Placing different kinds of tea vendors in relation to types

 

Over and over people ask online about others' favorite vendors, and one part that gets lost is that there are different kinds of vendors, with different focuses.  Value can vary a lot, and quality level of tea.  Range of what is available from each varies.  

I'm going to try to place different kinds of vendors by category, mostly through the lens of trying teas from a few sources in the past half a year.  I'll need to extend that, to get to other main types and source examples, because I've only bought tea from four sources this year, that come to mind (online; I keep buying tea from a favorite local Chinatown shop, mostly to give away, but also for myself).  That's a lot compared to last year; more than for the whole year.  Of course these aren't intended to represent optimum sources; they just match my own preferences.

Related to the Reddit tea vendors list capture, the image at the beginning, it's strange that there is only three categories there, for beginners, US sources, and teaware.  That leaves out most applicable range, for the rest of the world, and for everyone who isn't a beginner (although it still probably works for 90% of that sub / group).  It's interesting that one cited source, for beginners, mentions curated tea selling for 10 to 30 cents per gram.  That's something of a contradiction, for reasons this further content will describe.

I'll start with a couple main types of sources I didn't get to, and then move on to examples of what I've tried, and how I see those mapping to categories and other comparable source options.  There are pros and cons of using different kinds of sources, that relate to what someone is looking for, in terms of type / style, and value, which I'm describing as cost in relation to quality level.  

A relatively low quality version of tea can still be a great value, if selling for a very low and fair price.  Of course that's only if someone is ok with drinking that tea.  A really costly tea can still be a great value, if quality level, rarity, and market demand all support that it's worth it.  

To put a rough price range to that anything under 10 cents a gram is selling at the low end, for specialty tea.  Under 5 typically relates to a different quality range entirely, for mass-produced, pretty limited in quality tea versions.  You can generally buy really good quality, in-demand versions for 60 or 70 cents per gram, and it all levels off quite a bit around $1 / gram (which is the first reference to why "curated" tea selling for 30 cents a gram or less makes no sense; you can only curate the medium quality level range for that pricing, which is still pretty good tea, but "curation" implies that it's better than that).

This won't mostly be about evaluating value for different kinds of sources, but as I see it that's one main running theme, along with how good the teas actually are, and how unique the teas being offered are.  You can buy above average Anxi Tie Guan Yin from lots of places, or Jin Xuan rolled oolong in Thailand; this is mostly about teas that are more unique, and harder to find.

Places I don't shop

Online market outlets:  in the past Chawang Shop was sort of an exception to this, and I had great experiences buying tea from them.  Yunnan Sourcing is really the main example (and I've had positive experiences buying tea from them too).  King Tea Mall is a well-known and typically favorably regarded source, but according to some Yunnan Sourcing products may be a little more consistent.  King Tea Mall is probably buying and selling more online, and Yunnan Sourcing would use pretty well established upstream sources at this point, since they were already around 20 years ago, operating out of Kunming.

These kinds of vendors offer everything under the sun.  That's less true of Chawang Shop, but I'm using this categorization in a positive sense for them, claiming that they offer a broad range of tea types across a range of quality levels at decent value.  Here's an interesting in-house Jinggu shou pu'er I bought from Chawang Shop 4 years ago, probably not typical of what they sell, but then I'm claiming here that they sell different things, varying grades of sheng and shou, and hei cha, so in a sense it is.  That tea was unusually inexpensive ($15 for 400 gram brick), because they were selling it before it was settled (from fermentation funkiness) as a special offering, and you really need to hold onto it for a couple of years to get good results out of it.

Filtering related to what you want to find is a requirement, and there would be hits and misses, related to quality level and value.  Getting input from others through online group discussion could be helpful.  In the past text blogs or sites like Steepster filled this role, but now Discord discussion is probably more helpful.  Facebook is more or less dying, in relation to tea discussion, and Reddit tea subs tend to be stuck on people repeating the exact same beginner questions every single day. 

Especially related to Yunnan Sourcing the option to buy at sample quantity is a main benefit of using such a source type.  You can buy a couple of dozen samples for the same price as buying a lot of just a few kinds of tea, which you may not like.  Per gram value isn't as good, but it's not a great value buying a tea you don't want to drink.

It would sound as if I've moved on to narrow down sources that work even better for me, and I guess that's fair.

Higher end producer direct sites:  there aren't many of these.  Wuyi Origin is a main example, ran by a family member--as a frontperson--by Cindy Chen, selling great quality Wuyi Yancha, Fujian black tea, and Dan Cong, Chaozhou oolong.  Usually a source selling a broad range is a bad sign, because then they're typically just reselling wholesale outlet sourced teas, or else Taobao sourced versions, but that vendor has family in both places (Wuyishan, Fujian and Chaozhou, Guangdong).

I would buy tea from them, but I've drifted into preference for sheng pu'er.  It happens to people.  They're a fantastic source for really good quality oolong and black teas, which are great ranges for almost everyone.  But tea that good is on the costly side, typically above 30 or 40 cents per gram, with many at 60 or so.  That's still a great value, given that other "curator" sources would sell the same quality level versions for around $1 / gram instead.  

I did just buy tea from a Thai producer, which is another example of a different form of producer-direct sourcing, but I'll list that in the next section.

Gopaldhara is a good example of a Darjeeling garden that sells directly, both within India and outside it (through two different pages).  Their teas are exceptional; they fit the "higher end" description in this category heading.  There are other resale outlets that buy and distribute Indian teas, like Vahdam and Golden Tips, and those are ok too, but buying directly is generally better.  You can find better tea and better values.

really good first and second flush versions from Gopaldhara, reviewed in 2020

Curator sources:  there are a few different variations of these, and they kind of run together with ordinary broad type online sources.  A favorite I recommend is Trident Bookseller and Cafe, in Boulder.  They evolved to source award winning and otherwise amazing versions over time, to sell in-house, and eventually expanded that to limited online sales.  They don't push to expand volume, to contend with other larger outlets; it supplements their other business themes and income streams.

Value is great through them; for what they sell the pricing is really low.  That's only possible because they're a lot more producer direct than almost any other sources.  In a sense they're doing what Tealet had set out to do more than a decade ago, but left off at becoming just another wholesale vendor instead (which is fine; that's the model that ended up working).   I suppose their business model might be problematic, for ramping up volume and earnings.  Trying to sell the best teas at a good value would cut into your potential profit margin, and it might be hard to really ramp up volume.

Why do you never hear of a source like Trident then?  In part due to gatekeeping; people wouldn't mention it to help prevent ruining their own source.  In part because their existing consumer base is probably limited.  And then they don't use a lot of standard broad-form advertising to help with exposure, as a larger volume oriented source like Rishi does.

Other curator or specialty themed vendors are out there, but I can't mention any related to using them as a source.  Floating Leaves for Taiwanese oolongs gets mentioned as an example, but again I've not purchased anything from them.  A good quality curator source in the US would need to sell at high market value just to profit, so their teas would end up all being priced around $1 / gram, which I can't afford.  In terms of old-school, established outlets Tea Habitat has been a known Dan Cong vendor for a long time, since US tea enthusiast circles first came to be back in the early 2000s.  

An example of an established online vendor who blurs this line, with that of an ordinary mixed-types source, might be Seven Cups.  They started as a Wuyishan area main source, and probably retain that focus, but as I recall they were positioned in between the range of curator (selling the best versions at high cost) and an ordinary source (more average quality, selling for less to emphasize value).  This really could be the sweet spot for a lot of people.

