Vietnamese tea status, according to two experts

 

Steve of Viet Sun!

Seth and Huyen, visiting Bangkok

The tea industry in different countries in South East Asia can be dynamic, and Vietnam has a broader range of good tea to offer than any of its neighbors, except for China, and styles and higher quality levels seem to be developing there.

I asked two friends to share input on this.  Steve of Viet Sun is a main Western facing vendor, focusing on pu'er, or the local equivalent type.  Seth is a tea researcher, working on very developed writing on tea, along with Huyen, one of my favorite tea friends.  Seth is too; they're both great, and knowledgeable to a degree that's hard to relate to.

How does the perspective and demand on tea seem to be changing in Vietnam (by consumers)?

  

Steve:  I work mostly with old tree assamica teas (what many people in Vietnam call trà shan tuyết or shan, snow shan tea in English) as well as wild varietal non-sinensis teas so I’ll only speak on that segment of the industry. I see a lot of people getting into these types of tea, many just over the past few years. There are more and more tea shops opening and offering many styles of higher quality teas in bigger cities like Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City. The demand is still quite low compared to green tea from Phú Thọ and Thái Nguyên provinces though. 

Many tea makers are experimenting with different styles. For example, you can go to villages in Cao Bồ, Hà Giang and find multiple teamakers who make halfway decent- good versions of many different tea styles, while 5 or so years ago it was difficult. Many producers see other producers making new styles of tea (raw puerh, black, white) and they start producing it themselves with varying degrees of success. 

An example of this is some time in the past couple years, a couple tea makers started making tea stuffed wild tangerine tea. Now many tea makers all over Hà Giang are making them. Many however, apply that higher volume “export tea” mindset into making these other styles and often fail to sell these teas due to competition from higher quality similarly priced options. 

Yt Y local area tea trees; photo credit to Steve

that tea, prepared as a tea cake, or bing

the right spelling (accent / diacritic)

Seth:  Matcha has exploded in popularity among the general public. Matcha products are now widely available in cafes all around Vietnam, and many tea factories have started producing matcha. This fits easily into the milk tea trend that started more than ten years ago. 

In terms of tea shops offering specialty teas or a general trend of specialty tea consumption in Vietnam, that is still only a small part of the overall market. Most locals middle aged or older drink green tea produced in Thai Nguyen, but there’s a rising demand for teas that use less industrial production techniques, which has created an opening for teas from Vietnamese heritage varietals like the various Assamica varietals locals call “Shan.” 

On the higher end, there are a lot more players in the market than there were ten years ago. These are mostly business people from Hanoi who see opportunities to invest in tea as a luxury product for higher income brackets in Vietnam. Some of the tea makers who focused on the Chinese market in the past have started expanding into the Vietnamese market since COVID forced them to look for new markets due to border closures. The shift to local markets seems to be enduring. There is also a rise in Chinese teas being sold in Vietnam, and some Vietnamese are making major investments in bringing Chinese tea to Vietnam, teas like Wuyishan wulong, Liubao, and Yunnanese teas. This is a small trend but seems to be prominent.

Editing input:  just a random tangent, but it's interesting that "oolong" always should have been "wulong," that the original transliteration was pretty far off (per my understanding, at least).  Now the right term depends on how you see language use conventions and transitions, and it really doesn't matter.

How is the industry changing in response to that, or do industry changes lead that other consumer perspective change?  Are producers exploring new styles, or is awareness of traditional tea styles broadening?

Steve:  The general attitude of many tea makers I know seems to be to focus more on higher quality tea or at least higher quality compared to the high volume “export grade” tea they were making for China. The Chinese tea industry seems to be quite unstable at the moment so many people are focusing their efforts locally as well as internationally in countries besides China. 

Seth:  Traditional tea styles in Vietnam are mostly dead or dying out. Most are extremely localized, within a few towns or districts, and they are not something that most Vietnamese people are even aware of, or would have an opportunity to try. In the specialty tea community in northern Vietnam, there is some interest in reviving tea production methods for Vietnamese yellow tea, which is made using an older technique for making Puer tea. Some are using this as material for making lotus tea, which is closet to the techniques that were used to make lotus tea about 100 years ago. 

The most popular traditional Vietnamese tea is still boiled fresh tea leaf. Locals will buy it at morning markets and drink it throughout the day. But this is mostly the older generation. The younger generation doesn’t tend to drink fresh tea leaves because there are lots of other beverages to choose from now. 

Editing input:  without some context it may seem like this input contradicts his last comments about people tending to drink Thai Nguyen green tea (sometimes branded as "fishhook" style).  Seth is surely aware of a range of very local tea styles that most of us will never hear about, even though I don't intend to add too much here to clarify what he really meant.  Western marketing tends to make it seem like there is really a much narrower subset of types out there than we see in online markets, even related to Chinese teas, which get the most exposure.

-are Facebook pages or online platform shops changing how tea is sold in Vietnam?

Steve:  Yes, many tea producers are on Facebook and many customers buy tea directly from them. Many tea shops have websites but they are often not updated. You usually have to contact them directly to see what their current offerings are.

