2007 8281 Yellow Label Mengku sheng pu'er, compared with 8891

it's like visiting an aunt and uncle there, even though I'm not that much younger

I'm reviewing a tea sample the owners of my favorite Bangkok Chinatown tea shop, Jip Eu, gave to me when I last visited them.  It's a little unconventional that we tried that tea there during that visit, so I'm writing about it again, based on a much closer form of review.  It was nice of them, to give me more to also try later, and perhaps wise of them to get that impression documented in a tea blog, just by handing over a sample.

It's a little odd, but my impression of it changed.  I was fasting that day (the first day of 5), and talking quite a bit instead of focusing in, so two things changed.  Three, really; I also brew tea for myself differently, because I based infusion timing each round on how I liked the last round.  My water source is probably also different (filtered local tap water, but the filtration must vary).

I don't have a listing or site description to provide, under the circumstances.  Jip Eu is on Facebook here, and they're on Shopee, for people online shopping within Thailand (maybe easier to find as "Three Shell Tea").  I looked up online listings, and two different vendors sell this for two completely different price points (the 2007 version, probably the same tea, although I guess this could be sold in different batch numbers, so maybe not identical).  Here is one of them, listed by Crafted Leaf Tea:

2007 Yellow label Raw Puerh - Iron Cake

Tea Bush : Grade 1 Mengku large-leaf tea bush species

Made from supreme old tree Mengku material, this is a high quality raw puerh from a village in the Brown Mount. region. After 13 years of aging this cake has enter its mature stage, most of the strong bitterness & fresh fruitiness of raw puerh has turn into a mature taste crafted by time.  Comparing with our 2003 Premium Yiwu Private Collection Raw Puerh - Chimney. It features less smokiness but with a very well balance of sweetness of ripe puerh and pinewood & mineral bitterness, followed by a lingering light caramel aftertaste. The aroma lingers wonderfully in the throat. After about seven or eight steeps, the taste becomes more tender and mild, and starts to show a light, mellow fruity fragrance.

So they're saying that it's a Mengku, Lincang region tea.  Google's AI input and another listing agree this was made by the Kunming Tea Factory for CNNP release (Zhong Cha).

This second "Dragon Tea House" listing sells this cake for $40, while the other vendor, Crafted Leaf Tea, sells 50 grams for $22.  What should we make of that?  I'll spare you the idle speculation, beyond this summary.  Maybe one isn't "real," maybe one is overpriced, maybe there are other factors.  $40 for a 19 year old standard producer tea does seem low.  This was selling for closer to that than whatever $22 for 50 grams works out to (nearly 50 cents a gram?  come on.).

This other 19 year old CNNP cake is pressed as a 500 gram version, now listing for $104 through Yunnan Sourcing, where I bought it awhile back.  I first reviewed that in 2019 here, seven years ago, and don't seem to have any newer comparison use review to check in on.  People who have been following Yunnan Sourcing for a long time, and drink sheng pu'er, probably have already bought this cake; somehow it became the standard entry point item to try out way earlier on. 

Reviewing tea labels:  this could be a step too far, but in looking at the three labels of the three teas presented as generally the same they don't match.  The Dragon Leaf version has a different bottom producer identifier name, and the yellow mark in the center is slightly offset (although the Crafted Leaf page includes pictures of both types of differently marked labels; strange).  Make of it what you will; it's not intended as evidence of any indirect claim.  Per the owners of this shop they bought a good bit of this tea back in 2007 from a producer outlet when it came out, which on the face of it sounds reliable.  Who knows though.

the Jip Eu cake label

Crafted Leaf Tea version

Dragon Tea House version (note the "product of") section

Review:

8281 left (my cats just broke one of the plainer cups I use most often; not helpful)

8281 Kunming / CNNP 2007:  it's interesting that this is much darker initially, both the leaves and the infusion.  They're both 2007 versions, but the other spent half its time in Kunming, in relatively dry and cool storage, and this tea version came to Bangkok back when it was produced, bought by the shop owners back then.  It has been stored hot and humid.

Flavors are heavy, of course.  It's relatively clean though.  Beyond the heavy mineral base a pine note stands out, and some medicinal herb tone.  Feel has a nice thickness already, and it has only been one short infusion, after a short rinse.  There may be brighter and sweeter spice that will evolve, or maybe even a touch of dried fruit, but I think this will be easier to read next round.

