2009 Yiwu Zheng and Bulangshan Qiaomu from Moychay

Yiwu left, Bulang right, in all photos

 

A bit random, I picked out some extra aged sheng sample versions I had from Moychay from quite awhile back to try and review.  They had passed on quite a few teas, in part related to helping out with some text review, and I reviewed a lot of them, but still have others on hand (many thanks to them!).  Oddly there are some really, really old teas in that set I just never got to.  Whenever I'm sitting down for a relaxing weekend tea and writing session I never feel like this is the perfect time to review something from the 70s, but I should go there at some point.  One is aged green tea, something I've always been curious about.

I had picked these expecting them to work as a contrast more than a comparison, since of course to the extent broad areas have regional characters Yiwu is known for producing sweeter, aromatic, and approachable sheng, low on bitterness, and Bulang sometimes more intense versions, although in some cases this isn't necessarily along the line of challenging astringency that requires a lot of aging.  But then generalizing by area has never been one of my things, because way too many factors tend to combine for that to be as meaningful as it's often presented to beginners.  Or maybe it's just that I don't have the memory or appropriate structured exploration approach to keep track?

This may make for an interesting read, an older TeaDB blog post reviewing a lot of Bulang versions.  They were about a year into blogging back then, in 2014, so it was commentary based on relatively little prior exposure, but it still might be interesting.  Their blogging history is six months ahead of my own starting point, both in 2013.  I suppose that input is all the more relevant because James was writing about teas from this time-frame then, since both these versions are from 2009.

The theme of these being relative opposites did work out, as described.  That's a far different experience than comparison reviewing two very similar teas, which enables zeroing in on minor character and aspect differences at much higher resolution, but it's still fine to note and pass on broad strokes.

Review:

Bulang (left) is a little darker; the Yiwu from the cake "beeng hole" could slow transition a little

2009 Yiwu Zheng:  interesting; I suppose both will be for two different reasons.  One issue that I've had with some Yiwu that I've tried in the past (not that it works to generalize across a broad region across many other inputs) was that intensity had dropped out with significant aging, leaving behind a rich experience with good depth but little flavor compared to where other aged sheng stands.  To an extent that's the case for this; it has positive warmer tones, and lighter wood or spice / vegetal range, but flavor is subtle, not so intense.  Compared to a less flavorful silver needle version that's not true at all, and the opposite experience of greater depth (feel range, complex warmer tones, some degree of aftertaste) makes it not come across as wispy, it's just not intense, as sheng pu'er across most of the standard range typically is.  

I'll do more with a flavor and other aspect list next time; that one observation works for a start.  It's positive, what I do experience, and it might improve considerably over a few rounds, so this is offered as an initial impression, not a developed or final judgement.  There's a trace of an aged book or furniture note in this that might be really nice, if the other aspects balance in a certain way.

2009 Bulangshan Qiaomu:  much more intense, of course.  Bitterness hasn't dropped out of this version, but lots of other rich, warm tones support that.  I suppose for this version I'll be saying that it would be better to try it in another five years instead, that it's just not at the most favorable part of the aging cycle, given where it started.  I don't need to project back to a likely starting point to try to determine that; I mean that based on what I'm experiencing now it seems to exhibit a lot of potential for further positive change.  Again I'll end up leaving these initial comments as more of a first impression than a developed description of the experience.  

To add a little to that part though a touch of mushroom comes across in this, which I would expect to fade to include more warm tones and different sharper / rougher range.  Warm mineral, along the lines of iron rust, stands out a lot; I would expect that to soften and transition to a sweeter, more approachable depth as well.  There's a hint of dried fruit tone in this; maybe that will develop.  Or maybe not a hint, a substantial input instead, but the other intense range makes it harder to appreciate as a main aspect.  

Aftertaste really lingers, but at this point it's mostly a sort of rust mineral range that's as negative as positive, so it's hard to appreciate that as a positive input.  I'll need to be careful about infusion time for this version; the other would be fine brewed for awhile, at high intensity, but this will be optimum in a much lighter range.  From wetted leaf appearance I'm brewing more of this version than the other, but the first was comprised of larger chunks, so I expect that it will expand a good bit, while this was all loose initially (the sample included a chunk and loose material, and I brewed the loose part).  It's probably more broken material as a result, which is bumping that astringency level, the way compounds extract much differently from broken material compared to whole leaves.

no need to mention that I don't believe in filtering

Yiwu Zheng, second infusion:  it's improving fast; this is sweeter, richer, warmer, and cleaner than the first infusion.  That happens; lots of sheng range cleans up or loosens up over the first two infusions.  Depth in this is nice, the way it's not intense in flavor but there's a lot going on at that one level, a lot of rich fullness, in feel and taste.  It's smooth, with no unpleasant inclusions, and essentially no bitterness, or at least very little.  For flavor range there is a cured (dried) hardwood range that stands out most, but then also a nice aged book sort of flavor, and some spice range that's hard to break apart as distinct descriptions.  It could be interpreted as vegetal too; it includes a warm richness that is present in roasted dried seaweed, just not the umami blast that shows up in Japanese green teas, the other part of that flavor experience.  

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with someone interpreting a main aspect as floral, it's just not the association I tend to make.  The way chrysanthemum adds a warm, rich, neutral flavor tone is very present in this.  I suppose I like it more for liking chrysanthemum, now that I think of that.  It's nice, and different.  I own a Yiwu sheng in this age range (a 2008) that's not so different, half of a brick I bought some years back, but this retains more intensity than that, with a bit more flavor complexity.  It works better for that.  I reviewed that tea in this 2019 post, but I've tried that in the past couple of months, checking out what it's like that much later on.  Odd in looking up that link I referred to a TeaDB post describing them trying a lot of Yiwu; what are the odds.