Seth:  More rural tea makers are able to sell their teas directly to customers via Facebook. This offers the possibility of much higher income that they would make selling tea harvests to factories. However, the quality is not always consistent, and some of the tea can be quite rough, so Facebook marketplace doesn’t always translate to long term economic benefits for rural tea makers. In some cases, they wind up with bags of tea that they struggle to sell because of quality issues. Customers also have a higher risk of getting a product that isn’t satisfactory.

Editing input:  I've had very mixed experiences trying to buy tea locally, more in Thailand, but also from Vietnam.  Sometimes it works well, especially with others' help related to awareness of types and options, but you never see clear product listings, and issues like communication (language issues), money transfer, and shipping are all typically quite problematic.

-has foreign Western tea demand changed (consumer purchasing from outside of Vietnam)?

Steve:  I see interest in Vietnamese teas in the West growing year after year. Many people both tea business related and consumers travel to Vietnam to visit tea producing areas and tea shops in the cities. I don’t know exactly how other tea businesses are doing here but our sales have been growing gradually year after year.

Seth:  Changes in Chinese demand are pushing Vietnamese tea makers to look for new opportunities in the local market. The exact numbers are unclear.

The market for specialty Vietnamese tea is still miniscule outside of Vietnam, but awareness of Vietnamese tea is continuing to grow as tea enthusiasts introduce it more regularly to markets in the US, Europe, and Japan. Overall, this is still pretty small scale.

-can you add a little more about what is of interest to you related to Vietnamese tea experience or tea culture development?

Steve:  I really enjoy spending time in the tea mountains. The scenery is beautiful, there are many regional food and drink specialties and the culture of the different groups of people living in these areas is very interesting. Some tea areas have tea trees but there is little or no tea making happening there. Some areas just sell raw leaves to factories in other areas. I work with the local people and share what I know about tea processing and the tea industry in Vietnam. The state of protection of the tea trees is quite depressing in many tea areas here so It’s important to demonstrate the value and potential of what tea can provide with the people living there. 

I am currently focused on exploring new tea areas, learning more about tea production and the history of tea culture in Vietnam especially in the different tea producing areas. My favorite style of tea is raw puerh so I really enjoy getting to appreciate teas from many different terroirs in northern Vietnam. It’s also always fun to meet people interested in Vietnamese tea and share with them what I think are good examples of teas that represent the current state of tea in Vietnam. 

Seth:  There are more efforts now to create a unique Vietnamese tea identity by encouraging local ceramicists and potters to make tea ware, and locals tea enthusiasts are putting a lot of effort into spreading Vietnamese tea to an international audience, and pushing to improve the quality of Vietnamese tea products. 

Thoughts on this input

A Vietnamese tea friend, Huyen, who any longer term readers would be familiar with, just posted photos of a new tea shop in Hanoi (or a relatively new place; it could be an update about a renovation, or new space).  It's my understanding that shops are developing, especially in Hanoi, as mentioned in comments.  Huyen and her family (Tra Viet is a family business) sell a broad range of teas, of course, but they also focus on sharing demonstrations of traditional tea brewing practices, which are essentially the same as Gong Fu Cha, but surely also slightly different.

Huyen and her brother (her family is also great)

that shop, in Hanoi

It's a great time to explore Vietnamese teas, before that trend for higher demand catches up with expanding production supply, and costs rise.  

More basic range is also high in potential for exploration, so one might stay open to that side too.  That range isn't as widely available online as one might expect; Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, and Indian teas draw a lot of online focus, and Chinese and Japanese green teas are more popular.  It's kind of a shame, because even basic Thai Nguyen region "fishhook" style green tea can be nice (and I don't even love green tea), and higher quality, more novel types all the more so.

tea meetup with them in Bangkok

Steve Shafer on Vietnamese wild-origin teas

all photos but finished tea imaged credit Steve's FB page

The following is a series of questions and answers about Vietnamese teas, about variations in types, especially wild-origin sheng, and all sorts of related background issues with Steve Shafer of Viet Sun. 

For people who are touchy about how the pu'er / puerh designation is used outside of Yunnan, the regional type designation theme, I think it works here that his first reference is to "raw puerh style" tea, versus just calling it pu'er, and then he doesn't awkwardly keep repeating that long version.  I tend to include a similar designation statement in every related post, and then just call it sheng afterwards; there has to be some practical work-around.

Can you describe what high quality tea production looks like in Vietnam, related to the most interesting styles produced and general demand?

My experience is mostly with the old tree “wild-origin” type teas so I will comment mostly on that. For raw puerh style would be good raw material selection, wok processing compared to kill-green machine processing, single day sun-drying on bamboo mats compared to tarp drying, clean factory conditions. Factory design in these areas can be similar to what you would find in Yunnan and the other bordering countries.  

The most famous green tea in Vietnam is made in Thái Nguyên. Some people still use woks and make tea from older, seed-grown tea trees there.

 

What are your personal favorites?

