Placing different kinds of tea vendors in relation to types

 

Over and over people ask online about others' favorite vendors, and one part that gets lost is that there are different kinds of vendors, with different focuses.  Value can vary a lot, and quality level of tea.  Range of what is available from each varies.  

I'm going to try to place different kinds of vendors by category, mostly through the lens of trying teas from a few sources in the past half a year.  I'll need to extend that, to get to other main types and source examples, because I've only bought tea from four sources this year, that come to mind (online; I keep buying tea from a favorite local Chinatown shop, mostly to give away, but also for myself).  That's a lot compared to last year; more than for the whole year.  Of course these aren't intended to represent optimum sources; they just match my own preferences.

Related to the Reddit tea vendors list capture, the image at the beginning, it's strange that there is only three categories there, for beginners, US sources, and teaware.  That leaves out most applicable range, for the rest of the world, and for everyone who isn't a beginner (although it still probably works for 90% of that sub / group).  It's interesting that one cited source, for beginners, mentions curated tea selling for 10 to 30 cents per gram.  That's something of a contradiction, for reasons this further content will describe.

I'll start with a couple main types of sources I didn't get to, and then move on to examples of what I've tried, and how I see those mapping to categories and other comparable source options.  There are pros and cons of using different kinds of sources, that relate to what someone is looking for, in terms of type / style, and value, which I'm describing as cost in relation to quality level.  

A relatively low quality version of tea can still be a great value, if selling for a very low and fair price.  Of course that's only if someone is ok with drinking that tea.  A really costly tea can still be a great value, if quality level, rarity, and market demand all support that it's worth it.  

To put a rough price range to that anything under 10 cents a gram is selling at the low end, for specialty tea.  Under 5 typically relates to a different quality range entirely, for mass-produced, pretty limited in quality tea versions.  You can generally buy really good quality, in-demand versions for 60 or 70 cents per gram, and it all levels off quite a bit around $1 / gram (which is the first reference to why "curated" tea selling for 30 cents a gram or less makes no sense; you can only curate the medium quality level range for that pricing, which is still pretty good tea, but "curation" implies that it's better than that).

This won't mostly be about evaluating value for different kinds of sources, but as I see it that's one main running theme, along with how good the teas actually are, and how unique the teas being offered are.  You can buy above average Anxi Tie Guan Yin from lots of places, or Jin Xuan rolled oolong in Thailand; this is mostly about teas that are more unique, and harder to find.

Places I don't shop

Online market outlets:  in the past Chawang Shop was sort of an exception to this, and I had great experiences buying tea from them.  Yunnan Sourcing is really the main example (and I've had positive experiences buying tea from them too).  King Tea Mall is a well-known and typically favorably regarded source, but according to some Yunnan Sourcing products may be a little more consistent.  King Tea Mall is probably buying and selling more online, and Yunnan Sourcing would use pretty well established upstream sources at this point, since they were already around 20 years ago, operating out of Kunming.

These kinds of vendors offer everything under the sun.  That's less true of Chawang Shop, but I'm using this categorization in a positive sense for them, claiming that they offer a broad range of tea types across a range of quality levels at decent value.  Here's an interesting in-house Jinggu shou pu'er I bought from Chawang Shop 4 years ago, probably not typical of what they sell, but then I'm claiming here that they sell different things, varying grades of sheng and shou, and hei cha, so in a sense it is.  That tea was unusually inexpensive ($15 for 400 gram brick), because they were selling it before it was settled (from fermentation funkiness) as a special offering, and you really need to hold onto it for a couple of years to get good results out of it.

Filtering related to what you want to find is a requirement, and there would be hits and misses, related to quality level and value.  Getting input from others through online group discussion could be helpful.  In the past text blogs or sites like Steepster filled this role, but now Discord discussion is probably more helpful.  Facebook is more or less dying, in relation to tea discussion, and Reddit tea subs tend to be stuck on people repeating the exact same beginner questions every single day. 

Especially related to Yunnan Sourcing the option to buy at sample quantity is a main benefit of using such a source type.  You can buy a couple of dozen samples for the same price as buying a lot of just a few kinds of tea, which you may not like.  Per gram value isn't as good, but it's not a great value buying a tea you don't want to drink.

It would sound as if I've moved on to narrow down sources that work even better for me, and I guess that's fair.

Higher end producer direct sites:  there aren't many of these.  Wuyi Origin is a main example, ran by a family member--as a frontperson--by Cindy Chen, selling great quality Wuyi Yancha, Fujian black tea, and Dan Cong, Chaozhou oolong.  Usually a source selling a broad range is a bad sign, because then they're typically just reselling wholesale outlet sourced teas, or else Taobao sourced versions, but that vendor has family in both places (Wuyishan, Fujian and Chaozhou, Guangdong).

I would buy tea from them, but I've drifted into preference for sheng pu'er.  It happens to people.  They're a fantastic source for really good quality oolong and black teas, which are great ranges for almost everyone.  But tea that good is on the costly side, typically above 30 or 40 cents per gram, with many at 60 or so.  That's still a great value, given that other "curator" sources would sell the same quality level versions for around $1 / gram instead.  

I did just buy tea from a Thai producer, which is another example of a different form of producer-direct sourcing, but I'll list that in the next section.

Gopaldhara is a good example of a Darjeeling garden that sells directly, both within India and outside it (through two different pages).  Their teas are exceptional; they fit the "higher end" description in this category heading.  There are other resale outlets that buy and distribute Indian teas, like Vahdam and Golden Tips, and those are ok too, but buying directly is generally better.  You can find better tea and better values.

really good first and second flush versions from Gopaldhara, reviewed in 2020

Curator sources:  there are a few different variations of these, and they kind of run together with ordinary broad type online sources.  A favorite I recommend is Trident Bookseller and Cafe, in Boulder.  They evolved to source award winning and otherwise amazing versions over time, to sell in-house, and eventually expanded that to limited online sales.  They don't push to expand volume, to contend with other larger outlets; it supplements their other business themes and income streams.

Value is great through them; for what they sell the pricing is really low.  That's only possible because they're a lot more producer direct than almost any other sources.  In a sense they're doing what Tealet had set out to do more than a decade ago, but left off at becoming just another wholesale vendor instead (which is fine; that's the model that ended up working).   I suppose their business model might be problematic, for ramping up volume and earnings.  Trying to sell the best teas at a good value would cut into your potential profit margin, and it might be hard to really ramp up volume.

Why do you never hear of a source like Trident then?  In part due to gatekeeping; people wouldn't mention it to help prevent ruining their own source.  In part because their existing consumer base is probably limited.  And then they don't use a lot of standard broad-form advertising to help with exposure, as a larger volume oriented source like Rishi does.

Other curator or specialty themed vendors are out there, but I can't mention any related to using them as a source.  Floating Leaves for Taiwanese oolongs gets mentioned as an example, but again I've not purchased anything from them.  A good quality curator source in the US would need to sell at high market value just to profit, so their teas would end up all being priced around $1 / gram, which I can't afford.  In terms of old-school, established outlets Tea Habitat has been a known Dan Cong vendor for a long time, since US tea enthusiast circles first came to be back in the early 2000s.  

