Wuyi Yancha versions, and Dan Cong--would tend to be a limited range of things.  Cultivar genetics wouldn't be controlled, but plant types would tend to be similar, or would vary across a narrow range (which is two ways of saying the same thing, those last statements).

A plant growing out in a forest doesn't change it's genetics, but plant types can evolve and drift a bit as different plants die and are naturally re-initiated.  They can cross-breed themselves, more or less.  Maybe having a lot of other varying vegetation around changes outcome quite a bit, as many believe, but that's something else.

So far this is heading towards an assumed conclusion that we should also appreciate aspects and styles as they are, instead of filtering our enjoyment into narrow style and type preferences.  But why?  That kind of works, but neither extreme seems necessary, or intuitively right.

Processing inputs are something else, that we would consider differently.  Producers evolve production processes over time, grouped into distinctive approaches and styles, and in the best cases what works best gets carried on, and what doesn't is filtered out.  So these traditional final-outcome styles represent that, as the most possible outcome that producer feels that they are able to achieve.  

Broad preferences for styles and aspects can still vary over time.  For whatever reasons a lot of higher level oxidation and roast input to different types of oolongs, from different areas, has been getting unselected, with lighter styles becoming more dominant.  This isn't a recent trend; Marshal N wrote quite a bit about this in his early "A Tea Addict's Journal" blog.  That was mostly critique of modern "nuclear green" Tie Guan Yin being unfavorable, not as pleasant as traditional more oxidized and roasted versions, and not as favorable for your stomach (per his take, but there's a lot of truth to be considered in almost everything he says, or said).  But he also must have made other comparable observations about other types and styles, at different points.

I recently tried a Dan Cong that was made in that older style--assuming that one accepts what I've described as a broadly applicable and accurate generalization, which probably doesn't completely work--and it was very favorable.  That review was here, which compared that to a much lighter style Dan Cong version.  So why don't producers stick with earlier styles that seem so pleasant?

that second one is a little light, right?

Maybe it relates to preferences shifting over time.  Maybe the additional processing steps add difficulty, without bringing additional sales draw, in terms of increasing demand and selling price.  I don't really know; I would expect that causes and conditions are complicated.

This concern makes teas falling within limited types and styles being "type-typical" a moving target.  Could Assamica (plant type) material based oolong ever become conventional?  It seems unlikely, but it could become more established.  Could a broad demand for a lot of more oxidized and roasted oolongs become common again?  Sure, that seems more likely.  Or maybe that never actually dropped out, but producers and vendors were able to sell really light versions for a long time, in high volume, even though perhaps a broad sub-set of tea consumers didn't ever want that.

My overall favorite oolong producer, Wuyi Origin, favors a fairly light style, in general.  But then they also produce oolongs in a range of different styles, related to all of the inputs, so they can serve a broad audience with different preferences that way.  They are pretty good about accurately describing styles of what they sell, stopping short of a long flavor list breakdown, which I think makes sense.  People only need a sense of what they are buying, not a complete and detailed interpretation, which can vary by person anyway.

What else comes up related to these recent reviews; what can I pass on from them?  At times one aspect that seems like a very limited negative, perhaps even a flaw, can seem to affect a final judgment in a disproportionate way.  I think it's possible to focus too much on an ideal, and hold expectations that are too prone to ranking experiences, instead of just appreciating what is positive.  

As an example, a black tea recently didn't express complexity across a broad flavor range in the earliest couple of infusions, and then as it evolved later that filled back in (very recently; I just posted that while editing this).  The tea became very balanced and positive.  I'm not sure why it brewed like that, over those rounds.  

Evaluated against expectations of superior quality, specific style, and balance across all dimensions that could seem like a significant flaw.  But then maybe in some cases expectations evolve to make allowance for just this kind of thing, in terms of personal favorites.  Let's go with an example of that.

Dian Hong is my favorite range of black tea, Yunnan styles, which tend to not be all one thing, even though people would use the category bundling in different ways.  Sometimes versions include a lot of pleasant depth, but not as much pronounced forward flavor intensity.  I can still absolutely love versions like this, even though it sort of represents a significant limitation.  

a Moychay Dian Hong (right), recently compared with a Thai black tea

Such a tea might express pleasant cacao, dried fruit, roasted yam, or roasted sweet potato flavor, but in a limited intensity, with a lot of mineral depth (to add some specifics to that).  My take is that the Assamica material used to make such tea is often used to make pu'er in the spring and fall, and a summer harvest, that is weaker in intensity, is often used to make that black tea type.  So a spring harvest version of the exact same tea would be more complex and intense; it would be an example of a limitation.  But in some cases the tea can still work well anyway.  In a strange twist it would still be "type-typical," the theme I've been covering, because this is a normal way for Dian Hong to be.

