Huyen and Seth held an epic Vietnam themed tea event in Bangkok

 

The tea community in Bangkok is really coming together, and the event Huyen and Seth, two friends, just held is a small part of that, and also a sign of how the rest goes.  It was themed around Vietnamese teas, kind of an odd part, since Thai teas are finally coming into their own, but somehow that part makes sense too.  There are a lot of people from everywhere in Bangkok, and cultures from across Asia and around the world merge to make Bangkok special.

This writing is mostly just about that event though.  Huyen and Seth are researching for a book on Vietnamese teas, and this is their second visit here, after also being here last January.  Of course they travel more in Vietnam related to that subject, but cultures and flow of traditional goods mix, so some Vietnamese tea history collects in Bangkok too.  Their Instagram contacts are here, for Huyen and Seth.

beautiful teaware on display in a Bangkok temple; some of it is from Vietnam

The tasting theme was about sharing unique and interesting tea versions, and the background, the context it came from.  Vietnam's story of tea is different from China and Thailand's, but it all overlaps some.

We tried an aged oolong from the early 90s first, representing a critical stage in tea production development there.  As with in Thailand rolled oolong in Taiwanese style, based on plant types and processing from Taiwan, first entered into production in both countries right around then.  Aged oolong is something people seem to love or mostly not get, since it mostly picks up an interesting depth and a bit of plum-like taste.  As a sheng pu'er drinker I'm a bit ruined for all the other range; I can appreciate refined and complex oolongs, or black teas with interesting depth, but I mostly need that atypical intensity just for tea to seem normal.

We also tried a young / newer Vietnamese sheng, and another modern oolong variation, from the #17 cultivar.  That's usually called Ruan Zhi, in most references and by most people selling it, but per some review I think Bai Lu might be a more accurate name for it.  Ruan Zhi is sometimes described as a reference to an earlier range of plant types (with more on that here, and here, with those two posts probably not saying the exact same things).  So it might be more related to the more original Qin Xin range (or Chin Shin, per another transliteration form).

the original plant type table from an interesting Taiwan tea reference

All that is just a tangent though, nothing like a central theme of that event.  And it's always all but impossible to sort out which resource is accurate, I suppose except for more clearly definitive ones.  This set of references is a good example, the Tea and Beverage Station, Ministry of Agriculture (Taiwan) page, formerly TTES and TRES (they rebrand a lot).

The tasting did well to balance background, history, plant type information, ideas about processing, and stories with the direct experience we were having.  Since Huyen and Seth have been traveling and researching Vietnamese tea for a year, or more, it would've been easy to let the tangents and background take over, but they managed that well.

The attendees were one of the most interesting parts, to me.  Because a dozen or so (11?) people attended the tasting divided into two groups, and I heard more from the one sub-set I was in, but everyone seemed on the same page related to really appreciating and getting the experience.  Really anyone at any exposure level can appreciate better teas, but it's also nice when shared prior exposure helps support discussion range.  

A few of the participants were tea vendors (an unusually high proportion), and the rest already loved diverse tea types.  I might mention business links for people to look further into more interesting Thai tea options, related to who attended:  the founder of Qing Fu Cha attended (a Chinese and Thai tea vendor), someone from Wang Pu Tan tea (a Thai producer of great teas), and the Tea Wala vendor (a local high quality Thai tea curator).

We also tried aged Vietnamese sheng, a light rolled oolong very similar to modern Taiwanese versions in style and quality level, a well-oxidized rolled oolong (sometimes marketed as red oolong), and lotus tea, an amazing and distinctive type that Vietnam is known for.  The sweet, licorice flavored taste of that lotus tea was wonderful; to me it really stood out from the rest.  But then I'd imagine different participants would've connected most with different versions, depending on their preference, or which seemed catchy in a novel way to them.

For having over a dozen people in total attend (counting Huyen, Seth, and I) the form and flow went really well.  I've tried holding events before, managing the brewing and pouring aspects myself, and even a much smaller event can be a challenge, with only half that many people attending.

The hostel space they stay in, at the Pastel House, beside the Suttisan MRT station, is perfect for this sort of thing.  Another half dozen people could have joined, and table space would have still been sufficient.  It was a large, quiet, comfortable open space.  If you're ever in that area the roasted pork restaurant right beside it is exceptional, and the Grow Tea Studio tea cafe is nearby.

So is Bangkok on the cusp of foreigner and Thai tea enthusiast appreciation taking on a new, more complex form?  Maybe.  But this kind of thing tends to evolve gradually.  The new commercial tea events, expos, can be developed quickly, and the next post here will be about a continuation of the series of "Taste of Tea" events, with one going on now in Central World.  But tea preference and private social groups transition over time.  Of course all that really started a decade ago here, among Thais.  In an earlier form groups formed around shop customers, people joining related to appreciating tea in places like Double Dogs, Tea Dee, and Ong's tea, a shop that had been in Paragon, now closed.

All of this brings up an inclination to link to lots of old posts here, going on about visiting these shops, going to events, or holding them.  None of this is centered on what I've done or experienced though, and that would seem implied by that, that somehow my experience represents, or even shapes, this local tea culture.  I've just been here to see it.  Shops really support it, and many other tea enthusiasts and vendors pull these interest groups together.  