Bulangshan Qiaomu:  better; cleaner and sweeter.  This will also really hit its stride next round, I think.  Bitterness has scaled back already, and some of the richer complex flavors stand out a lot more.  The rust oriented warm tones are cleaning up to a nicer mineral range, with more spice and dried fruit showing through.  This will probably be even better after a half dozen infusions, the kind of sheng version that really shines in the second half of the rounds.  I'll need to eat a snack, walk around, and wait for awhile to get to that, for brewing way too much of these teas to gulp through in ten fast rounds of tasting.  I should've considered that; back to making the same mistake I did countless times when tasting such teas over past years, brewing two full gaiwans worth of sheng at the same time.

Astringency, bitterness, and a set of warm flavors seem to really link as a set.  In one sense it's quite clean; storage input or other material flaws don't seem to stand out.  In another, related to both flavor and feel, it's not in a very approachable place just now; I get a sense this kind of tea could be just great in another half dozen years, once transition goes just a little further.  If I owned a cake of this I'd be in no hurry to drink it, maybe trying a little every other year to see how it changes, not so much to experience that, just out of curiosity about how that works.  It's funny how I think the other version is only going to lose intensity from here, that it can pick up some warmer tones, but it's essentially where it will be, and as good as it will be.  Just guesses, of course.

Yiwu, third infusion:  brewed liquid color has evened out a bit; strange.  Both are on the reddish and dark side, as one might expect from 14 year old sheng.  Warm spice tones pick up, from the earlier set.  Woody or vegetal tone drops off, and the lighter chrysanthemum range warms.  Sweet rich tones are a little towards toffee, just somewhere in the middle instead.  Astringency can keep fading from a slight dryness to a smoother tone as this ages, but it's not at all challenging or unpleasant.

Bulang:  changes are positive; again this probably will be even nicer in late rounds.  The more challenging feel--a touch of dryness--and bitterness input, and rust mineral range, keeps scaling back, as richer, sweeter spice tones pick up.  This develops some of the aged furniture character that older sheng tends to pick up, which I guess relates to aromatic oils and fragrant warm wood tones.  Even in 3 or 4 more years I think this would be much nicer, but a half dozen should start in on whatever it's optimum will be, and it might be quite pleasant at 30 years old.

I might guess about storage conditions inputs, but that's hard to do without really knowing starting points.  14 years is plenty of time to know if storage is too wet; less pleasant heavier aspects will enter in, mustiness and such.  And to know if dry storage is suppressing a conventional transition pattern; teas stored like that change slowly, but bitterness will fade, and a slight sourness might develop.  Warm tones might seem to almost never enter in. 

Yiwu, fifth infusion (I skipped notes on the last round):  intensity isn't dropping out; it stays similar to how it was before, even though I'm trying a round brewed quite fast, under 10 seconds.  Again green wood flavor is as pronounced as anything else, which could be interpreted in all sorts of ways, as vegetal, as neutral tone spice, or flower input, etc.  It's fine; I can appreciate sheng in this character range.  I wouldn't want to drink it too often, and wouldn't spend too much on it, but it's nice.

Bulangshan:  this is the nicest this has been, quite a number of infusions in, and brewed very light.  The more challenging dry feel and edgy mineral tone have eased up, allowing as much of a balance of warmer mineral, towards-spice, and hinting at dried fruit range show through.  It's complex enough that no one part stands out, beyond that feel and mineral range a bit like rust, again softer in this round-transitioned and light brewed version.  

I tend to drink Xiaguan tuo versions that are not even close to ready sometimes, when I feel like it, checking out what middle of the process transition character is like, so this is far from the most challenging range I experience on a fairly regular basis.  It's also not what most people would probably prefer, really needing to keep going to get to more positive aged range.  At least it's quite clean in effect, beyond that one feel edge being a bit much, so the potential for positive development is quite good.  Again not in 3 or 4 years to finish mellowing out though; this could use another decade.  

I drank a benchmark cake type Xiaguan with breakfast today, the day after writing these notes when I edited this, a 2006 8653, which I guess this comment reminded me of trying.  There's an odd saddle-leather sort of flavor input in some Xiaguan, pronounced in that version, that I like, but that makes it impossible to compare this tea to.  For being a few years older and stored in Bangkok that tea is getting pretty close to where it should be for aging transition, with this 2009 version not all that close yet.

I doubt that it's going to shed much more light on these but I'll take notes on one more longer infusion, around 20 seconds instead, and move on to a more general assessment, of how good I think these are, how they both match my preference, and related to further aging potential.

Yiwu, #6:  that one edge of aged books / furniture is much stronger brewed longer; interesting.  I suppose that someone could appreciate that aspect on its own, or others might even dislike it.  Some green wood tone joins that, in a sense opposing it, since those aren't a natural pairing.  Other warm tones fill in depth, chrysanthemum tisane range, so overall complexity is fine, it's pleasant.  This would be nice in years to come, but it will just become more subtle, and the "greener" aspects will fade as much as they'll transition, I expect.  Within a half dozen years there won't be much flavor to appreciate, and warmth and depth will stand more alone.  I don't mind that, but it's not the most interesting final result.

Bulang:  this is the most pleasant this has been, and probably a series of minor positive changes are only going to start now, so the main review of what this tea has to offer is only beginning, right where I'm ending it.  The early faint mushroom is noticeable again brewed stronger, but there is plenty of clean aspect flavor range to go along with that now, towards dried fruit, or in a warm mineral range, not exactly onto seeming "inky," but towards that.  One part of the warmer mineral range almost matches how roasted Wuyi Yancha oolongs turn out, with underlying warm tones linking with a more forward range of higher end roast related input.  Bitterness is still present, but it balances with those other flavors and feel range better.  The dry feel is also still notable, a main part of the experience, but it has softened too, allowing flavor to stand out more as an input, even though the two are different parts of the same overall experience.  It's not bad.  It shows as much potential as it includes positive experience at this point, but it's still fine.

