Two day trip to Lopburi, the town with monkeys

 

Keoni and I just did a two day trip to Lopburi, the small town 3 or 4 hours north of Bangkok that's overrun by monkeys.  There are less monkeys now, which in general was a good thing.  To me the highlight was how easy and inexpensive it is to do short trips out of Bangkok, especially related to using the train system.  Eye and I--my wife--have went on a lot of short weekend trips, but we always drive.  It's interesting how the trade-off works out, even though it's just as one would expect.  Let's start there.

Train travel

It cost us 27 baht per person per trip for the train, under 1 USD.  That's something like $3 on a three hour round trip, in total, for two people.  That's crazy.  Obviously the Thai government subsidized local train travel really heavily.  An air conditioned train would have cost more, and issues with reserving seats come up for those.  It still wouldn't have been much.  

There's a decent chance that there was a foreigner rate and I should have been paying three times that much ($3 or 4 for the trip, maybe 5 or 6), but that changes nothing.  Keoni bought the tickets, and if so they let it go, that his companion didn't look as Thai.  Maybe I am considered local, for that purpose, because I have a Thai driver's license, so I am a resident.

Even if it was $10, more than ten times as much, I wouldn't mind paying more, but dual pricing does offend some local foreigners.  I probably pay as much tax as everyone in the train car we were in combined, aside from sales tax; that's why others see it as a problem.  We are kind of poor, but that relates to maintaining two households in two different countries.

We were discussing the general downsides of this form of travel just after getting back, and there aren't many.  If the train is really full you might need to sit with two people on a seat designed to hold two people, across from someone you don't know, sharing foot space.  The way up was like that, most of the way, until more people got off and we moved.  It doesn't change a lot, but it was nice sitting on a cushioned bench style seat designed for two people instead.

The bathroom was local style; a stainless steel squat toilet.  For many Westerners that could be a deal breaker, a fixture that's almost impossible to use.  It wouldn't have been a big deal for us, and on a three hour trip we only went in there to take a picture of it.

People went by every 10 minutes or so offering food or drinks, at 7/11 or local market pricing levels.  You could keep drinking water, soda, or canned coffee, and eat fruit or simple Thai meals, like grilled meats or pad krapao (essentially the Thai national dish, ground pork fried with basil, with rice, usually served with a fried egg).  One might wonder if that food is safe.  My guess is that you could eat it every day for a year and be fine, but it's only a guess.  Those drinks were under $1 (half that), and meals at just under $1 (nearly that), so you would be spending like a local.

It's not all that hot now, but the first day was worse.  We are acclimated to the local weather, so it's fine for us.  Other visitors wouldn't be, and they might suffer, on a hot day.  You can plan to go quite early, missing that part.  The trains run several times a day.

Lopburi; sites and monkeys

They've rounded up most of the monkeys, keeping them in a caged area somewhere, we heard.  Someone else commented online that they were moved out to the forest, and that may be a pleasant cover story, that sounds better than hearing that they're now essentially zoo prisoners.  We saw maybe 20, in two days; that was enough to get a feel for it.  In the past we saw hundreds, on a one-day visit; they were absolutely everywhere.  You needed to carry a stick around to keep them from trying to steal things from you.  Of course they want food, but they had probably learned that if they steal your sunglasses or cell phone you immediately pursue ways to trade them things to get those back.

A main attraction there is a really nice historical museum, that Eye and I visited last fall.  Keoni and I went there.  It's interesting hearing about Thai history, about what happened in the 6th to 8th centuries there, the peak of that local culture, and at other time periods.  

Having learned more about Thai history over the years it became more apparent that this was a fairly sanitized and limited range instruction about even the local history.  It kept referencing Khmer (Cambodian empire) architecture and personal goods style themes, but never once said that the area was ruled by a foreign power, which I think is just how that went.  Of course it doesn't matter.  I was interested in hearing more about the time period prior to the 6th century, since we visited Si Thep last year as well, and there was an interesting city-state time period in there, but they didn't say much about that.  They did reach back to stone and bronze age roots, and describe the history of that, which I found especially fascinating.

I'm not really claiming that they were sanitizing and revising Thai history.  It was more that exclusive focus on some main themes limited others even coming up.  That's splitting hairs, isn't it?  There was a time period when Lopburi was very developed and advanced, prominent in the broad region, and there was a lot to cover about that, during that 6th to 8th century range.  It's fine that they didn't cover as much about the 8th century to the present, or the first century up to 5th.  

