Visiting Ayutthayah with the kids

I seem to write about visiting Ayutthayah most years, so I'll try to include some extra tips in this, things visitors might try out.  That would be mostly based on what we just did, on this visit, and visiting in the past.

It will be hard to put it all in any sensible order, so I'll just go by topics.

hotels:  we only ever stay in one hotel there, the Ayotthayah.  It's close to the old temple area, pretty nice, and quite affordable, maybe 1500 baht or so, $45, or possibly slightly less.  We checked out a 400 baht per night place last year, further out, that was a lot rougher, but my wife wouldn't stay somewhere like that, so we went back to the Ayotthaya hotel.  It has a tiny pool, and no significant breakfast, so the amenities are limited.  Others could find lots of other equivalent or "better" options, depending on the trade-offs they are looking for.

the bike shop just out the "back" door of that hotel

an especially small pool, I guess still fine for cooling off

restaurants:  we tend to go to three different places most, two for boat noodles, and one for seafood, on the river there.  I would imagine there are lots of other options, for lots of things.  We had a Korean barbecue sort of grill dinner last year, at a place near the Ayotthayah, which I forget the name of (it has another Thai name).  We tend to go there for short outings, for a day and a half, so it's not really enough to explore other options all that much, and we focus on visiting old temples.

a different place, but the same cooking form

bike tour of ancient temples / ruins:  I've done this a few times, maybe three.  This past week it was way too hot, in the upper 90s F / upper 30s C, so it would've been much better to go out in the morning, but we didn't get there until the afternoon (on a one day trip outing).  The closest / most inner 4 or 5 temples are a good set for biking around and visiting, and a couple of others aren't too far.  We went to one across one river, on bikes once, and that's a bit much (the one on the east side).  Another even further out, I think more on the south, is a little more elaborate than most, which is good for visiting by car, maybe at the end of the day.

the iconic photo spot at Wat Mahadat

a trip there last year

It probably won't help others too much, but I can compare how it works out there to Sukhothai, or even Siem Reap, Cambodia, or to other old Thai temple sites.  Sukhothai is a more isolated and less developed old temple site, another 4 hours or so drive well north of Bangkok, on the way to Chiang Mai.  You could bike around there too, I suppose, but we've only ever visited by car.  The central part is fine to walk around without a bike, and we tend to stay in hotels that are further out there.  Ayutthaya developed up around the old ruins, so there are hotels, restaurants, and all kinds of shops right between the old temple sites.

I suppose it gives Sukhothai a different feel effect, that's hard to describe.  Visiting old temples in the middle of a re-developed city is fine, they're nice, and some park spaces between are beautiful, and spacious.  But having a lot of space clear for just those monuments is nicer.

a lights festival at Sukhothai

Siem Reap, in Cambodia, where Angkor Wat is located, is much bigger, more extensive, and isolated within more undeveloped space.  Angkor Wat and Baiyon are huge, and other temples are more extensive than anything that has survived in Thailand.  Maybe it's bigger than Machu Pichu; I'm not sure.

Other places in Thailand are even more limited, but they can still be nice.  We visited Si Thep last year, to a much older site than the other two in Thailand, developed during an early period when Hinduism was influential in Thailand.  As in Cambodia the different historical eras brought different religious influences, and temples were re-worked to include the "new" symbolism.  Of course Buddhism was more influential later, which is still the primary religion in Thailand today.

light and sound festival at one Si Thep monument

Ayutthaya burned, when the Burmese (earlier Myanmar empire) invaded and destroyed a lot of it.  Their hold on Thailand, or Siam, earlier Thailand, was quite short, but the destruction was pretty complete.

We don't tend to see museums about the history in Ayutthaya.  There must be more around than we encounter.  There's a pretty good earlier history museum up in Lop Buri, where there's a relatively small early period Hindu monument.  That's the small Thai town that was overrun by wild monkeys, or at least the old part was, with a newer city center developed some distance away to stay clear of their town space habitat.  Combining visiting Lop Buri and Si Thep would work well for a three or four day outing, spending a day in each, and adding a day or two for travel, even though it's only four hours or so away (Lop Buri, the closer destination).

There wasn't much around the old monuments in Si Thep identifying what it all meant, but for people who don't read a lot of museum written content anyway it would be all they expect to take in.  One monument is quite large there, and an extensive early palace grounds--I think it was that--was only uncovered and developed as parts of a half dozen different old monuments and structures.

the feel of Ayutthaya, versus Bangkok, and smaller towns:  Bangkok is already fairly pleasant and relaxed, but other places outside of the city are even more so.  The smaller the town the quieter the atmosphere and less busy the feel, to me.  Ayutthaya isn't very urban, or crowded.  You can ride bikes there with some car traffic around, even though there is only a limited amount of dedicated bike lanes, which is on the opposite scale and density of Bangkok traffic (where I'd never ride a bike).

Of course there are countless coffee shops, ice cream places, noodle shops, and so on.  Local street food places and old markets turn up, where tourists tend to stay.  It's a good place to not spend much money to experience basic but nice foods.  The range is mostly local Thai food, of course.  You might get bad pizza or Italian, if enough tourists are there to expect that, but it's as well to switch over.  I don't think there is a lot to do, beyond visiting those temples.  But there must be at least one museum, that we never get to.

distance from Bangkok / how to travel there:  we drove up, and it's not much over an hour from our house, in the older Dusit area in town (near Victory Monument).  It's at least possible to take a local train up there, which I think wouldn't cost much, maybe even under 100 baht ($3).  Or buses would run up to there, or renting a car for a day could work.  I'm not sure how well it works to have a normal taxi drive you up.  

