Thai and Vietnamese black tea and sheng pu'er at a Bangkok meetup

 

it wasn't this meetup; I forgot to take a picture (but this is Seth and Huyen)

I finally hosted people for a tea meetup this weekend, trying some really nice teas, that went well together as a set.  The main focus was on Thailand and Vietnam origins, but the two last versions didn't fit this post heading description at all, as aged Yunnan sheng (2004 from Dayi / Taetea), and 2020 Fu hei cha.  I took no pictures of the event or participants; that's an oversight.

The sequence of teas worked out well.  The people joining were in a good place to appreciate them, so discussion was pleasant, including range beyond tea.  This will leave those parts out, and focus on the teas, and why the order made sense.  That last part is a lot of the meaning here, about how trying a diverse range of teas can really inform the experience of everything in the set, more than a narrower theme.

In one sense these were all really good quality teas, and pleasant versions, and in another sense just basics range.  It's interesting how that works out.

101 Plantation Thai Oriental Beauty:  I've reviewed a lot of these teas, some recently, with this one reviewed here.  It's a pleasant, drinkable, very approachable place to start, tasting like honey, citrus, and cinnamon as OB tends to.  This version is pretty far up the scale as quality level for Thai OB goes, one of the better versions that I've tried.  

rolled leaf form OB on the left

That said, it still includes just a bit of green wood flavor input, and some of those positive flavors could be a little more intense, so it's just on the pretty good side of the Taiwanese range, better than average, but not comparable to the best of the best.  Which is still pretty good.  Given the price is moderate all that adds up to a cue for Thai local tea enthusiasts to order it online as soon as they hear about it, because it won't be around long.

Wawee Tea black tea:  I love this tea, which is kind of a main running theme across these versions, that they're what I like, just now and in general.  It includes plenty of cacao and fruit, with warm floral tones, and no tartness, which to me detracts from the overall experience.  The balance, sweetness level, and intensity are good, beyond that flavor profile being quite pleasant.  

I reviewed this tea in comparison with the next one we tried from Viet Sun in this post; strange it worked out that way.  I already mentioned loving both tea versions; it relates to that.  That detailed description doesn't exactly match what I'm saying here about these teas; so it can go, that you can really zero in on specifics in a combined tasting, spending an hour on just experiencing two tea versions, versus drinking them in other ways.

It's not so far off a standard Dian Hong style.  By that I mean that it includes a lot of warm mineral range and depth, and even though I've described it as including bright, intense, forward flavors--or at least that seems implied to me, as I read this.  It is as much about that depth as it is the forward range.  Which works well for me; I like that style.  With any tea experience there's an emergent "how good?" effect that relates as much to match to preference as any of these aspects or styles that I describe.  This tea version works really well for me.

Viet Sun Vietnamese black tea (Y Tý Air Dried Black Spring 2026; probably sold out now, that's generally how that goes).  

This version smells really sweet, and lots like cacao, with fruit notes coming in beyond that, and it is really intense.  It switches that focus on depth, or equal balance with warmer, deeper tones, for that blast of cacao and fruit.  But it balances just as well, just in a completely different way.  Flavors are really pronounced and clean, without a hint of anything negative, or any flaw.  This is a fantastic version of this style and form of tea.  The guests could really relate to both, and to the difference between them.  But it was time to shift theme.

Wawee Tea sheng pu'er (or since it's Thai tea just sheng, or however you prefer for designation):  in drinking "light to heavy" it could seem more intuitive to get to this tea first, because the tone is lighter.  It's bright, fresh, and intense, with lighter fruit and floral range, a bit of bitterness, and limited vegetal range.  Sweetness is great, balancing the rest.  It's a great match to what I love in drinkable young sheng, especially that overall intensity.  That's why I had us try this after the black teas instead; it's way more intense than them, even though flavor tones are lighter.  Sometimes people have trouble relating to a balance of bitterness included in a flavor set but everyone present seemed to relate well to this version.  It is approachable, not overly bitter, as some sheng can be.

It made for an interesting discussion point, about how aspects like bitterness and astringency can vary, and about why I describe factory teas as one particular thing, often in somewhat negative terms.  That came up again later, as we tried an aged Dayi (purple label 7542, from 2004).  It goes without saying that lots of teas from factory production tend to be even more intense, and less approachable, sort of "designed" for aging, even though it just works out that way.  The leaf being broken--often--lends to this harsher effect and greater intensity.  Then there's really a divide between the main producers, Dayi / Taetea, CNNP / Zhongcha, and Xiaguan, and how the rest of the smaller producers come across, which is not unified.  But that's a lot to get into here, even at the higher level summary, as we just did.

Viet Sun Y Ty sheng (I think the H'mong version, instead of the Dao):  this is my favorite of the set of Viet Sun teas I bought earlier this year, or at least it was, so it was nice trying it as well.  It's not so far off the Wawee character, but a little more refined in a sense, and intense in a different way.  I suppose the flavor profile is different.  I wasn't trying to clock specific flavor lists in this kind of tasting, especially for going through a lot of brewing details fairly quickly to keep it all moving along.  And we had a nice snack, maybe after this tea version.  There's a good local bakery in the Suan Dusit University, a main branch of the Home Bakery, that makes nice pastries, croissants, and egg tarts, and we had a nice mix.

those two Y Ty origin versions

This was one visitor's favorite; he really connected with these approachable and pleasant sheng.  Bitterness is pretty moderate for both of these versions, and intensity is significant but not challenging.  Flavor sets are pleasant; to me they are easy to relate to.  But again it was time to shift theme.

