Moychay 2005 Dian Sheng (pu'er)

This reviews an aged sheng, a category that doesn't get as much focus here as it really should.  I've tried plenty of aged sheng, just not in comparison to people who have been on that page for awhile, maybe only a few dozen examples with "some age" (10+ years), with perhaps only around a dozen more completely aged, at 15+.  It's not as familiar as young or moderately transitioned sheng.  In order to place this better I'll use two approaches (at the end, easier to scan or skip there), citing review comment feedback and tying it to impressions of other aged sheng. 

There is more to get to related to the subject of Moychay teas, teaware, and a recent book publication, which I will post about.  I was one of a number of final reviewers of that text, which is related to them so generously sending teas to try, as a thanks for that (many thanks to them).

First their listed information:

Dian Sheng Pu'er Cha Bing (2005), 350 g. ($140)

The bouquet of the ready-made tea is mature, woody-and-fruity with balsamic, autumnal and herbaceous notes. The aroma is deep and warm, complex, fruity-balsamic. The taste is rich and smooth, sweetish, with fruity acidity and lingering finish.

Almost a bit general, which is actually as well, because interpretations would vary, and the tea is going to keep changing.  To me that moderate pricing either implies the tea isn't of unusual quality or that demand is limited because of limited producer / name recognition (one or both).  Even though aged CNNP versions could kind of be anything, as that works out, they are appealing due to being recognizable, with older Dayi all the more so.  "Old" is relative here; 16 years old is probably not ready yet per some preference for some styles of tea, which vary a lot by starting point.  So we'll see.

Review:

so dark red for a quick first infusion

First infusion:  I was wondering if this might have been stored so dry that it would have limited fermentation transition, but that's absolutely not the case.  It has the warm, earthy, complex, and slightly funky range of fermentation transition character, and a really dark brewed color.  It will "clean up" a bit over the first two infusions, so by the third I'll see better what we're really working with.  

That flavor that people describe as "like dirt" is present (what's the better word for that, one that Marco mentions a lot in the Late Steeps blog?).  I guess not remembering that clearly represents how infrequently I review aged sheng here.  I paged through his posts to an older version and scanned down to it:  geosmin.  Petrichor is another other cool rarely used term that comes up, relating to the smell that occurs after it rains.  Someone could say that any significantly aged sheng includes that and they wouldn't be clearly wrong.

Beyond that it seems fine, even a bit clean for including that one heavy earthy input as the dominant note.  16 years is awhile for sheng; in a relatively or even average humidity level environment this could be pretty far along for fermenting, and it seems to be.

Since my wife is bugging me about doing an errand I'll try to copy his minimalist review style and speed run a quick 8 or so infusions [which as usual didn't work].

brewing the sticks is definitely a judgement call

2:  cleaning up nicely, right on schedule.  I could do a flavor list this round but it will work better on the next.  Feel has a nice thickness and touch of oiliness to it, and it's interesting experiencing this aftertaste.  I just tried an aged oolong with some of this age-developed range yesterday that all this brings to mind, but I'm keeping this short.

[edited in later]:  aged rolled oolongs tend to taste like plum, to pick up that toffee and warm tone range, but apparently it's possible for rougher-edged oolongs to transition to a completely different range.  That isn't one of the main, familiar oolong styles, Guangdong oolongs that aren't Dan Cong, which can include quite a bit of astringency, which can transition nicely with significant age.  Enough about that though.

3:  this brews dark and intense for using really fast infusions; this had to start out as a powerful tea.  It's really nice at this stage, although it helps liking aged sheng in this range.  It's closest to a quite old 7542 I have that's about the same age, but that had transitioned a lot in essentially the same time for spending time here in Bangkok, which can come at a cost in terms of adding a wet-stored funky edge.  This tea definitely wasn't stored in Kunming.

