Oolong pu'er, revisited

 

one of my all-time favorite teas;  it was fresh, bright, sweet, fruity, and approachable

I wrote about this theme long ago (in 2018, here).  Before posting this I'll re-read that, but it's really on a slightly different topic.  In the past people that's what people called sheng pu'er that was approachable when young (newish), or else "pulong," if it wasn't bitter and astringent.  That could have related to some oxidation occurring as a processing input, but the tea character could have worked out that way for whatever varying reasons.  Plant type material and processing varies, and climate and weather input does, and so on, so a tea could be approachable and lack challenging forms of aspect intensity for different reasons.  One other input could be that it was over-heated, so more similar to green tea, which works out in some comparable ways, but that isn't the same thing.

The main idea, as I remember it, was that sheng pu'er that is sweet, mild, floral, and fruity (often including that range) early on won't usually age as positively, and it's more suitable for drinking within a couple of years of production.  Or maybe that was just my take, which could've shifted some since then?

This is about pu'er with actual oxidation input, more specifically about a few related versions like that from Vietnam, so really "pu'er-style tea," given the Yunnan origin naming designation limitation.  That naming convention is a bit odd, to me.  Matcha isn't restricted, that name, or Oriental Beauty isn't (which is kind of politically incorrect now anyway), and limiting something like Darjeeling to that named origin area is completely different.  But I get it, and will just move on.

the 2023 (left) and 2024 versions; it may not only be extra age making one darker

Quang Tom Lao Cai origin examples

This theme comes up a good bit related to South East Asian origin sheng pu'er (or the same tea under whatever name you apply), but not as explicitly as in this case, where the vendor is open about the input.  It's written on the label (for a tea I just reviewed, from the Quang Tom producer out of Lao Cai, Vietnam):

Name: Freshly Fermented Green Tea Cake (Green Tea Series) 

Ingredients: 100% ancient Shan Tuyet tea buds, sun-dried and fermented. 

Storage: Store in a cool, dry place with humidity < 70%, away from direct sunlight. 

Shelf life: Suitable for long-term storage under appropriate conditions. 

Instructions for use: Take 5g of tea and brew with 250ml of boiling water (>95 degrees Celsius), steep for 30 seconds, then pour into a cup or mug to enjoy. 

Food Safety Certificate: 04/2024/NNPTNT Phone: 0961.129.186 Address: Bac Ha Town, Bac Ha District, Lao Cai Province 

Produced by: Quang Tom Cooperative, Bac Ha District, Lao Cai Province, Vietnam Production date: 06/2023 Net weight: 350g

Then again it's not really green tea (mentioned on that label), but what else would they call it?  Some South East Asian producers call it pu'er anyway, but I can see why more don't.  The most common work around is to call SE Asian "pu'er" dark tea, a reference to hei cha, and that doesn't work very well either, because pu'er may or may not be hei cha, depending on how one interprets the category breakdowns.

That reference to fermentation could just mean aging input, change related to fungus and bacteria activity since it was produced, but I'm taking this to relate to an addition of extra oxidation.  Whatever words cover those two processes in Vietnamese may not be clearly distinguished through translation, or a decade ago it was pretty common for Chinese producers to refer to oxidation as fermentation (again probably related to a translation error).

I usually use "sheng" to describe the tea type, but if they translate that on to "raw," that actual meaning, then it makes no sense.  Raw what?  The old Vietnamese name related to the sun-dried form, per some hearsay input, calling it "dried tea," which doesn't really help.  I've seen it marketed as snow tea or shan tea, but none of that is a real common type name (and per some recent input some of that is a reference to plant type range there, so I guess to some range within the Assamica variety, not processed tea type).  So green sort of works, even though it's not really that.

Related to this tea, to 2022, 2023, and 2024 versions of it that I've reviewed here and here, base flavors of honey and dried apricot stand out, with citrus or other spice range varying by version.  That makes it sound like there is some pleasant complexity, and that's true; to me the teas were quite enjoyable, complex, and well-balanced.  They are personal favorites.  They just lacked typical sheng bitterness and astringency, which for many would be giving up a lot.  For people who have only tried factory tea versions it might be hard to relate to that being a problem, but those inputs balance a lot better in higher quality, more whole leaf versions.

In discussing this with Steve of Viet Sun he raised a good point about why some might not like teas like this:

I think they are interesting. And also very easy drinking compared to traditional or semi traditional young sheng.

One of the big things people are into with puerh is the terroir inputs so making reddened puerh really takes a lot of that away. 

So you can have teas from different places that taste similar.  That kills the experience for a segment of that community.

I agree completely, even though I hadn't been thinking of it that way.  A version tasting like pear, honey, dried apricot, and citrus is distinctive, but somehow a lot of the complexity young sheng expresses does seem to get narrowed down in related versions.  It can be hard to write out the list of a half dozen distinctive flavors, as people tend to, but even without generating such a list you generally get a sense that there is a lot going on with many forms of sheng, usually seemingly accurately attributed to a narrow origin terroir input.  

Bitterness balances the rest in an interesting way, and that astringency adds depth.  There might not be more flavors expressed, so complexity could be similar in one sense, but somehow it often seems there is more going on.  It's not always completely positive, but in the better half of all cases it all is generally good.  Transitions across infusion rounds can vary more, even though that also just depends.

Farmerleaf more oxidized sheng pu'er examples

This theme comes up elsewhere, in other cases than atypical South East Asian tea processing.  Here is an online post from Farmerleaf on this subject; that I see as interesting background:

That's labeled as "Partially oxidized Puerh tea: let's try it again!," relating to a 2023 experiment.

William regularly explores and experiments with tea style variations; his channel includes lots of reference to that.  To me it's especially interesting related to descriptions of sheng and black tea processing.

Of course I'm not saying that this processing is somewhat identical (in the Farmerleaf experiment and the Quang Tom producer version).  That tea, in his video, was oxidized through a very long wither, prior to the frying (sha qing / kill green), and per discussion with Phuoc, the Quang Tom producer, at least some of the oxidation in the other Vietnamese versions occurred after that step instead, and maybe more of it.  I'm listening to that video again now as I write this; I lose track of what I've seen.

The darkening of his leaves during the frying step does look similar to the darkened Quang Tom version.  It's interesting that William mentions using a low heat to limit the charring of the leaves, in that extra dried conditioned (the withered leaves, left to rest for an extended time, weren't re-wetted).  His description goes further; it's really worth watching.  He says that roasting the tea can be included but it will simplify the tea character, so it has to be used sparingly, and that he isn't including that extra step for that batch.

I think I want to keep it that way [not pressed, as moacha] because it's an entertaining tea of course but maybe not achieve that a tea Enthusiast would would like to have every day.

He ends up saying more about how processing inputs, the frying approach, changes things than how the extra oxidation makes a difference, but that's especially interesting:

I don't Shuffle it too much because I want the steam to build up in the batch, so I will use minimum shuffling just to prevent any strong burning.  And then if we want to make a roast I think we'll try to do that a bit towards the end.  But I'm a bit scared of doing that roast because a light roast can really enhance the complexity of the tea, but on the other hand if you do it too much it also simplifies everything, so roasting is a bit like putting sugar in the tea.  It's a bit like it somehow when you smell it's more complex but the mouth feel tends to be a bit more simple... 

He never did include video content description from when it was finished, in that clip, beyond this comment:

I can smell both and you could say a new long-like fragrance so an oxidized fragrance mixed with some notes of roasting...

photo of the leaves from the product listing, probably before sun-drying

A bit of Google search turned up the product listing:

Spring 2023 Reddened Puerh tea

Processed on April 8th 2023

Ancient tea garden leaves from Nuo Gu Wan, Jingmai village

24 hour-long withering, check the video to know more

This is a continuation of an experiment we made last year. While conventional Pu-erh tea benefits from 2 to 6 hours of withering, we let these leaves on our bamboo baskets for a whole day. This leads to a reddened tea, which has to be processed carefully due to the lack of water in the leaves. After pondering the question over the length of a video, I decided against roasting the tea, and kept the temperature on the lower side during the session.

