Thai and Vietnamese black tea and sheng pu'er at a Bangkok meetup

 

it wasn't this meetup; I forgot to take a picture (but this is Seth and Huyen)

I finally hosted people for a tea meetup this weekend, trying some really nice teas, that went well together as a set.  The main focus was on Thailand and Vietnam origins, but the two last versions didn't fit this post heading description at all, as aged Yunnan sheng (2004 from Dayi / Taetea), and 2020 Fu hei cha.  I took no pictures of the event or participants; that's an oversight.

The sequence of teas worked out well.  The people joining were in a good place to appreciate them, so discussion was pleasant, including range beyond tea.  This will leave those parts out, and focus on the teas, and why the order made sense.  That last part is a lot of the meaning here, about how trying a diverse range of teas can really inform the experience of everything in the set, more than a narrower theme.

In one sense these were all really good quality teas, and pleasant versions, and in another sense just basics range.  It's interesting how that works out.

101 Plantation Thai Oriental Beauty:  I've reviewed a lot of these teas, some recently, with this one reviewed here.  It's a pleasant, drinkable, very approachable place to start, tasting like honey, citrus, and cinnamon as OB tends to.  This version is pretty far up the scale as quality level for Thai OB goes, one of the better versions that I've tried.  

rolled leaf form OB on the left

That said, it still includes just a bit of green wood flavor input, and some of those positive flavors could be a little more intense, so it's just on the pretty good side of the Taiwanese range, better than average, but not comparable to the best of the best.  Which is still pretty good.  Given the price is moderate all that adds up to a cue for Thai local tea enthusiasts to order it online as soon as they hear about it, because it won't be around long.

Wawee Tea black tea:  I love this tea, which is kind of a main running theme across these versions, that they're what I like, just now and in general.  It includes plenty of cacao and fruit, with warm floral tones, and no tartness, which to me detracts from the overall experience.  The balance, sweetness level, and intensity are good, beyond that flavor profile being quite pleasant.  

I reviewed this tea in comparison with the next one we tried from Viet Sun in this post; strange it worked out that way.  I already mentioned loving both tea versions; it relates to that.  That detailed description doesn't exactly match what I'm saying here about these teas; so it can go, that you can really zero in on specifics in a combined tasting, spending an hour on just experiencing two tea versions, versus drinking them in other ways.

It's not so far off a standard Dian Hong style.  By that I mean that it includes a lot of warm mineral range and depth, and even though I've described it as including bright, intense, forward flavors--or at least that seems implied to me, as I read this.  It is as much about that depth as it is the forward range.  Which works well for me; I like that style.  With any tea experience there's an emergent "how good?" effect that relates as much to match to preference as any of these aspects or styles that I describe.  This tea version works really well for me.

Viet Sun Vietnamese black tea (Y Tý Air Dried Black Spring 2026; probably sold out now, that's generally how that goes).  

This version smells really sweet, and lots like cacao, with fruit notes coming in beyond that, and it is really intense.  It switches that focus on depth, or equal balance with warmer, deeper tones, for that blast of cacao and fruit.  But it balances just as well, just in a completely different way.  Flavors are really pronounced and clean, without a hint of anything negative, or any flaw.  This is a fantastic version of this style and form of tea.  The guests could really relate to both, and to the difference between them.  But it was time to shift theme.

Wawee Tea sheng pu'er (or since it's Thai tea just sheng, or however you prefer for designation):  in drinking "light to heavy" it could seem more intuitive to get to this tea first, because the tone is lighter.  It's bright, fresh, and intense, with lighter fruit and floral range, a bit of bitterness, and limited vegetal range.  Sweetness is great, balancing the rest.  It's a great match to what I love in drinkable young sheng, especially that overall intensity.  That's why I had us try this after the black teas instead; it's way more intense than them, even though flavor tones are lighter.  Sometimes people have trouble relating to a balance of bitterness included in a flavor set but everyone present seemed to relate well to this version.  It is approachable, not overly bitter, as some sheng can be.

It made for an interesting discussion point, about how aspects like bitterness and astringency can vary, and about why I describe factory teas as one particular thing, often in somewhat negative terms.  That came up again later, as we tried an aged Dayi (purple label 7542, from 2004).  It goes without saying that lots of teas from factory production tend to be even more intense, and less approachable, sort of "designed" for aging, even though it just works out that way.  The leaf being broken--often--lends to this harsher effect and greater intensity.  Then there's really a divide between the main producers, Dayi / Taetea, CNNP / Zhongcha, and Xiaguan, and how the rest of the smaller producers come across, which is not unified.  But that's a lot to get into here, even at the higher level summary, as we just did.

Viet Sun Y Ty sheng (I think the H'mong version, instead of the Dao):  this is my favorite of the set of Viet Sun teas I bought earlier this year, or at least it was, so it was nice trying it as well.  It's not so far off the Wawee character, but a little more refined in a sense, and intense in a different way.  I suppose the flavor profile is different.  I wasn't trying to clock specific flavor lists in this kind of tasting, especially for going through a lot of brewing details fairly quickly to keep it all moving along.  And we had a nice snack, maybe after this tea version.  There's a good local bakery in the Suan Dusit University, a main branch of the Home Bakery, that makes nice pastries, croissants, and egg tarts, and we had a nice mix.

those two Y Ty origin versions

This was one visitor's favorite; he really connected with these approachable and pleasant sheng.  Bitterness is pretty moderate for both of these versions, and intensity is significant but not challenging.  Flavor sets are pleasant; to me they are easy to relate to.  But again it was time to shift theme.

2004 Dayi / Taetea purple label 7542:  this tea is finally aged to where it should be, after 22 years in hot and humid Bangkok storage, so just a bit ahead of schedule.  It was a huge shift, moving from black tea, then light and approachable sheng, then onto well-aged sheng pu'er.  But it helped that the tea is still intense in terms of positive flavor range, and not challenging in any way.  4 or 5 years ago it would have been.  Of course it tastes like old furniture, old books, or like an old cabin in the woods would smell.  But clean; the hot and humid storage isn't as musty as one might expect.  