I feel like I'm just going to jumble up trying to use the standard descriptions, saying if this tastes like jujube or betel nut, or has any camphor range.  Maybe, to all of that.  It is complex.  Part reminds me of an aged wood effect, not like that dry tone in a barn, but the sweet, warm, and rich smell of an old wood shack or abandoned oil barrel.  Having scanned through Marco's 2005 sheng post (that I cited) it's interesting comparing it to that. Flavor range sounds comparable, but there's nothing to this I would describe as bitterness, and the astringency has softened to a rich and oily feel, but with some structure to it.  That initial geosmin has faded to an integrated warm mineral tone, leading towards rich dried fruit, but it's not there yet.

4.  It's nice how this goes easier on the rough edges than the 2004 7542 I mentioned it seems closest to.  This round really transitioned to soften and deepen feel, with geosmin completely transitioned to other related warm tones now.  There's an experience of aged sheng that reminds me of aged furniture, of those rich dark woods combining with aromatic oils used to preserve them, with just a touch of mustiness related to being stashed away for decades.  My own clothing "wardrobe" is one example, but much more novel and aromatic versions turned up in going through storage spaces when I was ordained as a Thai Buddhist monk in a centuries old temple.  They've got some cool stuff around.

That rich and oily feel is much more pronounced, seemingly about as heavy as it's going to get.  That and the warm and heavy flavors transition to a nice rich aftertaste experience.  This didn't really evolve into dried fruit so much, beyond one hint of it resembling dried Chinese date (jujube), with even more roasted chestnut effect blending warm nut flavor tone, a wood element, and heavy mineral towards a bit of char, just not that form of it.

I might not be the best judge but I think this is better tea than I expected.  I picked it because the name sounded a bit generic, with Dian just the old name for Yunnan, but it's seemingly pretty good.  That geosmin / heavy edge would really appeal to some and put others off, but a form this positive would have broader appeal than one a bit rougher.

Marco called that tea he was describing "meaty, brothy," which might seem a bit odd, but I get it in relation to this.  It has an unusual fullness of range.

fast brewed rounds are still dark and intense

5.  I'm brewing this fast but proportion is too high for what this is; I should've backed off that.  It's not as if I've developed my own form of consistent tea evaluation by holding proportion standard across types and styles, and adjusting for that by changing timing, but it's a little like that.

The overall effect is so nice for this, the way the parts I've described come together.  Storage conditions must have worked out to get it to this level; I should ask about that part.  For some fermentation level could be pushed a little far, related to preference variation, into the heavier range more humid storage relates to when a tea has the right starting point to not just fade instead.  I don't think this was really "wet stored" though; teas kept here in Bangkok pick up a bit more of a heavy, damp, slightly musty edge that this doesn't have.  The hot and humid environment here is perfect for pushing teas through changes fast, and it seems to work really well for teas that just need that first 3 to 5 years of change to soften and deepen, but drier conditionsreally might be better for holding onto a suitable tea for 20 years, or that traditional theme of storing a tea in more humid conditions for some years then moving it to a dryer and more natural environment.

6.  it's interesting the way that taste along my tongue stays so pronounced after drinking this.  People tend to talk about throat feel effects lingering, the hui gan theme, but of course this has lost the initial bitterness long ago.  Minutes after drinking this I can still taste it, and the effect just fades, it doesn't really stop.  For someone that loved it that could be really appealing, and I suppose for someone who finds this warm toned range not to their liking it could seem way too much like a struck match.  I'm on the "appealing" side; it seems pleasant and refined to me.

7.  now it's interesting how it keeps evolving, moving off the heavier flavors into a spice tone range, towards those aromatic incense spices that I can't differentiate, frankincense and myrrh and such.  If someone had brewed a more sensible proportion of this tea for twice the infusion timing this would've come up rounds earlier.  This is seeming to not fade at all; quite the opposite.  I am using 10 second infusion times, so "stretching" it in relation to earlier rounds, but this is quite intense as it is.