Still no aspects description there, but we can accept a customer comment as limited feedback:

Nice experiment. I was lucky to get a bag of 70g.

On then first infusion seems to be a white tea, fragrant, elegant smooth sweet thin no astringency and bitterness. With the second infusion it is showing slowly up its raw puer character . I like it very much.

Another comment mentioned the approachable nature, limited astringency and bitterness, and a hint of citrus.  

If the Quang Tom producer had used an extra roasting step that could explain the darkened leaves in the 2023 version, since they look to be charred a bit in processing.  Or maybe they also pan-fried (kill-greened) partly dried leaves, also using a long wither, and that led to some being singed a little during the frying step.  William stressed that you need to be careful to avoid over-roasting, and the related trade-offs he is cited as mentioning here.  In a limited form it might be fine, but extending those comments a little going too far it could add a flaw to the tea, not just a tradeoff, but also some actual char effect, as we more often see in roasted Wuyi Yancha oolongs.  

You really should watch his video instead of accepting my summary, if those ideas are of interest.  He goes further with background and outcome descriptions, which I could cite more of word for word to avoid mischaracterizing that or getting it wrong, but it seems better to just cross reference it here.  It's not that long a video, and it's interesting.

That earlier post on oolong pu'er (in 2018)

This tied to a past favorite sheng version that I was talking about just then (in 2018; before I had the same degree of exposure to pu'er experience, only a few years into main exploration then):

A comment about a Moychay Nan Nuo sheng relates directly to that (here on Reddit, by Jay, if he's familiar, who sells tea here):

It'll be interesting to watch it age over several years but my gut instinct is that it will fade rather quickly in BKK. The fruity flavors often indicate oolong style pu that will fade out with age.

I had framed a similar idea in that original review more as a question.

I love the fruit in it, and that overall "bright" effect.  Often when I'm drinking sheng made within the past year I'm saying this might be better in a year or two, a little less edgy, but in this case I'm not so sure.  If that brightness were to decline, as it would to some extent, the balance might be just as positive, or more so, or the tea could've been best drank when very young like this.

All that is probably as good a subject theme intro as what I've written.  That tea did die a couple of years later; it shifted to include warmer and deeper tones, and lost the brightness and fruit, most of what was positive about it.  If my tea budget had been deeper I would've re-bought that, or the next year's version, to try aging what I didn't drink right away, but I didn't.  Kind of unrelated background, I bought that tea in a shop in St. Petersburg at New Years time in 2017-18.

so many amazing sights on that Russia trip, but this captures my favorite part

the more iconic scene version

I retried that 2017 Moychay Nan Nuo in 2020, documenting where it was then, and it was fine as a 3 year old version, but as I remember from trying it since it was going quiet.

Then there is the "awkward teen years" theme to account for.  At a tasting meetup over this past weekend we tried a nice Xiaguan version from 2018 that I really like, that is good, but is at an awkward stage in its transition process (reviewed here last year).  It's missing part of the more forward, higher end flavor range and punch, and the warm flavor tones haven't completely swapped in for that brighter floral scope yet.  I still kind of like it like that, even though it is a little out of balance.  It's sort of supposed to be; aging transition makes the most sense earlier on, when it's limited, and then later, when it's more complete, but not so much in the middle.  The timing of that varies; I've tried 10 year old tea that still seems pretty fresh, stored cool and dry, but 8 years of time in Bangkok contributes a lot more transition, just not in exactly the same form.

It seems like a good place for me to add the next source of evidence, something that really brings all this into clearer focus, related to a tea I've tried over a decade of aging.  I've tried Thai versions that were somewhat approachable early on that I've experienced changing over a few years, but the starting point was never the same (really bright, sweet, and fruity, with really limited bitterness and astringency), and I haven't tried any aged longer than this last 4 year example (nearly that; it will be 4 in 4 more months).  I've probably tried a good bit that was older that had already went dead; I mean examples of the entire sequence. 

I've tried at least a couple versions of somewhat older Wawee Tea Thai sheng, but if anything their versions run a little closer to standard Yunnan style, so that really doesn't work.  Of course the same applies to Hong Tai Chang versions, if that is familiar.

Other cited input in that Tea in the Ancient World "Oolong Pu'er" post

Returning to this post section theme, I re-read that 2018 post from this blog, and it's interesting (kind of new to me too, for being that far back).  It includes input from William, again of Farmerleaf, citing him as the Bannacha owner.  His 2023 thoughts on the subject represent what he now thinks, instead of from way back when, but I'll cite part of it to get a feel for the input range:

By controlling the Sha Qing time and the wok temperature, you can make redder or greener tea, and, as long as it's not extreme, I think there's a large span of well processed tea. Then, it depends on your personal taste, what kind of aroma you prefer, and which mountain you're dealing with. I like a greener processing on Mengku tea, because it brings out the high pitched fragrance of this area. Redder tea might be good to emphasize on the body, the mouth feeling.

The subject of tea community discussion history is interesting to me (which is something of a tangent here).  It's no secret that William re-branded to Farmerleaf as a new business when moving to Yunnan; this is from the Farmerleaf "about us" page:

Farmerleaf was created in 2016; it is the continuation of our efforts to provide high-quality teas worldwide.  We started selling tea online in 2011 with www.bannacha.com which is based in France and offers mostly Pu-erh tea. We are now based in Puer city, Yunnan, in which we have our office and storehouse. We have chosen this city because it is in the center of the Pu-erh tea production areas and the region produces a wide range of white, green and black teas, it is also a good place for storing Pu-erh tea.

So some of that blog post is about discussion of this theme on Tea Chat prior to 2016, written about in 2018.  This post reviews a 2016 Jing Mai Miyun version from Farmerleaf in March of 2017; maybe I knew how it all connected in 2018, that his business had either renamed or reset, or maybe that had got by me.

It's all an interesting read, to me, that old oolong pu'er post, but it's lots of mixed input from lots of sources.  People talk about primary flavors, body / feel, and aroma varying, probably using terminology in comparable but perhaps slightly different ways.  Shah82 passes on input in an extended citation, that doesn't narrow down to a short phrase that I can pass on about this subject here.  His accounts of his experiences were always interesting.  And probably still are; after checking in on that shaving forum he had discussed tea in, Badger and Blade, the last post by Shah8 (probably the same Shah) was last Monday, on page 401 of a sheng of the day thread.

Here is what he said about "oolong pu'er" in that post citation (of Tea Chat discussion):

I will say that taste itself is highly deceptive. It depends on your water, whether you let the dry leave sit in the bowl a week or two, or any number of things. It can change with the years. The classic way people buy bad tea is by preferentially buying "approachable" flavor or aroma puerh. Which is why you see so much problematically tinkered puerh that gives a oolongly fruity or floral taste (or more red and mellow malt). 

For me, the easy way to tell, again, is to see whether that aroma *endures*. Many of these teas also will betray badness by becoming hard to drink or pointless to drink by about brew 6-8. *Few* puerh, however, are done straight processing green. A little butteriness is sought after. Or a little hongcha, or some nice smokiness. That's alright, so long as most of the underlying qualities are still there to age.

To me the rest doesn't condense down to ideas that I can simplify and clarify here.  Everyone isn't saying exactly the same things.  Intuitively the tea would become less like normal sheng for including this processing variation, and less like green tea by extension of a sort of relationship between the two types, and more like black tea.  That doesn't really work as a summary.  Bitterness and astringency decrease, and mouthfeel and flavor profile changes, in the ways described here, and in varying ways mentioned in discussions.

