Mental approach and state related to long term water fasting

I'm on day 4 of a 5 day water fast now, four full days without eating, counting that I started on Sunday evening and it's Thursday evening now.  For some people that's not that long a duration; they can extend it into multiple weeks.  5 or 7 days is pretty common for significant length water fasts though.

I'll get into what I consider to be a water fast, but I'll start with the point here.  Fasting requires an interesting mental approach, and it's interesting how your mental state plays out over 5 days, or more or less time.  Maybe it's what one would expect; it would depend on what you would expect.

Back to the definition of water fasting; there are a few, but the way I'm using it I will drink tea or herb tea, or diet soda, but nothing with any calorie content.  Of course some people limit it to water; that is implied in the term I'm using for it.  Some people drink coffee, but I drink mine with milk and sugar, and don't want to try to switch over on a very empty stomach.  

I don't drink a lot of diet soda when fasting, but I might have one or two.  I drank one so far; that will be it.  A local Thai producer, Singh, makes a nice diet lemon or orange soda that's a pleasant break from tasting nothing but tea for days.  I usually only drink herb tea a couple of times, but not because I see it as a negative input.  Related to tea I've found that I can only drink shou pu'er, some hei cha, and aged white tea, because those are easy on your stomach.  Shou is best.  Not because I like that type, because it's definitely not a favorite, but it works best.

Not to go too far into the how-to scope here, or probably at all into why to fast, but for the most part the only other thing I ingest is sodium, potassium, and magnesium electrolytes, or salts.  I use the chloride compound version of all of those, because they are readily accessible and the cheapest.  I don't eat much for vitamins; I did just take a multi-vitamin, but hadn't up until then.  The magnesium I take as a tablet (gel coated capsule, I guess that was), and the other two I mix into water and drink.  What dosage to take is pretty complicated; I'll skip that here.  I will say that it takes forever to get a decent input range sorted out, and it probably varies by person, and by what that person is experiencing.

Mental state

Someone on Reddit mentioned that the added mental tension or stress from not eating is part of the reason you benefit from it, which I found very interesting.  Their idea was that if you feel a constant tension for several days, and could resolve it completely just by eating, but don't, then the rest of your life feels that much less tense or stressful, because you conditioned to experience temporary but sustained stress.  I can't say for sure if that works, but maybe, or probably.

I really wanted to pass on more subjective experience description here, not theory on how it plays out, to say what it's like.  It changes as you gain exposure to fasting, so the first three times it's very different than after a number of fasts.  

This might be about 12 for me; I'm not keeping track (maybe just over a dozen, thinking it through more, or it could be 15, since I fasted a lot that first year).  I try to fast for 5 days 4 times a year, but this year I've only done it once earlier this year, so far, about seven months ago.  I spent about six months with my kids, in Honolulu and then in Bangkok, the two places where we live, and I limit activities like that while I'm around them.  It's nice eating with them, and cooking for them, so I just skip the practice, until later.  I'm living with Keoni now but not my daughter; he just graduated high school, so he's back in Bangkok, not returning to Honolulu for now.

a full sized child, kitten, and tea; these are important parts of my life now

In the beginning it's very stressful, and you experience more severe hunger and energy level disruption.  You think about food a lot more, and it causes more stress.  After a half dozen fasts you don't think about food very often, but an emptiness persists, and some degree of stress.

That's already pretty much the short version.  Somehow it seemed deeper than that, more complicated.  The form of the stress is unique.  People into fasting claim that you experience an unusual mental clarity, and I agree with that.  I can get way more work done if I'm on days 3, 4, or 5 of a fast than normal.  But I'm a little edgy too, prone to being short with people, so it comes at a cost.

I guess in general the starting points seem more important, and valid.  Why fast?  If it's just to experience stress then there would be lots of ways to add that to your life.  There is a list of conventionally accepted benefits, but those are impossible to verify, both by personal experience and through research.  They center around autophagy, a body process that clears out damaged cell material to use as resources, which is triggered by exercise, but all the more so by fasting.  All of this is conventional understanding; it's not easy to verify.  Supposedly it reduces risk of cancer and diabetes, and who knows what else.

There's not much that personal experience completely supports.  I feel a little mentally clearer since taking up fasting.  I seem to experience more energy when I run.  That would relate to metabolic flexibility, another benefit, related to your body adapting to use fat energy better.  I'm in ketosis right now; fat or muscle tissue is all the energy there is to keep my metabolism going.  Reserve glycogen seems to run out on day three, but again that's just another guess.

One very odd positive result occurred, that I can't fully connect:  around when I started fasting the grey hair I had then mostly returned to being colored again.  It seems a stretch, doesn't it?  And could even relate to improving general health, making limited changes to diet and exercise, or getting a bit more sleep.  There's no way to track the cause and effect.

So I may be fasting for nothing; the supposed benefits may not be real.  For plenty of others it's easy to accept what random web sources contribute, but for me it's not.  There's research on autophagy, but not so much on fasting effects.  It would be all but impossible to separate cause and effect in studies too.

Taking up another tangent, people might wonder if there aren't clear signs that the stress on your body is negative.  Wouldn't someone get sick more often, while not eating?  Kind of.  I get a minor sore throat sometimes, and sometimes taking some vitamin C clears that up, and at least once I've quit a fast because that seems to be a sign to.  In general not though.  

You feel stress, and hunger, and get a bit grumpy.  Energy level can vary some, but not at all like the crazy shifts for the first two to three fasts.  It would be better to start gradually, to minimize all of that, but of course I didn't.  I tried to fast for 5 days the first time, and figured out that not supplementing electrolytes wouldn't work.  I experienced common side effects, like problems sleeping, muscle cramping, and even perceived irregular heartbeat.  

Of course I quit that first fast when all of that came up.  I think that's an important part of it; striking a balance between being really committed to the fast and also being ok with giving it up if you feel sick, or if stress level goes too high.  I've been busy at work before and stopped a fast early; you have to keep track of how much stress still makes sense.

Now I can sleep fairly well, not so different than normally.  That is a bit odd, that not eating for days doesn't affect my sleep, at all.

Of course it makes you wonder if you aren't as sharp mentally, and might make some sort of mistake, driving, in work duties, or whatever else.  I minimize work impact by fasting on Wednesdays, normally, so the end of the fast is on the weekend.  I just said that the first half is worse, earlier on, but the first day is fine, and really only the second relates to more hunger.  Day three energy level varies, which isn't ideal, but starting a fast on Saturday would cause that on a Monday, which also wouldn't be great.  This week I'm fasting Monday to Friday, because my son stays with me, so I want to eat when he does on the weekend.

Update after the fast; how it went

It's Friday evening now, when I was scheduled to end the fast.  I'll often pull the plug two hours early, related to the time I took the last bite five days ago, going from dinner to dinner over those days.  It often works out that I ended eating at 7:30 or 8 to start, and it makes no sense to wait until 8 to eat to really fulfill that 120 hours (5x24).  Plenty of people approach it that way though, which is fine.

Today I ate at lunch; it might have only been 112, so hardly over 4 1/2 days.  Work has been really intense this week, involving a lot of productivity, meetings, and need to think a lot, and I wanted to be a little sharper for Friday afternoon.  I already knew that within the first hour or two after eating your body is kind of focused on digestion, with blood sugar from that only becoming available as it gets processed, so you don't snap right back to normal.  But it sort of worked; I could do work that last half of the day without counting down to when I would eat.

This fast seemed a little harsher than usual.  Taking 7 months off seemed to leave me less acclimated.  Or so I'm guessing; the busy work-week probably didn't help.  I was in a car accident the day before I started the fast, which was minor, so not a concern, but the stress level from that didn't make for a great start, going into it less relaxed.

I walked a lot less than I usually do.  Often I'll see a fast as a great time to get lots of steps in, because any energy used comes out of fat, and I'm not mainly doing it to lose weight, but I could use to lose a few pounds.  I'm up close to 80 kg or 180 pounds now, maybe a bit under both, and at 1.7 m / 5' 7" that's not so heavy, but it's more than I weighed in my 40s and earlier 50s.  I run, and less body weight is better, less stress on everything.

I'm not running now, for the last two weeks, because my right foot isn't ok, experiencing what seems to be an early start on bone spurs.  I've been running on it for three months anyway, just cutting back, but for pretty much every running injury I get that pattern plays out, that I cut distance and intensity back, and then only heal when I take a break for a few weeks, or a month.  So I'm not walking that much now either, but some.

What lessons did I learn?  Even after dozens of days of fasting, maybe 60 to 80?, the experience can still vary.  It's great if you can experience very little stress, and some unproductive time.  Ordinary life is harder during fasting.  I think it helps a lot with my mental clarity the rest of the time, and general health, so it's probably still a positive trade off, across lots of dimensions of my life.

Health issues: shingles and cardiac warning signs

 

The writing here is always so positive; why not communicate what goes well, and pass over what doesn't?  If I try a terrible tea I would probably not mention it, and mediocre experiences all the less.  

Recently I've been through some significant health problems, which I think might be relevant to others in different ways, so I'll break form and talk about that.