You can rent a car for the day, with a driver, for something like 2000 baht in Bangkok, I think ($60), so if someone looked around enough inexpensive and very functional options would turn up.  Or maybe it's more now; I'm basing that on us renting vans regularly for around 1500 years back, but maybe that cost has doubled since.  Still, that would only be $90 per day, which doesn't go far for taxi fare back in the US, and that's for a van and driver.

For me driving in Thailand is no problem, but then I live here.  It was pretty rough for the first year or so, until I adjusted to it.  That road is a crowded but fairly open highway, between Bangkok and Ayutthayah.  

If you do drive there is a truly massive Thai market on the way, Talat Thai, which you would need to look up on maps to see.  It's wholesale oriented, so the best possible place to buy multiple kilograms of Thai fruits (or vegetables or meats), which could come in handy to support breakfasts or snacks.  It would be tricky for foreigners to shop there, because it's a complex of a half dozen giant buildings, but for some sorting it out would be part of the adventure.  There's a nice food court there; that could also relate to grabbing a breakfast or lunch (if you run late, in order to do two or more days in Ayutthaya).  A day and a half seems like plenty, to me, but two days at a relaxed pace would work.

We tend to stop at the Central mall on the way there or back, but it's identical to other places in Bangkok.  It's a convenient place to get a travel meal in, at a food court there, or any number of restaurants.

other themes, religious observance and restrictions:  people ride elephants near the one temple; issues related to that are worth mentioning.  It's considered by many to be unethical to ride elephants, because it's not comfortable for them to hold a chair structure on their back, and they have to live in captivity to do the work.  It's hard to be clear on that point.  Domestic elephants have been used for a long time for agriculture, and they can't really be returned to the wild.  Most people only visit "ethical elephant camps" now, and skip the elephant rides.  But it's more of a tourism theme in Chiang Mai, than in other places.

Visiting functional (modern) temples comes up; there is one main one near the other old ruins versions, and we've visited a second not far from another that's further out.  There isn't much to know, for what to do or not to do.  The main restriction is that women shouldn't wear revealing clothes, which is also true of the old temples / temple ruins areas.  My daughter wore a crop top, because it was hot, and took an extra shirt to wear into the temples.  You can donate money to temples, if you want, and there are different ways that Thais make observances, and make wishes.  

Trivial practices and restrictions include that you shouldn't step on the doorway entrance frames in temples; you should step over that door section.  Nothing would happen if you did step on it, but it's considered disrespectful.  If you want to use a Thai observance practice you can "wai" three times to a main Buddha image, like the Christian prayer motion with your hands, while kneeling (in a different leg position, if you want to copy others), and put your hands down to the ground after, as you bow low, for those three times.  This relates to paying respect to the Buddha, to the Sangha (the monkhood and practitioners of Buddhism), and to the Dharma, to the Buddhist teachings.  

Of course touching statues, sitting on them, or doing playful photo poses is not appropriate.  Monks cannot physically touch a woman, so it's best to be aware that the restriction is interpreted in an extreme form.  Women can't even directly hand a monk something; they put a small cloth down to receive anything given to them by a woman or girl.

That kind of exception, that restriction, doesn't contradict that Thai culture is open and welcoming to visitors, and quite relaxed in general.  They're generally fine with visitors getting minor cultural norms wrong, and there's only a short list of issues that won't work for, relating mostly to showing disrespect to their monarchy or religion.

On foreigners retiring to Thailand

 

The idea of possibly retiring to a lower cost of living country comes up in online discussions.  It relates to people identifying that US social security isn't enough to live on, and that their own retirement savings seems a bit thin.  The numbers you see vary, but per a quick check with Google 40% of all Americans have no retirement savings, and that only reduces to 20% for Americans over 50.

This isn't about all of that.  It's not even about complications in living abroad, although I will start with that theme, to explain what may not work well, or why it wouldn't work at all for some people.  I wanted to explain what retirement tends to look like in Thailand, how people tend to live.  Obviously I'm drawing on online communicated stereotypes and discussions; I don't know all that many retired people.  But for many it's a complete blank, and I want to help fill that in, since I've been living in Thailand for awhile (about 18 years).  Of course scope will be narrow, just thoughts or range that comes to mind, in part related to questions that come up.  Like these:

How developed is Thailand?  What do different areas look like?  Do expats / foreigners tend to live in "enclaves," or not?  What are different area options, versus just city, rural, and beach or island based?

Let's start with the problems.

Difficulties / problems

Oddly a visa isn't one of them.  With sufficient savings or proof of income anyone can get a retirement visa in Thailand.  I suppose if someone is quite poor meeting these minimums could be a real hurdle, if they are living on zero savings and social security.  But for many it would just relate to issues with proof, demonstrating that security with or without pulling out funds to place in a Thai bank for demonstration purposes (which might be required).

If someone isn't retirement age (I'm not sure the cutoff) they might have a different problem, since they probably wouldn't be eligible.  Thailand offers other visas, for investors, or shortcuts if you pay extra.  I suppose from there someone could try a work-around instead, to get an education visa to go to a low cost institution, whether they are really studying or pursuing an educational goal or not.  

Thailand continually weeds out people manipulating visa channels, using them improperly, but there would still be exceptions to work with.  It would be for the best to not rely on "work arounds" that involve cheating the system though.  People of different ages could take part in different forms of education, and in Thailand it might be broad enough that you could learn muay Thai or cooking, versus being in a degreed university program.  It's crazy how inexpensive and broadly themed vocational education options are in Thailand, but that applies a lot more to Thais, and foreigners would need to do a lot of research.

Communication both is and isn't a problem.  Enough people speak English that even out in rural areas you could manage transportation and buying food and such, with essentially no Thai language skills.  But it would make for an uncomfortable life experience, only learning a few basic words.  Speaking a few hundred words, even badly, would go a long way.  That's not that difficult.