8.  it's not transitioning fast enough to make more notes make sense, and I'd rather drink a few more rounds without making any notes.  There could be another minor interesting shift or two over the next half dozen rounds but this is enough writing, and those errands are going to need be addressed.

There's a story to be told in why the leaves are at least two different colors, maybe related to using similar material of different years to make this (or different material from different years).  To me the outcome is the thing, and it was nice.  It would be cool if this turned out to be a sheng and shu blend but I'm not guessing that, just mentioning it to add intrigue.

Initial conclusions, and two other evaluation approaches

I really liked it, and the experience had more to offer than I expected.  One part of the range could be interpreted as rough edges, perhaps due to quality concerns as much as style, but to me this style works, and the fermentation input, and so on.  

There are lots of ways to be clearer on what I mean, so I want to compare what I'm getting at to a few other teas I've tried and also to comments in the Moychay page listing.  That second part will serve a few purposes, to view this through the lens of other subjective preference, and also to judge quality in relation to a broader scope of what others have experienced.  Any input has to be taken with a grain of salt, no matter how well informed someone seems to be, until you can factor back out their own take on different teas (preference), which takes time to recognize through examples.

2004 7542 and 2003 7542:  trying a couple of versions of this "standard recipe" type doesn't count for much, since even within a year releases vary (I think at least one of those posts doesn't specify a batch number), and storage input changes a lot.  And versions can "not be real," so getting further would help set a baseline expectation.  The point here isn't to compare aspect by aspect, but to clarify saying that the tea still has moderate rough edges, and seems somewhat comparable in style to a 7542 version.  It had to start out edgy to be this intense, especially given that a heavy fermentation input--it wasn't stored dry, clear from that earthiness--would've transitioned this quite a bit over 16 years.  

It would be nice if I could cite a standard 15 or so year old flavor profile for 7542, an expected range, and compare this to that, but I can't, since trying a dozen versions stored in different ways would make that familiar enough to do that, and I don't remember that I've ever tried other versions of similar age to those two.

2007 CNNP 8891:  this tea might be familiar to many, since Yunnan Sourcing promotes and sells a lot of this same version (at a very moderate cost, still listing for $74 now, which only implies moderate quality level, it doesn't clearly indicate that).  I've drank about half that cake's worth over a few years, but it would be more familiar if that had been more recent.  The character and flavor may not be a close match for this Dian version but to some extent some comments about intensity level, complexity, very general flavor range, and "rough edges" do relate.  I think this Dian version is more fermented, seemingly stored even wetter, and it may have started out with a higher intensity level for being a really strong tea at this age, not faded in the slightest.  As far as getting into aspects more, beyond that round by round description, I'll mention my take on some comments to say more.

2008 Yong Pin Hao Yiwu Zhen Shan sheng brick

I bring this tea version up as a contrast.  I liked it, after adjusting expectations a bit, but a lot of the flavor faded from this tea over a much shorter time period, and under dryer storage conditions.  I suspect that a lot of fragrant, intense-flavored, but less challenging sheng versions would go this route, maybe retaining a novel and pleasant depth, much of it across feel range, as this had, but losing a lot of flavor intensity in general.  Even the oily feel and structure of the Dian version were much more intense.  Of course there are other completely different end effects to describe, combining a cleaner result and different complexity in even more positive ways.  Let's move on to how positive this is, or aspect identification, in relation to others' comments.

Moychay customer site comment input

Picking a few at random:

I have not tried anything more powerful in terms of influence from tea, now this one is the standard of strength.  Strong flavor-aromatic bouquet, somewhat reminiscent of lubao. Balsamic apricot with overdried berries. Deep dark chestnut color. Cook unambiguously.

The Liu Bao reference makes sense to me, but only in relation to a limited range of what those exhibit, maybe more how a feel edge can be retained than the flavor type, or tied to an earthy range versus the aromatic character.  Intensity I agree with, and specific flavor interpretations would typically vary.