Specific storage areas can include that kind of input, a bit of extra fermented cardboard, or cement block.  Getting air contact right helps.  In one sense this might seem to mean very little air contact, since if you set this tea out on a shelf it would go dead.  I store the teas wrapped in either the plastic wrapper they come in, or in multi-layer packaging, or both, and then they're in storage boxes that get opened relatively regularly.  If you only opened a storage box every other month you could limit that extra inner layer of containment.  But it's more common now for people to use mylar sealing envelope type storage to keep them very contained, after conditioning to a desired level of moisture / humidity content.  It's always 70% or more humidity level in Bangkok, so it's fine, in a decent range.

This tea is pretty good; there's more I could say about that.  The people joining seemed to get that.  Where we rushed through the black teas a bit more, saving them for drinking some mixed together for a large cold-brew batch later, we did a couple of extra rounds with this.  I tried keeping proportion moderate for the two younger sheng, using longer infusion times, so we "used up" the potential for those better.  I was brewing two combined infusions ("stacked") from a 200+ ml gaiwan, mixing that to serve as a bit less than 400 ml split by 5 people; a good bit for this kind of tasting theme.

2020 Fu cake (this was the Lincang origin version, reviewed here):  I've taken to including one of two similar Fu hei cha versions, from Oriental Leaf, as a last round for tastings.  It's very different than the rest, no matter what we drink, and heavy in character, but quite approachable.  The uniqueness works well; everyone always loves the tea version, and it's one last eye-opening indicator of how much range tea can cover.  

These versions--there is a second from a different origin that's similar but different--can taste a bit like yeast or fresh bread, extending into a fresh rye or dark rye bread flavors.  There is a touch of citrus and honey from the jin hua / golden flower input.  Depth and complexity are great, and it's all way more approachable than one would expect.  It can be a little bit of a shock trying something so novel so far through a tasting experience, but it's interesting to end on that kind of surprise.

The guests really got the teas.  Two I've met at least a couple of times before, at these tasting meetups.  Two were new to Bangkok, exploring South East Asia, as many guests have been before, a bit transient.  I miss some of those people, or I suppose a lot of them.  I've been lucky to meet so many bright spirited, charming, enthusiastic, and open tea drinkers.  People bringing different perspectives helped discussion extend in interesting directions beyond just focusing on the tea.  

We talked a bit about Thai culture, the local art scene, what temples are like, differences in SE Asian countries, travel, and so on.  The subject of Japanese tea ceremony came up, but it's a lot to fully treat in depth, so as with many other tangents we only brushed through mention of a few points.  It can be problematic for the discussion to feel balanced in covering so much range in such a limited form like that, or some developed tangents can leave some guests out.  In this meetup it all really worked.  Size of the group matters; 5 of us joined, with 5 people either cancelling or being tentative and then not coming, and with 10 people it would've been much harder to manage.

we met inside instead of out here this time; it's a bit warm lately

the other garden space

fence view facing the other way, with a mango hanging, and cat checking out a squirrel

my nemesis; he eats the mango before they're even ready

Placing different kinds of tea vendors in relation to types

 

Over and over people ask online about others' favorite vendors, and one part that gets lost is that there are different kinds of vendors, with different focuses.  Value can vary a lot, and quality level of tea.  Range of what is available from each varies.  

I'm going to try to place different kinds of vendors by category, mostly through the lens of trying teas from a few sources in the past half a year.  I'll need to extend that, to get to other main types and source examples, because I've only bought tea from four sources this year, that come to mind (online; I keep buying tea from a favorite local Chinatown shop, mostly to give away, but also for myself).  That's a lot compared to last year; more than for the whole year.  Of course these aren't intended to represent optimum sources; they just match my own preferences.

Related to the Reddit tea vendors list capture, the image at the beginning, it's strange that there is only three categories there, for beginners, US sources, and teaware.  That leaves out most applicable range, for the rest of the world, and for everyone who isn't a beginner (although it still probably works for 90% of that sub / group).  It's interesting that one cited source, for beginners, mentions curated tea selling for 10 to 30 cents per gram.  That's something of a contradiction, for reasons this further content will describe.

I'll start with a couple main types of sources I didn't get to, and then move on to examples of what I've tried, and how I see those mapping to categories and other comparable source options.  There are pros and cons of using different kinds of sources, that relate to what someone is looking for, in terms of type / style, and value, which I'm describing as cost in relation to quality level.  

A relatively low quality version of tea can still be a great value, if selling for a very low and fair price.  Of course that's only if someone is ok with drinking that tea.  A really costly tea can still be a great value, if quality level, rarity, and market demand all support that it's worth it.  

To put a rough price range to that anything under 10 cents a gram is selling at the low end, for specialty tea.  Under 5 typically relates to a different quality range entirely, for mass-produced, pretty limited in quality tea versions.  You can generally buy really good quality, in-demand versions for 60 or 70 cents per gram, and it all levels off quite a bit around $1 / gram (which is the first reference to why "curated" tea selling for 30 cents a gram or less makes no sense; you can only curate the medium quality level range for that pricing, which is still pretty good tea, but "curation" implies that it's better than that).

This won't mostly be about evaluating value for different kinds of sources, but as I see it that's one main running theme, along with how good the teas actually are, and how unique the teas being offered are.  You can buy above average Anxi Tie Guan Yin from lots of places, or Jin Xuan rolled oolong in Thailand; this is mostly about teas that are more unique, and harder to find.

Places I don't shop

Online market outlets:  in the past Chawang Shop was sort of an exception to this, and I had great experiences buying tea from them.  Yunnan Sourcing is really the main example (and I've had positive experiences buying tea from them too).  King Tea Mall is a well-known and typically favorably regarded source, but according to some Yunnan Sourcing products may be a little more consistent.  King Tea Mall is probably buying and selling more online, and Yunnan Sourcing would use pretty well established upstream sources at this point, since they were already around 20 years ago, operating out of Kunming.

These kinds of vendors offer everything under the sun.  That's less true of Chawang Shop, but I'm using this categorization in a positive sense for them, claiming that they offer a broad range of tea types across a range of quality levels at decent value.  Here's an interesting in-house Jinggu shou pu'er I bought from Chawang Shop 4 years ago, probably not typical of what they sell, but then I'm claiming here that they sell different things, varying grades of sheng and shou, and hei cha, so in a sense it is.  That tea was unusually inexpensive ($15 for 400 gram brick), because they were selling it before it was settled (from fermentation funkiness) as a special offering, and you really need to hold onto it for a couple of years to get good results out of it.