Conclusions:

Both of these seem relatively positive to me, like decent examples of those styles and fermentation levels.  Moychay aged sheng varies a lot, with some more inclusive of flaws and limitations, which is generally matched with inexpensive sales pricing.  Then some they seem to regard better, described in more positive terms, but I suppose perhaps more importantly selling for much less.  These may not be highest-tier, most positively regarded selections but both seem ok, pretty good.  

If it's not already explicit enough from those comments I tend to see sheng versions as interesting and positive, or not, based on their character, but tend to not try to situate them on a quality level or trueness to type scale.  Versions just vary too much for that to work well, across too many levels of aspects.  For some other tea types, for different types of black teas or oolongs, for example, it is much easier to zero in on a conventional form versions match or else don't, and to isolate aspects that work as quality level markers.  Let's go with an example, to describe what I mean.  

Dian Hong is a favorite black tea range, Yunnan black, which varies a lot in character (opposing what I'm setting out to express), but I like versions for being rich with good depth, complex in flavor range, and also simple and approachable in a different sense.  Positive flavor aspects, and flavor complexity and intensity, mark those as interesting and positive, with feel also factoring in, and to a lesser extent aftertaste (/ finish).  A half dozen flavors tend to come up more than others (roasted yam and sweet potato, cacao / chocolate, warm spice that's not necessarily often cinnamon but in that general direction), and sweetness level tends to be good, so it's down to a flavor set, intensity and complexity, and lack of flaws.  Here I've been describing a much broader flavor range, emphasizing feel a lot more (mouthfeel, although others do focus on effect, body feel), and stress aging transition as a main concern and input, with some of those aspects potentially regarded as either positive or negative depending on preference.  If you love Dian Hong those tend to be limited in appeal, good, or really good; it's not that complicated.  For other tea types specific flavor range or feel might serve as a "quality marker."

For the Yiwu limitations related to aging potential seem to stand out, how one type of initial character tends to evolve.  I've not said it but I take it as implied that I mean that sheng that starts sweeter, brighter, more aromatic, less bitter, less astringent, and more approachable as brand-new or 3 to 4 year old aged versions tend to fade later versus experiencing a lot of change-over.  It's hard to place why this went so far into green wood and even vegetal character (for me, at least), but limited bitterness and softer, richer feel indicate it's pretty far along towards initial levels of those changing over.  Then warmer tones didn't develop so much yet, and to some extent I think that they never will.  This will soften, deepen in character to a very limited extent, and will fade in intensity; there just isn't much left to indicate it can change to another form.  Which is fine if someone happens to love this character.  I can appreciate it, but I think I would like where the Bulang version ends up in another decade a lot more, or even 3 or 4 years, stored here in Bangkok.

The Bulang version is harder to appreciate as it stands now, with a dry feel and rust mineral flavor not an optimum experience.  In a sense it's still clean though.  It's possible that the rust mineral tone I'm discussing relates to what I've described earlier as sourness being caused by too dry storage conditions.  I'm not completely certain of that though; this tea is really in between well-preserved and an average level of transition for that 14 years of time, not at the one extreme.  At a guess it's an effect of this being in an odd place in transition form, changing from one thing to another, but not there yet.

I'm not the best person to guess if that one aspect range, the set, really, indicates good or poor further transition potential, or some particular initial character limitation, or a particular storage input.  Part of this character is so positive that I'd expect this has generally good aging potential, but a rough edge of a different form might seem slightly more positive, for example a harsh and rough feel versus this degree of dryness.  Maybe I never did make what I meant by that clear enough; it's feel that isn't unlike that from unripe fruit.  Still, in 5 or 10 years this will be quite different, and the potential seems generally good, if perhaps not optimum.  

It's interesting considering how this matches or is different from the 2006-7 range Xiaguan, Zhongcha, and Dayi versions I have, how those are perhaps slightly further along in transition, but were edgy as could be 2 to 3 years ago, not necessarily dry in feel but plenty rough, rougher than this is now.  [It's that comment that triggered me re-trying a 2006 Xiaguan cake version].  Anything I'm saying about guesses for how this will change over 5 to 10 more years are just that though, guesses, not really informed projections.

It will be interesting trying to look up website descriptions and placing these against what they say.  That could be very limited though, since Moychay descriptions don't generally aim to tell a full story for you like that, about how they place that against other range, or how they see aging potential playing out, or maybe even a full snapshot of current aspect experience.  They fill in some about what the teas are, and you need to take it from there.  It's interesting catching their site comments (usually automatically translated versions, since it's a Russian vendor, so people comment in Russian), where tea drinkers with very different experience levels and preferences try to fill in the rest.  Let's check that.

Moychay site information

Main Russian site, listing this 345 gram cake for $108:  

The bouquet of the ready-made tea is mature, woody-and-fruity with balsamic, autumnal, herbaceous, mushroom and nutty notes. The aroma is deep and warm, fruity-balsamic. The taste is dense, smooth and juicy-tart, sweetish, with fruity sourness, spicy nuances and a refreshing finish.

credit the Moychay site, of course

Some of it matches, but it's not generally helpful, since that conflicts with my impression as much as it matches it.

That lists for $136 on their Amsterdam site, which could seem unfair, for costing that much more, but if you add import shipping expense and some tax to that the increase may not include much profit, especially beyond allowance for extra handling and maintaining another storage facility.  They mention the producer, Yiwu Mengsong Chaye Zhanqiexian Gongsi Factory, which for most people would enable looking up background and comparable options more than it would ring a bell.  The description is essentially the same in both websites.

It's interesting considering flavor profile described in the first main site comment:

Tea with two characters.  Make the water hotter, the exposure longer - woody.  Cooled water, shorter strait - fruity...