2004 Dayi / Taetea purple label 7542:  this tea is finally aged to where it should be, after 22 years in hot and humid Bangkok storage, so just a bit ahead of schedule.  It was a huge shift, moving from black tea, then light and approachable sheng, then onto well-aged sheng pu'er.  But it helped that the tea is still intense in terms of positive flavor range, and not challenging in any way.  4 or 5 years ago it would have been.  Of course it tastes like old furniture, old books, or like an old cabin in the woods would smell.  But clean; the hot and humid storage isn't as musty as one might expect.  

Specific storage areas can include that kind of input, a bit of extra fermented cardboard, or cement block.  Getting air contact right helps.  In one sense this might seem to mean very little air contact, since if you set this tea out on a shelf it would go dead.  I store the teas wrapped in either the plastic wrapper they come in, or in multi-layer packaging, or both, and then they're in storage boxes that get opened relatively regularly.  If you only opened a storage box every other month you could limit that extra inner layer of containment.  But it's more common now for people to use mylar sealing envelope type storage to keep them very contained, after conditioning to a desired level of moisture / humidity content.  It's always 70% or more humidity level in Bangkok, so it's fine, in a decent range.

This tea is pretty good; there's more I could say about that.  The people joining seemed to get that.  Where we rushed through the black teas a bit more, saving them for drinking some mixed together for a large cold-brew batch later, we did a couple of extra rounds with this.  I tried keeping proportion moderate for the two younger sheng, using longer infusion times, so we "used up" the potential for those better.  I was brewing two combined infusions ("stacked") from a 200+ ml gaiwan, mixing that to serve as a bit less than 400 ml split by 5 people; a good bit for this kind of tasting theme.

2020 Fu cake (this was the Lincang origin version, reviewed here):  I've taken to including one of two similar Fu hei cha versions, from Oriental Leaf, as a last round for tastings.  It's very different than the rest, no matter what we drink, and heavy in character, but quite approachable.  The uniqueness works well; everyone always loves the tea version, and it's one last eye-opening indicator of how much range tea can cover.  

These versions--there is a second from a different origin that's similar but different--can taste a bit like yeast or fresh bread, extending into a fresh rye or dark rye bread flavors.  There is a touch of citrus and honey from the jin hua / golden flower input.  Depth and complexity are great, and it's all way more approachable than one would expect.  It can be a little bit of a shock trying something so novel so far through a tasting experience, but it's interesting to end on that kind of surprise.

The guests really got the teas.  Two I've met at least a couple of times before, at these tasting meetups.  Two were new to Bangkok, exploring South East Asia, as many guests have been before, a bit transient.  I miss some of those people, or I suppose a lot of them.  I've been lucky to meet so many bright spirited, charming, enthusiastic, and open tea drinkers.  People bringing different perspectives helped discussion extend in interesting directions beyond just focusing on the tea.  

We talked a bit about Thai culture, the local art scene, what temples are like, differences in SE Asian countries, travel, and so on.  The subject of Japanese tea ceremony came up, but it's a lot to fully treat in depth, so as with many other tangents we only brushed through mention of a few points.  It can be problematic for the discussion to feel balanced in covering so much range in such a limited form like that, or some developed tangents can leave some guests out.  In this meetup it all really worked.  Size of the group matters; 5 of us joined, with 5 people either cancelling or being tentative and then not coming, and with 10 people it would've been much harder to manage.

we met inside instead of out here this time; it's a bit warm lately

the other garden space

fence view facing the other way, with a mango hanging, and cat checking out a squirrel

my nemesis; he eats the mango before they're even ready

Huyen and Seth held an epic Vietnam themed tea event in Bangkok

 

The tea community in Bangkok is really coming together, and the event Huyen and Seth, two friends, just held is a small part of that, and also a sign of how the rest goes.  It was themed around Vietnamese teas, kind of an odd part, since Thai teas are finally coming into their own, but somehow that part makes sense too.  There are a lot of people from everywhere in Bangkok, and cultures from across Asia and around the world merge to make Bangkok special.

This writing is mostly just about that event though.  Huyen and Seth are researching for a book on Vietnamese teas, and this is their second visit here, after also being here last January.  Of course they travel more in Vietnam related to that subject, but cultures and flow of traditional goods mix, so some Vietnamese tea history collects in Bangkok too.  Their Instagram contacts are here, for Huyen and Seth.

beautiful teaware on display in a Bangkok temple; some of it is from Vietnam

The tasting theme was about sharing unique and interesting tea versions, and the background, the context it came from.  Vietnam's story of tea is different from China and Thailand's, but it all overlaps some.

We tried an aged oolong from the early 90s first, representing a critical stage in tea production development there.  As with in Thailand rolled oolong in Taiwanese style, based on plant types and processing from Taiwan, first entered into production in both countries right around then.  Aged oolong is something people seem to love or mostly not get, since it mostly picks up an interesting depth and a bit of plum-like taste.  As a sheng pu'er drinker I'm a bit ruined for all the other range; I can appreciate refined and complex oolongs, or black teas with interesting depth, but I mostly need that atypical intensity just for tea to seem normal.

We also tried a young / newer Vietnamese sheng, and another modern oolong variation, from the #17 cultivar.  That's usually called Ruan Zhi, in most references and by most people selling it, but per some review I think Bai Lu might be a more accurate name for it.  Ruan Zhi is sometimes described as a reference to an earlier range of plant types (with more on that here, and here, with those two posts probably not saying the exact same things).  So it might be more related to the more original Qin Xin range (or Chin Shin, per another transliteration form).

the original plant type table from an interesting Taiwan tea reference

All that is just a tangent though, nothing like a central theme of that event.  And it's always all but impossible to sort out which resource is accurate, I suppose except for more clearly definitive ones.  This set of references is a good example, the Tea and Beverage Station, Ministry of Agriculture (Taiwan) page, formerly TTES and TRES (they rebrand a lot).