8891:  it is lighter in flavor range, but this has transitioned pretty far along already.  It's not how I remember it.  There could be a faint hint of smoke-like flavor, but beyond the slightly lighter mineral it tastes something like aged bamboo might.  It's not exactly woody, but pretty close to that.  Sweetness is decent; it gives it balance.  There's just a hint of sourness at the finish, which doesn't ruin the effect for me, but I suppose it's not mostly positive.  Going back and tasting the other after this, the same first round, a bit more root spice stands out in that in contrast, towards root beer, or sassafras.  

I'm not sure why but I'm feeling these teas after the first round.  I took a week of drinking a lot less during a 5 day fast, and never really increased back to my earlier level in the week after, so my caffeine tolerance may be low.

the leaf and liquid color difference is noticeable

8281 #2:  these brewed for about 15 seconds, or maybe slightly over, which is a fairly long infusion for a high proportion and strong teas like these.

It's interesting how heavy and strong this flavor profile is, with it being clean at the same time.  This might turn into pretty good tea with another half a dozen years to finish the full fermentation transition process, which is really far along now, maybe equivalent to over 30 years in cooler and drier storage.

Heavy flavors could either be seen as a selling point or a negative, depending on preference.  Quite heavy mineral tone stands out.  It's strong enough that you need to "taste past it" to identify the rest.  One part of the remaining flavor is like a cured tree bark tone (so woody in a completely different sense than the other tea).  Spice range is still present; it links with that, or overlaps, some range of root spice.  Less of the more forward, bright, dry pine note is present, but it's still there, just in a different balance.  Other complexity probably still does relate to medicinal herb range, ginseng and such, but it's all hard to place, integrating with or being overshadowed by the rest.

8891:  complexity is good in this; there's a good bit going on (which is all relative, of course).  And the tone is lighter, which works well.  That hint of sourness at the end is a little more pervasive now.  I don't necessarily see it as a flaw, but if it was swapped out for something else the tea could be much more exceptional.  It seems to connect with a dryness that you feel in the center of your tongue as you drink it, and more just after you swallow.  

I remember this as a heavier and rougher edged tea.  It has mellowed.  The heaviness of flavor tones fading could easily relate to my judgment changing, or my general perspective.  Tasting any tea in combination with another also shifts things; that becomes a fixed baseline, adding a bias for what is a heavy level of any one input, or placing different aspects differently in comparison.

At this point I like the 8281 better, but this early sourness and dryness may be something that evolves out of this version over a few infusions, so it seems too early for that kind of judgment.  I should mention here that some claim that dry storage is "bad" for a tea, not for just slowing down transition pace, but also for imparting a slight sour note to teas.  I never really knew if that holds up, oddly, even though I've tried a good bit of dry stored pu'er.  Storage that is too wet (humid) is said to impart either a mustiness or overly heavy tones to a tea, or maybe both.  Then people talking about relative optimums tends to make for a complicated subject.

8281 #3:  brewing this faster, at 10 seconds, and being a couple of infusions in really lets this tea shine.  The flavor aspects I've been talking about (pine, heavy mineral tones, limited root spice, other medicinal spice) haven't changed, but the balance does shift completely.  Feel is still good, and pleasant aftertaste carries over.  Sweetness level is nice.  It works.  Brewed a bit stronger it probably wouldn't; this tea is pretty intense.

8891:  this also balances the best it has yet.  The bamboo woodiness seems to evolve to more of a sandalwood spice.  That one light sour range aspect is fading, or maybe a lighter infusion makes it seem to drop, but it's still present.  Feel is better.  

It's interesting tasting these and "looking for" the standard descriptors people often apply.  Do they taste nothing like betel nut (which could only be a guess on my part, not having tried that), or camphor?  Maybe the first (8281) does taste like betel nut, and the second like camphor.  Probably that second attribution is more grounded; there is an edge to this tea that kind of matches that.  The first seems to emphasize that light spice range all the more in comparison.

8281 #4:  I'm getting rocked by these teas.  Colors and color definition seems more vivid; it's affecting my vision.  Why didn't I put less tea in these gaiwans?  It's like a mental block, as if I can't.

This tea is really catchy, the way that a root spice stands out, with so much more going on beyond that.  Sweetness picks up, so the rootbeer like tone leans a little towards a dried fruit note input, but it's still really a sweeter range of spice input.