I think it's a Western perspective approach to wonder about what came before, as if that's a critical part of the same story.  But then when you learn about the Roman empire you "only" have 4 or 5 centuries to work with, and with dominant Greek culture maybe even less, and there was always something before.  In general as you move back the details become less granular, and you end up hearing about artifacts implying a lot of things, without a written history tracing what it all meant.

That museum is still fantastic, very much worth a visit.  Probably if you visited another half dozen historical sites you would build up more of an image of that main time-frame, and perhaps some about what came before and after.

We didn't do that.  We arrived Saturday afternoon, saw that museum, sorted out a hotel stay, rested a little, and looked around and had dinner.

not all that historical, but it is related to tea

Travel by train versus car

In lots of places there are local tuk-tuks or songtaews (trucks with benches in the back) to get around locally, but we didn't see much of that there.  So we walked.  Using a car you tend to focus in on just a few main places, between driving and parking, and you see things block by block more on foot.  Eye and I walk enough that we get to both when we drive, since she loves local markets and seeing different areas.

Still, I suppose it's a trade-off not having a car.  We were limited to local hotels, but luckily there were a lot.  Again we payed next to nothing for the hotel stay; around 500 baht, or $15.  Often it's better to bump that to 600-700 to get a breakfast included, but we found a decent option that was fine, and very central, and went with it.

There's a newer part of town, and the older part, that we were in.  I think they relocated a lot of government buildings and some new infrastructure to get away from the monkeys.  Then later the monkeys got to be a bit much, and they relocated most of them instead.  They are kind of nasty little creatures, beyond being really cute.  Keo and I experienced one threatening us at the Khao Keo Open Zoo, outside of Pattaya, this past summer.  All we did was look at him, which he took as a threat.  He growled and waved a bit, I guess it was.  So we picked up sticks to walk past him, since he was on the handrail of a narrow walkway, and seeing the sticks he reeled in the aggression, as if he never meant it in the first place.

Once at that same zoo a monkey stole a bag of chips from our niece.  Soon after a monkey with a baby made a threatening face and sound to us, seemingly telling us that if anything happened she would fight to protect her child.  Before there was any time to react my wife copied that expression and gesture, telling that monkey in no uncertain terms that she would also fight to protect her children, and the monkey would lose.  They both settled into a sort of mutual respect after that, and the monkey walked off.

They're a bit scary, even though they're small, because if you got bit in the least by them, or even scratched, you'd probably need to have a round of four rabies shots immediately (the first one; the rest follow on a schedule).  

I've been through that, related to getting bitten by a local shop cat.  I love that cat too; she is a close friend.  But she was agitated that day, probably from fighting with other street cats, and she crawled under my leg as I squatted to pet her, and then felt trapped, by the placement she had chosen, and reacted.  Cats really do have fast reaction time; a cat would lose a fight with a human, but you would look like you lost within not so many seconds.  

The exchange cost her dearly; she couldn't be trusted to stay on a leash outside that shop, and has been caged daily since, free to roam that shop and household in their off hours.  I still pet her.  If I need rabies shots again I'll get them, but as I see it she needs my friendship and support more than ever, and people and cats sometimes make mistakes.

Other parts

There wasn't much more to it.  They had two small night markets where we could seek out dinner, but we got take-out from a strip of food shops instead.  I bought egg tarts that I had for breakfast.  Keoni had grilled chicken for dinner, and I had vegetarian food (it's a 10 day long vegetarian festival, or was, ending this past weekend).

We stopped at a coffee shop twice (Cafe Amazon; there were other local options, but not many).  We walked over to see the next roundabout / main intersection area, but there wasn't much there to see.  We visited a favorite Chinese drink and ice cream outlet, Mixue, which was decorated for Halloween, which is a bit atypical.  It was nice seeing some of the town, but there were only government, military, and university buildings in that area.  We never did figure out how to take a songtaew (a truck converted to serve as a tiny bus alternative).

Spending more time in Lopburi might not be interesting.  We didn't see the new government / city center area, and didn't visit much for ruins, so two days might still be ok.  We've been to a lot of ruins, and they kind of repeat at some point.  Ayutayah and Sukhothai are more extensive and developed.  It's interesting that there's not much at all of that in Bangkok; it really wasn't an ancient or old developed area.  The city's history goes back many hundreds of years, but not to the 6th to 8th centuries, or at least so it seems.