So maybe I'm more open to that limitation because I expect it, based on having a range of related earlier experiences?  That seems strange.  As I experience it the tea style still just works.  The extra depth adds a different kind of complexity.  

To be clear here I'm using "depth" to mean that I automatically associate parts of the tea flavor experience in a physically represented way, with forward, intense, aromatic flavor aspects (fruit, floral range, whatever it is) as higher, and mineral or earthy "base" flavors as lower, and deeper.  I don't think that imagined spatial analytic form is necessary, or that it adds much to the experience, it's just how I've came to "see" tea experience.

pressed Da Hong Pao oolong (reviewed here); some novel presentation themes really work out

Conclusions

Where am I going with this?  As I try more examples that aren't completely type-typical I feel as if I'm changing how my own expectations relate to my own enjoyment of teas.  Calling that "maturity" imposes a value assessment framework I really don't intend (in a comment earlier here), but there's not another readily available concept to use for this.  I'm associating this with a part of a natural experience curve, and of course others would experience their own understanding and preferences shift in different ways instead over time.

Earlier in my tea exploration and communication I would ask others, through this kind of writing, to add their own perspective in comments.  That essentially never happens.  But I'll stick with these ideas, and see if they keep changing over time, and if my experience of different ranges of tea styles does.

As I try the rest of that oolong version, the later steeps, past a half dozen in count, I'm really enjoying it.  The feel structure is interesting, evolved to be rich and full, and smooth.  The flavor is unique.  A roasted input aspect gives it an almost almond-like character, with other vegetal tone one might interpret in different ways, positively as roasted grain, or barley, and more negatively as cured wood (depending on how they see it).  

It's nice.  But it absolutely doesn't match any typical form of oolong I'm familiar with, and I've drank quite a bit of oolong.  

To put this conclusion another way, I think it's possible to get stuck in the habit of looking for standard tea type experiences, and to experience minor flaws, or even what isn't present, as overly important, which reduces your ability to appreciate what is there, and is positive.

Vietnamese Assamica based oolongs, reviewed here

How Did You Develop Your Sense of Tea Flavors and Aromas?

combined tasting can highlight subtle differences, including flavor aspects

It's not uncommon for Reddit discussions to raise interesting starting points on tea themes, as in this case, considering how you can develop a sense of tea flavors.  That's not the most natural way to frame that set of ideas, related to how I see it, but it works, since it's functionally equivalent.  That post is here.

I guess it's not really a secret how my IRL status links to that Reddit profile, so this is what I commented (left in the original cut and paste formatting, which is extra janky, but that also works):

 

It's an interesting prior question if analytically identifying distinct flavors enhances the tea drinking experience, or if it's irrelevant instead. 

Moving on to the actual question, it just takes practice. Over a long period of time with lots of exposure, and focus on this theme, it will become easier to identify both general ranges of flavors and distinct flavor inputs. One tool that can help with this is a flavor wheel. It won't help initially, because you need the developed skill to go with it, but separating flavors into ranges does work better, and it helps having an idea of what you might be experiencing. It's this kind of thing (from here):

Note that some flavor you pick up with your tongue, often referred to as tastes (although these terms are used loosely in common usage): salt, sweetness, bitterness, sourness, umami (savory range). These others are sensed by your rear nasal passages, so they tend to be referred to as aromas.

This subject just keeps going. Sweetness isn't really identified by the typical sensation of carbohydrate range, of sugars, so you are really sensing other taste range that you associate with that same experience, or that mimic it (two different things). Astringency is a mouthfeel aspect, that is completely separate from this, but that is often confused with the experience of bitterness, or that could be adjacent to it. Sometimes a lack of one aspect range can seem to affect how you experience others, or an excess of one could have a different but comparable effect.