Of the peculiarities - the color of the infusion is dark, almost like Shu Pu-erh, and the invigorating effect is obvious, which is rare for the shengs who are 15 years old. In general, for those who like such endurance of the sheng, it will probably come in. The price is, in principle, adequate for this. There is no new Mercedes at the price of a Zhiguli. If you want wow sheng - look for the 90s or 2000, but you will also have to pay several times more.

I don't "get" cha qi as much as many, but it's interesting to consider.  I like the quality reference, how they combined saying that value was good while also limiting the intended meaning of that.

There is a lack of depth of taste and a lot of things, as the raw material is very mediocre, but quite interesting and delicate tea. It's definitely worth a try, and of course the price-quality is normal.

I could see critiquing the flavor, feel (which I liked, but that was a bit unusual), or other character range, but saying that it lacks flavor and is delicate just seems wrong.  Subjective preference changes things, and some opinions can seem better grounded than others.  If they meant that there is plenty of interesting aged sheng range that this didn't get around to expressing, that other versions can be complex but also refined, then that makes more sense.

...The cognac aroma of the infusion, woody earthy, old wooden floor, membrane walnut, oak bark, smoked meats, stewed fire. Taste without the typical sheng bitterness, tart and dense like shu, fuller. Aftertaste, tart astringent, woody - spicy. Despite the fact that this tea is quite old and, in theory, should not be very tonic, for me personally it has an incredibly tonic effect. Drinking it in the evening is definitely not worth it, you will not fall asleep. In my opinion, this is the most successful pancake of all the shengs of this delivery, independent and complete, which does not require further endurance and experiments.

It's interesting to hear flavor and feel related feedback, with some of the finer meaning lost in translation (all of these are in Russian).  I definitely didn't feel sleepy after drinking this, but not as "energetic stoney" as is common with a solid dose of younger sheng.  The "quite old" part contrasts with the last comment, with that one seeing 16 years of age as an early starting point.  Referencing that bitterness dropped out of a sheng that age a bit odd, since it would have to be amazingly well preserved for that to hang in there.

Comparing different impressions is interesting, just maybe not that informative.  Paging through the comments on the Yunnan Sourcing 8891 version I mentioned a running theme came up, that many of the people commenting were seemingly brand new to experiencing aged sheng.  I remember someone mentioning that tea in an online discussion, asking what else is like it but more refined, and better, and I think even as a question that captured more of my take on that tea.  I liked it, and it was interesting, but not refined at all.  This is probably more atypical, a stronger tea, displaying an unusual intensity and mix of heavy fermentation effect with some brighter and clearer fruit range but even more aged wood, aromatic spice, and warm roasted nut.  Maybe that tied back to the mix of leaf colors.

These Moychay comments probably aren't coming from their equivalent Russian versions of Marshall N and Shah, it's from people exploring the subject, newer to it, as I am.  I find such input is still just as helpful, if you can read between the lines and place the perspective context.  Everyone's preferences and observations are valid, even if grounded differently.  It's interesting how most people liked it, with some qualification, and then a couple said more about limitations.  All of that could be explained by style match or mis-match to preference, really.  The tea was pretty good, and interesting.

Comparing two 2005 huang pian sheng versions

Yiwu Mountain Pu'er huang pian left, Liquid Proust right (both 2005)

I see finishing up trying another two dozen or so samples I have around as the last step in training on variations in teas before moving onto another level of essentially doing more of the same.  It's interesting when the teas are new to me and interesting in a different way when styles repeat, a chance to see what range that type can cover.  I'm comparing this 2005 huang pian sent as part of a Liquid Proust set with another I've already reviewed from Yiwu Mountain Tea (with a number of posts relating to different sample sets), so I guess this is the latter. 

As background on the Yiwu Mountain Tea source goes, they are unique for offering different sample sets that cover different ages and types of teas, including some sold as a series of variously aged similar sheng versions.  They also sell a broad range of sheng focused on that origin theme, on Yiwu. 