Lopburi had a municipal water supply system in the 1600s; not bad

It goes without saying that I'm referencing the Western / Roman calendar, but I'll add that here.  The year is different in Thailand, based on the Buddha's life as a starting point.  It's Monday, October 19, 2569 BE:

Buddhist Era (B.E.): Thailand counts years from the death of Gautama Buddha, placing the calendar 543 years ahead of the Gregorian calendar (2026 + 543 = 2569).

Thai Abbreviation: Written in Thai as พ.ศ. (Phut Sakarat).

Unless I'm wrong about that, and these historical dates really run 500 years earlier?  Probably that's it, and the era we kept hearing about related to 600 CE / AD onward.

Conclusions

I would highly recommend people in Bangkok or visitors include some local travel in their plans.  Why not?  Sukhothai is also fantastic to visit, and you can do Ayuttayah on a day-trip, just outside of Bangkok.  To go further, up to Chiang Mai, for example, it's better to take a second class air conditioned train, so the seats can convert to bunks.  That didn't cost much over 1000 baht back when we last did it, and is probably closer to 2000 now ($60), but it's worth it.

It's interesting considering how it might be uncomfortable for some to do what we just did.  Plenty of people speak some English, but more don't, and foods being unfamiliar could be an issue.  Keo had grilled chicken and french fries, with a small salad, so other Western food is around.  People might worry about getting sick, or could be concerned if crime is an issue, or if the monkeys are dangerous.  They kind of are, but risk is limited, especially since there aren't many now.

Si Thep is also a great local area to visit, with historical sites there relating to the time period just before this main Lopburi regional influence.  It's another hour and a half drive further north, so you would probably need a car for that.  Renting cars in Thailand isn't that difficult or expensive, but driving might be, for people from the US, accustomed to using the other side of the road.  Sukhothai is nice too anyway, a bit further north, but better set up for transportation and foreign visitors.

Fortnum and Mason Rose Pouchong

 

I'm reviewing a rose pouchong tea from Fortnum and Mason.  There are a couple of interesting layers to this experience, beyond the tea, since pouchong is an interesting type reference, and this was given to me by a Thai monk.  

I can explain how that second part works.  I've mentioned giving monks tea a lot here, and it usually goes that way, that you would give a monk tea, not the other way around.  But it makes sense.

How can a monk give away tea?

I've mentioned giving monks tea fairly frequently, a few times in the past 2 or 3 months.  If people end up giving them a lot of any one thing, like that, it could seem inappropriate for them to stockpile tea, even though for a tea enthusiast that's a best case scenario.  Giving some away to visitors is appropriate, and keeping a moderate supply.  

People also end up giving monks things they're not supposed to have, like a fruit basket.  There's no rule against keeping tea around, but monks can't store food, because they are required to go out on alms rounds daily and live off that food input, and not keep "leftovers."  It's not the worst thing to give them fruit, not a violation of a norm, because they can eat some that day, and pass it on to another visitor, or temple staff.  

There aren't a lot of staff at a temple, like in a billionaire's house complex, but depending on the temple context they may need extra security, office workers, cleaners, etc.  We just had a memorial service event at Wat Pho, a main Thai Bangkok temple, that functions as both a tourism destination and a functional temple, for memorials, funerals (not many; dedicated temples tend to specialize in that), and marriages.  I was married there, and I ordained there, 19 years or so ago.  

That temple is typically the #1 Bangkok tourism destination on Trip Advisor; it's not just a tourism attraction, it's a main one, in a city that draws almost as many visitors as anywhere else in the world.  More might go to Paris, but that's about it.

I recently gave that monk two kinds of tea, after passing on some other tea a month or two prior, and it was probably adding up, what different people had offered.  Hopefully he didn't give it to me to balance the scales, in some way, as friends would return a favor, because I'm not at all concerned about that, and I have a lot of tea around.  Monks can't buy things, so I give tea to a few that I know, because they can't eat anything after noon, and it would be nice to have a beverage option then.  It's just that.

What is pouchong?