Why would you buy tea from them, if you could get better versions for less through Wuyi Origin?  I suppose you wouldn't, if that were true, and you knew about it.  But they would carry more range, and at some point people find sources they like and stop looking.  They don't always want to make it their life's mission to buy the best teas for the best value; they just want to be able to order good tea for good value.  

Most people also aren't going to read 2000 or so word blog post about the subject, which is fine, very understandable.

Where I buy tea (mostly this year, as an example)

I'll use where I've been buying tea as an example, starting with kind of an anomaly.

Rishi / larger outlets:  I only bought two versions from them this year, Thai and Lao sheng versions (pu'er, if that was from Yunnan, but lacking any type name if from South East Asia).  I kept wondering what their versions were like, so finally just ordered some to see (even though they don't represent where I usually buy tea).  They were ok.  They don't hold up well in competition from producer direct sources, but then that's kind of a main running theme here, that you get the best value buying as directly as possible, or from specialized vendors, when possible from sources outside the US.

They would still be fine for buying decent value, higher volume, broad type range, surely better than the average mall outlet that might be nearby.  There aren't that many mall outlets nearby now, since many malls failed in the US, and Teavana folded (was bought by Starbucks, then largely shelved).  

Some of Rishi's other sheng could be better than what I tried; it probably is.  You can't judge a source or a producer from one or two tea versions.  Or a tea type; you see that happen a lot in online discussion, and it just doesn't work.

Wawee Tea / direct Thai sourcing:  oddly I'm not mentioning this as a good option for most readers; they typically wouldn't sell directly outside of Thailand.  But I've just bought really exceptional Thai sheng and black tea from them, and reviewed both here.  

That's a normal, running theme in South East Asian countries; you can buy local versions from very small outlets, or even good sized producers, that wouldn't be readily available / Western facing, through Facebook pages and such.  

Thailand has two online shopping platforms, variations of Amazon or Ebay, in Shopee and Lazada.  Existing small vendors would often sell their teas through there.  There would be even more such sources in Vietnam, another favorite broad origin for me, so let's move on to a Western facing outlet from there next.  I should mention first that 101 Plantation is an example of a main, high volume producer in Thailand, for buying rolled oolong and such, and my favorite Chinatown shop is Jip Eu.  You could buy their teas through Shopee, I think (both of them), but not from abroad.

Viet Sun:  I've bought the most tea from Viet Sun over the past 3 or 4 years, of any source.  They're "Western facing," meaning set up for international shipping, and in the past for credit card payment use, although they mentioned preferring other payment options when I last ordered from them, just a month and a half ago.  Their teas are great.  

Y Ty (Lao Cai) indigenous village produced Viet Sun sheng (reviewed here)

these are so complex that they seem a little different every time I try them

There's a common theme among new, great value, new format vendors that they tend to sell range that's hard to find at great pricing, then later as demand catches up it's more in a normal Western market range.  Their sheng cakes might be priced from $80 to $120 now, or 200 gram versions for half of that; just normal price range, for lots of outlet types.  That would've been $60 to 80 3 or 4 years ago.  Part of that is inflation, and a lot is demand for that supplied tea bumping up.  I doubt that any of it is them increasing their mark-up rate, although that's at least possible.  People find out about types ranges and sources, then demand increases, and costs, starting at producers demanding more.  Usually quality becomes a little more consistent too, so better value is filled in a little on the other end, maybe just not enough to offset higher pricing.

Hatvala had been the earlier more market oriented source I used from Vietnam, and they're still there, and would still be a good source.  That change related in part to me switching to pu'er preference.  They sell some Vietnamese sheng, as maocha (loose versions), but Viet Sun specializes in it, and seeks out a broader range of perhaps more novel offerings.

Back to Thai themes:  Tea Side would be "our" equivalent source.  Their pricing is probably higher than either of these two Vietnamese sources, perhaps related to them leaning into the mark-up a bit more than is the case for those two Vietnamese sources.  As a unique source option whatever they set is the standard market price, because there aren't alternatives.  You have to by sheng for 40 or 50 cents a gram instead of 25 or 30 if there aren't any other options, or just don't buy it.  Maybe it's that limited production at the quality range they sell pushes that same theme "up" a level, and those few higher quality option producers can keep demanding more, as I said was probably now occurring in Vietnam.

Let's check on that, by reference to their pages and offerings.

These are Viet Sun's brand new cake offerings, selling for $45 to 53 for 200 gram versions, so for between just under $90 per standard 357 gram size--which they don't sell--and around $100 on the higher side.  That's actually not bad; that tea is better than just about any Western source version for $100 per standard cake size.

Tea Side's 200 gram cakes are selling for $65 to 85, based on the first four listings, for 32 cents to 42 cents per 100 grams, or $115 to $150 per 357 gram cake quantity.  Is it better than Viet Sun's versions?  I really don't know; it has been awhile since I tried it.  Maybe only equivalent, based on what I last tried however long ago, maybe 5 years back or more.

For someone less concerned about value, about price per gram, and for whom spending a few hundred dollars on tea isn't that much of an expense, then buying a good bit of both teas would make sense, and comparing the two.  It's not like when you order too much fresh green tea, and then a half a year later it's not as good.  Oolongs hold up well to even a couple of years of storage, and sheng changes in ways that are often seen as improvements, as hei cha do.

To me these types of teas evolve well over the first two years, even for styles that aren't favorable for even middle time frame aging, transitioning some over 6 to 8 years.  You can't really buy a 200 gram cake and plan to drink some and then keep some for 20 years, to see a full transition, or at least if you did there wouldn't be much for either consumption purpose.  

I personally wouldn't age these styles of teas anyway (SE Asian sheng, in general).  I tend to only ever experience such teas as 10 or so year old versions, and we can't be sure that the styles from 20 years ago were identical.

Here are some examples of how that has went in practice; reviewing a 2014 Wawee Tea Thai sheng version, and a 2017 version, in 2023, so 6 and 9 year old versions.  Those teas were good, and not really through a more complete 20 to 25 year transition cycle just yet, so it was early to judge them.  This review covers two 2006 Hong Tai Chang versions, reviewed in 2018, with one from Tea Side, so those two were a dozen years old then, just a little further along.  One of those I own a cake of, unless I've got the version wrong, and it's a similar one.  Not so much of it is left now, but I have some I could try as a 20 year old tea.  It's fine, but it would be better if I was more into aged sheng.

I think I'm really referencing three different styles of tea.  The old HTC versions were made by a foreign (Thai) based Chinese producer back then, and Wawee Tea was making their own versions, without direct outside input, back in 2014 to 2017.  The plant material may be the same today, the same exact plants, but we can't be sure that the style is exactly the same.  Presumably they would've only improved processing over time, but there could've been some style shift, to being just different, versus better.  For "better" we need to include "better how," better to drink as new tea or more suitable for 20+ year aging.

Even if someone tries all of these teas just mentioned, as I have, it's difficult to say exactly what you are experiencing is better, worse, or different in style a decade later.  In this writing in 2015 I'm reviewing 2004 Thai "pu'er-style" versions, again from Tea Side, but I can't place how much my own perspective on the same teas has varied in 11 years.  So we make of it what we can.

Unconventional but standard vendor sources:  Tea Mania is the main source that comes to mind related to this (based in Switzerland; that's different).  

That vendor has shared samples with me a couple of times over the last few years, and I've bought more tea from them than from almost any source over the past decade, probably more in total than from Viet Sun.  Not so much recently, because I've been focusing on South East Asian versions and sources.  The styles coming out of Thailand, Vietnam, and Lao have become personal favorites.  Myanmar teas are great too; I've tried a good bit of those, and still own some, some of which has been aging at home for around a decade.