In the short term society seeing you as an outsider might not be so negative, but in the long run it may not feel comfortable.  The US forms of racism or bias against immigrants isn't copied over; it would take another factor or two for someone to get beat up over it.  So this leads to the potential "enclaves" or expat gathering center theme I'll get back to, about people gathering together around others with similar background, to experience a limited and very local familiar culture, which I'll cover related to how that works out by area (in a few cases; none of this is comprehensive).

Missing home is the real issue.  Lots of people love the differences in an early honeymoon period.  New foods can seem fantastic, and low cost of living really freeing.  Problems that you would expect not coming up, the racism theme, could seem like more acceptance than it really relates to.  Romantic options could seem open (more for guys, and that tends to take a pay-for-play form, whether that's explicit or not).  But lots of familiarity is also missing.  Driving is more difficult, for awhile, and food options aren't the same.  Interactions with government systems are difficult, for example getting a driver's license, which you can do.  Beyond any of that it can get old being an outsider.  Or I suppose anomalies would come up, like someone not tolerating hotter weather well.

Different locations

Pattaya:  the sex tourism capital; for one type of transplant this is the obvious choice.  There's not much more to add about that.  Some people claim that Pattaya is really fine for living a life that's not based around that, but it's really all over the place there.  You could appreciate Western food or decent medical care options there instead, and I suppose if you lived in a quiet and out of the way part the sex industry might not come up much.  But in general if you are there it's for that.

Phuket:  this other main resort area might provide a better balance for people not so focused on the sexpat theme.  It's an option in places there, but it looks and feels like a normal island resort too.  There is a "downtown" part, and shopping, dining, and medical care are probably all fine (I've experienced the first two, on visits, just not hospital visitation).  There are a number of muay Thai gyms there; I suppose some few older guys, or women, might take up training to stay in shape.  Beaches are a little cleaner and more conventional than in Pattaya.  You can visit Rayong and go out on snorkeling outings not so far out of Pattaya too, but Phuket is more what one would expect for an island or seaside resort.  Our kids took surf lessons there on a visit once.

surfing in Phuket; I'm sure it would get better than that at times, in other places

recently in Waikiki; conventional sized waves, that can get a lot bitter

It's interesting hearing about how there are too many Russians in some places, or whoever else, increasing crime rates.  People who spend lots of time in bars tend to pick up a different perspective than I'd ever have.  It's nothing like Mexican cartels making some places unsafe.  Older guys do tend to die a bit often in Pattaya, per a favorite online story line, but it's probably more related to suicide than due to others' choices, even if both happen regularly.  

All of Thailand is pretty safe.  Drinking every day is a much higher risk than foul play.  This is just my take, but it seems like the darker the aspects are related to your lifestyle the more your risks escalate.  People doing illegal drugs bring risk on themselves, for example, and even more by drug dealing.  There's a favorite story line about foreigners being taken advantage of just for investing a lot of money, especially related to marrying a Thai, and I suppose if a lot of money is at stake potential risks could increase.  Trusting random people with millions of baht is probably a bad idea.

Isaan:  this is really where a lot of older guys end up, and a much smaller proportion of female retirees.  It's a great place to lead a quiet life.  The harsh, sometimes true story of a foreigner building a house in his wife's name, and then being cheated out of everything, must happen from time to time, but in general many more people must just lead quiet lives instead.  Foreigners can't own land, which could lead to those circumstances, having property and a house in your wife's name.  Or renting could work.

I think people just love those stories, and there is no story if some guy lives out 20 quiet years.  Probably in some cases the real details about someone experiencing ordinary misfortune aren't interesting enough, so that gets spun into something else.

One downside of Isaan life could be that it's pretty quiet there.  It's not different than in rural areas anywhere else.  That could sound good to someone, and could be experienced as very positive, then a year or two later it might not seem as pleasant and balanced.  I remember meeting local expats in a hotel gym / spa area once, talking a little about how life goes out there.  They didn't make it sound bad, at all, but there was a sort of desperation related to any mention of boredom.  To be clear where I'm from, in rural Pennsylvania (the US), it would be worse.  There aren't small communities on the same scale as nearby, just mostly small towns and tiny villages, and almost no one is moving there from anywhere else.  The one upside, related to the US, is that the roads are a little better, so you can travel further at a faster pace, so it all balances back out.

They have small local markets and food courts in different places all over, but you can tell this is Bangkok instead by the elevated highway.  Apparently I don't take that many pictures of normal markets when we visit smaller towns, but I do have others.

a Lopburi monument (there would be things like this in lots of places)

inside that monument.  what remains in places varies a lot.

all of those monkeys are all around you outside, and on the streets.

a sidewalk fruit market there is pretty typical.

Thai history goes back to the stone age, with interesting stages in between then and now.

Roads are pretty decent in Isaan, but it's all relative.  The main highways aren't like US interstates, and "country roads" can be a bit basic.  It doesn't seem unsafe to me, driving in rural Thailand, but you have to pay more attention, and adjust speed for conditions.  It goes a lot better than you might expect, but at the same time longer distances take a bit more time, compared to road travel in the US.

this could be lots of places, but I think it's in Trat

One might wonder what is out there, beyond farms, and small towns.  Temples, of course.  Plenty of parks, and some museums.  Historical areas turn up here or there.  It's funny how often expats complain of dual pricing, of paying more to enter natural areas and parks, but I suppose if you were going to them frequently paying 300 baht ($10) instead of 30 could seem a bit insulting, especially if you pay a lot more taxes than most Thais.  I don't know that it's mostly about the actual expense.  

