Sheng Olympiad 2016 Huang Chen Hao Lao Man E

I'm reviewing the third of a Liquid Proust (vendor) "Sheng Olympiad" set sample, with two more to go.

I'll look up his description (Andrew Richardson's, that vendor) during the final edit, but will go into this with only expectations related to the source area and age.  Lao Man E region versions are known for characteristic bitterness.  Both bitterness and astringency can fade and transition over time, with the pace depending on storage conditions, so I'd expect character to have mellowed some over 4 years.  At this point it almost goes without saying that different sheng versions are most positive after different storage time periods, or interesting in different ways, so this being 4 years old doesn't necessarily mean any one thing.

The leaf looks pretty good, on the whole side.  It's browner than some typically are; no further observation related to that.


~16 2016 LaoManE from Huang Chen Hao: this has been in my top five for some time. Between the slight Malaysian storage, taste, and visual leaf I was quite please... but the real kicker about this is the qi. I consistently feel come alive within me when I drink it. Truly a special treat.

I don't really "get" cha qi so that part won't work, but I could still appreciate it on other levels.

It's interesting hearing about "slight Malaysian" storage, especially since I already wrote the notes.  I'd assume that means Malaysian stored, but interpreted as not as wet-stored as can be a common theme from there.  The character seemed to match up with that.

Review:

First infusion:  I let this go a little long (about 15 seconds) to avoid the round where I say "I'll know better next round."  That is a nice way to experience a sheng, to let the first round be just an initial glimpse, but time is a bit short due to us travelling later this morning.  And the chaos level in the house is at upper-medium, even less ideal.

This is nice.  Bitterness does stand out as a main part of the experience but not a blast that overtakes the rest.  Some pleasant warm flavor aspects join that, towards spice, with the feel standing out just as much, a rich fullness.  There's one characteristic feel that this matches that I won't be able to do justice to describing.  "Structured" is completely wrong, but saying "full and rich" sounds more like oolong thickness to me.  It's like the way a butterscotch candy has a feel to it, a thickness, along with that characteristic flavor.

I could do with this bitterness being a little more subdued and balanced but for this being a Lao Man E it's quite moderate and integrated; younger versions tend to express a real blast of bitterness.  The rest of this post will probably keep going on about other supporting aspects, since the complexity of this is good, and the sweetness and other flavor range isn't really caught by saying "towards spice."

Second infusion:  This round I brewed for around 10 seconds, versus a more conventional 6 to 8, that I use along with a typical high proportion (typical for me), due to messing around instead of that being intentional.  Next round I'll keep it moderate and describe how that changes things.

The complexity of this is really positive.  Feel has a lot going on, and flavor extends to lots of layers beyond the bitterness, which is a bit softer and warmer in tone than it would be in any younger version.  This tea is in a decent place.  It would be interesting to try it in another 10 years since it seems to have great potential to go to a really interesting and pleasant place later. 

That spice range seems to cover both a relatively neutral root spice effect and a hint towards a more warm aromatic bark spice.  Bitterness is right in between throwing off the balance of that other effect and complementing it.  Feel stands out a lot.  Brewing this light should make it easier to sort out flavor, and to experience this at more of an optimum.

Third infusion:  slightly more pleasant, but then it was nice brewed a little stronger than I like too.  Bitterness doesn't fade in proportion drinking it this way; if anything it might stand out a little more.  I like bitter sheng, to some degree, where 4 years ago this would just taste like taking an aspirin to me.  It sort of still does, but I guess I would enjoy the taste of aspirin more now too.  Especially if it had a nice body and some spice tones to go along with that.  I'll get around to a more complete aspect-list description version next round.

Fourth infusion:  this is leveling off a bit, falling into a more uniform balance.  That thick smoothness stays as pronounced as ever but bitterness fades a little.  Then again the warm spice tone seems a little more muted too, so that might just relate to using fast infusions the last two rounds.  I like the balance, where this is.  I've got another sheng version that's pretty close to this, I just forget which one, I think one of those 2015 or 2016 sheng versions that I bought from Chawang Shop.

I can't really guess at what storage input was for this, given I don't know the starting point character, and it's only four years old [although the description did say "slight Malaysian"].  It probably wasn't really dry; this seems to have had time to change some, and Kunming storage (where Chawang Shop is based) is good for preserving the original nature of teas, of stopping them from changing much.  Then again it could be that; what do I know. 

I'd have expected Bangkok storage, the hot and really humid range, to have caused even more change, even without knowing the starting point.  It's great for moving things along a bit for fermentation level but perhaps not ideal for some teas for storage over 10 years, leading to less than ideal character.  Of course that would depend on the tea; for something that needs a lot of transition, like a Xiaguan tuocha, hot and humid conditions may be great, but for more subtle sheng that need to evolve and transition less dramatically maybe not so much.


Fifth infusion:  maybe the best round so far, but then maybe I've just let screwing up infusion times drop for a round.  The bitterness is balanced, integrated.  That warm spice tone range seems to merge with a warm underlying mineral range now, something I've described as towards iron bar or natural artesian spring in the past (two different things, but they overlap).  The part that works best is how well the different components balance each other; it will be hard for that to come across in a list-style description.  Even that feel is part of that, and the aftertaste experience adds to it, an extra dimension coming after. 

Complexity is hard to describe too, how bitterness, warm tones, some cured wood, even pleasant and rich floral range all merge in this.  It's better tea than I often drink, probably not on a quality level I've never experienced, but it doesn't suffer from the limitations I usually experience due to buying relatively inexpensive tea versions.

Sixth infusion:  this house has went quiet due to my wife and son running one last errand before our trip but I'll still need to wrap this up.  It must have another half dozen very positive infusions to go, with all of those telling a transition cycle story, but it's not a story I'll get around to telling.

It's interesting how this is a bit neutral in flavor tone in one sense and very complex in another.  More aged tea versions tend to land on that type of character sometimes, more so than a four year old tea version.  Really bitterness is still present, just very moderate compared to the first three or four infusions, and there's a lot going on still, but intensity seemed to have dropped way off in comparison with how this was.  It's interesting how benchmarks or expectations can slide like that, how a really good tea isn't that great if you drank an even better one just before, or it could seem amazing if you'd been on plain teas for awhile.  The same applies for novelty, and so on.

Aromatic wood tone along the line of cedar is picking up in proportion.  Maybe this would be better if the bark spice range had increased instead of the root spice (which is much closer to that wood tone, an overlapping effect), but to me it's still quite pleasant.  A mild floral range and good balancing sweetness gives it a full effect related to flavor, and feel range more than carries its weight, a very positive aspect range in this tea.


Seventh infusion:  more of the same.  I'll let this drop and try to enjoy rushing through another half dozen rounds, versus rambling on or trying to pick apart minor changes.

This tea was very pleasant, quite well balanced, complex, interesting in style, and obviously positive for quality level.  Over the next two years or so this would retain a similar positive nature, but it may well really shine with another decade of transition letting those changes run their course.  I suppose I'll never know.  It was really nice to experience as it is now, the general idea behind sheng tasting sets.

I don't have much for conclusions so I'll skip even adding a section for that.  It seemed relatively far along for fermentation for being four years old, but not so extreme that it was necessarily wet-stored, so pretty much as described.


That trip I mentioned delayed for a day, for a strange reason.  I was cleaning the cat litter boxes before the trip and accidentally set one of them loose while doing it, outside running around, probably not to return until later in the day.  At least I'm doing some extra down-time as a result, while my wife takes the kids to clear some errands.  I could use the day for recovery from re-starting running a few weeks ago, and yoga in the past week. 

