Connor Murphy: death of an eccentric looksmaxer

 

Connor Murphy, a controversial Youtuber and fitness guru influencer, died recently, under unfavorable circumstances.  Any circumstances are unfavorable, if the end result is someone no longer being around, but he experienced some sort of manic episode, was pursued by the police, swam into a deep pond beside his own home, and drowned.

He had been at different stages of mania and instability in videos for a number of years; this won't focus much on that.  I've recently watched a video that cites a lot of Tony Huge, his friend, discussing Conor's instability and later mental experiences, only some of which are covered here.

The part that is most interesting to me is his philosophy of conventional perspective.  Some of what he was saying actually works.  That can be overstated or over-interpreted; he was questioning a lot of aspects of ordinary self-perception and placement in society, so of course his starting points of doing the questioning worked.  Then the conclusions and final positions not so much.  Often his points didn't extend that far, to any developed conclusion.

Before getting into that I'll cover a bit on the more controversial aspects of his final communications, including that he might have killed Leo of Leo and Longevity.  I mention that because he kept mentioning it; many videos include reference to him possibly killing Leo.  I'm guessing that he was involved.  Even though he was mentally unstable it's not the kind of thing one would develop and then keep returning to related to drumming up online views, to position yourself as a likely murderer as part of an online character persona.

Another part relates to why he was unstable, the causes, and the forms it took.  I won't fully develop that as a history, or go into most aspects of it, but it's a big part of who he had came to be.  He did a lot of different drugs.

This source I'll work with is a long form, relatively unedited video (or it seemingly is a lot of what he communicated in several video interview sessions, but of course there is no way to evaluate what was edited out).  Before getting into the "did he kill Leo" part another topic works well to place where he was.

Injecting gold

In a recent video Tony Huge, separate from the other already mentioned, his friend that also hosted Leo, where Leo had been killed, claimed that Connor had been injecting himself with a lot of colloidal gold, or gold dust, and that his may well have played a role in his mental issues over the past month or so.  Both Tony and Connor claim that he experienced noteworthy, clearly linked benefits from injecting himself with gold (or in this video he only claims to have consumed it, but that part isn't clear), but there's no way to evaluate that.

Let's start with what he claimed himself in this interview, posted by Your Mate Tom, under the title Connor Murphy’s Final In Depth Interview | In His Own Words:

Well, in the past, I made colloidal gold. You have you ever heard of colloidal gold? Colloidal gold? No, no, no.  Right. So, man, there's just this really intriguing study where they give patients like colloidal gold and their IQ increased by like 30%. Or something's precedent like that. It just hasn't really been studied enough, but I want to do an experiment. I'm a biohacker. I used to ingest I used to make my own colloidal gold and then ingest it and I felt some benefits, but I didn't feel as as much benefits as I thought. And trough the process, I do it through electrolysis. 

I can show you the setup because I almost have the the setup ready again. We're getting the last part of the setup here, but uh it's like a copper, okay, a copper wire and then some sort of gold and send an electrical charge and it it makes this red colloidal gold uh in the water. And I was also afraid of like the potential of copper toxicity if the copper was leeching into the water. Turns out you don't even really need the copper in the water. I don't think you can actually leave the copper out the water... 

The idea in the Tony Huge video was that Conor was converting jewelry directly into gold to be injected, or perhaps consumed, so who knows what alloys were present in that gold.  It didn't sound like Conor was having it tested, from that, so it could include lead, or any number of other metals, or contaminants.  He may not have been tracking an intake dosage closely, which is all the more problematic, if you don't know what you are consuming.  

Here is Google's AI input on that:

Eating gold is a long-standing culinary tradition used primarily to garnish high-end desserts, cocktails, and sushi. While it is non-toxic, there are a few important details to know about consuming it:

Purity is Key: You should only ever ingest high-carat gold (23-24k). Less pure forms of gold are mixed with other metals, like copper or nickel, which can be toxic or cause adverse reactions.

Biological Inertness: Because pure gold does not oxidize, corrode, or react with stomach acids, it poses zero health risks in moderation.

Potential Hazards: You should never attempt to eat raw jewelry or loose gold flakes not specifically designated for consumption, as they can contain impurities or cause gastrointestinal issues.

But he was talking about colloidal gold, probably even related to injecting it.  Their take on that:

While colloidal gold is sometimes promoted for alleged wellness, cognitive, and anti-inflammatory benefits, there is limited scientific evidence to support these claims. The safety of these nanomaterials largely depends on the particle size and surface chemistry.

When ingested, colloidal gold is slowly absorbed by the intestines and tends to accumulate in the kidneys and other organs. Research indicates that, depending on the dosage, gold nanoparticles can induce long-term changes in cellular gene expression and morphology. Furthermore, they have not undergone standardized safety evaluations for daily dietary intake by major regulatory authorities...

So who knows.  Let's jump ahead to his involvement with Leo's death, and get back to the main theme, philosophical perspective.

Death of Leo (of Leo and Longevity)

8:258 minutes, 25 seconds  ...that's not fair because he [Leo] was a a much deeper character. [than just covering the penis enlargement topic].  

[interviewer] Did you kill him?

[Connor] Uh potentially. I guess that's what people will will try and decide when the when the movie gets dropped. I mean, yeah, you'll see. I I I don't know.