They do the same thing here, in Hawaii, and visitors from anywhere else pay to go to some places that are free to locals (Hawaii residents).  I get it; the idea is to protect your local residents from experiencing costs meant to be imposed on visitors.  And that seems to be the rub for resident expats; they see themselves as local residents.  But they're not Thai.

Bangkok / Chiang Mai:  I was going to list out lots of places foreigners tend to live in Bangkok, but this is already running long.  It's possible to find that out online.  As I see it Chiang Mai is fairly comparable to Bangkok, maybe just better for being a little bit less of a sprawling mess, even though their traffic was already bad enough a decade ago, and must be much worse now.  

where I run around a palace in Bangkok.  I'm not going to show much of the city though.

a canal area on the walk to a local market near our house (in Bangkok)

a temple on the way (of course)

these drainage canals are cool, but can be a little smelly

Let's run through where some expats live in Bangkok though:

Udom Suk:  one main transplant hub, on "deep Sukhumvit," that might be called, versus lower Sukhumvit.  Suhumvit is the main road in Bangkok, essentially, running east and west with a N / S tilt to it.  This is on the far side, out east, and south, towards Bangna.  The areas are summarized as BTS (skytrain) stops; really the two stops on either side of Udom Suk aren't so different, since they're not that far.  There would be plenty of apartment complexes there, and restaurant options, with lots of it local in character (cheaper, more casual).  Even further out there are other areas, including Bangna, and foreigners would end up living all over the place.

Tong Lo / Ekamai:  the next level closer to a center of the city, but there is no singular center.  Maybe the Siam BTS stop area is more like a center, but it's not that.  These are trendier, and probably costlier areas.  Further on yet Asok is a main intersection area, again still on Sukhumvit and that BTS line, maybe as much the main center for expats to live as anywhere else.  There's a red light area beside Asok, Soi Cowboy.  I'm not sure that's the primary reason for its popularity; there is a lot of things right there, including a main mall (Terminal 21), a few shopping areas, a nearby large park, and so on.

These places would be more costly, but you could still find ordinary apartments around there for 20 to 30,000 per month, I think ($600 to $1000 USD).  High rises with a pool and gym would probably run on the high side, but there would be other kinds of options.  Other costs of living would still be kind of low.  It's a little hard to summarize what I mean by that, since running through costs for food, groceries, different kinds of restaurants, gyms, and so one would make for a good 1000 word summary.  You can buy a bowl of noodles for not very much all over, $1 or 2.  Groceries never cost that much.  In restaurants more oriented towards a higher end or more foreign clientele costs rise, but it's generally nothing like where I am now, in Honolulu, where $30 doesn't go very far to get something to eat.  You could spend that at Subway, and not get much for it.

There's a Japanese expat area near Phrom Phong, not far from Asok.  I don't keep track of those sorts of separate foreign origin areas, but of course Chinatown has connections back to China, and there's a little India, of sorts.  There is Middle Eastern influence around the Nana area, which contains another red light area.  Those red light areas tend to be a bit self-contained, so someone could live 100 meters outside of one and not really be that affected by it.  That's because it's not really an illegal business, even though in one sense it may not be fully formally sanctioned.  That part is complicated.

Siam:  people don't tend to live here.  There's no zoning for what can be built where, but more commercial areas tend to not include that much housing.  There would always be small apartment complexes not too far away, or a more pricey highrise kind of resident option almost anywhere.

Sathorn / Silom:  these are nice areas, beside each other.  Silom is also pretty commercial, but it's a decent size place, so there would be places to live around.  Sathorn is more a central business area and a residence area (it's much bigger; it has different sections).  There's no reason that Thais couldn't live in any of these places, but in general the local people we know are based from where their family had lived, or else they've moved into areas that seem a little more like suburbs, further out.  I've worked in Sathorn and Silom and most people had long commutes to get there.

Nonthaburi:  outside of Bangkok there are small areas where foreigners live, more of an enclave theme than what I've been describing.  Some might be in Nonthaburi, or at least a friend happened to live in such a place there.  There are very small complex areas where foreigners live within the city center too, for example not far from where the embassies tend to be.  I don't have much to add about such places.  Visiting one comes to mind, and it was nice how it was a small gated community (very small; maybe 15 small houses), with limited yard space for kids to play in.  That kind of standard form of a US suburb isn't common in the center of the city though, and may occur a lot more often a little further out.  Over by the airport my wife's close friend lives in such a complex. 

Sub-culture themes

There's an interesting divide between expats who pride themselves on integrating, and others who love Thailand but don't try to change themselves or their own lifestyle to fit in better.  It's all good, either way.  Of course people who are fluent in Thai, eat local foods, have local friends, and "get" the local culture can tend to express that's better.  Maybe I'm in the middle, even though I live in a Thai family, work in a Thai company, and was ordained as a monk at one point (as an example; that doesn't prove anything).

Expats can link up with other expats and still live a relatively local lifestyle, or naturally be introverted and somewhat isolated and still live a lot like a Thai.  Or they could pick and choose, and eat foreign foods, but play soccer (football) with Thais, and so on.

It comes up over and over that Thais aren't generally seeking out including a foreigner in their social circle, that it's hard to be fully accepted.  I suppose there is a perspective of foreigners being outsiders, which would take some effort to overcome.  Language issues would be part of that.  In the end foreigners do often find ways to link up with others, through sports themed groups, professional societies, or informal special interest groups.  If an expat is sort of passing through, only spending a few years in Bangkok, or elsewhere, it would just be easier that way.

It's interesting how some things are really simple and easy in Thailand, even more so than in the US, and other things are pretty difficult.  Maybe getting a driver's license is an example of a system designed to not work well in both places.  Medical care is pretty straightforward in Thailand, compared to in the US.  Quality of medical care varies, but plenty of that applies in the US as well, just less so.