Filtering related to what you want to find is a requirement, and there would be hits and misses, related to quality level and value.  Getting input from others through online group discussion could be helpful.  In the past text blogs or sites like Steepster filled this role, but now Discord discussion is probably more helpful.  Facebook is more or less dying, in relation to tea discussion, and Reddit tea subs tend to be stuck on people repeating the exact same beginner questions every single day. 

Especially related to Yunnan Sourcing the option to buy at sample quantity is a main benefit of using such a source type.  You can buy a couple of dozen samples for the same price as buying a lot of just a few kinds of tea, which you may not like.  Per gram value isn't as good, but it's not a great value buying a tea you don't want to drink.

It would sound as if I've moved on to narrow down sources that work even better for me, and I guess that's fair.

Higher end producer direct sites:  there aren't many of these.  Wuyi Origin is a main example, ran by a family member--as a frontperson--by Cindy Chen, selling great quality Wuyi Yancha, Fujian black tea, and Dan Cong, Chaozhou oolong.  Usually a source selling a broad range is a bad sign, because then they're typically just reselling wholesale outlet sourced teas, or else Taobao sourced versions, but that vendor has family in both places (Wuyishan, Fujian and Chaozhou, Guangdong).

I would buy tea from them, but I've drifted into preference for sheng pu'er.  It happens to people.  They're a fantastic source for really good quality oolong and black teas, which are great ranges for almost everyone.  But tea that good is on the costly side, typically above 30 or 40 cents per gram, with many at 60 or so.  That's still a great value, given that other "curator" sources would sell the same quality level versions for around $1 / gram instead.  

I did just buy tea from a Thai producer, which is another example of a different form of producer-direct sourcing, but I'll list that in the next section.

Gopaldhara is a good example of a Darjeeling garden that sells directly, both within India and outside it (through two different pages).  Their teas are exceptional; they fit the "higher end" description in this category heading.  There are other resale outlets that buy and distribute Indian teas, like Vahdam and Golden Tips, and those are ok too, but buying directly is generally better.  You can find better tea and better values.

really good first and second flush versions from Gopaldhara, reviewed in 2020

Curator sources:  there are a few different variations of these, and they kind of run together with ordinary broad type online sources.  A favorite I recommend is Trident Bookseller and Cafe, in Boulder.  They evolved to source award winning and otherwise amazing versions over time, to sell in-house, and eventually expanded that to limited online sales.  They don't push to expand volume, to contend with other larger outlets; it supplements their other business themes and income streams.

Value is great through them; for what they sell the pricing is really low.  That's only possible because they're a lot more producer direct than almost any other sources.  In a sense they're doing what Tealet had set out to do more than a decade ago, but left off at becoming just another wholesale vendor instead (which is fine; that's the model that ended up working).   I suppose their business model might be problematic, for ramping up volume and earnings.  Trying to sell the best teas at a good value would cut into your potential profit margin, and it might be hard to really ramp up volume.

Why do you never hear of a source like Trident then?  In part due to gatekeeping; people wouldn't mention it to help prevent ruining their own source.  In part because their existing consumer base is probably limited.  And then they don't use a lot of standard broad-form advertising to help with exposure, as a larger volume oriented source like Rishi does.

Other curator or specialty themed vendors are out there, but I can't mention any related to using them as a source.  Floating Leaves for Taiwanese oolongs gets mentioned as an example, but again I've not purchased anything from them.  A good quality curator source in the US would need to sell at high market value just to profit, so their teas would end up all being priced around $1 / gram, which I can't afford.  In terms of old-school, established outlets Tea Habitat has been a known Dan Cong vendor for a long time, since US tea enthusiast circles first came to be back in the early 2000s.  

An example of an established online vendor who blurs this line, with that of an ordinary mixed-types source, might be Seven Cups.  They started as a Wuyishan area main source, and probably retain that focus, but as I recall they were positioned in between the range of curator (selling the best versions at high cost) and an ordinary source (more average quality, selling for less to emphasize value).  This really could be the sweet spot for a lot of people.

Why would you buy tea from them, if you could get better versions for less through Wuyi Origin?  I suppose you wouldn't, if that were true, and you knew about it.  But they would carry more range, and at some point people find sources they like and stop looking.  They don't always want to make it their life's mission to buy the best teas for the best value; they just want to be able to order good tea for good value.  

Most people also aren't going to read 2000 or so word blog post about the subject, which is fine, very understandable.

Where I buy tea (mostly this year, as an example)

I'll use where I've been buying tea as an example, starting with kind of an anomaly.

Rishi / larger outlets:  I only bought two versions from them this year, Thai and Lao sheng versions (pu'er, if that was from Yunnan, but lacking any type name if from South East Asia).  I kept wondering what their versions were like, so finally just ordered some to see (even though they don't represent where I usually buy tea).  They were ok.  They don't hold up well in competition from producer direct sources, but then that's kind of a main running theme here, that you get the best value buying as directly as possible, or from specialized vendors, when possible from sources outside the US.

They would still be fine for buying decent value, higher volume, broad type range, surely better than the average mall outlet that might be nearby.  There aren't that many mall outlets nearby now, since many malls failed in the US, and Teavana folded (was bought by Starbucks, then largely shelved).  

Some of Rishi's other sheng could be better than what I tried; it probably is.  You can't judge a source or a producer from one or two tea versions.  Or a tea type; you see that happen a lot in online discussion, and it just doesn't work.

Wawee Tea / direct Thai sourcing:  oddly I'm not mentioning this as a good option for most readers; they typically wouldn't sell directly outside of Thailand.  But I've just bought really exceptional Thai sheng and black tea from them, and reviewed both here.  

That's a normal, running theme in South East Asian countries; you can buy local versions from very small outlets, or even good sized producers, that wouldn't be readily available / Western facing, through Facebook pages and such.  