An example of an established online vendor who blurs this line, with that of an ordinary mixed-types source, might be Seven Cups.  They started as a Wuyishan area main source, and probably retain that focus, but as I recall they were positioned in between the range of curator (selling the best versions at high cost) and an ordinary source (more average quality, selling for less to emphasize value).  This really could be the sweet spot for a lot of people.

Why would you buy tea from them, if you could get better versions for less through Wuyi Origin?  I suppose you wouldn't, if that were true, and you knew about it.  But they would carry more range, and at some point people find sources they like and stop looking.  They don't always want to make it their life's mission to buy the best teas for the best value; they just want to be able to order good tea for good value.  

Most people also aren't going to read 2000 or so word blog post about the subject, which is fine, very understandable.

Where I buy tea (mostly this year, as an example)

I'll use where I've been buying tea as an example, starting with kind of an anomaly.

Rishi / larger outlets:  I only bought two versions from them this year, Thai and Lao sheng versions (pu'er, if that was from Yunnan, but lacking any type name if from South East Asia).  I kept wondering what their versions were like, so finally just ordered some to see (even though they don't represent where I usually buy tea).  They were ok.  They don't hold up well in competition from producer direct sources, but then that's kind of a main running theme here, that you get the best value buying as directly as possible, or from specialized vendors, when possible from sources outside the US.

They would still be fine for buying decent value, higher volume, broad type range, surely better than the average mall outlet that might be nearby.  There aren't that many mall outlets nearby now, since many malls failed in the US, and Teavana folded (was bought by Starbucks, then largely shelved).  

Some of Rishi's other sheng could be better than what I tried; it probably is.  You can't judge a source or a producer from one or two tea versions.  Or a tea type; you see that happen a lot in online discussion, and it just doesn't work.

Wawee Tea / direct Thai sourcing:  oddly I'm not mentioning this as a good option for most readers; they typically wouldn't sell directly outside of Thailand.  But I've just bought really exceptional Thai sheng and black tea from them, and reviewed both here.  

That's a normal, running theme in South East Asian countries; you can buy local versions from very small outlets, or even good sized producers, that wouldn't be readily available / Western facing, through Facebook pages and such.  

Thailand has two online shopping platforms, variations of Amazon or Ebay, in Shopee and Lazada.  Existing small vendors would often sell their teas through there.  There would be even more such sources in Vietnam, another favorite broad origin for me, so let's move on to a Western facing outlet from there next.  I should mention first that 101 Plantation is an example of a main, high volume producer in Thailand, for buying rolled oolong and such, and my favorite Chinatown shop is Jip Eu.  You could buy their teas through Shopee, I think (both of them), but not from abroad.

Viet Sun:  I've bought the most tea from Viet Sun over the past 3 or 4 years, of any source.  They're "Western facing," meaning set up for international shipping, and in the past for credit card payment use, although they mentioned preferring other payment options when I last ordered from them, just a month and a half ago.  Their teas are great.  

Y Ty (Lao Cai) indigenous village produced Viet Sun sheng (reviewed here)

these are so complex that they seem a little different every time I try them

There's a common theme among new, great value, new format vendors that they tend to sell range that's hard to find at great pricing, then later as demand catches up it's more in a normal Western market range.  Their sheng cakes might be priced from $80 to $120 now, or 200 gram versions for half of that; just normal price range, for lots of outlet types.  That would've been $60 to 80 3 or 4 years ago.  Part of that is inflation, and a lot is demand for that supplied tea bumping up.  I doubt that any of it is them increasing their mark-up rate, although that's at least possible.  People find out about types ranges and sources, then demand increases, and costs, starting at producers demanding more.  Usually quality becomes a little more consistent too, so better value is filled in a little on the other end, maybe just not enough to offset higher pricing.

Hatvala had been the earlier more market oriented source I used from Vietnam, and they're still there, and would still be a good source.  That change related in part to me switching to pu'er preference.  They sell some Vietnamese sheng, as maocha (loose versions), but Viet Sun specializes in it, and seeks out a broader range of perhaps more novel offerings.

Back to Thai themes:  Tea Side would be "our" equivalent source.  Their pricing is probably higher than either of these two Vietnamese sources, perhaps related to them leaning into the mark-up a bit more than is the case for those two Vietnamese sources.  As a unique source option whatever they set is the standard market price, because there aren't alternatives.  You have to by sheng for 40 or 50 cents a gram instead of 25 or 30 if there aren't any other options, or just don't buy it.  Maybe it's that limited production at the quality range they sell pushes that same theme "up" a level, and those few higher quality option producers can keep demanding more, as I said was probably now occurring in Vietnam.

Let's check on that, by reference to their pages and offerings.

These are Viet Sun's brand new cake offerings, selling for $45 to 53 for 200 gram versions, so for between just under $90 per standard 357 gram size--which they don't sell--and around $100 on the higher side.  That's actually not bad; that tea is better than just about any Western source version for $100 per standard cake size.

Tea Side's 200 gram cakes are selling for $65 to 85, based on the first four listings, for 32 cents to 42 cents per 100 grams, or $115 to $150 per 357 gram cake quantity.  Is it better than Viet Sun's versions?  I really don't know; it has been awhile since I tried it.  Maybe only equivalent, based on what I last tried however long ago, maybe 5 years back or more.

For someone less concerned about value, about price per gram, and for whom spending a few hundred dollars on tea isn't that much of an expense, then buying a good bit of both teas would make sense, and comparing the two.  It's not like when you order too much fresh green tea, and then a half a year later it's not as good.  Oolongs hold up well to even a couple of years of storage, and sheng changes in ways that are often seen as improvements, as hei cha do.

To me these types of teas evolve well over the first two years, even for styles that aren't favorable for even middle time frame aging, transitioning some over 6 to 8 years.  You can't really buy a 200 gram cake and plan to drink some and then keep some for 20 years, to see a full transition, or at least if you did there wouldn't be much for either consumption purpose.  

I personally wouldn't age these styles of teas anyway (SE Asian sheng, in general).  I tend to only ever experience such teas as 10 or so year old versions, and we can't be sure that the styles from 20 years ago were identical.

Here are some examples of how that has went in practice; reviewing a 2014 Wawee Tea Thai sheng version, and a 2017 version, in 2023, so 6 and 9 year old versions.  Those teas were good, and not really through a more complete 20 to 25 year transition cycle just yet, so it was early to judge them.  This review covers two 2006 Hong Tai Chang versions, reviewed in 2018, with one from Tea Side, so those two were a dozen years old then, just a little further along.  One of those I own a cake of, unless I've got the version wrong, and it's a similar one.  Not so much of it is left now, but I have some I could try as a 20 year old tea.  It's fine, but it would be better if I was more into aged sheng.

I think I'm really referencing three different styles of tea.  The old HTC versions were made by a foreign (Thai) based Chinese producer back then, and Wawee Tea was making their own versions, without direct outside input, back in 2014 to 2017.  The plant material may be the same today, the same exact plants, but we can't be sure that the style is exactly the same.  Presumably they would've only improved processing over time, but there could've been some style shift, to being just different, versus better.  For "better" we need to include "better how," better to drink as new tea or more suitable for 20+ year aging.

Even if someone tries all of these teas just mentioned, as I have, it's difficult to say exactly what you are experiencing is better, worse, or different in style a decade later.  In this writing in 2015 I'm reviewing 2004 Thai "pu'er-style" versions, again from Tea Side, but I can't place how much my own perspective on the same teas has varied in 11 years.  So we make of it what we can.