Some pretty basic themes, like having someone cut your lawn, tend to work out better through personal contacts in Thailand, not so much whatever the modern equivalent of using yellow pages is (Google search?).  Lawns aren't so common in Bangkok; I mean across the rest of that scope, like getting treatment for termites.  My wife has so many personal connections with people who fix clothing, help around the house, are a better than average vet option, and so on.  There are always different ways to do different things, but some may not work out well.  Something easy, like being able to use a local pool to swim laps, may seem tricky, even though after you put the work into investigation multiple options would turn up.

It's for the best to avoid any involvement with Thai laws.  If you open a business you can't, of course, but foreigners would have very limited rights to do that, so it would be tricky to (and costly, but it is possible, with Thai partners).  I mean that you need actively observe cultural norms that overlap with legal issues, like not defaming others' public images online.  In the US you can do that, but not so much in Thailand.  Noise ordinances seem a bit less rigid, but again as an outsider you don't want to test those kinds of limits.  If your neighbors are really loud it's better not to follow suit.

Maybe these kinds of sub-themes could add up to not feeling at home, not knowing where all of the norms and restrictions lie.  It's atypical for men to walk around with no shirt on, but can you?  Probably, where it makes sense, but it's better not to.  

Transplant residents tend to not live in fear of violating the next norm, since Thais are pretty open and flexible, but different people would end up pushing it in different ways.  One former expat once gave me the advice that eventually I would have someone draw a weapon on me, which related entirely to how he was living, that it had led to that.  I'd have to think hard to recollect anyone speaking in an unkind manner, never mind anything like that.  But if you transplant your entire worldview and set of behaviors with you, instead of minding fitting in, maybe odd things could come up.

Another expat told me that after a few years I would equally not fit in anywhere, and I suppose there is something to that too.  I'm an outsider in Thailand and the US now, even though I feel at home in both places.

Christmas in Waikiki

I usually write about reverse culture shock themes, or running, when I'm back here in Hawaii.  We moved here 3 1/2 years ago, mostly so our kids could experience the US education system, and Keoni is half a school year away from graduating high school.  Kalani has experienced middle school for the first time this year, a big change from earlier elementary / grade school experience.  This won't mostly be about them; they would just as soon stay anonymous online, so even mentioning them breaks form.

Christmas has been nice.  I guess I've not experienced a Christmas here in nearly 20 years, back when Eye and I went to grad school in the University of Hawaii (at Manoa), where we met.  It would've been 19 years ago now.

It never feels completely like Christmas in the tropics, related to the winter expectation, but that's familiar in Bangkok.  There mostly malls and hotels decorate, and office buildings put up some token lights and a tree.  You don't hear the Christmas carols there, but that music does play around here, in Honolulu stores.  They put up lights as a city display, in two different places; that was nice.

I could add, about the kids, that we are terrible at observing holiday traditions in both cultures, but did ok for pulling together some token gifts this year.  Kalani's favorite gift was something she said that she wanted, seeing it in passing, an inexpensive karaoke system.  It's tiny, so small the speaker and microphone would fit in a woman's purse, but the function is decent.  It can play music through a bluetooth connection; the technology is mature enough now.  And it was so inexpensive; people buy coffee drinks for almost as much.

Keo's favorite gift was probably an above average quality headphones set, and he also got a Lego car set, both things he had mentioned wanting.  They were surprised; we usually drop the ball.  We didn't do much else for observance, walking around Waikiki some that day, but it was nice, spending time with family, even cooking basic meals.

Maybe adjusting to local culture, or the US version, went better this time, since I was last here 3 months ago.  For whatever reason I don't need any adjustment time back in Bangkok, in Thailand, but here it feels a little strange for the first week or two.  

Of course we are living in a tourist resort as a main residence area (for us), so that part is unusual.  I did that back in Colorado for a decade or so, in a different life phase, in a ski resort, in the Vail Valley.  It didn't seem so unusual then.  Lots of vacationers were visiting, but then it takes a lot of locals to support that particular industry.  Here resident locals might seem a little less integrated, since there isn't an isolated resort community; Waikiki is within a city of half a million or so people.

One part I always struggle to place is the emphasis on consumption, in local culture, to the extent it makes sense to call it that.  On vacations that seems relatively transparent, that of course you go there to eat special meals, to participate in special events or activities, and it all keeps costing money.  As a local there's a lot you just aren't doing.  Of course I don't miss whale-watching outings or luaus, but everywhere you go everything you see is oriented towards a tourist spending money.  

Even with the ocean right there, which you can experience for free, people rent or buy beach chairs or snorkels, or hire guides to take them places they probably could go, like to go snorkeling.  At least the tourists do visit the beach.  Surfing they couldn't do on their own; plenty take lessons for that.

Tourists don't always do much with the beach theme though.  A chance earlier life-phase contact visited in the Spring and her family seemed to barely see the beach, for doing guided outings to different places.  It seemed odd.  Seeing Pearl Harbor makes sense, or a waterfall somewhere, but the Polynesian Cultural Center doesn't really accurately represent Polynesian culture.  It's ran by Mormons, so it's like a Disney version of cultural summary.  

My Thai family loves that place, so it's not all bad.  Fire dances and whatever else are fine; there would be some historical basis for all of it, even though it also surely includes plenty of interpretation.  Any cultural summary would be like that, so I don't intend that as a unique form of blame.  It would be touchy summarizing "white American" culture, since half of what I valued in the late-middle of the 20th century might seem politically incorrect now, things like Thanksgiving, or pledging allegiance, that form of indoctrination.