I'm also not really part of a "tea clique" here.  I was in an online version of one, with Huyen, Suzana, and Ralph; that really helped make Covid seem less isolating, back in 2020 and 2021.  Locally in Bangkok I know some people into tea, and that's nice; it works out without being part of a close circle of tea friends, or some form of networking group.

meeting Huyen and Seth online awhile back

I met Huyen and Ralph first here, at Jip Eu, and many others

people connecting was the nicest part

Free tea tasting in Kapiolani Park (Honolulu)

 

The tea tasting I just held went well, in Kapiolani Park, in Honolulu.  Many thanks to all who participated!  Seven people attended, beyond myself, and my kids stopped by while they played with a volleyball in the park.  We tried most of the teas I had planned to share, swapping out one Thai sheng version for another, and adding some of a black tea I hadn't listed.  Here was that original planned list, in the main Reddit post notification:

Shui Xian oolong, 2022 version, Fujian roasted, twisted style oolong, from a Bangkok Chinatown shop

Shu pu'er, 2017 Menghai version from Moychay

Sheng pu'er, 2018 Yiwu "Lucky Bee" from Tea Mania

Sheng pu'er, 2022 Thai wild forest origin version from a Moychay local production initiative

Sheng pu'er, aged, to be determined, probably a 1980 Thai version from Wawee Tea

I added a Wawee Tea compressed black tea (shai hong), the last tea I've reviewed here, and tried Wawee Tea's sheng pu'er instead of the Moychay version mentioned.  There was no particular reason for the change, there's just something catchy about the Wawee sheng I thought they might relate to.  I'll break down reception of the teas separately, but wanted to overview how it went first, and cover some "lessons learned" thoughts first.

As usual it started late; always the way, but there was a Hawaiian band performance and dancing in a pavilion right beside me to catch.  Using a picnic table in the park was no problem, it just wasn't in the shade, and I ended up a bit sun-scorched as a result, as some guests may have.  All the other details came together, buying some extra cups locally (more spare gear is still back in Bangkok), hot water, etc.  It proved easy to manage, because two people showed up first, then two more, then two left and two joined, so it stayed small.  

The guests joining weren't tea enthusiasts, and had mixed background with tea, but that worked really well, because staying on introductory discussion wasn't too boring for some who had been through all that.  The guests were very pleasant; it can be hard to appreciate how a positive, smooth discussion flow evolves because of everyone's input, but it was like that.  Most people in Hawaii are nice, somehow.  It might seem early to say that, or based on limited exposure, but this stay of 3 months spread over the last 8 or so comes after going to grad school at UH Manoa here, which involved very few negative experiences

That one point brings me to the main thing I think could've potentially went better; I probably talked too much, going on and on about tea background.  People joining might've felt more engaged if they had more space for their own input.  We didn't really get into the tasting notes theme much, sticking with basics, why some teas are compressed, how aging works out, basics of brewing, on main types production inputs, oxidation versus fermentation, storage conditions for aging tea, etc.

Kalani, my daughter, joined at one point to pour tea; that was nice.  My kids have practiced a good bit at home with chrysanthemum, a pleasant and mild tisane, since their mother doesn't let them drink much tea.  I made all the tea with a small gaiwan, which is a Chinese term for a lidded cup.  For a very small group, 5 or less, that still works ok, but it would've went better using a 200+ ml gaiwan (which I have a number of back in Bangkok), instead of having people drink 30 ml or so at a time (a fluid ounce, here), hardly any.  I didn't even include a sharing pitcher in the gear that I used (gong dao bei / cha hai / fairness cup), so slight variations in infusion strength experienced on each round could've come up.

that assistant at a different local park

It went well enough that there's not much to list out for what could've went better, so I'll move back to reception, what guests seemed to make of it.

the tasting set-up and space beforehand

Diamondhead!  none of the pictures do justice to the feel of that space.

a cool stand of trees we were in the midst of

Reception / impressions of the teas

We started with a modest quality Wuyi Yancha (Wuyishan area "rock tea"),  Shui Xian oolong, which only either the first two or first five people tried (easy to lose track).  It's a decent representation of the general range, without notable flaws, and significant roast input, but complexity, intensity, refinement, and depth all could be better.  The basic taste is good for that tea, for inexpensive blended Chinatown versions.  That one isn't really over-roasted or thin, not off in any way, with good sweetness and some nice flavor range.  They seemed to like it.

Shu pu'er isn't for everyone, and that earthiness from the wet piling fermentation, a taste a lot like peat (or even dirt, sometimes), appealed to some and not as much to others.  The novelty seemed well-received.  That's actually a pretty good version, a well-settled Menghai version, from Moychay, and I think that helped, it being better than the rough-edged and limited quality Honolulu Chinatown version that I just had with breakfast.

Sheng pu'er is where things get interesting, because the bitterness either would appeal to people or not so much at all.  And this is also where getting mired in too much background context discussion probably limited more interesting talk about what the people joining made of the experience, what they noticed for flavor inputs, how feel or astringency aspects worked out, and how it worked overall.  I really love that Thai sheng version, but it took me years of exposure and acclimation to like that range of teas as much as I do now.  None of what we tried is really "factory sheng," anything like typical Dayi / Taetea or Xiaguan versions, which are often made from more chopped material, that is often slightly lower in quality, a bit challenging and in need of aging transition input.

The Yiwu we tried later on is better, in a limited sense, more interesting and complex for showing off how some years of age changes things, and in a good place for an optimum for not being a challenging tea to begin with.  Again I didn't prompt discussion enough to get clear feedback about how the two differed per guests' take, but maybe it was a lot to process for them, for going through one type range after another.  They would've needed to either talk through background a lot (as we did), or focus in on experiential range, but covering both could've been a lot.

The aged sheng pu'er version wasn't as positive as I'd hoped, the Wawee 1980 version.  A tea needs to have the right starting point to age well across so many decades, and most versions, even many sheng pu'er versions, would just fade, and slightly odd age-input tastes like mustiness or storage-area flavors could stand out more than positive transitions from an originally very intense tea character.  It was like that; interesting, not really including much for off notes, but clearly quite faded.  I explained how you need a Menghai-type character to begin with to have the potential for very long term aging (if 43 years is seen as that; the pu'er world is so focused on novel experiences and one-upmanship that for some that could just seem like normal range).  It was still interesting, and generally positive, just not including the depth that I'd hoped for, those incense spice or aged furniture notes, evolving positively over rounds.