I've been considering breaking form and writing here about yoga.  It's interesting trying a sports-oriented activity (maybe yoga isn't really a sport) that you aren't good at, not normally how such things tend to go.  Then again restarting running after a very long time off was a bit rough too (not this recent time; I just took a couple months off to let my knee heal up).  And people look silly when they first start lifting weights, and so on.  I guess it's just normal.

first day of school this past week

showing off a new hair length

Water type experiments, with Wuyi Origins Rou Gui and KTM Lao Man E sheng

This is all a bit much.  I've been meaning to test the effect of using different water versions on tea for awhile, it was just always too much messing around to get to it.  Now that I finally did results were interesting, but one part related to sample type selection could have went better.

In retrospect it was odd using teas I hadn't reviewed before, and teas of this quality level for this purpose.  Cindy's Wuyi Origin Rou Gui versions are about as good as that type ever gets, and the fruitier version is a strong contender for my favorite tea among all types and versions.  I guess the reasoning was that using good tea is going to tell more of the story related to what input the water has, versus using teas that are of medium quality, and trying to extrapolate results to likely outcome if the teas had been better.  It was also about just using interesting versions that I had around.

The same concern and atypical theme applies for the King Tea Mall Lao Man E sample; this is a gushu version from a respected, in demand origin area.  It's questionable judgement, shifting focus off the tea onto the effect water mineral content variation has on preparing it.  One might argue that both can be covered at the same time, but per the actual experience a lot gets lost.

About water type / input testing in general, it had always seemed next to impossible to identify what a really good or ideal source of water would be.  Really doing that process justice would involve trying lots of water types, and then probably folding in how that varies across at least a few different tea types.  Online discussions of water mineral levels as an input have been interesting, and standard patterns of opinions do emerge, but nothing that works well as starting point guidance. 

Avoiding high levels of calcium is generally advocated, for example, but my own interpretation of what would be low, medium, and high based on sampling lots of hearsay may or may not be remotely reliable.  I mentioned some advice passed on by Peter Jones in covering some theory in this post, which was really about trying a Myanmar Kokang shu version:

We are still several months away from any conclusions. But basically you want your alkalinity to be 1/2 your total hardness, a pH in the 7s, and a balance of 2/1 of Ca to Mg. The other positive ion mineral salts also play a role in extraction...

The form I finally arrived on--definitely not a final word on a practical, functional approach--was to try two completely different teas using Volvic water (which gets mentioned as some people's personal favorite), compared to the filtered local Bangkok tap water I use at home.  It was a stretch but I picked two relatively random, opposite type teas I happened to have on hand, a Rou Gui and a sheng pu'er.  It turned out to be not the best selection because I didn't factor in the high level of bitterness in the sheng version (a Lao Man E); kind of an obvious mistake to make, in retrospect.  Trying an already familiar, milder version would've made a lot more sense.

I can't describe what the local water is like in relation to lots of other sources, but of course I have tried the same teas prepared using it and also other spring water, RO water, and whatever is being used in other places.  My friend Sasha had a favorite spring water he used, for example, and some of those teas I had tried at home, a number of versions tasted there many times.  A vendor at an expo had been using RO water, and I re-tasted the same teas I tried with them again at home within a couple of days, and I try teas in shops sometimes.  To really isolate differences trying the tea prepared together is all but essential; the point here is that how differences in water source work out in general, and how the local water compares, isn't completely unfamiliar.

Bangkok municipal water had been truly awful, years back.  It varied so much even the color and smell could be off.  We used bottled spring water for years, or at least local water sold as such, which really could be different things.  As of a few years ago we switched over to using a multi-stage filtration system, and the water seems fine.  Per online hearsay the tap water here is based on rainwater sources instead of natural spring origin, so it's low in mineral content, which makes sense given that it rains a lot and we're not exactly near a mountainous or even hilly area.  Per other hearsay local distribution systems are a main problem for water quality, the pipes from there to houses, not so much what the processing centers put out, or even use of old pipes in your house.  It probably helps to live right beside one of the main Royal palaces in Bangkok as we do; infrastructure seems pretty stable and well maintained.

One might expect the water quality and mineral contents to vary based on lots of local factors, and I'm not certain that it doesn't.  I've included a number of captures from the local Bangkok real-time water quality monitoring system, from when I tried these teas, but of course those don't include a measurement of contents broken out by mineral grams / liter at any given time.

It would make the most sense to run this type of comparison multiple times, evaluating tea types one at a time.  I didn't do that, I tried two types together.  That I still don't consider a mistake; I've been training to do comparisons that make sense, or else those that don't instead, for about three years now.  I've tried hundreds of teas over uncountable combined tasting sessions.  It's familiar ground.  If someone without that odd tasting habit wanted to get the clearest results I'd definitely recommend using the more intuitive approach, trying the teas one at a time, perhaps using 3 or 4 types of water to add review complexity.  Selecting mild, well-known versions of teas would probably work best, regardless of type; that part was a mistake.

I'll probably try this again with a rolled oolong version to see how it works with a very mild but complex tea, which should also help to isolate feel effect even better.

Review, comparison of Wuyi Origins Rou Gui with two water types:

Rou Gui with Volvic:  just amazing tea!  I'm not sure if that's the water though.  This didn't say if it was fruity type or cinnamon Rou Gui but judging from the heavy, warm cinnamon taste it's that.  Flavor is intense, feel is thick, level of roast is perfect, slightly noticeable but only complimentary.

Rou Gui with filtered tap water:  this is similar but the flavor may pop a little less.  It seems to be drawing out a lightly different vegetal note, as if the warm mineral resembles celery just a little.  Cinnamon is slightly flattened out.  This difference is so minor that tasting across different times it wouldn't really stand out as much, but side by side it does quite a bit.  Sweetness is down just a little too.  It's the same great tea, almost the same flavor profile and feel, just a little different.

an early round; color differences didn't seem to tell a lot of story, so I'll pass on adding more about that

Second infusion:

Rou Gui with Volvic:  this tea is just perfect as cinnamon intensive Rou Gui goes.  The balance, intensity, all the profile taken together; this is it.  The cinnamon part really jumps out.  It's warm and rich, almost connecting a little with a very subtle roast level, or maybe it only seems that way.

Rou Gui with tap water:  it's almost the same experience but it is missing some of the one high point that makes the other tea experience so special, the brightness, sharpness, and intensity of that cinnamon flavor.  The deeper tones and supporting elements carry across fairly well; fullness and body isn't bad, kind of similar.  The first version might have a slightly heavier, oilier feel, which is more positive.  It's a quite similar tea experience but funny how those parts that seem most interesting and critical are what flattens out.


It's too early for conclusions but the results already seem clear enough; this local water doesn't work as well.  I don't foresee buying bottled water to drink tea with though.  I wouldn't throw out a few large plastic bottles a week to get this effect difference, or probably even one 1.5 liter bottle a week to review using a different version.  It's a shame the local water isn't better but adding expense and impacting the environment to drink slightly different versions of tea isn't going to work out.  Maybe a charcoal treatment effect will help; that idea comes up a lot.

Later edit:  it was too early for conclusions; the opposite kind of trend turned up in the fourth and fifth infusions, a trend that was much more pronounced in the sheng version.

Third infusion:

Rou Gui with Volvic:  This tea is probably evolving a bit in character but I've lost track of clear prior impression to describe that.  It's still great, probably with a slightly shifted balance of aspects.

Rou Gui with tap water:  it's great with this water too, with less difference standing out than had initially.  It's still not quite as intense, giving up just a little sweetness, and more so dropping out just a little punch in the warm cinnamon aspect.  There is a very minor difference in the mineral tone, so subtle it would only come across in direct comparison, but it doesn't work to describe it or judge how negative it is.  I think it is slightly negative versus neutral, but that's a judgement call at this point, as much just a difference.

Fourth infusion:

Rou Gui with Volvic:  a slightly dry underlying mineral in this might have increased this round, it just doesn't stand out as much in this as it had for the sheng at this stage, or take exactly the same form.  The tap water version is just as good this round, or perhaps even slightly better.  So strange; I have no idea why that would be.  I would expect effects to shift a lot for increasing brewing time in later round but this isn't really onto that as much as it would be in two more infusions.