Unconventional but standard vendor sources:  Tea Mania is the main source that comes to mind related to this (based in Switzerland; that's different).  

That vendor has shared samples with me a couple of times over the last few years, and I've bought more tea from them than from almost any source over the past decade, probably more in total than from Viet Sun.  Not so much recently, because I've been focusing on South East Asian versions and sources.  The styles coming out of Thailand, Vietnam, and Lao have become personal favorites.  Myanmar teas are great too; I've tried a good bit of those, and still own some, some of which has been aging at home for around a decade.

Tea Mania is one of the best sources online, per my judgment, even if only based on their Lucky Bee value oriented Yiwu cakes line.  Their other gushu range versions are more exceptional, of course, but not in terms of value, of quality and pleasantness in relation to prices.  You just can't buy decent Yiwu at low prices.

Tea Mania 2021 Jing Mai and 2022 Yiwu sheng pu'er

Since the main theme here is where I've been buying tea recently I might mention some tea that's in-transit.  I bought a couple of value oriented cakes from Chen Sheng Hao, after reviewing a cool sample set of mini cakes from them a couple of years ago.  Those were higher end, more exceptional teas, but I can't really be buying 50 to 80 cent per gram versions, so this order was about following up on someone commenting online that their lower cost blends are really good.  We'll see; I'll be writing about that a couple of times over the next few weeks.

Some other vendors have been sending me tea that fall into this range.  By "unconventional" I mean outside the normal Yunnan Sourcing / Crimson Lotus / etc., etc. paradigm.  You don't tend to see Chen Sheng Hao mentioned in places like the Reddit r/tea recommended vendors list.  Oriental Leaf, a vendor based in China, sent some exceptional hei cha versions over the past couple of years, novel variations of Fu zhuan or Fu brick teas; they work as another example.  Or Legend of Tea, a Malaysia based vendor, sent some Liu Bao and sheng to review, and they're probably as good a source as any for aged Liu Bao.

Oriental Leaf Fu zhuan hei cha (based on white tea)

     

Atypical naming stands out about one of those sources; the term "oriental" fell out of favor in "the West" about 15 years ago, regarded as pejorative (as negative).  Here in Bangkok they don't keep up with that kind of political correctness; businesses still use that term in business names, and the average person wouldn't be aware of that change.  But then people mostly only use English as a second language, which changes things.

It could seem odd to buy tea from abroad, in other countries than where it is from, from vendors who aren't producer sources.  But it would make sense to, if they could source better tea than standard US or European vendors are selling, and sell it for less than those places.  You would be "getting in on" lower local pricing in other markets, in this case in China and Malaysia.  Shipping would add extra cost, but it costs money to ship within one country, so it's only adding the difference between that and international shipping.  If it's $20 more then buying at volume could offset that, by a lot.

Let's add a reviewed example of that, from one of those sources, from Legend of Tea (out of Malaysia) to make that point clearer:

Legend of Tea 2024 Mengsong sheng pu'er (reviewed in this blog here in 2025)

This tea sells for 118 RM (Malaysian Ringgit), which is equivalent to $29, for a 200 gram cake.  That price looks like a citation mistake, doesn't it?  3 or 4 years ago it would've been more normal.  Their description:

This year's Xiao Ba Wang is sourced from ecological tea trees in the high mountains of Mengsong Da Man Lü, this sheng Pu-erh boasts a fresh, sweet aroma complemented by the distinctive alpine forest fragrance. Its naturally refreshing profile is soft, sweet, and intricately layered, offering a gentle yet rich tea-drinking experience. Each sip reveals a long-lasting sweetness with a refreshing, full-bodied aroma that lingers delightfully.

That's $50-some for a 357 gram amount that sounds like Yunnan Sourcing's higher end $110-120 or so current Impression cakes.  My review notes adds my impression:

#2:  depth and complexity pick up.  Bitterness starts, but that's still moderate.  Mineral undertone is pronounced, of course in a light mineral range, nothing like in Wuyi Yancha or other roasted oolongs.  Flavor seems to include floral tones, and a creamy sort of feel is adjoined by a touch of creamy flavor.  Sounds like oolong range, doesn't it?  But the feel structure of this is sheng, and the included bitterness, even if it's not challenging...

#4:  more of the same; it isn't changing quickly.  Aftertaste and bitterness may both dial up slightly.  Intensity is definitely good, and again the balance and overall effect is nice, the lack of flaws.  Flavor range doesn't extend to anything so interesting, but it comes across as good tea, pleasant and intense.  

I think I'm feeling the effects already... 

So it was pretty good, which I was characterizing as on the basic side, because I'd been drinking a good bit of distinctive, high quality, kind of expensive gushu around then, teas more in the 80 cents a gram range, $150+ for 200 gram cakes instead of $30.  

I've tried that since, and it's pretty good tea, relatively speaking.  It's much, much better than any standard factory tea; maybe two full levels above that.  I mean in relation to Dayi 7542, and also to many others that don't have the external image of being benchmark versions.  For $50-some for a standard size cake it's underpriced by a lot; from just about any other sources it would cost closer to $100, or maybe over that.

What are standard vendor sources then?

This last category description raises a question:  if those are unconventional exceptions, as sources go, what are the most conventional options?

Yunnan Sourcing comes to mind, but that's only a conventional, standard option related to a category, to what I'm calling a market style vendor, one who sells many produce categories and product versions (thousands, in their China based site, and still a lot in their US site).

For pu'er other main vendors are Farmerleaf, White 2 Tea, Crimson Lotus, and Bitterleaf (beyond King Tea Mall and Chawang Shop being good options, again what I'm calling market style vendors).  They would "only" sell a few dozen versions at any given time, a good selection, but limited enough that you could page through it.  

Rishi, which I mentioned, and Adagio are examples of older form, generalist, medium quality, higher volume outlets.  There's nothing wrong with preferring some relatively conventional rolled oolong, or whatever else might seem a bit standard.  People often like some teas as a comfort tea, or to drink with food, and preferences change over time.

To me Teasenz is a good example of a generalist vendor, based out of China, one who sells a little of different things, that is well-regarded and a good value.  Why them, when there are probably 100 relatively similar outlets online?  It's just an example I'm familiar with, and they've put the time in to be somewhat established as a known brand.  I've bought tea from them at least a couple of times, and it was good, nothing too amazing, but good for what it was represented as.  Actually a shai hong pressed cake I bought in 2017 was well beyond that, this tea; they could also find versions that stand out.

Really there aren't standard generalist vendors, typically.  One builds up an image related to a main theme and type range, if at all (like Yunomi for Japanese teas, or those other pu'er vendors already mentioned).  In some cases they grow to be well-regarded standard options, but more often their businesses just succeed, and they do a little better year to year.

On foreigners retiring to Thailand

 

The idea of possibly retiring to a lower cost of living country comes up in online discussions.  It relates to people identifying that US social security isn't enough to live on, and that their own retirement savings seems a bit thin.  The numbers you see vary, but per a quick check with Google 40% of all Americans have no retirement savings, and that only reduces to 20% for Americans over 50.