I wanted to add more on what people seemed to connect with most, but it already seems implied.  All the range of these teas was unfamiliar, for the most part, so the learning and initial experience seemed interesting to them.

That leads to another context theme:  what teas would be more ideal for an introductory tasting than these, what would I have guests try if I had access to everything out there, instead of what I usually drink?  I've only brought a dozen or so tea versions with me for my stay here, of 2 or 3 months.  A visa processing errand will bring me back to Bangkok, either for a week or two or potentially for longer, depending on how job hunt issues work out.  That job search isn't clicking yet; I've had no luck in getting IT services / data center quality assurance / ISO process implementation / internal auditor work to transfer to openings here, but I'm still optimistic.

I usually recommend that people should start on light rolled oolongs, like Fujian Tie Guan Yin (with Taiwanese alternatives often a little better, with careful sourcing).  Or else flavorful, complex, approachable Chinese black teas, like Dian Hong (Yunnan black tea, which is really a broad range).  The one compressed shai hong, a Thai version, isn't too far from Dian Hong range, but it's less flavorful, less sweet, and not in quite as positive a range as more fully oxidized, oven-dried versions in a similar range.  

that Thai shai hong cake; like pu'er, but a little redder

Rolled oolongs I recommend because they're really approachable, pleasant with no acclimation, and easy to brew, in addition to being good at different quality levels.  Light versions can be sweet and floral, and with more oxidation cacao and fruit tones, or whatever else, can enter in.  Lots of sheng is astringent and bitter instead, really rough-edged in lower quality versions, but even the versions I love are surely better with lots of prior exposure.  Shu is fine for a starting point, I think, but then half of everyone would dislike that earthy range.  The roasted oolong we tried, Shui Xian, isn't bad for early exploration, and the roasted flavors range might be familiar to coffee drinkers.  Other versions have more depth and refinement to offer, but starting out with plain and basic examples seems fine.

Lessons learned for a future outing (I probably will do another later)

I think I'll improve as a host if I don't get too caught up in being busy with preparation details and mind how much personal perspective sharing everyone is able to offer.  The most open and outgoing guests, people with the opposite personality type I normally exhibit, in group settings where I'm not essentially presenting, would find openings to share, but that could leave out some others.  I don't think I "talked over" people much (maybe a little?), but I could've been more aware. 

There isn't much I would change.  To try out a different theme it would be interesting to split the difference between describing background (about the teas) and personal experience, what everyone made of it all, especially focused in on people who were less inclined to share thoughts, to give them their own space to share.  It would be nice to switch up tea range but I only have so much with me; I could support another tasting with different versions, but most of the range would be similar.  

I have two more really old sheng versions, samples, from the 70s and 80s as I remember, and either one of those may be much more ideal to show off the potential of that range.  Or both could be quite limited in different ways, maybe really musty from wetter storage input, too heavy on one odd flavor, or from that time period fermentation can transition them to mostly tasting like charcoal.  All of that is why that one aged tea seeming a bit faded by age isn't so bad; it all has to come together for the most positive aspect range to really shine, which is true in different senses across most tea categories and types.

I'd like to close with thanks to the people joining; meeting them all was great.  The mix of people at any given tasting is as much an important part as the teas, the gear and other details, or the host, and it all came together just fine.

that general area, from visiting friends' condo with a view of there

this zoo parking lot view shows just how close it all is to the ocean

Kailua, a more remote beach on the east side of Oahu (later that day)

the view in the other direction, later with some clouds moving through

Anatomy of a failure: tea tasting

The most recent attempt at a tea tasting wasn't a complete failure, because I had a pleasant time having tea with two local friends.  We swapped teas to try, both there and for later on; many thanks to both for that, and for attending.  One was Danittha / Pop (Thais always have nicknames), who I've met a few times now, and also Noppadol, a local tea vendor who was at the two earlier versions.  He sells unusual teas here, and Lamphang Thai sheng versions here.

Related to sharing tea with people I didn't already know, people new to the subject, through social-media event notices, that didn't work out at all.  No one else attended, which wasn't a complete surprise.  It is an unconventional theme.

The tasting I'd set up due to a demand to meet four different people the week prior, for the most part initiated by them.  I did meet one guy, to pick up tea sent by a friend in India, but meeting three others separately within a week wasn't going to work.  As it worked out the two people I planned it with both missed it, and those two other local tea friends attended instead.

small tastings worked at Sasha's place; the "intro to tea" theme was always a stretch (Pop is on the right)

This post title is a reference to one of my favorite Youtube channels, from a guy who breaks down movie reviews as either successes or failures (always with the extremes, right?), related to film-theory expectations and overall results, as in this:

Why Captain Marvel Failed where Wonder Woman Worked


That analyst, who has a really cool accent related to this credential "Krakozhia's #1 content creator," wouldn't focus on the potential social-justice oriented issues that tend to get press in the Captain Marvel movie.  He explores film-theory informed experiential aspects, developing characters, story arc set-up, etc., as typified in another video about why Wonder Woman worked in spite of including one very significant story line flaw.

A concurrent sports analogy

Something my kids experienced this weekend reminded me a little of this tasting event limitation, the "failure" theme.  They've been taking classes on ice skating, after a class series on roller blading earlier in the year.  My wife enrolled them in a day-long competition event held by the Bangkok Skating School, the group that held their earlier roller blading courses.  The one instructor, Ash, is an interesting guy (a Thai from Saudi Arabia previously, but that's not part of this story), who both my kids love.  Based on that alone, and their overall competency, I'd highly recommend that training group.

teacher Ash, Kalani (in the University of Hawaii shirt), and Olia, a much-missed Chinese friend

That event was setting up to be a bust early on.  My kids had been off roller blades for months and doing ramps was proving too much, even though they could do that with ease earlier in the year.  That outing wasn't set up as training, as a competition instead, as a way for kids from different schools and class programs to meet each other and interact.  But then they warmed up to it, and both did ok in a slalom course race.  Not great, not "placing," but they were doing fine.