Rou Gui with tap water:  still really exceptional, not losing anything for intensity or positive range.  I think depth is picking up, that the one-note emphasis on cinnamon is deepening to include a lot of other warmer tone range, that it balances even better.  It was great the other way too though, focused more on that one flavor aspect.

Fifth infusion:

I'll lengthen infusion time slightly but these teas are holding up; adding a lot of time for that wouldn't be positive.  I'm brewing these over 10 seconds now, for what I'd take to be optimum, maybe around 15, but it goes without saying that I'm not timing this, since I just don't.


Rou Gui with Volvic:  mineral is a bit much in this, a dry version of it.  Looking at the mineral profile calcium and magnesium seem to be at the level I'd expect to work best, based on following online discussions about that (12 mg and 8 mg, respectively).  It's not "hard" water, but that should be enough to play a standard role in extraction and setting profile.  The rest, the total dissolved solids value, would be a bit much; there's lots of other minerals in this.  This is still really pleasant, and a very nice citrus aspect is ramping up in this tea, a "chen pi" dried mandarin peel type effect.

Rou Gui with tap water:  slightly better than the Volvic, for not including so much of that dry mineral effect.  The rest of the profile is similar.  The citrus part may be at a slightly lower level, so not as intense or positive, but the overall effect is better for not tasting as much like that dry version of mineral.  Mineral is great in tea, in the right balance; it grounds the experience.  Older plant source teas and natural origin teas seem to express a lot of that, an underlying mineral element supporting overall complexity.  It's just slightly nicer in this tap water version for balancing better, in this particular infusion of this tea, per my judgement.  The difference in extracting other flavor range hasn't dropped out but is has shifted in balance; it seems to matter less.

I didn't note differences or aspect range for feel or aftertaste much for these; that didn't seem to vary as much as flavor related to the water type input.

a later round; adjusting infusion times would change effect of color difference

Lao Man E sheng water source input testing:

King Tea Mall 2018 Lao Man E sheng gushu with Volvic:  bitterness stands out; to be expected.  One could learn to love that effect, even at this level, but I haven't.  If it balances well with the rest I can appreciate it, even like it, but this is a bit much.  The tea seems to obviously be good tea; all the other markers for quality work out, thick feel, clean flavors, depth and complexity, lingering aftertaste.  That front end bitterness really defines the experience though, then it trails on, not dropping that much intensity for awhile.  At least sweetness goes along with it, and there is plenty of other range.  I'd expect it to drop off a little by round 3 or so but I'm not sure how far past that I'll get.

Lao Man E with filtered tap water:  a touch of metallic taste seems to be added to the rest.  That extended aftertaste is going to make this a terrible choice for combined tasting though, about as poor a choice as one could make.  I might have considered that, but it's not like I'm drinking Lao Man E all the time.  Rinsing your palate with plain water (not warm, not cold) works, but it's a lot to rinse in this case.  Making mistakes to learn from can be a good thing, it's just more pleasant when they're less obvious, less stupid mistakes.

In general the flavor profile seems to pop a little less, again, with that mineral difference the main change.  Sweetness may be slightly reduced but bitterness is dominating the flavor profile anyway, so it would stand out less.

Second infusion:

Lao Man E with Volvic:  bitterness is easing up; it's balancing a little better.  It won't be until the next round this approaches a more conventional sheng profile though, more evened out.  The point here is the difference anyway.

Lao Man E with tap water:  beyond a touch of mineral difference in this (not really a positive one; a touch of metallic flavor) and a slightly reduced fullness of feel it's similar.  The other Volvic brewed version comes across as slightly sweeter.  In the case of the Rou Gui it's about a shift in the best attributes being slightly dimmed, but the character isn't so different beyond that.  In the case of this it comes across differently.  That shift in underlying mineral, slightly less full feel, and slight reduction in sweetness seems to add up to change the tea character more.  They're only small shifts, and the basic aspects are the same beyond that, the general feel, flavors range, aftertaste, feel, but the effect is more of a change, or a change at a deeper level.  Again the Volvic brewed tea is just better; there was no trade-off that benefited using this local Bangkok tap water, at least not yet at this stage of infusions.

Third infusion:

Lao Man E with Volvic:  this is much better balanced for transitioning over those rounds.  Not in comparison with sheng that doesn't emphasize bitterness, if someone doesn't like bitterness, but I'm fine with it at this level, it's just definitely not a close match to personal preference.  The thick feel is nice, how clean this tea is, how the different layers of aspects work together.  One part under that is actually a little floral, drifting a little towards fruit, but deeper light mineral is really stronger. 

Rich, full feel is nice.  Aftertaste works a lot better for dropping off.  Usually people would couple those last two descriptions with where the feel impacts your mouth or throat, with aftertaste also related to a lingering feel.  I'm never so good with all that, in part for not valuing it.  It probably is as much a valid quality marker as what I do pick up more, but it seems a developed preference that would be as natural to never develop.

Lao Man E with tap water:  this finally works about as well as the other version.  It gives up a little thickness in feel but somehow the fruit and floral range (complex, but subtle, hard to define) is standing out a little more in this.  It might be working out as well or even better for not stripping out as intense a version of that bitterness.  Feel losing a little thickness isn't as positive.

The floral and fruit range I can try to define, to describe, but it would be a guess:  it's bright and sweet, so along the line of plumeria and dried mango.  There are lots of types of dried mango, so those tend to vary a lot, but that gets complicated to wade into that.  The brighter, sweeter, more citrus oriented kind.  In retasting both that bitterness hitting a little harder in the Volvic version isn't quite as positive, to me.  It may make for an exception that stripping out a little less intensity wouldn't always be a bad thing.

Fourth infusion:

Lao Man E with Volvic:  it's really strange how this is exhibiting a stronger mineral aspect, a slight metallic range.  It's almost as if I've mixed up the water sources, but then this probably does have more mineral content, so maybe that makes sense.  I have no idea what that means.

Lao Man E with tap water:  it's nice how that balance evened out.  Bitterness is still pronounced but the proportion is more relatable now.  The complexity is nice, the range of flavor, and how feel and aftertaste contribute to overall effect.

Fifth infusion:

Lao Man E with Volvic:  a dry mineral input is much stronger in this tea version.  It tips just a little towards how chlorine comes, that's just not it.  It's much more positive to say it tastes like limestone, and to be fair it's really in between the two.

Lao Man E with tap water:  there is less mineral effect in this, making it come across as sweeter in character, and better balanced.  I don't know that it is actually sweeter; that may just be how it seems, without as much of the mineral input changing things.  The tap water version was actually slightly better over the last two infusions, but to be fair the difference is a bit minor.

Conclusions:

It's crazy that two main shifts occurred in difference, varying a lot in early and later rounds.  Volvic brewed tea was clearly much better over the first two infusions, and clearly not as positive in the last, probably more even in the fourth, with tap water working just a little better in that round too.  I can't really unpack or explain that.  Somehow a shift in flavor and feel proportion across rounds favored the Volvic earlier on, and the filtered tap water later (which probably contains a lot less mineral).

It's worth noting that different people can and do use completely different timing sequences related to brewing different rounds to different infusion strengths.  It's more common to use lower proportions and longer times, and then to extend the timing more across later rounds than I tend to.  Why that is becomes a lot to account for, and beyond citing personal preference some of the rest wouldn't be clear.  It's hard for me to account for why people like tea prepared differently than I do; to some extent I suppose I never could.

It could be interesting to consider the water mineral content though, starting with the Volvic listing:

I'm kind of guessing, since I have been involved with plenty of discussions about water content but haven't memorized ranges, but the calcium and magnesium levels look ok, if maybe even a little low.  Per discussions those two are the main factors, with a moderate amount improving results, and high levels throwing them way off.  Looking back through old discussions and references, Rie Taluli did a review post comparing tasting results using of a number of types for green tea, and in a discussion comment of that post Peter Jones (who is into reviewing mineral effect themes) cited listings of standard mineral content of a number of brands:


EVIAN - Natural spring in France - 290mg/L sodium bicarbonate, 81mg/L calcium, 27mg/L magnesium, 6.7mg/L sodium. 