Maybe I was jealous of Leo. Maybe he had a bigger [ __ ] than me. Like, maybe I wanted to be the the foremost expert in penis enlargement. Maybe I was jealous of his relationship with with Tony.  Maybe I wanted to be Tony's best friend.  Maybe I wanted Leo's room. Maybe I wanted to live in the house. I mean, yeah, you could potentially I have some some motives for doing so, but there's no hard evidence. You'll never find my like DNA on the spot or anything like that...

In a somewhat recent video, that is very interesting, Connor makes up a crazy and extreme looksmaxing character, A Day in the Looksmaxxing Life of Mandibleus Zygomidus.  In that he claims that the only time that he "fatally mogged" someone, or killed them, he nearly had his nose broken.  In another recent video, when asked about Leo, he said that for whatever he did to him, which he can't described, he used a gold club, implying that this was the weapon used to kill him.  In several other videos he or his girlfriend indirectly referenced Connor killing Leo.  

It's all so strange.  Only a very unbalanced individual would kill someone and then keep mentioning it, or for that matter not kill someone and then keep implying it.

Let's move on to a more primary context, looksmaxing, before getting into the interesting perspective insights.

What is Looksmaxxing?

[13:50 minutes, 50 seconds]   Well, it's really simple. I mean, it's just well, it's the name is self-explanatory. It's maxing out your looks. Although, see, it should be called looks optimizing. What does maxing out your looks mean? I mean, that kind of has the connotation like people are trying to have an extreme look, which maybe is the case. Maybe sometimes people overdo it, but you're essentially trying to optimize your looks simply because they recognize that looks provide you an advantage in life. And it's something that people have known throughout all of time. I mean, people have been trying to improve their looks like since the beginning of humanity, right? 

But all of a sudden, yeah, it just I guess people are being explicit about it. And it's funny because it's really pissing people off because of course, like if people aren't trying to optimize their looks, then it makes sense for them to criticize people who are because if other people improve their looks, then they're at a disadvantage by comparison... 

It's an interesting point, that everyone who is critical of looksmaxing is really trying to stop others from optimizing their looks, because it makes them look worse by comparison.  So people could, or should, be critical of others getting plastic surgery, and so on.  

He claims that he has had several cosmetic surgery procedures--which is surely accurate--including a hair transplant, transplantation to his eyebrows, and work around his eyes.  It would seem a real stretch for me to feel threatened by some Youtuber looking more attractive than nature had dictated, but then he probably is describing extreme perspectives, including by others involved with commentary, and not just a conventional take.

This is social media based commentary, right?  I might address more conventional changes like chewing gum to expand jaw muscles, whether I see that as positive, or absurd, or whatever else.

He probably used filler injections to cause that appearance, although it could also just be a video filter effect.  From the way his jaw appears in that capture it's probably a filter, or edit; the bone structure of his frontal jaw doesn't look natural, or possible.

In framing that video, and many of his ideas, as an absurd satire of what others propose it all kind of works.  He claims that there is a homosexually oriented aspect to looksmaxing, that it's not always positioned as mainly relating to increasing attractiveness to the opposite sex, for example.  

But all of that isn't a main concern here, it's just interesting that he took it all in those directions.  It doesn't intuitively work, to critique looksmaxing as generally misguided, in relation to setting unclear or conflicting goals, or being absurd in relation to steps taken, or goals that are pursued, and then to also actually take those steps yourself.  

If the end goal is content promotion, and not the actual effects, that makes more sense, but then doing something as risky and unconventional as consuming homemade colloidal gold, derived from jewelry, or injecting that, again conflicts with that goal.  Critiquing a popular theme for views works, but extending it into your own less safe, practical, and reasonable range doesn't.

Extending this to self-image:  Looksmaxxing or Body Dysmorphia

His own interview content introduces this from one perspective:

And what's the line between looks maxing, right? Improving your your aesthetic and body dysmorphia.  Oh, yeah. Well, that's the thing.  There's not a a fine line. It's not black and white, right? It's it's a spectrum. I think there's I mean, there's a healthy level of discontentment in with life in general, right? If you're just complacent, you're never going to improve. A lot of people think that self-improvement and self-love are mutually exclusive. This is how you get like the fat acceptance movement. They think, "Oh, in order to love yourself, you have to be completely content with precisely who you are." But I think this is like a fundamental misconception of what the self even is.

They think the self is like a noun, but in reality, it's more like a verb. We're an everchanging entity, and we're constantly evolving. We're constantly changing. And so you might as well evolve and change in a positive way and fall in love with the process. And so just because you're improving yourself doesn't mean you don't love yourself. In fact, a lot of people, it's it's ironic because if you're overly attached with who you are and your identity, you're less likely to transform. 

So a lot of these people who won't transform, who won't improve their looks, it's actually because they're more attached to their looks. They think like their look is a fundamental part of themselves. And if they change it, somehow they're becoming a new person that is unfamiliar to them and they don't recognize. And so, no, I think there's a very healthy level of of discontentment, but it's it's not mutually exclusive to loving yourself.  You can do both.

This is actually pretty insightful, and grounded.  It's a shame that all of the parts of what he is saying, and his own internal life experience, weren't all as balanced and positive.

Another point highlights how on a superficial and simplified level what he is claiming works, but it doesn't represent a deep, healthy, or developed worldview:

[interviewer]:  How would you rank in terms of importantness to pick up girls or to attract women? Is it money, uh, confidence, aesthetics? 

