Visiting with friends at my favorite Bangkok Chinatown shop

I met up with friends at my favorite Bangkok Chinatown shop yesterday, at Jip Eu (which is here).  Those owners feel like visiting family; it would be nice to hang out there even without having any tea, or buying any.

I'll break this into a short account of what we tried, and general guidance on how visiting a Chinatown shop might go.  There are different pros and cons to tea shopping at different kinds of shops, and the typical range of Chinatown shop experiences is unique.  Potential is great for finding good tea at great value, or things that are hard to find elsewhere, even compared to online, since sorting is a problematic issue, and the option to try versions changes everything.

I've been to a lot of Chinatowns.  We live in Honolulu part time now--I just got back from three months spent there--and I've visited NYC's a couple of times.  Honolulu's Chinatown has issues with homelessness and crime, and tea selection there is all but nonexistent.  Chinatowns are interesting in Japan, and I've been to a related neighborhood in Seoul, I just don't think they called it that.  We've visited Hong Kong, China, and Taiwan multiple times too; in a different sense those are just Chinese cities.

Bangkok's Chinatown is unique for being huge.  I think I've heard that San Francisco's is on the same size scale, but that it may not be quite as extensive.  There is a lot of Chinese influence in Thai culture in general; it can be hard to identify where it leaves off.

That visit

We tried a tea presented as a Bing Dao (that Kittichai, the owner, was drinking, making it grandpa style for himself in a brewing cup), and CNNP (Zhongcha) and Dayi (purple label) aged sheng versions, both around 20 years old.  

In the middle the subject of green tea came up, and we tried an exceptional version of Longjing, kind of odd for tasting form.  I love Longjing (Dragonwell); it's the only kind of green tea that I seek out and buy.  I'll buy fishhook style Thai Nguyen Vietnamese tea if I see it, because it's pleasant, and typically a good value, but Longjing is my favorite, the only green tea that I like as much as other types range.  That version you could essentially "taste" by smell, as dry leaf and while it was brewing.  It tastes like toasted rice, it seems to me, although you can isolate that main flavor as seeming like nuts or floral range, if you see it differently, and it even resembles boiled egg a little.

The CNNP version was intense, with really heavy earthy flavors.  It became milder and balanced better and better across infusions.  I own half a cake of that same tea, and 1 1/2 of the Dayi, and 1 1/2 of a Xiaguan 8863 version from there, all around 20 years old.  I could look back through review posts here and identify ages better, but they're all from 2004 to 2006.

It's odd how the Dayi purple label version looks so transitioned by age in comparison, with dark oil spots, and even a hole here or there in the paper.  I asked the one shop owner about that, and she said that paper thickness makes a lot of difference.  Of course a producer using a second interior paper sheet also would.

that Dayi cake; both are pretty dark

The Dayi / Taetea version was much milder, with intense, complex, and even slightly challenging initial infusions giving way to very balanced, nuanced, and pleasant rounds after that.  It's hard to express any of it as a flavors breakdown.  I see CNNP as tasting earthier (with all expressing lots of warm mineral base), then the Dayi as leaning towards spice or fruit range, and the Xiaguan (which we didn't taste) as tasting like leather, or how an old barn smells.  In a good sense, I guess.

Breaking up a cake for those two friends to share; I've not seen this before.  I've bought a cake all broken up like that before, a Wawee Thai origin cake from 2022, I think it was.  It aged quite fast and drank well even though it was relatively young.  That technique seems to let the leaves break naturally, versus how a tea knife might fragment them if you aren't careful.

It was pleasant trying the teas over a couple of hours, chatting a lot about tea experience, and drawing on expert input from Kittichai.  He explained how the numbering system for pu'er cakes works, and mapped out general character differences from more Northern and Southern growing area ranges in Yunnan.  As generalities, of course; the variation is distinct at a very local level, with lots of other inputs factoring in.  For those main types of factory teas, from main producers, the higher level generalities probably work better, and we could compare his input from what we tasted just then.

The CNNP seemed to need another 5 years to fully transition, even though it was about 20 years old, and had been stored in hot and humid conditions.  That's per my impression and what Kittichai passed on.  The Dayi is ready now, or really any tea is ready whenever you prefer how it tastes and feels.