In practice there will always be flavors you just aren't familiar with, like those of a broad range of flowers (for many), or for obscure spices (eg. identifying the different incense spices). Then beyond that there is a broad range of what you've already experience that's going to be hard to associate, even though in a loose sense the flavor is familiar. Malt works as an example. Most of us have tried Ovaltine, or malted milk shakes, but it can be tricky identifying that flavor as what you are experience. Malty flavor in Assam black tea is related but it's something else, so we can use flavor concepts to cover a range of related tastes. Flavors perceived as negative can come across differently, or a base flavor range context including less pleasant flavors can steer you to noticing certain range (eg. even limited sourness might steer you to identifying musty or mineral flavors, while perceived sweetness might cause you to "look for" fruit or other positive range).

In actual practice there are a few things you can do. You can eat before tasting tea, but it should be neutral food, and you should eat it an hour or so before the tea. You can then still eat during tea tasting, but it should be even more neutral food, maybe something like nuts, a cracker, or croissant, to avoid adjusting sense of taste. It would be better to never smoke, and to avoid other harsh food or other flavor experience, all of the time. You can use water to "cleanse" your palate between tasting rounds, or even infusions of the same tea. Some flavor experience can build up in a positive way, or I suppose a negative way, but it can help resetting taste to get a clearer image of it. It's best to give yourself a lot of time and mental space. It takes a lot longer than it seems that it might. Sure, you can gulp a few swallows of a mug of tea and sense some flavors, but it helps to sip and slurp over an extended time, to really pause to consider what the experience is, what the constituent parts are.

Other inputs can matter more than it seems that they would. If there's potpurri in the room that's not going to help at all. Even a very dry environment can throw off the experience. People's sensations vary over time, maybe with different times of the day, or can vary from day to day. One part of the ongoing shift in form of perception is about noticing how all of that works for you.

That's a lot of it.  Ordinarily I'd unpack that first part more, whether or not an analytical approach that isolates and defines flavor aspects seems helpful, but leaving it open doesn't skip much.  People would see that differently, and I have mixed feelings about it myself.  I don't think that much gets lost, not moving on to a more analytical interpretation, and to the extent that kind of review helps it might make more difference beyond flavor range.  

It seems that as you try to do more with comparing teas you end up isolating aspects more and more, but the focus on the flavor list interpretation may not be as helpful or functional as identifying other ranges of strengths and weakness.  Typical positive range includes intensity, complexity, body / feel, aftertaste expression, refinement (an especially vague emergent and higher level range), sweetness level, balance, and so on.  

Negative aspects, flaws, or other limitations can take on lots of forms.  Sourness is a good example of what people typically hope not to experience, although there are exceptions, some fermented teas that are supposed to include a little (like a Japanese fermented goishi cha).  Some mineral flavor range can be especially positive, and other scope quite unpleasant.  A bit of "cement block" taste might be in the middle, but leaning towards less positive.  A tea as tasting like an ash tray would usually be negative, and that can come up.  Some of those positive aspects missing or seeming out of balance can represent flaws (eg. sweetness level seeming off, or feel being thin).

In some online product descriptions--a minor subset of all of them, since it's rare--a lengthy list of flavors can seem improbable.  Complex teas can express a lot, and flavors can evolve across rounds, but when a dozen flavors are described as primary that's likely to be exaggeration.  Don Mei come to mind; he talks like that.  But some people really could free-associate a lot of valid feedback about the experience; maybe he is just doing that, a lot of the time, and isn't even clear himself on when it bridges over to less justified marketing spin.

And this circles back to whether or not it's positive or helpful to describe aspects.  If you are struggling to place 3 or 4 primary flavors then it might be interesting to develop a better aptitude for making such connections.  But once you pick up that ability maybe it would make sense to keep going, to see how far it can go, and that might become a valued part of your normal tea experience.  Or really the "raw experience" shouldn't change, with less labels placed on parts of that experience, so passing on all of it could also make sense.

That writing never unpacked how the tea wheel can help with this.  It may be easier earlier on to get a more vague sense of a general flavor scope range, for example seeing flavors as vegetal or floral, without it being easy to narrow that to specifics.  Using the flavor wheel can help support that kind of a two-stage interpretive approach, and can help with suggestions about the finer distinctions.  

I remember once struggling to place a flavor in winter oolong version, something warm and rich, that was unfamiliar to me, within tea experience.  It turned out to be malt, or more specifically the range of malt found in Ovaltine or malted milk balls (or milkshakes), versus the drier, edgier malt expressed in Assam black tea.  A tea wheel didn't help me then, but it could have.  Instead it just eventually came to mind.

