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trying khao soy, a favorite Northern Thai curry noodle dish |
Typically meeting someone and having tea with them isn't a novel enough theme to write about, but this was especially interesting. I've talked online with William for years; he was active in tea forum and group discussions since prior to when I started blogging, over 11 years ago. Here's an interview post with him from 2017. I had bought Farmerleaf tea more at one point, and regularly reviewed versions, but have moved on to other sources.
Let's start there, and get the awkward part out of the way. What I've said online about Farmerleaf could be taken as meaning that they had been a good value source for pu'er, and for good black tea, Dian Hong, my favorite black tea style, but now aren't, having increased pricing over the years. Part of that is what I've said; all pu'er vendors have increased pricing quite a bit over the last decade, and Farmerleaf is no different. Their cakes were selling for $40 or 50 8 or 9 years ago, and now it's $90 to 120, for a basic quality range. So how is it still a good value?
They've improved quality of what they sell over that time (per my impression, but then maybe I'm not the right person to know). It's a natural shift, for vendors to cater to whatever demand the market provides, and that pattern holds for other vendors too. Yunnan Sourcing Impression cakes, their in-house benchmark tea line, shifted from $40 versions to around the $100 range over that timeframe, presented as better quality tea. They're surely better now, not as much "generic" blends, onto better quality, more carefully created and exceptional versions. Prices for everything have increased, not just tea, but especially for above average sheng pu'er.
My focus on budget as a primary constraint relates to my own tea budget being tight, all the time. I work in Thailand, in a Thai company, and my salary matches the cost of living here. I now live part-time in Honolulu, where my kids go to school, and that has stretched that SE Asian income to the breaking point. So I've been buying teas from Vietnam and Thailand more lately, at exceptional value for buying directly from small producers, or from Viet Sun, which is transitioning through the same theme, sourcing better teas over time, and then increasing pricing range.
Farmerleaf teas are surely a decent value, if spending around $100 on cakes seems fine (357 gram standard sized versions). William passed on some samples; I'll have lots more to say about that theme in more detail, and the rest of this makes a short start into it.
Back to more about William then. It was also great to meet his wife and son; they're both wonderful. But this is mostly about our discussion about tea, so more of what he said. Of course his wife is also a tea producer and expert, and she offered some input too, but this will be more about him, not really attributing any input to her, even though she did offer some.
His tea preferences
This part was especially interesting to me; what would he look for and value in teas? Would it relate to a certain style or flavor preference, or for some other aspect? In a word: intensity. Intensity can mean strong flavors, but it can also relate to fullness of feel, both of which tend to carry over to aftertaste expression, to sweetness and bitterness being present at significant levels, and to depth, covering some range. According to William you can make processing adjustments to vary tea character but you can't get mediocre material to express intensity. You can brew teas strong to push them, or drink it extra young, and so on, but the material only has so much to offer. All that seems to work.
What are the limitations of this primary focus? This part is more speculation. There's no reason why you couldn't look for one primary characteristic and also appreciate others, and for sure William is doing that. Beyond intensity the flavor range expressed varies, depth is really kind of a different thing, and balance is something else, how it all comes together. My impression is that none of this is lost on William, even though he really loves sheng intensity, and sees it as a main quality marker.
Who doesn't? We've talked before about how this may be a big part of why other tea types lose appeal once someone switches over to sheng pu'er preference. I've said this over and over again, mostly while reviewing oolongs. Those can be fantastic but you feel that lack of intensity, even though you can stay open to those other styles of tea, and tea experiences. Somehow the depth and comfort of black tea remains very desirable, to me, and I can still appreciate all the other tea range, even green tea, my least favorite, but I keep coming back to craving sheng, and mostly drink young sheng. Flavors are intense, mouthfeel is intense, and even though I don't "get" cha qi, body feel, to the extent some describe it that's part of it too.
Tea processing
I won't do this part justice, but we talked some about the processing steps and variations that lead to positive sheng and black tea character, and aspects. Until I get some real life exposure to processing tea leaves I'll never have much to add about this, and even conveying what others say will be of limited usefulness, since I won't be able to interpret it very well. Of course I've been hearing from tea producers for a decade about processing steps, and their own unique approaches, opportunities (from working with distinctive tea material), or challenges.