Tea Mania is one of the best sources online, per my judgment, even if only based on their Lucky Bee value oriented Yiwu cakes line.  Their other gushu range versions are more exceptional, of course, but not in terms of value, of quality and pleasantness in relation to prices.  You just can't buy decent Yiwu at low prices.

Tea Mania 2021 Jing Mai and 2022 Yiwu sheng pu'er

Since the main theme here is where I've been buying tea recently I might mention some tea that's in-transit.  I bought a couple of value oriented cakes from Chen Sheng Hao, after reviewing a cool sample set of mini cakes from them a couple of years ago.  Those were higher end, more exceptional teas, but I can't really be buying 50 to 80 cent per gram versions, so this order was about following up on someone commenting online that their lower cost blends are really good.  We'll see; I'll be writing about that a couple of times over the next few weeks.

Some other vendors have been sending me tea that fall into this range.  By "unconventional" I mean outside the normal Yunnan Sourcing / Crimson Lotus / etc., etc. paradigm.  You don't tend to see Chen Sheng Hao mentioned in places like the Reddit r/tea recommended vendors list.  Oriental Leaf, a vendor based in China, sent some exceptional hei cha versions over the past couple of years, novel variations of Fu zhuan or Fu brick teas; they work as another example.  Or Legend of Tea, a Malaysia based vendor, sent some Liu Bao and sheng to review, and they're probably as good a source as any for aged Liu Bao.

Oriental Leaf Fu zhuan hei cha (based on white tea)

     

Atypical naming stands out about one of those sources; the term "oriental" fell out of favor in "the West" about 15 years ago, regarded as pejorative (as negative).  Here in Bangkok they don't keep up with that kind of political correctness; businesses still use that term in business names, and the average person wouldn't be aware of that change.  But then people mostly only use English as a second language, which changes things.

It could seem odd to buy tea from abroad, in other countries than where it is from, from vendors who aren't producer sources.  But it would make sense to, if they could source better tea than standard US or European vendors are selling, and sell it for less than those places.  You would be "getting in on" lower local pricing in other markets, in this case in China and Malaysia.  Shipping would add extra cost, but it costs money to ship within one country, so it's only adding the difference between that and international shipping.  If it's $20 more then buying at volume could offset that, by a lot.

Let's add a reviewed example of that, from one of those sources, from Legend of Tea (out of Malaysia) to make that point clearer:

Legend of Tea 2024 Mengsong sheng pu'er (reviewed in this blog here in 2025)

This tea sells for 118 RM (Malaysian Ringgit), which is equivalent to $29, for a 200 gram cake.  That price looks like a citation mistake, doesn't it?  3 or 4 years ago it would've been more normal.  Their description:

This year's Xiao Ba Wang is sourced from ecological tea trees in the high mountains of Mengsong Da Man Lü, this sheng Pu-erh boasts a fresh, sweet aroma complemented by the distinctive alpine forest fragrance. Its naturally refreshing profile is soft, sweet, and intricately layered, offering a gentle yet rich tea-drinking experience. Each sip reveals a long-lasting sweetness with a refreshing, full-bodied aroma that lingers delightfully.

That's $50-some for a 357 gram amount that sounds like Yunnan Sourcing's higher end $110-120 or so current Impression cakes.  My review notes adds my impression:

#2:  depth and complexity pick up.  Bitterness starts, but that's still moderate.  Mineral undertone is pronounced, of course in a light mineral range, nothing like in Wuyi Yancha or other roasted oolongs.  Flavor seems to include floral tones, and a creamy sort of feel is adjoined by a touch of creamy flavor.  Sounds like oolong range, doesn't it?  But the feel structure of this is sheng, and the included bitterness, even if it's not challenging...

#4:  more of the same; it isn't changing quickly.  Aftertaste and bitterness may both dial up slightly.  Intensity is definitely good, and again the balance and overall effect is nice, the lack of flaws.  Flavor range doesn't extend to anything so interesting, but it comes across as good tea, pleasant and intense.  

I think I'm feeling the effects already... 

So it was pretty good, which I was characterizing as on the basic side, because I'd been drinking a good bit of distinctive, high quality, kind of expensive gushu around then, teas more in the 80 cents a gram range, $150+ for 200 gram cakes instead of $30.  

I've tried that since, and it's pretty good tea, relatively speaking.  It's much, much better than any standard factory tea; maybe two full levels above that.  I mean in relation to Dayi 7542, and also to many others that don't have the external image of being benchmark versions.  For $50-some for a standard size cake it's underpriced by a lot; from just about any other sources it would cost closer to $100, or maybe over that.

What are standard vendor sources then?

This last category description raises a question:  if those are unconventional exceptions, as sources go, what are the most conventional options?

Yunnan Sourcing comes to mind, but that's only a conventional, standard option related to a category, to what I'm calling a market style vendor, one who sells many produce categories and product versions (thousands, in their China based site, and still a lot in their US site).

For pu'er other main vendors are Farmerleaf, White 2 Tea, Crimson Lotus, and Bitterleaf (beyond King Tea Mall and Chawang Shop being good options, again what I'm calling market style vendors).  They would "only" sell a few dozen versions at any given time, a good selection, but limited enough that you could page through it.  

Rishi, which I mentioned, and Adagio are examples of older form, generalist, medium quality, higher volume outlets.  There's nothing wrong with preferring some relatively conventional rolled oolong, or whatever else might seem a bit standard.  People often like some teas as a comfort tea, or to drink with food, and preferences change over time.

To me Teasenz is a good example of a generalist vendor, based out of China, one who sells a little of different things, that is well-regarded and a good value.  Why them, when there are probably 100 relatively similar outlets online?  It's just an example I'm familiar with, and they've put the time in to be somewhat established as a known brand.  I've bought tea from them at least a couple of times, and it was good, nothing too amazing, but good for what it was represented as.  Actually a shai hong pressed cake I bought in 2017 was well beyond that, this tea; they could also find versions that stand out.

Really there aren't standard generalist vendors, typically.  One builds up an image related to a main theme and type range, if at all (like Yunomi for Japanese teas, or those other pu'er vendors already mentioned).  In some cases they grow to be well-regarded standard options, but more often their businesses just succeed, and they do a little better year to year.

2004 Thai Hong Tai Chang shou, 1991 Liu Bao, 2010's Vietnamese shou

HTC left, Vietnamese version right, in all photos

I'm reviewing three teas passed on by friends in this, two shou and one Liu Bao.  It's not technically shou pu'er, since one is from Vietnam and the other Thailand, but to me it's identical to what is produced in Yunnan, related to that regionally-limited designation.  Others could see that differently.

In part this relates to reviewing a baseline for reviewing ITea World aged teas.  I won't directly compare these to other versions here, in part because that runs long, without informing much, tied to speculative judgment across weeks of time.

I've reviewed this Hong Tai Chang tea twice before, which is a little unconventional.  I tried it here, in 2024, back when I received these samples, which links to trying a relatively identical version in 2015.  10 years changes things, regardless of storage conditions inputs.  Here I'm using it as a baseline, a standard form for comparison for the other two teas.  It was supposed to serve as a way of discerning Liu Bao character / aspect difference, and to directly compare to the Vietnamese version.  That hit a snag, related to the latter, which I'll get into.