One interesting recurring theme was that overheated sheng, which would be much closer to green tea than oolong, could get mixed in with that category.  The typical flavor range wouldn't be the same, but the tea would be aromatic and fresh, losing bitterness and astringency (although it would retain a different kind of edge), and it wouldn't age in the same way.  Put another way it would include a different balance of main compounds than conventional sheng.  It still might seem like "oolong pu'er" to most people, but really it would be more of a hybrid matching green tea range.

I tried a version of Thai sheng from Aran tea that reminded me of this theme, reviewed here in 2020.  They called that pu'er, related to the naming convention issue I covered earlier.  It might sound like I'm saying that they don't know how to make sheng properly, which I don't intend, but even read that way they could have adjusted processing approach in the past 6 years.  I just keep repeating that the character reminds me of green tea in that review, and guess that it might not age-transition well.  I liked the tea; something in between normal sheng and green style would just be heated slightly more in pan-frying, and it could still be pleasant, novel, and fresh, as that was.

Conclusions:

So do these teas ever retain great aging potential, in any form?  I'm not sure.  The 2022 Quang Tom is still pretty good, just shifting to warmer flavor tones, which seems fine, except that I really liked the brighter, fruitier versions earlier.

How did William and Farmerleaf's versions work out?  There's a little on that in that section, a website comment, but trying such a tea fills in a lot more.

To me it's an even more interesting question if moderate aging ever works really well.  I've tried plenty of Yunnan sheng that worked well aged in the 5 to 7 year range under much cooler and drier conditions than in Bangkok.  Here is an example:  a 2021 Tea Mania Gua Feng Zhai version.

I don't keep track of any but the most common village names, and I suppose that could be one, with it presented as from an in-demand Yiwu local area.  That tea is still bright, fresh, and sweet, after five years.  That probably wouldn't be true if it had spent those years in Bangkok, where it's always 25 - 38 C (mid-70s to 100 F), and almost always 65 to 80% relative humidity.  At the coolest and driest times maybe only 60% RH, but that comes and goes fast.

Of course I'm not claiming that the Yiwu / Yunnan tea version I just mentioned was "oolong pu'er," that it was extra oxidized, or overheated in a kill-green step (so more like green tea), or that it doesn't have great aging potential (although a good number of Yiwu origin versions that I've tried didn't).  It seems likely that there is a direct opposition between versions being approachable early on, bright and sweet, highly floral or fruity, and lacking significant bitterness and astringency, or full and structured mouthfeel.  That tea had good feel at 5 years along, as I remember.  This is a mention of that, in that post:

...Spice range definitely picks up, but it's broader than the sassafras was last round...  Then that's rounded out with root spice, more like ginseng, maybe just not quite as punchy and medicinal as ginseng (which is also subtle, in a different sense).  It has changed a lot over the last three rounds [it had shifted from early pear and dried mango range on to floral scope, and then warmer spice tones].  

Of course these flavors link well with the pronounced base mineral tone, which isn't dropping out.  Feel and aftertaste are significant, but those can be more intense in some other versions.  Overall balance is the nicest part, the way it all comes together each round... 

So none of this condenses down to a simple generality, beyond that one (approachable new sheng probably won't age transition as positively, at some point).  But that is only part of a broader story, that would vary depending on why the tea is like that, and that generality could be wrong in some cases.

I think the positive complexity that we expect from sheng, as it ages / fermentation transitions over 20 years or so, wouldn't be present, across many different cases.  That last review excerpt only implies how that goes in lots of cases, mentioning warmer spice range entering in, but that related to a more standard form sheng.  I haven't clearly established that "oolong pu'er" will always just go dead, even though to me that's implied quite a bit here, with sources openly stating that.  William--again of Farmerleaf--explicitly stated that he was curious about this himself, in that video, wondering how the last experiment before that one would transition later on.

If a somewhat oxidized "oolong pu'er" example didn't balance well at 5 to 7 years along it still might not be clear if it's going dead or just in between character forms.  I would expect that I could tell the difference, from the interim aspects form, but it might not be as clear as I'd expect.  

None of this relates to that 2018 Xiaguan example, surely; the starting point must have been very different.  I could re-try the Nan Nuo version I referenced at the beginning to add more related background, but for sure it was never oxidized to the degree these Vietnamese versions are.  These are "oolong pu'er" in two different senses; that Nan Nuo one related to it being approachable, for whatever reasons, and then these Quang Tom teas are intentionally quite oxidized.  

The "somewhat green" overheated during pan-frying pu'er theme is surely a third and different thing.  One would expect that to age even more poorly than the other two types (oxidized sheng, and sheng that just happens to be approachable early on, due to mixed other inputs).  But it would be interesting to try a couple of versions to know better.

2013 and 2022 Xiao Ba Wang (Mang Jing and Jing Mai) sheng pu'er

 

I'm reviewing another two versions of the Legend of Tea flagship branded sheng pu'er type, this time the 2013 and 2022 years.  The teas are from different origins each year, so the 2013 is from Mang Jing and the 2022 from Jing Mai.  Mang Jing isn't familiar; let's check what Google's AI response thinks that is:

Mangjing Mountain Pu'er refers to Pu'er tea produced in the Mangjing area of Jingmai Mountain, a region known for its ancient tea forests and unique tea varieties. Specifically, the tea trees in Mangjing are a natural hybrid of Assamica, referred to as Mixed-Leaf varietal, which contributes to the tea's sweetness and aroma. Jingmai Mountain as a whole is recognized for its large, well-preserved, and ancient tea forests, with some trees being hundreds or even thousands of years old. 

So it is just a local area in the broader Jing Mai region, according to that source.  Plant types varying some in different areas is a normal, recurring theme, but also one that's hard to place.

It may seem odd trying two very different years like this, and it is.  The idea is to contrast how an aged and relatively unaged version compare, even though differences in the material, related to origin location and other inputs, would be as much of a factor.  Initial general character, aging potential, and how each tea transitions through aging wouldn't be the same.  As luck has it maybe not so different, given the location proximity.

They sent a number of years of samples; somehow I had missed that earlier, writing the first sheng pu'er review post as if I wouldn't try these.  The years are spread out so that I can still do two more comparison posts, that make more sense, of closer year spans, of two other versions from consecutive years.  And from different origin areas, so it will be about discussing differences as much as similarities.  And quality, and aging potential, and I suppose guesses about the storage environment.

About "dry storage:"  In talking to the vendor again after the last post "dry storage," referenced in a product description, is used in a sense natural storage often is for Hong Kong environment descriptions.  It's unadjusted, related to the natural climate, instead of being held at a high humidity level to speed up fermentation transition.  Of course very local micro-climate varies everywhere, even in different parts of a city, but in general lots of Malaysia is pretty hot and humid, as Thailand is, to a less extent even in the "mountain" areas in the North.  By that I mean that the annual low in Bangkok is in the low 20s C, around 70 F, but 25 C / 75 F is a more standard low temperature, and it's in the 30s most of the time (90s F).

The Legend of Tea vendor listings and descriptions:

2013 Xiao Ba Wang Raw Puerh Tea ($70 for a 200 gram cake, equivalent to $125 for 357 grams)

MangJing mountain ecological tea has the best aroma, which is similar to the ancient tree tea. The aroma is mellow and last long, the serrated edges of tea are not obvious, and the tea buds are slightly thin. Due to good ecological conditions, the MangJing mountain tea comes with a strong orchid fragrance is the best raw material for the processing of puer tea.

2022 Xiao Ba Wang Raw Puerh Tea ($34.80 for a 200 gram cake, equivalent to $62.12 for 357 grams)

This year's Xiao Ba Wang is made from ecological spring tea from JingMai Mountain, and the most important feature of this year's Xiao Ba Wang is "sweetness"! What is different from the usual "sweetness" is that the sweetness of JingMai tea comes directly and quickly!

The sweetness of JingMai tea comes out when you pour down the hot water! The aroma of this tea is orchid fragrance, and the taste is fresh, sweet, and smooth, you can feel the sweet aroma of this tea enveloping the whole mouth and tongue. The tea broth is fine and smooth with a full and mellow taste.