Six weeks or so ago I started experiencing pain related to shingles.  It took a few days to make that connection, and that was right when I was traveling back to Bangkok from Honolulu, so it took a full week to get that diagnosed and start treatment.  That's too long; you are generally in for a month or more of recovery if you get that late a start on treatment.  And I was; nearly a month after that the pain had finally mostly dropped out, and I started an experience of chest and shoulder pain concerns that may or may not have been related (per my doctors it wasn't, but the coincidence seems unlikely, given the overlap in symptoms range).

So let's start back with what shingles is, and how it goes, and then move on to the cardio issues, what investigation of that was like, and what it all means (to me; maybe there is no general meaning).

Shingles

Shingles is the experience of skin problems (rash / small blisters), itching, and nerve related pain.  It connects with earlier experience of chicken pox, from a long latent virus reactivating in late middle age at times of stress or reduced immune response.  I had that.  It started with low back pain, moved on to a rash on my leg, and then the pain moved to my leg.  You go on antiviral meds for a bit to help with it, but it also has to run its course, and if you get a late start on treatment that will go long, maybe months long.

It expanded what I've ever got around to experiencing of pain.  I always had a sense that when others described long term pain experience as profound and awful that I wasn't clear on forms of that.  The pain really wasn't that bad; with pain killer medication it was fine.  Without it sleep would've been quite problematic.  Nerve pain is a strange experience, nothing like a burn or an injury.  It runs deep, like a sharp cramp experience, that includes deeper pain effects, that just never stops.  My own experience was probably limited.  A more intense version would've been truly terrible.

Ramping up rest was one problematic part.  That's what got me into that condition, that I was way too busy for a week or two, or a month really, back in Honolulu, setting up my kids' education and life context there.  And I kept exercising.  Exercise helps my immune response, it seems to me, but without adequate rest it all just crashes.  

I tried to rest as much as possible during my shingles treatment, but a few hours of relative inactivity here or there was offset by staying busy just as often, for just as long.  Then you always wonder if the balance shouldn't have been different, as pain effects continue on for a few weeks, instead of the week or so that most infections or virus experiences take.  But a month later it all mostly cleared, only for something more troubling to start in.

Heart issues

Just as I was finally clearing the last of leg pain, after my skin had cleared, I started experiencing shoulder and back pain, and then chest pain.  On the left side too, roughly centered around my heart.  At first I wasn't very concerned, oddly, thinking this was just the next phase of the shingles experience.  I went back to a skin doctor, a different one, since mine was unavailable that day, who assured me it couldn't connect, and suggested that maybe I'd injured myself while sleeping.  I thought that myself at first, as I had about the back pain related to the start of the shingles.  But it worsened quickly, and centered more on my heart area.

I ended up seeing a cardiologist, of course; deep chest pain and radiating shoulder, back, and arm problems naturally lead to that.  After an initial EKG I did a stress test, a cool experience.  They check your heart with a sonogram / ultrasound, and put an EKG on you while you walk on a treadmill, ramping up to an 85% of maximum heart rate.  That worked out to 140 beats per minute, an interesting level assessment, to me, since I run, and track that while running.  I tend to run in between 135 and 145 bpm, with brief maximum periods of 160.  Of course I "aced" that test; they had to keep increasing speed and ramp inclination, until it was at 20% slope, going around 10 mph / 15 kph.

An anomaly turned up, an abnormal reading.  I couldn't really place that, and cardiologists seem to not be able to map out everything that potentially might mean.  Or maybe they just skip that part, since patients would listen to the worst of that range and think that they're dying.  They scheduled a CAT scan, just to check further.

That was a fascinating experience.  They don't just put you in that machine, like a giant tube; they use a "contrast media" injection to highlight what isn't getting blood flow in your heart.  You feel that course through you, rushing up to your head, then down through the rest of your body.  My results came back positive; I'm fine.  My doctor seemed a bit dismissive at that point, as if I was somehow making the whole thing up, or overreacting, in spite of me actually feeling chest pain, and the stress test turning up an anomaly on a stress-test EKG.

I ran the next day, of course, based on him saying I could do whatever I wanted, and stress tested myself in a different way, running for 45 minutes (7 km / 4 1/2 miles), half of it around 150 bpm.  I'm really ok.  Exercise always seems to help me clear health issues; I ran after 7 or 8 days of having Covid initially, and recovered from most symptoms within 12 hours of that experience.  That chest pain mostly resolved within 12 hours of running.

Did that issue connect to shingles?

Was it related to shingles?  I think so.  In researching shingles experience myself it can affect different internal organs, as it had also caused pain in my stomach earlier on.  My first skin doctor said that there could be no connection, because it's not on the same "nerve line."  But cardiac events and risk are said to be much higher after shingles outbreaks (not just Google AI's input; this is well established in mainstream medical background references, and research studies).

All throughout this experience of course it was problematic for me to second-guess doctor's input related to their conclusions.  I thought the chest pain probably connected to shingles, and none of the doctors did.  Then it wasn't clear whether it would matter or not.  Looking back if I had chest pain related to a coronary blockage that would've been much more serious, and if it was just extra, somewhat mobile pain experience then it wouldn't necessarily mean anything, or be a concern.  It had seemed that they should be able to test types and levels of antibodies to get a better feel for what was going on but their approach didn't work out like that.  Maybe that could work, or maybe not.

The part about real heart problems, added risk, connecting to shingles is something else.  Per what I'd read your risk of having a significant problem goes up by 30%; if you search just a little you'll see that number over and over.  So maybe I shouldn't have tested if I would really drop dead, based on running at roughly their computed 100% maximum capacity for nearly half an hour?  It was just my normal workout experience, which my doctor had okayed.  But probably I shouldn't have did that.

Lessons learned

This is the first time that I've been sick for a month that I can ever remember.  Maybe the first time?  A flu might run a little long, and Covid took over a week to clear, but that was about it.  So it has me re-thinking what longer term illness experience is all about.

At my age, 56, it's odd that I'm experiencing this only now.  I feel fortunate to have not had the experience before.

One thing that stood out was that timing of response for medical intervention depends a lot on what you have going on, which may not necessarily relate to severity of symptoms.  Shingles you want to start treating right away, within 3 days, if possible, and the skin rash part may not appear in that time-frame.  They can test for random pain issues being caused by that using an antibody test, so they can start treatment earlier.  But if your low back, or shoulder, experiences a bit of pain that's probably just related to pinching a nerve by sleeping in an odd position.  If the pain keeps changing form and location then maybe not.

Chest pain is kind of an odd special case.  My wife mentioned how her uncle had limited chest pain, or at least some sensation, then very pronounced pain in his jaw, and then he lost consciousness, all relatively quickly.  He had experienced a heart attack.  Luckily he lived, but not everyone having that experience does.

During my CAT scan experience they tested if the contrast media injection would work for the test, and found that it wouldn't, on my left side, the one I felt pain in.  Later the doctor explained that maybe the vein injection site was only leaking, it wasn't necessarily that I had major blood flow issues.  It wasn't comforting though, being there for a test to see if something was seriously wrong with me.

The subject of different types of pain comes up, at different levels, sharp or non-distinct, and in the odd form related to "nerve pain."  All pain would be nerve pain, but a subset related to a nerve issue, versus an injury, or other typical cause, can feel unusual, deeper, and pronounced in a different way.  They asked if the pain in my chest was like a squeezing effect, and I probably don't know what that's like just yet.  It was just a deep, localized, minor and dull pain.

I suppose there is a lot more I could say about medical treatment options or contexts in Bangkok, where I experienced all of this.  Back in the US it would have been a lot more complicated, and slower.  The cost would have been astronomical.  My work health care coverage is great, and treatment costs are moderate in general here anyway.

It brings up the subject of how medical care is a for-profit service industry in different places, in the US and here in Thailand, so how they treat you relates to the profit potential.  You being sick is a positive thing for the hospital, and quick recovery or resolution kind of isn't.  The hospital I visited, Bumrungrad, the main expat and medical tourism hospital, sells lots of "extra" medical care services, like longevity related treatments, bordering on or overlapping with spa themes.  You can buy someone a million baht gift card there ($30k USD, per an ad there), or download their app to manage payments.  In general people would probably want to get some limited treatment and get back out of there.

Another tangent; a social media podcaster's case

This leads to considering another person's case, the health issues experienced by Chris Williamson, a podcaster, described here.  He has experienced something I think of as mystery illness, for the last year and a half.  His version relates to feeling low in energy, with mood impact, and other general malaise symptoms.  

My brother, sister, and a close friend have different kinds of hard to interpret conditions; this theme seems more common than ever now.  My brother's case might be the most serious, involving lots of mixed health disruption, maybe mostly related to catching a lyme disease case late.  That friend might've experienced his condition being triggered through Covid (not "the jab," he had it before that came out).  Or he'd had a seemingly genetic condition that included sensitivity to different chemical inputs before that, to artificial fragrances and pollutants, and it could all connect.  My sister probably just had hard to interpret and treat digestion issues.  

The running theme I'm trying to address here is that although modern medicine can resolve some issues others seem to keep coming up.