[Connor]:  It It's really tough to say because it depends on the girls values as well.

Like some girls value money more, some value status more, some value looks more. It depends on what relationship they're looking for. Generally, a short-term relationship, looks are going to matter more. But a longer term relationship, it's going to be more like money and and status. And it's actually not money. It's actually your ability to generate money. like money is just kind of a proxy for your ability to generate money, right?

You know, like you think it's like your your skills itself is more important than it's a signal for your skills because think about it, man. You could be in a scenario where all of a sudden your money disappears like someone like robs you or like there's like the apocalypse, you're stranded on a deserted island or something happens and you lose your wealth. Like a girl wants to feel safe and she wants to think that even if you lose your wealth, you have the ability to generate wealth. So way less people are going to be some people still will but way fewer women are going to be attracted to some rich kid who just inherited a fortune rather than someone who is like a self-made millionaire.

Lots of those online influencer / guru types tend to present information like this, in a superficial and immature way.  Of course charisma and confidence are important in a relationship, and are attractive.  But this essentially reduces all women down to pursuing either physical attractiveness or financial gain.  He would mention there's more to it in other comments, but it comes across that his take really is that those two factors dominate what women seek, and how relationships work out.  

In all of this interview he never really touches on the theme of an actual romantic relationship, of a short or long term duration, and never uses the term "girlfriend."

Am I wrong to critique that (both parts, that he oversimplifies interactions between people who are dating, and that he leaves out that people are seeking relationships at all)?  Per my experience in more sustained relationships men and women seek out commonality of experience and perspective in temporary or more permanent relationship partners.  Social level ends up mattering, and lots of personal interests, and life direction.  To some extent maybe relationship partners do tend to match on an attractiveness range, or maybe status and wealth trade in to replace that, on the guy's side, but to simplify relationships down to those two factors is a bit absurd.

In knowing of--to a very limited extent--Conor's personal history this makes sense.  He himself claims to have slept with a lot of women outside of any relationship connection related to his physical appearance, in particular his developed muscular fitness.  Maybe he has experienced one or more serious relationships, or maybe he hasn't.  Tony Huge mentioned Connor experiencing a problematic breakup in one video; maybe a main experience with that theme was negative.

Him living in Thailand and dating a Thai seem to support this theme, that he hasn't experienced mature relationships in the past, and isn't really even pursuing that.  There's no mention of his girlfriend, at the time of his death, in that interview.  It's my guess that she was the same woman he was accused of assaulting some time ago, in other online video content and news, but I'm not following his story close enough to be confident in that.

I live in Thailand just now, and over most of the last 19 years, but of course I'm not going to characterize typical relationships between Thai women and foreigners.  People often do online, but it becomes nonsensical, painting such broad themes with the same brush in that way.  I've interacted with essentially no women who were or had been working as prostitutes; that kind of thing ends up getting overstated, by a lot.  I don't go to go-go bars, and people living ordinary lives in Thailand have nothing to do with all of that, in general.

Conclusions

There's a lot more covered in that video interview, and again the main interesting aspect to me is how parts of it are grounded, or at times even insightful.  For example, Conor talks about the balance between being self-confident, which is positive and useful, and lacking any self-doubt, which is potentially a problematic sign of mania, or at least of an unbalanced self-image.  He says that self-doubt can help you examine your own actions and perspective, that it's useful, taken in the right ways, and in the right amounts.

Then he keeps saying things that make sense, that are worth reflecting on, and it couples with or digresses into nonsense, over and over.  He had some issues.  Here's another example from that interview:

Chapter 19: False compassion vs REAL empathy

[45:1345 minutes, 13 seconds] You have compassion for other people's suffering, right? You understand and you relate to and you want to mitigate other people's suffering and it's not selective. So when people have false compassion, it's a signal that they're not actually compassionate.

They're just doing it to score uh social points, right? They're trying to place themselves on some sort of moral pedestal. They're just virtue signaling, right? So anytime you see someone compassionate towards one group but hate on another group, they're not authentically compassionate. They're just doing it to score moral social points.

[interviewer]:  Yeah. Yeah. Like whatever whatever's trending in the mainstream right now.

Exactly. And that's just what Kanye was trying to show. It's like, dude, yeah. What the [ __ ] I love everyone. I love Hitler, right? Like I But no, see, you won't say that. You won't say you love everyone because you have false compassion. Like dude, I mean, man, I have Hitler probably suffered a [ __ ] lie. Who who how do you become someone so violent and so evil? Like you have to have a lot of [ __ ] emotional baggage and like psychological turmoil. Like no, I have compassion for him. Like we should have help. Someone should have helped him before he came so evil, right? 

I mean there are so many things in reality that are outside of our control. We were just born into reality this blank slate and then programmed by our environment. a lot of things. I mean, you can't really say that anything is entirely someone's fault because there are so many different aspects of the universe that are impacting them, right? 

Compassion for Hitler; nothing is anyone's fault; this definitely drifted off a bit.  But the early part seems to work, that someone expressing support and concern for a limited group is positive, but when that couples with hate for another group something negative is being included there, some sort of inconsistency.