I checked another source to hear more input on Mang Jing, since AI content is unreliable, and the part about natural growth and thousands of year old trees wasn't promising:

Spring 2019 Mangjing (a Farmerleaf listing)

Ai Leng Ancient Garden, Mangjing Village, Jingmai Mountain

In the heat of the Spring season, we visited our friend Ai Gong. He lives in Mangjing, a mountain adjacent to Jingmai, 10km away from our village. The altitude is 200m lower than our mountain, it peaks at 1400m. It is populated by the Bulang minority, unlike Jingmai, which is Dai...

The leaves in Mangjing are smaller than the ones that grow in Jingmai, the varietal is probably slightly different, despite the close distance between our respective mountains...  The tea shares a common character with our jingmai gulan, but it has a different fragrance, more minerality (probably due to the higher amount of old trees in the gardens) and a somewhat more aggressive profile. Jingmai and Mangjing are like two brothers with different personalities.  You will get your money's worth with this tea.

Their site doesn't show the price, but Google's site listing thumbnail entry says that it was $128, which is probably right.  What does that mean, that a $128 cake is "good value?"  It's a coincidence that Farmerleaf sold that as a new version at the same price Legends of Tea is selling theirs as an aged one, 12 years later.  But it's different material, for sure; you can't say all tea from an origin area is the same, and when a local area vendor describes a version as exceptional for that area it's promising.

In trying to confirm that price I looked up a Steepster review, by Togo, from back then, reviewed in 2020 (which never did list the price, but it adds one detailed take on that 2019 tea):

This tea from “greater Jingmai area” is light bodied with a very up-front floral but not perfumy character. I am not a big fan overall, but I do like its creeping, grounding cha qi that induces a great mind-clarity.

In the aroma, there are notes of light smoke, citrus zest, beef and focaccia. Taste is sweet and flowery with a milk note initially. Soon enough, a nice bitterness appears that has a tart and nutty backbone. The finish is buttery and the aftertaste vegetal, cooling and sweet with notes of olives and peach. Later on in the session there is also a hint of an interesting black pepper like taste and a more woody character overall. All in all, there is complexity, but I didn’t find the profile to be particularly enjoyable. The tea also doesn’t really last beyond 200 ml/g worth of infusions.

Flavors: Bitter, Black Pepper, Bread, Butter, Citrus Zest, Floral, Flowers, Meat, Milk, Nutty, Olives, Smoke, Sweet, Tart, Vegetal, Wood

Maybe not completely relevant, but interesting to consider.  It's also interesting how bitterness kind of drops out as an assumed background condition in sheng reviews (in the flavor list here, but not covered in the write-up).  You might comment on the level being low or high, but that's just how one year old sheng goes, it includes that.

Review:

(2013 Mang Jing left in all photos)

2013, Mang Jing origin:  it would be conventional to use a rinse for aged sheng but I didn't.  Flavor isn't pronounced in this; it's normal for sheng to need a round to open up, hence the conventional use of a rinse.  It's still interesting to me getting an initial sense of the tea, even if it doesn't get far.  Flavors are clean and warm in tone.  It should be nice once it gets going.

2022, Jing Mai origin:  more comes across in this, but I still might save more of a breakdown to the next round.  Of course the tones are much lighter, and include some bitterness, not showing up yet in the other.

2013 Mang Jing, #2:  it's interesting how far this aging has progressed in a dozen years, pretty far along.  Warm tones are mostly along the line of aged wood, towards a medicinal herb flavor, not so far off an incense herb range.  Root spice like ginseng also works as a description.  The effect is quite clean; there is no mustiness of off flavor range.  Intensity is pretty good.  Feel has a nice structure, including just a bit of dryness.  It seems like this will keep evolving over the next couple of rounds though, as if it's not to where it's going to be yet.

2022 Jing Mai:  again a much younger sheng range, not including overpowering bitterness, but that's still a significant input.  The flavor is a bit fresh, but already leaning towards warmer tones, including some of that.  One vegetal input is a bit towards pine, a normal flavor aspect in Jing Mai tea, but it's as close to green wood in this version, at this stage.  Floral tones don't really stand out, but there may be some of that filling in background, connecting with sweetness.  Intensity is good; overall balance is good.

2013, #3:  a pleasant spice-range sort of herbal note emerges.  It had tasted like medicinal herb before, but this is a bit towards sassafras.  Feel is nice, with some fullness and structure, but it's not challenging.  Aftertaste experience is nice; it really carries over.  

This isn't all the way through aging transition, of course, but it's not falling short enough that you tend to speculate about when it will be better to drink.  It's ok now, it's just going to keep changing.  To the extent this includes wood tones those tones are warming, a bit towards a cinnamon spice range, but it doesn't taste like cinnamon, it's just a comparison.  So like aged tree bark?  I guess that works.

2022:  the bitterness and astringency level in this is in a nice place.  Those inputs tend to soften but not drop out over the first few years, and brighter and fresher flavors start to change, but sheng pu'er versions are still young at 3 years into aging.  This probably is at a level comparable to 5 or 6 years into Kunming aging; in some cases sheng stored cool and dry can not change all that much in the first 8 to 10 years.  Intensity is good, and sweetness level is nice in support of the rest.  Feel is fine, and intensity carries over into aftertaste.  It's a nice tea, at a nice place in transitioning.

So far I've avoided extending aspect notes into conclusions in any way.  This is nice, but how good?  What is the quality level?  Is the other a great example of a 12 year old sheng, beyond flavors and other aspects being a particular way in any given case?  I'll try to add some thoughts on that over later rounds.  It's not an easy judgement call to make.  These lack flaws; that's a good starting point, that makes them at least average.  And then I think they're at least a little better than that.  

Judgments within the narrower range of the higher end is always more difficult.  Maybe I've never tried the best of the best of what comes out of Jing Mai?  I've tried a good number of versions from that broad origin, including quite a few from Farmerleaf, that other vendor mentioned in a citation, but Mang Jing isn't familiar at all.  A simple count of teas you like or don't like doesn't mean much; someone could accidentally try below average quality tea versions over and over, especially if their main filter related to trying the lowest cost versions.  Or preference for aspects varies, a different thing than a quality assessment.

2013 #4:  similar flavors as I've described.  The balance gets better and better as it goes, the way those come together, and the way that root spice / driftwood scent sort of range emerges.  The feel is nice in an interesting and difficult to describe way.  There are no heavier tones one might associate with more humid storage, but then that also must depend on the starting point input.  For the tea being this subtle and balanced it didn't start out as harsh, complex, and intense as factory teas are.  But it's also far from fading away; the balance it strikes in the middle is a good one.

I've been re-trying a Jing Mai version from in between these years, maybe 2019 or so, that was an autumn harvest version, and the intensity is mostly gone now (not from Farmerleaf, but it seems the source doesn't matter related to making this point).  The tea is fading to include some warm depth and that's about it.  That's still ok for an experience, but this tea expressing more interesting flavors, complexity, and feel is much better.  

That tea was on the inexpensive side, and not that intense to begin with, so I'm not really upset that aging it isn't working out.  I had bought two cakes and drank one new, so I've had the earlier part of the experience, the one I consider more positive.  Now it will work well as a tea to have with breakfast, when I feel like something subtle, or I could keep most for another half dozen years and keep trying it when it's really faded (with more comment to follow on whether or not a temporary lapse in intensity could relate to a "teen years" in between transitions state.

2022:  pronounced bitterness really stands out in comparing these two.  But in comparison with young sheng versions, and not even challenging ones, this isn't all that bitter.  It's a main component, and intensity is pretty good, but that's still moderate, since a lot of 3 year old sheng might not be all that approachable yet.  