Back to Chris Williamson's case he listed what seemed to be 8 or 9 potential causes, including lyme disease, mold contact, liver fluke parasites, and a longer list I'd have to rewatch that video to cite.  The specifics of his case weren't the interesting part, it was that someone in the relative peak of health might experience significant decline that they can't identify, even after a year and a half of relatively unlimited, in-depth review.  

A doctor's comment stood out to me there (in "the comments," not part of that content):  he suggested that it could just be stress related, and that a busy work schedule combined with a busy medical treatment schedule could be compounding his problem.  Of course a general audience can't guess about that, but it's an intriguing possibility, that seeking out a lot of seemingly valid health care may be making his problem worse, adding more life stress input, when that could be a main cause.

He didn't mention if he had tried taking a break.  It had seemed not.  He described his viewer count escalating, and at different points mentioned aspects of his very busy schedule.  That complex video, with references and clips in many locations, including those from a half a dozen health care professionals, and a few business associates and friends, would have taken months of input to put together, and maybe a few man-months of effort.  

He tells stories, so describing that one in detail would seem a natural step.  But there seemed to be an irony to him taking what must have been at least 100 hours of video to tell a story that's probably in part about him being overworked.  It has drawn 1.2 million views in 9 days, while an interview with Matthew McConaughey drew less than 800k, in two weeks. 

What that one doctor suggested, indirectly, is that maybe we all experience lots of negative health inputs that are simply the background condition we live with.  The parasites might be an exception, but viral load, some mold and other contamination contact, sleep disruption, stress, mixed diet inputs, and so on might be completely normal, even in partly negative forms.  Adjustments could be positive, but chasing down the last negative health input might be a secondary negative factor.  People really need to moderate stress, and get enough rest.

I'm not saying that feeling chest pain is something that people should just accept, or really closely connecting this to my own experiences.  But my mother made a good point, that to a very healthy person any random pain might seem anomalous and concerning, while for many people a list of aches and pains may just be a normal background experience.  If something new were to hurt that might not seem odd.

Chris Williamson doesn't seem to be overreacting to low energy or a bit of extra pain; as he frames it something is seriously wrong.  It would be odd if that's a reaction to long-term stress and being overworked, and something is very off, but it mostly relates to being really busy for years on end.  

It made me also consider if maybe there aren't other inputs at play, that are not mentioned in that video.  Plenty of people are into "biohacking" now, or at a minimum leaning into something like Adderall (stimulant) use to promote productivity.  Many people take a broad stack of supplements, to offset aging, support exercise recovery, limit effects of inflammation, or whatever other goals they pursue.  Maybe long term exposure to a mix of inputs finally "caught up" with Chris, and it's hard to walk back their negative effects, or even harder yet to identify what's not working out.  

Of course I wish him the best.  He's among the best of that kind of information and entertainment source, as I see it.  Whether he just needs a long break or if one or two main inputs is a cause I hope he gets it worked out.

Experiences with offsetting aging effects

This theme came up from discussion in a Reddit aging related sub-group, here.  The title for that post was "experiences with reversing aging," which this title version probably corrects a bit.  You can really offset some of the effects, maybe even reversing what is regarded as an irreversible outcome in some cases, but in general it's about positively affecting general health, not turning back the clock.  

To me it's not about aesthetics, but it could be for others.  It also doesn't tie so closely to health markers, from doing bloodwork (general health assessment), but I did just check those results within the last couple of months, and they look ok.  I missed the last two company health checks or I could've assessed changes.  I've started fasting practices and have escalated running volume over the last 2 1/2 years; those recent markers should be better than earlier ones.

Let's start with that post; it also includes limited intro, so a lot of that would be overdoing it:

It's not really one of my things, as it is with Bryan Johnson and those other typically sketchy aging research guys, but I've had limited experience with seeing the effects of aging reverse. My hair was greying some years ago, and it has almost entirely returned to the original color. To be more specific my son counted 13 grey hairs about two years ago, and there are just a few at my lower temple now.

To back up a little I'm 56. In some other ways, partly related to appearance, I haven't aged as fast as I might, with my skin holding up decently, not using reading glasses, still exercising, etc. I can't know direct causes but I'll speculate about that here.

I took up periodic fasting just over 2 years ago, now fasting 5 days at a time, 4 times a year, but it was more that first year, nearly a month in total. I've been running a lot for 3 or 4 years, but I've levelled off at being able to run 10 km three times a week; I can't seem to recover from more than that. I don't know if it makes a difference but I've been eating a little goji berry most days for a number of years (said to help maintain eye health). I've improved my diet quite a bit based on resetting it related to fasting, and have been keeping up with sleep for years. A long cycle of meditation practice may have helped with memory issues.

I have kids, and had them late, so most of that didn't apply in my 40s. I was definitely out of shape over that decade, not exercising much, but I stayed active. I suspect that being a little underweight during my 20s and 30s, related to being a vegetarian then, may have been an earlier cause for slower aging.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend that people try to suspend aging, but maintaining exceptional health seems reasonable.

Feb. 2025; looking a bit middle-aged, ok for 56

The "typically sketchy" part, about aging researchers, relates to them often seeming to package a product as much as search for answers for the benefit of society.  It's as well to not get side-tracked on that critique; parts of the research must hold up to further review, and will benefit many people.

Commentary

That group focus on a narrow range helped shaped what I tried to communicate there, on aging as affecting appearance and some narrow ranges of health.  Without that group-location framing I'd tend to focus more on discussion of just improving health, in general.  I'm also in a biohacking group on Reddit, which I might comment in but never post to, which would be more concerned with supplements, especially experimental versions.  Some people there see fasting as a functional form of biohacking.

Since I don't know the cause and effect sequences of making a few lifestyle input changes it's all vague enough.  I think fasting made a lot of difference, but any positive changes could have related mainly to better diet and getting more exercise.  I'll run through some potential positive changes in more detail here.

Life and location change as a possible input:  three years ago my family moved our kids to Honolulu, Hawaii to go to school here instead of Bangkok, intending to relocate my work, which never worked out.  I've been back and forth since, spending most of my time still in Bangkok, and working remotely part of the time.  

It may be that living a more active life in Hawaii changes things, even though I've only been spending 3 months a year here, while they spend 9.  I swam a lot this spring (in March through the end of May); an input like that couldn't hurt.  "A lot" is relative; I was swimming about 500 meters about 3 days a week, in the open ocean, out to a flag and back in a swim lane.  My son trains for competitive swimming and his daily practices cover a lot more distance, every day versus my weekly total.

out for an early run around Diamondhead

I swim out to that flag, and see turtles there (tourist for scale)

Diamondhead from my daughter's former school

Genetic factors:  one input I see as relating to appearing younger is kind of a random thing:  I have oily skin.  If I don't shower twice a day I end up looking a bit greasy, while living in a warm or hot climate.  That may be relatively equivalent to people using a lot of moisturizer in a cooler and dryer place (which I don't use).  My sister also looks quite young, also in her 50s, and good genetics for aging gradually probably go well beyond that.

these guys are holding up well

Food preferences probably have a lot of effect, along with eating what might be considered a good diet.  The luck of the draw might factor in, related to the former.  Thai food is typically based on natural, whole foods, not involving that much processing, even though use of frying and addition of some sugar does come up. 

I drink an awful lot of tea; it's odd that I didn't mention that in passing in that post.  I've considered before that beyond some polyphenols potentially supporting health, or offsetting aging effects, just ingesting extra minerals every day might make a difference.  Tea plants collect and store minerals, in addition to some contaminants, so I may be keeping topped up on a range of minerals.  Who knows about effects beyond that; maybe it is unusually healthy.

I started drinking coffee again within the last 6 months.  I can't imagine that's having a lot of effect either way, especially since I never drink more than one large cup a day (maybe 10 to 12 ounces), but it's an example of how other inputs keep shifting.  I last meditated regularly nearly two years ago; that's another example of ongoing changes.

Supplements, including anti-aging supplements:  I mostly take a multivitamin, magnesium, and D when I'm not getting that much sun.  I was also taking fish oil for awhile, and replace some salt intake with a potassium chloride based salt product; that's about it.

I also eat some goji berries most days, which is said to contain zeaxanthin, one of two compounds that promote eye health (along with lutein).  My wife said that it would help with eye health and hair loss, but who knows about traditional Thai medical claims.  It seemed like a bit of extra vitamin A couldn't hurt; those are supposedly a good source of that.

There are a broad range of other supplement or drug compounds being developed and tested now, but I don't really investigate those much, never mind taking any.  I'm more ok with aging normally than being a test subject, even though I am concerned enough about health to put effort into all of it.

Recommendations, and justification for them

Exercise:  there's no need to justify endorsing exercise, right?  I can add that running just a little early in my practice, starting nearly 7 years ago, seemed to make a lot of difference, but my cardio conditioning only improved once I ramped up volume.  I run 20 miles / 30 km a week when I'm more active, and maybe two thirds of that when I'm inconsistent, with some extra multiple week periods "off" in the past year or so.  I was more consistent and diligent before moving back and forth to Hawaii made that difficult.  It's not about making the time, or jet-lag disruption, but instead valuing the time with my kids in a different way after we re-unite.