This isn't about all of that.  It's not even about complications in living abroad, although I will start with that theme, to explain what may not work well, or why it wouldn't work at all for some people.  I wanted to explain what retirement tends to look like in Thailand, how people tend to live.  Obviously I'm drawing on online communicated stereotypes and discussions; I don't know all that many retired people.  But for many it's a complete blank, and I want to help fill that in, since I've been living in Thailand for awhile (about 18 years).  Of course scope will be narrow, just thoughts or range that comes to mind, in part related to questions that come up.  Like these:

How developed is Thailand?  What do different areas look like?  Do expats / foreigners tend to live in "enclaves," or not?  What are different area options, versus just city, rural, and beach or island based?

Let's start with the problems.

Difficulties / problems

Oddly a visa isn't one of them.  With sufficient savings or proof of income anyone can get a retirement visa in Thailand.  I suppose if someone is quite poor meeting these minimums could be a real hurdle, if they are living on zero savings and social security.  But for many it would just relate to issues with proof, demonstrating that security with or without pulling out funds to place in a Thai bank for demonstration purposes (which might be required).

If someone isn't retirement age (I'm not sure the cutoff) they might have a different problem, since they probably wouldn't be eligible.  Thailand offers other visas, for investors, or shortcuts if you pay extra.  I suppose from there someone could try a work-around instead, to get an education visa to go to a low cost institution, whether they are really studying or pursuing an educational goal or not.  

Thailand continually weeds out people manipulating visa channels, using them improperly, but there would still be exceptions to work with.  It would be for the best to not rely on "work arounds" that involve cheating the system though.  People of different ages could take part in different forms of education, and in Thailand it might be broad enough that you could learn muay Thai or cooking, versus being in a degreed university program.  It's crazy how inexpensive and broadly themed vocational education options are in Thailand, but that applies a lot more to Thais, and foreigners would need to do a lot of research.

Communication both is and isn't a problem.  Enough people speak English that even out in rural areas you could manage transportation and buying food and such, with essentially no Thai language skills.  But it would make for an uncomfortable life experience, only learning a few basic words.  Speaking a few hundred words, even badly, would go a long way.  That's not that difficult.

In the short term society seeing you as an outsider might not be so negative, but in the long run it may not feel comfortable.  The US forms of racism or bias against immigrants isn't copied over; it would take another factor or two for someone to get beat up over it.  So this leads to the potential "enclaves" or expat gathering center theme I'll get back to, about people gathering together around others with similar background, to experience a limited and very local familiar culture, which I'll cover related to how that works out by area (in a few cases; none of this is comprehensive).

Missing home is the real issue.  Lots of people love the differences in an early honeymoon period.  New foods can seem fantastic, and low cost of living really freeing.  Problems that you would expect not coming up, the racism theme, could seem like more acceptance than it really relates to.  Romantic options could seem open (more for guys, and that tends to take a pay-for-play form, whether that's explicit or not).  But lots of familiarity is also missing.  Driving is more difficult, for awhile, and food options aren't the same.  Interactions with government systems are difficult, for example getting a driver's license, which you can do.  Beyond any of that it can get old being an outsider.  Or I suppose anomalies would come up, like someone not tolerating hotter weather well.

Different locations

Pattaya:  the sex tourism capital; for one type of transplant this is the obvious choice.  There's not much more to add about that.  Some people claim that Pattaya is really fine for living a life that's not based around that, but it's really all over the place there.  You could appreciate Western food or decent medical care options there instead, and I suppose if you lived in a quiet and out of the way part the sex industry might not come up much.  But in general if you are there it's for that.

Phuket:  this other main resort area might provide a better balance for people not so focused on the sexpat theme.  It's an option in places there, but it looks and feels like a normal island resort too.  There is a "downtown" part, and shopping, dining, and medical care are probably all fine (I've experienced the first two, on visits, just not hospital visitation).  There are a number of muay Thai gyms there; I suppose some few older guys, or women, might take up training to stay in shape.  Beaches are a little cleaner and more conventional than in Pattaya.  You can visit Rayong and go out on snorkeling outings not so far out of Pattaya too, but Phuket is more what one would expect for an island or seaside resort.  Our kids took surf lessons there on a visit once.

surfing in Phuket; I'm sure it would get better than that at times, in other places

recently in Waikiki; conventional sized waves, that can get a lot bitter

It's interesting hearing about how there are too many Russians in some places, or whoever else, increasing crime rates.  People who spend lots of time in bars tend to pick up a different perspective than I'd ever have.  It's nothing like Mexican cartels making some places unsafe.  Older guys do tend to die a bit often in Pattaya, per a favorite online story line, but it's probably more related to suicide than due to others' choices, even if both happen regularly.  

All of Thailand is pretty safe.  Drinking every day is a much higher risk than foul play.  This is just my take, but it seems like the darker the aspects are related to your lifestyle the more your risks escalate.  People doing illegal drugs bring risk on themselves, for example, and even more by drug dealing.  There's a favorite story line about foreigners being taken advantage of just for investing a lot of money, especially related to marrying a Thai, and I suppose if a lot of money is at stake potential risks could increase.  Trusting random people with millions of baht is probably a bad idea.

Isaan:  this is really where a lot of older guys end up, and a much smaller proportion of female retirees.  It's a great place to lead a quiet life.  The harsh, sometimes true story of a foreigner building a house in his wife's name, and then being cheated out of everything, must happen from time to time, but in general many more people must just lead quiet lives instead.  Foreigners can't own land, which could lead to those circumstances, having property and a house in your wife's name.  Or renting could work.

I think people just love those stories, and there is no story if some guy lives out 20 quiet years.  Probably in some cases the real details about someone experiencing ordinary misfortune aren't interesting enough, so that gets spun into something else.

One downside of Isaan life could be that it's pretty quiet there.  It's not different than in rural areas anywhere else.  That could sound good to someone, and could be experienced as very positive, then a year or two later it might not seem as pleasant and balanced.  I remember meeting local expats in a hotel gym / spa area once, talking a little about how life goes out there.  They didn't make it sound bad, at all, but there was a sort of desperation related to any mention of boredom.  To be clear where I'm from, in rural Pennsylvania (the US), it would be worse.  There aren't small communities on the same scale as nearby, just mostly small towns and tiny villages, and almost no one is moving there from anywhere else.  The one upside, related to the US, is that the roads are a little better, so you can travel further at a faster pace, so it all balances back out.

They have small local markets and food courts in different places all over, but you can tell this is Bangkok instead by the elevated highway.  Apparently I don't take that many pictures of normal markets when we visit smaller towns, but I do have others.

a Lopburi monument (there would be things like this in lots of places)

inside that monument.  what remains in places varies a lot.

all of those monkeys are all around you outside, and on the streets.

a sidewalk fruit market there is pretty typical.

Thai history goes back to the stone age, with interesting stages in between then and now.

Roads are pretty decent in Isaan, but it's all relative.  The main highways aren't like US interstates, and "country roads" can be a bit basic.  It doesn't seem unsafe to me, driving in rural Thailand, but you have to pay more attention, and adjust speed for conditions.  It goes a lot better than you might expect, but at the same time longer distances take a bit more time, compared to road travel in the US.

this could be lots of places, but I think it's in Trat

One might wonder what is out there, beyond farms, and small towns.  Temples, of course.  Plenty of parks, and some museums.  Historical areas turn up here or there.  It's funny how often expats complain of dual pricing, of paying more to enter natural areas and parks, but I suppose if you were going to them frequently paying 300 baht ($10) instead of 30 could seem a bit insulting, especially if you pay a lot more taxes than most Thais.  I don't know that it's mostly about the actual expense.  