Dried fruits, prunes, dried apricots in aroma.  Chill in the aftertaste, pleasant menthol...  The first infusions are quite dense, in the aroma of boards and fruits, depending on how long you brew... In later straits, apples and pieces of wood taste.

I don't know about all that.  Beyond the wood tones there is some fruit to experience, but it's more woody.  I suppose I could try to brew this at 80 C and see if it really does change everything.  Nope; I just did pour the water into the cup first to absorb out heat, then used that for brewing, and it's a little softer but not so different in flavor profile, as they describe.

Other reviews there mentioned lots of dried fruit and menthol.  I don't know; I don't see it.  More comments are from 2021 than present, and it would've been slightly different then, but all that dried fruit wouldn't have dropped out in two years of further aging.  Early floral tones can transition kind of fast, but that's something else, more pronounced over the first 3 years of aging, not from year 11 to 13.  If you read about dried fruit in a description it's easy to look for it, and then find it, even though in a blind tasting it might come across as a secondary input, or not something that you notice at all.  Let's check out the other one.

This main site listing is archived, so it has probably sold out.  There's no way to know what it listed for, the pricing, because that's not shown on an archive page, and there is no Wayback machine archive of this page.  Their description:

Sheng Puer from Menghai Juming Chachang Factory...

The bouquet of the ready-made tea is mature, woody-balsamic, with notes of oak moss, spicy herbs, autumn leaves and dried fruits. The aroma is deep and warm, complex, fruity-balsamic. The taste is full-bodied and mellow, tart, sweetish, with a slight bitterness, citrus sourness, nuances of spices and lemon-mint finish.

nice looking leaves

Again that doesn't match what I'm experiencing, but then interpretations do always vary.

Review comments are all over the place for this; there are no consistent consensus opinions to pass on.  I would think for this seeming to be listed in 2021 (when the comments occur) people would be mentioning aging potential versus what it's like now, and a couple comments do bring that up.  It would seem strange to me to drink straight through this as an 11 year old tea, back then.  Even now I might not check it again until 2024 if I owned a cake, maybe twice next year, then see how it is again in 2025.

Scanning comments some strange input comes up.  In regards to aroma someone mentions that "it's already close to shu pu'er," (really?!), then also claims that it tastes like dried fruit and grapefruit.  Here's an example I agree with more:

Liked it! Mint sheng) Minty-menthol flavors are often accompanied by a noticeable bitterness, and this one is very mild, slightly astringent, like a wild pear. And it seems that it can still be stored and it will only get better, although now the taste is already well balanced.

The potential and atypical feel stand out in my own notes, if not the mint and menthol reference.  Trying it again that kind of works, but that could be true of all sorts of descriptions.  One comment mentions that the pricing is moderate, which for Moychay aged versions might mean they had been listing it as a 11 year old version for under $100, or maybe around that.  It does need another 5 years to settle even now, two years later, but it should be pretty good in 2026, depending on how that dry feel issue settles out.

The nicest part is that Moychay sells these as samples, or intermediate amounts, so someone could try lots of different versions and see what they like, as with Yunnan Sourcing.  It wouldn't work well for someone outside of Russia, just now, but eventually that war will end, and their Amsterdam outlet is already available to anyone.  For that $136 Yiwu cake (on the Amsterdam outlet) a 25 gram sample sells for $9.50 (8.75 Euro; what's up with their exchange rate bottoming out like that?), so trying a good bit of it isn't so expensive.  At 40 cents a gram that's costly compared to young sheng whole-cake rates, but samples always work out like that, you pay more for opportunity to buy a little of a cake to try.

As to match to personal preference for both I appreciate a really broad range of types of sheng so both are ok for me.  The Yiwu I see as more ready now, with the Bulang version better set aside for some years.  I'm really into younger sheng these days, liking either nearly new more approachable versions, or how some that doesn't need 15 years of age works out after just 3 or 4 years.  I've been cycling back through all of what I own over the last few months, after being separated from my teas for two months at one point, so aged range is as familiar as ever, but I really like younger versions as much or more.  Not typical tuocha form teas, I don't mean, which really need a decade to settle, the other styles instead.

That shouldn't mean anything in particular to anyone; everyone is on whatever page they are, and that can change.  Most of this post covers that a main appeal of older sheng is that the transition patterns are interesting, an extra level to appreciate experientially, and to place within interpretation, and to try to match to preference.

Hate watching television shows

 

This is not a new theme, but it has definitely taken on new forms and entered a new dimension over the past two years or so.  People watch television content that they hate, in order to appreciate the experience of not liking it.  So strange!

The latest example that really clarifies this is Velma, a new interpretation of the Scooby Doo story line.  In the past a repeating theme of very liberal oriented content drawing attention from more mainstream and conservative viewers defined this general trend, but this is something else.  This show was seemingly created so that both liberals and conservatives, and most in between, would be offended by it, or would dislike aspects, and that "buzz" of how terrible it is would drive viewership.  And it works; this show has the lowest critic and viewer ratings of almost anything ever created, and pretty much every popular culture commentary oriented channel on Youtube is talking about it, resulting in terrible ratings, but probably in good viewership.  So strange!