If flavors were a little heavier it would be too much, but for me that part is fine.  It's really clean, supported by great sweetness, rich feel, good balance, and pleasant aftertaste.  Maybe it would've been even better if it had been stored in a slightly cooler and drier place, and aged for 30 years instead of 19.  A decade of extra wait is a significant trade-off; you can't just move yourself through time to experience that.

8891:  that early sourness is losing its place in this tea, for the best.  It lacks some of smoothness and root spice complexity of the other, but a different form of lighter sandalwood sort of range spice is nice in this.  A light camphor edge has seemed to replace the sourness, definitely an improvement.  It might be even better after 4 more rounds, but it would be pushing it to drink just one more.  Let's go there; let's push it.

8281, #5:  I'm giving these more like 20 seconds to see them from a different perspective.  Heavier tones pick back up again; it's interesting how infusion strength varies perceived character like that.  And it's also handy, to be able to shift what you experience so easily.  It was better a little lighter.  That heavy mineral starts to come across almost like a charred tone, where is was part of a less prominent background context, less strong than the root spice, last round.

It's still not bad, not flawed, or too far out of balance, but it's better brewed lighter.

8891:  this version balances just fine brewed a little stronger.  The sourness didn't return; that did evolve out over early infusions, as I guessed might happen.  It might be slightly better than last round for being a little stronger.  It balances well.  One might expect the camphor effect to pick up, brewed stronger, but it's kind of the same, the flavors are just a little more intense, and the feel.  The other is smoother and richer, with this retaining a little dryness, just not in the same form as over the first few rounds, not as pronounced.  

If you drink the other right after this, while the aftertaste is still present, the contrast in it tasting so much more like spice really stands out.  Tried the other way that dryness stands out most in this, tasted right after the other.  It's not all that challenging or negative when you just drink this 8891, but in comparison it's more negative.  

Conclusions:

I tried a couple more rounds later and there wasn't more story to tell based on that.  Of course they didn't fade out and die within the first seven infusions.

I suppose that I like the 8281 more.  Could it be because it's more fermented, further along in aging transition?  Hard to say; that's not impossible.  The 8891 is lighter, smoother, and more balanced than I remember.  I may not have tried this for years.

Both are pretty decent.  I don't think these are what the Teas We Like curator vendor are probably looking for as the absolute best examples of aged sheng potential, but they're decent, and solid.  It doesn't help that I very rarely drink 20 year old range tea at this point; I mostly drink young sheng, within 3 or 4 years of being produced.  It's completely different in character.  It's interesting completing a 1500 word tea review without mentioning bitterness, for example.

What was missing, if these were reasonably well balanced, with pleasant flavor range, and not really expressing clear flaws, but I'm judging them to be good but not great?  Complexity was decent, and balance ok, but they both could've had a little more to offer.  That root spice range in the 8281 could've been more pronounced and spanned more interesting scope.  The 8891 had issues with dryness and light sourness early on, and then later evolved to be more pleasant, but it still mostly covered spice that wasn't so far removed from wood.  I think both will probably be better as 25 year old teas, that having plenty of intensity at this age is a good sign, so both have room to change positively, if only a little.  This 8891 might be fully age-transitioned at 30 years old, as this is going.

I hadn't planned to buy a cake of this but now I might.  As I mentioned I tried it once before, visiting that Chinatown shop, during a fast, on the first of 5 days off eating.  I didn't like it as much as this time.  It helps slowing things down and spending time with a tea, and brewing according to your own preference.  It helps having eaten.  Your sense of taste changes a lot more after 3 or 4 days of fasting, and you can smell the neighbors cooking dinner really far away, but just skipping breakfast changes things, a little.

This tea--the 8281--might be even better with a few more years to complete a transition, or a half dozen.  The 8891 is also much better than it was something like a half dozen years ago when I tried it last (maybe 3 or 4?  I lose track).  These are definitely not fading to not include much flavor intensity.  