They do the same thing here, in Hawaii, and visitors from anywhere else pay to go to some places that are free to locals (Hawaii residents).  I get it; the idea is to protect your local residents from experiencing costs meant to be imposed on visitors.  And that seems to be the rub for resident expats; they see themselves as local residents.  But they're not Thai.

Bangkok / Chiang Mai:  I was going to list out lots of places foreigners tend to live in Bangkok, but this is already running long.  It's possible to find that out online.  As I see it Chiang Mai is fairly comparable to Bangkok, maybe just better for being a little bit less of a sprawling mess, even though their traffic was already bad enough a decade ago, and must be much worse now.  

where I run around a palace in Bangkok.  I'm not going to show much of the city though.

a canal area on the walk to a local market near our house (in Bangkok)

a temple on the way (of course)

these drainage canals are cool, but can be a little smelly

Let's run through where some expats live in Bangkok though:

Udom Suk:  one main transplant hub, on "deep Sukhumvit," that might be called, versus lower Sukhumvit.  Suhumvit is the main road in Bangkok, essentially, running east and west with a N / S tilt to it.  This is on the far side, out east, and south, towards Bangna.  The areas are summarized as BTS (skytrain) stops; really the two stops on either side of Udom Suk aren't so different, since they're not that far.  There would be plenty of apartment complexes there, and restaurant options, with lots of it local in character (cheaper, more casual).  Even further out there are other areas, including Bangna, and foreigners would end up living all over the place.

Tong Lo / Ekamai:  the next level closer to a center of the city, but there is no singular center.  Maybe the Siam BTS stop area is more like a center, but it's not that.  These are trendier, and probably costlier areas.  Further on yet Asok is a main intersection area, again still on Sukhumvit and that BTS line, maybe as much the main center for expats to live as anywhere else.  There's a red light area beside Asok, Soi Cowboy.  I'm not sure that's the primary reason for its popularity; there is a lot of things right there, including a main mall (Terminal 21), a few shopping areas, a nearby large park, and so on.

These places would be more costly, but you could still find ordinary apartments around there for 20 to 30,000 per month, I think ($600 to $1000 USD).  High rises with a pool and gym would probably run on the high side, but there would be other kinds of options.  Other costs of living would still be kind of low.  It's a little hard to summarize what I mean by that, since running through costs for food, groceries, different kinds of restaurants, gyms, and so one would make for a good 1000 word summary.  You can buy a bowl of noodles for not very much all over, $1 or 2.  Groceries never cost that much.  In restaurants more oriented towards a higher end or more foreign clientele costs rise, but it's generally nothing like where I am now, in Honolulu, where $30 doesn't go very far to get something to eat.  You could spend that at Subway, and not get much for it.

There's a Japanese expat area near Phrom Phong, not far from Asok.  I don't keep track of those sorts of separate foreign origin areas, but of course Chinatown has connections back to China, and there's a little India, of sorts.  There is Middle Eastern influence around the Nana area, which contains another red light area.  Those red light areas tend to be a bit self-contained, so someone could live 100 meters outside of one and not really be that affected by it.  That's because it's not really an illegal business, even though in one sense it may not be fully formally sanctioned.  That part is complicated.

Siam:  people don't tend to live here.  There's no zoning for what can be built where, but more commercial areas tend to not include that much housing.  There would always be small apartment complexes not too far away, or a more pricey highrise kind of resident option almost anywhere.

Sathorn / Silom:  these are nice areas, beside each other.  Silom is also pretty commercial, but it's a decent size place, so there would be places to live around.  Sathorn is more a central business area and a residence area (it's much bigger; it has different sections).  There's no reason that Thais couldn't live in any of these places, but in general the local people we know are based from where their family had lived, or else they've moved into areas that seem a little more like suburbs, further out.  I've worked in Sathorn and Silom and most people had long commutes to get there.

Nonthaburi:  outside of Bangkok there are small areas where foreigners live, more of an enclave theme than what I've been describing.  Some might be in Nonthaburi, or at least a friend happened to live in such a place there.  There are very small complex areas where foreigners live within the city center too, for example not far from where the embassies tend to be.  I don't have much to add about such places.  Visiting one comes to mind, and it was nice how it was a small gated community (very small; maybe 15 small houses), with limited yard space for kids to play in.  That kind of standard form of a US suburb isn't common in the center of the city though, and may occur a lot more often a little further out.  Over by the airport my wife's close friend lives in such a complex. 

Sub-culture themes

There's an interesting divide between expats who pride themselves on integrating, and others who love Thailand but don't try to change themselves or their own lifestyle to fit in better.  It's all good, either way.  Of course people who are fluent in Thai, eat local foods, have local friends, and "get" the local culture can tend to express that's better.  Maybe I'm in the middle, even though I live in a Thai family, work in a Thai company, and was ordained as a monk at one point (as an example; that doesn't prove anything).

Expats can link up with other expats and still live a relatively local lifestyle, or naturally be introverted and somewhat isolated and still live a lot like a Thai.  Or they could pick and choose, and eat foreign foods, but play soccer (football) with Thais, and so on.

It comes up over and over that Thais aren't generally seeking out including a foreigner in their social circle, that it's hard to be fully accepted.  I suppose there is a perspective of foreigners being outsiders, which would take some effort to overcome.  Language issues would be part of that.  In the end foreigners do often find ways to link up with others, through sports themed groups, professional societies, or informal special interest groups.  If an expat is sort of passing through, only spending a few years in Bangkok, or elsewhere, it would just be easier that way.

It's interesting how some things are really simple and easy in Thailand, even more so than in the US, and other things are pretty difficult.  Maybe getting a driver's license is an example of a system designed to not work well in both places.  Medical care is pretty straightforward in Thailand, compared to in the US.  Quality of medical care varies, but plenty of that applies in the US as well, just less so.

Some pretty basic themes, like having someone cut your lawn, tend to work out better through personal contacts in Thailand, not so much whatever the modern equivalent of using yellow pages is (Google search?).  Lawns aren't so common in Bangkok; I mean across the rest of that scope, like getting treatment for termites.  My wife has so many personal connections with people who fix clothing, help around the house, are a better than average vet option, and so on.  There are always different ways to do different things, but some may not work out well.  Something easy, like being able to use a local pool to swim laps, may seem tricky, even though after you put the work into investigation multiple options would turn up.

It's for the best to avoid any involvement with Thai laws.  If you open a business you can't, of course, but foreigners would have very limited rights to do that, so it would be tricky to (and costly, but it is possible, with Thai partners).  I mean that you need actively observe cultural norms that overlap with legal issues, like not defaming others' public images online.  In the US you can do that, but not so much in Thailand.  Noise ordinances seem a bit less rigid, but again as an outsider you don't want to test those kinds of limits.  If your neighbors are really loud it's better not to follow suit.

Maybe these kinds of sub-themes could add up to not feeling at home, not knowing where all of the norms and restrictions lie.  It's atypical for men to walk around with no shirt on, but can you?  Probably, where it makes sense, but it's better not to.  