I'm not sure how much we can directly learn from what Conor had been expressing.  It's all interesting to consider, if also experiencing some raving nonsense isn't a problem.  He probably would have did well to question a lot of things, a lot of conventional perspective, without so much drug use, and without injecting himself with or consuming a lot of gold and other mixed metals.  

Which makes it a strange cautionary tale.  Some people are doing massive amounts of drugs, to help them gain self-awareness, as discussed in this Reddit "Psychonaut" group, but in general that's a fairly extreme approach, that doesn't map back to what most ordinary people experience.

An entire tangent I've not mentioned here is about Connor supposedly experiencing super-powers (again mentioned in this video about Tony Huge:  Connor Murphy's Friend Exposes Experiment That Killed Him).  That claims that the gold experiments essentially caused his mental problems (the worsening of those), in effect killing him.  Maybe.  Tony talks about potential psychic "superpowers" in there but doesn't get around to mentioning any examples that make any sense, about heightened awareness and such.  

In an odd interview section with Connor, and Tony, he is describing how AI became omniscient, and how a benign cabal of wealthy people controlling everything planned to use Connor to transmit total self-awareness to everyone, turning this reality into a heaven realm, which has been partly enacted related to cellular alterations caused by vaccines.  It's all pretty crazy.  One wild part is that Tony was on board with a lot of that, but couldn't buy into the wealthy group of people who control everything being benign, and looking out for everyone's general interests.  But a lot of the rest could work?

I'm not sure that a lot of this tale of madness is up to the pragmatic level of "cautionary tale."  But to me it's still interesting.

Chen Sheng Hao 2020 and 2024 blended sheng pu'er

Someone mentioned really liking a value-oriented Chen Sheng Hao sheng pu'er online awhile back, so I ordered it, and a second cake to make a free shipping threshold (for orders over $70; that's quite fair, on the low side).  I don't remember which cake it was that they liked, of the two that I ordered; probably the 2020 version, but since personal preference varies it could have been either.

I like the idea of producers being able to make above average quality, low cost, blended input sheng pu'er cake versions.  That was always the theme for the Yunnan Sourcing Impression cakes, to be better than Dayi 7542 versions, and not cost much.  They gave up that second part; most Impression versions are over $100 now, or at least they had been, when I last checked.

I've tried a sample set of mixed versions of Chen Sheng Hao sheng before, sent by them for review.  Some samples (mini-cakes) were really exceptional, some pretty good, and some more in an ordinary range, but that was the idea, for them to present a set covering different range.  Previous individual posts would say more about all of that.

There was a problem with the shipping for this; Flash Express, a local Thai shipper, misplaced this on the last transit step.  Eventually I did get it, after some delay.  I think that's the second glitch in getting tea through them in about four tries, so they're around 50-50 for losing and then finding packages again, for me.  

Maybe it relates to the labels not being in Thai script (their local alphabet).  Transliterated place and address name use is very common here, but that may not work well for all local companies.  For people living in Thailand, and ordering tea from abroad, you really need to have it sent by standard mail / EMS anyway, so that import taxation is assigned at the local post office, versus packages being held at an import center, that they can't really make it back out of.  The process worked, this time, and as things worked out I have lots of other tea to be trying and writing about anyway, so the delay didn't matter.  But I'm getting to this fast, after getting it, because I've been curious about it.

2020 Fu Raw Pu-erh Tea  ($57 for a 357 gram cake)

Sourcing from Menghai, Yunnan

Blended (Multi-Region)

Tea tree over 80 years

The specially made Pu-erh was skillfully composed by Chen Sheng Hao with an elaborate combination of selected ecological ancient arbor tree aging material teas from tea mountain in Yunnan, China.

It affords liquid with a pure aroma and fine taste and is characterized by a sweet after-taste all its own. The tea has been well stored in the storage center of Chen Sheng Hao. The storage will help the tea to transform its bitter and astringent character into something rich and complex.

2024 Gan En Raw Pu-erh Tea  ($41 for a 357 gram cake)

Blended (Multi-Region)

Tea tree over 100 years

The 17-year development of Chen Sheng Hao owes much to the recognition and love of tea enthusiasts who have stood by us through thick and thin.

To express our gratitude to all those who have supported the growth of Chen Sheng Hao and accompanied the Chen Sheng Hao brand, we are proud to introduce the "Gan En" Raw Puerh Tea (357g ) and Gan En 99 Ripe Puerh Tea (200g). The name "Gan En 99" (感恩99) is a homophone for "Gan'en Jiu Jiu," (感恩久久) which means "Long-lasting gratitude."

The raw Puerh "Gan En" has a high, lasting aroma, a mellow and full flavor, and a sweet aftertaste.

There isn't really that much in those descriptions about flavor profiles, but that sort of makes sense.  Whatever they would have written originally about a 6 year old version would have kept changing from year to year, and even a description like "pronounced bitterness" may or may not apply well in a few years.  I'll add plenty of my own description here.

Review:  

way overbrewed, obviously; overestimating timing to get them started

2020 Fu Raw Pu-erh Tea:  warm in tone; I don't remember the age of this, but it can't be that young.  Bitterness and astringency aren't high, yet, which I would have expected from the color, but I'd expect the next round to be quite different.  This is quite promising.  Hints of pleasant warm toned floral range stands out, and there will be plenty of mineral evolving in this, it seems, and other complexity.