The photo caption at the start mentioned that combined tastings might help.  But it's hard to say how.  That really works better to highlight differences, more than specific aspects.  If one version is much fuller in feel that will be quite clear, for example.  Differences in relative sweetness level stands out.  Something like greater flavor complexity, more going on for diversity of aspects, would also stand out, but it wouldn't necessarily help with identifying one flavor aspect version.  

It's drifting off topic a bit, but something also gets lost in using this approach.  You wouldn't notice the "cha qi" or body feel effect from just one version, which I don't tend to pick up on well anyway.  And a flavor experience can seem to build over time, as you drink round after round, in a form beyond simple transitioning, changes to aspects.  Switching between two versions would offset that.

Practice would make the most difference, trying lots of teas, and paying attention to them.  It's hard to describe what that entails.  It helps to set aside time and attention space, to spend a half an hour or an hour just drinking a tea.  Relatively pleasant but still neutral outdoor exposure can be nice for that; you don't need to be isolated in a low-stimulus empty room. 

he's not in the picture; this is from another day

As I type this, on an apartment balcony in Honolulu, a small bird with a green head stops by on the nearby evergreen tree to chatter on about something.  I suppose he is costing me focus, but in a pleasant sense.  It's nothing like watching a 45 minute Youtube video, where I'm immersed in a screen.  For me I also avoid music in the background; it's just one more layer of stimulus to tune out.

my very patient tea drinking companions back in Bangkok, usually caught up in exploring

that space.  having tea with breakfast doesn't help, but eating somewhat neutral foods first is fine.

Southeast Asian tea themed meetup in Honolulu

 

Not long ago I wrote about a variation of this event theme, a tasting meetup.  That picture is really from a meetup in 2023, covered here; I again didn't take a picture this time.  It's funny how similar the tea list was, even though parts were different.

Related to limited attendance to that recent meetup, this time six people showed up.  That's beside my daughter and I hosting, and my wife joining a little to talk about tourism in Thailand (kind of a tangent; she's a registered tour guide there, so it's force of habit).  It was really nice.  Most had limited exposure to tea experience so it was nice going through broad intro and background scope.

One might wonder what the point is of sharing this is.  Bragging about being such a good host, or having access to interesting teas?  It's not that.  To me the point is that it's easy to share tea experience with other people, if you have a few interesting kinds around, even though coordinating with others you don't know is difficult.  That local friend who is an owner of Teas We Like joined again; it was nice having two well-informed tea related perspectives to share (also counting myself as such; it applies, just less so in my case, in some ways).  A meetup would still be fine with less of an educational component.

For people who feel that their own tea selection is too limited to provide much exposure they could open it to others joining to also share what they like.  It would work to frame that as very open and optional, and people would take it as such.

I'll describe what we tried, and some of the reasoning for going with this progression, and how these teas were received.  That last part might be the most functional, related to what would work for a tasting / meetup. 

2024 Thai black tea, close enough to Dian Hong (reviewed here, an earlier version, and this version):  this has been a personal favorite of mine for a long time, which is now one session away from being finished (from a kg or more of it; so sad!).  

It seemed like an approachable and interesting place to start.  Pretty much everyone always "gets" Dian Hong style black tea, since it's flavorful, mild in nature, sweet, a little complex, with decent depth.  It made for a good baseline for comparing other tea type experiences to.  This version was from Aphiwat, described more in relation to the third tea we tried.

I'd planned to start with a kind of low-medium quality range Wuyi Yancha, a Shui Xian, but this tea is better, and it served a similar purpose.  It can work to talk about both the strengths and limitations of teas; that came up a good bit in this tasting.  To me this black / red tea just works, even though it's a bit basic.  Flavor notes are along the line of cacao, dried fruit, and moderate mineral.

2023 Quang Tom Vietnamese oxidized sheng:  this post covers what this tea is, kind of an outlier for style (comparing it to the 2024 version, which is a little more conventional).  