Transplant residents tend to not live in fear of violating the next norm, since Thais are pretty open and flexible, but different people would end up pushing it in different ways.  One former expat once gave me the advice that eventually I would have someone draw a weapon on me, which related entirely to how he was living, that it had led to that.  I'd have to think hard to recollect anyone speaking in an unkind manner, never mind anything like that.  But if you transplant your entire worldview and set of behaviors with you, instead of minding fitting in, maybe odd things could come up.

Another expat told me that after a few years I would equally not fit in anywhere, and I suppose there is something to that too.  I'm an outsider in Thailand and the US now, even though I feel at home in both places.

Recurring tourism themes in Hawaii and Thailand

 

not really on a bus tour

Not so long ago I ran across an article on Hawaiian tourism that expressed that visitor spending was stagnant, or perhaps even dropping.  This repeats a theme that comes up in Thai media regularly over the last 20 years, that they would prefer to attract a better, higher spending class of tourists, at times expressed as a more important goal than attracting more tourists.  I'll unpack a bit what I think is going on with both.  It's not exactly the same thing, but not different either.

The initial response is pretty obvious:  inflation has been rising in both places, quite quickly in the US over the past few years, and faster than previously in Thailand recently, so the same tourists are finding it difficult to match spending habits just a decade ago.  That's probably most of it.  But we can unpack it a bit more.

Starting with Thailand

The earlier problem there was tourism related to tours, framed as zero-dollar tours by Chinese tour groups, although that's probably only one main form.  Articles like this cover the general background, tourism statistics, and the emphasis on attracting higher spending visitors.  This reference from 2025 covers the same themes.  

This article introduces the topic, and the relation to the Tourism Authority of Thailand:

TAT Governor Thapanee Kiatphaibool said the 2026 direction shifts towards “Value Over Volume”, after weaker foreign demand was hit by factors such as natural disasters, scam-related concerns and the Thai–Cambodian border dispute, which affected travel sentiment and forced a more proactive marketing approach.

Targets: 36.7m foreigners, 205m+ domestic trips

One might wonder how they could adjust who visits; that first article cited mentions one idea:

“We’ve set the outline for TAT to accelerate tourists’ decisions by offering tailor-made tour packages that will match segments with high spending. For instance, the medical tourist segment, who book long-stay accommodation for themselves and their families, should have tour package options to purchase easily while in Thailand,” she said.

That doesn't sound very promising; people can already make arrangements with a foreigner oriented hospital and book a hotel room.  It's already easy.  The hospitals already offer a lot of different packages, related to bundling sets of services (eg. health checks, or longevity related treatments).  I guess marketing could relate to promoting these themes, and raising awareness about the special packages.

I've been on such group / bus tours in Japan and Korea, so the form is familiar to me.  You buy a trip as a package, including transportation (air travel), hotel stay, guide service, and even meal costs, which the tour provider arranges in advance using group rates, so that they can still turn a profit.  It's an inexpensive way to travel.  The trade-off, as a tourist, is all of your freedom.  You get on and off a bus and see the places on your itinerary, limited to the time they allot.  You eat what they plan for you to eat, and stay where they arrange for you to stay.  You need to wake up and sleep at pre-determined times.

The Chinese tour group form isn't really different than what I experienced, in mainly Thai groups (my wife had set that up, based out of Bangkok).  The food was often better than you might expect for such a format, since they arranged decent versions of local foods.  It's a mindless way to travel, getting on and off a bus, spending an hour here and there.  At least a guide drones on with a canned background speech.  I suppose I was listening to that in Thai fairly often, but that part wasn't so memorable that it sticks out.

Of course what Thailand wants instead are 5 star guests, staying in $200 or higher per night resorts (which would be $500 in Hawaii instead), spending money in higher end restaurants, and buying local goods as souvenirs, or just as normal expense on clothing and such.  We never travel like that, as a family.  We stay in moderately priced hotels, and eat in lower cost local restaurants, in Thailand and elsewhere.  And we've travelled a lot.  We've been to where we did those tours on our own as well, in Japan and Korea, and also visited China, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Singapore, and Malaysia, multiple times each.  We've only been to Australia and Russia once, and make it back to the US from time to time.

One problem is that they probably can't really dictate who visits through marketing.  It would be nice if that was possible.  Then you could show those 5 star resorts and better restaurants in ads, and people on that page would stream into your country.  Or eco-tourism / home stays might thrive.  There's actually some chance of that, since it's a completely different theme, not just a different spending level, which is what they're trying to adjust.  Unsuccessfully; the tourism authority in Thailand has been discussing this for well over a decade, and the local consensus take is that they're not making any difference.

Tourism does thrive in Thailand.  Visitor numbers go up and down, for reasons they can't control, but it all works out.  

Legalized weed (marijuana) has been an interesting running theme, for a few years, which of course "they" (the Thai government) would see as a negative input, related to visitor type selection.  They don't want more hostel based backpackers.  Of course nothing is ever that simple, since different types of people might smoke weed, and more tourism is better, while less is worse. 

It's not as if it seems that 4 and 5 star resorts are going out of business, while hostel businesses are on the rise.  It's instead that tracking estimates of visitor spending, however accurate those may be, identify trends that are seen as unfavorable.  This is the same theme that's happening in Hawaii, so let's consider that part.

Related to Hawaii

Here's an example of the kind of article reference I had mentioned, which mixes in a lot of anecdotal accounts along with limited stats.  They can track average room rates, but visitor spending isn't something that would be well documented.  Maybe surveys help with that?

I really don't follow any related stats, so I've only seen different articles making the same kind of claims, based on similar spending estimates.  It's hard to imagine total visitor spending going down, given that room rates only go up.  The average cited is something like $400 per night (or a bit over that, which sounds kind of high, but who knows).  Resort fees, parking, and taxes keep going up, so the costs would rise, even beyond the room rate inputs increasing.

For what it's worth this is Google's AI take:

Hawaii tourism is experiencing a notable downturn, with visitor arrivals and spending dropping in early 2026. March 2026 saw a 1.7% decrease in visitors compared to 2025, influenced by severe weather, while 2025 saw sustained declines from 2024 levels. Key causes include high travel costs, a slowing U.S. market, lingering effects from the 2023 Maui wildfires, and reduced international travel.

From what I recall, beyond that article as a reference, tourist spending is either flat or else in decline.  It would make more sense to me if that was trying to capture spending beyond room costs, and maybe that is it.  From there I can only describe what I see "on the ground," since we actually live at the one edge of Waikiki.

The streets never seem empty.  You can't judge occupancy percentages that way though; if 10 to 20% less people visited we might not notice that in sidewalk traffic or beach space use.

What about visitor norms, guessing about spending levels?  The hearsay I would pass on might be of limited value, but I can still attempt that.  There are higher and lower spending level tourists, for sure, beyond almost everyone facing high room rates.  We live beside the local equivalent of a hostel, which is always full (seemingly); I guess that would be one way to drop costs.  Then again whenever we visit the Hilton Hawaiian Village, a sprawling, multi-building complex at the relative opposite extreme, it always seems to be quite full as well.  Their restaurants seem to be at capacity, and that closest beach space is packed.

One might imagine that they can see shifts in visitor origins or types (back to the problematic economic class distinctions), but it probably doesn't work out that way.  Or extrapolate from online discussion points, but again that's a mixed sample, and probably a poor reference.  