2024 Gan En Raw Pu-erh Tea:  a good bit sharper, with more bitterness and astringency, and one unusual vegetal range flavor, that borders on mineral tone, or overlaps with it.  It seems to include some citrus as well, along the line of dried orange or tangerine peel.  

Of course I've screwed up the proportion again; that's more or less my norm now, never adjusting for teas being on the intense side.  These are maxed out, at 8 or 9 grams, which means that I won't get too far through them (or rather I did, by way of drinking a lot of tea, and throwing away the last of some of the rounds).  It would make more sense to brew these using 5 or 6 grams, even for drinking one alone, I just don't usually make tea in that way.

A infusion #2, the 2020 version (I wrote notes without looking up names, which didn't add much later anyway):  brewed light these seem to still be opening up.  Bitterness and astringency are higher, and overall intensity, even for a flash brewed round.  Floral intensity and complexity is good; it's pleasant.  Feel is nice, although that will keep developing, as aftertaste also will.  

For a moderate cost version sheng this already stands out.  It doesn't seem like a lot of blending input has rounded off the more distinctive form of individual aspects either.  It's mostly covering floral range, which can seem a little general, but some depth to that could be different things, like cooked pumpkin or ripe papaya.  A flinty mineral edge is pleasant, and there is warm depth to the mineral as well.  It's nice.

B (the 2024 version):  that one bitter aspect really ramps up.  Someone would have to be ok with significant bitterness to like this.  I've eaten a lot of bitter gourd this year, or bitter melon, maybe some call it, grown in our garden in Hawaii, and this reminds me of that, the vegetal range mixed with pronounced bitterness.  I'm fine with a good bit of bitterness, but I tend to like more approachable sheng more.

This is so bitter that the aftertaste carries over as both bitterness and sweetness, which is interesting.  Usually the bitterness transitions directly to sweetness, but this still includes both.  Other flavor seems to be heavy on mineral.  That citrus fruit tone might re-emerge once the rest settles down a little.

A #3:  not so different; it might be a few infusions until this evolves further.  Bitterness, full feel, with considerable astringency, and warm floral and mineral tones stand out.  The balance is good.  I think it will be better once it loosens up a little more, in a couple more rounds, but it's pleasant now.

B:  other flavor starts to develop beyond the bitterness, but that bitterness really still stands out.  Did I ever read the product description, prior to ordering this?  At least it has plenty of intensity to continue to evolve; there is no way this tea would just die, over any time-frame.  

People might place this vegetal range differently.  There's a sharpness and heaviness to it that reminds me of pine sawdust, for example when you are cutting a lot of plywood, maybe to put a roof on a house.  It's also not unlike bitter melon, or bitter gourd.  I just bought that as a pre-prepared herb tea, sold in Royal Project stores here.  It's a bit intense, to be infusing as a tisane, even in a trace amount, but if it's as healthy as the rough taste implies then it would be worth it.

A #4:  this evolves into a spice range depth; that's pleasant, and a good sign for further aging transition.  It's along the line of an incense spice, some exotic bark flavor, agar wood or whatever (just placing the range; I really can't identify that particular flavor).  It's not really "loosening up" in terms of initial intensity and punch softening, but it should get there.

B:  this does continue to evolve to soften and come across as more complex, but the other has been more approachable and less intense across all the transitions.  I don't find that somewhat extreme vegetal range off-putting; it kind of works.  It's distinctive, and pretty far from the not so pleasant "tastes like kerosene" sheng flavor that puts people off, the more typical factory version input.  Maybe this starts to taste like leather instead of pine sawdust, a positive transition.  

But it's not as unpleasant as that makes it sound.  Sweetness is good, bitterness kind of works, feel isn't so bad, full and intense, but nice enough.  You're in it for the ride, with this degree of intensity, and challenging character, but it works, within that range.

A, #5:  now it loosens up, a little, gaining even more warm spice complexity.  It's hard to pin down what that newly evolved aspect is.  Let's just leave it at warm spice, and give it another read as rounds progress.

In re-trying it during editing I don't mention a dry edge to the feel, which seems to link to a particular range of mineral flavor.  For some people that would balance nicely with the rest, for others it could be inconsequential, and for others yet it could be a deal-breaker, a very negative aspect range that ruins the experience.  Higher end, more expensive, often presented as gushu material sheng tends to be different than this, to express a softer but full feel, and a lot of depth.  So I suppose it's not just personal preference in relation to aspects and styles that factors in, but acclimation to different other ranges of sheng pu'er experience.

B:  this loosens up too; that's pleasant!  Bitterness evolves to soften and fall into a lower range balance with the rest.  Tones seem a little warmer.

A #6:  this integrates as a unified, balanced experience better than ever.  It's definitely punching above its weight for a well-balanced, complex, and intense moderate cost sheng.  Feel is pleasant, and intensity carries over to a nice aftertaste expression.  Warmer mineral tones, now transitioned to include a good bit of spice, balance the lighter mineral, bitterness, and floral range.  

This doesn't include the aggressive, harsher intensity that might indicate it would still be intense in complex in another 25 years, but it doesn't seem like it would just die either.  It's in a nice place for medium age range transitioning, no matter how old or young it is just now.  Within the next 5 years or so it should keep on picking up warmer tones and depth, before it eventually might fall into a "teen years" sort of off character, not balancing as well for changing from one thing to another.  It would be pleasant during those transition years (the next 5), because it's pleasant now.