I bought a 2012 Xiaguan tuocha, and a spare gaiwan; my tea budget is a bit crashed from ordering so much Vietnamese sheng recently.

Shopping in Chinatown shops

The main difficulty in shopping at Jip Eu is a common one; if someone they don't know walks in they'll ask what kind of tea that person wants.  If you answer that you are interested in lots of range, and want to know what they have, it all breaks down.  They have some of lots of things in there, and no summary list of any of it. 

That shop is primarily an outlet for oolong, for business to business sales of low cost, limited quality blended Shui Xian, and then they also carry high end Wuyi Yancha.  They have some exceptional versions of aged sheng, which they tend to sell at great value, or in some cases at a standard market rate.  I've bought pretty good Dan Cong oolong in there before, a few times, upper-medium quality tin versions that sell at moderate pricing.  That's a rare find; the two extremes come up more, for that tea type, expensive and very good versions or so-so lower elevation plantation tea.  I've tried local Thai teas there, have bought jasmine green tea, tried Anxi Tie Guan Yin rolled oolong versions, and even bought an aged cake of silver needle style white tea once.

Of course there is no price listing, or other written reference; it would be impossible to get a clear feel for everything that they have.  Other local shops focus more on tasting lots of things, and it varies how that might go there.  It's not their typical sales approach, for random people to come in and try lots of things.  You can try teas for which there are already package versions open, and the more you know them the better tasting experience will go.  I've tried plenty of tea there they don't even sell, what they happen to be drinking just then, or some exceptional version they ran across samples of.

Sen Xing Fa works as an example of the other kind of outlet, where it's set up for people to come in and try lots of teas.  They carry more Thai oolong range, and sell teas from the typical large plastic bins, which does work, but that isn't ideal storage conditions.  

tea meetup at Sen Xing Fa; they're good visit hosts

There's a trade-off related to this kind of shop style; the cost of extra sampling ends up being built into sales pricing.  Value is exceptional at Jip Eu, either just fine for market rate or else a very good deal, depending on how they purchased the teas, how direct their producer connection is.  Value is either in a normal market range or on the high side at Sen Xing Fa instead.  For people not watching per-unit cost closely it may not matter, if they spend 1 1/2 times as much for the same amount of tea.  Novelty of what is available and broad selection can amount to different kinds of value.  

Jip Eu definitely sells rare and novel teas too, but the selection range is less consistent, and it's harder to find the exceptions when they aren't sitting out in large jars.  Less than optimum storage conditions, like that, are a real issue for tea enthusiasts, with good reason.  Sen Xing Fa does keep their Longjing well-sealed in a refrigerator, which makes a lot of sense in a hot and humid place like Bangkok.

Sen Xing Fa carries some factory sheng range; that's nice to have available

A third type of Chinatown shop it's harder to find examples of in Bangkok, the general market environment.  This turns up in the NYC and Honolulu Chinatowns, and probably elsewhere.  Selection of tins of tea would be far more common in such places, and some of those would be quite pleasant, and others of moderate or low quality.  

New Kam Man Chinese market in Manhattan, NYC

Buying teas from large plastic storage bins would work out even worse in places where shop sales volume is more limited.  And quality level could be very inconsistent; I had a uniquely bad experience buying an artificially flavored Lapsang Souchong from a market in the Manhattan Chinatown.  I had to throw that out, but not before it contaminated my clothing smell, through a sealed bag.  No matter how busy you are when tea shopping, or how thrown-off by external factors like a hot day, or heavy snowstorm, it helps to focus in and at least give the dry teas a smell while you are buying them.

Without trying teas it can be hard to get a feel for quality level in shops.  One comes to mind in NYC where the shop looked like a standard curator theme, where everything might be very exceptional, but instead everything was quite passable, decent but not great.  

This kind of outcome can be common in corporate chain shops, where they are selling very high production volume versions of standard teas.  Even when they present something as more novel, higher in quality, and rarer, they may still buy that in very large production lots, versus smaller scale vendors being able to curate small producer, limited batch size teas.