I think quality is pretty good for these.  I'm never going to be able to be as clear as I might be on that, putting it on a scale of 1 to 10, or comparing it to known benchmark versions.  I'm not sure what "boutique style" teas are ever used as benchmarks.  I guess an individual could be familiar with whatever they drink a lot of, and their own comparison could tie back to that, something from one of the main Western vendors, for a Western tea drinker (from Yunnan Sourcing, Farmerleaf, White2Tea, etc.).  The older form of Yunnan Sourcing Impressions series seemed designed to fall in between categories, described as an alternative to something like blended Dayi / Taetea 7542 versions, but really the style for those was never all that similar.

Related to how this might be better some pine and green wood isn't bad but swapping in a bit of somewhat warm and transitioned floral range might be nice.  The brightness and sweetness might relate to a citrus tone, but it's subdued and integrated enough that this comparison or interpretation might not come to mind.  But at least that complexity works, letting the flavor balance, as the feel, intensity, and aftertaste aspects all kind of work out well together.  

This may only be "pretty good" level tea, versus something amazing, but ranking well in relation to what I've tried from other vendors is a nice level to achieve.  Given the moderate pricing I referenced in the last review it's punching way above its weight class [editing note:  I hadn't included the price or listing citation content yet, but this being equivalent in price to a $62 357 gram cake is on the low side, sold as a 200 gram version instead].

2013 Mang Jing, #5:  a bit more old book flavor joins that pronounced root spice and driftwood range.  This is improving across rounds, a good sign.  At 12 years old this drinks a lot like an aged sheng; hot and humid storage conditions can lead to that kind of result faster.  You can tell it's not quite to the level of 20 to 25 years of aging input, but this would be comparable to 20 years of cooler and drier storage, just as it is, except that the effect varies slightly, it's not about fermentation input all being one uniform kind of change.  This has fantastic potential to age to be a bit smoother, mellower, with deeper flavors, within the next 3 to 4 years.  Intensity is still there to support more transition.

It's on to guessing but in another decade this might move on to fading some instead.  The most powerful teas tend to not fall into a pleasant, more aged form balance as fast as this has, in "only" 12 years.  But intensity is good now; there is still lots to appreciate.  And it's past the awkward stage where aged flavors and character is evenly balanced with newer / younger range inputs, when teas just don't make sense.  

There's talk in pu'er circles about a tea not tasting like much at one aging transition level, then with intensity and warmer and more age-related flavors filling intensity back in.  To some extent that must happen, as such a broadly discussed and expected theme, but in my experience the opposite is more common.  You can still taste and feel plenty, all across the aging transition, it just doesn't make sense, or isn't pleasant, right in between young and truly aged forms.

2022 Jing Mai:  this is clearly a slightly age-transitioned but still young sheng, just as it should be.  This is a pretty good aging range for drinking this tea.  It would've been ok quite young, if someone was ok with the higher level of astringency and bitterness.  Which is still often moderate for Jing Mai origin teas, compared to something from Menghai areas.  Or is that wrong?  As I tend to perhaps over-repeat I'm not a great reference for mapping typical sheng aspect range to origin locations.

It complicates things that low elevation grown, monoculture produced, somewhat chopped material, high fertilizer input tea is much more harsh, and if you get in the habit of drinking that from one region and versions of the opposite background from another then you'll mix up the inputs, and over-emphasize origin related themes that are really tied to different causal inputs.  To some extent I must be doing that, in ways that I can't sort back out.  And referencing broad production areas never really works well; generalities can come up, but teas also vary a lot.

Earlier in the social media history of tea drinking people in tea groups would debate these points.  It was a great input for comparing your own limited experience range to others'.  That has quieted down quite a bit (for example, Steepster is pretty much finished as a discussion and review site, per my understanding).  

I think that's because the wave of tea enthusiasts from before my time, from the 2000s, had already went quiet when I started exploring and writing a dozen or so years ago, and that next "class" I discussed themes with has also dropped out talking about it.  Now 20 to 25 year-olds discuss tea experiences in Discord servers, which is fine, since it's an effective channel for that.  But for us "old-timers" the chat thread format is unfamiliar, or not as functional, since instead of individual discussions being saved for later review you have the current history of 15 or so main themes available.  You can't really scroll back to see what was covered over the last year, never mind a few years, since it's too much volume, with lots of small-talk mixed in between interesting theme-related discussions.  

That's already plenty of tangent on that.  I'll leave off taking notes here, even though a few more changes will turn up.

Final conclusions:

I've already concluded plenty, so I'll keep this short.  To me these are really good teas for being sold at moderate prices.  I can't really place them in the standard levels related to other Western outlet sources, if they might represent $80 to 90 cakes, or the $120 to 140 range (and $60 to 70 cakes are mostly a thing of the past, in those main sales channels, related to this higher end boutique style of teas, at the risk of using that categorization term a bit more broadly than some do).  

A market outlet like Yunnan Sourcing would sell plenty of older sheng, from 9 years back, or older, but you might need to compare this 2013 version to pre-2010 versions stored in Kunming, related to demonstrating a similar fermentation transition level.  I haven't drank through a mountain of related samples of those from them to place them.

These teas are surely amazing for the moderate pricing level; I'm not afraid to draw that conclusion.  For people open to spending $200 or more on a cake, who have tried many times over what I have of aged sheng range, maybe they would seem to fall short of expectations.  

The Jing Mai character was nice, but you can find interesting variations of very pleasant teas from that area, and in general pricing is lower than the higher demand areas (with $62 representing a relative rock bottom for tea pricing in this type category).  The Mang Jing character was also nice, representing a pleasant aged-tea range, and novel character, but aged sheng is a broad subject, open to lots of varying interpretation about most positive aspect ranges.  Maybe someone could critique it for being a bit approachable or even lacking intensity at this age / place, thinking that if it was still a little more challenging it might land on an even more positive final result in another half dozen years.

To me all of that might be splitting hairs; these are good teas, interesting and pleasant.  Value is all but off the normal scale, delivering more experience for less cost than it's almost possible to find in standard Western outlets, potentially with limited exceptions.  The last 2025 Farmerleaf Jing Mai Miyun I tried, their take on an inexpensive blend, was really good, for what it was, and that now lists at $45 for a 357 gram cake.  Producers using blending to offset limitations in different input lots is another tangent I'll skip saying more about here, but results can be good for that, just not the same as narrow-origin source material, trading out some distinctiveness for good balance and complexity.

A pleasant tea meetup with a nice tasting lineup

 

only 5 of the 7 who attended; I forgot to take the picture earlier

Friends gathered at our house again to try some teas, probably the last of a series of a half-dozen somewhat related meetups.  Three meetups were held where I live (in Bangkok, for now, in Honolulu soon), or four, if you also count a couple of friends dropping by in January (visit vs. meetup; not so different).  

To me those are mostly about the people joining experiencing the teas, and appreciating interacting with others, more than a formal tasting theme.  I could have said ten times as much about the teas, at the cost of most of that interaction dropping out.  Even doubling the limited information and input would shift the tone, from a friendly gathering of friends to more of an educational experience.  That's fine too, but when people first meet each other it's better if they can chat a good bit, and people joining has always included some of them repeating and some being new arrivals.  To me it's important for them to be able to express themselves, and for it to be about all of them, more than the teas.  I don't find myself as interesting because I already know those stories.

Interacting with the people was as pleasant as the teas, or more so for me, because I've already tried those teas.  But the teas themselves were exceptional, interesting for different reasons, and more of a sensible tasting theme or pattern emerged this time.  We talked more about whatever tangents came up, and our own backgrounds.  One person had traveled a lot (and many participants have been nomads throughout the various meetups), another was coming to tea from a drink-mixing background, and one was a long-term local resident working in freelance writing, with a diverse background.  So fascinating!  

Two friends I keep meeting are teachers, who alternate working and traveling, with one working on finishing a Master's thesis now.  One friend in attendance, who I've met a couple of times, is a Zen meditation instructor, although we didn't seem to get into that part so much.  That might not be an easy subject to say just a little about.  As usual people were from all over:  the US, Canada, Germany, and Italy, with a longer list of where they've also lived.