Thailand has two online shopping platforms, variations of Amazon or Ebay, in Shopee and Lazada.  Existing small vendors would often sell their teas through there.  There would be even more such sources in Vietnam, another favorite broad origin for me, so let's move on to a Western facing outlet from there next.  I should mention first that 101 Plantation is an example of a main, high volume producer in Thailand, for buying rolled oolong and such, and my favorite Chinatown shop is Jip Eu.  You could buy their teas through Shopee, I think (both of them), but not from abroad.

Viet Sun:  I've bought the most tea from Viet Sun over the past 3 or 4 years, of any source.  They're "Western facing," meaning set up for international shipping, and in the past for credit card payment use, although they mentioned preferring other payment options when I last ordered from them, just a month and a half ago.  Their teas are great.  

Y Ty (Lao Cai) indigenous village produced Viet Sun sheng (reviewed here)

these are so complex that they seem a little different every time I try them

There's a common theme among new, great value, new format vendors that they tend to sell range that's hard to find at great pricing, then later as demand catches up it's more in a normal Western market range.  Their sheng cakes might be priced from $80 to $120 now, or 200 gram versions for half of that; just normal price range, for lots of outlet types.  That would've been $60 to 80 3 or 4 years ago.  Part of that is inflation, and a lot is demand for that supplied tea bumping up.  I doubt that any of it is them increasing their mark-up rate, although that's at least possible.  People find out about types ranges and sources, then demand increases, and costs, starting at producers demanding more.  Usually quality becomes a little more consistent too, so better value is filled in a little on the other end, maybe just not enough to offset higher pricing.

Hatvala had been the earlier more market oriented source I used from Vietnam, and they're still there, and would still be a good source.  That change related in part to me switching to pu'er preference.  They sell some Vietnamese sheng, as maocha (loose versions), but Viet Sun specializes in it, and seeks out a broader range of perhaps more novel offerings.

Back to Thai themes:  Tea Side would be "our" equivalent source.  Their pricing is probably higher than either of these two Vietnamese sources, perhaps related to them leaning into the mark-up a bit more than is the case for those two Vietnamese sources.  As a unique source option whatever they set is the standard market price, because there aren't alternatives.  You have to by sheng for 40 or 50 cents a gram instead of 25 or 30 if there aren't any other options, or just don't buy it.  Maybe it's that limited production at the quality range they sell pushes that same theme "up" a level, and those few higher quality option producers can keep demanding more, as I said was probably now occurring in Vietnam.

Let's check on that, by reference to their pages and offerings.

These are Viet Sun's brand new cake offerings, selling for $45 to 53 for 200 gram versions, so for between just under $90 per standard 357 gram size--which they don't sell--and around $100 on the higher side.  That's actually not bad; that tea is better than just about any Western source version for $100 per standard cake size.

Tea Side's 200 gram cakes are selling for $65 to 85, based on the first four listings, for 32 cents to 42 cents per 100 grams, or $115 to $150 per 357 gram cake quantity.  Is it better than Viet Sun's versions?  I really don't know; it has been awhile since I tried it.  Maybe only equivalent, based on what I last tried however long ago, maybe 5 years back or more.

For someone less concerned about value, about price per gram, and for whom spending a few hundred dollars on tea isn't that much of an expense, then buying a good bit of both teas would make sense, and comparing the two.  It's not like when you order too much fresh green tea, and then a half a year later it's not as good.  Oolongs hold up well to even a couple of years of storage, and sheng changes in ways that are often seen as improvements, as hei cha do.

To me these types of teas evolve well over the first two years, even for styles that aren't favorable for even middle time frame aging, transitioning some over 6 to 8 years.  You can't really buy a 200 gram cake and plan to drink some and then keep some for 20 years, to see a full transition, or at least if you did there wouldn't be much for either consumption purpose.  

I personally wouldn't age these styles of teas anyway (SE Asian sheng, in general).  I tend to only ever experience such teas as 10 or so year old versions, and we can't be sure that the styles from 20 years ago were identical.

Here are some examples of how that has went in practice; reviewing a 2014 Wawee Tea Thai sheng version, and a 2017 version, in 2023, so 6 and 9 year old versions.  Those teas were good, and not really through a more complete 20 to 25 year transition cycle just yet, so it was early to judge them.  This review covers two 2006 Hong Tai Chang versions, reviewed in 2018, with one from Tea Side, so those two were a dozen years old then, just a little further along.  One of those I own a cake of, unless I've got the version wrong, and it's a similar one.  Not so much of it is left now, but I have some I could try as a 20 year old tea.  It's fine, but it would be better if I was more into aged sheng.

I think I'm really referencing three different styles of tea.  The old HTC versions were made by a foreign (Thai) based Chinese producer back then, and Wawee Tea was making their own versions, without direct outside input, back in 2014 to 2017.  The plant material may be the same today, the same exact plants, but we can't be sure that the style is exactly the same.  Presumably they would've only improved processing over time, but there could've been some style shift, to being just different, versus better.  For "better" we need to include "better how," better to drink as new tea or more suitable for 20+ year aging.

Even if someone tries all of these teas just mentioned, as I have, it's difficult to say exactly what you are experiencing is better, worse, or different in style a decade later.  In this writing in 2015 I'm reviewing 2004 Thai "pu'er-style" versions, again from Tea Side, but I can't place how much my own perspective on the same teas has varied in 11 years.  So we make of it what we can.

Unconventional but standard vendor sources:  Tea Mania is the main source that comes to mind related to this (based in Switzerland; that's different).  

That vendor has shared samples with me a couple of times over the last few years, and I've bought more tea from them than from almost any source over the past decade, probably more in total than from Viet Sun.  Not so much recently, because I've been focusing on South East Asian versions and sources.  The styles coming out of Thailand, Vietnam, and Lao have become personal favorites.  Myanmar teas are great too; I've tried a good bit of those, and still own some, some of which has been aging at home for around a decade.

Tea Mania is one of the best sources online, per my judgment, even if only based on their Lucky Bee value oriented Yiwu cakes line.  Their other gushu range versions are more exceptional, of course, but not in terms of value, of quality and pleasantness in relation to prices.  You just can't buy decent Yiwu at low prices.