Price doesn't necessarily help as an indicator.  Any type of vendor can use a higher than average mark-up, and extra descriptions of how exceptional teas are to justify that.  One name in particular comes to mind related to this, not in the countries that I've already mentioned, but I'll omit naming them here.

How would one work around that initial problem I described, the exchange that ends with no answers to "what kind of tea do you like?" and "what is best from this shop?"  Tasting helps.  It can make a lot of difference if a customer can communicate starting points, to explain a few kinds of ranges of teas that they already know that they like.  Plenty of people appreciate lots of tea range, but they also know their own favorites.

In some cases one visit to a shop won't do it, and working through it all as best you can only works out better when you buy some teas, then return again later.  That's not helpful for tourists, where the one visit may be all there is to work with.  Another strategy may also not be helpful; if you can connect with a local and get input they can pass on favorites.  Locally oriented Facebook tea groups may help with this, if you prepare ahead; you can contact a lot of people that you'd never get to know in person that way.  People might "gatekeep" their absolute favorite versions, not putting that out there online, but they might mention helpful generalities.

Oddly none of what I've mentioned is helpful for buying the kinds of teas I like most, like good Thai Wawee origin sheng.  It's not in Chinatown shops, or even in shops of any kind in Bangkok.  It would work better to find decent Vietnamese sheng in Hanoi shops, but even there you might have better luck just buying it online, from an outlet like Viet Sun.

I actually visited a Chinatown in Japan, in Yokohama, without putting it together that I'd be there only to buy Chinese teas, that it related only to that local theme.  That was kind of silly, looking back on it.  

You can find Thai rolled oolong in the Sen Xing Fa shop, Jin Xuan and such, but there aren't many other exceptions, that I've ran across.  Jip Eu would sell very inexpensive and limited quality Wuyi Yancha style oolong, or maybe something like jasmine green tea, but tea enthusiasts would tend to seek out a different range.  I've had great luck with buying 100 baht ($3) 100 gram folded paper packs of blended Shui Xian there in the past, but that kind of thing is inconsistent.  

Given that very moderate expense level it might be good for even a more discerning tea enthusiast to gamble on a little of that inexpensive range while there, to see how it goes, and to seek out much better tea through more discussion input and tasting exposure.

the Ju Jen shop in Paradise Park mall; there are decent shops outside Chinatown, but not many

Son La and Giang Pang Vietnamese spring 2024 sheng

Reviewing two more very pleasant spring maocha Vietnamese sheng versions, "pu'er-style" teas from Viet Sun.  The last two were very nice, and these might be even better.

Tasting context is a little unusual; I'm trying them at mid-day on a hot Bangkok afternoon.  It must be around 35 C out, or in the upper 90s F.  Heat acclimation is one goal, and also getting out of the house, where my kids are playing video games, and shouting a bit.  I can turn on the room AC in a different part of the house or use outdoor space to get some distance from the noise.

Steve / Viet Sun's descriptions of these:

Sơn La Wild Tree Spring 2024 ($28 per 100 grams)

A very interesting tea from a newly discovered high mountain tea area west of Tà Xùa, Sơn La.

This tea is made from wild growing non-Sinensis varietal trees growing at 2300-2500m. The leaves and stems are bright green with a light purple hue.

The dry leaf has a nutty, raisin, earthy fragrance and brews up slowly into a rich golden soup. This is a gentle tea with a minimal bitterness and no astringency. I get notes of raisins, nuts, green vegetables, tree resin, forest leaves and honey. Long sweet finish and a relaxing qi.

This varietal has thick, hearty leaves so I like to brew a large amount of leaves and do long steeps at 95-100C. I recommend setting aside at least 30 min to fully enjoy this one as it starts off light and usually starts hitting it's stride around the 3rd or 4th steep for me.

Giàng Pằng "1 Big Tree" Spring 24 (had been $31 per 100 grams, now sold out)

A batch made from one really big tree in Lềnh’s father’s garden processed by Steve.