AQUAFINA (Pepsi), DASANI (Coke) - Municipal water through RO - no sodium bicarbonate, no calcium, no magnesium, no sodium. 

GLACEAU (Coke) - Municipal water through RO - no data, but unlike Dasani, they then add back in for flavor the calcium, magnesium, and bicarbonate. 

FIJI WATER - Natural spring in Fiji - 153mg/L bicarbonate, 18mg/L calcium, 14mg/L magnesium, 18mg/L sodium. 

NESTLE PURE LIFE - Municipal water through RO - no bicarbonate, 7.4-11mg/L calcium, 2.9-5mg/L magnesium, 4.4-9mg/L sodium. 

ARROWHEAD (Nestle) - Natural spring in Arkansas - no bicarbonate, 4-66mg/L calcium, 1.4-19mg/L magnesium, 3-17mg/L sodium.


I can't imagine that using Evian would work well, and it's odd that Arrowhead water is so inconsistent, but I'll leave off saying much more about the rest.  I do come back to the sodium level idea related to the local water version level.

About the local water description, some input is offered by Bangkok real time tap water quality monitoring (http://twqonline.mwa.co.th/EN/map.php?type=).  We live next to the Chitralada station, in the center.  These don't mean that much to me but they could to someone else:

free residual chlorine levels, Nov 9, 2019, 1 PM

chloride levels (mg / L)

turbidity (NTU)

ph

salinity, listed as g / L (seems wrong, too high?)

July 2019 ph capture (to show variability)

I don't know what was in that water, for specific mineral content, and I don't know what the filtration process would have removed.  Chloride level was around 4 mg / l in this water, versus 15 mg / l in Volvic, but what of that?  Salinity just seemed wrong; those readings would seem like way too much salt, in the 150 mg / l range.  What if that is right; shouldn't the water taste like salt?  As a baseline I checked how much is in seawater:

On average, seawater in the world's oceans has a salinity of approximately 3.5%, or 35 parts per thousand.  This means that for every 1 litre (1000 mL) of seawater there are 35 grams of salts (mostly, but not entirely, sodium chloride) dissolved in it.


So 35,000 mg / l, which still doesn't answer if I could taste 150 mg, but it's a context of sorts.  It occurred to me that salt is sodium chloride, so unless I'm missing something the two values don't match up, the measured amounts of chlorides and salinity.  That prompted me to look up answers to both questions, how much salt can one taste, and what are normal levels for these.  This WHO reference covers the first:

Taste thresholds for sodium chloride and calcium chloride in water are in the range 200–300 mg/litre (2). The taste of coffee is affected if it is made with water containing a chloride concentration of 400 mg/litre as sodium chloride or 530 mg/litre as calcium chloride (3).



I don't think we can take that second sentence as good input about coffee enthusiast perspective.  More input from that source pins down range of chloride in typical fresh water:

The mean chloride concentration in several rivers in the United Kingdom was in the range 11–42 mg/litre during 1974–81..


That still doesn't resolve the monitoring inconsistency between salinity and choloride levels, but it is interesting to compare that to sodium levels in the other bottled waters.

Further conclusions:

That last section was mislabeled, wasn't it; not much for conclusions in there, or even speculation.

I suspect this tap water version ended up with very little mineral content in it, due to starting out with limited amounts and filtration removing some.  It's interesting to consider that tea producing more positive infusions initially might generally relate to producing less positive infusions across later rounds.  At least that did happen here, per my interpretation, and it may work out as a somewhat uniform generality (or may not; that goes without saying).  This could explain why some people push teas to produce very long counts of infusions, and others tend to not like them as much after a much shorter sequence, although simple preference difference seems to be just as relevant an input. 

Then again, who knows.  Round after round of trying out lots of water and tea versions would tell a longer, more accurate story.  In online discussion it's not uncommon for people to claim that they prefer different water (mineral content, presumably) for different tea types, and that would intuitively make sense.

I've never ran across much detailed speculation of why soaking bamboo charcoal in water is said to improve the results for making tea with it, even though people advocating that practice comes up a lot in discussion.  Even when it's being sold for this use, as in the case of this Yunnan Sourcing version, there's not necessarily a reason for why it might make any difference.  It probably does, it would just be interesting to hear guesses about why.  Here is one that Google search turned up, Tony Gebely's input, but somehow it's not satisfying as a complete and plausible explanation:


The idea behind bamboo charcoal, and any charcoal for that matter is the fact that it is extremely porous and will absorb impurities in water. It really isn’t “filtering” water if you set a stick in the water, in order to filter the water, the water must pass through granulated charcoal or some other medium (this is how Brita filters work)...


It would seem that it could be both adding and removing minerals from the water, and that only testing, instead of speculation or traditional input, would shed light on this.  I would tentatively accept that it really does improve results, although that would be clearer to me if I tried it myself.

Tea Mania Mansa Gushu and Moychay Lao Man E sheng (2017)

Tea Mania cake (Mansa Yiwu)

Tea Mania leaves

Tea Mania wrapper

Moychay loose Lao Man E sheng

I was recently going through some tea storage and samples and noticed a few teas I really should get around to trying, including these two.  They don't necessarily go together (usually the point in combined tasting) but given variance in teas tasting will identify how similar they are better than a brief vendor description or source-area reference.

The other sheng I tried from Tea Mania were really good, way at the top of the scale of the rest of what I've tried.  I'm not sure if this tea will be standard related to other Yiwu I'm familiar with, sweet, intense, very floral, and approachable as bitterness goes.  The "cha qi" reference on that label sticker I won't be able to evaluate in combined tasting; for someone most interested in that this approach would make no sense at all.  I've been there and done that with drugs and alcohol and I'm not into pursuing shifts in how my body and mind feel from that sort of input.

Moychay sells a broad range of teas, types and qualities, but in general their pricing and descriptions give you an idea of what is what.  Aspect descriptions are a bit limited but that's really standard.  It's probably as well to not go too far into those since interpretations tend to vary, and teas like these will change from year to year.  For them pricing indicates how good they think a tea is, which can also be influenced by the demand side and rarity of products, so it's not really a one to one correlation.

These should be pretty good sheng.  I don't have lot of impression of these areas to go on. "Mansa" didn't really ring a bell (an area within Yiwu; with more on that theme here).  Lao Man E is known as a region that produces high quality, in-demand teas, but my impression had been that they're intense and perhaps not typically ideal for drinking young.  I'll look up vendor descriptions and add those at the end but basically I'll taste them as 2017 sheng.

They both have a really cool look; that's a good start.

Review

Tea Mania Mansa left, Moychay Lao Man E right

Mansa:  I gave these leaves a relatively long soak after a fast rinse (over 10 seconds; not that long) to get them started but the flavor is still a bit mild; it will develop more in the next round.  For once I'm avoiding the "packed gaiwan" level of proportion in order to get through more infusions so I'll probably need to stick with 10 second or so infusions versus closer to flash steeps as I more typically prepare sheng.  The flavor it does express is interesting for overall range and depth versus tastes that are pronounced.  It feels full and round, but moderate in astringency. The taste lacks bitterness with a light mineral and woody base, sort of in a dried hay range for main aspect, at this point.  I think it'll unfold more so I'll leave off at that.

Lao Man E:  That's unique.  There's a medicinal quality to it, right on the edge of tasting like mint, which is a bit different than range I'm familiar with.  It tastes a little like turpentine.  All the same all that is kind of interesting and positive.  It's not all that bitter or astringent either; strange.  It's not as light and smooth as the other version, with both still opening up.  Bitterness is present, but in a different form than I'm used to, and the level isn't what I would've expected.  It's slightly medicinal in character but nothing like aspirin.