Tea Mania 2021 Jing Mai and 2022 Yiwu sheng pu'er

Since the main theme here is where I've been buying tea recently I might mention some tea that's in-transit.  I bought a couple of value oriented cakes from Chen Sheng Hao, after reviewing a cool sample set of mini cakes from them a couple of years ago.  Those were higher end, more exceptional teas, but I can't really be buying 50 to 80 cent per gram versions, so this order was about following up on someone commenting online that their lower cost blends are really good.  We'll see; I'll be writing about that a couple of times over the next few weeks.

Some other vendors have been sending me tea that fall into this range.  By "unconventional" I mean outside the normal Yunnan Sourcing / Crimson Lotus / etc., etc. paradigm.  You don't tend to see Chen Sheng Hao mentioned in places like the Reddit r/tea recommended vendors list.  Oriental Leaf, a vendor based in China, sent some exceptional hei cha versions over the past couple of years, novel variations of Fu zhuan or Fu brick teas; they work as another example.  Or Legend of Tea, a Malaysia based vendor, sent some Liu Bao and sheng to review, and they're probably as good a source as any for aged Liu Bao.

Oriental Leaf Fu zhuan hei cha (based on white tea)

     

Atypical naming stands out about one of those sources; the term "oriental" fell out of favor in "the West" about 15 years ago, regarded as pejorative (as negative).  Here in Bangkok they don't keep up with that kind of political correctness; businesses still use that term in business names, and the average person wouldn't be aware of that change.  But then people mostly only use English as a second language, which changes things.

It could seem odd to buy tea from abroad, in other countries than where it is from, from vendors who aren't producer sources.  But it would make sense to, if they could source better tea than standard US or European vendors are selling, and sell it for less than those places.  You would be "getting in on" lower local pricing in other markets, in this case in China and Malaysia.  Shipping would add extra cost, but it costs money to ship within one country, so it's only adding the difference between that and international shipping.  If it's $20 more then buying at volume could offset that, by a lot.

Let's add a reviewed example of that, from one of those sources, from Legend of Tea (out of Malaysia) to make that point clearer:

Legend of Tea 2024 Mengsong sheng pu'er (reviewed in this blog here in 2025)

This tea sells for 118 RM (Malaysian Ringgit), which is equivalent to $29, for a 200 gram cake.  That price looks like a citation mistake, doesn't it?  3 or 4 years ago it would've been more normal.  Their description:

This year's Xiao Ba Wang is sourced from ecological tea trees in the high mountains of Mengsong Da Man Lü, this sheng Pu-erh boasts a fresh, sweet aroma complemented by the distinctive alpine forest fragrance. Its naturally refreshing profile is soft, sweet, and intricately layered, offering a gentle yet rich tea-drinking experience. Each sip reveals a long-lasting sweetness with a refreshing, full-bodied aroma that lingers delightfully.

That's $50-some for a 357 gram amount that sounds like Yunnan Sourcing's higher end $110-120 or so current Impression cakes.  My review notes adds my impression:

#2:  depth and complexity pick up.  Bitterness starts, but that's still moderate.  Mineral undertone is pronounced, of course in a light mineral range, nothing like in Wuyi Yancha or other roasted oolongs.  Flavor seems to include floral tones, and a creamy sort of feel is adjoined by a touch of creamy flavor.  Sounds like oolong range, doesn't it?  But the feel structure of this is sheng, and the included bitterness, even if it's not challenging...

#4:  more of the same; it isn't changing quickly.  Aftertaste and bitterness may both dial up slightly.  Intensity is definitely good, and again the balance and overall effect is nice, the lack of flaws.  Flavor range doesn't extend to anything so interesting, but it comes across as good tea, pleasant and intense.  

I think I'm feeling the effects already... 

So it was pretty good, which I was characterizing as on the basic side, because I'd been drinking a good bit of distinctive, high quality, kind of expensive gushu around then, teas more in the 80 cents a gram range, $150+ for 200 gram cakes instead of $30.  

I've tried that since, and it's pretty good tea, relatively speaking.  It's much, much better than any standard factory tea; maybe two full levels above that.  I mean in relation to Dayi 7542, and also to many others that don't have the external image of being benchmark versions.  For $50-some for a standard size cake it's underpriced by a lot; from just about any other sources it would cost closer to $100, or maybe over that.

What are standard vendor sources then?

This last category description raises a question:  if those are unconventional exceptions, as sources go, what are the most conventional options?

Yunnan Sourcing comes to mind, but that's only a conventional, standard option related to a category, to what I'm calling a market style vendor, one who sells many produce categories and product versions (thousands, in their China based site, and still a lot in their US site).

For pu'er other main vendors are Farmerleaf, White 2 Tea, Crimson Lotus, and Bitterleaf (beyond King Tea Mall and Chawang Shop being good options, again what I'm calling market style vendors).  They would "only" sell a few dozen versions at any given time, a good selection, but limited enough that you could page through it.  

Rishi, which I mentioned, and Adagio are examples of older form, generalist, medium quality, higher volume outlets.  There's nothing wrong with preferring some relatively conventional rolled oolong, or whatever else might seem a bit standard.  People often like some teas as a comfort tea, or to drink with food, and preferences change over time.

To me Teasenz is a good example of a generalist vendor, based out of China, one who sells a little of different things, that is well-regarded and a good value.  Why them, when there are probably 100 relatively similar outlets online?  It's just an example I'm familiar with, and they've put the time in to be somewhat established as a known brand.  I've bought tea from them at least a couple of times, and it was good, nothing too amazing, but good for what it was represented as.  Actually a shai hong pressed cake I bought in 2017 was well beyond that, this tea; they could also find versions that stand out.

Really there aren't standard generalist vendors, typically.  One builds up an image related to a main theme and type range, if at all (like Yunomi for Japanese teas, or those other pu'er vendors already mentioned).  In some cases they grow to be well-regarded standard options, but more often their businesses just succeed, and they do a little better year to year.

Viet Sun Y Ty air dried 2026 black tea and Wawee Tea 2026 black

 

Viet Sun T Ty black on the left, in all photos

Continuing on with Vietnamese and Thai themes I've been covering, this time it's about Viet Sun and Wawee Tea black teas.  These two versions were really exceptional.  I mean so good.  Enough with the spoilers; I'll cite some product details from their sites (or for Wawee, I'll try to turn up a Facebook page post info), and get to the review.