This branches a little further into my own musing, not about local experience, but lots of this consumption-oriented tourism ends up dividing people into economic categories, more than they really need to be.  It's not about a intentional, central guiding "them" causing that, it evolves organically.  If you can spend $400 to 500 on a hotel that's who you will be surrounded by, and if you need to seek out "budget" alternatives it's a different class group.  Activities, and all sorts of other offerings, will naturally divide out from there.

At least people can still dress casually regardless of what context they end up within, and nature is still available to everyone.  Not a very natural version of it though; it is an intentional limitation, that tourists are steered to stay within either Waikiki or other appropriate areas.  In online discussion groups it's taboo to mention anywhere else.  I remember someone mentioning my favorite local beach, which isn't too far out of the way, and someone commented that they don't even tell their local Honolulu family members about that, never mind tourists in a broad Facebook group.  There are many more isolated places locals would never mention.  Not that it matters so much; going where lots of other people go instead is comfortable, and easy.

This reminds me of a discussion about tourists being airlifted from a popular local hike, which is definitely no secret, the Koko Head Crater hike.  It's essentially a set of stairs up an old rail line.  We've went up it twice, and to me once was already enough, given that context and theme.  If you get injured along the way it would be problematic getting yourself back down.  Of course locals were blaming people for not knowing their limits, which seems a little unfair to me.  How could someone know how they would react to hiking up over a mile of stairs, at a conventional steep incline?

It's a different story not knowing your limits about swimming in an ocean current, even within 100 meters of the shore.  Once you panic everything changes, and your danger level doesn't match what you might normally expect.  Once Eye and I were caught in a fast current just off a beach in Kauai, and she panicked, and even though she's normally a very strong swimmer it was all she could do to stay afloat.  The irony is that she can't sink in the ocean; salt-water makes you more buoyant, and when we would see sea turtles she couldn't swim down to get a closer look.  So out we went.  

A surfer girl was passing, and read the situation, and put Eye on her board, and she and I pushed her straight back in through that current.  Ordinarily the worst case is that you go out 100 to 200 meters and swim back in (a different way), but right there who knows.  We were at the "corner" of that island, and maybe we really would've been caught in a broader current, and headed out to Australia.

Enough of that tangent.  Tourists are safe and sound in crowded Waikiki beaches, in luaus, and overpriced happy-hour beach bars.  They sometimes feel an inclination to get out and see "the real Hawaii" but that's always a little contradictory, a tourist wanting to go somewhere tourists never go.

in a Waikiki McDonald's; a nice touch, the decoration

Homelessness and drug use

It can be hard to avoid touching on these darker themes when discussing US culture, but instead of adding more general perspective here I wanted to share a couple of unusual related experiences.

Of course I see mentally ill and drug-affected homeless people in Honolulu on a daily basis; it's almost not that big of a deal.  Until you are out late somewhere you shouldn't be, and then it is.  But we recently passed through one part of Chinatown, a sort of rough part of downtown, at mid-day, and saw two sets of people using drugs.  I see people smoke weed about a dozen times a day, but this was something else.  Two guys had a blowtorch and glass pipe of some kind; I guess that's crack?  Right in a crowded plaza space too; kind of strange.  It was a full-sized construction use blowtorch, along with elaborate glassware, straight out of a chemistry set; surely they could've used a smaller and functionally equivalent set-up.

We walked on to a bus stop where a guy was selling some sort of drugs, and one guy smoked some right there.  Off foil; I'm not sure what that means.  It was really something, seeing people walk up to buy drugs, and one guy smoking some.  He didn't react to doing the drugs all that much; that part was a little anti-climactic.  It all seemed normal enough to them, as if that bus stop was just their space for that kind of thing.  I guess it had good customer foot traffic?

It changes things a little seeing it, versus just knowing that's a part of where you live, and what those people are doing.  I don't mean "those people" in some sort of generalizing, negative sense; homeless people would surely all have different stories they're living out.  But at least a half dozen people are living that life, based on what we saw with our own eyes over the course of a half an hour or so.

Honolulu wouldn't be ok with tourists seeing that; it would get cleaned up in Waikiki.  Which reminds me; they had an extensive "spread Aloha" neighborhood watch sort of program before, maybe even back in the spring, and that's not going on now.  Maybe it's cyclic?  There are a few places that homeless people set up camp within 3 blocks or so of our house, with mats and bedding and such.  We don't live far from the zoo, for people familiar with this area.  I don't mean the sizeable encampment area by Paki park, or the outposts by the library, or the edge of the golf course, all within a 5 minute walk of the places I am talking about.  Over in Dillingham road there are whole homeless encampment villages.

Where am I going with all of this?  Nowhere, I guess.  It's a real issue.  That's not news to anyone living in any US city.

We always had a few homeless people around, 20 years ago, when I went to grad school here, maybe a half dozen or dozen you'd always see in Waikiki.  And many in other parts of the island.  But the numbers are different now.  I'm not the right person to shed light on what it means, the causes, or how to resolve it.  Of course I feel worse for those people than I do for myself for experiencing it, for being caused to see them.  

Having my kids be around relatively unstable people is a third thing; I also get it why people see it as a real issue beyond the aesthetic part.  In general not much violent crime is adjoined with homeless issues, but some it.  I've always discussed most themes with my kids, so talking about what drugs are and how they destroy lives is normal ground for us.  People smoke weed every 100 or so meters in Waikiki, so you get limited exposure to that other part of it everywhere else.