Second infusion

Mansa:  this tea isn't bitter or astringent but it is a bit dry, kind of reserved as forward flavor goes; hard to describe what that's about.  It's intense but in a subtle way, something of a contradiction.  The feel is really substantial, and the aftertaste lingers, but as far as flavor intensity goes it's subdued.  Even the mineral base that comes with a lot of sheng, and is definitely present in this one, is integrated and not pronounced.  The main flavor range is along the line of dried hay, with some wood, and a bit of floral tone supporting that, but a mild floral aspect, like chrysanthemum.  Or depending on interpretation that could be flipped; it could be strong and pronounced chrysanthemum, with some dried hay and seasoned mild wood supporting that.  The second is probably a better description.

You can imagine how those types of flavors could mix together and be pronounced but still subdued (maybe?).  For someone looking for bright sweetness like in standard profile Yiwu this just isn't that.  I get a sense that even though strong flavors and a good bit of astringency typically mark a sheng that's going to develop over time, with that bright, sweet Yiwu nature possibly just fading instead, this might gain complexity and flavor instead of losing it.  There's a subtle intensity to it that's hard to place.

Lao Man E:  wow!  This is complex, on the opposite side in some ways.  It tastes like taking medicine, and like Christmas, with some pine, spice, and mistletoe hanging around behind that for context, probably even a touch of mint (although I'd probably flag that as eucalyptus, more menthol).  If that medicine range could move into a warmer spice or a touch of dried fruit would counter it this would fall into a balance I would really love.  The feel and aftertaste are really intense too, and I don't doubt that feeling these teas kicking in already (cha qi, that drug-like effect) is also related to this one, but maybe the other too.  It's interesting, and pleasant for being so intense, but I can't help but guess that this will work better as an older tea version, that the shifts related to aging will be positive.

Third infusion

Tea Mania Mansa tea left, Moychay Lao Man E right (these start to repeat) 

Mansa:  not so much transition.  There is a light, underlying bitterness I've not made much of, but otherwise it's still in the chrysanthemum / hay / mild wood / underlying mineral range for taste.  It's funny how it comes across as intense in terms of fullness and feel, and aftertaste, but doesn't taste like much, or at least it's quite subtle.  I get the sense that's because of how that particular range of flavor comes across, that "intense chrysanthemum" isn't how that works.  To put that in perspective, just a bit of menthol really stands out though (in the other tea version), and a moderate amount might be too much for the balance with the rest.

Lao Man E:  this is developing from where it had been last time but it'll probably work as well to say more about that next round once it gets further.  The balance is leveling out; mineral, menthol, mild spice (that's hard to place, bay leaf?), and pine are somehow softening, deepening, and seeming more balanced.  It has complexity and intensity going for it; the feel and aftertaste aren't moderate either.  It's not as if the first tea suffers in comparison but the volume is turned way down across the flavor range in that tea compared to this.  Now that I think of it that spice is probably closer to cardamom, which is kind of in between cinnamon, nutmeg, and menthol.

Fourth infusion

One or both of these teas is really strong in feel effect.  It's almost a body-high sort of thing, more than feeling a head-buzz or stoned, so I'd be ok with quite a bit of it, unlike when it's more like an opiate side-effect.

Mansa:  again intense but mild.  Sweetness is picking up; that's nice.  A mild root or bark spice aspect is joining in with the rest, subtle enough that it's hard to place.  I'll go with sasafras (the original flavor for root beer); it's reasonably close to that.  This is an unusual tea, being so intense but at the same time the flavor being so mild.  The flavor that is present is clean and positive, and it joins a really full feel, and doesn't vanish after you drink it.  It's different.  To some extent that could seem more extreme for trying it along with a really intense-flavored and complex tea but next to anything else it would still seem like that.

Lao Man E:  it shifts so that pine stands out more now, with menthol way dropped off, a trend that had been clear in the last round.  It's also nothing like medicine at this point.  This balance really works.  As for that warmer spice tone that had joined in it still seems most like cardamom to me.

Fifth infusion

This will be a lot of tea; it might work to try this round and get back to these.  Teas that don't have as strong an effect I could drink more of but this feel isn't just caffeine kicking in.

Mansa:  more or less the same as the last round, maybe losing a little intensity

Lao Man E:  also not transitioned that much, maybe also slightly less intense.

Often when I brew teas they won't change character so fast because I'm maxing out the proportion and using really fast infusions but with these brewing for around 10 seconds each round, or just over, they're changing faster.  Both work just as well on the quite-light side, even though the first tea would be moderate in flavor aspect level brewed in different ways.  That's the funny thing about that tea though; the flavor range has a depth to it, with a good bit of soft mineral and mild flower, so it's not tasteless, it's just subtle.

It's odd that optimizing or working around bitterness or astringency never came up.  The Lao Man E has more bitterness, which matches well with the pine flavor and flavor-intensive character, but it's not at all bitter as 2017 sheng would go.  Being whole-leaf changes things; broken up it would probably come across quite differently.

Sixth, seventh, and eighth infusions

I tried one more light infusion after the break; they were mostly as I remembered them.  I'll let the seventh run longer to see what that changes, closer to 30 seconds, and based on that result extended the last round time similarly (the last round I'll make notes on; these teas aren't spent yet).

The Mansa tea is still nice.  It's slightly sweeter than initially, still with a nice full feel and overall impression of complexity, even for being mild in flavor aspect character.  That round, smooth fullness reminds me a bit of how some Taiwanese high oolongs come across, the rest of the aspects just don't match that same tea type character.  Even on the 8th infusion it's still quite positive.

The Lao Man E is moving a bit from pine and the rest into a dill-spice sort of aspect range.  It's unusual but not bad.  These teas have been through a lot so even with the longer infusion time the intensity isn't too much; it's about where it should be.  I like the other tea a little better where they stand in the last round but they both still have positive character.

Conclusions and subjective impression

I still have to add what these are, especially related to the "Mansa" description.  Both weren't what I expected, not challenging due to being younger versions.  Intensity was fine for both; that was interesting.  I've been acclimated a bit to bright, sweet, and often approachable young sheng, or "wild" teas that are mild and interesting in a different sense, and these were slightly different in character.

I'm curious what both would be like as years pass but I really can't guess.  If one was bitter and astringent I'd guess that would mellow and turn more positive so the question is if this more subtle, or at least approachable, character of both would give a similar positive transition result.  It was odd for the Mansa tea to be intense across some aspect range but so mild in flavor; that's new.  Also odd for this Lao Man E to be so intense in so many ways but not really bitter or astringent.  It'll make for an interesting reference point for other teas from that area later on.

Vendor background review

I'll mostly pass on what they say about these teas, more than actually research much here.  It turns out Mansa Gushu Spring 2017:


For this Bingcha we used tea leaves from up to 300 years old tea trees in Mansa. We were already last year very pleased with this tea but we were unable to produce them at that time. The samples taken with us have developed so well that we desperately wanted to have this tea. The tea trees in Mansa are partly shaded and partly at the blazing sun. This special condition results in a particularly balanced aroma. The shaded tea leaves are particularly flowery in the aroma, while the sun-kissed tea leaves provide a strong Cha Qi.
Harvest: Spring 2017
Pressed: 2017
Type: Sheng
Taste: Flowery, a lot Cha Qi and a sweet aftertaste.
Origin: Mansa, Xishuangbanna prefecture, Yunnan province, China.
Preparation: Appx. 5g per tea pot, temperature 100°C. Rinse the tea leaves before infusing with boiling water.

Tip: This tea is ideal to mature a few years.


It did seem like it might improve with age.  I tend to associate bitterness and astringency with a character that requires aging, or is best suited to transition positively, and this was just a bit unusual, intense but not in those ways.


Onto the Moychay description:


It was made in the mountains of the Bulangshan Mountains (Menghai County, Xishuangbanna).

In the appearance: greyish-brown leaves with long thin cutting and silvery beige buds. The aroma is calm, woody-balsamic with fruity hints. It turns yellow during steeping.