This writing is more about the teas instead; I won't summarize the rest about all that.  Mentioning what the teas were, and adding reference links, would help them see what we had tried again, and to me the sequence was interesting.  We keep trying different patterns of experiences, beyond generally moving from lighter to heavier tea character range.  This struck a balance between that kind of pattern and generally just trying what I like, with a secondary focus on the teas being novel.  It worked.

1.  Mao Feng Qimen, Chinese black tea (from Dylan Conroy of the Sweetest Dew, not reviewed, but here are other related versions reviewed):  I missed trying the last sample Dylan had sent of exceptional Qimen, and this was a good time to get to it.  

More ordinary Qimen is just another standard commercial black tea, but versions do vary.  I guess this was made from the plant type used to make Mao Feng, a main green tea type (or at least that seems to make the most sense).  It was heavy on buds, quite refined, complex, and pleasant in flavor, including cacao and a bit of soft malt.  It's not light in the sense that a rolled oolong would be, but the warm tone doesn't make it a challenging tea, and I didn't feel like starting all the way "back" at green tea or light rolled oolong, even though I have those around.  I like black teas better, and I wanted to get on to more sheng pu'er tasting this time.

not that tea, but two other exceptional Qimen from Dylan

2.  Dian Hong (Yunnan) style Thai black tea from Aphiwat, a 2024 version, from wild origin material (reviewed here, with a contact link to the producer here).  This is a tea I've been drinking regularly for awhile, and one we've tried in another tasting version, or maybe even two of them.  It's a lot like Dian Hong tend to be:  complex in flavor, expressing a lot of positive range (cacao, etc.), with good mineral depth, and good balance.  Part of the range could seem to include sourness to some (Huyen didn't really like it, or Dian Hong in general), but I love it.  

It's funny how I'm a bit put off by tartness in a black tea, but one leaning a little towards a sour range is still fine.  To me you wouldn't normally make this connection in trying this tea (seeing it as sour), but when you think about it that kind of works, and for people only adjusted to trying variety Sinensis black tea versions the difference could be off-putting, as it is for Huyen.  I just had it with breakfast, on the day I'm editing this; it's also great with food.

that Thai black tea

3.  local Vietnamese sheng (2024 from Quang Tom, reviewed here):  I love this tea!  I loved the 2023 version, and this 2024 version might be a little better.  It's quite oxidized, which is strange for sheng in general, but not so unusual for SE Asian versions.  According to Seth--mentioned in this blog many times, someone who looks into Vietnamese teas a lot, and researches them along with Huyen--that might be a normal step for Vietnamese sheng processing.  I've talked to this producer and it's intentional.

A tea version essentially in between sheng and black tea probably wouldn't age well, past just changing a little over a couple of years, but if those first years are positive enough that doesn't matter.  I drank a 2023 cake version pretty fast, and I'd drink this 2024 cake I own faster, but it's the second one I bought, and I don't want it to go as fast as the first did.  Tones are warmer than for conventional sheng, of course, and bitterness and astringency are limited, but plenty of fruit stands out.  It helps to push it just a bit to get the intensity up to the normal crazy sheng level, but you can push it as much as you want, since there is nothing negative to brew around.

2023 was pressed a little too hard (left), but the 2024 form is perfect

4.  Viet Sun Son La Vietnamese sheng (2023 version, reviewed here):  I really like this tea too; it's also the second cake I'm on for this same version.  I don't mind the repetition at all, or that I've been drinking Thai sheng from Aphiwat over and over as well.  I try plenty related to the blog review theme, and it's nice drinking favorites beyond that.  It helps keep my tea budget moderate too, but this cake is in the normal price range, I think, probably listing for around $80 now ($77; I checked during editing).  I bought it for one price increase less than that a year ago, and also the year before, so I think it's worth it. 

It's a bit more challenging than the first sheng we tried; it includes conventional sheng bitterness and astringency, just not the most ordinary flavor range.  To me it expresses more fruit than floral tones.  It made for a nice tasting sequence already, bridging from two types of black tea onto a hybrid sheng, then one that's more conventional, but not necessarily completely standard related to most Yunnan forms.

the Son La Viet Sun cake

5.  Man Xi 2008 sheng pu'er sample:  (finally back to using that second term)  I don't know what this is, or who gave me this; I grabbed about 20 teas from samples or favorites that we might try, and aged sheng somehow fit at this time.  Another I almost brewed instead was slightly older "factory" tea, a numbered CNNP or Taetea version (if I checked the number again I'd know; if it ends in 1 that's CNNP / Zhongcha and 2 that's Taetea / Menghai Tea Factory), as Google's AI explains:

First two digits: The year the recipe was developed

Third digit: The grade of the raw tea leaves, or maocha. The scale ranges from 0 to 9, with 0 being the smallest and 9 being the largest

Fourth digit: The factory that produced the tea

For example, a tea cake with the recipe number 7542 was developed in 1975 and made with fourth-grade tea leaves by the Menghai Tea Factory. The Menghai Tea Factory is one of the most famous producers of Pu'erh tea in China. 

Somehow it seemed likely this would be more of a boutique range version, which can be interesting, and definitely more refined.  It was like that.  I know no background related to this version or that area, but I'll cite a source describing another tea that might parallel it, or it might not:

Our 2007 Organic Manxi Mountain Raw Pu’er Cake uses sun-dried Shaiqinmao tea leaves (Yunnan big-leaf variety) from ancient tea trees grown on the organic tea plantations of the Manxi Mountain area. It is produced by Fuhai Tea Factory in Menghai County, Xishuangbanna, Yunnan.

The Manxi Mountain area is located at the Sino-Burmese border in the district of Daluo Town, Menghai County. It features a large group of very old large-leaf tea trees, planted by the Blang people over 500 years ago.

People keep buying aged sheng to find versions like this one, unless they really need super high complexity and intensity, as factory versions exhibit, if they don't mind rough edges that can go with those others.  Or this more refined version is another type of offering, more subtle, but potentially still well-balanced, or other 25 year old teas in a broader range might have settled but haven't faded.

Some aged sheng does just fade, if the type isn't suitable for this 17 year old, relatively transitioned range, but the intensity in this was ok, pretty good.  Not necessarily on the high side for intensity; it was quite drinkable and refined, but also a bit subdued.  Tones could've been a little warmer; maybe it hadn't been in wet storage for a lot of that time, which tends to emphasize that.  

For us not really focusing in on those teas as much as we might have I don't think most people picked up on just how good this tea was (although one person mentioned it), but that's all relative anyway.  I thought it was a bit exceptional, based on patterns of my own expectations, related to prior experience.  But then I also commented how I liked a 2006 Xiaguan 8653 version more, one we tried together two weeks ago, even though we all agreed it had a strong "barnyard" taste.  A clean version of that, mind you, like horse saddle, not like aged barn or manure smell.

that cake, which I really like, commonly sold in lots of outlets (the Xiaguan, not Man Xi)

6.  Oriental Leaf Fu "brick" (cake) hei cha (from 2020), with golden flowers (reviewed here, with the vendor page here; I think this was the Fengqing version, not the Lincang origin one):

This was quite a shift, moving from pretty good aged sheng on to novel hei cha.  That adds a lot of rough edges and rustic tone, but this tea type is pleasant, and interesting.

The golden flowers input is positive, and pleasant, while definitely unusual, related to most other tea experience.  It's hard to describe; it's a little like yeasty, fresh baked bread, just not exactly like that.  Maybe it leans toward floral and spice range at the same time, while based on warm tones.  While trying the next round, the one after this, I kept this tea brewing to try a really strong infusion version, and that was completely different, still approachable, but almost shockingly intense, heavy on mineral layer and those other flavors.

lots of mold on that Fu cake, which is considered a good thing

7.  1991 Thai (Wawee) Liu Bao:  (from a friend, so there is no link or review of this) aged tea is interesting, how it picks up depth, and smooths out any rough edges that were ever present.  For powering through a half dozen teas prior to this, and not slowing the pace, probably that novelty and depth didn't really come across so clearly.  