If I run consistently for about 6 weeks my conditioning will change a good bit right around that time, but if I run consistently for only a month it won't.  I'm not implying that your health would change a lot, if you could lean into it all for 2 to 3 months.  Maybe that's true, and probably race conditioning works like that, but I don't know what supports general health well enough, versus what will "drop time" on training paces.

Fasting:  I suspect that fasting makes a lot of difference, but I'm not completely sold on hearsay related to autophagy, the process of your body recycling mis-folded proteins or whatever other damaged material.  Supposedly this always occurs in your body, and helps offset varying long term health issues, but vigorous exercise triggers more of it, or fasting for around 48 hours or longer does.  But if you try to look up research papers linking that this does occur, and that it relates to specific health-related outcomes, it's not easy making the connections.  

Again this isn't a claim either way.  I suspect that I am slightly mentally clearer related to periodic extended fasting, but who knows.  You could observe what you expect to, to some extent.  I also feel like I have more energy when running, that maybe greater "metabolic flexibility" helps with that, training my body to also use fat as an energy source.  I don't mind at all when meals run late, or skipping one is fine; I'm a lot less constrained by habitual eating now.

Diet changes:  my diet was never bad enough for me to see change effects in the same way someone moving off a truly bad diet could.  I took up being a vegetarian over 30 years ago, and tried to eat a healthy, balanced diet based on essentially no actual meat input for that next 17 years.  I was the "lacto-ovo" type; I still ate dairy and eggs, thinking that it would help me avoid deficiencies.  Then I think the deficiencies did enter in, around 13 years ago now, and my immune system stopped working normally.  I had been fine for that first decade, living in the US, watching my diet and eating supplements to help, but after I moved to Thailand I ate meat-based dishes without the meat, and it wasn't the same.  More idle speculation, probably, but that was my take.

So I'm describing improving an already pretty decent diet over the last few years, already based on input of plenty of fruits and vegetables, and whole grains, along with good quality meats input.  I've not eaten much for junk food, processed snacks, and fast food for a long time, with the exception of eating a good bit of ice cream.  Moving back to the US did add some challenges, since it's easy to appreciate different kinds of snack foods, that weren't options back in Thailand.  Those tubs of chocolate chip cookie dough are nice; I may have noticed the input of eating that on my body weight and cholesterol score.

Summary perspective:  the implied claim here, in all of this, is that I feel like I'm really 30 or 40, and not 56, and I guess that sort of holds up.  My exercise recovery is a lot slower; it's all that I can do to recover from around 30 km of running a week (20 miles), which to me doesn't seem like that much.  I switched to 12 km runs here in Honolulu, with hill sections (running around Diamondhead), and I could keep that up indefinitely on an 8-day, 3 run cycle, but not quite 3 times a week.  With more conditioning I could've got there; I was trying to ramp up and maintain that within a 2 month or so cycle.  But it's hard to make changes to training volume or intensity at this age, and I've experienced very minor injuries before that highlight that those can only occur gradually.

I guess that I feel fine.  I keep busy and active, walking a lot, doing many other things, and never feel like it's too much.  I don't notice much for aches and pains, or digestive system changes, or whatever else.  I really did feel less clear in my early 40s, when I was still adjusting to a busy office-life experience, but adding running seems to have resolved some of that.

I wouldn't consider TRT / HRT because all of that seems fine to me.  I don't see anything wrong with others making that choice, but I don't experience any of the other symptoms it's supposed to correct for (low energy, mood issues, problems with exercise, body composition, or sexual function, etc.).

Recommendations:  I should close this by recommending truly low-hanging fruit, what I think would make the most difference the fastest.  It's diet change.  For people accustomed to drinking soda just dropping that out would make a lot of difference.  Drinking water should be fine, or tea or coffee as a healthy input, or tisanes, herb teas.  Maybe drinking enough water alone would make a difference, versus falling short daily, or just getting enough sleep.

Changing diet could relate to making small, periodic changes, like swapping out fast food for cooking healthy natural food versions, or chips for nuts, or maybe replacing processed deserts with fruit.  Fasting makes this easy, because it's easy to see each break and renewed eating cycle as a reset.  But there must be other ways to push the same effect, like making a few small changes at the start of every month.  I "only" fast about 20 days a year, so not a high proportion, and I've gained weight over the past two years, so using fasting to lose weight would require a more specific focus on that.

Listening to your body is important.  The amount of sleep that's enough would vary by person.  Poor diet inputs or unusually helpful inputs also would vary by person in relation to positive or negative impact.  Related to exercise more would be better up to a point, but at middle age injury is an early warning sign that you're progressing too fast, and that's no good.

Being open to life changes may make a difference.  Of course it would help if those are positive.  I went through a period of meditating a lot, the second I've experienced in my life, and that seemed to help.  Getting a new pet can change things in a positive way (although losing one can also be really rough).  Life connections and activities seem to make a lot of difference.

Having kids late seemed to help.  I've been playing in kids' play areas for years (14 or 15), going to water parks, ice skating (a lot; the kids took lessons), biking and hiking with them, and so on.  That decade off exercise involved a lot of activity.  Some of it is just mental, not seeing yourself as sedentary and inactive, but it seems important for that to connect to physical activity.  I don't think it needs to be all that strenuous; hanging out laundry or doing gardening could be enough, to maintain flexibility through varied movement.

my other babies; I miss them terribly, while I'm away for this month

Beyond all of this I think accepting long-term transitions like aging is helpful.  You can focus on health, and change that, and some "symptoms" might diminish.  But in general life is about change, and walking a changing path, so feeling negatively about that context could be unhelpful.  Leaning into whatever activity works for you could tie in with feeling positive about your capacity, and enjoying different activities.  We--as a family, essentially--took up pickleball this year; it's nice when those can involve some limited exercise.

more on this here, especially relevant to people in Honolulu

good experience of meaning can't hurt

Fasting introduction; how to water fast for multiple days

 

shou / shu pu'er is best for fasting, very mild on your stomach

This topic came up in online discussion recently, one that I've written quite a bit about here.  Earlier posts were never really designed as a short introduction and how-to, so to supplement that other discussion I'll write that out here.  To be clear I might have only fasted for a total of 60 days or so, so I'm definitely no expert, really only getting started myself.  

Before getting into that I think a couple of preliminary factors apply:

1.  Why fast?

That discussion was about potential anti-aging benefits, and I guess that is one reason.  I've almost entirely reversed my experience of greying hair, probably from this input, over the course of the first year, or maybe less.  Of course I didn't take up fasting for that reason.  It is claimed to reduce risk of severe illnesses, especially cancer and diabetes, and it was partly about that.  But who knows about that, really.

It's also supposed to improve energy level, especially metabolic flexibility, use of internal fat for metabolism.  And to improve mental clarity, which I guess could've happened, but it's hard to track.  And it's hard to separate causes; I've been exercising more than ever and eating a better diet since I started fasting, about 2 1/2 years ago.  

Of course people also fast for weight loss, but that often may not work as well as expected.  I think my metabolism may have slowed slightly, related to fasting practices, and I've gained a few pounds in that 2 1/2 years.  It could just be muscle mass gain; I am exercising quite a bit, running 20 miles per week most weeks, swimming more than ever, and dabbling in pickleball most recently.

a picture from my running route this week; it's nice here, in Honolulu

2.  Are there risks?

There are risks related to almost everything, including fasting.  In general it's accepted as very safe to fast, by fasting practitioners, but it's probably not safe to fast for 3 days or longer without supplementing electrolytes (sodium, potassium, and magnesium).  Low levels of those will cause low energy level, headaches, muscle cramps, brain fog, dizziness, and problems sleeping.  

How much to supplement, and in what form, is quite complicated.  You can't take pills to supplement salts (what those are), because the volume is too high, and any type of tablet form could become stuck to the lining of your stomach and cause a problem.  Magnesium might be the exception to that; you only need to supplement about 400 mg a day of that, versus 1 to 2 grams of the other two (with that requirement varying by different factors).

I definitely wouldn't recommend ramping up fasting practices quickly; it would be better to give your body time to adjust to the new experiences.  Some degree of hunger experience is normal, of course, and also disrupted energy level and mental focus.  After 2 or 3 trials of an extended fast all of that subsides quite a bit, and your mental clarity actually improves, energy level is quite consistent, even high.  Later hunger experience takes on a completely different form, much reduced in intensity.

This isn't a comprehensive listing of risks.  Specific pre-existing conditions could connect with more serious risks.  In case of any concerns consulting a doctor would be best.

General approach

There's not so much to it; you supplement electrolytes, drink plenty of water, and don't eat.  Most people will consume coffee, tea, or tisanes (herb teas), and some will drink diet sodas, while others won't.  Anything containing next to no calories won't break a fast.  Something like adding lemon slices to water might constitute a grey area; there is some calorie input in that, so most people who fast wouldn't do this, but it probably wouldn't change much.  Discussion of bone broth as an input comes up; if that contains any calories, as it generally would, that would break the fast.  I won't take vitamin C tablets that contain 10 calories, typically, but I suppose in a special case I might make an exception, if my throat felt a little sore, for example.