 I hadn't given thought to them representing Penn State and University of Hawaii (ramp on the right)

WE ARE...

Towards the end there was a relay race, and for whatever reason they had Kalani next to last and Keoni as the anchor.  He was the tallest; maybe for that reason.  It was an exciting race, close to even, with a few falls balanced out by other falls.  Kalani held her own in her leg, giving up a bit of ground, so that Keo just needed to beat his opponent by seconds to bring home the win.  Heading out to a turn at the end it was his to win or lose, neck and neck, and he covered that gap by skating faster on the first outward stretch than the other kid.  Whoever made that turn faster might win it.

He didn't judge the maximum speed right and went off course, crashing, losing the race on that turn instead of making it to a race down the final straightaway.  Heartbreaking!

But that's what they were really there for, learning to compete, how to win and to lose, along with just to have fun.  Every other kid I saw who crashed that day cried as a result, probably not sure if they were injured, hurt, or if only their hopes and expectations were shattered in that fraction of a second.

It had to sting for Keo but it just was what it was; he was under-prepared and made a mistake.  It was a natural one to make; he had caught up to the skater he was going up against, and closed that gap, but was carrying too much speed to make the turn.  He's done a lot of sports for as young as he is, and although it doesn't seem like he's experienced his fair share of victories just yet the ups and downs are already familiar.  Both of them went back to practicing on a second ramp in a different area, until they could clear it with ease.

resting between rounds

My favorite tea blogger, Geoffrey of Steep Stories, would have set this up better, told it better, and would have synced up the lesson learned in the race with the tasting shortfall.  But they were also just different kinds of things.  I did feel some sting of disappointment in inviting thousands of online group participants through a few linked notices (narrowed lots through feed filtering), and not having any show up.  It's hard to place what this trivial degree of "blog celebrity" means (some people actually read this), but events like this clarify that it just doesn't carry much weight.

That's close enough to how the earlier tastings had went before, but having a couple extra local friends as a starting point and a few actually turn out made for a different result.  It wasn't like losing a race, but both relate to dealing with disappointment.  In a way experiencing that race has me questioning if quitting or some form of reset is best.  If the event theme doesn't make sense then dropping it works, but quitting anything one values over a minor setback should be thought through.

I always could've been clearer on why I value getting the word out about tea.  "To help the producers" kind of works, and I kind of just need a hobby, and an excuse to write, but there must be more to it.  In part I want to share tea that vendors share with me to review; it seems only fair and balanced to do so.

Why this event didn't draw interest

I've held two small tasting events before that drew around 8 participants, with that one local friend Noppadol at all three.  That's a reasonable number; a dozen or more would be pushing it for the outing form.  So what changed, or what could have been improved?

My friend Sasha moved; that alone dropped out him and his wife Nok joining.  Now that I think of it prior to any of those open tastings we did a nice practice run, joined by one interesting local guy, in a local Bangkok park, Benjasiri.

Noppadol offered the following suggestions / explanations, with some of this also relating to Pop's input:


Event location was too remote:  this was at a local school and Chinese language academy where my son was taking a Mandarin lesson on Saturday morning.  It's not far from BTS or MRT stops (sky-train or subway), but it still is in an unfamiliar part of town, for many.  It's right beside Chulalongkorn University, if that rings a bell, but I didn't make any allowance to draw student interest there.

I had no idea that many people joined to wait out their kids' Mandarin lesson

Event location (form) is not ideal:  I don't think people were planning to go or avoiding an outing considering this level of detail, more that specialty tea just wasn't something they were going to go seek out.  All the same this was held in a food-court area in a public school and language center, which was quite pleasant and on the quiet side, but also well populated compared to my expectations.  My wife takes our son there on the weekends, and this is the first time I've ever spent the three hours there myself, so that part came as a surprise to me.

I suppose something beyond the school canteen / food court theme could be more appealing; it's just rows of tables, not so different in appearance than at a Tesco Lotus (grocery store version).

with Noppadol and Pop

Tea theme too vague:  I mentioned in an event notice that we would try different types, especially sheng ("pu'er-like" tea) from Laos, Vietnam, and Myanmar.  Pop mentioned that most people who aren't already into tea wouldn't be familiar with sheng pu'er.  Probably true:  I told the staff in the Oriental Cultural Association office--where my son took that lesson--about the event, and no one there had ever heard of pu'er.   At least they had heard of oolong.

Noppodol's idea was that mentioning specific tea versions, adding more detail, like a tasting list, could increase interest.  Maybe.  I'm not sure that a more detailed presentation of rare black teas or oolongs would've been received differently.


Insufficient marketing:  the odd part for me is that I'm giving away tea at these, sharing it, and shouldn't need to push selling for that.  I suspect that's not really a positive, for many, since there is no pre-existing expectation related to joining open tea sharing events.

It might work even better to make up a more developed event framework, and notice reference, and to charge for the experience instead.  Value can be associated with cost; if I were to charge 1000 baht ($30) I'd be promoting the event as worth that much, with the potential for the opposite assumption to happen in relation to not charging.  As a fight promoter and commentator once said (Chael Sonnen, for people into the UFC) "if you fight for a dollar then you are worth a dollar."  A free event could be seen as either not of enough value to include a charge for it, or could actually be selling something, or might be so unconventional that people couldn't place what to expect.


Tea gear isn't sophisticated enough:  this definitely didn't make or break the event, but it fits in this section in another sense.  I make tea in a very basic, stripped-down form for myself, using only a gaiwan and a cup when I brew tea for myself.  I simply don't own the equipment to change that for this type of presentation. 