The tasting did well to balance background, history, plant type information, ideas about processing, and stories with the direct experience we were having.  Since Huyen and Seth have been traveling and researching Vietnamese tea for a year, or more, it would've been easy to let the tangents and background take over, but they managed that well.

The attendees were one of the most interesting parts, to me.  Because a dozen or so (11?) people attended the tasting divided into two groups, and I heard more from the one sub-set I was in, but everyone seemed on the same page related to really appreciating and getting the experience.  Really anyone at any exposure level can appreciate better teas, but it's also nice when shared prior exposure helps support discussion range.  

A few of the participants were tea vendors (an unusually high proportion), and the rest already loved diverse tea types.  I might mention business links for people to look further into more interesting Thai tea options, related to who attended:  the founder of Qing Fu Cha attended (a Chinese and Thai tea vendor), someone from Wang Pu Tan tea (a Thai producer of great teas), and the Tea Wala vendor (a local high quality Thai tea curator).

We also tried aged Vietnamese sheng, a light rolled oolong very similar to modern Taiwanese versions in style and quality level, a well-oxidized rolled oolong (sometimes marketed as red oolong), and lotus tea, an amazing and distinctive type that Vietnam is known for.  The sweet, licorice flavored taste of that lotus tea was wonderful; to me it really stood out from the rest.  But then I'd imagine different participants would've connected most with different versions, depending on their preference, or which seemed catchy in a novel way to them.

For having over a dozen people in total attend (counting Huyen, Seth, and I) the form and flow went really well.  I've tried holding events before, managing the brewing and pouring aspects myself, and even a much smaller event can be a challenge, with only half that many people attending.

The hostel space they stay in, at the Pastel House, beside the Suttisan MRT station, is perfect for this sort of thing.  Another half dozen people could have joined, and table space would have still been sufficient.  It was a large, quiet, comfortable open space.  If you're ever in that area the roasted pork restaurant right beside it is exceptional, and the Grow Tea Studio tea cafe is nearby.

So is Bangkok on the cusp of foreigner and Thai tea enthusiast appreciation taking on a new, more complex form?  Maybe.  But this kind of thing tends to evolve gradually.  The new commercial tea events, expos, can be developed quickly, and the next post here will be about a continuation of the series of "Taste of Tea" events, with one going on now in Central World.  But tea preference and private social groups transition over time.  Of course all that really started a decade ago here, among Thais.  In an earlier form groups formed around shop customers, people joining related to appreciating tea in places like Double Dogs, Tea Dee, and Ong's tea, a shop that had been in Paragon, now closed.

All of this brings up an inclination to link to lots of old posts here, going on about visiting these shops, going to events, or holding them.  None of this is centered on what I've done or experienced though, and that would seem implied by that, that somehow my experience represents, or even shapes, this local tea culture.  I've just been here to see it.  Shops really support it, and many other tea enthusiasts and vendors pull these interest groups together.  

I'm also not really part of a "tea clique" here.  I was in an online version of one, with Huyen, Suzana, and Ralph; that really helped make Covid seem less isolating, back in 2020 and 2021.  Locally in Bangkok I know some people into tea, and that's nice; it works out without being part of a close circle of tea friends, or some form of networking group.

meeting Huyen and Seth online awhile back

I met Huyen and Ralph first here, at Jip Eu, and many others

people connecting was the nicest part

Free tea tasting in Kapiolani Park (Honolulu)

 

The tea tasting I just held went well, in Kapiolani Park, in Honolulu.  Many thanks to all who participated!  Seven people attended, beyond myself, and my kids stopped by while they played with a volleyball in the park.  We tried most of the teas I had planned to share, swapping out one Thai sheng version for another, and adding some of a black tea I hadn't listed.  Here was that original planned list, in the main Reddit post notification:

Shui Xian oolong, 2022 version, Fujian roasted, twisted style oolong, from a Bangkok Chinatown shop

Shu pu'er, 2017 Menghai version from Moychay

Sheng pu'er, 2018 Yiwu "Lucky Bee" from Tea Mania

Sheng pu'er, 2022 Thai wild forest origin version from a Moychay local production initiative

Sheng pu'er, aged, to be determined, probably a 1980 Thai version from Wawee Tea

I added a Wawee Tea compressed black tea (shai hong), the last tea I've reviewed here, and tried Wawee Tea's sheng pu'er instead of the Moychay version mentioned.  There was no particular reason for the change, there's just something catchy about the Wawee sheng I thought they might relate to.  I'll break down reception of the teas separately, but wanted to overview how it went first, and cover some "lessons learned" thoughts first.

As usual it started late; always the way, but there was a Hawaiian band performance and dancing in a pavilion right beside me to catch.  Using a picnic table in the park was no problem, it just wasn't in the shade, and I ended up a bit sun-scorched as a result, as some guests may have.  All the other details came together, buying some extra cups locally (more spare gear is still back in Bangkok), hot water, etc.  It proved easy to manage, because two people showed up first, then two more, then two left and two joined, so it stayed small.  

The guests joining weren't tea enthusiasts, and had mixed background with tea, but that worked really well, because staying on introductory discussion wasn't too boring for some who had been through all that.  The guests were very pleasant; it can be hard to appreciate how a positive, smooth discussion flow evolves because of everyone's input, but it was like that.  Most people in Hawaii are nice, somehow.  It might seem early to say that, or based on limited exposure, but this stay of 3 months spread over the last 8 or so comes after going to grad school at UH Manoa here, which involved very few negative experiences

That one point brings me to the main thing I think could've potentially went better; I probably talked too much, going on and on about tea background.  People joining might've felt more engaged if they had more space for their own input.  We didn't really get into the tasting notes theme much, sticking with basics, why some teas are compressed, how aging works out, basics of brewing, on main types production inputs, oxidation versus fermentation, storage conditions for aging tea, etc.