Liquid Proust is something else altogether.  On the one hand that's a curator-themed vendor, selling a range of different teas (mostly sheng) selected for being interesting, and on the other they offer group-buy sets of different kinds.  I first did an interview post with Andrew Richardson about the group buy theme nearly two years ago (in particular about the Sheng Olympiad), and have reviewed most of the teas from this set I'm referring to over the last several months.

I have a 2019 Sheng Olympiad version set to get to, yet unopened (an offering not sold out yet, I don't think).  I'd like to clear through some of what's around before moving on, so let's get to that.

Review

In terms of appearance the Yiwu Mountain Tea version is darker, pressed into what looked to be a more conventional cake, a bit more compressed.  This Liquid Proust version still looks more like the original leaves.  Since it's really about brewed character I'll focus on that.  It is interesting how much darker the Yiwu Mountain Tea version looks and brews though, and odd the other tea could limit aging that much in a dozen years. 

I just tried a 2006 sheng version I bought in Chinatown recently so the baseline for that rate of transition is that much more familiar.  Humidity of the storage environment factors in as a main concern; stored a bit dryer a tea won't support the same level of growth of fungus and bacteria to convert tea compounds into other compounds.

I don't really get into what huang pian is here since I've covered that in other posts.  The short version:  "yellow leaf" tea produced from older leaves, sometimes referred to as "farmer's tea," often sorted out in other sheng versions.  Using that leaf type input results in a milder, sweeter form of final tea character, trading out some of the intensity and standard character for that positive but more limited aspect range.

First infusion

Yiwu Mountain Tea version left, Liquid Proust right, in all the pictures

Yiwu Mountain tea: In a sense this tea is serving as a comparison baseline for the other in this but I'll review both together.  The character is quite smooth; huang pian would be like that, and dozen-year-old version especially so.  Instead of moderating infusion time and intensity to offset some aspects (bitterness, etc.) this will be about getting the infusions strong enough to optimize flavor and other effect.  It's so smooth, warm, rich, and subtle that it starts to share character with well-aged shou mei.  There's some caramel warmth to the sweetness, and a mild and pleasant earthiness, like a light spice, with mild mineral adding depth.


Liquid Proust version:  it tastes slightly less fermented but not by much, not nearly as much a difference as the look indicates.  Maybe once both develop further that little bit will seem less significant, or the aspect range difference could increase.  It's subtle too, but in a different range.  There is a trace of caramel warmth and spice but where the other was towards cinnamon this is in a more aromatic range, with a hint of that old furniture character. 

Just to be clear I'm usually not referring to an "aged furniture" description as a tea tasting like an old couch sitting in someone's basement, or dusty wicker furniture up in an attic.  I had spent a lot of time in a very old local Bangkok temple, Wat Pho, visiting or even sleeping in old rooms storing furniture and religion-themed supporting equipment that had been around for decades, or I suppose possibly centuries.  More like that, like cleanly-stored, mostly wood, very well-aged furniture, with a touch of long-faded incense spice residue mixed in.  An "aged books" aspect isn't completely different but it is somewhat related.  Both teas' aspects should be clearer to break down next round.

Second infusion

Liquid Proust version (on the right) is a lot greener

Again difference in tea and brewed liquid color is amazing, kind of night and day.  I wouldn't necessarily guess that one isn't really aged as much, that the labeling is wrong, since it could be that different storage conditions cause fermentation to occur at different rates.  This YMT version doesn't seem musty, at all, so I don't think it was wet-stored in the sense of overdoing it to speed up aging, but it probably wasn't dry-stored either, somewhere in a happy medium. 

At a guess the LP version was stored quite dry, leading to the tea not transitioning nearly as much over that time.  Or it could not be as old as described, but I'm guessing that Andrew sourced this from someone who would sell it as it was, and would know themselves.  Without having that much background with aged huang pian I kind of don't have an opinion; these two examples are the only significantly aged huang pian I've tried.