The concern isn't necessarily the idea of pure fasting, instead that ingesting any calories could trigger hunger response and digestive system activity, even when that's as limited as a cough drop.  It's as well to err on the lower side.  Some people would continue taking multi-vitamins, and other supplements, and some see it as a good time to take a break from those, as something along the line of a "detox," a concept typically not utilized by most in discussion of fasting, per my experience.

To begin fasting one might do well to employ a staged approach, trying out limited period eating first (within a 4 hour window, for example), then 24 hour fasts, on to two days, and so on.  There is no need to try 3 to 4 days on an early attempt.  I did, but I'm communicating this to help others learn from my mistakes.  Experience of hunger over the first 48 hours is severe, and it doesn't decrease much over the next 2 or 3 days.  Your body can adjust to use body fat as an effective energy source, which is very readily available, there just for that purpose, but you need to condition yourself to do so.

How to supplement electrolytes

This is a lot more complicated than it probably first seems.  A first inclination is to buy a pre-mixed, flavored, pre-measured packet, like LMNT products.  That could work.  Even using this approach someone should consult a decent reference about daily requirements in relation to fasting, because the included levels may not be optimized for that.  

This Reddit fasting sub wiki could be helpful.  I think that recommendation range is a bit high, extending up to 6 grams a day of sodium and 4.7 grams of potassium.  My guess is that few people could tolerate anywhere near those amounts.  Everyone would need to experiment to see what works best for them anyway, probably starting much lower in the range.  Their magnesium recommendation of 300-400 mg per day seems about right, and that may be somewhat universally applicable.  The low end of the range they recommend, on the order of a gram a day for both sodium and potassium, might work for a starting point.  Note that this would be the weight of the sodium and potassium in the related compounds, not the amount of total salt, including the "chloride" or whatever else.

It's possible to use very common, inexpensive sources for these salts.  Sodium can be consumed as table salt, or alternatively from baking soda.  Potassium is most typically encountered as potassium chloride, although there must be other forms.  Magnesium is more complicated, since many people report experiencing strong laxative effects from some forms.  It all requires more consideration and review than I'll try to support here.  In theory food-grade versions of epsom salt could supplement magnesium, but that form, magnesium sulfate, may really act as a stronger laxative than other compound versions.

That Reddit sub wiki recommends making up a "snake juice" daily supplementation mix and drinking that, along with extra water intake.  That does work, but drinking salt water can seem a bit rough, even diluted forms.  I've experimented with variations of that practice, and for me it works best to drink a good bit sort of as meals, 3 to 4 times a day.  For sure even sodium and potassium can act as a powerful laxative if you ingest too much too quickly; everyone taking up fasting has that experience at some point.  I can't stand the taste of baking soda in such a mix; that kind of factor enters in.  

Flavoring that mix might be promising, but many people adjust to tolerating it without that step.  There are two schools of thought about stevia and artificial sweetener input, which could relate to this.  One take is that it can cause an insulin release response, and the other is that it probably doesn't.  I don't drink much for sweetened tisanes or diet sodas but I've not noticed any related effects when I have, any problems of any kind.

Muscle cramps are one clear sign that your electrolyte balance is off, or trouble sleeping could be.  I sleep well while fasting, in general, but while exploring electrolyte supplementation I often didn't.

Drinking a lot of water seems crucial.  Some people report good results from drinking an awful lot, much more than 2 liters a day, so I suppose it comes down to personal judgment and experimentation.

Limitations of fasting, related practices

You can exercise while fasting; that seems to work.  I keep intensity moderate, and have evolved practice to use it as a good time for a break from running, but I do tend to walk a lot while I fast.  It keeps my energy level up, and helps me shift over to the experience ketosis faster over the first two days.

In fasting circles discussion the main restriction is on discussing that you are fasting, with anyone, under any circumstances.  I don't observe this, but I get it.  Some people are put off by it, and in one discussion account their company's HR department required them to stop the fast.  It's a judgment call.  People do have an aversion to practices that are completely unfamiliar to them, so in general discussing fasting isn't met with acceptance or interest.

I work well while fasting; the busier I stay the easier it is, and my productivity level can be even higher than when I'm not fasting.  The extra mental clarity, after you adjust to it, is really something to experience.  Flashes of creative insight and productivity can be quite an experience, surpassing what I almost ever go through at other times.

How long someone can or should fast is relatively open, or duration over time.  It depends on the purpose.  People trying to lose weight describe fasting for up to 3 weeks or so in that fasting group; beyond that many report relatively severe side effects, or some in even less time.  Most people there adopt periodic fasting instead, like rotating 3 or 4 day fasting and eating periods (rolling 48s or 72s).  

This is just my take, but it would intuitively seem necessary to eat a very nutritionally balanced diet while trying to pull that off, during the days that one eats, including plenty of protein, healthy fats, and micronutrients.  Additionally supplementation through multi-vitamins might make a lot of difference.  I wouldn't undertake such a practice myself, but then I've not been trying to lose weight.

I fast for 5 days at a time, generally 4 times per year.  For someone trying to maximize or optimize the types of inputs I'm going after, improved general health, and experience of autophagy (cellular recycling), that might be sufficient, or alternating 4 day fasts every other month could be a next further step.  Maybe someone could obtain most of the same benefits only fasting every 6 months, for that same period, 5 days.  To me it helps to not go too long in between fasts to retain the acclimation to the experience.

Other sub-themes

There are so many other related sub-themes one might venture into.  Is it dangerous to break a fast by eating a lot of sugar, or too much food?  Yes, but not so much for shorter fasts, for a period of a week or less.  You definitely should break a fast by eating healthy food though, no junk food, fast food, or high sugar content foods.  Even very high fiber it would be best to avoid, resetting your digestive system with easy to process, balanced foods.  I often broke fasts by eating a healthy version of a burger and fries, so it doesn't need to be so healthy, or as easy to digest as rice soup.  Then I tried it using McDonald's food once, when time was tight, and it took days for my digestive system to recover.  I guess I had that coming, for straying so far from common sense.

Drinking bone broth comes up as a topic, both in relation to a question about whether it would break a fast (it would; even minimal calorie input breaks a fast), and related to a potential input to re-start digestion.  If someone fasts for two weeks or longer you need to re-feed in a much more careful, controlled way, or it really can be quite dangerous.  In such a case using bone broth as a gradual resumption of digestion could work well, according to plenty of discussion input.  But this is a topic I have no first-hand experience with, to be clear; I've only ever fasted for five days at a time.

People ask about what can offset hunger when fasting, if drinking water or salt-water might work, or if there are other "hacks."  It can't hurt to drink a little water or salt-water, but in general the hunger experience is just part of it, kind of unavoidable.  It subsides after 2 or 3 trials, but in those first rounds it's rough.  Your stomach might rumble or produce some gas, and thoughts of food don't quiet down.  Again I think gradually building up to longer periods--5 days; not multi-week fasts--might help.  To me there is no reason why one would need to go further, why fasting for a week or longer would make sense.  Autophagy is said to peak at or after 48 hours, so a 5 day break goes plenty beyond that.

Even though I've said that I've not used fasting for weight loss I can pass on speculation about how that might work.  I reset my diet to be just a little cleaner and healthier after every fast, and I think an approach like this could work.  You could reset, re-start eating, at a slight calorie deficit, switching to 1800-2000 calories per day, if you normally eat more.  You might just reset your metabolism to be slower, instead of inducing gradual weight loss, so it might work as an option to try dropping to 1500 calories for a couple of extra weeks.  Given that fasting could cause micro-nutrient gaps restarting diet to be much healthier than normal would make sense, especially if the idea is to eat less.  If you wake up and eat a few frozen waffles with syrup and then skip eating until dinner your diet will be essentially empty.

One main theme that people lean into in a fasting sub (group) is drawing on support from others to continue a fast, often supported by using an app to track fasting time.  I don't do any of that.  I wouldn't need a timer counting down hours across a period of five days, because I already know exactly when I started.  It wouldn't help me to know that a few internet strangers were also not eating at the same time.  But I don't think that my own approach and preferences are necessarily better for any reason.

I'm also not careful about making sure that I fast for the entire 120 hours (5 days); I tend to start a fast after dinner the first day, and eat a normal dinner on the last, so I would really only fast for 4 days and 22 hours, or so.  These types of practices and preferences vary by person; I get it why crossing the actual finish line makes a lot of difference for most people, as a personal victory.  I would just as soon not re-start eating right before sleeping on that last day, so those kinds of concerns also factor in.

I've not mentioned when I would stop a fast, under what circumstances.  If I feel sick I might, unless symptoms are very mild.  If something feels off I would stop.  I've started to get sick before, the stage prior to the normal symptoms, sore throat and such, and resuming eating a day or two early has seemed to cut short that illness experience to follow.