This tea brews up into a rich green golden soup. Heavily floral and vegetal with the characteristic melon/ plum leathery character that is prevalent in good teas from Giàng Pằng. This is a strong tea that goes many rounds with a deep huigan and energizing qi.

This tea performs best over a longer session with many infusions. Set aside 30-60 minutes to fully enjoy this one!

It's strange that Son La version seemed so conventional to me, and not so different than others I've tried.  It's possible that one flavor note in another tea I love also relates to it not being ordinary Assamica.  Often wild and atypical plant material versions have an odd sourness to them, as purple leaf versions can, just across different flavor scope, but what I'm talking about relates to deeper fruit tones instead.

In reading those descriptions I'm sure that I didn't get the most out of them in this tasting related to stopping in the middle.  My wife insisted on doing an errand on short notice, and I only got back to trying them the next day.  Teas don't hold up well here stored at hot and then warm room temperatures overnight; they were ok for drinking a few more rounds, but nothing like the day before.

I have the rest of 100 grams of each to keep drinking, but for others that second version is sold out, understandable since it was just one batch.  It was really lovely too; what Steve calls "the characteristic melon/ plum leathery character that is prevalent in good teas from Giàng Pằng" was just like that, and it was very pleasant.  Both were; readers might want to consider picking up some of the other, and have a look at the tea cakes too.  

And their "Other Category / Uncommon Teas;" I'm not sure what I'll be trying related to which samples Steve sent, or didn't send, but it's worth a look.  And of course their black teas.  Ordinarily I stop well short of explicit marketing but I've ordered teas three times from Steve over the past year or so for a good reason.  It's as well if the word doesn't get out too much, the favorite source gatekeeping theme, but with readership here limited it's fine to talk about it.

Review:

Son La:  bright, fresh, sweet, and complex, even for still opening up.  I gave both a 20+ second infusion time to speed that along but a rinse step seems to work better, I just don't do that.  This flavor profile is familiar, for drinking a lot of Steve's teas.  Honey stands out, and what would most likely be interpreted as floral range, but light fruit also kind of works.  Floral range is hard for me to break down, but fruit might be in between yellow watermelon and lighter citrus.  

There's one deep honey / floral / fruit note that I'm really stuck on now as a personal favorite that's in this, probably a catchy set of flavors, that complement each other.  Bitterness and astringency are very moderate, but then these are just getting started.

Giang Pang:  deeper, warmer flavors; that's interesting.  At first it strikes you as like plum, but then it seems there's more to it than that.  Again non-distinct floral tones could work as a description, but I should probably leave off to the next round to guess a longer set of descriptions.

As a reminder I never read the vendor descriptions before writing the review notes; that plum tone Steve also mentioned does really stand out.

Son La #2:  some limited bitterness and more fullness of feel joined in, right on schedule.  The same set of flavors is present.  This isn't so different than the 2023 Son La cake I just bought another version of, a tea that I've drank a half cake of; not the same, but as I remember with some common ground.  Re-ordering that is a good sign for expression of preference; it's quite good.  This may lean towards that other favorite tea I just ordered in relation to that one flavor set, rich honey, warm floral, and fruit tone that is hard to describe.  It's towards dried apricot, but not quite that.  I suppose if someone was "looking for" some kind of light herbal edge that might be there too, balancing the rest, something light like lemongrass, or holy basil.  

General tone is pretty bright; I guess preference for or against that might determine relation to preference.  I think I'm kind of preference-neutral about that; warmer or lighter and brighter tone ranges can be fine for me.

Giang Pang:  this has more depth; it has filled in some flavor range.  It might be a little more subtle.  Both are fine for sweetness, clean nature, intensity, and complexity though.  It's definitely warmer in tone / flavor range.  Both are pretty sweet, as young sheng goes, or any sheng, really.  Bitterness isn't a main factor for either, maybe just a little more for balance in the other.

Breaking this down to flavor aspects could be tricky.  It includes sweetness, also like honey, and some non-distinct floral tone, and maybe fruit.  Then that's what I said about the other, but they're quite different.  A warmer fruit tone here might resemble dried orange peel, shifting to be more complex than the early plum, and a very light spice range input might be like clove.  I'll brew both stronger and see if that helps with determination.  Often trying infusions quite light works better for that, for some reason, but it's still worth a try.