Pouchong is baozhong, a type of lightly oxidized oolong from Taiwan.  I had forgotten that, that it's the old name for that type.  This seems nothing like Bao Zhong, instead like a mild black tea.  That's fine though; when oolong types are relatively more oxidized the line blurs, since black teas can also be relatively less oxidized (within a narrow range).  Oddly they're calling it black tea, on the label, at the same time they reference a name for a type of oolong, which might be explained in the following additional background.

This one tastes like a mild and flavorful black tea, in terms of flavor profile.  That's positive.  I'm writing this after taking notes; it's interesting to consider if a bias towards thinking that it's black tea changed anything.  The dried leaves are dark, and the wetted leaves are brown; it's as oxidized as black tea, regardless of what they want to call it, or which processing steps led to that.  So it's really more of a naming and type anomaly; this is functionally black tea.

They could have been referencing an older use of the named type.  This is an excerpt from Tea, It's History and Mystery, by Joseph Walsh, from 1892:

That was in the "souchong" black tea book section; it had been black tea back then, or at least so it seems from this reference.  This is probably what they are referencing, a traditional type name, not the older name variation for a type of Taiwanese oolong.

Review:

First infusion:  it might work better to use a very small amount, 2 or 3 grams, and then brew it for 5 minutes, more or less as the tin label recommended.  I used 4 or 5 grams, and it will brew 2 or 3 times using this kind of hybrid Western approach.  It's "designed" for infusion all at one time, so that might not be ideal; we'll see how it goes.

The flavor is a little light, but it's fine, the range works.  Of course it tastes like flowers and black tea.  Like rose, I guess?  It literally is rose.  The quality of the black tea is pretty good, better than I would have expected.  It's not as if everything that finds its way into a tin is bad, that's just a generality that probably applies more often than it doesn't.  The more flavored a tea is the less the tea input quality would matter, so it might tend to be worse.  Earl Grey versions usually use some pretty so-so black tea as a base.

It's hard to identify much beyond general black tea range and rose.  It's a warm toned black tea, as those tend to be, but it lacks the malty edge of Assam.  It might taste a little like unsmoked Lapsang Souchong.  I still don't know what this is; it might even be that.  Or maybe Keemun / Qimen.  Let's check with Google how that should be:

Qimen black tea, commonly known as Keemun, is a famous Chinese black tea originating from Qimen County in Anhui Province. First produced in 1875, it is prized for its gentle, low-astringent taste with distinct notes of unsweetened cocoa, dried fruit, and a subtle, aromatic smokiness.

Maybe this does include cacao and dried fruit; it's hard to tell, with this much floral input.  That's a good guess.  The range of whatever it does include is positive, and it integrates well with the rest.  Tea quality is good; feel is decent, and aftertaste contributes depth, even though it's mostly floral (the rose).  

It's good tea, in a limited sense.  For a mass produced tin tea it's quite good, for specialty tea range presented as an exceptional version just kind of ordinary, or maybe not on a high level.  Complexity and intensity could be limited, which doesn't matter in this form, because the flower input is covering that.

Second infusion:  I let this go a bit over 5 minutes, to really extract the rest.  There is no astringency edge to work around, or any other unpleasant range, so it should be fine strong.  Or medium; the last should've probably been stronger for brewing about 5 grams for around 4 minutes.  

I didn't mention that this would work well with milk and sugar, but you would need to dial up intensity for that to make sense, and I'm already brewing what should be a really strong version.  It would be strange trying to brew 6 to 8 grams in a 300 ml infuser; at some level it might not fit in a basket.

Floral range really kicks this time.  It even picks up a bit of dry edge to the feel; it's pushed as far as it could be, without things going badly.  This is strong enough to stand up to milk and sugar, but it definitely doesn't need it.  Sweetness level is nice.  

It's cool how there is nothing actually sweet in this in terms of carbohydrate input, but it's sweet.  It lacks that artificial sweet range in stevia and diet drinks; this could really work for some people trying to control caloric intake.  A teaspoon or two of sugar isn't a lot of calories anyway (16 calories in 4 grams, a teaspoon), which makes it all the more odd that sodas contain so much (140 calories in a can of Coke; 8 teaspoons worth).

This is much better than I expected.  I've had pretty good floral blends before, and jasmine black tea is my personal favorite, so I guess it makes sense that I like this.

I'm still not unpacking a new flavor list.  It's not that far off jasmine black tea, but of course this is rose.  Maybe it includes cacao, or maybe that's not a great interpretation.  If there is dried fruit it's not so far off Chinese date, or that plus dried apricot.  The dry, warm, rich input that picked up could seem like malt, if you are looking for that, or autumn leaf might work better.