Review:

Hong Tai Chang:  it's good.  Rich, earthy, almost oily deep tones define the experience, along with plenty of dark mineral base.  It matches the color, the darkest of the three.  What about other typical shou aspect inclusions:  cacao, dried fruit, betel nut, medicinal range?  Maybe what people describe as betel nut is coming across, but I could be clearer on what that even is.  It could be interpreted as relating to root spice.  This is only the first infusion after a fast rinse; that's good complexity for this stage.

A thick, oily, resinous feel is pleasant.  It adds depth to the experience.  The flavor set is less novel and striking, but it is pleasant, and clean enough.  There's no barnyard range, mustiness, and the like.

Liu Bao:  it's interesting that what I guessed might be betel nut flavor is so much stronger in this; it's more of a main flavor aspect, maybe the main one.  It's hard to relate that to something more common, to explain it better.  It is kind of in between an aromatic wood tone and aged furniture effect, which I think divides into one set of flavors tied to age input and another to aromatic oils range, representing the wood treatment, which combine.  This is really smooth, and quite clean.  A bit of marshmallow flavor fills in some depth, of course along with warm mineral tone.  It's brighter than one might expect, and cleaner.

Vietnamese shou:  there's something odd going on with this.  It tastes too much like one particular range of aged furniture input, as if long contact with a foreign flavor input added too much of an aromatic oil or polishing agent edge.  It tastes perfume-like, in an unnatural way.  That's just a hint coming from it though, not a strongest flavor, but it really stands out for seeming foreign to the natural flavor range.  It tastes like this was stored next to incense sticks.  That may "burn off" over one more round, if it really is from an external contact.  If that's somehow completely natural I don't understand it.  The rest is fine, clean, with decent complexity, balance, and depth.

For using more moderate proportions than I typically do, maybe 5 grams each, I'll need to keep infusion time long to keep intensity up, on towards 30 seconds, versus a more typical 10 to 15.  Of course I intend to drink these on the strong side; they're shou and well-aged Liu Bao.

HTC #2:  feel is nice in this; it almost stands out most.  The rest of the flavor set is complex and pleasant:  what could be betel nut, root spice, and warm mineral.  It would be possible to interpret this as tasting like cacao and some kind of dried fruit, or even bark spice, since good complexity does require some imagination to unpack.  At the same time it comes across as unified and relatively simple, a bit of a contradiction.  All those flavors are expressed within a narrower range than it sounds like they might be.  A hint of marshmallow effect is nice; that's extra range.

This is clearly pretty good shou, as expected (it hasn't been that long since I tried this version).  It also highlights why I'm not all that impressed by pretty good shou.  It comes across as complex but also simple, refined but still basic.  Why seek out better and more expensive shou range just to experience marginal extra flavor, or depth?  Then again people valuing aspects or experience that I don't is normal, and reasonable.  I don't drink a fresh, intense, clean, and vegetal green tea and ask why people like that; they just do.

Liu Bao:  it's funny how much this overlaps with the first shou, but is also different.  It's slightly lighter in tone, and matches the betel nut / spice range, with even more marshmallow.  It's odd how clean this is; usually some residual mustiness comes across in most older teas, but not so much in this.  It's also definitely not faded by a high degree of air contact, although it might have experienced plenty.  Intensity is pretty good.  I suppose it comes across as just slightly more novel than the first shou version, but then the other one (HTC) expresses more warmth and intensity, darker toned and fuller in feel.  Both are good.

Vietnamese shou:  this is cleaning up, but some degree of what seems to be an external incense / perfume / even soapiness remains.  It must have experienced some external contact with something with flavor; there's no way this is completely natural (per my judgment; maybe it really is).  With that fading this much it might work to break down what the other range is without it being present as a main aspect.  

The other aspects beyond that seem fine:  warm mineral, dark wood or even spice depth, perhaps some dried fruit, or one other novel theme.  But the range that I take to be a foreign input stands out the most still, partly for being novel in an unconventional way, along with it being as intense as any other input.

A friend passed on a white tea that seemed to have an even stronger degree of foreign flavor input, which he thought might have come from a processing flaw, instead of being stored in a laundry room, next to soap and drier sheets, as it tasted like it might've been.  This isn't that intense.  It's not ruined, still drinkable, but it seems off to me.

HTC #3:  this isn't changing too much.  It is evolving in a positive way, based on trivial changes.  The same basic aspect list applies.

Liu Bao:  the same is true for this.  Root spice is picking up.  By that I typically mean along the line of ginseng, or even sassafras.  I could also mean that it tastes like other Chinese medicinal herbs that I can't fully place, like a Chinatown spice shop.  This also tastes like marshmallow, so that root range stands out most, but there is more to it, more vague, warm, complex underlying spice tone.  At the same time it comes across as quite clean.  It's definitely one of the better Liu Bao versions I've ever tried, giving up some intensity related to a long transition to this complex, mild form, but it's a decent trade-off.  

Comparing this directly to a much younger Liu Bao might not make much sense; something half this old, or a bit younger, may include more intensity, and a slightly different flavor profile, but it would also just be a different kind of experience.  34 year old tea is aging into a different kind of range.

Vietnamese shou:  apparently that perfume-range input will keep declining, but it won't go away.  It's a little disappointing; it would've been nice to get a clearer read on the rest without it, and to have that experience.  It comes across a little like a flavored tea.  Judged as such, in relation to that being a value-neutral inclusion, it's pretty good.  It just tastes like it was stored near incense sticks, and those match well enough with shou experience.  

What are the chances that this could be a completely natural, but novel, extra flavor inclusion?  I'd guess unlikely.  The range of how extra unique flavors enter in and combine becomes familiar over time, and I don't think this is that.

This next round will do it for the note-taking phase; this is so much tea to power through.  Any sensible person would just throw out the tea, after tasting enough to make the notes, but to me that's too disrespectful towards it.

HTC #4:  not changing much; it's still pretty good.

Liu Bao:  the same.  I brewed this round a little lighter so it may not work quite as well for me, but the teas don't seem different.  I never did address this being lighter in color than the first shou.  Could it be less than fully fermented?  I don't think so, at this age, 34 years old.  But the output could be different based on that resulting from different inputs.  Flavor range is slightly lighter too; hopefully that was already apparent in the tasting notes.

Vietnamese shou:  that flavoring input is easing up more than the rest is transitioning; this is the best this has been.  People would probably be divided on whether that one aspect range is a negative input, or relatively neutral, or I suppose if they read it as being natural it's possible that someone would even like it.  

The tea is fine, at this stage.  It tastes like ordinary shou, aged enough that the fermentation related funky input is gone (wo dui?).  It's just not overly complex or novel.  In retrospect, during editing, I really didn't get into aging differences, or differences in intensity or heaviness of flavor tones, in relation to the Thai shou version.  This review process was really thrown off by that one aspect input.

Conclusions:

This isn't really the kind of storage issue I was trying to unpack related to further comparison with ITea World sample set versions, but this does come up, the theme of external contamination.  

In a milder form it's quite common.  If I buy cakes from my favorite Bangkok Chinatown shop they're usually initially quite musty, from being stored in enclosed, hot, and humid conditions.  That will fade quite a bit over the first few months, as they pick up additional air exposure, since I don't keep them in a sealed room with a literal ton of other tea.  Some of that relates to being in contact with a lot of other tea, and also with packaging materials, with the paper in the cakes, and whatever cardboard might be around, all of which is fermenting in storage.  

We have a room full of old books in our house--of essentially no value; it's a long story--and within a few decades the paper browns, as it oxidizes, and as fungus--or mold, essentially--grows on the paper.  The libraries at the University of Hawaii, where I attended grad school, were undergoing something similar.  In one they maintained high airflow to offset that (lots of fans, in the Sinclair library), and in the other aggressive central air conditioning lowered humidity and temperature.  It's normal in the tropics.  Then it's odd how infrequently that relates to tea cakes growing actual mold, which makes for a longer story.