I see discussions about Hawaii and Waikiki tourism in Facebook and Reddit, and per the usual divide that breaks into two groups.  One segment isn't concerned about daily spending, which is going to be quite high, on guided tours, and going to typical Waikiki restaurants, or luaus.  The other perspective relates to complaints over a local burger costing at least $20 (which is does).  More like $30, with any drink, tax, and tip, and in a beachfront hotel restaurant that might be $60, or more, with alcoholic drinks.  It would seem strange spending $100 on a burger and a couple of drinks.  If spending a couple of extra thousand dollars on food is an issue then Hawaii isn't the place to go.

I've not seen mention of Hawaii using marketing changes to address this.  It probably wouldn't work if they tried, and it would awkward to market that higher end experiences are available, if your spending is unlimited.

We can see some broad changes in visitor origins, even guessed at from who is on the sidewalks.  Japanese tourists declined over the past 20 years, along with the decline in their economy (or even over the last 4 years).  This is where I'd add who seems to have replaced them, which groups, but I don't think that anyone's personal observations would be well-grounded or authoritative.  Even what I've just said might be questionable; maybe there are as many Japanese guests as ever.  I'm judging from people "looking Japanese."  

We sometimes take a free local shuttle, free if you have a JCB credit card, and of course almost everyone else on those are Japanese (JCB is the Japanese credit card version).  That kind of filtering makes the "general look" test unreliable, that where you happen to go changes everything.  

My own take

I don't think any tourist destinations can adjust who will visit.  Malaysia seemed to expand their tourism sector through extensive advertising, so I guess that could work (🎵 Malaysia, truly Asia🎵).

Beyond advertising there may be limited ways that these destinations could self-promote.  One example here in Waikiki has been a series of outdoor movies, shown on a main beach, for free (Sunset at the Beach).  This has been sponsored by Southwest Airlines, and I think not by local tourism agencies or government, but it's an example of something low-cost that could add appeal, especially with commercial partnership involved.  

Of course there is already plenty to do in Hawaii, lots of existing draw, but adding to that couldn't hurt.  Beyond there being more reason to visit it would seem more like visitors are appreciated, which is nice, and it can put a positive spin on local tourism support.  A collaborative arrangement for a fireworks display in Waikiki on Fridays is another example (that they're already doing); it just adds that little extra touch, to help make the thousands that tourists spent seem like a better value.

In Thailand all they would really need to do it promote local festivals that are already going on.  Those are typically framed as something locals mostly participate in, but foreigners are welcome at them, and there's nothing stopping them from framing them as a tourism draw.  

To me those are an exceptional and unique experience, and you can barely find out they're going on, on any sites or event calendars, so you really need to run across them by chance.  I suppose it's a concern that there is essentially no cost to attend those; people tend to buy food, but even those options are inexpensive, so it runs against the theme they are trying to promote, higher spending.

not exactly what I meant, but this light and sound show in Si Thep (historical area) was nice

still not what I meant, but the Bangkok Chinatown goes all-out for different themed festivals

I'd meant like a huge Red Cross event, but this small Squid Game themed festival works

this street art festival was nice, in an old part of Bangkok

that Red Cross event, which is massive, but that doesn't come across in this photo

Or I guess both places could promote marijuana tourism, since it's already happening, without them being involved?  I get it why both wouldn't want that to expand as a main part of the local image.  But they wouldn't have to spend a lot on ads referencing people getting high.  Holding a couple of related themed, medium scale events a year could explode awareness.  Local authorities wouldn't even need to hold those, they could just allow them, and businesses that are already related would take it from there.

But then both places need to sort out where it is that people are supposed to be getting high.  It's everywhere, in Honolulu, just walking down the street, but if people really are allowed to smoke on the beach or in parks they could mention that (or if they're not instead).  Or keeping it all in the grey area may make the most sense, what they already do.

In Thailand I think they have it narrowed down to people being allowed to smoke marijuana almost nowhere, only in shops that allow on-site consumption, which isn't how that usually goes (per online discussion; I've never been in such places there).  You can't smoke on the street, or generally even on an open hotel balcony.  Only partly a joke, old themes about illegal smoking are sometimes referenced online, about smoking and blowing it into a paper towel tube filled with fabric softener sheets.  Why make it both legal and also illegal?

  

In Hawaii the main problem seems to be out of control inflation, and I don't think that's under anyone's control.  They could address spiraling hotel costs by allowing Air BNB rentals (now disallowed in some zones), but with residential housing costs also spiraling that's very problematic.  Residential and retail rents seem to drive a lot of this cost increase, and there's no way to reverse that, or offset further increase.  Value will continue to be an issue, and hotels will need to trade off discounting to support high residency levels, as demand fluctuates.

Christmas in Waikiki

I usually write about reverse culture shock themes, or running, when I'm back here in Hawaii.  We moved here 3 1/2 years ago, mostly so our kids could experience the US education system, and Keoni is half a school year away from graduating high school.  Kalani has experienced middle school for the first time this year, a big change from earlier elementary / grade school experience.  This won't mostly be about them; they would just as soon stay anonymous online, so even mentioning them breaks form.

Christmas has been nice.  I guess I've not experienced a Christmas here in nearly 20 years, back when Eye and I went to grad school in the University of Hawaii (at Manoa), where we met.  It would've been 19 years ago now.

It never feels completely like Christmas in the tropics, related to the winter expectation, but that's familiar in Bangkok.  There mostly malls and hotels decorate, and office buildings put up some token lights and a tree.  You don't hear the Christmas carols there, but that music does play around here, in Honolulu stores.  They put up lights as a city display, in two different places; that was nice.

I could add, about the kids, that we are terrible at observing holiday traditions in both cultures, but did ok for pulling together some token gifts this year.  Kalani's favorite gift was something she said that she wanted, seeing it in passing, an inexpensive karaoke system.  It's tiny, so small the speaker and microphone would fit in a woman's purse, but the function is decent.  It can play music through a bluetooth connection; the technology is mature enough now.  And it was so inexpensive; people buy coffee drinks for almost as much.

Keo's favorite gift was probably an above average quality headphones set, and he also got a Lego car set, both things he had mentioned wanting.  They were surprised; we usually drop the ball.  We didn't do much else for observance, walking around Waikiki some that day, but it was nice, spending time with family, even cooking basic meals.

Maybe adjusting to local culture, or the US version, went better this time, since I was last here 3 months ago.  For whatever reason I don't need any adjustment time back in Bangkok, in Thailand, but here it feels a little strange for the first week or two.  

Of course we are living in a tourist resort as a main residence area (for us), so that part is unusual.  I did that back in Colorado for a decade or so, in a different life phase, in a ski resort, in the Vail Valley.  It didn't seem so unusual then.  Lots of vacationers were visiting, but then it takes a lot of locals to support that particular industry.  Here resident locals might seem a little less integrated, since there isn't an isolated resort community; Waikiki is within a city of half a million or so people.

One part I always struggle to place is the emphasis on consumption, in local culture, to the extent it makes sense to call it that.  On vacations that seems relatively transparent, that of course you go there to eat special meals, to participate in special events or activities, and it all keeps costing money.  As a local there's a lot you just aren't doing.  Of course I don't miss whale-watching outings or luaus, but everywhere you go everything you see is oriented towards a tourist spending money.  