It might have worked better to brew 2/3rds as much for 6 or 7 minutes, maybe 3 grams or so, and that's it.  But as a specialty tea enthusiast I am biased towards experiencing some transition across rounds, even when it doesn't change anything, or isn't completely positive.

plenty of company for this tasting

Conclusions:

This is a great tea to have on hand for something easy to brew and drink when you are in a hurry, or don't feel like going through much effort.

So how much would this cost?  19 British pounds for 100 grams, or $26.  Is that a good value?  Not compared to what I've been buying at Chinatown locally; I just bought 100 grams of wild origin Chinese black tea for $15, a version that's slightly better.  But for this mass-produced range, selling on a Western market or webpage, it's probably normal, and ok.  

The one Vietnamese jasmine black tea I've tried versions of, from Hatvala, here, sells for $18.25 for 100 grams, and it's probably slightly better (relatively objectively, although preference always factors in).  But then they offer free worldwide shipping on $80 or over, so you'd be looking to build up an order to that amount, from anywhere but within Vietnam, where local post service is probably cheap.  

Fortnum and Mason, through their webpage sales outlet, don't ship to Thailand, so that's not even an option to buy direct from them.  I've never seen this in Bangkok, so it would probably come down to using an Amazon or Ebay outlet, which again might add significant shipping.  

I'd recommend buying the Hatvala tea over this anyway.  More oxidized / red oolong through them has been exceptional in the past, and trying a few other teas would be a great experience.  $80 sounds like a lot, but that could be months worth of tea.  That doesn't change that this was pretty good; I'm saying that you could probably get slightly better tea for less, using a different kind of source.

Si Thep, an early Siam city-state, before Sukhothai

 

We just visited Phetchabun, to a place in the mountains, then back to Si Thep, the Siam kingdom (?) before Sukhothai.  It's tempting to describe that as the first kingdom of Siam, but this kind of large gap in my own awareness of "local" history has me wondering what else I'm not in on.  It turns out that I've read quite a bit on that, from visiting museums and monuments in different places, some of which is referenced here.  Of course this isn't going to be a research paper quality reference of that history, but I'll pass on what I learned, it just includes some gaps and errors, sure even after adding more parts.  Per Wikipedia it was really a city-state; we can start with that, provisionally.

Many people are familiar with the Ayutthaya and Sukhothai kingdoms and eras, to a limited extent.  You can go visit old temple ruins in both places (those are two distinct locations, the capitals of those kingdoms).  We've been to both enough times that I couldn't say how many.  Maybe only 3 to Sukhothai, or maybe more, but definitely more to Ayutthaya.  We were just there, and the time before that wasn't so long ago.

only part of one of many ancient Ayutthaya temples

visiting Sukhothai in 2021

that was for Loy Krathong, in November, a great time to visit there

Then there was also a state / kingdom in the north of Thailand, La Na, that is well-known.  I referenced that in the last description of visiting Ayutthaya, I just didn't mention it:

Maps like that give you an impression that the boundaries of these empires or states were clearly defined over a long period of time, and they may have kept shifting a bit instead.  It still works as general background; for an extended time that's probably roughly where those boundaries were, give or take some minor transitions.

The Si Thep state (or whatever it was) was described as starting 1300 years ago by our guide on that outing.  It might have been harder for them to pin down a specific date when it ceased to be, since it would've declined over time, perhaps for different reasons.  According to him it was well established when the ancient Cambodian (Khmer) state associated with Angkor Wat wasn't developed yet.  It's hard for me to know how to place all that he said though; it seems possible a lot was left out, and some parts could've been wrong.  Not wrong in the sense that he was badly informed, but related to the whole broad picture changing over time as new details emerge (which gets covered in more detail here).