Storing tea next to something that changes its flavor isn't completely normal, but it would come up.  Vendors and producers try to avoid that, but we hear of lots of cases of extra bits of tea being found in unusual places, in attics and such.  That's why I keep expecting more mustiness to be an issue in these aged teas, since that's all the more common, and why I'm surprised that it's often not coming up at all.

2004 HTC shou pu'er and 2011 Xishuangbanna

 

A friend and I just did a tea swap, and I sent some of whatever was around in exchange for aged shou and hei cha.  So nice!  He is Bruce, living in Chiang Mai; maybe you know him.

One is a 2004 Hong Tai Chang shou, which is probably tea from a Chinese producer made in Thailand, since I've tried a good bit of that.  I own a 2006 sheng cake, or what is left of one.  Tea Side sells those here, an online vendor (where I bought that).  Looking back I tried that as a sample in 2015, and a 2006 shou version also from 2006, and bought that sheng then.  Nine years ago I was not a very good judge of pu'er, and my reviewing and blog writing was a bit rough.  Maybe it still is, but at least in a different sense. 

The other is a 2011 Xishuangbanna version, from Yunnan (so "true pu'er").  Bruce wrote on the label that the 2011 represents a version and style he doesn't like as much, sent for comparison, so we'll see.

Review:

2004 HTC:  it's smooth, rich, and mellow, with decent complexity and depth.  My problem with shou has always been that it all covers too narrow a range; this and the best and worst shou versions I've ever tried are all not so different.  Ok, maybe bad shou really is something else, but it's still a lot closer than for other types, nothing like bad sheng or bad Wuyi Yancha oolong.

There's a hint of fruitiness in this, like a dried berry or cherry.  I'd bet that and going on more about mineral will be the story of this shou.  If you use your imagination it could seem a little like spice, I guess, and that familiar dark earthiness does vary slightly.  This is clean in flavor effect; there's that.  Feel is rich and velvety.  It's good.

2011 Xishuangbanna:  there is something a little off about this.  It has that barnyard sort of flavor, like a scent literally from a horse's stable.  At a minimum it takes me back to experiences with country life from my youth; we had a horse at one point, and lots of other animals were around.  I would go help an uncle bale hay in the fall; there is nothing like that experience, for work seeming like a workout.  A tractor and machine does the baling; the workers' part is throwing it into a wagon, then taking it out and stacking it in a barn.  Those must weigh something like 50 pounds?

This will clean up a little over the next two rounds, I think, and it's not as bad as I'm implying.  It's not good either, not like that really dicey Honolulu Chinatown shou I bought a couple years ago, to fill a gap for not bringing enough tea.  In bad shou you end up talking about fishy range, or petroleum-like character, not just a bit of barn smell.

HTC, #2:  it picks up complexity; that's nice.  This expresses a cool marshmallow flavor aspect that I've ran across before, really a nice flavor in shou, for how it integrates with other earthy range.  Sweetness is good in this, and rich feel, and also complexity, depth, and refinement.  This is roughly as good as shou gets, per my experience.  Then again it's not that far off above average shou either, so if a vendor was charging 60 to 80 cents a gram for this, as they would, there's absolutely no way I would buy it.  But then preferences and judgment does vary.

The rest of the description still applies, pleasant earthy range, of course mineral, and probably some spice, maybe some strange dried Chinese medicinal herb I'm not familiar with.  It's good.

2011 X:  rough!  On the one hand this is pretty good, related to the positive range, and on the other it tastes like the smell of dried horseshit.  I get it why Bruce sent it as an example of what might not be ideal, or even further toward the opposite side than that.  It's interesting.  After the initial taste the shock of that one aspect being so oddly placed in that range settles out, and it's really not so bad.  The rest seems to pick up intensity as you keep drinking it, conventional warm mineral and earthy tones.

I haven't mentioned a brewed liquid color difference; the first is inky, and this is lighter, more reddish brown.  These are both pretty far along for aging; 13 to 20 years shouldn't make that much difference for shou, unless one was not very completely fermented to begin with, then I guess maybe.  I actually like this, once I drink a little more.  I don't think I'd be reaching for it often if I owned a cake of it though.

I drink shou when I fast; I've mentioned that here before.  I've fasted for about 60 days in the past two years, I think it is.  It's a long story as to why; to gain supposed health benefits, to offset disease risk, to increase mental clarity, to adjust for insulin resistance, to clear whatever is stored in my tissues that shouldn't be there, maybe even to offset aging effect.  I think it helps.  Shou is the easiest on your stomach, as teas go, and I pretty much only drink that and some aged white mixed in.

HTC, #3:   these will keep brewing, up to at least 10 rounds, even though I'm pushing them (brewing them strong).  But I'll stop taking notes here.  They won't transition that much more, and I have things to do.  

Actually this is pretty much the same as last round.  Which is good; it was really nice.  I love that marshmallow flavor inclusion, and the rest balances well, the depth, intensity, feel, etc.

X:  that more objectionable barn flavor did mostly fade already.  This isn't bad at all.  Maybe not great either, but it's pretty good shou.  If I used my imagination I could come up with a list of ten different flavors in this, but it's also just kind of earthy.

Later:  trying both again later a dark bread like flavor range stands out in the HTC version, like very dark rye.  It's nice; it complements the other earthiness and fullness well.  

The Xishuangbanna version has lost essentially all of that barnyard note, and a mineral aspect like slate stands out.  It reminds me a little of Liu Bao character, how that can be similar in those.  It's so heavy on mineral in a dark range that it's almost like smoke, but it's not that.

Conclusions:

These will keep shifting, a little; another few rounds would turn up another aspect or two.  I just won't write about that.

I ended up liking the second more than I expected; it cleaned up nicely.  The HTC version was better.  I didn't go on much about age issues in this writing.  Shou mellows and deepens in character some over a longish time, but I'm not sure the Xishuangbanna version will be all that different in 7 more years, matching the current age of the other.

I looked to see if Tea Side lists this, and they don't.  A loose 2006 HTC shou version sells for $18.50 for 50 grams there; not as bad as I thought.  Teas like these can vary quite a bit though, since beyond variations in original character storage conditions can change a lot.  That may or may not be a lot like this tea.

Placing sustainable, forest-based tea agriculture

I've not met up with Sasha Abramovich or Nok recently, and I finally did again this past weekend.  A local tea celebrity of sorts dropped by, Kenneth Rimdahl of Monsoon teas.  I'll say a little about what we tried and then run through some news related to Kenneth.  He's been doing a lot with a sustainable, forest-friendly tea sourcing that's the main theme here, with just a little on that meeting covered first.

a first outdoor tasting trial awhile back, last year

Tasting tea and hanging out

Sasha brewed two Tea Side teas for us, a 1980 sheng (reviewed here) and a 2006 sheng (re-reviewed here, in comparison with what turned out to be a different 2006 HTC Thai sheng).  It was interesting trying two teas I was already familiar with in a different setting.  The second tea is the first aged sheng cake I ever bought, so I have some at home, but I don't drink it often.  It's nice tea.