Son La 3:  not transitioning much.  Richness of feel stands out even more, and mineral edge almost includes a touch of salt.  Those are both positive things, to be clear, at least as I'm taking them.  Feel gains depth and body.  Aftertaste experience is positive, but it could be even more pronounced.  It's odd this isn't more bitter, but then that's also normal for more wild-origin new sheng.  [Later edit:  not so odd at all if it's either not Assamica or a mix of plants including other range; more strange that this is so close to conventional sheng character instead.]

Giang Pang:  greater depth in this stands out, even though that's a subtle higher-level emergent description.  The feel is nice and rich, and aftertaste trails slightly stronger.  Flavors are less intense and complex, and definitely warmer in tone.  

For this being on the subtle side I think a lot of interpretations could work.  One might go on about a mineral input; that's there, and is pronounced.  Warm honey and floral range stand out the most, to me, but interpretation as a dried fruit is possible, not just dried orange peel, but maybe onto something like dried mango.  This does taste like dried mango, now that I think that.  Then I think people more oriented towards spice descriptions might go in different directions with interpretation.  To me it's a touch of clove, but it could seem like other things.

Son La 4:  fruit range might extend a little, along the former lines; I bet that I could describe that differently over a few more infusions.  I'm going to have to go though; my wife is going to have me go to the orthodontist with the kids soon.  It's funny how that mineral shifts form too; that's kind of novel.  Saying it tastes like salt isn't the best description, but there's something novel about what that part contributes.

Giang Pang:  this main fruit tone is evolving too, and the general intensity along with it.  It's still towards dried mango or dried orange peel, but it's somehow shifted in form or balance.  Maybe I can try a few more rounds later in the day and shed more light on these changes.

I didn't get around to trying more rounds until the next day, and as I said teas don't hold up well for that in hot places.  I have tried both again since, and as is typical it has shifted my impression of both.  I think both are a good bit softer in feel and more moderate in intensity than more typical young sheng.  It probably seemed more normal for trying both together.  

Pushing the Son La version a little I could draw out more flavor complexity, towards that raisin range Steve described.  Both are mild enough that it would work to brew them hotter (although using full boiling point water is normal), at a higher proportion, or longer, to see what input shift changes what outcome.  The Giang Pang version expressed even more fruit tones, brewed a bit stronger, some rounds in.  These both might be perfect for people who find sheng too bitter, astringent, and aggressive.

Conclusions

Both are relatively great teas, everything I would've hoped that they would be, even the diversity of character.  It can be hard to remember back but as I recall I like both more than the earlier two I'd reviewed.  

That may not be the most objective conclusion, because this range is what I love most in sheng just now, either bright floral or rich fruit flavors, good complexity and depth, teas being approachable, full in feel, quite sweet, even rich and sweet like honey, and not bitter.  For some not including a typical amount of bitterness, a more standard taste mineral base, and astringency would ruin the effect; fair enough.

I've not mentioned that these were probably oxidized more than is typical, which is a recurring discussion theme in describing a lot of South East Asian sheng.  Maybe they were, maybe not; probably a little.  I get the sense that hot weather tends to make that happen faster, so that even when it's not quite pronounced it's an input.  It would cost versions aging potential, and I'm not sure these would be great in another 15 to 20 years.  

Someone would be crazy to not just drink them, I think.  That cake Huyen gave me in January is down to two sessions worth, a tiny chunk, and I've ordered more from that producer.  The 2023 Son La cake I bought from Steve is half gone, and it would be all but drank if I hadn't left it behind during those three months in Honolulu.  I re-ordered it anyway; I'll finish it this year.  

All of these cakes could pick up depth and even more sweetness over a year or two, so it's not as if the clock is ticking, but I doubt keeping them around for 3 or 4 years would be the best idea.  Or maybe it would be, but I might never find that out.