Scanning the Wikipedia article on Si Thep must fill in some mostly correct background:

Hindu-influenced era: 6th–8th century CE

The second phase of occupation (c. 6th–8th century CE) was characterized by the expansion to the outer city. As the monarchy emerged, Vaishnavism took an important role in Si Thep's society, with relationships to India, Funan, Chenla, and Dvaravati cultures.[12] Si Thep was an urban Dvaravati culture center since the 6th century CE, and one of the earliest communities in Thailand that made contacts with India, attested in stone inscription K 978, written in Sanskrit with Pallava script dated to the 6th century CE. So, Si Thep was developed into an early state along with other early Southeast Asian states like Funan, Chenla, and Sri Ksetra.[13] Charles Higham reports of a 7th-century Dvaravati inscription from Si Thep that states, [a new king took the throne]. " A moat enclosed 4.7 square km, while the Khao Klang Nai structure (Thai: เขาคลังใน) dates from the 6th to 7th century.[14]: 303, 308–309 

Buddhism-influenced era: 8th–10th century CE

This phase (c. 8th–10th century CE) was the most prosperous. An irrigation system was developed, and Mahayana Buddhism influenced art as relationships with India, Dvaravati and northeastern cities continued. Si Thep, Sema [fr], and Lopburi sites controlled the routes in the region.[12] The growth of Si Thep led to the establishment of its neighboring city, Tha Rong (Thai: ท่าโรง), located 20 kilometers northward on the bank of the Pasak River, which was later renamed Wichian Buri during the reign of King Nangklao of Rattanakosin.[15] Via Buddhism, several historical evidences supports the connection between Si Thep and another group of Dvaravati-influenced political entities in present Northeast Thailand, Wen Dan.[16]: 91–92 

During this era, Si Thep, together with Lavo, was the center of the mandala-style state, Dvaravati; however, due to the weather-induced migration or the pandemic, Si Thep lost its prosperity, and Lavo became the only center of power in the area until it fell under Khmer hegemony during the 10th to 11th centuries.[17]

Rise of Angkorian: 11th–13th century CE

During this phase (c. 11th–13th century CE), Shaivism was a great influence in Si Thep at Angkorian times, and Si Thep had relationships with Phimai in Mun River basin as Sema [th] ceased to control the routes. Due to Jayavarman VII's policy, Si Thep lost importance and was almost abandoned around the 14th century.[12] Prang Song Phi Nong and Prang Si Thep were built in the 11th to 12th centuries.[14]: 303, 308–309 

After the decline of Si Thep in the 14th century, a new kingdom, Ayutthaya, was subsequently founded southward on the bank of the Chao Phraya River in mid-14th CE, as the succeeded state,[2] as its capital's full name referred to the mandalas of Dvaravati; Krung Thep Dvaravati Si Ayutthaya (Thai: กรุงเทพทวารวดีศรีอยุธยา).[18][19][20][21] The connection between the ancient Mon people, the predominant population of the Dvaravati, and the present-day Thai people in central Thailand, who are the inheritors of Siamese's Ayutthaya, was established in several genetic studies performed in the 20th century.

So they're describing it as a city-state, not really on par with a full-scale kingdom.  It was actually founded in the 4th century (300s CE), but seemed to rise to prominence in the 8th century, as described.  To place that in relation to the Sukhothai time-frame, Google offers this:  "The Sukhothai era (1238–1438) was the first Thai kingdom..."

Some parts of this are especially fascinating, to me.  Apparently there is very little for written references in relation to this city-state, in part because (as I understand it) earlier versions of modern Thailand hadn't developed written language prior to the Ayutthaya era.  My understanding isn't much of a guide, and what I learned from our actual guide didn't seem as convincing as it might have been, even though he worked for the local Fine Arts Department that manages those sites.

Let me elaborate.  It's only recently that they've excavated the sites we saw, and learned that many of them exist.  Of course parts were there to be seen continuously since those centuries back, but not as much as you might expect.  Even the giant main site structure had been buried by soil, or so we were told (by another local; they might've had that wrong).  A fallen down structure being buried and lost is understandable, but not a monument of that size, tens of meters tall.

Other parts were fascinating, and less speculative.  They definitely incorporated aspects of Buddhism and Hinduism in their monuments, and even Khmer artwork, presumably from later on.  As the time periods changed apparently they kept updating design aspects and inclusions.  Indian influence was primary, but not the only external source.  They made parts of the monument, the one in the historical area section, from concrete, a technology our guide said that they would have imported from India.  Of course the Romans did a lot with concrete long before this time-frame, but it's especially fascinating to me that during Europe's "dark ages" they lost the technology to make it (even though it would seemingly be from a very simple recipe).