B:  it's interesting how floral range really seems to pick up in this, as if perhaps it had been there all along, but it needed the bitterness and other vegetal range to quiet down a little to show through.  It has a really pronounced green vegetal note, which I've been describing in different ways, as it keeps evolving.  Sure, it still tastes somewhat like bitter gourd.  But that flavor is quite different when it's hitting hard as a very dominant tone, and when you can get it to integrate with other range (I mean related to cooking with it, but here as it works as one component among others in an infusion).  

This may loosen up well too, over the next 5 years, with that heavy astringency, bitterness, and vegetal range giving way to whatever it transitions to.  It's not as pleasant just now, per my own preferences, but I suppose for people really into bitterness this is already just the thing.  It will probably be the best it has been within another 3 infusions or so, which I may not make it to during this round of note taking.  A dozen rounds of intense sheng is a lot to get through.  I've been throwing away some of the last of these rounds, to get a little further through, but I've been drinking most of it, so I'm 10 intense infusions in, which is an awful lot.  I'll probably do another, to mention some last thoughts on transition patterns.

It kind of goes without saying but brewing 5 or 6 grams of just one of these teas would be a lot more optimum than brewing 8 of both together.  On one level I already knew that, but it's a hard habit to break.

A #7:  the best this has been, but I could write the same words as the last round and those would work.  Warmer mineral and spice tones balance what had been present well.  I'll probably taste both of these again and notice that I missed some pretty obvious flavor descriptions.  I tried that one Viet Sun maocha again, one of the Y Ty versions, and noticed pronounced mint in later infusions, which I hadn't mentioned.  It can work out like that.  

There is so much warmth and depth in this that one part reminds me of a very light roasted coffee flavor.  You know when the berry notes present in some coffee can still emerge, because roast hasn't pulled it so far in the other direction?  Like that.  It's not overly berry-like, but something like dried blueberry might fit one part of it.  I'm not really pushing the tea hard enough to get the most conventional flavor expression out of it; these have still been very quickly brewed infusions.  That would surely mean these are only half spent so far, so that I'll miss the second half of the rounds in taking notes.  That's fine.

B:  again this balances better than ever too.  A full, syrupy feel is much more pleasant than a harsher blast of intensity in earlier rounds.  Sweetness stands out more, and floral range.  One part probably does relate to a dried citrus peel note, which was much lighter earlier on.  It's still a bit intense, and the feel is still a little harsh, in terms of pulling at the sides of your mouth, especially after you drink it.  

This might not have fully "loosened up" just yet; it may be best after a couple more rounds, at infusion 7.  If I had brewed 5 grams instead of 8 it could be much further along, for using longer infusion times, and speeding up that cycle.  Somehow this seemed like a mistake that had to be made.  I really don't understand why, but then I'm guided by intuition as much as reason, and I'm probably just botching lots of range of experience in making random choices like that.

A #8:  it might be time to start using longer than flash infusions for this.  It still provides plenty of intensity in that form, but the character would change some.

B:  for this one intensity is high enough that extending brewing time probably wouldn't help; this is enough.  The aspects description from the last round still works for both though.

A local Thai tea friend, who I don't know very well, that one guy that gets presented as a tea expert, Stephen, gave me a quite bitter sheng version a couple of years ago, that this reminds me of, in part.  It has softened and deepened to be quite pleasant, of course not losing all of that bitterness.  This probably includes a little more of a distinctive vegetal range flavor; that was just straight bitterness, with the usual floral and mineral range supporting that.

Ninth round, combined notes:  the bitterness, feel structure, and intensity ramp up for the first version, when brewed longer.  The balance does shift, back to more typical young or slightly aged sheng range, a couple years into transition.  The other tea picks up even more green wood character.  I suppose I hadn't been calling it that, but that's where it has shifted to now.   

Conclusions:

Very pleasant teas, considerably better than I expected, or even hoped for.  They're not even finished in terms of me getting a full experience of them, in general or for this brewing cycle; I can change brewing process and they'll be much different.  Within another year or two they'll be different in a different sense, actually evolving some in terms of fermentation transition, no matter how old they are.  It will be interesting looking up what these are, and commenting in relation to that.

Related to value you tend to never spend a moderate amount (around $100 for these two cakes, when many in a comparable range cost that for one), and see good results, and these were really nice, for value-oriented versions.  Again opinions would vary on that; some people would love them, and find them much better than the factory sheng that they've been experiencing, and for others accustomed to other range they could both seem off-putting.

The "older" version, from 2020, is at a decent place, for people who like a tea with a number of years of transition.  I'm accustomed to teas transitioning fast, living in Bangkok, and they surely weren't stored that hot or humid.  The storage input seems fine, related to conditions, to the extent someone can say anything about that.  They would've been better preserved, if stored quite cool and dry, so at least they are transitioning.

It's interesting to speculate about the high bitterness level and unusual vegetal nature of the younger 2024 version.  I think within 2 years it will probably come across quite differently, and I can't really guess about how it will change (especially flavor range, I mean).  For a tea sold at that price point it's great, because that's down in moderate cost factory tea range, and it's much better than that.  Of course someone needs to be ok with significant bitterness.  It doesn't include the challenging astringency that comes with low elevation grown, chopped plantation material versions, but it still packs a punch.