I’m a raw puerh lover at heart so that makes up most of what I drink on a day to day basis. I’d say my favorite areas for Vietnamese raw puerh are Tủa Chùa, Sùng Đô, Háng Đồng and Lào Cai. I also really enjoy teas of all styles made from those wild purple varietal trees. They tend to be easy drinking, gentle on the body and have interesting physical and mental effects for me. 

What channels are selling the best teas in Vietnam now, which forms like dedicated website portals, Facebook groups, shops, etc.? 

Many tea producers are on Facebook and it’s quite common for customers to contact them directly to buy tea. There are many tea shops in major cities like Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh but it seems like only a few have success selling tea in-person to customers. Many physical tea shops have an online presence through a website and/ or social media channels which is where I’d bet most of the sales are taking place for them. 

What is next for even better tea production to develop in Vietnam?

A major factor driving this is demand. With higher demand for these good teas, more producers will focus their efforts on making them. Knowledge will be shared and the overall average quality of tea in a given area should rise. One of the most important factors in wild-origin tea production is raw material quality. Many of these tea tree areas have unsustainable management practices and a decreasing quality of raw material. With a higher demand for quality should bring about more farmers implementing more sustainable tea area management practices. The government might eventually get involved in offering protection and implementation of these more sustainable management practices as well.

If someone had already tried pretty good rolled oolong, fishhook style green tea, and sheng from Vietnam what would be next for them to explore?  New regions, even better versions, or something else?

Trying teas from other terroirs in those styles you have enjoyed and from other reputable vendors could be a good next step. Some of the classics for me would be Tủa Chùa/ Sùng Đô raw puerh, Tà Xùa green, Suối Giàng silver needle white, Hoàng Su Phì black, Cao Bồ ripe puerh. Those wild purple varietal teas from Lai Châu province can also be great but try your best to buy from vendors with sustainable tea making practices. 

Based on my experience lots of Vietnamese sheng is oxidized a little more than for mainstream Yunnan style, but in plenty of cases this can be exceptional, if drank as young tea.  Do you feel that this impacts aging potential?  Is it something that you think producers should correct for, or does it work matched with some material type, or as a local style variation?

Yes, that is quite common here. One of the biggest factors resulting in those higher oxidation teas is weather. The spring and autumn tea seasons are quite foggy/ rainy in many tea areas. Some teas could have been under withered and/ or have had a slow multi-day sun-drying stage. These two factors can both result in a higher oxidation and “reddened” tea. Another factor that results in those higher oxidation teas is lack of a good processing schedule. Some producers do not follow processing schedules conducive to making good tea. Some could be left too long after kill green/ rolling before drying, dried in a thick layer on nylon tarps etc… Weather is something we cannot change but having a good processing schedule is something we can! 

Those unintentional higher oxidation teas are very common but there are also some pleasant intentionally oxidized teas being produced. I’ve seen producers do everything that a typical high-quality raw puerh processing schedule would include but extend the time after rolling by a few hours. I’ve also seen some people dry the leaves about halfway, keep them overnight inside the factory, and then dry them in a thicker layer the following morning. 

For aging potential, I think these styles of teas are better young than aged. The oldest raw puerh in this style that I’ve tried was 5 years old and it was already almost like a black or long aged white tea. The balance of bitterness/ astringency/ sweetness was off for me but it would be interesting to see how these teas develop over longer periods of aging. These “reddened” teas could be suitable for people new to raw puerh and/or anyone looking for a more gentle, easier drinking raw puerh experience as the bitterness and astringency are reduced significantly.

Is development and increase in incomes in Vietnam proportional to awareness and demand expansion of better teas?

I think so. The economy is growing rapidly and there is a rising middle class. It seems like many people have more disposable income than before and are taking up hobbies. Healthy/ green activities are becoming more mainstream and high quality tea easily falls into that. There are new tea shops opening frequently in bigger cities like Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh. 

Are mainstream forms of better versions of teas expanding in any way?  Is there anything like a Vietnamese Dayi or Xiaguan, or a comparable large high quality tea production, marketing, and sales, across any main tea type (black, green, per region, etc.)?

A couple of larger scale companies have been around for a while and are popular in the country. Shanam, Bash Tea, Tân Cương Xanh and Trà Việt come to mind. Shanam and Bash Tea focus on wild-origin teas, Tân Cương Xanh focus on Thái Nguyên green tea and Trà Việt on a bit of everything.

Can you say a little about terroir differences in Vietnamese wild origin tea in relation to Laos or Yunnan tea?  It’s an impossibly broad theme, and one that mixes with too many other process related factors, but an example or two of how you see it would still be interesting.

I haven’t been to enough places in Yunnan and Laos to give you concrete answers but generally the weather in the tea areas in Vietnam is warmer and more humid than areas in Yunnan. Many tea areas here have foggy, humid, misty weather many months out of the year. There are more plants/ mosses/ lichens growing on and around the tea trees in Vietnam compared to Yunnan. The elevations of good tea areas in Vietnam are lower on average than the ones in Yunnan. This could result in different soil compositions/ quality?  But you’d have to ask someone with more experience than me about that. 