To me this range, standard CNNP character, is one of three good examples of favorable and distinctive factory tea production, along with Dayi and Xiaguan.  Maybe people would typically prefer one of those over the others?  I really do like best-case outcome Xiaguan versions.  Or even the barnyard character of well-transitioned more standard range.  Many of their teas come across as rough-edged and basic but that flavor range is interesting.

there is a second cat over on the other side of the fence

2006 China Tea (CNNP) 8001 sheng pu'er

This tea version goes back to when that new friend visited from Germany, Ralph.  He bought this China Tea Company / CNNP / Zhongcha 2006 8001 sheng pu'er tea cake at my favorite Chinatown shop, Jip Eu.  Not only did he say that he liked it but another friend visiting from Germany backed that up (if I know you a little and like you then to me you're my friend, as I use the concept, a bit loosely).  The curiosity got to me, and I also bought a cake.  This is the third version of a similar cake I'll have bought, with more on that in the following.

with Ralph and Jaba at that shop, and Kittichai, the owner

The research on what it is could have went better.  A few online sources mentioned the same version, but then you can find online references to tea cakes that are clearly not what they're labeled as, like that LBZ version I bought from a Chinatown shop here, or most of what's sold on Ebay.  That wasn't even supposed to be LBZ, given the pricing, just a random tea that happened to be mislabeled as that.  Next it becomes a concern not just if a cake is what labeling says that it is, but if that's even a reference to anything that it might actually be.  I'm not going to dwell on all that, but the number system story helps cover what I mean.

8001 refers to specific information, if it follows the convention, which not all cake numbers do.  The first two digits reference the year the tea recipe was developed, serving as a type number, the last a producer number, and the third a grading of leaves, more or less wholeness, but perhaps used in different ways.  So this was--if that holds--a type developed in 1980, from the "1" producer, Zhongcha, CNNP, or China Tea (one of the names of which dropped out at some point, no longer applying, if I'm partly remembering right), with a leaf grade of 0, the highest possible level.  Per input from that other friend, Jens, the third digit is also used to evaluate leaf quality in some instances, not just form / wholeness.  The date is something else; this has 2006 stamped on the label.

Sounds reasonable, right?  So why would I be uncertain that's it?  That probably is what this tea is, what it looks to be.  I just didn't turn up any familiar references, vendors like Yunnan Sourcing selling it, online discussion, and so on.  Dodgy looking Chinese vendors selling seemingly identical cakes isn't conclusive.  All the same the proof of the pudding is in the eating; it's real enough if it's pleasant to drink.  And this would be aiming a bit low for a tea to fake, since it wouldn't have been costly at all back when it was made, and it's not as if this shop just purchased it, so it can't well have been a very recent recreated version. 

There is a second concern, about image of this blog if I review or support a tea being something when in fact it's not that.  I'm not losing any sleep over that; as far as I know I don't have all that much public image to be worried about.  All this part is just framing what I'm thinking about the background.  Obviously I'm still exploring aged sheng, kind of just starting, even though there have been at least a couple of dozen reviews in that general range here.  It takes awhile to start on this particular subject.


I'm reviewing it alongside a 2007 red mark version from Yunnan Sourcing (reviewed here); that will help serve as a baseline.  I remember that tea being a bit rough-edged, extra earthy, but pleasant if someone was ok with that theme. 

This tasting was rushed , conducted in just over half an hour, limited in time due to a swim lesson occurring at 10 AM.  I had woke up early enough to use a full hour for it, about as long as note taking for a half dozen rounds would take, but used a significant amount of that time making French toast.  One has to keep priorities in order.  It wasn't mostly for me but the French toast was quite pleasant; we had it with ham, spiced with cinnamon, nutmeg, clove, and cardamom, so a slightly non-standard version.

More sort of related background:

I'll cite a lot of that Yunnan Sourcing description of that first tea I tried with it here, not all that directly relevant to this different version, but it will describe half of what I'm tasting, the benchmark version:

8891 Red Mark is one of two 8891's released in 2007 by the China Tea Co (aka Zhong Cha/CNNP)... 

...Most importantly this tea is incredibly good tasting and has a very unique flavor profile. It's been stored in Guangdong since 2007 in a dry-wet storage condition (wet stored but on the dry side of the wet storage spectrum). The raw material is from Nan Jian area of Yunnan which is technically part of Dali prefecture. I suspect the given the name "Da Li Cang Shan Xue Yin Yuan Cha" (Dali Town, Cang Mountain, Snow Mark Round Cake) and the font used that this was pressed for the CNNP company by the Nan Jian Tu Lin tea company. The material is fairly tippy, large leaf and obviously pure assamica. Not only that, but the raw material used is not from young plantation bushes as it's quite burly and large in scale.