Let's back up and consider that earlier "woke" content form and see how it maps onto Velma, and how it doesn't.  The last part is simple enough; they literally, explicitly, and openly criticize "woke" or relatively extreme progressive left wing perspective.  They go further though, rejecting favorite topics like marijuana use, and extending gender-swapping of characters to a point that even relatively extreme liberals might be put off by.  So back to what "woke" content is:

race or gender swapped characters:  She Hulk changes over the Hulk to a female character version, as an example, a change that was initiated in a print comic form many years ago.  In the Velma series the protagonist, if the character is interpreted as that, is Indian, matching the creator and voice actor's origin / race, and Shaggy, another main character, now referred to as his earlier given name, Norville, is black (instead of white).  This general practice irritates conservatives, or even some mainstream centrist viewers, but in this case it's seemingly used to make fun of the practice, a "meta" sort of critique of what it's actually doing, which may or may not work.  One character is Asian but red haired and doesn't look Asian; that's also hard to place.

sexualization of cartoon minors in Velma is probably in poor taste (source)

negative portrayal of white males:  in this Velma cartoon it goes so far as to make the only main white male character be described as having a small penis, over and over, and to be unintelligent, and narrow in perspective.  It's not so much more extreme than in other Marvel series content, but a little.

emphasis on characterizations versus stories:  this is a main criticism that is applied, that these changes, taken alone, aren't so negative (relatively speaking), but instead of supporting new stories and new character development they're used to replace conventional story telling aspects:  building up an internal conflict, developing that through plot points, leading to character arcs and resolution events.  

Does a writer or producer need to utilize these forms though, for example, the "hero's journey" story and character arcs?  Maybe not, but a new form of story telling would typically involve some sort of replacement form, not just these cultural characterizations, with dialog mapped onto them that supports these basic themes (women are more self-aware and powerful than men, etc.).  An interesting brand-new story form might work, not involving that or other older standard elements and forms, with the standard criticism being applied that the creators of left-oriented content aren't really even attempting that.  The forms and messages replace telling stories, and developing complex, relatable characters.

it makes you wonder what half the critics are appreciating

reliance on prior forms / characters:  why not make up such a story line without involving Scooby Doo, or the Hulk, and so on?  In a sense She Hulk has sidestepped this concern, because She Hulk was a prior text / comic form.  Marvel re-created Hulk as an attractive female version to draw on prior awareness and connection, and the same occurs over and over with these other video forms.  It builds in an audience interest, drawing on earlier IP; you can't blame creators or show producers and backers for that.

meta / third wall commentary:  the Velma show is said to rely on this to an absurd form (I've not watched the actual show, to be clear), and She Hulk also did, drawing on a prior physical comic convention for that character.  This isn't automatically rejected or embraced as a left or right related theme; how it is used determines acceptance or rejection.

I've watched shows that I have very mixed feelings about myself, in order to see just how bad they'll get, or how they'll apply these themes in those story contexts.  There's something inherently interesting and appealing about it.  I suppose examples in my own case relate almost entirely to Disney + content, since we subscribe to that streaming service, and they produce Marvel and other content that relates.  To me She Hulk, Ms. Marvel, the last Hawkeye series, and to a lesser extent Willow all represent this form.  Rings of Power, the Tolkien world content, may be the clearest example; I haven't watched that either, but according to a lot of commentary they've dropped the emphasis on existing in the same fictional world to promote these progressive character elements and themes.  Velma could be a next iteration form, not just "woke," but intentionally bad, designed to offend a broad range of viewers.

One sub-theme that doesn't draw much attention is how this has not only helped with show promotion, in some instances, but that a broad range of Youtube commentary channels are drawing much broader audiences from this trend, and therefore benefitting from it.  I suppose the Critical Drinker channel represents as good an example as any; any given critique of anything I've mentioned, and any Terminator or Star Wars movie or tv show, is essentially the same as every other video he produces.  And his following has ballooned as a result, up from hundreds of thousands of followers not that long ago, or maybe under 100k on a two year time-frame, to well over a million.  

source

Dozens of main commentator channels rush to cash in on this theme, to increase their following, and probably thousands of smaller channels and producers make the same attempt, just less successfully.  It's a gold rush for content producers, along with being form of media expression of a social movement.

This is an interesting example, Why Has Hate Watching Become A Sport? - Chris Gore.  He never really does address that question, instead explaining that he personally watches content he doesn't like because he's a film or media content reviewer, and needs to in order to comment on it.  That's not addressing the main point:  why is his own content much more popular now, when it touches on this criticism, versus when he is making any other point?  Why do audiences watch content they don't like?

He's a real film enthusiast reference, seemingly a veteran media reviewer, to be clear, not the same type of reference as many others.  To me the Filmento channel is similar in this regard, a previously existing review / commentary channel that existed prior to this trend, basing content on a broader theme.  Still, both "cash in" on the popularity of this sub-theme of the current US culture war.  Essentially every related content creator says the same thing:  I watch this bad content so you don't have to.  But that's just a catchy idea that they feel compelled to repeat, and people watch these shows, seemingly to see how bad they are.

I've still not really explained the appeal of that myself, have I?  I watched the first couple of episodes of Ms. Marvel and realized that it was just awful, but why did I continue watching that?  And She Hulk.  It has been compared to watching a car accident, how there is some strange appeal to observing what is objectively unpleasant, but still interesting, maybe all the more for that awfulness.

There was always a novelty involved too.  The form is now becoming familiar, those components that I described, the "progressive" themes development, but prior to two years ago they weren't really uniformly developed, so every example of all that could be a bit different from the last, a new interpretation of it.  Going just one step further could appeal to someone appreciating the representation, eg. of gender neutral status, but also anyone not connected to that theme could appreciate how it was handled, maybe even especially if it was handled badly, in a form that rejects current norms and intentionally offends a broad range of viewers.  This is where Velma lands; it can be funny or interesting to see the creators reject the most mainstream accepted ideas possible, eg. rejecting normalcy of marijuana use, or even acceptance.

  

Moving forward from there, could racism ever be used in such a way; is there any practical limit, in expressing ideas society universally rejects to draw attention?  That really remains to be seen.  In the current liberal Hollywood sub-culture climate maybe not, but others outside that scope might use radically unpopular themes as an inroad, at some point.  In the past a commentary "comedy" show Politically Incorrect used a fairly mainstream rejection of some static earlier norms as a main theme, but then when Bill Maher eventually did express something truly politically incorrect, that maybe the 9/11 terrorists should be admired for being willing to die in support of their views, he was cancelled, completely.  With content now being independently produced options may be more open.