Can you add a little on the difference between a general wild origin “good material” theme and final prepared tea aspects varying?

In raw puerh, raw material really is king. I’ve had teas made from great raw material and rough processing that still ended up being pretty great. On the other hand I’ve had tea made from average/ lower quality raw material that was processed well and resulted in just mediocre tea. The “taste of the mountain” shines through unless the processing is really off. 

I’ve tried Thai wild origin material tea that was quite good, distinctive in different ways for different versions, but one example was unusually sour.  Is this familiar as a plant-type related input?  Of course it could also relate to a processing flaw, but it seems like an unusual flavor range approaching sourness from some purple teas isn’t completely unrelated.

Sourness is a common note in many of those wild non-Sinensis varietal teas here. That sourness can manifest as an unripe fruit, tamarind like note in certain tea styles that I really enjoy if it balances well with the other flavors. I’ve also had sourness Assamica black/ white/ puerh tea but that was due to processing issues. 

Can you say a little about purple plant type tea?

Purple tea seems to have a couple different meanings. One could be Sinensis/ Assamica tea trees that have purple leaves due to genetic defects, the other being non-Sinensis varietals.  I’ve seen the occasional Assamica tree with some purple leaves. I’ve never tried a tea made exclusively from those trees and I think it would be hard to get enough raw material to make much tea at all due to the scarcity of those trees. 

Vietnam has many varietals of those non-Sinensis tea trees growing at 1800-2500m+ in elevation. Many of these trees have purple/ red/ orange/ yellow-green leaves with different leaf shapes compared to the typical Assamica. All of those varietals could be lumped into the “purple tea” category. I really enjoy teas made from these types of trees as they are easy drinking (gentle, fragrant, sweet, low bitterness/ astringency) when produced as any style of tea. Many have a thick mouthfeel, lasting huigan and strong body effects for me.

An Assamica based oolong I’ve tried from Viet Sun was quite pleasant.  Can you add background about that tea type, if it’s prepared in a similar way as a Chinese or Taiwanese type, and how the Assamica plant type input varies?

Sure, that was made in Hoàng Su Phì, Hà Giang province. That area is high on fragrance and sweetness and lower on bitterness/ astringency. The processing combines elements of raw puerh, oolong and black tea processing. It undergoes a long withering, shaking, medium-oxidation, wok kill-green, rolling, sun-drying and roasting. It is a loose leaf style so would be comparable to a strip-style oolong but the raw material input makes it look more like a loose-leaf raw puerh. The tea maker who makes our tea recommends aging it for at least a year. He mentions that the aging period really helps settle it down and become more balanced. Seems like it can be difficult to make that raw material work as an oolong. 

A Western-facing outlet like Hatvala has built up better Vietnamese tea awareness over a number of years.  Do you feel that Viet Sun customers are generally coming from that prior exposure, or is it more that people learn of better Vietnamese tea more than continue earlier demand for it?

We have a handful of customers who have tried Hatvala teas, enjoyed them and wanted to explore other options from Vietnam. Many of our customers have never heard about (or at least anything good about) Vietnamese tea but have found out about us through word of mouth or social media/ chat forums. It seems like a good percentage of our customers are Yunnan tea enthusiasts and with our catalog being “puerh” heavy,  it makes sense that they might be more willing to try teas from vendors like us. 

Are you being contacted by Western (US or European) shops about them carrying Vietnamese teas, or are your customers only tea enthusiasts making direct purchases?

Yes, we wholesale to a handful of businesses in the US, Canada and Europe as well as International retail. 

Thoughts on this discussion

Really the point here was to share Steve's input, to allow readers to access some of the types of ideas I sometimes run across in talking to vendors or producers.  I wanted to add just a little on how I took these ideas though.

The last two questions about development of tea awareness and demand in Vietnam related to my curiosity about trends tending to come and go in tea circles, to versions from Nepal or Georgia becoming popular, and known for quality and good character, for example.  To me Vietnam is sort of a different case because plenty of range of tea has been produced there for a long time, and quality levels have certainly been mixed, but they didn't just start producing good versions recently.  Maybe some are more consistent and better recently, but I've tried great Vietnamese tea versions for years, and it was always odd that the word didn't get out faster.  

For living in Thailand I probably shouldn't add that Vietnamese teas at the higher end have been more diverse and just better than from Thailand for years, but at least the best Thai versions are now catching up and holding their own.  There were rare exceptions before, and sheng has previously been inconsistent from both countries.

I was wondering to what extent that awareness and demand shift is happening now, and Steve covered a few points that relate to that.  Hopefully it ramps up fast enough for Steve's business to do well, for him to keep offering interesting and pleasant teas, but maybe not fast enough to outpace production, so pricing stays as favorable as it currently is.