This seemed like pretty good aged Liu Bao, how those should be, expressing that set of typical interesting and complementary flavors.  It tasted like Liu Bao, just an aged-mellowed version of one, as it should have.  To me prior to relatively complete aging Liu Bao a harsher edge and flavor like cement blocks can stand out, but this had moved past that, to the extent it ever included it.

8.  2024 Na Lang Laos sheng, from Farmerleaf (reviewed here, with the vendor page here):  this is a recent favorite, shared by William Osmont on his somewhat recent visit here.  It's really good, probably the best Laos sheng that I've tried, and I've probably tried at least 15 versions of that.  It's bright, positive in flavor range, well balanced, clean, complex, and intense.  A couple of people noted that it was their favorite so far in the tasting (so overall, it being the last one), and it was mine as well.  

It was interesting moving from light to heavy across that whole sequence, and then back-tracking to this version, and upping the quality level a little at the same time.  Those other teas were already good, good examples of those types.  But dynamic, intense, and balanced sheng is something else.  

Surely there is other sheng out there that can seem to take the next step in different directions; I've had versions like that, some from those highly desirable origins, and others from more ordinary places, that just happened to be really good.  It was interesting hearing people try to place what aspects or character made this different, and that good.  Interpretations always vary, and it's not as if one could be objectively right more than any other (although it can seem like that to some).

the Farmerleaf Na Lang Laos sheng

It was a good place to leave off.  8 versions is a lot of tea, and we weren't tasting the first 2 or 3 infusions, and moving on, we were really drinking the teas.  I brewed all that in a 200 ml gaiwan, stacking (mixing) infusions every time, either 2 or 3, usually 3, so we lost a little in terms of noticing transition sequences, but gained ground in keeping up a pace, and just drinking some tea.  Even drinking 4 more isolated infusions of each--not mixing them, and only drinking a little--would relate to 32 rounds in total.  The tasting ran long, but not as long as that approach would have taken, more like 4 hours instead of the planned 3.

Snacks worked out well too; there is a good bakery not far from our house (Little Home), and what they produce is often made in small item forms that work well, tiny croissants filled with sausage, small cream puffs and egg tarts, and so on.  You can't really drink a good bit of 8 versions of tea, and many of those intense versions at that, without that sort of adjustment, eating something to offset it.  One person brought a mango, and pistachios; those sorts of inputs are nice to add variety.

It made for a nice experience, both related to all those teas and focus on conversation and appreciating the rest of the group together.

one of the earlier meetups, with Huyen and Seth at the bottom (who I kept mentioning)

Reviewing Farmerleaf (Jinggu), Viet Sun (Vietnamese), and ITea World aged shou pu'er

 

I'm comparing three shou / ripe pu'er versions, one from Farmerleaf (so of course from Yunnan), another from Viet Sun (Vietnamese), and an aged version from ITea World, part of a themed aged tea set.  Going in I kind of didn't know what to expect, but I expected the Farmerleaf version to have an edge, because they've been sourcing pretty good Yunnan teas for awhile.  

I suppose it worked out as one might expect; it was a little better, but the Viet Sun was pretty solid, and novel, and the ITea World version represented well-aged tea well enough.

2023 Ku Zhu Shan  ($140 for 357 gram cake)

Ku Zhu Shan old tea gardens, Jinggu area

Fermented in Menghai in Winter 2023, medium-heavy fermentation

Complex mouthfeel, a hint of aggressiveness

Ku Zhu Shan is a village located east of Jinggu town, it has a lot of 'teng tiao' gardens, in which the tea trees are allowed to grow tall with fewer long branches, it's a special way of pruning the trees. This tends to give a more powerful brew by limiting the amount of leaves growing. 

You can notice the leaves are big and rich in tea buds. This tea has a complex taste which will carry you through a long session. You could even find hints of bitterness if you brew it strong. 

This was pretty good (I add the citations after the notes).  There's no way I'd ever spend $140 on a cake of shou, but at least it's good.

Thượng Sơn Small Batch-Ripe Puerh 2024  ($52 for 250 grams)

A nice small batch production from a new ripe puerh making friend of ours in Hà Giang. The raw puerh used to make this tea is spring 2023 high quality old/ ancient tree material from Thượng Sơn that was wok processed which isn’t too common in ripe puerh production. 

This tea brews up slowly into a rich dark brown/ black brew with some mahogany red hues. Sweet with earthy fragrant wood, and herbal dark sugar notes. This tea retains a bit of bitterness which balances well with the heavy sweetness. Thick mouthfeel and a lasting finish with a relaxing qi effect. 

The high raw material quality of this tea shows over the course of the session and performs well over many rounds. This tea is med-low on the fermentation scale and should age nicely with proper storage. 

The description doesn't sound so different than the Farmerleaf version, but this does cost about half as much.  Note that the sample seems to say that was a 2017 tea version (in the following photo), while this is claiming 2023, so it may not be identical.  There wasn't much shou being produced in Vietnam 8 years ago so it seems likely that writing is wrong, or unclear, especially since this listing from the same location is on his site.  [later edit]:  this was a 2017 version of a tea they sell more recent versions of.  Strange it was produced that long ago.

Quality level, complexity, and depth gives up a little (assuming that it is this version), but for as good as this is I'd definitely buy it instead of that Ku Zhu Shan version.  For people into good shou, who value the difference, the opposite conclusion might make sense, but that's as hard for me to relate to as people drinking Japanese green teas.

For the ITea World sample the information will be limited.  It's from this set, 100 grams of mixed aged teas selling for $76 for 100 grams (so it's by far the most expensive, but it's the rarity of other versions driving that pricing, not so much this version).

iTeaworld 2025 New Year Tea Gift Set (Year of the Snake Edition) - The Collection of 10 Aged Teas: Includes 20-Year-Old Ripe Pu-erh, 40-Year-Old Hei Zhuan (Black Brick Tea), 30-Year-Old Oolong, and more

Not much in there about this tea, or even in the site background.  It's Yunnan shou pu'er; that's it.

Review:

Farmerleaf Khuzhu Shan (the rinse):  I'll just pass an on initial impression, prior to the actual real steeps.  For a flash infusion this is pretty good; it's intense and rich, with good depth and feel already.  This will be a challenge for the other two to match.

Viet Sun (Thuong Son):  much thinner and less intense, but then this is only the rinse.

ITea World:  it's smooth, and has depth, but it's not looking good so far.  But then for this being much older, 2003, it may come around quite a bit after a rinse, removing a lot of what isn't as positive fast.

Farmerleaf KS (first actual infusion):  that's pretty dialed in to good shou range.  Some cacao works as a base, along with general earthiness, and then a bit of spice and dried fruit stands out from there.  Intensity is good; I brewed these fast to try a light round, between 15 and 20 seconds, and it's already there.  Depth is good; feel is nice, pleasantly thick.  Aftertaste doesn't extend as with sheng but it does support the experience of complexity.  It's clean.  Even the early fermentation rough edges seem gone, within two years of this being made.  It's a shame that I don't like shou more; this is a really good example of one.

Viet Sun:  there's an interesting distinctive flavor range in this; thinking it through that was the one way that it could hold its own, given the first version is as good as it seems.  There's a perfume-like note (possibly a foreign input, but the rest of flavor is quite novel, so maybe not), and rich, warm, earthy tones, along with pleasant spice range.  It might be slightly thinner and less intense and complex than the first, probably giving up the most related to depth, whatever I take that to mean.  More fragrant flavor range is quite pleasant, and also clean, but the feel and base flavor range (depth, earthy and mineral tones) doesn't match it.