Woody-balsamic with spicy, nutty, floral and fruity notes. The aroma is complex, woody-balsamic with floral and fruity notes. The taste is full-bodied and sweet tartness, light citrus sourness, minty coolness and lingering finish.

Brew tea with hot water (95 ° C) in a gaiwan or a teapot made of porous clay. The proportion is 5 g per 100 ml. The first infusion should last for 6-8 seconds. After that for short seconds (for 1-2 seconds), increasing steeping time for each subsequent step, if necessary. You can steep the tea up to 12 times.


I've included preparation recommendations since that may be of interest but I tend to take those with a grain of salt; people can prepare teas however they like them.  Sometimes for a novel type the advice does end up being good input but for a standard tea type it probably wouldn't add much.

As for price range these aren't inexpensive tea versions but not so far off; the one listed on the Tea Mania site (for what seems to be an earlier-year version of the same tea) lists at $70 for 100 grams (70 CHF, but it's about the same; the currency values might be linked), and the Moychay version sells for $88 per 100 grams.  They did both seem like well above average quality level tea, the kinds you wouldn't buy a $60 357 gram cake of.  I suppose it might also relate to the Tea Mania character really relating to older plant growth material, and the other to demand for origin area, but beyond those concerns the aspects in the cup came across as interesting to a different degree.

Then again the first Moychay review listed ends with "good everyday sheng."  I guess what just seems normal to different people varies.  I didn't flag any "tartness" in that Moychay version (related to that description) but the menthol was unusual.  It's worth noting that for sheng any descriptions would be dated; wait a year and the tea character would change, at least a little.

Both were very interesting teas.  To me they seemed to have a lot of potential to develop further over the next few years.  Both didn't really require long-term aging to be approachable, so identifying the "sweet spot" for them (when they are best) might require tasting them across a range of time.  I would imagine for some people they might be best now, I just didn't experience the same bright, sweet, floral hit in the Yiwu (Mansa) version that would clearly indicate the tea is expressing something that many might not prefer the tea to transition away from.


Peter mentioned that he liked the effect of the Mansa version being "clear."  I get that, and one description comment even mentioned that as a description, in the original notes and in this final review version.  There was an intensity to it that was hard to describe, which I guess I only described by saying that much.

I really expected the Lao Man E version to need more age than it did, to not be so approachable.  It's interesting experiencing the different character ranges in teas like these two.

Comparing Moychay shou pu'er from Yongde, Menghai, and Lao Man E

I'm reviewing three additional ripe pu'er sent by Sergey Shevelev of Moychay.  I'll be going through a number of their teas since he sent quite a few to try.  I'd say more about that, the range of those, and how that works out with accepting and reviewing a lot of teas from one source (right, those are cakes), but this already runs a little long, so I'll keep that part short. 

I don't see a conflict with receiving tea for review, even in quantity greater than the 10 or 20 gram samples usually sent for review.  I think personal bias affects tea experience more than we could ever completely notice, that expecting or wanting to like a tea--or the opposite--might factor in.  Even though I just describe what I experience expectations could shift that a little.  I don't avoid adding subjective impression to reviews, mentioning if I like teas, as some tea bloggers do.  If I didn't like a tea I wouldn't review it, since it wouldn't make for a very interesting story (maybe unless a tea was bad in an interesting way, which rarely comes up).  If I just didn't like an aspect I'd mention that.

Did I ever mention a video introduction of their company in English?  I have covered visiting their shops in Moscow and St. Petersburg on a trip not long ago, but some of that was in travel themed posts on here (like this trip summary version, which barely mentions tea).

Teas list, reviewed in this post:


Yongde big tea tree 2016

Menghai Qiaomu (wild arbor) 2015

Lao Man E Huang Jin Ye big tree 2017


Descriptions like "wild arbor" and "big trees" can mean different things, but as with vendors who won't discuss tea tree ages (lots of them) it's as well to just describe teas to a limited extent and then evaluate them related to that experience.  Per my understanding usually qiaomu is used to indicate a growing area that's in a more natural state, or located around older growth areas, but not necessarily wild jungle species mixed-plant growing areas.  Links in a later section covering their tea descriptions lead to more background information.

I tasted these teas blind, beyond reading the front label, so I didn't know that the Lao Man E version was a huang pian or yellow leaf produced shou version, or atypical in any way.  Related to what I was saying about expectations it was probably as well to go through that without knowing.  The tea was clearly different than the other two, in more than one way, which these tasting notes cover.  I've reviewed a sheng version of that not so long ago, with more description of what that is in this post.

I'll add clearer photos of these cake labels and the teas and move onto tasting review.

Yongde big tree shou

Menghai Qiaomu (wild arbor)

Lao Man E Huang Jin Ye (huang pian / yellow leaf based shou)

Review

I'll say a little about these teas on the initial infusion but it really makes sense for the main review to start on the second round instead, and these could still transition a good bit into the third.

Yongde left, Menghai upper middle, Lao Man E lower right

The Yongde version is nice, full, rich, and smooth.  It could pick up a bit more aspect complexity, not showing as much in way of different forms of distinctive character as it might, but it may well develop further through another infusion.  It still sticks to within a relatively narrow range of "tastes like shou," that standard earthy and mineral-supported range, but the sweetness and clean flavor range is promising.

The Menghai is a bit deeper in flavor, more towards the earthy range one might describe as towards petroleum or tar, but in a generally good sense, if that makes sense.  I've experienced shou in that flavor range transition to a much sweeter, creamier effect later, so even if that range persists and is seen as negative it may well show this tea to have more potential than the first.

The Lao Man E Huang Jin Ye is more distinctive, but perhaps a bit thinner than the other two.  It's still complex, rich, and clean, and full-flavored (it is shou), but the aspect range is a little narrower and intensity a bit less.  It may still evolve into a more interesting range than the other two since this is only getting started. 

As the youngest it should still suffer the most from the effects of fermentation flavors remaining.  I would have expected that to take the form of rough edges, extra aspects instead of being more subtle, but I suppose it's possible that this tea was intentionally fermented to a lesser degree.  Or a more simple explanation:  this is by far the most whole-leaf of the three, relatively intact instead of chopped, so it may not be a fair comparison using the same infusion times.  Related to how all other teas work out using whole leaves instead of chopped should work out better, since the flavor produced is less over the same brewing time but better, with more infusions possible unless a longer time is used.

We'll see how all that plays out in the next few rounds.  It's a good sign that there was nothing for "off" flavors to get past, no fishiness, sourness, etc., unless someone was really opposed to a bit of petroleum effect in the second tea.

Second infusion

Infusion time was between 15 and 20 seconds (not timed; people into that type of carefully controlled process approach are reading the wrong blog).  I'll probably go with around 10 next round to see if that isn't more appropriate for this proportion, but regular readers will be familiar with the theme of messing around with variation for different reasons.

judging by color that brew intensity is a bit much, but shou can be ok like that

The Yongde tea is nice, not transitioned that much.  I'm reminded of a shou I bought from Yunnan Sourcing awhile back, a "Golden fruit" Taetea version.  It was sweet, clean, and decently complex but not unusual in any particular way, and not quite as complex or novel as it might be.  I wouldn't guess that aging would deepen flavor range in such a tea, but who knows.  I only bought that last year so it's too early to tell.  Both teas are good, and both very approachable, with no negative aspects to speak of, perhaps exactly what some are looking for in shou.  That other particular tea was well-regarded in online reviews and comments, and I did like it, but it came across to me as a bit plain.

The Menghai version is moving from petroleum range to dark wood and spice already, much improved.  It wasn't awful to begin with, really pleasant for my preferences, just unusual.  The feel is a bit thicker, and range of aspects all around a little deeper.  The aftertaste lasts longer than the first and the feel is a bit thicker, in addition to flavor range being more complex.  That complexity extends beyond a touch of fresh crude or tar (no longer the primary flavor range), into dark wood towards spice (the main flavor), with an underlying mineral and trace of char near French roast coffee.  This may be an exceptional tea for coffee lovers; we'll see how it plays out.