Sort of related, the two versions I bought recently I love more and more as I keep drinking them (a black tea and sheng).  Sometimes you can try something exceptional and it's the novelty that carries the experience, something like quality level markers showing through, and other times you can relate to more basic teas even better, because they match what you like, and the limitations mean little in relation to the positive aspects or overall impression.  The best case is when good teas click for you, not necessarily those matching a standard type the best, or showing off quality through the most rare or refined aspects, but just good, pleasant versions.  Those you can enjoy over and over.  

Dian Hong often tends to be like that for me, and to me that black tea seems related to that character range.  Slightly atypical versions of sheng, related to Yunnan character range, can relate to different terroir input, or to processing variations.  In some cases the balance seems off, and in others novel flavors and extra complexity really comes together.  For me the Sơn La version balance really worked.

The rest of what Steve said covers ideas that are familiar; we have discussed similar things, or they've come up talking to other friends in Vietnam.  His input expressed a lot of range clearly and concisely, extending what I've heard before.  The parts about concerns related to sustainability, sourness in atypical plant type versions, on purple teas, and on typical regional aspect character were particularly interesting to me.  It was great that Steve was open to discussing other source options as much as he did, to help place where the whole market stands; vendors usually aren't like that.

Many thanks to Steve for sharing these ideas!

this sheng brewed color matches part of the story told here

Vietnamese oolong and fishhook style green tea

 

I'm trying out a couple more samples from Viet Sun, sent along with ordering a really nice sheng and black tea not long ago.  They sent a second "forest origin" type of green tea, which would make a lot more sense to compare with the fishhook / standard Thai Nguyen version range, but this sounds good to me, comparing oolong and green tea experience.  

In general it's better to comparison taste as similar teas as you can, not mixing styles or character, because you'll notice more fine differences instead of just that you are trying two types at once.  I've been through it lots of times though; it gets easier to sort out with exposure.

I'll brew these using water not so far off boiling, maybe 90 C.  I've measured output temperature from a filtration system that also heats water at our house before, but I don't remember that outcome.  It's too hot for Western brewing approach optimum for green tea, per most people's opinion, but it's normal in Vietnam to use hot water to brew green tea, and to be ok with the stronger flavor profile and additional astringency that results.  I can cool a round and check the difference [or switch to using cooler water across all the rounds, as it turned out, because that tea is really intense].

Related to the Viet Sun black tea and sheng I've been drinking, from Lao Cai and Song La, respectively, I like them more and more as I keep drinking them.  It's possible for a novel, complex, and refined good tea version to really stand out when you first try it and then for you to not feel as much connection over time, as you keep drinking it.  Sometimes even more basic versions can match what you really like, and can seem better to drink more of.  Those teas are pretty good initially, and they also seem well-suited for drinking regularly, which of course relates to my own preference, not some aspects or form of balance that one wouldn't tire of.

The oolong I have no clear expectations of; that makes it more interesting.  If the fishhook style green is a good version of a style I've drank a number of examples of that should be good.  Those tend to be floral and also vegetal, but not necessarily grassy, intense in character with heavy flavors, and a pronounced mineral base.  It's that "heavy flavors" part that makes them seem distinct from other green tea range, which I typically like.

Per usual I'll add more of Viet Sun's description after I try these and make tasting notes.  There was no listing for the "Thai Nguyen Fish Hook Green, Autumn 23;" it's either not there yet or already sold out, or maybe never will be listed.

Sunset Oolong, Autumn 22 (edited slightly; the listing is long.  It sells for $35 for 100 grams).

A strip style oolong produced from old/ ancient Shan Assamica varietal trees growing in the Hoàng Su Phì area of Hà Giang in Autumn of 2022.

This is a unique tea. Assamica oolongs are typically much harsher than their Sinensis counterparts so processing and storage play a major role in the production of this tea. If you've tried the 2020 version of this tea you'll surely notice how different the 2022 version looks and tastes. 

The producer decided to go with a lighter oxidation and drying temperature in order to preserve more of the natural essence of this tea. They also mentioned that they think that this lighter overall processing method requires less of a storage period before the tea starts to come into its prime. 

The flavor is complex. I pick up notes of savory warming spices with a peppery floral fragrance and a bit of green freshness. There are notes of medium oxidized oolong, Oriental Beauty and Dian Hong. Thick sweetness with a medium-thick body depending on how strong you brew it. It has this softening effect that spreads and finishes with a bit of a tannic bite.

I like brewing it at 90-100 degrees for shorter and then longer steeps.

Season: Autumn 2022

Picking Standard: 1 bud, 2-3 leaves

Region: Hoàng Su Phì, Hà Giang

Elevation: 1200m

All of that aspect description works; I won't comment on it further later on here.  I did already compare this to Oriental Beauty in notes.  

Variety Assamica oolongs tend to just be bad, not only a little more harsh, but that's probably related to many examples being experimental, and producers needing time to adjust processing inputs to get it to work.  I might've tried two that were good, both from Vietnam, and more decent Indian versions that seemed nothing like oolong, which is something else.  Of course until I had tried those I considered whether the plant type range might just not be suitable for that processing approach, if typical leaf compounds didn't match up, but it's not that, it's about not getting them right.