ITea World:  a pronounced aged furniture input is interesting, like aromatic woods and essential oils that have been resting for a couple of decades, or longer.  It's also relatively clean; I guess age does tend to soften rough edges, and this is 22 years old, with the Vietnamese version 8 years old, plenty of time for a shou to settle.  Related to the Farmerleaf version that lack of age could have limited positive nature, depending on the starting point.  Sometimes inky, petroleum or tar-like flavors can transition into a creaminess, over some time.  It seemed to be a bud-heavy version, that probably wasn't fermented to death (absolutely completely), so it probably retained brighter flavors when new.  Sometimes high bud content shou ends up tasting like cacao, as that did.

Richness and depth are fine, and intensity.  All of these are pretty good, really.  I expect a longer soak will really let the Farmerleaf version shine, and improve the Viet Sun results some, and this will just gain a touch more intensity.  This older version could fade faster than the other two; aging can convert flavors in interesting ways but different kinds of transitions can lead teas to "brew out" faster.  I'm probably using one gram or so less of this version, which won't help it in comparison.  

Related to this showing off what a 20+ year old shou is like this really works.  In terms of matching the complexity and quality of whatever this Farmerleaf version is, and the novelty of the Viet Sun tea, that's asking too much.  It's not noticeably inferior to either, it's on the same general level, and that's already a major victory.

Farmerleaf Ku Zhu Shan (#2):  these brewed for closer to 30 seconds, for a longish soak.  It's unusual how good this is, how positive all the layers of flavors and other aspects are, and how it all comes together.  It will be interesting to hear what this is.  

Plenty of cacao stands out.  That can taste like dark chocolate, or the actual powdered coffee bean, or I suppose even a little like cocoa, but in this it's like ground cacao bean, like what you bake with, or even how the nibs smell and brew out (fresh chunks).  Warmth stands out beyond that, a clean version of earthiness.  The rest blends a bit but warm mineral, some spice tone, and what I take to be limited dried fruit input all combine, along the line of a hint of dried dark cherry, but interpretations would vary.  Balance is good, the completeness of the experience.  As for intensity shou is only ever so intense but this is doing fine with that.  Feel is relatively rich, a little oily; it's positive.

Viet Sun:  actual flavor layers are even more novel in this.  It's expressing something more like novel and mixed spice range.  Warm tones are pleasant, and feel is nice, with some underlying mineral, but it doesn't strike that really unconventional balance of hitting every note in sync that the first (Farmerleaf) version does.  It's good, and it's balanced, just a little lighter and less complex and intense in overall effect.  I really didn't expect it to be this good.  I should be mentioning more of a flaw than a lack of intensity across some scope, like an off flavor, odd feel, something like that.  Vietnam just hasn't been producing high end shou for long, and it's not just a matter of piling up some decent material and keeping it wet but not too wet.

As a sheng drinker it's odd switching this back to personal preference as a filter.  I miss that hit of intensity, the high bitterness, sweetness, strong flavor, intense feel, crazy complexity, and I suppose although I don't acknowledge it often the body rush from consuming it.  These are just pretty good.  Maybe on a cold fall day it would really make more sense; it's probably about 31 out now (C; that's almost 90 F), and ridiculously humid.  You don't crave warm toned teas on a day like this.

ITea World:  aged effect, the old furniture theme, and some extra medicinal spice picks up, along the line of whatever that really diverse set of spices they sell you in Chinatown herb shops as medicine smells like.  Like ginseng?  But really complex; like a few different things.  This is warm too, but as with the Viet Sun version it lacks the same intensity and depth of the Farmerleaf version.  Which is odd, because it has pretty good intensity, complexity, and depth.

I think the high buds input in the Farmerleaf version might be impacting the outcome.  Buds-only white teas can end up relatively flavorless (not always), but even those usually have great depth.  You never drink good Jin Jun Mei and feel disappointed by the lack of complexity, intensity, and depth.  Probably finer leaf material are covering one aspect range, and buds input another, and they overlap to balance really well.  Or maybe that's completely wrong.

I'll do one more round and drop taking notes.  These will transition a little over more infusions, but not enough to make it worth writing or reading about.

Farmerleaf (#3):  not really different, but then it was pretty good over the last couple of rounds.  Maybe I'm making it sound like that good balance and complexity really matches my personal preference more than it actually does.  I appreciate it, and like it, but again I'm a sheng drinker.  For whatever reason I really crave black tea experience as well, and can also appreciate oolong novelty and refinement.  I appreciate that this is so good, but I don't love it.  I think pretty much all shou drinkers would, maybe even across liking different styles, since this has a lot going on, and it's essentially all positive.

Viet Sun:  that atypical flavor complexity shifts just a little but it doesn't change.  This probably wasn't affected by an external flavor input (eg. something nearby in storage), because all types of external flavor inputs fade faster instead of just changing in form.  It didn't really taste off, or adjusted, I'm just clarifying that.  You can probably get any tea to taste like old furniture by storing it in an old furniture cabinet for a half dozen years.  Maybe that's actually not a bad idea.  This just includes unusual flavor range naturally.  

ITea World:  this still tops the others in terms of "aged taste."  Warm slate mineral works as a nice base, sweetness and thickness is fine, then lots of flavor complexity joins that, again in an old furniture and Chinese medicinal / root spice range.  

Drinking this on a winter day could seem magical, in a rustic cabin, maybe with some neutral flavored butter cookies, and snow falling outside.  In comparison with two other good shou versions on a hot day in Bangkok, at 12:30 now, not even in the morning, it's more about comparing strengths, what aspect ranges stand out.  Probably I'm losing something in missing the intensity of experience in sheng, turning up the volume in exposure, while these tea inputs add depth to the set of things you already experience.  That, and warm tones match with cold weather.

Conclusions:

All simple enough, the Farmerleaf version is a little better than the other two, the Viet Sun tea is solid and novel, and the ITea World represents aged shou well, giving up some complexity, depth, and novelty.  For people who haven't tried a lot of 20+ year old teas that part would've seemed more novel than it does to me.  It doesn't come up too often, but pretty regularly.

I really can't relate to anyone paying 40 cents a gram for shou, but if that part is fine the Farmerleaf version is worth it.  To me why even pay 20 cents per gram; decent factory shou might cost two thirds that, and that can be fine, since all shou is as close to the same thing as is true for any tea type (just how I see it; obviously shou drinkers probably don't agree).  Here is an example:

2022 Menghai "7572" Ripe Pu-erh Tea Cake  ($36 for 357 gram cake)

This probably was a little rough-edged for the first couple of years, and may not have fully settled yet.  In Yunnan Sourcing's words:

A classic recipe from Menghai. This is an average blend of 7th grade material that was fermented last year, so the cake does not have that just fermented taste, rather it has already mellowed a bit. Another 6 months to a year down the road and it will make even more improvements in taste and liquor clarity. When brewed this cake will taste a little sweet and lighter than the creamy 7262.

That "7th grade" relates to the material being chopped in form, as much as some general quality level.  All three of these teas surely are better than this, but from a "shou is shou" perspective not by much.  Farmerleaf's equivalent value-oriented entry, 2023 Bangwai Ripe, sells for $36 per cake; I'd probably buy that instead.  

William gave me these samples I'm trying from them on a visit here (many thanks for that), and after checking I have some of a 2023 Mengku version yet to try.  Since it lists for $60 per cake it represents another variation of a good-value theme, just not tea as inexpensive as Dayi versions.  Shou really does vary, from heavier flavored from being fully fermented, to being lighter, or even heavier on cacao range if a version includes more buds.  All three of these being pretty good, and relatively novel, might've made it seem like it's normal for above average shou to work out like that.  If a version is from a reliable source and the character is positive one can be nice, complex and well-balanced, but including a bit more rough edge than these did would be quite normal.

For this ITea World version representing the more ordinary range in an aged tea tasting set it held its own better than I expected compared to two interesting and positive shou examples.  It definitely showed off aged effect the others didn't, and some people would value that more than I probably seemed to.