This version is interesting for being a bit cloudy in appearance, usually an indicator of a problematic processing input.  This probably was a case of that; I think it wasn't dried properly after being pressed.  I'm guessing this because I first received this cake, or one like it, in 2003, when it was new, and it was still too damp then.  So I dried it out.  I did so by heating a good bit of salt in a toaster oven, a quarter cup of it, to pull out the moisture, and then placed this cake in a sealed storage container with an open cup of that salt, for a couple of days.  Since I was living in Bangkok re-conditioning the humidity level was automatic.

this should be 2023 left and 2024 right

People liked it.  That cloudiness dissipates within a few rounds, and doesn't seem to throw off flavor much, even though I'm not sure if it's a good idea to not drink a lot of it (I'm on my third or fourth cake now, so if that is an issue I'm just taking the hit).  It tastes a lot like honey, or even beeswax, and is very sweet and mild.  I suppose it's more like a lightly oxidized black tea than a sheng, but not exactly like that either.  And not really like an oolong either, although it might sound like that's what is in the middle.

2023 Thai sheng:  this is from my overall favorite local Thai producer, Aphiwat (reviewed in different posts, including here, but that was the 2024 version, this is the 2023).  He is a member of a local "hill tribe" in the Chiang Mai area (which would be pejorative in US English, but isn't in standard Thai use of English, as a translation of their own wording for something similar).  They work with older plant local material, a wild origin sort of theme, but it isn't presented along with a lot of claims of either, it just is what it is.  

Aphiwat!

We talked through a lot of tea background at that meetup, about plant types, older plant and wild origin material concerns, a bit on processing style, storage conditions and aging input, and local origin character; a lot of the basics.  It wasn't set up as a developed session outline, just plenty of basic discussion.

Even three years old this tea retains a good bit of bitterness and vegetal input, a green wood edge, along with some floral character.  To me it's quite approachable at this point, because I started drinking it brand new three years ago, and it was a bit intense and more challenging then.  Flavor tones have warmed, and it has picked up depth.  We really didn't dig too deeply into how sheng gradually transitions over the years; that's a lot to get into.  But we touched on some main themes, including a little on that.  It's fascinating scope, how teas change, and how storage conditions affect that.

2022 Wawee origin Thai sheng (from Rishi Tea):  this is another pretty good example, just not quite on the same level as the prior tea.  Where that version stays intense and just as pleasant over a full cycle of 10+ rounds this one kind of fades after a half dozen infusions.  That one friend mentioned how age of plants used might tie to this, how younger plant plantation production might be more intense earlier and lose intensity faster, and older or more natural growth material might start a bit subtle and keep picking up intensity, or might transition in aspect range later in rounds.

It was well received.  It's a relatively pleasant tea for those decent first half dozen infusions, and it doesn't have a challenging "youngish" sheng character.  By that I mean that it includes some bitterness and astringency, but not all that much, and warmer tones have just barely started to enter in.  Thai sheng, or other SE Asian versions, can often include fruit flavor, and to me this does.

Fu zhuan hei cha based on white tea, from Oriental Leaf:  this was a big shift, moving on to hei cha (dark tea, another broad category, although some people see pu'er as that, and some don't).  

It's a pretty mild version of one, and the heavy "golden flowers" fungus input gives it that one characteristic taste.  It's based on white tea that is further processed as Fu zhuan, or Fu brick hei cha, which is kind of unusual.

People liked it.  They said it tasted like pumpkin pie, which is a pretty good observation.  It definitely includes warm tones, sweetness, and related spice flavor range, so that's it.  It's really easy to prepare; lots of infusion strength range would have been fine.  None of these teas were really challenging in relation to that, so I didn't need to focus in so much to dial in brewing.

Just to clarify brewing approach a little further I was using a large gaiwan, probably 200+ ml, and brewing and combining two infusions, to brew enough for seven people to try a little each round.  

My wife saw that gaiwan out somewhere in a thrift store and bought it sometime in the last year (in January, or last year?), and this was the first time I used it.  It makes you wonder about potential lead glaze exposure, doesn't it?  Not to worry participants, who may read this; people are right to test teaware for that, and limit exposure, but drinking a few hundred ml brewed from a dodgy gaiwan would still be fine.  It looks like a standard mass-produced version; it's probably fine.  Why mention it then?  Why not overshare, since it is related?

There wasn't much negative feedback to cover, related to what didn't work for people, or what was challenging.  It probably helped that these were all fairly approachable teas.  And if one didn't match preference as much as others it might have been natural for them to not comment on that part, and just take it as it comes.

1980's Bao Zhong:  I'm not sure where I got this tea, maybe in a trade with a friend (I don't think that I ever did review it).  It's an interesting character range, definitely well-aged, but it lacks both depth and complexity.  Storage input wasn't all that musty; it was pretty clean and neutral.