The only times fasting has seemed to cause atypical health issues seemed to relate to getting electrolyte supplementation wrong, early on.  Experience of an irregular heartbeat is especially concerning; when that occurs I would stop the fast.  I have experienced plenty of hunger, of course, and energy level fluctuation and limited dizziness is normal.  If I feel off drinking a round of tisane (herb tea) seems to correct for that.  In some cases I may just be getting behind on hydration, so that it's really the water in the herb tea that's making the difference.  Drinking a bit of salt water, supplementing some extra sodium and potassium, will often make a difference.  I tend to take magnesium as tablets or capsules, a couple of times a day, so it's easy to keep up with that input.

Conclusions

I don't tend to recommend fasting often because it's just too extreme a practice for most people.  Maybe not as much in other cultures with that practice as a component, but most Thais and Americans certainly can't relate to it.  Since I don't really recommend it for weight loss, as covered here, it's hard to suggest with certainty that it's great for general health, even though that is my understanding.  I think my general mental clarity has improved since fasting, and again I lost the experience of greying hair, which may well connect with other forms of internal systems health that is less obvious.

It's a little harder than I've let on, especially for the first 2 or 3 fasts.  Hunger experience is profound.  I think someone could avoid most of that by using a staged, progressive approach, as I've described.  Now when fasting I can go hours of the day without thinking about food at all.  The sharp, intense experience of hunger no longer occurs, and a dull empty feeling is quite diminished.  It does add some tension, or light underlying mental stress, that never completely goes away.  I find this comparable to the off feeling related to being jet-lagged; something isn't completely normal, for days.  Over time being jet-lagged seems normal to you though, and so does fasting experience, to an extent.

Optimum timing would vary by schedule demands, and how someone relates to different phases of the experience.  To me the first day is very easy, the second sometimes relates to the most experience of hunger, and on day three adjustment of energy level can occur.  Then days 4 and 5 tend to be easier, but mental tension can increase a little.  It seemed to work out well to start fasting on a Wednesday, on work-weeks, because that day is the easiest, and weathering Friday was the main concern.  Then fasting on off-work days was easy, because I could add a nap to offset energy issues, or make the time go faster, and watch more video content to stay distracted.

I think in the future fasting will become much more accepted, in "the West," but not any time soon. We're just not there yet.  Isolated positive accounts will continue to enter into public awareness, but it will probably take years for this kind of experience to become more mainstream.  It's trending more lately, and plenty of health-guru types now recommend it, especially more science-oriented examples of that broad type, like Huberman and the like.  Even so I think people will take up easier versions of their trend-oriented recommendations first, like trying to get some sun exposure in the morning, or ice baths.  It's much easier to exercise than to fast, and a little of that exposure goes a long way for general health.

Anti-aging protocol

 

This is something I've ended up discussing a good bit over the past few years, one of many subjects I've become interested in.  My fasting practice ties to an interest in this, even though it started as a result of a chance contact saying that it would bring about spiritual practice benefits (and maybe it did?  hard to say, since that is hard to track).

I'm no expert on avoiding aging effects, but I am a good example of how it can work out.  I'm 56 now and could pass for 40, or maybe even 30-something, and I am active to say the least.  I've just switched my runs back to 12 km per outing, not quite at 3 times per week, but it will level off to at least 30 km / 20 miles per week.  It's hard to justify that I'm more active in general, or more flexible related to being open to new experiences and learning, the less explicit themes related to aging.  It seems so, to me, but it's hard to support that.

56 compared to 16, but I think his genetic potential might be even better

It's strange using yourself as an example like that.  The same general theme came up related to discussing intelligence on Quora before, a favorite topic earlier on.  I'll skip passing on an IQ stat but mine has been tested at significantly higher than the 130 cut-off for grade-school gifted program participation.  People there--Quora--would always claim "intelligent people are less socially oriented," or something such, prone to whatever other malaise, but to me a lot of that ends up being hearsay patterns that don't necessarily hold up in most cases.  Intelligence is like any other aptitude; it can couple with a broad range of personal characters or other aptitudes and weaknesses.  

The nerd or geek persona is separate from intelligence; the two themes may tend to correspond, but they are not tightly causally connected.  Maybe people embracing those character or self-identification themes tend to be above average in intelligence, but it's not as if one is a sign of the other, or that intelligence leads directly to preference of those forms of experience (an interest in sci-fi or computers, etc.).  Somehow it all naturally groups together, that people with certain capacities tend to explore using them in similar ways, but there is no necessary connection.  Plenty of people with sports aptitude are couch potatoes, and plenty of people with very limited athletic potential are still active in sports anyway, they just couldn't excel at the highest levels of competition.

Back to the aging theme; I was responding to this question on Reddit:

If you are aging, what if any supplements did you take in order that you thought might reverse aging or made you feel decades younger again? I mean do you have a sip of certain juice a day or take something to make yourself feel decades younger?

Who isn't aging?  Of course people there recommended diet and exercise, as I did.  But I added some less standard thoughts and practices.

Nothing like that [referring to the magic bullet / take a pill potential], but I can suggest things I know work, for sure, and a couple that might help that are less certain:

exercise: you should try to get at least 3 hours of medium intensity exercise per week. If you want to use weightlifting as this input, to double up on improving muscle conditioning and joint health, you can just increase overall intensity by rushing the sets. Some input should be cardio though; intense beyond walking pace input.

sleep: 8 hours per day is an absolute minimum, unless you somehow don't need much sleep. Coupling a bit of extra sleep with bumping up exercise input will change everything, along with diet change.

diet: cut out processed foods, sugar, junk foods, fast food, unhealthy snacks, etc. Eat natural foods, meats, vegetables and fruits, some whole-grain starch input. Nuts and beans can help with keeping protein intake up, which is important for exercise recovery. You probably don't need to supplement much if your diet is great, but taking a multivitamin couldn't hurt, and some basics like extra magnesium and D.

drugs, cigarettes, alcohol: get away from ingesting any.

tea (onto less certain input): I drink lots of varied tea, of good quality, and that may make a difference (I'm holding up great for being 56). Lots of the polyphenols are probably helpful, along with mineral input. People claim green tea is best for heart health (cardiovascular health), but I think drinking diverse versions would be better, black, green, oolong, sheng pu'er, some hei cha, etc.

goji berry: I eat a little of this daily, re-hydrated dried versions soaked in hot water for some minutes. The extra vitamin A (beta carotine) and xeaxanthin might be most helpful. It's probably good for eye health to also take in a good bit of lutein, but eating leafy green vegetables would cover that.

fasting: this should probably be back in the "certain" grouping. Fasting for 3 to 5 days at a time, at least 4 times per year, could change everything related to aging experience. I think my greying hair reversed mainly because of this input; it had been partly grey, and now isn't. Brain health seems to also improve, mental clarity and memory, which is difficult to achieve.

from 2024, but I don't have many clear photos of myself

Expanding on that:

What about new types of supplements anti-aging gurus promote?  Maybe those could work.  I wouldn't know, since I'm not on any.  I've not even had my hormone levels checked, a far earlier and more basic starting point than taking up hormone inputs or exotic supplements.

What about specific exercise inputs, adjusted sleep forms, less developed supplementation (taking zinc or turmeric / curcumin), specific diet forms (towards keto, Mediterranean, etc.)?  Sure, lots of approaches or inputs might be positive.  Per my understanding being quite active is the main helpful input, walking a lot, doing lots of low intensity activities, like laundry, cutting firewood, walking and hiking, swimming, and so on.  Even gardening, doing lots of very low intensity tasks, supports maintaining flexibility, by forcing you to move in different ways, with significant exposure level.

Getting some sun alone could be helpful.  It could be hard separating causes and effects, related to an input like that.  If someone were to swap out lying motionless while watching streamed video content for walking in the sun they'd never know which input helped most, the sun, the walking, or just not lying motionless.

I think diet alone has the most potential for change, especially if someone is on the standard American diet.  I've been moving back and forth between Bangkok and Honolulu and it takes a lot more focus to maintain a decent diet here (I'm in Hawaii just now).  In Bangkok fresh fruit is sold everywhere, exotic and delicious tropical versions, and even street foods can be relatively healthy, those literally sold from carts out on the sidewalks.  And inexpensive; it costs $20 for just about any meal in Hawaii, and probably over $30 if it's actually healthy.  

"Juicing" has lots of potential; drinking a bit of mixed vegetable juice every day, as the kind of extra bump the original question was asking about.  I practiced that at two different times in my life, probably over a period of at least a half dozen years, or maybe closer to a decade.  I was also a vegetarian for 17 years; maybe that helped?  Often with special diets the inclination to avoid some inputs, like over-eating, or junk foods, might be more important than what you actually consume.  A vegetarian and keto or carnivore diet might end up providing similar benefits for similar reasons, for those limitations, even though the apparent diet input is completely opposite.  Maintaining moderate body weight could be the overall main factor, in limiting aging, and eating a good diet and exercising could help lead to this, but from different directions.

Of course exercise inputs have plenty of potential too.  My health radically improved when I took up running, back at 50, and it improved again when I conditioned enough to ramp up training intensity and volume.  Swimming here in Hawaii has seemed to improve my muscle tone and flexibility quite a bit.  Doing yoga when I was 50 to 52 made a lot of difference, but Covid closed our local favorite yoga studio, so I let that go.