This is basically a philosophical choice, but also tied to a practical budget concern:  I don't set aside enough money to spend on tea, and don't like owning things I don't absolutely need.  I took up running a year ago, and of course bought shoes for that, but haven't tried on a basic sports watch my wife bought me because I want the running to be about the experience, not messing around with a device to track timing.  I do run 4 1/2 miles at roughly a 7 minute mile pace these days (7.4 km at a bit under 5 minutes per km), typically twice a week, so it's working out.

Back to tea gear, I've seen the relatively universal bamboo slat tea trays sold locally for not very much, in the $30-50 range, but I don't own one.  Or want to, really; if it adds no practical function it's not of interest to me, and tea wouldn't turn out differently if I spilled relatively little and used a cloth or napkin to clear that up.  I own a couple of clay pots but never really got far with that direction either.

minimalist or undeveloped, depending on spin.  it's cool having Keo in a photo, doing what he does, and my wife is never in pictures here.

Gong Fu brewing, backing up a bit:  Gong Fu brewing really means two different categories of things.  One is mainly about the tea proportion to water, brewing temperature, and limited infusion time; this is the sense in which I practice it.  The second sense relates to an array of devices and a somewhat ceremonial approach to preparing tea.  Most of the devices and steps have a function, they're not just for decoration, but essentially very little of the outcome is changed if you don't follow all the steps or own all the equipment.

As an example, a hot water rinse step cleans the teaware and warms it, but that shift in temperature doesn't change much, and with enough delay for other ceremonial steps between the rinse and brewing it wouldn't change anything.  "Tea pets," small figures that you pour tea over, in one interpretation to support making wishes, can be regarded as purely cosmetic.  Maybe the use of bamboo tongs too; they look cool but you can just pick the items up with your fingers.  A sharing pitcher actually has a function, as does the straining step.  Of course there are Chinese terms for all that gear; since I'm not into that scope the names tend to not stick.

one of my first intros to tea, at a Huawei cultural presentation, 7 or 8 years ago

Outing details

We shared some tea; that was the point, and it worked out.  Rather than add more about time-line, or the role my kids played in visiting (not much, although they were both there at the end) I'll just mention the teas we tried.


2018 Kokang Myanmar sheng

Familiar enough to me, since I've been trying versions of Myanmar sheng ("pu'er-like" tea) for years, and I met this tea producer at an event, who gave me this tea in July of this year.  It's a bit bitter, and quite sweet, but on the whole very approachable and pleasant, definitely good quality tea.  The feel could be a little thicker and aftertaste a little more pronounced (tied to quality markers and what many prefer in sheng), but related to flavor, astringency, and overall balance it's quite good.

leaning into the retrospective theme; the Kokang producers at a Bangkok expo this year

I tried to pass on samples of a 2006 Kokang sheng version I also brought to try, that we didn't get to, but the high level of compression of that version made it impossible to do so in a hurry at the end of the tasting.  In part due to that high compression that tea really needs a half dozen more years to age to reach more of its potential, but it is interesting to check out in its current form.


Kinnari Tea Phongsaly Laos local sheng (2019, I think)

This isn't really a Kinnari product in the ordinary sense; Anna, the owner of that company, passed on an experimental local production version from a manual cake pressing training session.  It's pleasant tea, maybe only slightly more rustic and unconventional than the Kokang version.

That type of description tends to cover a lot of range, from a tea version only expressing a slightly different flavor profile and feel, on to one that's bordering on not being sheng at all.  This is the former; it's clearly a conventional sheng, just an unusual version of one, as much as any character can be unusual within the broad range those cover.  It was slightly less sweet than the Kokang version, slightly warmer toned, with more mineral base, not really lower quality or less well balanced in overall effect, just different.

pressing worked out; it's a cool small cake version

Yunnan version:  a tea version the Pop (Danitha) brought I don't remember the origin of, beyond it being actual Yunnan sheng, maybe one 4 or 5 years old instead.  With that as an intro and framing I'll keep the description here limited.

It was interesting, a bit subdued and earthier, much different than the other two tea versions, not necessarily clearly better or worse.  A match to personal preference probably would've outlined that differently for each of us.  Those standard quality markers (positive flavor range, balanced astringency, bitterness, and sweetness, fullness and type character of feel, aftertaste range experience) didn't seem to mark it as much better tea than the other two, but it seemed quite reasonable as quality level goes, perhaps most different related to age range.

It's odd that I don't even remember the broad area; maybe the village name cited wasn't familiar related to that, or maybe it was and memory just isn't my thing at this point.  Have I mentioned that?


Bing Dao huang pian, provided by Noppadol


The name of some higher-demand local tea areas immediately brings up the question of whether a version is actually what it's presented as, and this origin ranks fairly high as this factor goes.  I mentioned in discussion that I've tried tea versions presented as Lao Ban Zhang three different times and can't be sure if I've actually tried any tea from that area or not yet.  Maybe I did three times, maybe none.  One of those versions caused perhaps the strongest drug-like effect I've felt from a tea, and another had a really cool, distinctive, complex and sweet flavor, that included bitterness, and an unusual level of transition of the experience across drinking it.  At least they were all pleasant.

Bing Dao huang pian mini brick

This Yunnan Sourcing reference of their own Bing Dao version covers part of how that goes:


Made entirely from Spring harvested tea leaves! Bing Dao Lao Zhai (lit Bing Dao Old Village) is one of the two villages called "Bing Dao".  There is Bing Dao Xin Zhai (lit.  Bing Dao New Village) as well, which is the more famous of the two villages in the same area.  Bing Dao Lao Zhai trees range in age from 100-300 years old, and while there are older trees we were not privy to that material due to high demand and very high prices.   That being said this is still the most expensive Lincang tea we have ever produced.  It is also one of the best we have produced and if you want to drink Bing Dao tea from spring harvest and from old trees, then this is an excellent choice!