If you spend twice as much you can find versions like the 2020 tea that include slightly more distinctive flavor profiles, and more positive feel, but at this selling price point you probably can't do any better, if you can find anything remotely comparable to start with.  It's a perfect tea for a daily drinking rotation, when you feel like that style range; the role I hoped that it would fill.  It might hold up well to another decade of storage, and more complete aging, but I may well not find out, since I'll go ahead and drink it.

The 2024 tea might be much better after 2 or 3 more years of "early" character evolution; time will tell.  It's fine now, if an intense, bitter, somewhat vegetal range experience works for someone (with more floral flavor range expressed, but a little green wood or bitter melon flavor really stands out).  It might age well in the longer term; I really don't know.  One part of the "benchmark" theme related to the Dayi 7542, and the like, or typical Xiaguan character, is that you can expect common, known early character type to change in expected ways, but this is a little different.

Lai Chau (Vietnam) forest green tea, and Jin Xuan Fujian green

 

Viet Sun Deep Forest left, Moychay Jin Xuan right, in all photos

I'm comparison tasting a Moychay Jin Xuan green tea with a Viet Sun Lai Chau Deep Forest Green tea (the second from spring of 2026, with the first not listing a date, but probably from this year).

This comparison is really throwing the Moychay tea version to the wolves; I already know the Viet Sun tea is exceptional, from trying earlier forms.  It held its own well though.

Moychay sent a number of different samples to try, in part related to me helping with some editing.  It's much appreciated; it will be a great chance to try lots of familiar types, and some new ones.  Most of it is warmer toned versions, lots of black tea, oolongs, some fermented / hei cha range, even some flavored versions.  It makes sense that for a lot of the year in cooler European climate warmer teas would be favored.  Not just now, so much, when lighter teas would go better with a heat wave, but it'll be fall again soon, and spring wasn't so long ago.

This is the last tea I have to try from Viet Sun, from the last order (sent as a sample for review; I'd keep buying sheng and black tea from them, if I had included more than a few versions).  Green tea is more or less my least favorite category, but the exceptions can be nice, like this one.

One additional thing I wanted to mention:  Steve said that their sales were down this year.  It's not hard to guess why (not related to teas being unfavorable; they're good):  the economy can seem uncertain in lots of places now, and inflation already stresses plenty of people's budgets.  I wonder if there aren't other inputs though.

I'm not sure how Moychay's business either expands or flattens out in "the West;" I haven't kept up with hearing about that.  This is all supposed to just be about the teas anyway.

I'm also just coming out of a 6 day long illness, I think in decent shape for tasting.  I'll lose a little intensity and finer flavor sensitivity to this cold, but it's resolved enough that drinking light teas again makes sense.  For those more difficult days it was nice drinking mild black tea, not getting much of the flavor, but appreciating the depth.

the Viet Sun version; I forgot to take a picture of the dry leaves when tasting them

the Moychay tea; the leaves looked even finer in person

Let's check their sales page input for their descriptions, and pricing:

Lai Châu Deep Forest Green Spring 2026 (they're only selling 250 grams for $57.50 now, no other sizes, at 23 cents a gram)

A green tea made from same tea tree varietal as our Lào Cai Deep forest teas but on the Lai Châu side of the mountain range. 

The tea trees in this area are growing to heights of 10+ meters in the deep forest at 2200m+ in elevation. The rich biodiversity and natural growing conditions really make their way into the cup.

This tea brews up slowly into a rich, clear golden soup. The flavor is unique and complex. Reminds me of forest flower honey, herbs, strawberry or raspberry and wild grasses with a lot of umami. There are some similarities to Japanese green teas.

Light astringency and bitterness, thick mouthfeel, long rich huigan and relaxing qi.

Another interesting aspect of this tea is the aging potential. I have tried teas from past years and they get sweeter and richer over time. The honey notes become more prominent as well.

Maybe I was thinking of that other origin area green tea from them...

Green Tea Jin Xuan Lü Cha (they only list a 7 gram size for 2 Euros, 33 cents a gram, with the 50 gram size having been sold for 30 cents a gram, when it was available)

Jin Xuan Green Tea is a high-mountain green tea produced from the Jin Xuan oolong cultivar in Sanming City, Fujian Province. Grown at an average altitude of 1100 meters, the tea is cultivated by a sustainable agriculture enterprise, recognized nationally as a green tea production base.

Harvested by hand in April, the tea is picked as one bud with two leaves. Processing follows a traditional green tea method: sun withering, indoor airing, pan-firing (kill-green), rolling, and drying... 

...Its fragrance is rich and floral, accompanied by a distinct fresh soybean note. The taste is smooth, refreshing, and sweet, making it particularly enjoyable for daily drinking.

It's interesting considering that both are probably relatively safe tea options.  Producers surely aren't pouring fertilizer and pesticide on forest grown teas, and the Jin Xuan is presented as a sustainable production output.

Of course Jin Xuan is #12 in a series of developed cultivars (cross bred plant types) in Taiwan, produced a long time ago there.  Rolled oolongs here in Thailand tend to be Jin Xuan, #17 (Ruan Zhi or Bai Lu; kind of a long story about that naming), or maybe Tie Guan Yin or Qing Xin. 