It makes me think about what examples of the worst, poorest taste, most unacceptable content possible have been in the past, which have gained popularity.  "Bum Fights" comes to mind; there is little more horrible than exploiting the poor and mentally ill for financial gain, using them committing acts of violence against each other as a basis for content.  Legal action would be used to shut anything like that down now.  Slap fighting might be about as distasteful as anything related to actual sports go.  This was kind of funny, recently, but only in a very twisted sense:

In that "sport" people hit each other with no chance of protecting themselves, and whoever can damage the other more, or take more damage, wins in the end.  It's not really ok.

I see all this as an extension of the culture war in the US, one outcome of it.  Media sources have long since used negativity as click-bait, encouraging people to read or watch the latest terrible thing the "other side" did or said.  It was probably only a matter of time until media followed suit, building on dislike as a main appeal, on to the extent that hating the viewed content itself could become a goal.

Is this a problem?  Negativity extending this far could be, if only indirectly.  I've mentioned here before how it's odd that many Reddit groups that had been fan oriented can shift over time to center on hate for the very producer or media figure that they were created to support, as in the case of the Joe Rogan sub.  One might think it's a non-issue if some thousands of people decide to discuss their dislike of a former favorite star, but that sub has 800k followers, seemingly representing a mainstream accepted theme at this point.  It's not so different than 1.5 million tuning in to hear the exact same complaints about media content, that they already know has the same undesirable characteristics as the last half dozen similar shows or movies.  Probably a substantial part of Joe Rogan's audience tunes in to experience dislike of his stated opinions--crazy.  For half of the US that's what the Trump theme was about, following political events to become outraged, not just daily but more frequently than that.

Does this represent cultural decay of some type?  Maybe.  We can't know if this is a universal pattern, if during the long fall of Rome something similar came up, just in real life, but I suppose it doesn't matter.  Either way a "garbage in--garbage out" pattern must apply to people consuming a lot of content in order to hate it, that it can't be a positive life experience input, just as reading comment sections and repeating "you people are all idiots" wouldn't be healthy.  I'm reminded of the critique of internet culture in the observation that people with all the world's knowledge at their fingertips instead use their smart phones to look at pictures of cats and argue with strangers.  Or now on to watch shows that they hate, to enjoy hating them.

2013 Wawee Thai sheng, 2015 Vietnamese sheng from the Hien Minh shop

 

both seem to include bud content (Thai tea left)

A friend not so recently passed on a few Russian and Thai teas to try, and I lost track of this version, a 2013 Wawee (Thai village area) sheng.  It's probably the most interesting version of that set too, since it will be nice to experience how storage and time changed it.  I've been meaning to retry a Vietnamese sheng version I bought some of as maocha some years back, from the Hien Minh shop in Hanoi, Vietnam, so comparison will make sense, seeing how both held up at the same time.

I don't want to go too far with backstory or speculation here; this is mostly just going to be about these tea experiences.  Storage conditions differences will throw off making any direct comparison, and I don't know how these were stored, beyond holding onto one myself for some years (the past 4).  The Vietnamese version is maocha, not pressed, and that may help even out the two year age difference, since it should age slightly faster that way, but again who knows.

I'm curious to see how these relate to discussion and my own observations about whether or not some other Thai and Vietnamese sheng versions were made in styles that are well suited for aging (positive fermentation transition).  I don't want to get to far into all that either though.  Some versions I've tried from across South East Asia have seemed a bit more oxidized early on, and a limited amount of bitterness and astringency could've indicated processing wasn't a complete match for the most typical Yunnan range.

I had thought that the Pho Nhi Song reference on the label must have referred to an area, but in writing about that four years ago I described it as Tay Con Linh area tea from Ha Giang (I think), based on reviewing documented product details then.  Let's take a look:

Of course that listing, description, and price are all very out of date now; that probably wasn't current when I bought the tea back in 2019.  It's odd that it was quite bitter earlier on; even in 2019 in my notes I didn't see much about that.  And hard to place that it seemed "grassy;" often that would relate to a green tea edge, tied to a sheng being heated a bit much during processing.  If it instead means that it had a more hay-like neutral and warm tone that's something else.

Some people might be offended that the word pu'er (puerh) is used for Vietnamese tea, or more specifically any tea produced outside of Yunnan.  I see no problem with vendors making any particular naming convention judgement call related to that, skipping it to only call it sheng, settling on hei cha or dark tea, whatever they choose.  Anyone likely to drink sheng knows what they mean regardless of that choice, and I don't get upset about language convention choices, even when someone uses "literally" to add emphasis, but to mean figuratively.

the Vietnamese tea label, not matching that product summary naming

Review:

2013 Wawee Thai sheng:  I let this version brew a little longer, towards 20 seconds instead of around 10 for the other, to adjust for it needing more time to decompress.

Bitterness is still a main aspect, even though the tea is still a bit subtle, surely due to not being completely wetted yet.  The rest is nice, and the overall balance, the other warm earthier tones, a warm mineral range and some aromatic wood towards spice and dried fruit.  It'll all be a lot more pronounced the next round, I would imagine, once intensity from being wet will pick up, so I'll leave it at that.  It tastes good; quality seems fine, per an initial impression.

2015 Pho Nhi Song Vietnamese sheng (I'm not sure what that label heading meant; I suppose it's at least possible that I'm mixing up two versions, but I don't think so):  this is much more unusual.  Bitterness level will seemingly be much lower, but it includes other interesting flavor range that stands out, a hint of dried mushroom, and a sweetness tied to something along the lines of dried fruit.  Ordinarily I don't love dried mushroom flavor in tea but I bet that will fade pretty fast, as other flavors enter in.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't there earlier, it wasn't mentioned in my earlier review of this.  There is good other flavor complexity, a sweet, warm spice range that's not unlike that in the other tea.  I think both will be nice, but it will be interesting comparing a sheng version with pronounced bitterness with one that has lost it through transition changes.