My one more-experienced friend in attendance mentioned that re-roasting during aging, a common practice for offsetting input of humidity over time in oolongs, may have narrowed the distinctiveness of the character range.  Roasting can counter sourness developing from a tea becoming slightly damp, and can change the flavor in a positive way, but it could also transition it in a way that limits its aging potential.  

It was still pleasant, just not all that interesting or pleasant related to any aspect range.  It's interesting being exposed to old tea versions, even when some aren't relatively ideal, in order to place later experiences against that.  

Lessons learned, what might have been different

It was all fine for sharing some basic but interesting teas, and pleasant discussion.  Nothing really went wrong, or seemed like a gap.  

It was especially nice having a "tea expert" join to add depth to the discussion, since that friend is good about linking the ideas to background that relates, without spiraling the input into lots of tangents.  It could actually detract from the limited exposure if one were to fill in too much background, making it seem like a lot of other versions would work better as examples, or de-emphasizing personal experience, which is kind of the main point.  

Any given tea offers whatever experience it does, and people tend to relate to that better after plenty of exposure, in terms of placing it.  But it's still a communication skill to bring that across, at times related to leaving out a lot of what might be said, and limiting input to others to what is most helpful.

It came up in discussion how much these teas cost (which I didn't take contributions for; the purpose was just to share the tea exposure).  It wasn't much, since I bought a lot as local teas back in Thailand and Vietnam, and one was passed on by a vendor, and another was probably part of a tea exchange.

We never did justice to trying ordinary range Yunnan sheng pu'er, of any origin, type, or age.  We just didn't go there.  I had considered adding a version, since it would've worked as a foundation for later experience, but I don't think it would've been easy to relate to (although looking back we did try a nice basic Yiwu three years ago at that other local meetup).  

I mean young sheng, what I tend to drink, which tends to come across as challenging, in the most conventional forms.  I was going to try the one older version I have on hand with them, described in the last post about that earlier meetup, but it's only so-so, and it was more interesting to try a much older oolong version instead.  

There's no need to try to drink the ocean, related to trying as much range as possible in one quick types-survey form meetup; what we got to worked well as an introduction.

I have no pictures of that yard space, but this is a view from the same general area

Meeting a veteran tea enthusiast in a Honolulu meetup

 

this was a tea meetup in Bangkok instead; I didn't take a picture this time

I just tried holding another open tea tasting / meetup where I am now, in Honolulu.  It was a great success, because I met one of those well-regarded "tea people" you can talk to online, but don't tend to meet very often.  He is one of the founders and owners of Teas We Like, which I interpret to be the best Western facing curated aged sheng pu'er vendor, I think mostly selling teas aged in Hong Kong and Taiwan.  But you can check for yourself.

I can't think of another example of a similar vendor, but all the same they are well-regarded, which isn't always how a vendor covering a limited scope goes.  It's odd that aged sheng would seem like a niche.  There are market-style vendors, like Yunnan Sourcing and King Tea Mall, but that's something else, the opposite of a curator (where they select only very good versions, and list far fewer items).  I can think of one poorly regarded aged sheng curator vendor, but of course there's no need to name names.

I'd planned to meet a half dozen people through Reddit contact, offering others a chance to try teas, and he was the only one who made it from that planning.  Two other neighbors joined, so it was enough.  Really two people is enough for a meetup, so in a sense it was more than enough.  

It doesn't matter who that one person joining is, related to a tea resume, but as I see it there are probably less than a dozen main current sources for good teas overall, within the standard Western acceptance.  Maybe that should be narrowed to "for pu'er," but it might also work in general.  Two main ones are White2Tea and Yunnan Sourcing.  As I see it this source is pretty much on that same level, just in a different theme.  It's still related to pu'er, as those are, which I drink, generally as young / unaged versions.  I just met William of Farmerleaf a year or two back, someone else on that short list of best sources.  

It's nice comparing notes with a like-minded enthusiast, and especially interesting because he takes tea more seriously than I do.  Lots of casual tea drinkers would.  I'll describe what we tried, and try to capture how that part works at the same time, what kind of "seriousness" comparison I'm referencing.