Kalani, my daughter, joined at one point to pour tea; that was nice.  My kids have practiced a good bit at home with chrysanthemum, a pleasant and mild tisane, since their mother doesn't let them drink much tea.  I made all the tea with a small gaiwan, which is a Chinese term for a lidded cup.  For a very small group, 5 or less, that still works ok, but it would've went better using a 200+ ml gaiwan (which I have a number of back in Bangkok), instead of having people drink 30 ml or so at a time (a fluid ounce, here), hardly any.  I didn't even include a sharing pitcher in the gear that I used (gong dao bei / cha hai / fairness cup), so slight variations in infusion strength experienced on each round could've come up.

that assistant at a different local park

It went well enough that there's not much to list out for what could've went better, so I'll move back to reception, what guests seemed to make of it.

the tasting set-up and space beforehand

Diamondhead!  none of the pictures do justice to the feel of that space.

a cool stand of trees we were in the midst of

Reception / impressions of the teas

We started with a modest quality Wuyi Yancha (Wuyishan area "rock tea"),  Shui Xian oolong, which only either the first two or first five people tried (easy to lose track).  It's a decent representation of the general range, without notable flaws, and significant roast input, but complexity, intensity, refinement, and depth all could be better.  The basic taste is good for that tea, for inexpensive blended Chinatown versions.  That one isn't really over-roasted or thin, not off in any way, with good sweetness and some nice flavor range.  They seemed to like it.

Shu pu'er isn't for everyone, and that earthiness from the wet piling fermentation, a taste a lot like peat (or even dirt, sometimes), appealed to some and not as much to others.  The novelty seemed well-received.  That's actually a pretty good version, a well-settled Menghai version, from Moychay, and I think that helped, it being better than the rough-edged and limited quality Honolulu Chinatown version that I just had with breakfast.

Sheng pu'er is where things get interesting, because the bitterness either would appeal to people or not so much at all.  And this is also where getting mired in too much background context discussion probably limited more interesting talk about what the people joining made of the experience, what they noticed for flavor inputs, how feel or astringency aspects worked out, and how it worked overall.  I really love that Thai sheng version, but it took me years of exposure and acclimation to like that range of teas as much as I do now.  None of what we tried is really "factory sheng," anything like typical Dayi / Taetea or Xiaguan versions, which are often made from more chopped material, that is often slightly lower in quality, a bit challenging and in need of aging transition input.

The Yiwu we tried later on is better, in a limited sense, more interesting and complex for showing off how some years of age changes things, and in a good place for an optimum for not being a challenging tea to begin with.  Again I didn't prompt discussion enough to get clear feedback about how the two differed per guests' take, but maybe it was a lot to process for them, for going through one type range after another.  They would've needed to either talk through background a lot (as we did), or focus in on experiential range, but covering both could've been a lot.

The aged sheng pu'er version wasn't as positive as I'd hoped, the Wawee 1980 version.  A tea needs to have the right starting point to age well across so many decades, and most versions, even many sheng pu'er versions, would just fade, and slightly odd age-input tastes like mustiness or storage-area flavors could stand out more than positive transitions from an originally very intense tea character.  It was like that; interesting, not really including much for off notes, but clearly quite faded.  I explained how you need a Menghai-type character to begin with to have the potential for very long term aging (if 43 years is seen as that; the pu'er world is so focused on novel experiences and one-upmanship that for some that could just seem like normal range).  It was still interesting, and generally positive, just not including the depth that I'd hoped for, those incense spice or aged furniture notes, evolving positively over rounds.

I wanted to add more on what people seemed to connect with most, but it already seems implied.  All the range of these teas was unfamiliar, for the most part, so the learning and initial experience seemed interesting to them.

That leads to another context theme:  what teas would be more ideal for an introductory tasting than these, what would I have guests try if I had access to everything out there, instead of what I usually drink?  I've only brought a dozen or so tea versions with me for my stay here, of 2 or 3 months.  A visa processing errand will bring me back to Bangkok, either for a week or two or potentially for longer, depending on how job hunt issues work out.  That job search isn't clicking yet; I've had no luck in getting IT services / data center quality assurance / ISO process implementation / internal auditor work to transfer to openings here, but I'm still optimistic.

I usually recommend that people should start on light rolled oolongs, like Fujian Tie Guan Yin (with Taiwanese alternatives often a little better, with careful sourcing).  Or else flavorful, complex, approachable Chinese black teas, like Dian Hong (Yunnan black tea, which is really a broad range).  The one compressed shai hong, a Thai version, isn't too far from Dian Hong range, but it's less flavorful, less sweet, and not in quite as positive a range as more fully oxidized, oven-dried versions in a similar range.  

that Thai shai hong cake; like pu'er, but a little redder

Rolled oolongs I recommend because they're really approachable, pleasant with no acclimation, and easy to brew, in addition to being good at different quality levels.  Light versions can be sweet and floral, and with more oxidation cacao and fruit tones, or whatever else, can enter in.  Lots of sheng is astringent and bitter instead, really rough-edged in lower quality versions, but even the versions I love are surely better with lots of prior exposure.  Shu is fine for a starting point, I think, but then half of everyone would dislike that earthy range.  The roasted oolong we tried, Shui Xian, isn't bad for early exploration, and the roasted flavors range might be familiar to coffee drinkers.  Other versions have more depth and refinement to offer, but starting out with plain and basic examples seems fine.