I think the Lao Man E is just lower in intensity due to brewing slower, due to not being a chopped tea.  It picks up a good bit of depth in this round but is still more subtle, almost surely brewing slower due to that effect.  If that guess is right the next round will correspond to where these other two are on the infusion cycle now, even though they've been exposed to the exact same infusion times.  And it will take a slightly longer infusion time to match brewed strength, with the tea holding up for a much longer infusion time overall than the other two.

It's clear why, isn't it?  CTC black teas brew out really fast due to being ground, with broken leaves brewing faster than whole versions.  That's why tea bags can get away with using a gram of tea dust to brew a cup, which is ready in 3 to 4 minutes, with the tea essentially spent after that time.  You can stretch a tea bag to get a second infusion but it's not so different than getting a better whole-leaf black tea to last into a third infusion using a standard Western approach and proportion.  It requires a longer brew time and the results aren't typically good.  For someone making tea from low-grade tea bags maybe a second cup being possible and the tea just tasting like something is already "good" results, but I mean the aspects quality drops instead.

Third infusion

I'll go short on the first two teas, around 10 seconds instead, and stick with 15 for the Lao Man E, per the last discussion.

Yongde left, Menghai upper middle, Lao Man E right (in all the photos)

The Yongde tea isn't transitioning much.  It is the lightest and sweetest of the three, clean flavored, and bit light and bright as shou goes (although it still does taste like shou), so some would prefer this over the others.  I'd think most shou drinkers would crave more intensity, more depth, and whatever positive complexity they could get, so maybe would appreciate the other two more.  The earthiness resembles a typical shou profile, dark woods and slate.  That brightness could be interpreted as a trace of fruit but I'm not completely getting that.  The depth of the complexity that is there might come across a little like cocoa, which works well for my preferences.

The Menghai packs a good bit more punch related to intensity and depth of aspects.  I think a fair comparison of these two teas would include letting both sit for another three years and trying them then, since I'd expect a lot of what is going on will give this tea a good starting point for aging transitions.  It's not that problematic fermentation tastes need to drop out, rather in this case that aspects complexity could potentially transition in an interesting and positive direction.  Again someone seeing parts of the dark wood, spice, roasted coffee range char, and petroleum-like aspect as problematic might like those transitioning to sweeter, creamier flavors, which I would expect, to some degree.  Or someone could really be into the tea like this.  It's as close to coffee as any tea ever gets, including matching some of the intensity and complexity in good coffee.  It has some sweetness to it too, and is clean in effect, so the overall balance isn't "off," just quite different than the first.

The Lao Man E really is just starting to open up now, as I suspected.  There's something unusual in the flavor aspects range I won't be doing justice too; always awkward putting that limitation out there.  It's along the lines of aged hardwood, mixed with a much more subtle version of spice than what I'm referring to in the second, with none of the petroleum or coffee char at all.  I'll take a guess:  that spice might be something like sandalwood.  Again I have a suspicion this tea isn't even in the normal full profile range it'll get to in the next infusion.  Brewing more whole leaf shou is a funny thing; it's almost always at least quite broken, if not actually chopped.  It's about as subtle as the first tea but has more going on; it's more unique.  But then I get the impression it hasn't really transitioned to its main range yet.  As with the second an aftertaste effect lingers with this tea, but in a different form.

Editing note:  it is odd leaving these notes in the original form, without describing why that flavor range and intensity is so different, because it's huang pian, or yellow leaf tea.  One would expect it to be milder and sweeter, with flavors in a different range, based on that.

Fourth infusion

trying the teas nice and light; shou works well across a broad range

The Yongde version might be picking up a bit more spice, but otherwise it's unchanged.  It is complex enough that if someone tried to interpret different types of fruit there would be something there to base that on, or the cocoa I'd mentioned, but it comes across as a less broad or distinct flavor set than it might, just as slightly complex.  Again it works well for being a light, clean shou version.

Creaminess picks up a bit in the Menghai version, with that coffee char effect moving more into a Guiness stout effect.  The flavors "clean up" a bit too, with some of the earthiness one might interpret as petroleum related dropping out.  The spice range doesn't really develop but that sweeter, creamier effect is nice, and it all balances the best of any infusion.  It's an interesting version of shou, to me a very positive one, but it might take a shou drinker to relate to it, where the first isn't hard to relate to at all, just slightly less complex and interesting.

The Lao Man E changed the most this round; not really surprising.  The feel of this tea is really something; about as thick as teas tend to get.  And the aftertaste has an unusual character, maybe just related to being intense, or maybe there's more to it, something else adding to that effect.  Related to flavors range the tea is a bit woody, with an unusual spice range persisting.  It moved from aged hardwood into autumn leaf, with the spice range muting just a little.  Maybe that's sandalwood or maybe that's not; it's been a long time since I've burned incense. 

More than gets communicated about any one of these aspects this tea really comes together as an overall experience.  With that flavor being a little more subtle than the other two I wouldn't be surprised if it ages in terms of developing, of aging and fermenting a bit more in a more conventional sense, instead of already-present fermentation related aspects settling out or transitioning.  Of course that's just a guess; I suppose it could just fade.

Fifth infusion

Yongde lower left, Menghai upper middle, Lao Man E lower right

My patience for making tasting notes is fading faster than these teas are so this might be it.  It will be interesting seeing how these three continue on and transition in later rounds, or which fades faster, but even though I'm using small tasting gaiwans for this I don't think I'm going to make it through nearly 30 cups of tea to get there.  Of course I'm really feeling these teas already; I don't talk about "qi" all that much in reviews but one or more of these contributes more of that than is typical.  That's one thing you give up in combined tasting; I don't know which tea version is causing that effect.  Having cakes to work from versus small samples I'll experience each on its own later but probably will never check back in about that; there's just too much to say about too many things.

The Yongde might be fading a bit already.  It would be possible to bump up infusion time a little (I only let these go around 15 seconds, still on relatively short times), but it may be on the downhill side.  It's not as if it only has a couple more infusions left in it, but character will change based on the effect of using longer times.  It might be as positive as it's been, with sweetness and cocoa coming out just a little more, but the overall range might thin a little too.

The Menghai is thinning just a little too; these teas probably are ready for over 20 second infusion times.  They work well a little thinner too; it's not as if there's not still a lot going on.  I probably like shou brewed a bit stronger than some, not thin at all, since to me that effect is part of the appeal of the type.  Someone else might push it further and drink tea made more like coffee, so the point here is that I tend to drink it prepared as more intense than other tea types.  I like sheng on the very thin side, plenty intense prepared that way.  Aspects aren't transitioning enough to say more about that.

I don't think the Lao Man E is lightening, although it was more subtle in the earlier rounds too.  It's more that the three evened up for intensity and infusion strength in this round.  I should probably let the three go for a bit over 20 seconds for one more round to say where transition seems to be headed before leaving off.  I've essentially already expressed it but this Lao Man E isn't as exceptional in terms of flavor (that's smooth and a bit light, with limited compensating complexity, just a little different for what's there), but the overall effect related to all the other aspects is really unique.  I've never experienced a shou with a feel this full and the aftertaste experience is quite persistent, and somehow unusual beyond that.

Sixth infusion (this really will be it)

This tea's flavor (the Yongde) is starting to transition to slightly woodier, normal for later rounds.  It would've been possible to drink these teas quite a bit lighter and they'd be at this point a few infusions later, but that's just a matter of preference.  As I said I like shou on the stronger side compared to most other teas.  Aged shou mei can be comparable; those can be nice brewed so thick that the aspects would be just as nice lighter, to stress the feel effect, and just to experience the intensity.

The Menghai is where a thinner, less complex shou might have been the whole time.  Woodiness also picks up in this tea, and complexity thins.  It's still clean and positive, and it still balances well, but the overall range drops back.