For sheng it's all pretty much what you'd already expect. One interesting tangent was about more-oxidized South East Asian sheng versions. I've speculated over and over that Thai and Vietnamese producers may be oxidizing tea more to change the character, which can offset bitterness and astringency, but which comes at a cost in terms of aging potential. That's kind of a loaded concept, aging potential, bringing in a lot of other moving parts, and preference factors. Aged sheng is a different kind of thing, and our discussion focused more on parts related to younger / newer versions. It's possible that Thai and other producers wouldn't even need to try to let tea rest / wither to increase oxidation input, that they may just not get to it quickly, and the heat and humidity might start to change the tea fast.
William didn't even need to try one of my favorite Thai sheng versions to notice that the color was quite dark for a year-old version (golden, instead of light gold). Some producers mention using a long withering process to add oxidation, and William discussed that a bit, how it works in practice.
It was all too much to convey here in detail. Finer points of what can vary in pu'er and black tea processing were fascinating to hear about. As I see it as a tea consumer we are kind of off the hook when it comes to that level of mapping anyway. In the end we need to be able to find and buy teas we like, and then appreciate them, but the parts entering in before that are a bit academic, potentially interesting, or even informative, but not a main concern. It really wouldn't work for producers and then vendors to map out slight variations in processing inputs to help consumers filter what they might like best using that input. There are too many variables. Knowing that a Shai Hong is a bit less oxidized is a good example of how very limited information might be interesting and helpful.
It may help to know more about the different inputs to buy better teas, beyond that level. Patterns in aspects or sources of teas could make more sense. Or to seek out better value? That part is always tricky. What we value others tend to value, then the market pushes up pricing level. It can help exploring new tea range, staying one step ahead of that deeper part of the demand curve, but drinking some so-so or bad tea enters in, along with trying very novel forms, and some exceptional versions.
The last range I tried that was really novel, beyond the Thai and Vietnamese teas being exceptional in slightly unique ways, related to Georgian tea, and before that Indonesian versions, then before that Nepal teas. Getting hooked on pu'er messed up that shifting exploration theme a bit; the other material and styles can't match pu'er intensity, or even complexity. For where I am personally the exploration phase has tapered off some, and I get to what I get to, but I'll skip including more tangent about that here.
What we tried
We started with some teas I had brought, to see what he made of them. His take was mixed; of course he is accustomed to trying some pretty good range. It's not that he is biased towards narrow Yunnan styles, but if Thai teas are pretty good, based on pretty good material, and not quite standard processing, there are aspects and outcomes to appreciate but it's all not ideal. The best Yunnan versions are drawing on a much more developed background.
We tried a decent sheng version of his earlier on, one that represented the lower end of his quality range. This ties back to that earlier theme of value, and what the trade-offs would be if he was trying to keep closer to the earlier, lower sheng pricing range. It was good, it just lacked a bit of intensity, and the character lacked depth. It wasn't flawed, and also not thin or uninteresting, but a little towards that.
A shou version was better, placed within that range, but I don't really love shou as much. It's nice trying good versions of it, but I've been doing that, for awhile. They just sit in my tea storage, when I come by that, and I drink that when I fast (not eat for five days at a time), because it's easier on your stomach.
A Laos sheng version was exceptional (I think maybe this one). I might've tried about as much Laos tea as almost anyone, or at least anyone not in Laos, or not selling Laos tea. I first visited a Laos coffee and tea farm before this blog even started, a few years before; it was one of the earlier teas I tried after Thai oolongs. I've written about countless teas from Anna and Kinnari Tea, and have tried plenty of samples from a friend there (thanks to Somnuc), and some of a somewhat newish production venture.
This version probably surpassed them all. Intensity was good, of course, and flavor range was quite positive, sweet and floral, almost towards a citrusy edge, but not quite onto lemon or orange. The tea was very balanced and refined, with fantastic clean character, depth, and complexity. I guess this is the kind of exceptional tea that you can only buy if you can go past that $120 per cake range I'd mentioned (it's $140, if it is that one). Is that a good value? It would cost a lot more if it was from nearby Yiwu, essentially just across the border. Since this specific version is essentially impossible to find there is no market price for it. Related to quality it was amazing; I guess that part works out.
Maybe we had tried more; it went on and on. Hours and hours into tasting it all kind of runs together, and it was fascinating hearing William's take on philosophy, and the state of the US, about China, and whatever else we talked about.