Y Tý Air Dried Black Spring 2026  ($21 for 100 grams, $47.50 for 250)

A really nice black tea made in the hot air dried style from one of our favorite tea areas, Y Tý.

Made from medium, old and ancient trees in the Dao village, this tea brews up into a rich copper red soup. Floral, sweet, with a malty chocolate, honey character and a low-medium roast. Rich mouthfeel and long finish.

Season: April 2026

Picking Standard: 1 bud, 2-3 leaves

Region: Y Tý, Lào Cai

Elevation: 1300-1800mn

Would that really have a low-medium roast input, versus just a moderate amount of oxidation?  It doesn't matter.  I probably should have read between the lines and ordered that instead of the sun-dried version that I just reviewed.  It is really nice.  The other might change for the better, given that style, but this one might still gain some depth, and it's really nice now.

Related to value around 21 cents a gram is pretty fair as pricing goes now.  Awhile back you could buy pretty decent Dian Hong for 15 cents a gram or less, but I would imagine that has shifted, as all tea pricing has.  You would be lucky to buy tea this good at whatever price it is.

There is no information post on the Wawee Tea Facebook page, as there had been for the sheng version.  It's Thai material black tea; that's all that you need to know.  I'm describing it as being made in a style similar to Yunnan Dian Hong, but that kind of judgement doesn't add much.  That generaliztion comes across differently in relation to this other Vietnamese version being a dead ringer for Dian Hong character, and flavor aspect range.

I can share their FB page cake wrapper, since it seems I forgot to take a picture of that:

That pricing relates to about $30 for 200 grams, so $15 for 100 grams instead of 21 for the Viet Sun version.  But that's Thai pricing; Viet Sun is a Western facing vendor instead.  As with the Viet Sun whether you buy the tea for 15 or 21 cents a gram you are still lucky if the tea is this good.  There are plenty of vendors out there selling teas nowhere near this good for 50 to 70 cents a gram, either making up stories to back that, or maybe some interesting stories are real, but the tea still isn't this nice.

Review:

Viet Sun Y Ty:  this is really more what I have in mind related to Dian Hong style teas, than the sun dried version I just had.  But then those pick up intensity with age, and tend to be oxidized a little less initially, so it's not fair comparing two brand new versions.  This is still really nice.

A pleasant roasted sweet potato note stands out, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to interpret the rest as tasting like cacao, but that's a judgement call.  Sweetness is good, and feel is fine, even though it's barely getting started.  It's going to be hard for the Thai version to compare well to this.

Wawee Tea black:  this is holding its own, so far.  It's completely different.  Tones are much warmer, and flavor complexity is harder to unpack; it's not just a couple of very pleasant main notes.  Dark cherry is part of it, and something like a cured wood or incense spice tone.  Often when I'm mentioning that it's about a limitation in the flavor set, but it works well in this.  It has a lot of depth, especially for just getting started.  Maybe some of the other range is spice oriented, even towards root spice or medicinal spice.  A warm mineral base is pleasant.

If judging at this stage which I like better, which is still too early to call, I'd have to go with the first version.  That standard, pleasant, well-balanced Dian Hong style is a personal favorite.  But the Thai version expresses more depth and complexity, so far, and everything it expresses is pleasant.  This should be a great comparison tasting.

I've got the proportion wrong, including less of the loose Vietnamese version, because it's hard to judge when one is loose and the other compressed.  I'll add a touch more, which will throw off how the transition cycle plays out over the next round or two.  I usually work around that by adding what looks normal to me, and it always veers back to 8 grams or so, but I tried to back off the proportion of the first, and didn't do so in the same way for the second.

VS Y Ty #2:  roasted sweet potato and cacao stand out again.  Or maybe that's yam instead, or maybe it's transitioning from sweet potato to yam.  You get the idea.  Mineral depth is pleasant; that really gives it balance.  A somewhat high sweetness level also works well with the rest.  Feel is nice, with decent fullness.  It's not dry but it also doesn't lack some feel structure.  A warmer and heavier flavor edge tastes like a touch of coffee, which mixes with the mineral range, and supports the rest.  It's really good.

Wawee:  it changed quite a bit; I would've expected that.  It's picking up a brandy-like flavor input, which is more or less the dominant flavor already.  Another part tastes like a bark spice, just not cinnamon.  Warmer mineral gives those pronounced flavors balance.  There is still fruit, more or less still in the range of dried black cherry, but it's secondary to the other range now.  Just a touch of tartness integrates well with that particular fruit range.  Ordinarily pronounced tartness makes black tea unpleasant, to me, but in a very limited amount it can be good, especially when it integrates well with the rest.

This tea is more intense than the other; the taste is stronger, and it carries over to aftertaste more.  It spans more range; it's more complex as well.  The other expresses a little more depth; there's something about it that seems to convey a deeper, more grounded taste experience.  Maybe that relates to the mineral input, or maybe it's an emergent effect that's mainly in my own interpretation, instead of the aspects themselves.

It occurs to me to keep mentioning how I like both in comparison to each other round to round; usually reviews never include that.  The Thai tea might be better in a couple of senses but the Vietnamese version really matches a style I love, so I'd go with that.  I would guess that this Thai tea is far from finished though, that it will keep evolving and changing, and will brew a long cycle, so it may seem better in one or two more senses before it's over.

back in this Bangkok home tasting space

Ina, that Siamese cat, has a cool look, but all of our cats do

VS Y Ty #3:  the warmer tones shift a little; what had been mineral and a vague earthy input changed to be closer to leather.  In a good sense; the warm and sweet tone of a new bomber jacket material, not the musty and harsher scent of older horse saddle.  Cacao stands out more than ever.  Flavor intensity is kind of in a normal range, but depth adds to the experience, in a way that's hard to describe.  For people who drink Dian Hong (Yunnan black tea) that description would already be quite familiar.  

Wawee:  fruit picks up.  It's still black cherry, but it has expanded quite a bit in range, so it's that plus something else, or more than one other thing (a little citrus enters in, and something like butternut squash flavor joins the rest).  The tartness has almost entirely dropped out.  The form of that fruit is intense, sweet, and complex, taking on a fruit roll-up sort of character.  