Review:

Sunset Oolong:  that's so nice!  It's a little too light still, normal for how I usually prepare a first round, but there's a really pleasant sweetness and flavor profile.  There's a lot going on; it might taste a bit like fruit cake, that mix of warm, rich flavors, including a bit of spice, along with brighter and complex mixed dried fruit.  I'll have more luck with a flavor list next round though.

Thai Nguyen Fish Hook Green:  the umami level is insane in this.  I can compensate for brewing two kinds of tea by flash brewing this version from here on out.  It might work to add a touch of cold water to this too, to try brewing it at a more conventional 70 - 75 C range early on (roughly; I don't weigh or measure anything), before cooking it for too many rounds.  Vegetal range is heavy, and intense, not so far off kale.  That must sound rougher than this comes across, and adjusting outcome by brewing it using cooler water and faster infusion times would change a lot, or backing off proportion.  I don't want that to sound like I'm describing brewing around flaws though; this is more or less how it should be.

If anything this is a much better quality version than I'm accustomed to.  You can see that in the finer leaf form, which helps with cranking up intensity, and it's clear in the flavor outcome too.  It's vegetal though; it wouldn't be for everyone.  Kale is joined by spinach and celery; it's really vegetal.  The strong mineral base is nice, and sweetness is good, helping the rest balance.  Probably by altering brewing approach you could get more floral range out of it, and just brewing intensity lighter would shift to an experience of lighter flavor range.  But it is what it is too; someone not into vegetal green teas shouldn't be drinking this.  

In other versions that mineral range can dominate more, not as a base for other flavors, but as a primary input, which wouldn't necessarily be ideal for people looking for more of a black tea or oolong oriented experience, but it balances differently.  It lingers so long in aftertaste for this version that I'll need to drink a good bit of water between rounds to get it to clear.  I've tried white teas that taste like less than the plain water I drank to clear that aftertaste; a nice sweet flavor aftertaste keeps going, and doesn't clear out fast. 

It's my understanding that people in Vietnam value that high intensity and somewhat harsh feel in green tea experience, that over time they come to like being blasted by it.  As a sheng drinker I get it; it's never enough until it's a little too much.

Sunset oolong, 2:  it's interesting how the first thing you notice drinking this is a "man that's good!" reaction.  The sum is greater than the parts; none of the aspects add up to account for how pleasant it comes across.  I think feel might be part of that, that there's a richness to it, a way that it coats your whole mouth, that adds depth far beyond the flavor.  It's sweet and rich in flavor too, but not necessarily that complex or intense.  In terms of a list of all the flavors probably adding together it's probably very complex, but those are all subtle enough that it seems simple when you taste it.  Let's get to that list.

Sweetness includes a warmth like a honey range, or maybe that's light caramel instead.  There is fruit but it's so non-distinct there's no way to list out what it probably includes; maybe some dried fruit range, could be something like cooked pear (included here as a guess to point towards a range, more than a description).  Warmth seems to also include a spice tone, and a rich and deep underlying feel is more similar to sassafras (like one part of root beer), or if that's not familiar leaning a little towards yam.

I bet if I kept drinking this tea I'd change my mind about that whole list, and describe it in completely different terms.  That part is interesting, how an overall pleasant effect is clear but what is going into creating that is not.

Thai Nguyen fishhook green:  I brewed this quite light, mixing in cold water and brewing it fast.  I didn't want to err on the side of saying I should've went further with that adjustment.  Character is completely different, of course.  Floral range does ramp up; it's probably more dominant than the vegetal range.  Or maybe this is really a mix of light and subtle floral tones and completely different vegetal range, like sugar-snap peas (mostly that flavor in particular; not just like that).  Sweetness dominates the basic taste effect, the context, where mineral and heavier range had before.  There is still some umami in this, plenty of it, but nothing like the earlier level, or the earlier effect from that.  Not so many teas are capable of shifting character this much related to brewing approach differences.

So in the end it's sweet, light, bright, including plenty of floral tones, and light and sweet sugar snap pea vegetable.  Mineral base still grounds it but in nothing like the earlier form or intensity.  If this green tea version hadn't been off the scale in intensity using a hot water and quick brewing approach would've been more practical and appropriate.  These really fine leaves seem to extract lots and lots of flavor very quickly, with limited need for exposure to heat to push that along.  I'll try it brewed slightly hotter and longer next round and see what it's like more in the middle, but not back at that "just off boiling point" temperature level, still a bit cooler.

Sunset oolong 3:  the one sweet and rich range seems to be what is making this so appealing, somewhere along the lines of caramel or molasses.  You could push this tea much harder; maybe next time I'll let it brew for over 20 seconds to see what that changes.  Then it's odd how the intensity of the other requires being careful about that, limiting it to a range that's still approachable, without someone acclimating to super strong tea instead, and just going for it.  

The fruit seems to include an apricot note; it could be that a catchy form of fruit is another part of what makes this so nice.  It's quite subtle at the same time, which is interesting, how an overall impression is different than how the individual aspects seem.