Lessons learned for a future outing (I probably will do another later)

I think I'll improve as a host if I don't get too caught up in being busy with preparation details and mind how much personal perspective sharing everyone is able to offer.  The most open and outgoing guests, people with the opposite personality type I normally exhibit, in group settings where I'm not essentially presenting, would find openings to share, but that could leave out some others.  I don't think I "talked over" people much (maybe a little?), but I could've been more aware. 

There isn't much I would change.  To try out a different theme it would be interesting to split the difference between describing background (about the teas) and personal experience, what everyone made of it all, especially focused in on people who were less inclined to share thoughts, to give them their own space to share.  It would be nice to switch up tea range but I only have so much with me; I could support another tasting with different versions, but most of the range would be similar.  

I have two more really old sheng versions, samples, from the 70s and 80s as I remember, and either one of those may be much more ideal to show off the potential of that range.  Or both could be quite limited in different ways, maybe really musty from wetter storage input, too heavy on one odd flavor, or from that time period fermentation can transition them to mostly tasting like charcoal.  All of that is why that one aged tea seeming a bit faded by age isn't so bad; it all has to come together for the most positive aspect range to really shine, which is true in different senses across most tea categories and types.

I'd like to close with thanks to the people joining; meeting them all was great.  The mix of people at any given tasting is as much an important part as the teas, the gear and other details, or the host, and it all came together just fine.

that general area, from visiting friends' condo with a view of there

this zoo parking lot view shows just how close it all is to the ocean

Kailua, a more remote beach on the east side of Oahu (later that day)

the view in the other direction, later with some clouds moving through

Anatomy of a failure: tea tasting

The most recent attempt at a tea tasting wasn't a complete failure, because I had a pleasant time having tea with two local friends.  We swapped teas to try, both there and for later on; many thanks to both for that, and for attending.  One was Danittha / Pop (Thais always have nicknames), who I've met a few times now, and also Noppadol, a local tea vendor who was at the two earlier versions.  He sells unusual teas here, and Lamphang Thai sheng versions here.

Related to sharing tea with people I didn't already know, people new to the subject, through social-media event notices, that didn't work out at all.  No one else attended, which wasn't a complete surprise.  It is an unconventional theme.

The tasting I'd set up due to a demand to meet four different people the week prior, for the most part initiated by them.  I did meet one guy, to pick up tea sent by a friend in India, but meeting three others separately within a week wasn't going to work.  As it worked out the two people I planned it with both missed it, and those two other local tea friends attended instead.

small tastings worked at Sasha's place; the "intro to tea" theme was always a stretch (Pop is on the right)

This post title is a reference to one of my favorite Youtube channels, from a guy who breaks down movie reviews as either successes or failures (always with the extremes, right?), related to film-theory expectations and overall results, as in this:

Why Captain Marvel Failed where Wonder Woman Worked


That analyst, who has a really cool accent related to this credential "Krakozhia's #1 content creator," wouldn't focus on the potential social-justice oriented issues that tend to get press in the Captain Marvel movie.  He explores film-theory informed experiential aspects, developing characters, story arc set-up, etc., as typified in another video about why Wonder Woman worked in spite of including one very significant story line flaw.

A concurrent sports analogy

Something my kids experienced this weekend reminded me a little of this tasting event limitation, the "failure" theme.  They've been taking classes on ice skating, after a class series on roller blading earlier in the year.  My wife enrolled them in a day-long competition event held by the Bangkok Skating School, the group that held their earlier roller blading courses.  The one instructor, Ash, is an interesting guy (a Thai from Saudi Arabia previously, but that's not part of this story), who both my kids love.  Based on that alone, and their overall competency, I'd highly recommend that training group.

teacher Ash, Kalani (in the University of Hawaii shirt), and Olia, a much-missed Chinese friend

That event was setting up to be a bust early on.  My kids had been off roller blades for months and doing ramps was proving too much, even though they could do that with ease earlier in the year.  That outing wasn't set up as training, as a competition instead, as a way for kids from different schools and class programs to meet each other and interact.  But then they warmed up to it, and both did ok in a slalom course race.  Not great, not "placing," but they were doing fine.

 I hadn't given thought to them representing Penn State and University of Hawaii (ramp on the right)

WE ARE...

Towards the end there was a relay race, and for whatever reason they had Kalani next to last and Keoni as the anchor.  He was the tallest; maybe for that reason.  It was an exciting race, close to even, with a few falls balanced out by other falls.  Kalani held her own in her leg, giving up a bit of ground, so that Keo just needed to beat his opponent by seconds to bring home the win.  Heading out to a turn at the end it was his to win or lose, neck and neck, and he covered that gap by skating faster on the first outward stretch than the other kid.  Whoever made that turn faster might win it.

He didn't judge the maximum speed right and went off course, crashing, losing the race on that turn instead of making it to a race down the final straightaway.  Heartbreaking!

But that's what they were really there for, learning to compete, how to win and to lose, along with just to have fun.  Every other kid I saw who crashed that day cried as a result, probably not sure if they were injured, hurt, or if only their hopes and expectations were shattered in that fraction of a second.

It had to sting for Keo but it just was what it was; he was under-prepared and made a mistake.  It was a natural one to make; he had caught up to the skater he was going up against, and closed that gap, but was carrying too much speed to make the turn.  He's done a lot of sports for as young as he is, and although it doesn't seem like he's experienced his fair share of victories just yet the ups and downs are already familiar.  Both of them went back to practicing on a second ramp in a different area, until they could clear it with ease.

resting between rounds

My favorite tea blogger, Geoffrey of Steep Stories, would have set this up better, told it better, and would have synced up the lesson learned in the race with the tasting shortfall.  But they were also just different kinds of things.  I did feel some sting of disappointment in inviting thousands of online group participants through a few linked notices (narrowed lots through feed filtering), and not having any show up.  It's hard to place what this trivial degree of "blog celebrity" means (some people actually read this), but events like this clarify that it just doesn't carry much weight.