Incense / bark spice and mineral tone have moved into a supporting flavors role.  At this point the Wawee tea is better, per my subjective judgment, and I suppose if one tried to claim some sort of objective assessment form probably better in that sense too.  Compression level was too high in a version of this I bought 2 or 3 years ago, which really did impact the experience of it, but they've got it just right for this cake, loose enough that it comes apart easily using a pu'er knife (or pick, or whatever, maybe even just your fingers).

I've been brewing these relatively quickly, because the intensity was fine for that for both.  I might go a little longer to see what changes, from 10 seconds or so up to more than 15, or close to 20.

These are both really exceptional black teas.  I've tried some pretty good black tea versions over the past few years and both hold their own with any of it.  I've tried a lot more range over the decade prior to that, or even 15 years, but it's harder to use older experiences as a reference.

VS Y Ty #4:  it really didn't change much, for being brewed just a little longer.  Heavier mineral flavor input occurs; that's normal.  Feel comes across as thicker and richer, but it was already ok anyway.  The feel hasn't been exceptional, but the range was positive, and it supported the overall experience.  It contributes some aftertaste experience, broadening the overall effect, but not so much.  

The main positive is that the flavor range is a personal favorite, and there is nothing like a flaw in this.  Flavor intensity could be higher, but a black tea version expressing limited complexity and intensity but good depth seems to also work, for me.  The flavors a tea does express need to be what one likes, and to match well, in such a case, but that's true for me for this.  I could probably drink a kilogram of this tea, and not tire of it.

I'm probably making this sound like a basic, simple, limited intensity tea version more than really applies to it.  It is expressing some roasted sweet potato or yam flavor, something along the line of cinnamon, and depth that reminds me of root spice, along with pleasant mineral range.  It only seems to lack complexity and intensity in comparison with the other version, which is an unusually strong and complex tea.

Wawee:  the fruit effect changed again.  Now it's closer to elderberry, an interesting range.  It is a stronger tea, across most dimensions.  Flavor range is stronger, flavor complexity is broader, feel is more pronounced, and aftertaste expression is much stronger.  In part that could be because it's from better tea plant material, but it's also more completely oxidized (it seems; the leaves are a little darker, and it brews darker).  I'm not saying that to move on to claiming that the other Vietnamese tea has more aging potential, but it probably does.  It could also just be a different style.

For people into free-associating a mix of different flavor aspects there's a lot for starting points in this Thai tea version.  I do enough of that in these text reviews, but when I drink tea for my own experience only I just go quiet, and accept the experience without analysis.

This is probably a good point to leave off with notes.  These will shift a little more over two more infusions, probably with the Thai version changing more, and maintaining more intensity.  Both teas will be similar though.  

Trying the next round confirmed this.  The Thai tea is finally losing just a little intensity, and it took a round off transitioning in flavor character, with the Vietnamese tea holding up to the same earlier level of intensity and depth.  It might be that the Vietnamese tea can keep going longer for brewing out slower, that the trade-off for the Thai version was that the first 4 or 5 infusions might be better (in a limited sense; preference determines that), and stronger, but that it can't keep that up for as long.

Both are great.  Anyone would be lucky to cross paths with one of these teas.

I'm reminded of holding a tea tasting a decade or so ago, letting the guests try a black tea like one of these.  One commented that they didn't know that they liked black tea until they had that experience.  I looked back through posts to see when that was; it was here, in 2017 (and it was a Farmerleaf sun-dried Dian Hong).  I had covered a lot of ground by then, in four years of writing this blog.

In case it seems that I'm exaggerating these experiences, that every tea is just fantastic all of the time, I can point out that the last two sheng that I tried were quite good, high in quality level, distinctive, and positive, but more limited in relation to a match to my own preference.  Now with these black teas we're back to everything being just great, including that part. 

I have more ordinary versions of tea on the way; that will shift again.  In an online discussion someone mentioned that a standard, budget oriented, blended version was pretty good, from a producer I had tried teas from before, so I'll be covering a little of that range soon.  Not really low cost factory tea, but towards that theme.

one of the two other cats

Timmie with her sister

Wawee Tea 2026 sheng (Thai pu'er-style tea)

 

I'm reviewing a tea version that's an old favorite, Thai sheng from Wawee Tea.  It's what Thai sheng should be:  high in quality level, made from great material, distinctive, pleasant in flavor, and intense.  There probably isn't much tea coming out of Thailand like this, and essentially no other versions I'd probably like more (although Aphiwat's is really nice too).  

I love the style.  Others might or might not; it would just depend on preference.

There's not a website post to cite, but I can mention their Facebook page post about it, from their FB page:

The long dry spell from winter to April has resulted in this year's tea having a richer, more fragrant flavor.

The tea wrapping paper features tribal patterns from the villagers of Wawei, who are the main workforce helping us harvest the tea leaves.

Raw Pu-erh Tea (生普洱), Spring Tea Season 2026

100% from large-tree tea (古樹茶)

200 gram compressed cake

990 THB per cake, 5 cakes in a bamboo bundle 4,950 THB

It seems like I should be gatekeeping this.  They don't sell overseas anyway, per my understanding, so I guess mentioning this is for Thais, or people who live "here" (since I'm in Bangkok again now).

Them selling that for around $30 for a 200 gram cake is an example of local Thai pricing; in a Western facing outlet it would be more.  I just bought pretty good Vietnamese tea for around double that from Viet Sun, and this tea holds its own against that.  Maybe in terms of my preference I like it a little more; it is a personal favorite.  

At least my blog is read by a lot more AI bots than humans; that will help reduce the potential exposure impact.  Maybe I won't share links to this as much to keep going in that direction.

Review:

First infusion:  a little strong, because I gave this over 30 seconds to get it started, so I'm not writing about how it will really open up next round.  It's good.  There's plenty of fruit flavor, some vegetal range, and a good bit of astringency structure, but of the right type.  Bitterness stands out.  This is just how it should start.  It'll work better to do a flavor list and say more about the rest next round, in a typical faster infusion.

Make no mistake though, you can tell this is really nice right away.  Intensity is right, sweetness is great, and flavor range is just what you would hope for.  You don't find teas like this by accident.  Years of looking in the right kind of places have to come together, after looking in the wrong kinds of places.  You can frame that as karma if you like, that spiritual forces are looking out for you.  It doesn't change much if you do.