Thai Nguyen Fishhook green:  that balance is ok, embracing it being more intense, including heavier flavors, and strong underlying mineral tone, but still also including the light, sweet, and fresh range.  To be clear I really don't like grassy green teas, and green tea is my least favorite broad category (besides something like flavored teas; those don't count in the same way, and some can be ok).  

I like this more than I would expect to based on the flavor range, or that would be true if I hadn't experienced that with fishhook style green teas a few times in the past.  The mineral base and savory range, the umami, give it an interesting balance and overall effect.  Some Japanese green teas work out like that, and an aspect range I typically don't like so much really works.  For them that seems to tie directly to quality too, so that if I'm thinking of heavy umami and seaweed flavor teas I don't like that's more about cheaper and rougher versions where it doesn't all tie together as well.

Oolong 4:  I don't think I have the patience today for 6 or 7 rounds of tasting, for describing how these keep evolving.  It's mid-afternoon and I've not had lunch yet, which is going to be a single meal covering lunch and dinner for running so late.  This will do.

It's hard to place this in relation to other oolong styles, to say what it reminds me of.  It's quite oxidized, so maybe along the lines of a "red oolong," which I guess relates to Dong Ding as much as any other more established origin range or style.  It's just its own thing though.  Pretty much always when you try a one-off style and material input version positive aspects can come up but overall balance is missing something, and it doesn't connect and work perfectly, feel might not be ok, aspect range might not integrate, or it can seem unrefined, etc.  But this is good.  This really should include an extra flaw or two that it doesn't, or at least some aspect gap or imbalance.  They did well.

More aspects and description would come up in a more detailed single version review that pushed the tea harder, bumping infusion time, using full boiling point water, dialing in an optimum timing.  I bet with more of that comparison with Oriental Beauty style would make more sense, the way honey sweetness, dried fruit, and spice combine in those.  I think that's not occurring to me here as much because it's like that but the comparable range isn't directly one for one.  The spice tone and fruit are similar but different.  This might be closest to an Oriental Beauty version where they've not pushed the oxidation level all the way to the edge of typical black tea range, or into it, as tends to come up.

Fishhook green:  the balance is nice in this, the way heavy umami stands out, with good sweetness mineral base not far beyond that.  It's still more vegetal than floral, but using slightly cooler water and a lighter infusion strength pulls that way back from the heavy kale, spinach, and celery range.  Anyone entirely opposed to drinking vegetal green tea would still hate this, but it's well balanced.  This version is much closer to typical Japanese green tea range than any fishhook style green tea I've tried before.  For me that being good or bad depends on the final aspect balance, with quality level tied to that, and to me this works well.

To be clear on that context I wouldn't buy a tea like this, or any Japanese green teas; I love sheng pu'er most, then a limited range of black teas, then oolongs, which come in a broad range, then maybe interesting white tea versions after that.  Shu pu'er can be ok, and hei cha can be interesting, but maybe it makes sense to just leave them off the list.  I can appreciate what this green tea is, and how good it is, but that range just isn't a close match to what I like most in tea experience, or next most, and so on.  This oolong version I could probably drink 500 grams of and probably not get tired of it, but buying their Son La sheng and Lao Cai black tea instead was a better choice for me; those are closer matches to what I like most.

For someone exploring novel and interesting tea range, earlier in a sorting out process, this green tea could take on a different meaning.  You could cover related range trying Japanese green teas, but they wouldn't be quite as novel, for fitting into a paradigm slightly better.  That's only true in general; at higher quality levels things tend to shift a bit, and range of novelty and higher potential opens up, but you'd need to be open to a higher level of spending to experience that in Japanese teas.

It's generally bad form to mention alternative sources in a review post but let's go there.  I think Trident Cafe and Booksellers would be a great source for way above average green teas at very fair prices.  They list some really interesting Japanese green teas, and versions from other places, all starting at $10 per ounce (28 grams).  That's actually a pretty good price for teas in that high demand at that quality level.  I was going to compare that to this tea's listing on the Viet Sun site, but it's not there (sold out for now?).  Anyway, the other forest green tea listed, the only green tea, they sell for $7 for 25 grams, or $22 for 100 (or $51 for 250; you get a great deal at volume, but only if you know you like the tea, since having a lot that you don't like isn't helpful).  Trident's sales isn't set up like that; you keep paying $10 for 28 more grams, which I think is still fair, but it's up to $40 for 112 grams.  It probably should be more, for what they sell.

The general point here, which might already be clear, is that if you can find very interesting and higher quality tea versions from lower demand areas sometimes you can get amazing values for that tea.  Not always; some boutique Indian outlets sell the best of the best versions from there for full Western boutique outlet market rates, up around the 40 cents a gram level, which I guess still makes sense.  There's very little of that highest end Indian tea demanded or made, so however that balances out is what it is.