It's interesting that "Bing Dao" means "Ice Island" in Chinese, because this tea is very cool in the mouth and is at once subtle and powerful.  It's got a "creep up on you" cha qi and a powerful pungent mouth-feeling that will stay with you long after your session has ended.  There is is bitterness and astringency but it's never center stage and adds to the complexity of this tea.  One of the more difficult to describe raw pu-erhs I have had.  It can only really be judged by several sessions, so I recommend buying at least 25 grams to start.


That first sentence covers one way a vendor might source and sell authentic limited availability tea that costs below a typical market rate:  autumn harvest tea is lower in demand, and per most accounts not as intense or desirable in character.  Tea varies by so many factors it's always tricky isolating just one input factor as consistent, but some number of autumn harvest versions in that sorts of seems clearer.  Huang pian is usually lower in cost too, tea made from older or yellow leaves instead of the bud and first two. 

The rest is clear enough; local areas can have an edge, a slightly outlying area.  Or different source types can occur within a limited area, quite often tied to plant ages, with ways for demand level to vary by any of those factors, and for more inexpensive related versions to become available.

Sheng pu'er enthusiasts love to finally be able to flag a sales option that can't possibly be genuine, and tea-tree age and low cost selling points for a high-demand source area version are the two main triggers for that.  Especially tea-tree age; any claims of a source plant being over 1000 years old is very dubious, although I take most plant-age claims as meaningless myself, avoiding the grey areas of what to believe.  In earlier forms of vendor marketing that pattern wasn't so uncommon, as was parroting traditional health claims for tea (eg. oolong helps you lose weight).

My take is that local farmers and producers keep exaggerating source stories to sell the tea on their end, and resale vendors either actually believe absurdities or are complicit in passing on obvious falsehoods.  Verdant and Mei Leaf were swept up two of the main "scandals" related to this, with Mei Leaf going as far as claiming sheng was from 1600 year old plant sources, which is roughly the documented age of the oldest tea plants in existence.

Let's check Mei Leaf for a Bing Dao version description and see what they pass on:


Night Forest Muse

This tea was sourced from crazy old tea trees in the hallowed forests of Bing Dao - an area renowned for making potent tea. We estimate the tea trees to be between 500-800 years of age although this is not officially confirmed through testing.

Drinking this tea is a reminder of how PuErh is often judged by mouthfeel, finish and body sensation. The flavour and aroma are complicated and intriguing because of the level of minerality. I would say that the taste has fruits, flower, creaminess and sweetness but this is covered over by a layer of rockiness to make the experience altogether more 'mature'. So lemons become Limoncello, orange becomes blood orange, floral notes become dank, creaminess turns to burnt banana and dark toffee. All of these notes have to be uncovered through focusing beyond the mineral richness of the tea.

The party takes off after swallowing. This tea has such minerality that it makes your mouth fizz and there is a rising sweet and vaporous quality which feels like it goes into your head directly. It is pleasurable and at the same time a little overwhelming.

The body sensation is a potent one. In my experience, it causes excitability, giggliness and a floaty and shaking feeling in the legs with an almost narcotic dreaminess. This is a similar body high which I associate with Lao Ban Zhang...


Where to start.  There is no testing for tea tree ages, although the right plant experts could make very informed guesses, working with live plant versions.  Per some input even taking core samples won't work for plants of that type and age, and no one is going to drill a hole into a 500-800 year old tea tree to check anyway.  For the rest, sure, maybe.

It's interesting to note that both of these are priced in a comparable range (with the Mei Leaf version sold out); the Yunnan Sourcing tea is $150 / 250 grams (60 cents a gram), and Mei Leaf's had been 125 pounds per 200 gram cake (80 cents a gram, probably more before Brexit tore up the pound exchange value this year).

It's very difficult to find an online baseline example of what real Bing Dao is like or should cost.  This reliable puerh.fr reference sets up part of that background:


Bing Dao is now though and definitely the most famous village of Da Xue Shan, but also all the Yunnan and more than 2000 euros per kg of crude maocha (2014) , authentic teas Bing Dao reach prices which no young puerh could have asserted before. If it is less than a decade that we see such a craze around Bing Dao, the reputation of the village and its tea is not new and dates back to the fifteenth century...

...With only a few tons produced each year, the true teas village Bing Dao are found almost on the market where 99 % of what is sold as from Bing Dao is the best surrounding villages , and often not even Mengku . We must therefore go to the village Bing Dao, where cars are searched at the entrance to prevent the import of tea from the outside , but be prepared to put more than 1000 euros in a small pouch 500g of tea , to taste authentic teas old trees Bing Dao...


This isn't necessarily intended as a claim that the Mei Leaf version wasn't "real Bing Dao," but come on, it wasn't.  If it was from a nearby village it could still be exceptional, distinctive, even somewhat similar tea.  The problem comes up that if you buy a tea that clearly isn't what it's sold as, what is it then?  It could be anything.

This version from Noppadol was huang pian, older or yellow leaf tea.  It wasn't so exceptional in character or quality level, but then huang pian is a different kind of thing, mellower, often earthier, spanning a different aspect range.  It was interesting trying it; a nice experience.  Teas having a cool back-story can be nice, I personally just don't spend money on stories.  I barely have enough to spare on decent tea, given how other priorities work out.

Conclusions

I'll probably drop the tasting subject for awhile, maybe until some other external trigger brings it up again.  It really was nice meeting Noppadol and Pop again, and there's no reason why a two person tasting couldn't work out, why we needed to meet even that threshold of three people trying teas together.  I had brought tea to try alone to my kids' swim class a couple of weeks before, and that planned solo tasting outing was nice, something different.