That's close enough to how the earlier tastings had went before, but having a couple extra local friends as a starting point and a few actually turn out made for a different result.  It wasn't like losing a race, but both relate to dealing with disappointment.  In a way experiencing that race has me questioning if quitting or some form of reset is best.  If the event theme doesn't make sense then dropping it works, but quitting anything one values over a minor setback should be thought through.

I always could've been clearer on why I value getting the word out about tea.  "To help the producers" kind of works, and I kind of just need a hobby, and an excuse to write, but there must be more to it.  In part I want to share tea that vendors share with me to review; it seems only fair and balanced to do so.

Why this event didn't draw interest

I've held two small tasting events before that drew around 8 participants, with that one local friend Noppadol at all three.  That's a reasonable number; a dozen or more would be pushing it for the outing form.  So what changed, or what could have been improved?

My friend Sasha moved; that alone dropped out him and his wife Nok joining.  Now that I think of it prior to any of those open tastings we did a nice practice run, joined by one interesting local guy, in a local Bangkok park, Benjasiri.

Noppadol offered the following suggestions / explanations, with some of this also relating to Pop's input:


Event location was too remote:  this was at a local school and Chinese language academy where my son was taking a Mandarin lesson on Saturday morning.  It's not far from BTS or MRT stops (sky-train or subway), but it still is in an unfamiliar part of town, for many.  It's right beside Chulalongkorn University, if that rings a bell, but I didn't make any allowance to draw student interest there.

I had no idea that many people joined to wait out their kids' Mandarin lesson

Event location (form) is not ideal:  I don't think people were planning to go or avoiding an outing considering this level of detail, more that specialty tea just wasn't something they were going to go seek out.  All the same this was held in a food-court area in a public school and language center, which was quite pleasant and on the quiet side, but also well populated compared to my expectations.  My wife takes our son there on the weekends, and this is the first time I've ever spent the three hours there myself, so that part came as a surprise to me.

I suppose something beyond the school canteen / food court theme could be more appealing; it's just rows of tables, not so different in appearance than at a Tesco Lotus (grocery store version).

with Noppadol and Pop

Tea theme too vague:  I mentioned in an event notice that we would try different types, especially sheng ("pu'er-like" tea) from Laos, Vietnam, and Myanmar.  Pop mentioned that most people who aren't already into tea wouldn't be familiar with sheng pu'er.  Probably true:  I told the staff in the Oriental Cultural Association office--where my son took that lesson--about the event, and no one there had ever heard of pu'er.   At least they had heard of oolong.

Noppodol's idea was that mentioning specific tea versions, adding more detail, like a tasting list, could increase interest.  Maybe.  I'm not sure that a more detailed presentation of rare black teas or oolongs would've been received differently.


Insufficient marketing:  the odd part for me is that I'm giving away tea at these, sharing it, and shouldn't need to push selling for that.  I suspect that's not really a positive, for many, since there is no pre-existing expectation related to joining open tea sharing events.

It might work even better to make up a more developed event framework, and notice reference, and to charge for the experience instead.  Value can be associated with cost; if I were to charge 1000 baht ($30) I'd be promoting the event as worth that much, with the potential for the opposite assumption to happen in relation to not charging.  As a fight promoter and commentator once said (Chael Sonnen, for people into the UFC) "if you fight for a dollar then you are worth a dollar."  A free event could be seen as either not of enough value to include a charge for it, or could actually be selling something, or might be so unconventional that people couldn't place what to expect.


Tea gear isn't sophisticated enough:  this definitely didn't make or break the event, but it fits in this section in another sense.  I make tea in a very basic, stripped-down form for myself, using only a gaiwan and a cup when I brew tea for myself.  I simply don't own the equipment to change that for this type of presentation. 

This is basically a philosophical choice, but also tied to a practical budget concern:  I don't set aside enough money to spend on tea, and don't like owning things I don't absolutely need.  I took up running a year ago, and of course bought shoes for that, but haven't tried on a basic sports watch my wife bought me because I want the running to be about the experience, not messing around with a device to track timing.  I do run 4 1/2 miles at roughly a 7 minute mile pace these days (7.4 km at a bit under 5 minutes per km), typically twice a week, so it's working out.

Back to tea gear, I've seen the relatively universal bamboo slat tea trays sold locally for not very much, in the $30-50 range, but I don't own one.  Or want to, really; if it adds no practical function it's not of interest to me, and tea wouldn't turn out differently if I spilled relatively little and used a cloth or napkin to clear that up.  I own a couple of clay pots but never really got far with that direction either.

minimalist or undeveloped, depending on spin.  it's cool having Keo in a photo, doing what he does, and my wife is never in pictures here.

Gong Fu brewing, backing up a bit:  Gong Fu brewing really means two different categories of things.  One is mainly about the tea proportion to water, brewing temperature, and limited infusion time; this is the sense in which I practice it.  The second sense relates to an array of devices and a somewhat ceremonial approach to preparing tea.  Most of the devices and steps have a function, they're not just for decoration, but essentially very little of the outcome is changed if you don't follow all the steps or own all the equipment.