William and I are both pro-China in two different senses. He can almost be an expat resident patriot, at this point, and he is sold on the overall positive balance of Chinese culture and life in China. I'll just cite one example of that discussion, not so much about local Chinese patriotism, but about a misconception about China in "the West." We talked about social credit scoring, about how China really did experiment with the systems that we are familiar with and critical of in other countries, particularly in the US. His take is that those experiments didn't lead to a pervasive system that really does control people, or even continue to monitor them, and it was largely dropped because the earlier start wasn't promising.
Of course China is really keeping an eye on its citizens, but then so is the US, and to some extent so is Thailand. Maybe the form and related restrictions vary in the three places, and in the US it's possible there are less restrictions (maybe not enough, across some scope), but it's not as if people in China can't do or say a lot of things. Being anti-government might not go over well, but according to William most people are ok with most of the government policies and everyday living status. They don't see themselves as oppressed. That mirrors talking to a Chinese friend, one of my daughter's former classmates (who of course is from China); they don't see the differences there as so significant.
As with here in Thailand much lower crime rates and far fewer problems with drug epidemics, gang violence, and homelessness frees people, to a greater extent. I can walk around almost anywhere in Bangkok at any time of the day or night. I've not tested that out by walking in remote or poorer parts in the middle of the night (but I have in the evening), and I suppose eventually that might go badly, but in essence there are no "no go" zones. In visiting China three times in the past I felt pretty safe there too. Of course there is relatively little meaning in that; input related to living in a city for 17 years and visiting tourist areas for two or three weeks are relatively opposite things.
It's a very developed, modern country, from what I've seen, not really any different than anywhere else, beyond everywhere you travel feeling just a little different. William commented that the old-style look of the food-street restaurants in my favorite Bangkok strip of those isn't how China looks almost anywhere now, the steel tables, plastic chairs, and bright white fluorescent lighting, common across SE Asia. They've moved on. I like that about Bangkok; losing that part would kind of be a shame. Of course there are a broad range of restaurant themes here.
It was fascinating hearing about a two-tier election system in France, about how they use two voting stages to let people vote for diverse parties initially, then do a second and final selection process based around coalitions that form after the first round. I don't think this could work as a fix for the two-party limitation in the US, but it's interesting hearing about a different country using a different process, that leads to more diversity in party options.
Conclusions, take-aways
It was too much to summarize to just a few simple conclusions, but this writing already points towards a few. We talked more about social media themes, and tea vendor approaches, but it didn't condense to points that would stand alone well in summary form here.
Everyone who has had even limited exposure to William's take on the internet, in very informative Youtube videos on tea processing background, already knew that he is a true tea enthusiast. Here's an interesting example of that, in his own online content, comparing tea versions and asking if gushu versions are really worth it. His own "tea geek" interest and perspective takes a relatively narrow form, as I see it, but then that's typically how that goes. You'd need to limit scope to go that deep, and a Yunnan producer and vendor should be an expert on pu'er and Yunnan black tea.
Here's another very different video on perspective on the Covid experience that stood out to me, him conveying a philosophical view of how we relate within society, and what those kinds of traumatic broad events mean. We covered some philosophy in discussion too; of course I'll spare you an account of that.
I really thought that William would be a little quirkier; if anything that was a little disappointing. He's a bit out there, don't get me wrong, but for being a French pu'er expert he falls a little short of really being eccentric (no offense intended to Olivier; he's fine too). He's even completely relatable; all for the best, I guess. Sometimes it's hard for people so far down the path of exploring tea to stay open to a range of different perspectives, but it's nice when they can, and he's pretty open to people experiencing teas in different ways.
To me one potential pitfall of sheng pu'er exploration is people "chasing the dragon" related to quality and diversity concerns; there's always more to seek out and experience. There is more intensity, complexity, refinement, novel flavor sets, trendy origin areas, unique styles, and so on to try. That's fine, as long as all the comparisons and next steps don't lead to a FOMO based experience of gaps, and chasing status, instead of focus on appreciation of that experience.
It wouldn't be the vendor or producers' fault if people approached their tea interest in a problematic way, and I see William as appreciating a good bit of range, not steering others to always try more and spend more. Any more than any other vendor, I guess. The tea experience promotes itself, once you get started.
In beginner online group discussion I usually recommend people might start on oolong and black tea first, to avoid pu'er early on, and stay out of the deep end of the pool related to that more intense cycle of exploration. Bitterness requires some acclimation anyway, for young sheng, but it's also a lot to take on sorting out the range of styles, origins, sources, storage themes, and varying experiences. Once someone goes there they probably should cycle through some Farmerleaf tea at some point, and saying more in reviews about samples will add detail to why I think that.
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