Yiwu Mountain Tea:  more of the same.  The tea is nice, but it helps to love aged shou mei to appreciate it.  It has that warm, mildly earthy, caramel towards spice range, which is only diminished by being milder than it really needs to be.  I like it but it's quite different from most of the sheng I've tried, even related to similarly aged sheng.  One would expect that; it's a different thing for being made from "yellow" leaves.


LP:  a woody aspect adds to what the YMT version is like.  It doesn't come across as young as it looks; it has transitioned to quite mellow too.  Depending on interpretation that could be a positive transition, to a warm, mild, subtle but pleasant character, or it could've just faded instead.  The aromatic spices and aged furniture effect lends it some complexity, but it's complex in a very subtle way.  A subtle fullness to feel and slight dryness is nice for adding a bit more complexity, and some aftertaste also contributes to that.  The wood tone is like a well-aged fairly neutral wood, a very seasoned oak maybe, with the dryness potentially mapping onto a touch of balsa wood.  It's different.

Third infusion

both with a longer infusion time; the brewed liquid is darker

2007 Nannuo Changtai (left) and 2006 Zhong Cha for aging reference

YMT:  I let this infusion run around 30 seconds to try a stronger version.  It doesn't draw out any new aspects to experience, and the balance works as well or better lighter, it's just really subtle that way.  The earthiness ramps up to a feel experience more, nothing close to astringency, or even normal sheng feel-structure, but it's still there.  It comes across a little more as a very mild version of coffee (a trace of flavor aspects commonality; the rest of the brewed tea character is nothing at all like coffee).


LP:  vegetal range ramps up brewed stronger for this; the wood tone seems a little closer to a greener version of wood.  The aromatic spice aspect is still in the background but that intensity didn't increase as much as the other flavor and feel range.  I'll hold off on describing transitions until next round since these variations relate to intensity difference.

Fourth infusion

I like the balance of these better brewed lighter even though "really subtle" is the main description that comes to mind.  Probably infused for 20 seconds strikes the right balance (or maybe 30 from here; these have dropped intensity a bit already), to taste like enough to get it without the earthiness and feel standing out (mild feel, but still).  They don't seem to be transitioning enough to do a lot with describing that.  Even when a tea doesn't change flavors the proportion of what is there can shift, or feel-related aspects and such, but that wouldn't always be interesting to read about.

I'll cut this short since I'm off to a birthday party soon, for one of my daughter's friends.  In conclusion the teas were nice, just not typical of standard aged sheng experience, different in character.  There was a time when teas being this mild wouldn't have been interesting to me but with more exposure the range of what seems nice broadens naturally (or at least it did in my case).  I wouldn't go out of my way to drink silver needle / silver tips versions, or spend a lot on aged shou mei, but at least I can relate to and appreciate milder teas.

I think my favorite huang pian version that I tried so far was a shou version (or shu, I've heard might be more accurate), this Lao Man E origin version from Moychay.  It was quite subtle as shou / shu goes, which isn't necessarily what most shou drinkers are going for, but the sweetness, rich feel, and experience of depth that gave it were really cool.  It was a good bit stronger flavored tea version than these two; aging really has polished off rough edges until these teas are either refined or light in flavor, depending on the value interpretation one adds to that.

Of these two aged huang pian versions I think I liked the Yiwu Mountain Tea version better, but both were interesting and pleasant.  It seems like the Yiwu tea had probably aged a good bit more, most likely related to storage conditions, to being stored in a more humid environment, but not one that was humid enough to cause mustiness.  It's unusual to try a tea and not know the origin location--related to the other--but in a sense it doesn't matter so much, since that terroir input, growing conditions factor, processing, resulting original aspects character, and aging related transitions all mix as factors in how the Liquid Proust sample comes across now.  It certainly works well for trying an unusual version of sheng, the main point behind that particular intro sample set.

Kalani and her best friend at that birthday outing at a play area

that Bangkok play area, the Funarium

pretty cheerful about playing there