Compression is medium, not too tight at all and the leaves easily separate in layers from the cake. The tea brews up an orange-red tea soup with a pungent aroma of flowers, mushrooms and earth. The taste is clean with no musty wet storage notes, but does have some some earthy notes. There is a kind of pronounced spice and cloves taste and aroma with a strong viscous sweetness throughout...

It's great that Scott tells you so much about what you are buying, beyond the tea just being what it's supposed to be. 

I really rush the flavor break-down here so I don't get far with interpreting the spice notes, or pinning down earthiness level or type, and skip over doing much with describing feel.  I reviewed that tea initially here, in April, and used it as a benchmark against a similarly aged tea brick I bought in a market in Shenzhen (China) in June, but I won't go too far with cross-comparing the different impressions.  I mention at the end it's not exactly as I remember it, even though I've tried it again a few times between June and now.  The purpose here is for comparison, more than for determining if it's transitioning.

I briefly mention how this compares with another CNNP / Zhong Cha / China Tea company version I've tried again in the last couple of weeks or so, another 2006 version I bought in Chinatown at Sen Xing Fa last year, reviewed here.  That review doesn't say how much I bought that for; if I'm remembering right a bit under 2000 baht / $60, but then that tea is slightly flawed related to storage mustiness (or so it seems to me).  It cleans up in character after the first 4 rounds or so but it's not really as pleasant as this tea through the first 5 rounds, based on these initial tasting notes and my memory of it.

I mentioned the apparently identical listings of it that turned up online weren't promising related to offering background or clear descriptions, but didn't add that Ralph also reviewed the tea in his tea blog (the Daily Tealegraph).  He also lists three Chinese vendor references relating to this tea; anyone interested in checking on that can click through to those.

Review:

2007 8891 left, 2006 8001 right

8891 left, 8001 right (in all following pictures)

2007 8891, red mark:  first infusion is too light to do much with, but it should start to tell something about storage conditions.  This tastes really clean, light in flavor, a sign it wasn't stored overly wet, or even moderately wet-stored, I'd imagine.  To some extent I'm speculating here, in claiming that storage flavor would stand out immediately, pushing past experience into the range of guessing a little.  Flavor that does come across is pleasant, towards tobacco (not matching everyone's preference, surely, but pleasant as aged sheng tasting like tobacco goes).  Within a round or two that will probably shift some.


2006 8001:  completely different; pronounced mushroom and mustiness comes across immediately.  That's not a terrible sign; per past experience that might well clean up a lot over the first two rounds.  Other flavor is along the lines of old barn smell, versus tobacco in the other.  Of course it's not nearly as clean in effect as the other version but to me this is still very promising.  It has intensity and depth, and with some degree of transition it could be quite nice.

Second infusion:

2007 8891:  much improved, probably not completely ramped up yet but getting there.  Sweetness increased, in a toffee-like range.  Tobacco gives way to other flavor complexity, warm mineral base, rich dark wood tone, hinting a little towards aromatic root spice.  It's nice, just a little light still.


2006 8001:  cleaning up but not there yet.  Mustiness fades; it's no longer in the range of mushroom (as much, at least) but there's definitely an aged character to it, like stored items in an old garage or barn.  It's still promising, a bit clean for being that musty, with a lot of depth and complexity.  I expect it will be a good bit cleaner next round, and then more where it's going to be the one after.

Third infusion:

2007 8891:  this could've been brewed slightly longer than the 8 or so seconds I gave it.  Flavor level is appropriate and pleasant but it would be fine a little stronger.  Earthy range is evolving, but since time is tight I won't put effort into unpacking that.  It's clean enough, and pleasant.


2006 8001:  this version is around optimum for intensity level, brewing slightly faster, or else just more intense flavored tea.  It has cleaned up a lot; probably one more round to go for that process to complete, but the character balance is fine now.  If I had an extra half hour for this review (taking notes) it would be interesting to do a more detailed comparison of flavor, adding more about feel differences and aftertaste, but I'm running out of time, off to that swimming class.  Mustiness is still on an even level with the other flavors, even though I could enjoy it like this; we'll see if that keeps tipping next round.  I'll give these over 10 seconds to try them a little stronger.

Fourth infusion:

2007 8891:  more of the same, clean and pleasant, more into light toffee and root spice range now.  Earthiness is present but not necessarily woody or like tobacco, just adding some depth, along with warm mineral.  I think this might have improved since I've first tried it, cleaned up a bit. 