I should mention that I stored something like a remaining 50 grams worth, partly to see how it might change, and just to have a chance to try it later.  That's not really ideal; storing more together would be better.  I don't think I tried this during the covid era, so that sealed bag probably hasn't been opened in three years, although maybe I did, since I wouldn't necessarily remember.

Thai tea left, in all photos

2013 Thai sheng, second infusion:  bitterness isn't too strong in relation to the rest; it strikes a good balance.  A very pronounced perfumelike floral range entered in.  That's great in combination with the warm mineral tone already present, and the other warm aspect range, now settling into a mix of warm aromatic dark wood and incense.  There is plenty of intensity in this tea to keep age transitioning for as long as one would keep it around; it seemingly wouldn't ever go quiet, as some versions can.  Concern about it possibly being made in a style best drank within a few years of production is not an issue.  Intensity, positive aspect range, balance, and refinement are all good; this is really nice tea.  

For someone seeking a relatively age-transitioned version--for which drinking a 10 year old version wouldn't make sense--this would have a ways to go, probably not there in 5 more years.  I wonder how it was stored.  Hot and humid Thai conditions can tend to rush that process, and this is in a good place for that time-frame, seemingly not rushed by that input.  For storage in Bangkok I would expect some heavier flavor tones to have entered in, and maybe a trace of mustiness, but at least even heavier aspect range, and it would only be so much cooler and drier in the north of Thailand.  

Speaking of that we just visited the upper middle of Thailand, as far up as Phitsanulok, and it was down to 15 C there in the night (60 F), absolutely frigid for us, a great change of pace.  This cool season has been extra cool.

2015 Vietnamese sheng:  as with the other version this really shines, based on showing more of it's true character in a second round.  Floral tone picked up for this too, and the mushroom edge backed way off, hardly identifiable, if at all.  Sweetness really stands out, in a warm and rich form.  For being like this it could appeal quite a bit to black tea drinkers; it's not exactly in the most conventional range for sheng, even though those vary an awful lot and then transition in many different ways.  I'm a sheng drinker, mostly, but I really like it.  It has great depth and intensity, and I don't necessarily miss bitterness being present.

To be clear it doesn't taste like a black tea; it's just mild, complex, rich, and sweet in a way that isn't so far removed from Yunnan style black teas.  For this being so approachable you could really push it, brew it stronger, and experience a range of different effects from it.  I probably wouldn't, except to see how that might go, but the potential is definitely there, since there is no need to "brew around" any input range as to pronounced at one strength.

Thai, #3:  it's interesting that this brews a little darker than the other; I suppose it's possible that a difference in storage forms made it ferment more, even beyond that extra 2 year input.  Or it could mostly be that?  

Bitterness is still pronounced, but it keeps integrating better, as other range picks up, now even with that input.  The strong floral tone is again pleasant, again supported nicely by other complex warm tones.  Feel seems richer, as a main change, and aftertaste experience lengthens.  Again this is pretty good tea (an individual and preference-oriented judgement; what do I know of the highest quality range of sheng versions?).

Vietnamese:  a spice incense aspect stands out most now; interesting.  Maybe along the lines of sandalwood?  I would need re-training, or at least more exposure, to be more familiar with that range again.  My hippie days were a long time ago, experimenting with incense exposure and all the rest.

It's going to sound like I think the other tea is a better match to conventional form, and better, more complex and better integrated, but this doesn't give up anything in terms of complexity or pleasantness of the experience.  There's a lot going on; layers of aspects, that are well-integrated.  And it's unique; this doesn't necessarily remind me of much other prior tea experience.  The Thai version may well be better suited for another decade of transition, since it is certainly more intense, but even then I don't think that it's necessarily right that one should drink this right away because it's only going to fade.  It's quite pleasant, and in a few more years it will be pleasant in a different way.  In 10 more it might be giving up too much related to limited intensity, or maybe not.  At a guess drinking this now, or within the next 5 or 6 years, makes the most sense, but that's just a guess.

But was it better 4 years ago, when I bought it?  I'd have to read an earlier review; I'm not sure.  Probably it was just different then, appealing in a different way.  As I remember it was quite nice then.

Thai, #4:  an interesting lemon citrus aspect picked up in this.  I've been critical of a broad pattern of tea reviewing where teas are described as completely different from round to round, usually experiencing changes as incremental myself, a shift in an aspect or two, or maybe a couple picking up while a couple taper off, but these teas are both changing a good bit each round.  

Bitterness keeps fading, dropping out gradually, and floral range is still pronounced, but the overall balance shifted quite a bit.  Warm tones still support the rest, but brighter range is more a factor now.  No need to keep saying that this is good, but it's good.  Feel changed a little too; it had been rich and velvety, and that's still there, but a touch more dryness entered in.  Varying infusion strengths, not being consistent about timing, is probably causing some of that.

Vietnamese:  that rich incense spice aspect is really nice.  If it was standing more alone, not as well integrated into other range it works well with, it would still be pleasant, but the overall effect is coming from that, the way it all ties together.  

I think I'm probably understating the degree to which bitterness and a feel structure characteristic of sheng is supporting that, since some similar range stands out more in the other version.  And I'm probably scaling back descriptions details some in relation to reviewing two teas together.  If I hadn't been doing that I surely would've focused in to explain more how other inputs are building up to these two different overall effects.  For example, there is some subtle input of dried fruit in this tea still, which I'm not really mentioning in descriptions, since I've been focusing on what stands out the most.  It's a lot to take in, and a lot to write, and experiencing the contrast, the differences, stands out as one more thing to contemplate and experience.  The warm mineral range is similar in both, which I've also just mentioned in passing.  