The thickness of the Lao Man E stands out in comparison to the others, and the intensity on those other levels, the complexity and aftertaste.  It is holding up better, lasting longer, or put another way just brewing slower.  The three teas are the closest to each other that they've been in flavor range.  This still has that one woodiness related spice effect that gives it a bit of extra depth. 

a Loa Man E leaf, with a baht for scale (about the size of a penny)

Conclusion

I'll add the vendor descriptions here to see what they thought.  I've not read them; back to the blind tasting idea.  There's a chance they've flagged a couple of flavor range aspects I'd agree with that could change my taste-list description by that little bit, after trying them again and thinking it through.  Tasting a tea only once, and especially tasting three at once, tends to diminish overall resolution of what you pick up.  These teas have been around here for awhile, a month and a half or so, so they're not going through that transition related to shipping throwing them off, but I'd expect exposure to this hot, humid Bangkok air and another month or two of storage will get them all opened up a bit more.

the high is 33 C today, but it's 31 right now.  balmy!

I liked all three teas; they were all just quite different.  The Yongde might be preferable to people who like a lighter, sweeter shou, and the Menghai showed the most complexity at this point, at least in terms of flavor.  That flavor range (dark wood, spice, slight char, initial petroleum transitioning to Guiness stout creaminess) might not be for everyone but I'd think shou lovers would relate well to it, and I'd expect it to be even more developed and positive in another couple of years.


The Lao Man E is something else; not necessarily the best of the three related to flavors, at least at this point, but with the most aspects complexity by far counting all range.  People will sometimes convey how flavors that could be interpreted as a bit off are an expression of shou potential, of how that touch of petroleum in the Menghai could transition well to something else, and I have experienced that in other shou.  The Lao Man E is subtle, so something else would have to be going on for the tea to develop further. 

Of course I found out after the tasting session that it was huang pian (yellow leaf), made from a different type of leaf source.  I still wonder if it couldn't have been fermented less, but that factor seems likely to have caused that unique character, the subtlety, and enabled that unusual flavor range to emerge, the spice.  I'm really not sure what all that means for aging, or if the intensity of other aspects really means it has more potential for aging or not.  That kind of doesn't match conventional wisdom with sheng, where a tea being intense on the undrinkable side is often regarded as showing positive potential for aging.  I'll say more about that in the form of an example after I touch on the Moychay site descriptions.

Moychay site descriptions

These citations are limited mostly to descriptions of taste, including reference to current price, since it was also there.  All of these are in-house, commissioned productions, not resold or re-labeled teas.


Yongde Dashu Shu Cha (Moychay.com, 2016), 100 g., $9.04

Ripe puer «Yongde Big Tee Trees, grown in Yongde district (Lincang County)»:  The bouquet of brewed tea is mature, with notes of wood, prunes and baked chestnuts. The aroma is warm and deep, nutty with notes of prunes. The taste is full-bodied and sappy, velvety, sweetish, with light fruity sourness and lingering finish.


Menghai Qiaomu Shu Cha (Moychay.com, 2015), 357 g. $25.37

Ripe puer «Big Tee Trees, grown in Menghai County (Xishuangbanna) »The bouquet of brewed tea is mature, nutty, with notes of wood, prunes, rustic bread and baked chestnuts. The aroma is warm and deep, nutty with notes of nuts and prunes. The taste is full-bodied and sappy, velvety, sweetish, with light fruity sourness and lingering finish.


Lao Man E Huang Jian Ye (Moychay.com, 2017), 357 g. $45.93

Ripe puer «Golden Leaf, grown near Lao Man E village (Mount Bulangshan, Menghai county, Xishuangbanna)» The bouquet of brewed tea is mature, with notes of wood, prunes, pastry and baked chestnuts. The aroma is warm and deep, nutty with notes of smoked prunes. The taste is full-bodied and sappy, velvety, sweetish, with light fruity sourness and lingering finish.


A few things stand out.  The short version about huang pian, or yellow / golden leaf source tea:  it's the older or yellowed leaves harvested, also referred to as "farmer's tea."  In one sense it's a lower grade of material and in another it's just a different thing.  The taste is a bit sweeter, and milder, slightly earthy, and just different.  That explains why a cake of tea from a highly sought after region is priced within the normal range of medium quality level pu'er (higher than average for medium quality teas or factory teas, but lower than one would expect from that area).


Beyond that part all the descriptions sound a bit the same; they differ but they overlap.  They do vary, and I don't really disagree with them outlining common ground (they are all shou; the type runs along the same lines), or the specifics in those descriptions, although I described each relatively differently.  The wood I did mention, although it seems too vague to just leave that at wood, since that covers so much range.  Baked chestnuts could really apply to a lot of shou; lots of versions have a rich fullness that extends to sweetness that could be interpreted as that.  The prunes, pastry and the rest; why not.  As shou tends to go all three were quite complex and that's going to come across differently to lots of people.  Once you think prune or chestnut you're going to "get" that.  It seems as well to not dwell on the longish review section and these interpretations not overlapping on some finer points.


Those teas seem a good value, related to pricing versus what I'd expected.  Shou does often run a bit on the inexpensive side compared to sheng but all three had interesting and very uniformly positive character.  The first, the Yongde, seemed like a good light version of an "everyday drinker," giving up a little in uniqueness and complexity to the others, but probably exactly what some people would be looking for.  The second seemed like it has great potential to even out into a really complex and interesting tea in a couple more years, and it's quite nice now.  The third was the most novel, and suitable for people looking for something different.  I'm not sure if its relatively subtle nature means that it might not gain further complexity with more time or transition much but it has unique character already.  I've not had any shou with a thicker feel or more pronounced aftertaste, and that sandalwood spice range aspect (for lack of a more informed wood-spice guess) is pretty cool.

Those last two Moychay loose shou I tried may have been slightly more developed, with just a little more depth, but then having a good number of extra years to rest may have evened them out and allowed them to transition any slightly rough edges into interesting complexity.  These three versions were more than ready now, not off in any way, not expressing "processing tastes" that needed time to fade.  If anything per one strand of conventional wisdom they should be a little edgier or more strange in different ways to have the best character to age.  You definitely don't want your shou to taste like fish or charcoal in order for that to fade, though, and I'm not completely sure what odd character they should have.

One last tangent about aging sheng

While I'm on the subject of aging I'll mention something only vaguely related to make a comparable point; it's not as if this is already running long.  I just tried a 2014 Jia Ji Dayi tuocha I bought a couple of years ago that tasted a bit like aspirin back then.  I'll cite a description from that:

It's smokey, a little bitter, right in the middle between chewing on an aspirin and drinking a softer green tea version, something decent. 

from two years ago; it's the same but slightly darker

The tea is really nice now, based on trying it again a few days ago.  The bitterness is largely faded, the smoke moderated, and richer, smoother, sweeter tones have picked up.  Earlier rounds are nice, balanced and catchy, but later ones include a cool pine needle type of effect, not so different than one that shows up buds heavy black teas.  I'd guess this tea would have been much slower to transition in a less hot and humid environment, but at this rate in a couple more years it'll really be something.  I should buy another half dozen, if I can find them.  My understanding is that shou pu'er aging is completely different, as I've already described earlier in the post.

So the tie-in here was that after experiencing some transition patterns a tea drinker can sort of predict a pu'er's future, to a limited extent.  I've just described some transition from a sheng, in this case from less drinkable to quite pleasant, and I've been going on about that subject for nearly a year.  I don't have the same level of exposure with shou but I've been through a little with that.  Four years ago I bought three Dayi 7572 cakes in a yearly production sequence  as a step towards that.  I haven't been focusing on shou much but I've tried some in between, although maybe only a dozen or so. 

These last five Moychay shou versions have been a great experience in continuing on with exploration.  I can say if the guesses about aging these three works out as expected in a couple of years, but I do have other versions still to try, so more to go on related to experiencing different versions and aging effects.