As an example, a hot water rinse step cleans the teaware and warms it, but that shift in temperature doesn't change much, and with enough delay for other ceremonial steps between the rinse and brewing it wouldn't change anything.  "Tea pets," small figures that you pour tea over, in one interpretation to support making wishes, can be regarded as purely cosmetic.  Maybe the use of bamboo tongs too; they look cool but you can just pick the items up with your fingers.  A sharing pitcher actually has a function, as does the straining step.  Of course there are Chinese terms for all that gear; since I'm not into that scope the names tend to not stick.

one of my first intros to tea, at a Huawei cultural presentation, 7 or 8 years ago

Outing details

We shared some tea; that was the point, and it worked out.  Rather than add more about time-line, or the role my kids played in visiting (not much, although they were both there at the end) I'll just mention the teas we tried.


2018 Kokang Myanmar sheng

Familiar enough to me, since I've been trying versions of Myanmar sheng ("pu'er-like" tea) for years, and I met this tea producer at an event, who gave me this tea in July of this year.  It's a bit bitter, and quite sweet, but on the whole very approachable and pleasant, definitely good quality tea.  The feel could be a little thicker and aftertaste a little more pronounced (tied to quality markers and what many prefer in sheng), but related to flavor, astringency, and overall balance it's quite good.

leaning into the retrospective theme; the Kokang producers at a Bangkok expo this year

I tried to pass on samples of a 2006 Kokang sheng version I also brought to try, that we didn't get to, but the high level of compression of that version made it impossible to do so in a hurry at the end of the tasting.  In part due to that high compression that tea really needs a half dozen more years to age to reach more of its potential, but it is interesting to check out in its current form.


Kinnari Tea Phongsaly Laos local sheng (2019, I think)

This isn't really a Kinnari product in the ordinary sense; Anna, the owner of that company, passed on an experimental local production version from a manual cake pressing training session.  It's pleasant tea, maybe only slightly more rustic and unconventional than the Kokang version.

That type of description tends to cover a lot of range, from a tea version only expressing a slightly different flavor profile and feel, on to one that's bordering on not being sheng at all.  This is the former; it's clearly a conventional sheng, just an unusual version of one, as much as any character can be unusual within the broad range those cover.  It was slightly less sweet than the Kokang version, slightly warmer toned, with more mineral base, not really lower quality or less well balanced in overall effect, just different.

pressing worked out; it's a cool small cake version

Yunnan version:  a tea version the Pop (Danitha) brought I don't remember the origin of, beyond it being actual Yunnan sheng, maybe one 4 or 5 years old instead.  With that as an intro and framing I'll keep the description here limited.

It was interesting, a bit subdued and earthier, much different than the other two tea versions, not necessarily clearly better or worse.  A match to personal preference probably would've outlined that differently for each of us.  Those standard quality markers (positive flavor range, balanced astringency, bitterness, and sweetness, fullness and type character of feel, aftertaste range experience) didn't seem to mark it as much better tea than the other two, but it seemed quite reasonable as quality level goes, perhaps most different related to age range.

It's odd that I don't even remember the broad area; maybe the village name cited wasn't familiar related to that, or maybe it was and memory just isn't my thing at this point.  Have I mentioned that?


Bing Dao huang pian, provided by Noppadol


The name of some higher-demand local tea areas immediately brings up the question of whether a version is actually what it's presented as, and this origin ranks fairly high as this factor goes.  I mentioned in discussion that I've tried tea versions presented as Lao Ban Zhang three different times and can't be sure if I've actually tried any tea from that area or not yet.  Maybe I did three times, maybe none.  One of those versions caused perhaps the strongest drug-like effect I've felt from a tea, and another had a really cool, distinctive, complex and sweet flavor, that included bitterness, and an unusual level of transition of the experience across drinking it.  At least they were all pleasant.

Bing Dao huang pian mini brick

This Yunnan Sourcing reference of their own Bing Dao version covers part of how that goes:


Made entirely from Spring harvested tea leaves! Bing Dao Lao Zhai (lit Bing Dao Old Village) is one of the two villages called "Bing Dao".  There is Bing Dao Xin Zhai (lit.  Bing Dao New Village) as well, which is the more famous of the two villages in the same area.  Bing Dao Lao Zhai trees range in age from 100-300 years old, and while there are older trees we were not privy to that material due to high demand and very high prices.   That being said this is still the most expensive Lincang tea we have ever produced.  It is also one of the best we have produced and if you want to drink Bing Dao tea from spring harvest and from old trees, then this is an excellent choice!

It's interesting that "Bing Dao" means "Ice Island" in Chinese, because this tea is very cool in the mouth and is at once subtle and powerful.  It's got a "creep up on you" cha qi and a powerful pungent mouth-feeling that will stay with you long after your session has ended.  There is is bitterness and astringency but it's never center stage and adds to the complexity of this tea.  One of the more difficult to describe raw pu-erhs I have had.  It can only really be judged by several sessions, so I recommend buying at least 25 grams to start.


That first sentence covers one way a vendor might source and sell authentic limited availability tea that costs below a typical market rate:  autumn harvest tea is lower in demand, and per most accounts not as intense or desirable in character.  Tea varies by so many factors it's always tricky isolating just one input factor as consistent, but some number of autumn harvest versions in that sorts of seems clearer.  Huang pian is usually lower in cost too, tea made from older or yellow leaves instead of the bud and first two. 

The rest is clear enough; local areas can have an edge, a slightly outlying area.  Or different source types can occur within a limited area, quite often tied to plant ages, with ways for demand level to vary by any of those factors, and for more inexpensive related versions to become available.