I should close on a happier note.  I met with online tea friends here this stay; that was a highlight of the trip.  They were here for the Honolulu Marathon.  I run, but I've never ran in an organized race, at least not since my teens, when I did run cross country and local 10ks.  I've been off running for half this stay, due to a minor tendon tear, and have been happy to get back to my normal route over the past week or so.  It's a fantastic place to run here, around Diamondhead.  It's a great environment for lots of reasons, and purposes.  The positives vastly outweigh the negatives.  I've been swimming even more, seeing sea turtles regularly, on a 200 meter route out in a lane from a local beach.

in Foster botanical garden, in Chinatown

with pineapple ice cream, sort of

gardening; we have two small boxes at Kalani's former school

One of the first photos from this visit, of Christmas decorations at home, from Kalani, our resident artist.  She made them for everyone, listing their favorite color, cat, and food, and Christmas wishes.

each cat's favorite cat was themselves.  I'm not so sure about that.

Sun Yunshan describes Wanmu Tea Garden and Xinyang tea culture

 

I've been hoping to tell more of the story of Wanmu Tea Garden, a Xinyang, Henan tea grower and producer (factory).  This is a better form of that than I could've hoped for, input that's mostly from the main founder, Sun Yunshan.  It describes their approach to tea, what is produced locally there, and hints towards some parts of Chinese perspective on tea.  As a tea enthusiast I'm very grateful to have access to this.

I've been talking about trying their teas, a little, and have one more black tea to try and review, which is likely to be exceptional, an award winning version.  I've already reviewed exceptional yellow teas from them, and novel Dong Fang Mei Ren oolong versions, which are an interesting and pleasant local interpretation of that style (here and here).  But here as an introduction I only want to frame some of my own perspective towards Chinese tea culture, and to a limited extent Chinese culture in general.  

Often somewhat trivial forms or depictions of Chinese tea culture come across, when Western vendors or enthusiasts describe their own limited contact, or sales oriented spin.  It ends up relating to aesthetics, or an appreciation of ceremony, maybe venturing into animistic spiritualism, although I come in contact with a lot more of that within Thai culture, to be honest.  That's a story for another day.  I think there is great potential value in recognizing, appreciating, and communicating with spiritual forces that you may not literally believe in, even if those only represent foundational dimensions of yourself in the end.

I experience a very pragmatic and limited form of tea culture.  It's about the tea.  But at the same time I have a deep appreciation for people holding different worldviews, and valuing different experiences, and for Chinese culture in particular.  

I've been to China several times, and have been friends with a number of Chinese people.  Some were fellow parents of my children's classmates, some work contacts, and of course some favorites have related to tea themes, especially one favorite producer who I've discussed so many times here.  Two local Chinese - Thai Bangkok Chinatown shop owners are like an aunt and uncle to me.  I've been through plenty of discussion of Chinese culture, and varying perspective issues.  

It's a little sad that a narrow, negative stereotype informs misguided bias within some Americans' perspective on China, but this is normal.  Everything I thought that I knew about Russians went out the window when I visited Russia, and met Russian friends, replaced by a more complex impression of typical positive and negative character traits.  People really vary as individuals wherever you go, and culture only shapes parts of the form of their worldview, and informs their experiences.

I have no difficulty at all in setting aside potentially problematic conflicts in terms of national interest, or the more problematic sides of government character.  Being from the US I need to be able to make this separation, in order to appreciate and embrace my own traditional culture, and national character.  The Republicans and Democrats don't represent my own culture at all, to me.  The perspectives, lifestyle patterns, social roles, and hopes and dreams of Americans do, of course including immigrants, since the US is a nation of immigrants.

So related to tea culture I can easily appreciate that thousands of years of history have went into developing the complex, nuanced, and very deep experience of many types of Chinese tea, coupled with a history of brewing and serving tea.  This includes a perspective on how healthy the drink must be, its role in daily life experience, and aesthetic or meditational experiences, or however one takes it.  

At the same time it's really about soaking dried leaves in hot water, and enjoying the resulting unique beverage, often tied to social contact.  That contrast between a simple yet also complex and profound experience is the foundation for Chinese tea culture, as I see it.  And as a tea enthusiast we join in this simply by trying the tea, only partly informed by whatever cultural contact we also experience.  Even if that tea is from Thailand, Vietnam, India, or elsewhere; these are connected experiences.

Considered in that light Mr. Sun Yunshan is sharing very deep, personal, and also simple experiences with us, especially his perspective on them.  Again I am very grateful for this.

my point of contact there, Gisele, from Thailand, now living in China

Interview with Wanmu Tea Garden (Wanmu Tea Industry Development Co., Ltd.)

1. Can you describe the background of your tea company?

Chinese: 你能介绍一下你们茶企的背景吗？

Our company is called Shangcheng Wanmu Tea Garden Tea Industry Development Co., Ltd. It is a privately owned enterprise invested by an individual. The company mainly focuses on solving the production, processing, and sales needs of tea grown within the 11,000-mu tea garden area of our administrative village.

⸻

2. Your founder [the main source for this content] has been described to me as an authority on tea and a local community leader. Can you expand on these roles?

Chinese: 有人形容你们的创始人是一位茶叶专家，也是当地的社区领袖。你能进一步介绍这些角色吗？

Our founder, Mr. Sun Yunshan, is an inheritor of local tea-making techniques and a contributor to drafting several technical standards (for example, Xinyang White Tea – 2024). However, he does not consider himself a “tea expert.” He is deeply attached to his homeland, loves tea, enjoys research and exploration, and is enthusiastic about helping others. He is a young man with ambition and vision.

⸻

3. To what extent does your production company also function as a tea cooperative—beyond purchasing and processing materials, and including other forms of cooperation with local farmers?