2006 8001:  much better; this did just tip over to tasting less musty and more into warm mineral, earth, and spice range.  It's similar to that other CNNP / China Tea / Zhong cha sheng cake I bought--at least that seems to be that--that needs 3 or 4 infusions to really settle off that initial musty range, but then brews another 10 or so positive infusions.  We'll see about that part, in the case of this version.  Complexity is quite good; that might include a bit of dried fruit, along the line of date, or maybe jujube, Chinese date.

Fifth infusion:

2007 8891:  nice, just a bit light as flavors go.  It's positive, what is there, and feel has a bit of thickness to it, but it's subdued.  Warm earth and mineral give it great complexity, it's more the front end that's a bit light.  It's not how I remember this; I thought it was earthier [and in going back to glance through a first review that description seems to say that].


2006 8001:  this tastes a bit like jujube, dried Chinese date.  It might keep evolving; that main flavor might be a phase it's going through.  Warm mineral is strong beyond that.

Conclusions:

It's more or less what I'd hoped it would be.  I often end up saying an aged sheng version will probably be great when it just has a few more years to finish aging, and this is ready now.  The first two infusions are slightly musty, and that's still evident in the third, but beyond that the taste is relatively clean, balanced, and quite complex. 

It's comparable to the other CNNP version in character, seemingly just relatively different, probably partly tied to storage background.  It seems more fermented, further along in aging, but at the same time a bit more intense than the 8891, just not as clean in aspect range.  But then that other version did seem to improve related to earthiness mellowing out, and maybe some mustiness could fade from this.

It's interesting comparing this to Ralph's impression, from his blog review (an excerpt):


Out comes a dark orange liquid, which reminds of leather, honey, sweet-sour exotic stone fruits, sugary notes, a warm and comfortable tobacco aroma (not to be confused with a colder smokey flavor which I personally dislike) and a typical aged sourbittersweet aroma.

The brewed leaves have a leathery brown color, you can really see the 13 year dry warehouse aging process as this is a very post fermented tea already.

The brew is strong and thick, the steeping times can be kept short for 7-10 seconds. The aroma is wonderful, the honey sweetness in this one is outstanding and it should be a perfect product for further aging...


It seemed fine to me, a lot like that.  Where I left off the notes it was closer to a dried Chinese date than stone fruit but that flavor range was transitioning a good bit per round.  The tobacco distinction he makes is nice; there is a dry, light, flintier range smoke aspect common in some sheng that I also don't care for (although some people do), and this did include a warmer, sweeter, closer to pipe tobacco earthiness instead of that.

I tried both teas another half dozen rounds after the swim class.  The 8891 was still positive but fading, and this 8001 version picked up more mushroom again, maybe somehow related to lengthening infusion times a little, which can shift character, emphasizing some aspects over others.  It was really positive except for that one flavor aspect (dried wild mushroom, to be more precise, close enough to shitake).  The sweetness, depth of flavors, supporting mineral balance and light earth tones, complex fruit range, thickness of feel--all that was fine.  I don't necessarily expect that mushroom is going to drop out over aging for any reason, but I suppose stranger things have happened.


I hadn't mentioned cost, did I?  It sold for 2000 baht, $60, for a 400 gram cake.  I just checked the Yunnan Sourcing 2007 8891 (which I bought about 6 months ago) and it lists for $67 for a 500 gram cake; not so different.  Character is quite different, probably related to aging conditions as much as to the teas not being the same thing.  The leaves in this 8001 version are much more whole than the 8891, although it seems odd that both would be at the far ends of that scale (the 0 and 9, the third digits), odd related to appearance in both cases.

It raised the question, which do I like better?  They're kind of just different.  Not in completely different ballparks for character, but not really similar.  For being more intense and complex this 8001 is better, even though I didn't love that one mushroom aspect.  For being more subtle, a bit cleaner, and not including any rougher earthy aspects in the first three rounds, or towards the end, the 8891 is better.  Feel was fine for both, maybe with the 8891 thinning more later on.  It would really require a slower, more complete tasting session through a dozen rounds to pin down more differences.  I think the other Zhong cha / CNNP cake I'd mentioned might have been more positive in later rounds than both, maybe with this 8001 only clearly the best of the three for 2 or 3 infusions in the middle.