Sasha also brewed a few nice sheng samples from Tea Dee, commissioned or shop-produced tea versions that represent the best respected tea shop in Bangkok, owned by Khun Zhang.  Double Dog is as well known but for being a Chinatown cafe, and they also sell tea, but no other Thai business comes close to matching that shop's local reputation related to pu'er.  Oddly I've only visited them once, in a location that has since moved (now in Thanya Park), because that shop is way out towards the airport from where I live and work in the city center.  There's a nice park out there we visit once in awhile, Rama 9 / Suang Luang, but I never get my wife to agree to add tea shopping to the list of days' activities when we visit it.

view from their apartment; that's Benjasiri, the park in the last photo

Not much of a review of teas we tried so far, but I didn't intend for this to go into that.  There's more I could say about the Tea Dee cakes but it would only be a general impression due to writing this days later.  They seemed different from each other, generally sweet and floral in different ways, and like quite good tea material.  They didn't seem to be made in a drink-right-now modern style (more traditional instead), but not overly bitter, astringent, and unapproachable.  They seemed to represent tea that could still be a good value even if selling for over $100 per cake when "young," before aging; that's probably saying enough.

Kenneth brought a couple samples of interesting Ceylon / Sri Lankan teas.  I probably shouldn't say more about one that seemed unique in style and appearance since it represents a work-in-progress for a new product development.  A second (green tea, I think it was) was unique for being able to change color, to switch from the pale gold that green teas are to pink with a little lime added.  That transition capacity is familiar from blue pea / butterfly pea tisane but I've not seen actual tea that does that, until this one.  I definitely like green teas the least of any broad category but that tea was fine too.  The black tea version was a good bit better than "fine;" it was quite nice tea, and not exactly like other better Ceylon I've tried in style.

Onto news about Kenneth then, which does skip a lot of what we discussed that day, and how it went in general.  It was a nice outing.  We drank too much tea but I sort of saw that coming and only tried a couple of tisanes with breakfast.

Kenneth and Monsoon update

Monsoon opened a Bangkok branch around three weeks ago.  I've seen news related to that, but just didn't get around to visiting there or mentioning it here.  It's way out in the South-East of town, not as far as Tea Dee, but closer to that than to city center, my job (the main site), or where I live.  The second main site for the company I work for (not related to tea; the subject is a hobby interest) is actually out in Bangna, on Bangna-Trad road.  It's even further out than that Monsoon shop, and a ten minute drive from Thanya Park (but I use the sky-train here for commuting).

Monsoon's primary theme is selling tea blends, with a focus on Thai-produced forest-friendly tea.  I reviewed a white tea version a couple of years ago and that was nice.  Kenneth talked about that at a TedX talk a year or so back, and the Bangkok Post ran a story on him and the forest friendly tea theme. 

On a related subject, I ran through details of a different type of related sustainable-production initiative carried out in Laos in this post (which reviews two local tea versions), with a website of the related participating NGO covering more details.

Laos wild tea, photo credit Comité de coopération avec le Laos website (used with permission)

I have mixed feelings about this forest-friendly theme, and the background can be a bit complicated, so that I'll say more about all that here than I did about trying 8 or 9 novel teas earlier in the post.  Kenneth is nice, and he seems genuinely concerned about that sustainability concern; at least that seems to be a good starting point.

Forest-friendly sustainable tea production

Let's get the reservation and potential problem out of the way first:  this theme is at least in part a marketing approach. 

Teas really are healthy, but when a vendor promotes how healthy a tea is they trying to make a sale based on ideas that aren't usually as well-grounded as they represent them to be.  I think there is a good chance that green tea is good for cardiovascular health, and there is some research evidence supporting that, but when a tea vendor makes that claim it comes across more as sales-pitch than them trying to be helpful and informative.  I don't drink green tea much anyway; I don't like it as much, and other versions would overlap in terms of beneficial compounds present.

Some of that type of concern probably applies here.  A complete critique of how the factors are likely to balance isn't possible, self-interest based marketing versus broader-interest based sustainability focus.  It is possible to run through my take on how "real" I think this particular sustainability theme is, so I will cover that.

It's real, but it's not an important factor if the consideration is limited only to being related to tea in Thailand.  Let's back up and examine why I think that (and note that it is only my impression, to an extent).

This 2008 research reference offers us a dated snapshot of tea production in Thailand:

This 14 year old production summary converts to a total land space of 75,076 rai used to make tea.  That converts to 29,600 acres, or 47 square miles, an area of 6 miles by 8 miles.  It's a good bit of land, but essentially nothing at all compared the land used to grow rice, fruit, or palm oil here. 

Let's check on that and use the latter (palm oil production) for comparison:

According to this reference there are (as of 2015) approximately 700,000 hectares of land in use in Thailand for production of palm oil.  That equates to 17.2 million acres.  Put another way there is 58 times more land in use to produce palm oil than tea in Thailand.  That's based on these numbers; tea production probably has increased, and I wouldn't be surprised if that palm oil estimate is on the low side, based on driving past palm plantations for hours in the South, lands that had been cleared of all native vegetation for that use.  The palm oil production growth and land-use are escalating much more quickly too, since the tea industry is probably quite a bit more developed and mature now, with demand leveled off, making it a lot more of a development concern, as shown by this reference:

That's happening mostly in the South of Thailand, related to what climate supports growth of that palm plant type best.  The general idea is that scale of tea production just isn't on the same scale as other agricultural production, so the risk for environmental destruction directly related to tea farming also cannot be.  For all I know logging impact may well be more of a competing concern in the North than other forms of agriculture are, and land-use study might not be as easy to pin down for that kind of thing.

That would seem to point back towards this being a good story that sells tea, a basis for presenting ideas through different channels to promote a business, but not mostly based on a real issue.  Not so fast though; there seems to be more to this, and it doesn't reduce to only being a factor related to tea.

Forest conservation as a broader trend

There are definitely competing interests that relate to land use and forest preservation; this much is clear.  Destruction of standing old-growth forests to produce tea may well be a relative non-issue, compared to the scale of other agricultural-use concerns, but preservation of those forests definitely is an issue.  Thailand, like most other countries, has set up environmental reserves and protections that tie to a broad range of concerns.  I highly recommend reading this background summary on Forest Management in Thailand, prepared by the International Forestry Cooperation Office, a branch of a government protection agency that also involves Thai Royal family support.  Their summary outlines the current status and goals:


...There is no doubt that remaining forests need to be protected and that deforested areas need to be replanted. Moreover, there is no disagreement that local people must be involved in conservation efforts if they are to succeed...

...Forest resources provide a multitude of goods and services, including pulp, timber, nontimber products, medicinal and edible plants, as well as other raw materials such as rattan and bamboo. More than 1,000 recorded species of plants contain medical properties and 30,000-40,000 households harvest them on a full-time basis. Furthermore, 60% of the rural population or roughly 30,000 communities living near forests rely on edible plants for their daily needs and more than 500 species of these plants are sold in local markets throughout the country... 

The past history and regulatory efforts in place described in that short work are too detailed to summarize here, even in citation sampling format like that.  One general theme meets back up with what Kenneth is promoting related to tea:

...Communities located within and near forests have been motivated to participate in the sustainable management of natural resources through well designed conservation policies and legal frameworks, especially those pertaining to forests, which have been amended to address rapid social change and emerging environmental issues...

...Thailand, which once exported timber, is now a net importer and has high expectations of the role forests will play in nature conservation. Since 1989, all natural forest (25% of total area) is protected by law from commercial exploitation...

...Community forests in Thailand are classified into two types: natural and rehabilitated or developed. They can be established on three categories of land: national reserved forest or public and overgrown areas; land under the jurisdiction of other government agencies (e.g., monasteries, educational institutes, military areas); and private locations.

The first type consists of natural forests where people in nearby communities join together to protect them in order to benefit from their productive capacity and to maintain their norms and culture... 