It just doesn't make any sense as an open-event version, since it would take more extensive marketing to draw out participants.  If the demand isn't there then there is really no need to try and create it.  But  I do have a different idea to pursue on how to get the word about tea out.

meeting people this year; Kiattichai of Jip Eu ends up hosting limited notice, informal tastings quite often

The odd part is that I've met so many people visiting Bangkok this year, and have tasted teas at my favorite Chinatown shop (Jip Eu), or elsewhere, with so many.  Beyond that recent tea exchange I've also met an Indian visitor and a friend from Germany at that shop in the past few months, and others from those countries and also Laos and Russia, just between July and August.  The last meeting there with Sasha and Noppadol was early this year (in the one photo), awhile back now, but I think I've met both there two different times.

If I was in a social circle of even a half dozen local tea friends who were into outings this kind of thing would work out.  But I'm not.  That would be problematic, because I need all the free time I have to spend with my kids, who appreciate every moment together.  For many that would add up to a lack of balance, but for me the tea interest works for fitting into a limited space.

All the same if anyone who is local (or not local) has an interest in tea events I started a Bangkok Tea Tasting group to keep track of them awhile back, which others could use to mention their own events too.  That would be anticlimactic if that was the last planned event, but it probably won't be.

later that day; right back to practicing on the ice.  it's no easy life for these poor little buggers.

On tea themed gatherings, and a local one hosted by Sasha

the perfect size for a small gathering:  small

rough version of a two picture composite photo, his Bangkok apartment view

Typically I wouldn't mention such an event, gathering with a few friends for tea, or meeting new people, unless there is a clear point.  I'm returning to the idea of holding or speaking at events, still in the planning stages, and this ties in with what would work for that, and might also give others ideas for hosting small and informal gatherings.  Sasha is this guy; he and his significant other Nok have turned up in lots of outings mentioned here.

As background context, I just took a week off tea, which doesn't come up so often.  I don't think caffeine and whatever else is in tea is all that potentially dangerous, even long term based on high exposure, but I still try to moderate the habit anyway.  For me that includes getting a break from caffeine once a year or so.  It's also about just taking a break, to keep it from getting too routine.  I made sure to drink a decent amount the day before this gathering, just to help adjust, in case this session went long.  I could say more about how quitting cold-turkey works out, or how I use very limited caffeine input to taper off on breaks, but that's all a complicated subject.

breakfast on a Koh Chang hiking day; they had this strange tea substitute

This made for a good chance to meet an online-associated local tea enthusiast, Pop / Danitha (Thais essentially always have a nickname and a formal name), and her boyfriend Yusuke.  Credit for these tea photos belongs to her; I tend to get too caught up in talking to get around to that.  It's an unusual extra connection that she recommended the tea source in Vietnam for the sheng from there in an online discussion, a tea I'll say a little more about here, and will review later; cool how the themes interrelate like that.

In addition to describing the details of this outing this is also about what might work and might not for informal gatherings, for other tasting formats, but still I'll start with an account of what we tried during that visit.

nice and basic set-up, just enough to cover the function, with no extra stuff

We drank a half dozen kinds of tea or so, a good amount, and all interesting and unique kinds (all but one of which Sasha provided; he is good about sharing novel teas).  Those sessions tend to not follow a very tight tea category subject theme and this time we started on white, tried a Vietnamese sheng I really liked, and moved onto some black teas.  It seems to make sense to taste lighter to heavier and those more or less followed that pattern.  Sheng is complex enough that it doesn't naturally fit well into being considered light or heavy, but placing the tone in between white and black works.  Following that pattern if we'd drank an aged sheng or shu it would go after a young sheng, and still probably before black tea, but it didn't come up.

Two silver needle or silver tips whites were kind of subtle (how that goes), and one moonlight-white looking atypical white version was a bit towards sweet and savory, pleasant and interesting for being novel.  I think that I've only ever tried one golden snail black tea version before, a coiled-style tea that seems to more or less resemble a black-tea version of bi luo chun.  It was nice; the character was light but really pleasant.  A golden needle was a bit similar but even more subtle, and a good version of jin jun mei was heavier for having a heavy enough flavor tone that it almost seemed like a roasted tea.  There is no such thing as roasted black tea, I don't think, it was just oxidized more and worked out like that.  It covered a lot of range in interesting teas.

The others present didn't seem all that taken by the Vietnamese sheng; so that goes.  I think I've grown to love that characteristic "more local" sheng range, how Vietnamese, Laotian, and Thai Northern region sheng versions seem to be.  The flavors and style might be a little off what is typical for Yunnan versions, an idea I'll be coming back to soon enough in posts here, a couple more times.

golden needle, or at least that's how I thought of it

unusually shaped black tea, sometimes called golden snail, I think

looks like a Moonlight White (Yunnan version) but I'm not certain it was

a stem-only version I left out; this was nice, subtle and pleasant

Onto the second theme about what works or doesn't work in small gathering tastings, getting back to more about how it went on this one.

Tasting or tea event variations

Narrow theme:  we didn't go there, but for experienced tea enthusiasts who already know each other more (limiting the social introductions scope) a very narrow tea-type theme would work best.  It's easy to compare teas to other very similar teas; it makes it easier to match up minor differences and get a feel for what really stands out from a common baseline (eg. thickness in feel, length of aftertaste, sweetness or bitterness, flavor complexity, overall balance).