I drink pretty basic teas, and keep the brewing and drinking experience pretty basic.  It's mostly that.  One part is that I have very little tea budget to work with, living between Thailand and Honolulu on a Thai budget, even if it's a decent IT professional income over there (in Bangkok).  It's still pretty low by US standards.  We are poor.  And that's fine; things worked out that way, and it works to just adjust around it.  We get to be middle class again when we live back in Bangkok, as we will again in June and July.

That's only part of it though; my overall tea exposure spans a unique range.  I've been able to try a ridiculous amount of amazing tea related to writing a blog about it, and vendors sharing samples (or considerable volume, but usually it's samples).  I might've tried a couple thousand versions of tea.  Whatever the count would be it's beyond counting.  

Some were amazing quality, high demand, wonderful to experience teas, and others were just unusual related to range, the kinds of teas you just don't get to.  Off the top of my head small-batch Russian shou pu'er comes to mind; who tries that?  Or I've tried a lot Liu Bao and Fu zhuan hei cha over the last couple of years.  One tangent related to Henan province teas, exploring hybrid style approaches there, and a couple of other vendors have shared really nice sheng pu'er, what I tend to drink.  Extended tangents related to Indonesia, Georgian, Nepalese, and Indian teas.

Let's get back to that tasting theme, on to the teas, and I can explain how two tea enthusiasts' experiences and perspectives can vary, based on that interesting discussion.

2024 Farmerleaf Na Lang Laos sheng (reviewed here):  when I met William (of Farmerleaf) he passed on most of a cake of this, which could be the best Laos origin sheng I've experienced.  I've tried a good bit of that type from Laos; this might have been something like the 10th version, or maybe it's a good bit more, since I've tried a few sample sets.  It's pretty good quality, and pretty close to standard Yunnan style, as SE Asian versions go.  Not a close match, but in the general range.  I could add more about terroir inputs versus processing and such, but it seems better to leave that out, since it would be speculative and general.

That new tea friend pays more attention to teas than I tend to, and notices body feel as a main input.  A vendor would need to be able to evaluate teas on a different level, where a tea blogger can just pass on an impression a few times a month, and however that works out is fine.  If a reader's take on teas matches my own that impression could be very useful, but it might not be easy to determine that, without trying a few versions that I've already reviewed.  

The body feel / cha qi thing is something else.  People are either sensitive to that or they aren't, although you could probably develop it.  He drinks teas in the morning before eating, which is a good step towards a fuller experience of that factor, that I don't get to.  It affects pretty much everyone's stomachs negatively, just to different degrees.  For aged versions it makes more sense; the effect would be more limited.

Kind of a tangent, but I've experimented with what I can drink while doing extended water fasts, a few days into not eating.  Sheng pu'er is out, even aged sheng.  Shou works well, and aged white tea and mild hei cha is fine, teas like Fu zhuan.

To me these are all teas--in this tasting list--that I've been drinking for awhile, so it's also hard to carefully experience something I've drank a half a cake of, or in this next case multiple cakes / bings.  The teas are what they have been, over the last year or more.

2024 Quang Tom Vietnamese sheng, a more oxidized version (reviewed here):  again this is a tea I've drank over a full cake of (it's over two now?), so it's a daily drinker basic for me.  Most of what I ever drink is in that range, tied to how I approach tea now, and that budget issue.  

His take on it matches what I experienced of it, that it's a comfort tea, pleasant in a sense, it's just not especially complex, and lacks aging potential.  It's a bit novel, related to few teas outside of SE Asia being like that, but it's not so unusual for Vietnamese production.  Flavors are pleasant, warm, with some fruit range, and a bit of edge and bitterness to give it balance, just not much.  

The 2023 version included a lot of honey flavor, and this has some, but not like that.  It's also flawed by a storage input (as I interpret it, related to first trying that one when quite new), not being dried fully during the pressing process, which didn't ruin the tea, but the effect was surely more negative than positive.

the 2023, left, is even more oxidized

In terms of ranking these teas he said that the Laos version seemed best, and this second best, leaving the next aged cake as the least favorite (lowest quality?; it could relate to novelty, beyond that).  That last version, the one I've not described yet, is a low cost factory tea, not really intended to be something other than what it is.

I suppose this tea version contributes less body feel than the first, that it expresses less cha qi.  Since I don't get that I don't know, and I didn't push him to rate it.  