Sheng pu'er enthusiasts love to finally be able to flag a sales option that can't possibly be genuine, and tea-tree age and low cost selling points for a high-demand source area version are the two main triggers for that.  Especially tea-tree age; any claims of a source plant being over 1000 years old is very dubious, although I take most plant-age claims as meaningless myself, avoiding the grey areas of what to believe.  In earlier forms of vendor marketing that pattern wasn't so uncommon, as was parroting traditional health claims for tea (eg. oolong helps you lose weight).

My take is that local farmers and producers keep exaggerating source stories to sell the tea on their end, and resale vendors either actually believe absurdities or are complicit in passing on obvious falsehoods.  Verdant and Mei Leaf were swept up two of the main "scandals" related to this, with Mei Leaf going as far as claiming sheng was from 1600 year old plant sources, which is roughly the documented age of the oldest tea plants in existence.

Let's check Mei Leaf for a Bing Dao version description and see what they pass on:


Night Forest Muse

This tea was sourced from crazy old tea trees in the hallowed forests of Bing Dao - an area renowned for making potent tea. We estimate the tea trees to be between 500-800 years of age although this is not officially confirmed through testing.

Drinking this tea is a reminder of how PuErh is often judged by mouthfeel, finish and body sensation. The flavour and aroma are complicated and intriguing because of the level of minerality. I would say that the taste has fruits, flower, creaminess and sweetness but this is covered over by a layer of rockiness to make the experience altogether more 'mature'. So lemons become Limoncello, orange becomes blood orange, floral notes become dank, creaminess turns to burnt banana and dark toffee. All of these notes have to be uncovered through focusing beyond the mineral richness of the tea.

The party takes off after swallowing. This tea has such minerality that it makes your mouth fizz and there is a rising sweet and vaporous quality which feels like it goes into your head directly. It is pleasurable and at the same time a little overwhelming.

The body sensation is a potent one. In my experience, it causes excitability, giggliness and a floaty and shaking feeling in the legs with an almost narcotic dreaminess. This is a similar body high which I associate with Lao Ban Zhang...


Where to start.  There is no testing for tea tree ages, although the right plant experts could make very informed guesses, working with live plant versions.  Per some input even taking core samples won't work for plants of that type and age, and no one is going to drill a hole into a 500-800 year old tea tree to check anyway.  For the rest, sure, maybe.

It's interesting to note that both of these are priced in a comparable range (with the Mei Leaf version sold out); the Yunnan Sourcing tea is $150 / 250 grams (60 cents a gram), and Mei Leaf's had been 125 pounds per 200 gram cake (80 cents a gram, probably more before Brexit tore up the pound exchange value this year).

It's very difficult to find an online baseline example of what real Bing Dao is like or should cost.  This reliable puerh.fr reference sets up part of that background:


Bing Dao is now though and definitely the most famous village of Da Xue Shan, but also all the Yunnan and more than 2000 euros per kg of crude maocha (2014) , authentic teas Bing Dao reach prices which no young puerh could have asserted before. If it is less than a decade that we see such a craze around Bing Dao, the reputation of the village and its tea is not new and dates back to the fifteenth century...

...With only a few tons produced each year, the true teas village Bing Dao are found almost on the market where 99 % of what is sold as from Bing Dao is the best surrounding villages , and often not even Mengku . We must therefore go to the village Bing Dao, where cars are searched at the entrance to prevent the import of tea from the outside , but be prepared to put more than 1000 euros in a small pouch 500g of tea , to taste authentic teas old trees Bing Dao...


This isn't necessarily intended as a claim that the Mei Leaf version wasn't "real Bing Dao," but come on, it wasn't.  If it was from a nearby village it could still be exceptional, distinctive, even somewhat similar tea.  The problem comes up that if you buy a tea that clearly isn't what it's sold as, what is it then?  It could be anything.

This version from Noppadol was huang pian, older or yellow leaf tea.  It wasn't so exceptional in character or quality level, but then huang pian is a different kind of thing, mellower, often earthier, spanning a different aspect range.  It was interesting trying it; a nice experience.  Teas having a cool back-story can be nice, I personally just don't spend money on stories.  I barely have enough to spare on decent tea, given how other priorities work out.

Conclusions

I'll probably drop the tasting subject for awhile, maybe until some other external trigger brings it up again.  It really was nice meeting Noppadol and Pop again, and there's no reason why a two person tasting couldn't work out, why we needed to meet even that threshold of three people trying teas together.  I had brought tea to try alone to my kids' swim class a couple of weeks before, and that planned solo tasting outing was nice, something different.

It just doesn't make any sense as an open-event version, since it would take more extensive marketing to draw out participants.  If the demand isn't there then there is really no need to try and create it.  But  I do have a different idea to pursue on how to get the word about tea out.

meeting people this year; Kiattichai of Jip Eu ends up hosting limited notice, informal tastings quite often

The odd part is that I've met so many people visiting Bangkok this year, and have tasted teas at my favorite Chinatown shop (Jip Eu), or elsewhere, with so many.  Beyond that recent tea exchange I've also met an Indian visitor and a friend from Germany at that shop in the past few months, and others from those countries and also Laos and Russia, just between July and August.  The last meeting there with Sasha and Noppadol was early this year (in the one photo), awhile back now, but I think I've met both there two different times.

If I was in a social circle of even a half dozen local tea friends who were into outings this kind of thing would work out.  But I'm not.  That would be problematic, because I need all the free time I have to spend with my kids, who appreciate every moment together.  For many that would add up to a lack of balance, but for me the tea interest works for fitting into a limited space.

All the same if anyone who is local (or not local) has an interest in tea events I started a Bangkok Tea Tasting group to keep track of them awhile back, which others could use to mention their own events too.  That would be anticlimactic if that was the last planned event, but it probably won't be.

later that day; right back to practicing on the ice.  it's no easy life for these poor little buggers.