I'm sure that there are functional programs and other initiatives in place that support sustainable, natural-growth land use, even beyond what is described in that reference.  At the same time the more that minimal impact land use can enable economic development the more effective and functional those programs will be in practice.

One additional context detail:  the tea is already there

This part I almost left out, as familiar ground to me since I've been reviewing this relevant background for a couple of years (based mostly on input from Kenneth, and also other sources prior to talking to him), but it wouldn't be familiar to many.  The tea plants are already there, essentially growing wild.  Tea was introduced into areas in Southern China, Myanmar, Northern Vietnam, Laos and Thailand well over a millenium ago. 

Which forms of the tea plants are the most original and native, and the role people played in distributing them are debated, but the consensus take is that wild forms of Assamica (one of two varieties of Camellia Sinensis) first originated in Yunnan, and that movement of the plants to a broader region was probably helped out quite a bit by people.  Thailand was settled by waves of people from China and other places extending back well prior to known history.

It's really something of an unrelated tangent here, but I'll include a citation about the plant-history of tea that relates, and a link to support further reading:

The tea plant was initially domesticated in China over 4,000 year ago (Yamanishi, 1995)... 

...we calculated China type tea and Assam type tea as having first diverged approximately 22,000 years ago, and Chinese Assam type tea and Indian Assam type tea as having diverged from each other approximately 2,770 years ago... 


There is a lot more to that story.  The short version:  tea plants are there, growing relatively wild in the North of Thailand, almost certainly put there by groups of people who aren't well-documented by a known history (but some pre-history is described here).  Kenneth emphasizes that earlier use relates to miang consumption, to practices of eating tea that are common to those in Myanmar (and in Northern India, I think?), and probably other places.  I'm not sure if eating tea really did pre-date brewing tea, locally or elsewhere, or if it's possible to place the two in relation to each other as regional traditional practices over a long time-frame.

Deeper detailed history aside, what I'm trying to summarize here would seem very odd if the idea was to plant some sort of community farms inside forested areas, versus using leaf material from plants that are already growing there (the actual case).  If these forests are destroyed for alternate use, or perhaps even just used for logging (depending on tree-harvesting process used), many of the tea plants and other useful bio-diverse plant-life might be destroyed.

Onto conclusions

It might seem like I'm concluding that every little bit helps, and that what Kenneth is promoting is one small step in the right direction, joining other government initiatives and land-use themes.  That seems at least partly true, if potentially a bit optimistic.  Not all government programs are effective at achieving intended goals, and I'm not sure how much economic benefit "wild" tea development currently has on such concerns, or what the future potential is.

All the same these ideas map together in an obvious way.  The theory and broad government-control directive requires other steps and drivers to support it; that much was cited here in that Ministry of Natural Resources and Environment summary.  It's not "sustainable" in one deeper sense for only government restrictions and NGO monitoring and education efforts to prevent high-impact forest land use; a positive economic driver could potentially also play an important role.


Is it better for the Thai natural environment to buy Monsoon wild-grown tea instead of plantation-produced oolong?  Maybe a little.  There wouldn't be a significant effect from that personal choice on a small scale but to some extent the small inputs would "roll up."  I suspect that Kenneth and Monsoon's efforts round down to making no difference taken alone, but that all such forest-use initiatives considered together are a significant factor, and one that can potentially be extended. 

To me this leads directly on to considering other factors.  If you buy a tea blend sold in a small tin, what about the pit-mine impact from producing that metal, versus use of some other type of packaging?  The mine for the metal ore might be in Laos, with the packaging production in China, and the likely end point for the tin as a landfill in Thailand, with transportation related impact all through those steps. 

This is part of our current set of challenges; sorting out which inputs and causal connections really do make a difference, and identifying how to maximize the cumulative effects of our choices.  It starts out as simply as choosing paper or plastic bags, or deciding to carry re-usable cloth bags instead.  If one person's choice in some regard extends to a factor of a thousand times more impact than which tea source they choose then more focus is better directed there.

In conclusion, how much difference this really makes is hard to place.  But it is one representative part of a very important subject that does need to be addressed.  Probably palm oil farming represents a real land-use issue that needs to be considered and monitored at a national level, more so than tea production.  Of course China is destroying natural areas much faster to ramp up tea production there, because tea is a much larger industry there.

clear-cut tea farming (but not in Thailand or China)

It would be nice if personal beverage choices could make a marginal difference in long-term land use in Thailand.  To some limited extent Monsoon products represent that potential, whether that is actually the main driver for their sourcing framework or not.  I think Kenneth's intentions are good, but of course businesses also need to be profitable, so goals tend to mix.  If profit is motivating this development and natural-growth forest preservation and use is also being supported then it represents a case of multiple forms of values matching up.

For me personally I try to remain skeptical about claims and background descriptions made about tea across a broad range, but also stay open to new ideas, and remain somewhat optimistic.  Drinking a different version of tea won't make much difference, but helping make a little difference could reasonably be experienced as a positive thing.

Tea Side 0802 HTC 2006 Thai sheng re-review

I must admit, I feel like I'm starting all over again with tea in getting back to pu'er (hei cha in this example; it's a Thai tea).  And I don't mean in only a good sense, although that's part of it; I'm way back at figuring out brewing.

Anyway, the tea is a Tea Side 0802 Hong Tai Cha (HTC) Thai sheng hei cha.  It's not really a pu'er since it's from Thailand instead of Yunnan.  Pu'er within Yunnan varies by specific origin location (most blanket statements like that require qualification, but that seems conservative enough to stand alone), and this could be all the more "varied" due to being grown in a different climate.


But that's not really something I'll address here, how it compares to Yunnan versions, or related to tea sourcing issues.  That last subject and the history would be interesting; there are "old" tea trees in Thailand, although old is quite relative, and dating trees is problematic.


About the tea, even the dry tea smell wasn't what I expected.  It comes across a lot like a shou, too dark, too rich and sweet, too much caramel and raisin range, with a bit of old leather.  But clean; no mushroom or peat, none of that other range that can stand out in shou, definitely nothing remotely like fish.  I'd tried this tea before, a sample of it, reviewed here, so it's odd to be going back through all this, being surprised by how it comes across.




Part of why I'm re-reviewing it relates to testing my own experience against my earlier experience, not that I could really separate out error, subjective preference changes, and other possible changes.  What are those, you might wonder, since a nine year old pu'er shouldn't change that much in the 10th year (or could it?).  If storage conditions had changed over the last year it would be different, and people tend to speak of pu'er resting from travel (seriously).


I've had this tea for around two months so it should be feeling ok, settled.  One odd variable is the tea being sold as either 0801 or 0802, apparently two different but closely related teas, perhaps not identical to what I tried last year, one more thing I won't really get sorted out.

Review:

After overdoing it with a Golding Nan Nuo sheng pu'er proportion of tea to water (a real pu'er, with Nan Nuo being one of those distinct regions), and after getting better results the second time, but brewing slightly too thin, I went light to start on this one.

This tasting is going to have to go in rounds, and more ideally several sessions would be better.  I was reading up and watching videos on brewing and drinking pu'er and a Tea DB video talked about trying the same pu'er ten days in a row to get a feel for it; sounds about right.  I'm not sure if those guys actually have jobs to schedule tea drinking around.  On to review then.

The first infusions were way too light, although still nice, interesting fruit and earthy flavors.  Later when I get my sense of taste adjusted I may well drink the tea like that, but I just wasn't getting much out of it at first.