Running related tangent

That heat acclimation seemed to help a lot with running later that day; on my second run back here in the Bangkok heat it was comfortable enough to run 10 km (6 1/2 miles in freedom units).  My energy level was great, with no aches and pains, and breathing nice and slow.  Even with apparent heat stress showing up in my heart rate it wasn't uncomfortable at all:

I've never experienced any plateau of running at 160 bpm heart rate, and that felt normal.  I suspect it became normal during hill climbs in Honolulu, going uphill around Diamondhead, but I wasn't monitoring heart rate then.  Oddly that rate dropped sharply when I slowed the pace, but then my splits stayed relatively the same, bumping from 6:30 to 6:45:

Not really my normal pace, which is more like 6:20 / km, or lower for a flat course run, but for running in low-30s C / over 90 F that's fine.

The strange part is that I ran almost as fast a pace at a 160 bpm heart rate as later at 125-130, slowing just a little.  In Honolulu I would really be able to relax and run smoother and faster at around 7-8 km, out and back the Ala Wai canal, but even so this seemed extreme.  I thought the device might be having problems sensing input through sweat, but it seemed certain of the consistent results.

ice skating with the kids; that makes more sense here

Pretty privilege explained

This is way off anything I usually write about here, or my normal range of interest, but I ran across what seemed to be a good explanation of how being an attractive female has benefits recently, here. 

That's a Facebook video post of a Tik Tok video, not posted by that content producer (@victhepath, it looks like).

Her account is pretty simple; there are tiers to being pretty / attractive.  She's a 6 or 7 (on the familiar 10 point scale), and at level 8 a woman tends to be the prettiest in the room almost all of the time.  9 or 10 relates to models and actors, or I suppose also more successful influencers.

She is claiming that the level of privilege, the benefits that come from being attractive, vary by attractiveness, and she broke it all down.  She can get better treatment from people for being pretty, but at those higher levels people give women free things without them even asking, or can get hired more easily, can work in modeling, and so on.

It all rings fairly true.  It's interesting seeing it broken down in such a clear way like that, as those levels.  She says that at her level she needs to use strategies to get the most out of it, because her degree of privilege is limited, but then at higher levels it's all relatively automatic.  She needs to associate with other women who are as attractive or more so to get the most out of it, eg. access to things others normally can't do.

All of this is so basic it almost goes without saying, that the most beautiful women benefit the most from being attractive, and just being above average has less advantage.  To me it's interesting hearing it spelled out though.

I can't help but notice that women promoting all sorts of online profiles tend to gather followers much faster than any other types of interest pages I see (related to tea, running, health, whatever the subject is).  Again one of the most obvious possible conclusions, right?  Both men and women are interested in attractive women, at times for two different reasons, but it could be the same ones, so posting Instagram photos or Tik Tok commentary could lead to drawing 10,000 followers for an attractive woman, and more like what most men experience for an average looking one, very limited interest.  

A very beautiful woman talking about tea online could gain 10 times the following that I ever would very quickly.  

This reminds me of Youtube recommending a video of a woman explaining that she felt loneliness (here), probably a solid 8, if I can guess that number scale, or if it even makes sense.  Or a 9?  She's a model.  

That video has 100k views now, even though that's essentially the whole point, that she lives a normal life, works a normal job, and does some modeling, and her social life lacks the depth she might've expected.  Half of everyone experiences that, or maybe more.  So it's a common theme that might resonate with others, but it was being shown because it picked up traction with the algorithm, for that one reason.

I suppose that human nature always was like this, and it's only evolving in form now because of online / social media exposure.  There would've been similar privilege in the 1980s through 00s, but not the part about being a successful influencer, drawing advertising sponsor support for creating light independent content.  You couldn't record a short video explaining that you are lonely and reach 100,000 people, or couldn't draw an income just for wearing a specific brand of yoga pants.

It's interesting in light of me having earned almost nothing related to tea, except for receiving an awful lot of free samples, sent for review.  I've done some paid writing, and helped host a corporate tour once, and did a little consulting, but it all added up to around $1000, over a decade.  Maybe just over that, and that seemed significant to me, for enabling a few tea orders, even though it kind of wasn't much.

Should I be bitter, or should we unpack this as highlighting something new about human nature and society?  No.  It's very common ground, just interesting for it being so explicitly stated.