I swim in a swim lane between coral reefs not far from here

Fasting practice is especially promising.  It's too long a subject to add much more about why I think it helps (in a word, autophagy), or approaches that might be best.

I can't really place tea as a positive input either.  Research evidence of tea being quite healthy is very mixed in forms and results.  It probably is, but it's not the simplest thing to test for, and there is limited academic interest in reviewing that, since there is limited corporate commercial interest in leveraging tea sales as a health input.  In the US health care of sick people is far more profitable than preventing illness, especially through inexpensive food inputs.  There's a lot one might consider in relation to Traditional Chinese Medicine perspective on how tea is healthy, and in what optimum forms, which would vary by individual related to best fit or best overall balance.  I drank a lot of tisanes from the age of 22 up to 40; it's not just "real tea" that would have a lot of potential. 

Health risks related to tea are a potential concern, but there isn't a lot to look out for.  Caffeine intake should only go so far, and fluoride input is something to think through.  If you drink high quality tea (less mass-produced, chemical supported growth versions) risks from pesticides and heavy metal inputs are probably quite limited.  There are outliers claiming there are more significant, common risks to avoid, but in my opinion as long as you don't take a "more is better" approach to input tea is very safe.  Consuming up to 20 grams per day of it should be fine.  

You can offset any potential risks by varying types and sources.  You could maximize those risks in the opposite way, buying a kilogram of the most inexpensive, questionable tea you can find from an Indian or Chinese market source, maximizing your contact with those somewhat rare inputs by concentrating the same exposure form.  I don't necessarily trust all the "wild origin" claims I hear, but if half of the tea I consume really is of that form that seems positive, and at this point most of what I drink is represented as such.

One might wonder what all of this is based on, beyond my own personal experience, and where it ends, what aging is likely to be like in one's 70s or 80s, if all goes well.  My parents have observed many of these practices, and are in great health at nearly 80.  Many of my family members lived healthy lives well into their 90s (which of course introduces a potential genetic input).  My Thai mother-in-law is from a family where people tend to not experience much of their 60s and she is holding up well at over 80 now.  Activity seemed to make a difference, and decent diet.  Her sleep regimen is awful, and she never does significant cardio stress exercise; one might get away with letting one of these positive inputs drop.  Her mobility is severely limited now; any gap may come at a price.

I hope that some of this is helpful to others.  There's more I could add about perspective shift that might help, about meditation as an input, for example, but I'll get back to that kind of thing more later.

my wife Eye also holds up pretty well in spite of only experiencing some of these themes

Are slimming tea products unethical?

 

It seems strange asking and answering this question; all of this was sorted out and overdone years ago, and has went quiet since.  A new producer brings it all up again.

I'll start with the short answer, or at least my take:  yes, slimming tea products are unethical.  

At least in the most common form they occur in.  Exceptions are possible; that's a lot of what I'm discussing here.

The main theme is using "real tea," or just other herbal ingredients, to serve as a laxative and diuretic, to cause people to lose water weight and speed up bowel movement processing.  Both will cause a temporary weight loss effect, but neither is "slimming" in the sense of helping someone lose body fat, the main intended meaning.  Both are relatively unhealthy, since maintaining normal digestion and appropriate hydration level is more optimum, and adjusting and disrupting these is less healthy.

What about a stimulant effect; couldn't that help with weight loss?  Yes, to a limited extent.  Caffeine already is a stimulant, present in every kind of "real tea," camellia sinensis based versions, and adding more of that, or that plus some other stimulant, is probably not a good idea.  It doesn't really work to speed up metabolism to lose weight anyway; it's far superior to adjust diet inputs, to ingest less calories.

I can easily enough explain why that is.  I run a good bit, 10 km / 6.4 miles per outing, three times a week (typically), for a total of 20 miles or 30 km per week.  According to a tracking app that burns about 600 calories per outing, towards 2000 per week; that's a good start.  But it's not hard at all to eat an extra 600 calories per day, and certainly not 300, working back to a weekly average.  Revving up metabolism an equivalent amount through stimulants lands on the same result, that it's not helpful unless daily dietary intake and expenditure balance.  

If medium-high exercise for three hours a week "only" burns up an additional 2000 calories, or about that, stacking an extra stimulant on top of ingesting caffeine would need to make a significant difference--and have potentially significant negative side effects--to achieve the same outcome.  Then eating or otherwise consuming an extra 300 calories per day would be easy; it's not that much.  Two cans of Coke is close to that (278); you could just drink that input daily.

So as I see it people creating, marketing, and selling "slimming tea" versions are more or less selling snake oil.  At best the products wouldn't do much, and at worst laxative and diuretic effect or stimulant input would be quite negative.  

Caffeine is already a diuretic too, beyond being a stimulant, so ordinary tea already covers that.  People's experience of side effects vary, so not everyone would agree with that, and it requires a significant daily dose to cause that effect (water loss), but a daily recommended limit of 400 mg of caffeine will cause water loss for most people.  Taking even more diuretic is not a good idea; temporarily losing water weight isn't helpful.

Some people might feel that they retain too much water, and feel bloated, so it would be good for them.  An easy way to offset this is to limit intake of compounds that cause increased water retention, particularly salt (sodium).  Or drinking more tea could help, and adding a bit more caffeine, which is a bit counter-intuitive, since that's ingesting more water as well.  Tea is said to contain between 25 and 40 mg of caffeine per a standard 8 ounce cup (250 ml, more or less), so brewed a bit strong it might take 10 cups to ingest that standard daily limit of 400 mg, the same as in four cups of coffee (on average).  80 ounces of tea is well over 2 quarts / liters; depending on the diuretic effect experienced someone might not need to add more water to compensate, but given how it can speed up water loss some people would.

I'm not claiming that maxing out caffeine intake is definitely a good idea, to speed up metabolism and get diuretic effect to really kick in.  I typically drink about 8 grams worth of tea a day, intentionally keeping that moderate, which I expect might amount to around 240 mg total (maybe less), down to 220 or less since extraction rate isn't 100%.  Long term effects are impossible to predict, so to me practicing moderation makes sense, related to essentially everything we consume.

Back to the specific starting point, the ethics issue.

A new slimming tea product

It's this product, last discussed by the developers in this tea group post:

Oddly that post is about discussing potential product names, and they've already set up the vending page with the product name and some marketing content, so that seems odd, and perhaps not completely genuine.

What is it they're discussing, or selling?  That's not clear yet.  They've implied it's based on pu'er tea, but there are no product details out yet.  Maybe that plus a diuretic and laxative, the most conventional earlier form.  Maybe something else.  It seems unlikely that they might incorporate a formerly unknown herbal input that really helps with weight loss, but I suppose it's not inconceivable.

  

About that, I wrote not so long ago about how brewing ground up papaya seeds extracts a compound that suppresses fat digestion.  That's not so far off the theme of an earlier supplement that did the same, which was embraced and then universally rejected for changing the consistency of the subject's stool in a negative way, making it loose and oily.  That's covered in the Mayo Clinic's summary of Orlistat functions, benefits, and side effects.  This problem stands out:

These side effects include:

Stomach pain or upset stomach

Oily discharge from the anus...

Yeah, no.  

For sure other compounds and herbs out there support weight loss, but there is no magic fix, or it would already be on the market.  Interfering with digestion is an interesting twist, seemingly more promising than stimulant effect, if an input version didn't have such problematic side effects.  Hunger suppression, the effect underpinning the latest Ozempic / Semaglutide craze, is also promising.

Since we can't evaluate or critique the weight loss effect or mechanism of their product, which may or may not exist in a final form yet, let's at least consider something seemingly similar, a pu'er based weight loss support product that adds herbs to support that function, Purasana Pu'er Tea Fat Burner.

Ingredients:  Pu-erh tea (Camellia sinensis), peppermint (Mentha piperata), hibiscus flower (Hibiscus sabdariffa), goldenrod (Solidago virgaurea), rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis)

They claim that goldenrod and rosemary are the "effective ingredients," in that sales page content, or sort of just imply that.  If rosemary made a lot of difference for weight loss people would already be making tea from that.  I have before, many times; it's pleasant.  I didn't lose weight drinking it.

According to this reference goldenrod, which can refer to differing plant types, is a set of flowering plants used as an herb tea / tisane in early US colonial times.  Wikipedia mentions this background and these uses:

Traditional medicine

Solidago virgaurea is used in a traditional kidney tonic by practitioners of herbal medicine to counter inflammation and irritation caused by bacterial infections or kidney stones.[43][44] Goldenrod is also used in some formulas for cleansing of the kidney or bladder during a healing fast, in conjunction with potassium broth and specific juices.[44] Some Native American cultures traditionally chew the leaves to relieve sore throats, and the roots to relieve toothaches.[28]

Medicinal exploration

In various assessments by the European Medicines Agency with respect to Solidago virgaurea, non-clinical data shows diuretic, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, analgesic and spasmolytic, antibacterial, antifungal, anticancer and immunomodulatory activity...