Switching between category types moves away from that comparative referencing.  It can get to be a bit much to experience; tasting a half dozen completely different teas in a sitting could easily just become a blur of varied input, while trying that many that are very similar would just be a bit much, with 4 or 5 an easier number to focus on.  If the focus is on the social aspect all that matters less anyway.

a Yiwu village themed tasting event, hosted by Bank (Thaneadpol), on the left

Setting a schedule or conversational tone:  it would be natural to set a very narrow tone for tasting process in some settings, making it more like a wine tasting class.  A central authority on a subject might act as more of an instructional leader or guide.  I wouldn't typically be as into all that; it's nice to talk about other subjects just as much or more as the tea.  Then again it depends on what you are tasting, with who, and why.


In a more social outing when people don't know each other initially random, fragmented conversation can make a lot more sense, which matches up well with not really trying to critically assess the teas, or to compare them to each other.  A local tea expert (of sorts; that's almost always a relative designation) / online contact held a tasting once more along the lines of a wine tasting that followed that premise and structure; everything I discuss here will relate more to themes along a spectrum of a few friends gathering, or something else more in the middle.

meeting a local tea authority at my favorite shop (Kenneth of Monsoon at Jip Eu)

Setting:  this has been coming up as a stumbling block related to doing other public versions of tastings, like that one in a park or in a local zoo.  For a very limited number of people tasting in someone's apartment is perfect, sitting on cushions on the floor in a small circle.  That would work well up to including around a half dozen people; for a group of 8 it just wouldn't hold up as well, and beyond that it wouldn't really work at all.  The park theme was cool for being different, and outdoor, but the noise level in a zoo food-court area for another event really took a lot away from what one could notice about the teas.

Air conditioning is something of a must for tasting now in Bangkok; it's in the upper 30s these days (C; that's upper 90s in F).  I do review tastings around noon now when it's exactly that hot without AC but I've been drinking hot tea in hot weather for years, so it's just normal for me.  The only work-around required is using a napkin to wipe the sweat from my forearms off the keyboard.

trial run at public tea tasting; that guy was an interesting addition

Timing:  tasting in the late morning or early afternoon works, but even drinking a lot of tea in the late afternoon wouldn't match everyone's daily cycle.  We tried to start at 10:30 for this event and of course I ran late; unfortunately that's normal for me.  It might seem like drinking tea for an hour could relate to drinking a lot of tea but 2 to 3 hours works better for a time-frame, given a slow pacing to trying lots of teas, over many very small cups, with plenty of time for conversation.  Tasting one or two teas for a written review can take a good bit over an hour, with some allowance for messing around; the focus on round after round takes time.  I can't relate to the endurance-session theme some people mention about drinking tea non-stop for six hours, burning through a dozen versions or more.


For larger group size:  this moves onto considering what else might work.  Those group gatherings for public tastings did run slightly larger, up to 8 or so people per event, and I've been considering how to go further.  It's way too much of a concession to switch to Western style brewing, but that would enable tasting by 15 people or so, easily enough.  I can only think that having two people pour tea in two groups might enable extending gathering size up to around that level (15).

In theory Gongfu brewing is really about proportion, not the device used or specific quantity, but I could do without ever attempting to brew a half-liter at a time for a large-group tasting by somehow ramping up the same proportion at higher volume to a Western-brewing scale, just based on different ratio and timing.  Someday I probably will try it though, Gongfu brewing at high volume in large ceramic teapot.

Unless there is some formal function demand it would seem like going further to having three or more groups would be too much (but this older 2007 tea blog post covers an event where that made perfect sense given the context, was planned in detail, and worked out).  Even doing two group tastings in one session trades out everyone missing half the discussion and personal association at the event, and doubles up the logistical concerns (gear required, water, setting, matching parallel structure, form, and timing, etc.).

in the middle as events go, small but a little structured

Mixing intro and advanced themes:  this never seems to come up, but at some point it might be a real concern.  Anyone could have appreciated the teas we tried that day but it would seem natural to switch themes if a more narrow-focused tasting was the idea, and to focus more on the tea versus conversation.  In a sense it doesn't matter, but for people already really into the theme and drinking rarer teas the focus might tend to shift on its own.  We barely even commented about the teas at this social gathering, more focused on the thread of discussion, which works for me.  Description doesn't do tea experience justice anyway, it's more something you just do, and I overwork that theme in this blog writing.


Adding background discussion, mixing event themes:  I've been considering this related to doing a health-interest group function event here.  Before those two open, casual tastings I held a couple of more structured events designed to serve as introductions to the subject that were different in tone, one an actual presentation, the other a small-group tasting (in the last picture).  All that would seem to link up well with a narrow-type focus, something like exploring teas from an area, or within a type, to set up focus on the general type, or enable exploration of more minor differences.  Rolling in a secondary underlying theme, like the health aspects of tea, might lead in that direction.  A more set time-table might make it trickier, if the point is to combine tasting and group discussion, especially problematic for larger group size, over 8 people.  I'll see how that goes.

at an expat subject presentation event, more or less

Shop based tasting events:  this always seemed like the most obvious way to work around these issues, to base an event out of a shop.  That would simplify staffing, role assignment, related gear use, and timing, since the location would already be set and time-frame could be an open span of 2 or 3 hours.  I've considered setting this up for some time but haven't just yet.  It's a huge trade-off to just present teas from that shop, and shifts theme to ordinary marketing, and I may never choose to go there.

I've met friends at my favorite shop, a good number of times, so maybe it will have helped experiencing a really informal version of such a theme before.  It's cool how at Jip Eu, my local favorite shop, sometimes the owner will share teas he doesn't even sell (more often than one might expect), so it's not really just product promotion.

Again it all wouldn't work as well if the participant count increases, within a really narrow range.  Back at the outset of planning those public tastings I had thought through last-minute work-arounds for variance in participants (eg. mix in a round or two of Western-brewed tea), but the simplest fix would be to control and limit the number.

a local Seven Suns cafe event; that was an exception

a cool tasting in a Moscow bookstore, with Laos Tea, Alexander and Dasha

always great seeing that baby try it out; Huyen and her nephew on location