Second infusion:  a 5 second infusion brews just as strong; that's how this should be.  Intensity stands out most.  At times you run across older plant source material that's more subtle, but with great depth, that's really approachable, but that lasts for lots of infusions, and changes in positive ways.  This isn't that.  It's intense from the start.  Fruit stands out, it's just hard to say which.  It's along the line of lychee or mango, or it could be a sweet form of pineapple.  

Vegetal flavor is there, a green wood sort of range, or maybe that could map to something else, like bitter melon.  I've been eating a lot of bitter melon, from our garden in Honolulu, and you mostly taste bitterness from that.  This is bitter, but to me the type and level is great.

Depth, intensity, balance, aftertaste expression; it's all great.  To be clear this is at least partly because I already love their style of tea.  I've drank at least a couple of cakes of this, and it's fantastic getting back to it.  I like it young too, like this, not necessarily transitioned by age, but this would be really good over the next few years, as it keeps changing.  

If I tasted the same green wood / vegetal input in a different context I wouldn't like it.  But to me it integrates perfectly with the rest, and adds to a very intense overall experience, that is just how it should be.  I've been drinking some of Aphiwat's tea as 2 or 3 year old versions, ones I've had around, and it's much approachable after the transition, but I don't like it as much.  It's down to personal preference.  

I finished this round a couple of minutes ago and the sweetness really lingers along my tongue, that had transitioned from bitterness; it's partly about that.  You can emphasize this kind of experience by drinking water between rounds; it comes across as very sweet.  But it's also nice to let the experience build up in your sense of taste, getting stronger and stronger.

Third infusion:  I can't really unpack that fruit input more; it's still either lychee or mango, but seemingly a mix of a lot of related tropical fruit input.  Warmth seems to pick up a little.  Sweetness and intensity are still great, of course.  This really hits your palate hard, in a good way.  Only a sheng drinker would love this bitterness level as I do.  Some sheng is even more bitter, but this is pronounced.

To me this is the kind of tea you can have every day for as long as you want, for weeks.  The experience is so positive that it doesn't get old.  I suppose that has more to do with a status of being a favorite than how general character themes play out.  

A good black tea is much more approachable, and in some sense it would make more sense with food.  I'll very often have this kind of tea with food, intense young Thai sheng, along the line of what I ate today, scrambled eggs with spinach and a Thai vegetable plant leaf, and a mix of orange, banana, and papaya.  More often I'll add a starch input, a croissant or some other pastry, but lately I've been letting that drop.  Yogurt with the fruit is also nice, and that protects your stomach.  I feel ok without having included it, just now.

Fourth infusion:  warm tones might pick up further, and this might be even more intense.  I walked around looking for the cat between infusions, noticing that the aftertaste never really drops out, it stays with you.  

Fifth infusion:  this isn't changing much, and certainly isn't fading.  Feel might be picking up some extra richness, and the fruit has transitioned to a slightly different complex fruit range.  It's a little towards that juicyfruit gum flavor.  It would make sense for a natural interpretation to include citrus, a bright version of it, in between lemon and tangerine.  Or maybe just to see it as tangerine.  Intensity is still nice, but that depends on someone loving bitterness--at this level--and intensity.

they were running free all morning, but she was messing with them a little too

they're all so cute, but that darkened face look is really something

Sixth infusion:  I haven't mentioned an inconsistency in the coloration of the leaves.  Parts were probably left exposed to wither longer, or may have been crushed while being picked, leading to faster oxidation.  Or inconsistent heating could roast some a little.  The two effects would be different, and if both occurred then complexity would enter in, which I guess someone could interpret as coming at a cost.  But the complexity of this tea is a strength, as I see it.  Intensity definitely also is; if those somewhat atypical inputs changed character they certainly didn't limit how intense the experience is.  They might even give it a nice balance.

It could have more warm range than it ordinarily should, for at this age.  But that's a good thing; it all matches and integrates well.  It's definitely not missing brighter range, or sweetness.  I drank a cake that was a lot like this pretty fast 2 or 3 years ago, from them, loving it so much that half my tea drinking rotation was that version.

Seventh infusion:  this is finally losing a little intensity, but that really only brings it into a more normal range.  I'm still brewing it really fast, around 5 seconds.  I've pushed the infusion proportion, which is normal for me, maybe at 8 grams for a 100 ml gaiwan, or it could even be 9.

Warmth picks up.  That has been a gradual trend for the past 4 or 5 infusions.  Feel structure is really nice, less sharp and edgy than initially, but it was never really negative.  Now it's richer, more full, but still intense.  

Fruit is pretty heavy on citrus.  I'm surely missing a lot of potential association for the flavors; this is complex.  Mineral effect probably keeps shifting.  That's probably a lot of what is causing me to perceive that the tone as warming.  It was probably bright and lighter mineral range earlier on, and now it's on to warmer tones, not completely unlike tasting a copper penny.  Probably an interpretation of the main range as including floral tone is reasonable, maybe jasmine.

Eighth infusion:  I let this go for over 15 seconds to try it stronger, but I think I know how that will work out.  It's just a little more intense, and back to potentially challenging.  Astringency pairs with a mineral tone in a way that's a bit much, but the effect is still quite pleasant.  It's this kind of intensity that differentiates pu'er from other tea types.  You can't brew other types to draw it out at this level even if you wanted to, and with young sheng you are often brewing around it, using different form to limit it.  It's delicious, and the overall experience is great.

This is exactly how I hoped this tea would be.  It's nice when it works out like that.  In some cases teas can be even better than you hoped, more novel, or positive in a different way, but I wouldn't want this to be different in any way.

Ninth infusion:  some of this tea seems to be exhibiting the "brewed out" green wood bitterness and astringency aspect, but it seems like different leaves that are processed differently might be transitioning and reacting differently.  It's still quite good, but that will probably keep picking up, and it will be less pleasant after the next couple of rounds.  It has been a nice infusion cycle though.

I did drink this tea again the next day, the day I'm editing this.  It was nice not giving any thought to a flavor list breakdown, or other aspects, and just enjoying it.