It's early for a tangent, but related to that, I was just talking to a friend about subjectivity in tea tasting, and to me that means a lot of different things.  One thing is that preference determines what is good; very straightforward (eg. tea can be enjoyed at different infusion strengths, a preference which can change over time).  Another is that one person might "get" a taste as plum and another as raisin; a bit more going on there, seemingly that one person is right and the other is wrong, but maybe it's not that simple.  Or two people might have completely different impressions, and this is where it all gets strange.  Other factors could account for real differences, brewing parameter differences, even using different water, or tea ware.

so much for straining

Where am I going with all this?  One other interesting case--interesting to me--is that maybe I could taste a tea differently at different times, for reasons that might not be so easy to explain.  In that post where I tried to comparison taste a black tea from one year to the next to determine that I couldn't separate the effect of different tea versions from year to year.  Now I'd like to do the same for this tea, compare the tea and my sense of taste, and to practice on the type.


Once I did get the tea brewing--it sort of "opened up" after some infusions, and after I lengthened infusion time a little--it was even more interesting.  It was complex enough that it would be hard to describe, but that's the whole point of this exercise.  The tea tastes of dark wood and raisin, maybe a bit of leather, possibly with just a touch of peat (much as I know what that tastes like; maybe I really mean "forest floor").  Oddly by all that I mean the tea is nice.  It has a cool feel, not a dryness, but towards that, something in the range I'd need more vocabulary to say much about.  From there aspects get even harder to describe.  Even if I added another three or four taste aspects I'm not sure I could really describe the tea through them.


It has an earthiness that tastes like actual earth, like dirt, but in a good sense.  That isn't helping describe it, is it?  It's like the smell from digging up roots from under the ground, dirt mixed with an unusual vegetal smell, heavy on minerals, something different.  Oddly that's one of the smells from my childhood, playing with dirt, damming small streams, or playing in basements and root cellars, out in the woods knocking down different kinds of plants for no good reason (I think the last relates more to green tea range though).  It's rounding things off too much to say it's a taste of age itself, but there's something to that.  Like a really old baseball glove, or at least along that line.

So why do I like this?  Maybe there really is no accounting for taste.  Something in all that effect I kind of connect with.  I think it would work good and strong, since there is no astringency to brew around, beyond whatever component is giving it an unusual feel.  I don't mean unusual as in how fresh teas come across, it's a full bodied and complex feel, just different.  Some teas taste better as strong as possible, based on a limitation from one aspect, and more often a great balance point works best, probably how this one goes.

I honestly can't say if this is a good sheng pu'er or not; I don't have enough background to have a clear judgment on that.  Me just liking the tea is a good start.  It has an aftertaste but nothing too unusual, not so lingering.  I'm not sure if that feel is preferable to pu'er enthusiasts or not.  It coats my mouth and tongue in an unusual way, which I feel in the top of my mouth, but I'm not really feeling it in the throat.  I never really got that part anyway, about taste or feel in the throat, how that's such an interesting thing.

junior taster likes hei cha, just a little

My junior assistant had no idea what to make of it so she said it tastes like flowers.  She's stuck on that.  I guess if I had to give it just one taste description I'd go with old leather, which isn't even something I've ever actually tasted, at least not that I remember.  I'll give it another try before I finalize this, and compare it to last year's description.

Re-tasting, a second go and earlier notes:

I tried the tea a second time, with a higher proportion of tea to water, with somewhat similar results.  I didn't need to keep adjusting time to get some flavor out of it but did need to adjust time to keep it in the right range, soft and balanced enough.  The basic flavors were similar, raisin and date, dark wood and old leather, with an odd feel, a slight fullness and dryness, all of which seemed to work.  It's consistent enough with the first tasting, I just need to get parameters dialed in a bit finer.  I'm sure it does evolve across transitions but I wasn't noticing as much of that as I expected, probably related to still messing around with parameters.

This is probably a good place to check that review from last year:

not dark, not green, in the middle

Very nice; the tea is smooth and rich, full flavored, not astringent, complex, a little sweet.  Flavors are all layered together:  plum and fig, molasses, earthy tones, tobacco, a bit of mineral, maybe something like roasted almond in there.  A number of infusions in the flavors mellow a little, deepen, with some of the fruit giving way to stronger earthier tones.  The fig and plum element is still prevalent enough to give good balance, and the texture stays smooth, with just enough astringency to give the tea some body but no bitterness.


Sounds a little better than my last description, but similar, although that difference could just relate to paying more attention.  I'm not sure what it's all about but my kids are louder than ever lately, often engaged in minor battles with their mother, interesting in small doses but not a great background for tea tasting.


Maybe as well to cite the vendor's take, given going this far:


The tea is made from old and wild 200-300 years old trees. This Sheng resembles a sheng of purple bushes in looks - the tea is very dark for its age. This is my absolute favorite among Thai Shengs...

Dry flavor: Raisins, tree bark and spices. Neat leaves are carefully ripened. The infusion looks like dark amber, it's absolutely clear.

Taste: Full-bodied, very smooth (balanced) and intelligent. Nice raisin profile laced with spicy woody tones. Notes of plum are also present. Velvety and spicy aftertaste remains long after the drinking.


Close enough.  The parts about tea tree age are a bit taboo these days but I couldn't resist including it, and his subjective judgment wasn't necessary, but why not.

Conclusion:

Oddly I find myself considering how much I really like this style of tea.  Usually that type of response is easy to sort out, it's right there, I do or don't.  I had said I did, but now I wonder if I like the tea as aspects and a whole experience, or if it's more about the novelty, since this is quite different from most tea experiences.  I think I like it, but it's not that "wow, I love this" experience people tend to express.

It makes me think more about shifts in preference curve, that idea of people acquiring taste for some teas, as they do Scotch, in the other post.  Perhaps a different tea example will put more context to this.  Related to sweetening tea, I recently commented in a Facebook group that there is a natural tendency to evolve a preference away from sweetening tea, expressed as such (quoting myself, again--strange):


There is a natural tendency to use less sweetener over time, as a result of preference change, brewing technique improvement, and from drinking better tea. I only use sugar in masala chai now. There is nothing wrong with the existence of a preference curve or people being at different places on it, and I wouldn't pass judgment on someone that stopped in a different place.


As for preference shifting from one type of tea to another it's not so simple.  I keep referencing back to an idea I'd read in another blog (Tea Addict's Journal) that people drink tea for taste preference first, then others, related to feel and other aspects next (body and aftertaste), and then effect (qi).  I've mentioned before which teas seem like better gateway teas to me (light oolongs, to go with a short version, but it's more complicated related to better oolongs from Taiwan).

So what about pu'er (hei cha, in this case); is there a natural drift in preference to that type?  It doesn't seem to be so simple.  Pu'er is really two types of tea anyway, sheng and shou, and maybe it does work to say shou could function as a gateway to aged sheng preference, or even young sheng (another idea from the Tea Addict's Journal, but then he says lots of stuff).  But really it's not clear to what extent anyone would naturally change what they like over time, or how exposure is going to work related to that, or if there really would be a natural direction or number of likely stopping points.  A lot of people seem to keep drinking broadly related to types.

Some types are trendy, and expectations factor in, group "consensus" direction.  One could find justification to continue to prefer pu'er or oolong in tea groups, and might feel a bit marginalized if black tea seemed best for some reason (or green; both don't get much respect--individual teas can by the types sort of don't).  White teas are different, held in higher regard, fine to cite as a favorite type, but it would seem strange if someone just drank white teas.  For now I'll stay on the same path, trying a broad range of teas, but this is an interesting way to evaluate preference shift, by experimenting with one type I'm not so attached to.