Even with the ocean right there, which you can experience for free, people rent or buy beach chairs or snorkels, or hire guides to take them places they probably could go, like to go snorkeling.  At least the tourists do visit the beach.  Surfing they couldn't do on their own; plenty take lessons for that.

Tourists don't always do much with the beach theme though.  A chance earlier life-phase contact visited in the Spring and her family seemed to barely see the beach, for doing guided outings to different places.  It seemed odd.  Seeing Pearl Harbor makes sense, or a waterfall somewhere, but the Polynesian Cultural Center doesn't really accurately represent Polynesian culture.  It's ran by Mormons, so it's like a Disney version of cultural summary.  

My Thai family loves that place, so it's not all bad.  Fire dances and whatever else are fine; there would be some historical basis for all of it, even though it also surely includes plenty of interpretation.  Any cultural summary would be like that, so I don't intend that as a unique form of blame.  It would be touchy summarizing "white American" culture, since half of what I valued in the late-middle of the 20th century might seem politically incorrect now, things like Thanksgiving, or pledging allegiance, that form of indoctrination.

This branches a little further into my own musing, not about local experience, but lots of this consumption-oriented tourism ends up dividing people into economic categories, more than they really need to be.  It's not about a intentional, central guiding "them" causing that, it evolves organically.  If you can spend $400 to 500 on a hotel that's who you will be surrounded by, and if you need to seek out "budget" alternatives it's a different class group.  Activities, and all sorts of other offerings, will naturally divide out from there.

At least people can still dress casually regardless of what context they end up within, and nature is still available to everyone.  Not a very natural version of it though; it is an intentional limitation, that tourists are steered to stay within either Waikiki or other appropriate areas.  In online discussion groups it's taboo to mention anywhere else.  I remember someone mentioning my favorite local beach, which isn't too far out of the way, and someone commented that they don't even tell their local Honolulu family members about that, never mind tourists in a broad Facebook group.  There are many more isolated places locals would never mention.  Not that it matters so much; going where lots of other people go instead is comfortable, and easy.

This reminds me of a discussion about tourists being airlifted from a popular local hike, which is definitely no secret, the Koko Head Crater hike.  It's essentially a set of stairs up an old rail line.  We've went up it twice, and to me once was already enough, given that context and theme.  If you get injured along the way it would be problematic getting yourself back down.  Of course locals were blaming people for not knowing their limits, which seems a little unfair to me.  How could someone know how they would react to hiking up over a mile of stairs, at a conventional steep incline?

It's a different story not knowing your limits about swimming in an ocean current, even within 100 meters of the shore.  Once you panic everything changes, and your danger level doesn't match what you might normally expect.  Once Eye and I were caught in a fast current just off a beach in Kauai, and she panicked, and even though she's normally a very strong swimmer it was all she could do to stay afloat.  The irony is that she can't sink in the ocean; salt-water makes you more buoyant, and when we would see sea turtles she couldn't swim down to get a closer look.  So out we went.  

A surfer girl was passing, and read the situation, and put Eye on her board, and she and I pushed her straight back in through that current.  Ordinarily the worst case is that you go out 100 to 200 meters and swim back in (a different way), but right there who knows.  We were at the "corner" of that island, and maybe we really would've been caught in a broader current, and headed out to Australia.

Enough of that tangent.  Tourists are safe and sound in crowded Waikiki beaches, in luaus, and overpriced happy-hour beach bars.  They sometimes feel an inclination to get out and see "the real Hawaii" but that's always a little contradictory, a tourist wanting to go somewhere tourists never go.

in a Waikiki McDonald's; a nice touch, the decoration

Homelessness and drug use

It can be hard to avoid touching on these darker themes when discussing US culture, but instead of adding more general perspective here I wanted to share a couple of unusual related experiences.

Of course I see mentally ill and drug-affected homeless people in Honolulu on a daily basis; it's almost not that big of a deal.  Until you are out late somewhere you shouldn't be, and then it is.  But we recently passed through one part of Chinatown, a sort of rough part of downtown, at mid-day, and saw two sets of people using drugs.  I see people smoke weed about a dozen times a day, but this was something else.  Two guys had a blowtorch and glass pipe of some kind; I guess that's crack?  Right in a crowded plaza space too; kind of strange.  It was a full-sized construction use blowtorch, along with elaborate glassware, straight out of a chemistry set; surely they could've used a smaller and functionally equivalent set-up.

We walked on to a bus stop where a guy was selling some sort of drugs, and one guy smoked some right there.  Off foil; I'm not sure what that means.  It was really something, seeing people walk up to buy drugs, and one guy smoking some.  He didn't react to doing the drugs all that much; that part was a little anti-climactic.  It all seemed normal enough to them, as if that bus stop was just their space for that kind of thing.  I guess it had good customer foot traffic?

It changes things a little seeing it, versus just knowing that's a part of where you live, and what those people are doing.  I don't mean "those people" in some sort of generalizing, negative sense; homeless people would surely all have different stories they're living out.  But at least a half dozen people are living that life, based on what we saw with our own eyes over the course of a half an hour or so.

Honolulu wouldn't be ok with tourists seeing that; it would get cleaned up in Waikiki.  Which reminds me; they had an extensive "spread Aloha" neighborhood watch sort of program before, maybe even back in the spring, and that's not going on now.  Maybe it's cyclic?  There are a few places that homeless people set up camp within 3 blocks or so of our house, with mats and bedding and such.  We don't live far from the zoo, for people familiar with this area.  I don't mean the sizeable encampment area by Paki park, or the outposts by the library, or the edge of the golf course, all within a 5 minute walk of the places I am talking about.  Over in Dillingham road there are whole homeless encampment villages.

Where am I going with all of this?  Nowhere, I guess.  It's a real issue.  That's not news to anyone living in any US city.

We always had a few homeless people around, 20 years ago, when I went to grad school here, maybe a half dozen or dozen you'd always see in Waikiki.  And many in other parts of the island.  But the numbers are different now.  I'm not the right person to shed light on what it means, the causes, or how to resolve it.  Of course I feel worse for those people than I do for myself for experiencing it, for being caused to see them.  

Having my kids be around relatively unstable people is a third thing; I also get it why people see it as a real issue beyond the aesthetic part.  In general not much violent crime is adjoined with homeless issues, but some it.  I've always discussed most themes with my kids, so talking about what drugs are and how they destroy lives is normal ground for us.  People smoke weed every 100 or so meters in Waikiki, so you get limited exposure to that other part of it everywhere else.

I should close on a happier note.  I met with online tea friends here this stay; that was a highlight of the trip.  They were here for the Honolulu Marathon.  I run, but I've never ran in an organized race, at least not since my teens, when I did run cross country and local 10ks.  I've been off running for half this stay, due to a minor tendon tear, and have been happy to get back to my normal route over the past week or so.  It's a fantastic place to run here, around Diamondhead.  It's a great environment for lots of reasons, and purposes.  The positives vastly outweigh the negatives.  I've been swimming even more, seeing sea turtles regularly, on a 200 meter route out in a lane from a local beach.

in Foster botanical garden, in Chinatown

with pineapple ice cream, sort of

gardening; we have two small boxes at Kalani's former school

One of the first photos from this visit, of Christmas decorations at home, from Kalani, our resident artist.  She made them for everyone, listing their favorite color, cat, and food, and Christmas wishes.

each cat's favorite cat was themselves.  I'm not so sure about that.