Review:

Lai Chau, first infusion:  I brewed these quite light to start; I'm not sure why that made sense to me.  Flavor is nice, just light.  There's a freshness and depth to this, with good floral range and mineral base showing through already.  It will work better as a breakdown next round.  

Moychay Jin Xuan:  it's interesting how much umami this expresses.  That might throw off using personal preference as a main marker; I can appreciate how good Japanese teas are, but I like other styles more.  This could possibly be as good as the other tea, just much different in style.  The other tea expressed some umami, but this includes more.  It's a lot better than the Thai versions one might run across here, but that's typically a low bar to clear.  The oolongs are better, and most aren't great.

Brightness and freshness relate to the main range you experience, then floral depth and sweetness enters in, with lots of an umami edge.  It seems this will balance well, and be quite complex, again easier to describe as a breakdown next round.

Lai Chau #2:  lots of intensity; brewing this 6 or so grams for over 10 seconds provides an intense infusion.  Floral range is so sweet, rich, and intense that this tastes like perfume smells.  You get some vegetal range with that, that's hard to describe, maybe along the line of deep forest fern (like the scent; you don't eat those).  After you drink it a strong aftertaste and full feel occurs in the back of your mouth, not just the throat, but the entire rear part.  Mineral stands out in that, not light or warm mineral, but mineral with depth, a range of it.  It's all quite clean.  Maybe a touch of pine bark is there, beyond those described aspects, but that's clean too.

It's complex; it would work to use other descriptions.  There is some umami.  Floral range is complex; there's a lot one could associate with it, probably as a few notes, or a range of them.  One catchy part is rich and deep, like lavender, but there's more to it.  Related to vegetal range sugar snap pea sort of applies.

Jin Xuan:  that umami hits you first, then such a strong floral input that in some teas you'd think this was altered.  But it doesn't work out that flavor-adjusted teas show the added flavor more after the first round; that kind of thing extracts right away.  And I don't think it's even possible to add umami like this.  This tea is clearly natural, it's just distinctive and unique.  

Others could place this in relation to Japanese green tea range better than I can, maybe a specific type of sencha.  It's there, with that umami, and rich floral range expression, good intensity, clean nature, good balance, refinement, etc.  Aftertaste is sweet and umami range combined.  This does hold its own with the other version.  Even for living in a country that produces a lot of Jin Xuan cultivar, and trying plenty from Taiwan (typically oolongs though, in both places) this is probably the best green tea version I've tried from that plant type.  It would be more impressive if that came up more often, but it's still really good.

In trying the last of the other there's a savory note in it too, but it's more a sun-dried tomato oriented aspect, where this is closer to the seaweed umami, it just doesn't really taste like seaweed.

Lai Chau #3:  it falls into a nice balance, with all of those layers and levels combining well.  But it's not really different.  It's nice the way that a savory sun-dried tomato umami depth ties the rest together, and how it all balances.  It's an unusually complex version of green tea.

Jin Xuan:  the proportion of those flavors changed, with umami and a specific floral note really standing out.  It also expresses depth, complexity, and balance, but those two notes stand out more than the rest.

Lai Chau #4:  vegetal range is standing out a little more; in one sense this is already fading, or at least changing, I suppose to be less positive.  It still has lots to offer though.  Perfume-like floral range is pronounced, and lots of aspects combine together.  The feel is still full and rich.

Jin Xuan:  maybe it was already transitioning towards this in the last round, but a savory note tastes a lot like toasted rice, like that flavor aspect in Longjing.  It's interesting, positioned along with a seaweed oriented umami flavor, and a good bit of rich floral range.  That still resembles lavender, to me.

Intensity, depth, and complexity are pronounced in this; it more than holds its own.  But as you go back and taste the other tea after even for giving up a little in intensity and range it's still just as pleasant, for those other flavors combining so well.  Both are holding up well, but then it is only the fourth round.

They both brewed a couple more really nice infusions, and weren't dead even after that, but I stopped taking notes there.

Conclusions:

I'm surprised that I liked the Moychay Jin Xuan as much as I did, and that it represented that high a quality level.  It's one of the better green teas I've tried in a long time, and even people accustomed to better Japanese green tea would probably love it, and also be surprised by it.  The dominant umami transitioning to other range made it better for me; the other floral tones and additional complexity worked well.  I didn't expect all of that.

But then the Viet Sun deep forest green tea was as good as I remember, very distinctive and pleasant.  I suppose due to me liking the flavor aspect range better I did like it better than the other version, but it might work to objectively say that the Jin Xuan version is slightly better quality tea.  It was more refined, with both being quite complex, and a little more distinctive in style.

Related to value both are kind of equivalent.  The Vietnamese version is selling for 23 cents a gram (at higher volume; equating volume would level out the difference), and the Chinese Jin Xuan for 30, but one already went through import to Europe, which adds cost, and potential value, for people paying different import taxes depending on origin there.  Tea as good as either would still be a decent value if selling for more; these were both exceptional.

So the only catch is that I'm a sheng pu'er drinker, and that I like black tea and varying oolong types best as fall-backs.  I like novel and pleasant hei cha versions more than green tea, which I can still appreciate, but I just never end up buying it.  I had routinely made an exception for Longjing, for years, but now I just stick to those others, and buy mostly sheng, and some black tea.

For people who really do like green tea, and want to explore what these two vendors sell, these are both good options.

Marmalade grows up fast