So it could be quite helpful in different uses, but is probably being utilized here as a diuretic.  Note that weight loss is not included in this substantial list of potential benefits.  Maybe another reference can add to that, like this Mount Sinai hospital database record:

Medicinal Uses and Indications

Goldenrod may act as a diuretic, meaning it flushes water from the body by increasing urine output. It may also reduce inflammation. However, it has not really been studied in humans.

Goldenrod is sometimes suggested for the following conditions:

Arthritis and gout

Allergies

Colds and flu

Inflammation of the bladder or urinary tract

Kidney stones

Eczema (applied to the skin)

Minor wounds (applied to the skin)

In that first Wikipedia citation they stated that "non-clinical data shows diuretic, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant..." (properties / benefits), aligning these two inputs.  It's probably good for you, but that second source warns against taking it with any other compounds that have a diuretic effect, since it has such a strong related effect itself.

Diuretics (water pills): Goldenrod may make diuretics stronger, raising the risk of dehydration.

...Other drugs: Due to its diuretic action, goldenrod may interact with any medication that is processed through the kidneys and urine.

So Purasana Puerh Tea Fat Burner seems unlikely to actually help with burning fat, since pu'er and those other common herbs don't support that (most likely, to a significant degree), but it will cause water weight loss.

But first let's back up a bit; maybe rosemary really can support weight loss, and I'm just unaware of that.  I had just set that aside as clearly absurd, but let's check, here:  Therapeutic effects of rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis L.) and its active constituents on nervous system disorders

Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis L.) is an evergreen bushy shrub which grows along the Mediterranean Sea, and sub-Himalayan areas. In folk medicine, it has been used as an antispasmodic, mild analgesic, to cure intercostal neuralgia, headaches, migraine, insomnia emotional upset, and depression. Different investigations have highlighted rosemary neuropharmacological properties as their main topics. 

Rosemary has significant antimicrobial, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidant, anti-apoptotic, anti-tumorigenic, antinociceptive, and neuroprotective properties. Furthermore, it shows important clinical effects on mood, learning, memory, pain, anxiety, and sleep. The aim of the current work is to review the potential neuropharmacological effects of different rosemary extracts and its active constituents on nervous system disorders, their relevant mechanisms and its preclinical application to recall the therapeutic potential of this herb and more directions of future research projects...

The focus of the following research review isn't on all potential health benefits, but this summary and the following outline of context doesn't list weight loss as any traditionally observed potential benefit:

Rosemary, Rosmarinus officinalis L. (Labiatae) has been used in folk medicine to alleviate several diseases including headache, dysmenorrhea, stomachache, epilepsy, rheumatic pain, spasms, nervous agitation, improvement of memory, hysteria, depression, as well as physical and mental fatigue (5, 6)... . 

Recently, noticeable scientific interest is focused on the beneficial therapeutic properties of different kinds of rosemary extracts and its main constituents, such as carnosic acid, carnosol, rosmarinic acid, etc. A large number of studies either on animal models or cultured cells indicate the wide range medicinal properties of rosemary and its compounds such as anti-inflammatory (8, 9), anti-oxidant (10), antinociceptive (11), neuroprotective (12), antidepressant, anti-hysteric, ameliorative of memory and mental fatigue (13-15) (Figure 1)...

Why was it added to a weight loss support product then?  Who knows, but it sounds positive enough, related to so many other effects.  Maybe it helps prevent the pu'er from wrecking your stomach.  That only makes sense if it's sheng pu'er, since shou is the least impactful type of tea, and one other point that comes up in a later source indicates shou might be a better match for this kind of product.

That's a dozen or so very positive effects, from these two herbs.  Would you really recognize all these benefits?  Probably not, based on minute dosage inputs of these and pu'er along with two other herbs.  If the diuretic effect of goldenrod is strong enough that plus caffeine may have an impact.

Back to ethics

Is it really unethical to sell these products based on health claims that seem dubious at best?  I think so, but it's a judgement call.

Drinking only pu'er, without any herbs, could support weight loss, if someone was replacing drinking soda, but that's not part of any "slimming tea" product claims.  Water works for that.

What if there was more to it?  What if they, the two younger American-Chinese business founders, were in on some sort of specialized knowledge?  That is part of the claim, outlined in this earlier link:

Hey Pu'er Tea Club members,

I’m Erik, and together with my sister Angela, we’re embarking on a fascinating journey inspired by our family's deep-rooted connection to tea.

Growing up, our family's move from China to the U.S. greatly influenced our perspective on tea. It became more than a beverage; it was a bridge between cultures and eras. Our dad has spent years researching the health aspects of tea, particularly focusing on a compound in Pu'er tea known as theabrownin. His findings even made their way into the Nature Journal, an awesome achievement!

This sparked in us a desire to explore how we could blend our love for traditional Pu'er tea with modern health concepts. While we're in the early stages of conceptualizing a venture around this idea, our primary goal is to learn and grow within this space...

So could they be identifying a health benefit from a known compound, theabrownin, present in high levels in some pu'er (mostly shou, it seems), and then creating a product around that?  Maybe, but probably not, since if that's all that is happening someone could just drink the pu'er, any similar range version.  

As a related aside, it's not uncommon for research in some countries to be sponsored by commercial interests, for paid support to lead directly to health claims findings that can be used for marketing.  Even if that hadn't been the starting point context anyone can drink pu'er, and for sure this will end up being another tea and herbs blend, with either laxative or diuretic properties, or both.  Or it would be nice if that's not the case.

Let's consider what theabrownin is all about anyway.  Google search brings up this study as the first result:   Theabrownin modulates the gut microbiome and serum metabolome in aging mice induced by D-galactose

Theabrownin (TB) is a complex oxidized polyphenol formed during the microbial fermentation of Pu-erh tea. It offers some health benefits such as weight loss, blood glucose reduction, and oxidation resistance; however, the anti-aging effect and the related mechanism have not yet been explored. In this study, symptoms of aging were induced in mice using D-galactose. Morris water maze test, hematoxylin-eosin staining, 16S rDNA high-throughput sequencing, and UHPLC-QE-MS metabolomics were used to reveal the anti-aging effects and potential mechanism of TB...

So they just throw it out there that of course it supports weight loss, but they're on to reviewing anti-aging potential in that work.  Maybe that's why I look so young (but I drink young sheng the most?).  The background is clear on what they're looking into, but the part about it relating to ripe or shou pu'er isn't promising to me though, as a sheng drinker:

Pu-erh tea is a traditional, historically famous tea from Yunnan, China, made from sun-dried green tea of large-leaf tea trees (Camellia sinensis var. assamica) by microbial solid-state fermentation (Liang et al., 2005, Zhao et al., 2010). It has a unique flavor, full-bodied aroma, outstanding aging aroma, and is a bright red soup with a mellow taste. TB is one of the essential active ingredients of Pu-erh tea. The content of TB in Pu-erh ripe tea can reach 16.86%, which is the primary color substance of Pu-erh ripe tea and plays a decisive role in its quality and function (Qin et al., 2009)...

[in later conclusions]...Drinking Pu-erh ripe tea can produce a variety of metabolic changes in the human body that are linked to the intestinal flora. Therefore, it is suggested that drinking pu-erh tea may change and adjust the structure of intestinal flora (Qasim, Aziz, Rasheed, Gul, & Khan, 2016)...

The linked claims here seem clear enough:  shou pu'er supports healthy digestion function, which carries over to a range of benefits, all the way to supporting longevity and mental health in later life.  How this ties to weight loss isn't clear in this paper; maybe that's a completely unrelated additional positive effect.  Maybe well-aged sheng could mirror this compound inclusion and final effect; that would all be the subject of another study.  

One more aside, they were using Dayi shou for the tests; nice.  Some aged CNNP / Zhong Cha would also be pleasant, but it's good that it worked using a newer version "(label No.7262, batch No.1801, produced on July 5, 2018)."  With that published in February 2022 it had probably had a few years to lose that early funky character, which I can't imagine changes the weight loss or anti-aging effects.

It's not inconceivable that some mix of shou pu'er and herbs could provide some new set of inputs and effects, even though I've been skeptical of that being remotely possible in this discussion.  It would really only be possible to question or dismiss any specific set of claims based on product information and review of related effects from ingredient inputs.

If those entrepreneurs turned up some supposedly traditional Chinese tea and herb blend recipe said to cause weight loss I would still be skeptical, but that couldn't be automatically dismissed.  The Indian Ayurvedic tradition seems to draw on those themes in a parallel way, on a mix of herb inputs or foods accomplishing what any one alone does not cause.  That does seem to be what Traditional Chinese Medicine was always about, combining a range of supporting inputs, not this one-to-one cause and effect sort of sequence that we focus on more in "the West," in terms of supplements, medicine, and other health inputs.

The only claim and background communicated so far relates to modern, relatively Western-style research study, and from the little I've reviewed, or that they have mentioned.  It only relates to drinking fermented / shou pu'er, somewhat explicitly, but even that is indirect.  Even if shou does happen to cause weight loss drinking Dayi already covers that, or any standard source brand.  If this new product is just shou pu'er with extra herbs to function as a diuretic and laxative it will follow the prior pattern, and won't be worth much consideration.

I hope that it's not that, that they create something novel, interesting, and useful.