Chinese: 你们的生产企业在多大程度上承担着“茶叶合作社”的角色？

Our company has a certain scale and influence in the local area and is the only large-scale enterprise in our administrative village. We voluntarily take on the responsibility of ensuring stable purchasing, processing, and income growth for local tea farmers. Since our establishment, we have purchased fresh leaves without limit, continuously expanded production capacity, and extended the production period so that tea farmers can earn more income. We also undertake ecological pest control, ecological tea garden construction, maintenance of the certified Green Food production base, and offer free technical training to farmers.

4. To what extent did government economic or agricultural support contribute to founding or expanding your company into tea production?

Chinese: 政府在经济或农业发展方面的支持，对你们企业的创立或扩展起到了多大作用？

The government provides certain construction-related programs, generally in the form of proportional subsidies. However, the subsidy ratio is relatively low, the procedures are complicated, and they require early planning, which often does not align with the company’s own development plans. At present, we receive only minimal subsidies.

⸻

5. What are the main local types of tea produced in your area (Xinyang, Henan)?

Chinese: 你们所在地主要生产哪些本地茶类？

In Xinyang City and Shangcheng County, traditional green tea is the primary product. Over the past decade, black tea production has been steadily developed and improved. In recent years, white tea has also grown rapidly and is currently undergoing further transformation.

yellow teas from them, reviewed here

6. I’ve tried Dong Fang Mei Ren and yellow tea from your company. What motivates you to experiment with teas from other regions or historical tea types?

Chinese: 你们尝试其他产区或历史茶类的动力是什么？

Our company has expanded from producing only green tea to producing all six major categories of Chinese tea: green, black, white, oolong, yellow, and dark tea. Over ten years ago, we realized that green tea alone had a relatively narrow consumer base and was more difficult to store. Based on market demand, we began developing black tea, white tea, oolong tea, yellow tea, and dark tea. Last year, we also incorporated tea tree flowers, honeysuckle, mulberry leaf tea, and wild chrysanthemum into our product line.

By adjusting the production structure, expanding product categories, and extending the production cycle, we aim to explore more potential from our local ecological advantages and high-quality fresh leaves. Extending production from the traditional spring-only season to all four seasons not only diversifies products but also reduces inventory pressure and increases farmers’ income year-round, motivating them to better maintain their tea gardens.

⸻

7. How does your “Green Food” certification compare with international organic testing and certification standards?

Chinese: 你们的“绿色标识”认证与国际有机标准相比，有哪些异同？

The Green Food label is certified by the China Green Food Development Center. It is similar to international organic testing standards, though some testing values differ. Over the past five years, teas produced in our Green Food certified base have been tested by multiple domestic institutions, and the results consistently show: no detectable pesticide residues and no excess heavy metals.

⸻

8. To what extent do these developments reflect national trends across China—such as increased production capacity, government support, and cross-regional or hybrid tea styles?

Chinese: 这些发展在多大程度上反映了中国茶行业的普遍趋势？

China’s tea production capacity continues to increase steadily and is relatively oversupplied. Adjusting the industry structure and expanding product categories helps small enterprises survive and also eases sales pressure. For example, black tea, white tea, oolong tea, and dark tea have longer storage periods. In particular, white tea and dark tea improve in flavor with aging and have certain collectible value. Storing tea among the general population helps balance variations in annual production and changing market demand, reducing the risk of extreme shortages.

⸻

9. Is the tea industry continually evolving?

Chinese: 茶产业是否在持续演变？

There will always be new research and innovation in the tea industry. However, tea is a culturally rooted product, and as the saying goes, “everything changes, but the fundamentals remain.” Therefore, the six major tea categories and traditional tea-drinking practices will not change drastically. The rise of new-style tea beverages mainly serves to expand usage scenarios and attract more consumers; it does not significantly affect traditional tea culture.

⸻

10. How is awareness of and demand for tea changing among Chinese consumers?

Chinese: 中国消费者对茶的认知与需求正在发生怎样的变化？

With improved living standards and economic conditions, the number of tea drinkers in China is increasing. People who previously did not drink tea have begun to drink tea or tea-based beverages. Consumers who used to drink tea without caring about quality are now exploring more varieties and seeking higher-quality teas—and this trend will continue.

⸻

11. Traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) concepts are not widely understood in the West. How are these ideas perceived and applied within modern mainstream Chinese culture?

Chinese: 在现代中国主流文化中，中医理念是如何被接受和应用的？

Although Western and Chinese cultures clashed during China’s reform and opening-up period, this did not diminish people’s confidence in the TCM principle of pattern-based diagnosis. In recent years, TCM-based wellness practices and medicinal-food therapies have modernized traditional consumption methods to better align with contemporary lifestyles. Many people now use medicinal-food-homology herbs as daily tea beverages. For example, the honeysuckle tea, mulberry leaf tea, and wild chrysanthemum tea produced by our company are all TCM herbs. As people deepen their understanding of TCM concepts, many can determine their own physical conditions and use common herbs for maintenance and health regulation.

⸻

12. Does this extend beyond seasonal tea drinking—for example, choosing teas according to physical conditions such as tiredness or illness?

Chinese: 是否也包括根据身体状况调整饮茶选择？

According to TCM theories, people can easily identify changes in their physical state. For instance:

• When internal heat is high, they drink green tea, yellow tea, or white tea.

• When the body is cold, they drink black tea, dark tea, or oolong.

They also adjust tea choices based on the time of day—green tea in the morning for alertness, white tea in the afternoon for calmness. Moreover:

• Spring: green or yellow tea

• Summer: white tea or oolong

• Autumn & winter: black tea or dark tea

Closing thoughts

It was interesting how the ideas transitioned from local producer background, on to broader Chinese production issues and cultural trends, then to practical daily tea drinking practices.  I think that last section will resonate with a lot of American tea enthusiasts.