Across all of this experience it seemed especially odd to me that I'd never heard of Si Thep.  Or actually I probably had; when we visited Lopburi a lot of the historical references in a museum there would've covered that time-frame [or possibly not, per looking up museum display references, cited in a different section here], and that background, and according to our guide some very important artifacts from Si Thep are kept there.  That we saw, no doubt, whether or not the whole background was clear.  

I'm just not great with keeping track.  Of course it was amazing to me three years ago, during that visit, that Thai history was that much more complicated than I had been aware, but not much of a detailed timeline stuck with me.  The more ancient parts were especially fascinating, from 3000 years ago or more, but I'm skipping covering that here.

we hiked up this earlier in the day, which is more difficult than it looks

good views up there

this very zoomed-in temple was playing music we could hear up there, maybe 8 km away

our guide was great, and that historical site dog joined in as a greeter

very old Buddha cave-art in a cave at the top

Lopburi museum reference:

I looked up a museum exhibit reference we visited in Lopburi in December 2022 to see what it said about this history, and if possible about Si Thep:

Si Thep is an hour and a half drive from Lopburi, north of there, so although it's possible that the map scope extends further up, and I cut it off, it seems more likely that Si Thep just didn't make this reference list and map graphic.  It was definitely from that time period, and also heavily influenced by Indian culture, as they describe, but it just wasn't mentioned here.  Strange.

But then if this museum content was from prior to 5 to 10 years ago and much of the scope of ruins at Si Thep were unknown then the omission makes sense.  It just wouldn't have seemed like there was that much up there, never mind a large city-state center complex, and massive monument, second only to Borobudur (in Java, Indonesia) in size from that early time period, according to our guide.  Let's take a look at that, even though similarities or differences might not stand out at a glance:

it's big (from Dec. 2015)

seemingly related to Buddhism

Of course this isn't a claim about tight linkage in background themes between Si Thep and Borobudur, in Indonesia.  Our guide said that it's the only other larger related time period monument in SE Asia.  One might naturally wonder how the later temples at Siem Reap fit into this.  I won't get too far into that, since it's another long history that I'm not all that familiar with, even though I've been there twice.  But citing more related background, about visiting another place, does partly link it together.  

On a separate trip we visited a related Khmer temple at the edge of Thailand, in Sa Kawo province, again in December 2022, which related to this:

Thai fine arts department page on the temple:

Prasat Sdok Kok Thom is located at Nong Ya Kaeo village, Moo 6, Tambon Khok Sung, Amphoe Khok Sung, Sa Kaeo Province and away from the border of Thailand – Cambodia about 1 kilometer.

It was originally called “Prasat Muang Phrao”, and then Prasat Sadok Kok Thom and Prasat Sdok Kok Thom. The word “Sdok Kok Thom” is Khmer language, “Sdok”came from “Sadok” which meant to overgrown, “Kok” meant to reeds, and “Thom” meant to large. Therefore, “Sdok Kok Thom” meant to overgrown with large reeds.

The religious place was built in 1595 B.E., in the reign of King Uthai Thitayavarman II (1593 – 1609 B.E.) to bestow the Brahmin who left the buddhist monkhood named “Sri Chayantaravarman” or his former name “Sadashiva”. This Brahmin was a son-in- law of King Suryavarman I and also an officiant who performed the Royal Coronation Ceremony to King Uthai Thitayavarman II.2

Prasat Sdok Kok Thom was constructed by the style of Khmer architecture.

Those dates are a little confusing because they're based on the Thai dating that sets the time of the Buddha to zero, not Jesus's birth (it's 2568 now; they're 543 years apart).  A related Wikipedia page converts parts over:

Udayadityavarman II (Khmer: ឧទ័យាទិត្យវរ្ម័នទី២) ruled the Angkor Kingdom from 1050 to 1066 A.D. He was the successor of Suryavarman I[1]: 137  but not his son; he descended from Yasovarman I's spouse.

He built the Baphuon Temple to honor the god Shiva, but some of the sculptures are dedicated to Buddha. He also completed the construction of the West Baray reservoir and built the West Mebon, a raised-earth island in the center.[1]: 138 [2]: 103 [3]: 371 

The Sdok Kak Thom temple, located near the present day Thai town of Aranyaprathet, was also constructed during his reign. The temple was home to a gray sandstone stele, 1.51 meters high, with a detailed inscription that recounted the sequence of previous Khmer kings. 