To add more description to that I think this tea tastes a good bit like dried Chinese date, jujube, a flavor experience that I really love, from being completely addicted to an ice, bean, and fruit Chinese desert version.  It's a little towards dried longan too, which is also in that desert.  I suppose that helps explain why I feel a connection with this tea experience, that it expresses a range that's a personal favorite.

Thai, #5:  pretty similar to the last round; the pace of transitions is leveling off.  Again I'm marveling at how pleasant this tea experience is, and how much further potential this aspect range seems to indicate.  The bitterness and bit of dryness wouldn't be for everyone, as it stands now, but for people accustomed to drinking younger sheng this is approachable and well-balanced.  It should only become more so, with plenty of complexity and intensity remaining, as that bitterness transitions to more fruit and warmer aspect range.

Vietnamese:  also pretty similar to the last round, not giving up much intensity yet, but it's possible that it is starting to fade just a little.  That warm dried fruit and spice range is just great.  Why would it be so pronounced, after just 8 years, when plenty of sheng versions are still settling out of rougher edge young character around that time, still bitter and astringent?  I can't rule out atypical processing as an input causing that, something along the lines of an extra bit of oxidation.  If it is that it didn't rob the tea of potential to be quite pleasant, complex, and interesting 8 years along in age.  It's possible the factor of maocha age transitioning (fermenting) a bit faster is part of it.

Thai version (left) slightly more broken; both vary in color some

Thai, #6:  similar, maybe giving up a little intensity, so that it's finally time to lengthen infusion time a bit.  I've been brewing these around 10 seconds, not so long, but that's plenty of time for gaiwans this full.  One difference that I didn't mention, which is evident in photos, is that the Thai tea is slightly more broken, while the Vietnamese version is completely whole leaf.  That will change the character, boosting compound extraction that is more astringent in this Thai version.  This balance of aspects works well though; it's pleasant.

Vietnamese:  warm spice, dried fruit, and floral tones make this still very pleasant, I suppose giving it an edge in pleasantness of experience at this round's stage over the other.  Both are good, this just works really well.  Earlier a heavier mouthfeel and extended aftertaste made the other Thai version seem higher in quality, but to me the overall effect those types of inputs develop is the thing, not enjoyment for the sake of any one aspect.  Stretching both of these using a 20+ second infusion could be interesting, and that would make for a good place to stop taking notes.  Of course the teas are far from finished, and an interesting late round transition could happen, but it's all a bit much to type or read.

Thai, #7:  better, a bit stronger again.  I think drinking sheng on the light side works slightly better, because intensity is usually fine with that moderated, but the way this hits is nice.  That one band of complex flavors in this is really pleasant.  The citrus I've described has warmed, now onto more of a blood orange range, and the warm tones aren't woody and spice oriented as much as towards dried tamarind range, which of course connects a little with rich and sweet orange.  Bitterness has finally eased to a secondary input, which is nice, although it wasn't unpleasant before, for someone acclimated to an even higher level.

Vietnamese:  I'm surprised that this maintains intensity and complexity as well as it does; it would've seemed more conventional for something expressing this range to narrow more, or even fade slightly.  It's not doing that.  Part of that warm rich tone range seems to edge towards maple syrup taste; that's different.  The feel isn't thinning, complexity isn't dropping off, and aftertaste experience isn't narrowing, although that was never as pronounced or extreme as it might've been.  It's good.  Again I think I like this experience slightly more than the other for this round, where the opposite may have been truer in the earlier rounds.  The other tea seems to have more aging potential, to me, but this could be really good after another 3 or 4 years to deepen in character.  Both are nice, nicer than I really expected, and I'm already a fan of this general range of tea types.

Conclusions:

I did go back and check the initial review of this Vietnamese version, in 2019.  It seems a bit patchy in terms of review form and detail level; I guess that settled to a more standard form here later on.  Given that status I can't say much about how it changed over the first 4 years in comparison with the second; it sounds different.  It would've been nice if that focused more on bitterness level, astringency, other mouthfeel concerns, specific mention of complexity and intensity, and a guess about aging potential, and likely early transition.  It sounded good then, and just different now.  Let's consider that earlier description, more about review form difference than it is informative:

On the third infusion the Ha Giang version really levels off to a very nice balance.  It's subtle, but there are interesting layers to the experience, and the aspects integrate well together.  I can see why I just didn't have luck putting a description into words; "floral, cedar, warm mineral" kind of catches it, in a sense, but at the same time completely misses it.  That warmth does extend a bit towards coming across as cocoa, and the sweetness does extend towards coming across as dried fruit.  It's the overall effect and balance that really works, but discussing mouth-feel and aftertaste is going to run into a parallel limitation.  It's quite pleasant but hard to describe why, in what ways.

My perspective, standard review form, and content scope have changed some since then.

I don't have more to say about the specific origin of this Thai version either.  Alex Phanganovich passed it on, and contacting him might work to check on if he has more, or even just to figure out what this is.  If it's from one of the main producers there could be another place to find it, but if he is trying to sell some I don't really want to oppose that by flagging a different source.  One of the better known Wawee producers uses that origin area name as their company name, but there are plenty of others, and the younger Thai sheng version he shared was from material from that area that was processed elsewhere.  Oddly in looking up that link that post identifies a second name for him; Alexey Zykov.

meeting Alex in 2020; Thailand had a nice long pandemic break in that year

I thought both teas were exceptional; surely that comes across in the post content.  Either would be great to have more of to check on further transition potential.  It's funny how for some more "factory style" oriented sheng even after 15 years it's normal to discuss how approachable they are, and how much further they should go to become more ideal, and this experience was the opposite.  They are "there" now, they probably will just keep changing in interesting ways, especially the Wawee / Thai version.

they grow up so fast

cuddling with cats has been a priority this break visit, before they go back to Hawaii for school