In discussion I compared this to running:  I don't really "get" the runner's high, even though I must experience the same endorphins others tend to.  I feel less pain during that hormone release, and flow better, but I certainly don't feel high.  With teas that contribute a pronounced enough feel I'll notice it, but not with most.  He confirmed that most teas don't provide as significant a degree of that experience as a limited range that do, so regardless of being tuned in I'm not missing all that much, while drinking basic teas.

2007 CNNP 8281 (reviewed here):  it's odd that we tried this tea.  In reviewing what else I had on hand, with him and my neighbor, he said that he was interested in this one, especially after smelling the cake.  It's so basic though; it seems odd that someone into the opposite extreme for quality and novelty would find it interesting.  But I kind of get it; it must relate to appreciation for the entire range (of aged sheng), and maybe in part the novelty of a Bangkok storage input.  And maybe for a point of comparison; it can be interesting for a tea enthusiast to try Lipton once every half dozen years, to experience that other range.

comparison with another CNNP version, the 2007 8891

This tea becomes more approachable and pleasant after a few rounds, but to me it's a really basic version even in comparison with the other basics (but then young SE Asian teas are pretty standard for me now; I had three others from Thailand and Vietnam that we didn't get to).  This tea could really use another half dozen years to finish that transition process, and the part about it improving after 3 or 4 rounds relates to it including a rough edge earlier on.  It's not harsh, and definitely not bitter or astringent, but the warm tones are also rough, something remotely along the lines of cardboard, just not exactly that.

My neighbor, who isn't into such teas, might have interpreted some of the novelty as pleasant, but it seemed it mostly came across as unusual.  My new tea friend seemed open to experiencing it, even though the character couldn't cross past favorable in some ways.  I do like that tea; it's clean and balanced enough, for moving through so much transition in 19 years, in hot and humid Bangkok storage.  It works as a breakfast tea, which is my normal context for experiencing most tea.

Take-aways

It was interesting comparing perspective related to a few teas I've been enjoying.  That neighbor, not so into tea, didn't have much for detailed impression to pass on, but it's nice sharing the experience.  I thought that was going to be the event theme, letting other people new to tea try some different things, but it was pleasant even though it mostly wasn't.

A half dozen people tentatively confirming and then not making it is harder to place.  Two explained why they didn't prior to the event, and three either missed it related to just running late or missing something in a chat message.  It's all good.  

Setting this kind of thing up through Facebook worked out better, when I was more active on that.  A more persistent group discussion thread could cover details, linked to an event notice, which is like a limited calendar function.  Facebook direct messaging works a little better.  I started a group related to holding events in Bangkok, here, and although the algorithm now shows almost no one the posts from there at one point it was more functional.  Facebook feeds are mostly promoted content now, or ads; it's why I'm far less active there.

I've ran across input and compared notes with people more conventionally into tea than I am before.  It's hard to know how to express that, since it's a take, and a developed approach, that only applies to a subset of people who are into tea.  I'm not even talking about aesthetics (related to surroundings, wearing a robe, tea pets, or whatever else), ceremonial brewing approach, leaning into using the complete or expanded set of gear, and all the rest, I mean just related to appreciating tea.  There are levels to it.  

I've never portrayed myself as "getting it right," or even taking on the deeper level of just noticing the finer tea aspects, and my own reactions to the teas.  I've explored a lot, and shared a lot about how that went.  During tastings I can spend a couple of hours with a couple of teas, so I do vary the degree of focus, depending on the context.

It was interesting hearing a bit about how following a related but different path goes.  Most people couldn't communicate that clearly, but he could.  Within the noisy environment of a half dozen people meeting for the first time that wouldn't have come across, so the limited attendance was actually ideal, in a sense.  I've recently read one of those traditional quotes from an ancient Chinese tea master to this effect, about how 3 or 4 people sharing tea is ideal, and with 6 or 7 it's complete chaos.  He put it better than I could, even with translation loss of clarity factored in.  

I suppose it all depends on the desired outcome, and how closely people are aligned going in.  And the event theme; someone presenting teas and ideas about the experience would still work well in a group, even for a dozen people, but I've always favored letting the social dynamic in a group gathering share a lot of the focus.  

That's all the easier with two people, even though that might seem counter-intuitive, that the social function actually works better the smaller the group.  Quieter people tend to say very little in a larger group, even with 5 or 6 people, so you end up needing to adjust discussion themes or flow a little to get everyone to engage, and share their own experience.