This was from that temple:

And it looks like this:

It loses a little for people who don't read Thai, but this helps place it and other early somewhat local monuments:

Note that the time-frame for that temple fell between 1050 and 1066 (the beginning of the "Angkorian phase," in that other reference), with the main Buddhist related and most prosperous Si Thep time period falling between the 8th and 10th centuries (700s to 900s CE).  Our guide's reference to the main temple being 1300 years old corresponds to this, but that really was the second phase of Si Thep's development, with an earlier Hindu era from the 6th to 8th centuries.

That's probably basically what our guide had been describing.  The mix of different dates tied to different parts of the two sites we visited was probably a little confusing to me, but spelled out more clearly in those text citations it all comes together.

Additional thoughts on the Light and Sound show:

Is anyone still with me, through all of these tangents?  During that light and sound show one thing that came to mind was considering how authentic any presentation about that history could be.  I asked our guide, and he said that they tried to make the clothing (costumes) period specific, based on what little they could find of formal clothing back then.  It wouldn't have been much.  They were dressed like these guys:

Who were "holding up" part of the temple monument here:

I didn't get a good broad-angle shot of that monument section, so here's one from a virtual tour page hosted by the Thai Fine Arts Department that manages the site:

I guess that it doesn't look like much, but for something 1300 years old that was generally lost to time for an extended period it's still impressive, just probably not in good condition compared to the original form.  Of course they have more on the history from other sources; it wouldn't only be based on those ruins, as already covered here.  This reference covers the general area, with background on both sites that we visited, Khao Klang Nai (the Si Thep Historical Park) and Khao Klang Nok, the other monument where the light and sound festival was held.

On the subject of how "lost to history" monuments of this scale could be this was from the Sadok Kok temple we visited in Sa Kaeo province, the one that was part of the Khmer empire:

In 1901 a French explorer told the outside world that it was there.  Thais already knew that, but the historical context and meaning they probably weren't as clear on, although they probably also knew that it was a part of the Cambodian (Khmer) empire.  One particular stone with a lot of writing described important parts of the Khmer history in detail; that's what the citation means "inscriptions discovered there are more important than any inscriptions in Cambodia."  This Wikipedia source on Sdok Kok Thom describes that in detail:

The inscription (classified K. 235) is a 340-line composition, in both Sanskrit and ancient Khmer, carved on a gray sandstone stele 1.51 meters high that stood in the northeast corner of the temple's court. Dating to 8 February 1053, it recounts two and a half centuries of service that members of the temple's founding family provided to the Khmer court, mainly as chief chaplains to kings. In laying out this long role, the text provides a remarkable and often poetically worded look at the faith, royal lineage, history and social structure of the times.

Back to the event theme, it seems like the prints of that period costume fabric would only be an interpretation drawn from later time periods.  The jewelry worn in the dancing they probably didn't have; according to our guide from early relics found they were using copper and tin (so brass, or other alloys), instead of gold in Thailand in that early period.  Of course there couldn't really be a reference to music from then, or dancing style; there isn't much written about the local history and culture, at all.  

So a lot of what we saw in that show was from general, modern Thai culture, informed by the Ayutthaya and Sukhothai era background.  They had the ancient king (in the story) pay respect to Shiva (I think it was him; a Hindu god, at least), so they at least mixed in a little related story line.  I suppose if that particular monument structure was created during the later Buddhist period it might not have all synced.

the related festival sales booths parts were nice

One last tangent:  for being from a rural area myself (in PA) I love small towns in Thailand, and Si Thep had a great feel to it.  We walked around a market area in town and found all sorts of great food for next to nothing, buying fruit and snacks to go with it.  Walking around that festival people seemed incredibly relaxed and friendly, familiar from my own earlier days.  I suppose they're still like that back there now; I visited last a year ago (rural PA), and people there are nice.  As they are in Si Thep.

I would highly recommend Bangkok locals or expats go and check it out.  It's like visiting Sukhothai before developed tourism shifted everything there to a tourism themed hotel, hostel, restaurant, or gift shop.  Actually Sukhothai and Ayutthaya are both great too (you'd be crazy to not eat boat noodles visiting the latter), perfect places to rent a bike and check out at a slow pace, or just to walk around.  But Si Thep adds a local small-town feel, at the cost of them still developing the museum display side of things.

if you do hike up that mountain wear pants (there are mosquitos), carry plenty of water, and take your time