This oolong is something else, seemingly a one-off.  Teas like that cost whatever they happen to be sold for, and there's no market rate to go by.  $35 for 100 grams is fair in relation to what other remotely comparable quality and aspect range teas would sell for, and probably Oriental Beauty versions roughly as good and somewhat similar in style would tend to cost even more, but nothing else would seem exactly like it.

Vietnamese teas! Green and Black!

I just went to Vietnam (Ha Noi and surrounding, the North) and of course tried some teas.  I liked Vietnam and the teas so much I'll have to ramble and show pictures a bit more than usual.

A stunning country (nice even if one doesn't like tea).

Green teas:  the typical experience

What to say about the green teas?  My first reaction was amazement at how fresh the different teas taste.  The one I had today starts off with a really fresh vegetal kale-like taste, which softens a bit to different flavors as you keep brewing it.  The predominant flavor might be the mineral nature, along with the vegetal character that's never exactly grassy, different vegetable notes with a wood undertone.

One odd tendency of the teas I've tried is they just keep brewing consistently good tea, hanging in there infusion after infusion like decent Chinese or Taiwanese lighter oolongs.

beautiful bluish green tea, tastes like it looks:  intense

Bitterness can be an issue with any green teas, but the twist with Vietnamese teas is some people love that flavor component (astringency, however you put it), at least per one seemingly informed person I talked to about that.  At least one type is even sold as "bitter tea;" not so much of a selling point to me.




The first time I ordered a tea in a restaurant they brought it steeping in boiling water, which of course will bring out the bitterness in any green tea.


The first taste was really nice anyway, fresh and light, but it occurred to me that continuing to steep green tea for a long time in boiling water wasn't going to end well.  I asked for extra glasses to halt the brewing process but it was too late (pictured here); that wonderful fresh character turned extra-bitter.

Of course I was still intrigued, ready to keep on tasting teas.  This was my second visit to Vietnam but since my tea obsession really ramped up after my last visit (when I was happy to check out tea and herb blends from there that were new to me).  This time I was going much deeper for sure.




 Later the same sort of thing happened at a tea shop, of all places; they were brewing green tea at boiling temperature, and not taking the leaves out of the tea, they let is keep on brewing.  They were doing it on purpose!


Actually I was still in denial about that until a forum discussion after the trip absolutely confirmed it.  Aside from that being odd, preferring bitterness, it seemed a shame to drown out the range of other amazing flavors these teas were capable of.

At a shop near our hotel they sold a number of different teas (and coffees) from larger bins, offering the tea by sampling smells.

Only one was a pure green tea (Thai Nguyen Tea--a province name reference), and one other black, and all those others tea flavored or blended with different flowers, and one rice tea.

It would've been sensible to buy them all given that pricing and those smells (that "green tea" bin says 60,000 dong for 100 grams; about $3--almost criminal to not buy the tea).  Tea purist that I am, and given my wife was about to go crazy over all the tea I would buy anyway, I just bought the black and green.  If I'd tasted that black tea instead of just smelling it 100 grams wouldn't have been nearly enough.

Vietnamese black tea

This tea is an orthodox tea, for sure.  You really can't judge quality on smell but at a guess the tea would have warm cinnamon notes and decent malty character.

The first time I tried it (back at home in Bangkok, later) I was surprised at how good it was, a soft, rich tea, with good body, including those taste elements and maybe a hint of citrus and woody undertone.  

This was still a mid-range tea, without quite the same subtlety, remarkable "clean" flavors, balance, and complexity I've experienced in some nicer Chinese black teas, but definitely a better tea than most people know exists.  Better than any black Vietnamese tea I expected to find, especially at rock-bottom prices ($4 for 100 grams; I'm going back for sure, even if the airfare does add few hundred).  Oddly it was much softer than a lot of black teas, nice for me.

I kept on seeing more teas, and buying them here and there, almost all green.  I saw a couple oolongs along the way but kept thinking I'd make it to a shop where I could taste them, and see a selection, and dodge buying one so-so oolong and then wondering if it was regional character or just what I bought.  Of course if I'd brewed the black tea in the hotel room I'd have bought one at random and hoped for the same luck.

In conclusion

This isn't really where I'll leave off because I have a few more teas to try.  One is an ancient tree high mountain green tea (might be nice), another bought from a local hill-tribe village, along with some dried apple chips and local almonds (which are good).


The herb and flower teas are a different story I won't be telling, but that one rice tea showed a lot of promise (the smell did), and one lotus tea I tried there was quite nice.  So maybe some explaining is in order, since I skipped so much:  it wasn't really a tea theme vacation.

trying bia hoi, fresh beer (me, not him)

We visited Hanoi, Halong Bay, Sapa (mountains--cold up there), and Tamkok (hills, I guess) all in a week, and wasted precious tea shopping time snapping up great deals on winter gear and kids' shoes (so mundane; every country has that!).  Vietnamese food was an aside worth wasting time on; pho is only the beginning (Asian chicken noodle soup).


It seems likely I never did stumble across the best of what Vietnamese tea has to offer, perhaps not even trying one from the main growing region--Tan Cuong--in that Thai Nguyen province  (review of one such here).  I'll be back.