It will be interesting to see what I make of it over more tastings.  And nice to have over a kilogram of similar teas to mess around with, drink over a long time, check on aging transitions, and give away samples of.  It's nice having aged sheng that works as a daily drinker, as something to have 10 quick infusions of with a breakfast, stacking (mixing) some rounds during brewing to speed that along, without worrying about fully appreciating the nuances of the tea.  Shu works for that too, for rushing brewing as an easy to drink tea, but it's nice having a range of types on hand, to pick whichever sounds best that morning.

with her best friend at the swimming class (from that set of kids)

adding some silliness to a warm-up  walk

2006 Zhong Cha sheng compared with 2007 Changtai Nannuo

There is some back-story to this tea, just not the kind that clearly describes what it is.  I was in the local Bangkok Chinatown a few weeks ago to when Anna of Kinnari Tea was visiting, and stopped through the local market Yaowarat Soi 6 area and to a tea shop I'm familiar with, Sen Xing Fa, to pick up a spare gaiwan to give away.  I'd bought a couple versions of shou mei there before, and a Tae Tea / Dayi 7542 that was on the younger side (3 or 4 years old then), and at one point bought an inexpensive, sort of no-name aged sheng cake.

That last wasn't an incredible tea, just decent, a bit heavy on tobacco and woody flavors, and a little thin in feel, but it was nice for having a moderate priced sheng around to share versions of.  I think I still have some but I've split most of it between giving it away and trying some from time to time.  It's not for people already exposed to aged sheng, to appreciate how good that version is, instead just to work as an example of the general range.  Aged sheng is much different in character than all other types of tea, even shou, and although drinking a so-so version only gets some of the general effect across a lot of the novelty still gets conveyed.  You can definitely tell that it's not black tea, or shou. 

That shop had what seemed to be a knock-off 10 year old 7542 there that might've been perfect for filling the same role; certainly not as good as the real version would've been, but if in the same ballpark worth drinking and interesting for trying something new.  I just didn't have time to try it, and didn't want to gamble on a tea I might not want to drink or give away.

that same guy from last year, at the Sen Xing Fa shop

I finally made it back there in the last week.  I tried that tea with the guy working there (who's name escapes me), a family member of the shop owners.  He admitted that it wasn't a genuine tea version (it was selling for $20-some, and a related version I looked up online was going for around $70-some).  Which leads to a tangent:  the actual right market-rate cost of that tea would depend on which lot number it is, what harvest batch it is.  A discussion comment on Steepster just explained that system:


The other number to notice, at least with Dayi cakes, is the 3-digit number that indicates when in the season the cake was produced. It has the form xnn, where x is the last digit of the year, and nn is a sequence number starting with 01. ...the first pressing of 2018 would have been numbered 7542-801.

Generally the x01 pressings command a price premium, as the first and likely best picking of the season.


It doesn't matter what that other tea claimed to be, and since this tea isn't a Dayi (Tae Tea) product that I'm reviewing it probably doesn't have a similar number to be concerned with.  To make a long story short I tried another tea with that staff, which he claimed was better, and it was a lot more substantial, not nearly as thin as the 7542 knock-off.  It turns out it was labeled as from the Zhong Cha company, which doesn't mean much to me, but does turn up as a known producer.  Whether or not it really is that or not who knows (or where the tea was grown, etc.); I bought it based on it seeming reasonable after trying a few rounds of it.  Really this tasting session will inform what it's actually like more, since I didn't have a lot of time to focus there, or to adjust infusion parameters myself to what I liked best.  Just rushing through tasting alone throws off how much you pick up.

I'll taste it along with a Changtai version sample a friend passed on, a 2007 Nannuo tea (at least presented as such; these teas do tend to get counterfeited).  I liked that tea, although it didn't seem that much better than the tobacco intensive version I've already mentioned, maybe more pleasant in flavor but a relatively subtle tea version (thin, to put it less kindly).

I'm "brewing around" only having two thirds of what I'd normally brew for that Changtai version, so I'll need to go slightly longer on infusions to keep this even, throwing off a completely consistent comparison tasting but it's not really a problem.  That tea was there to remind me of a range of what I'd tried in the past, and to serve as a marker for potential of sorts, not exactly as a benchmark to be achieved.

Review

just getting started (Changtai left; there's less of it)

2007 Changtai Hu Chen Nan Nuo:  somehow the baseline idea seems to work better trying this tea version first in each round.  It's interesting, not bad.  Seemingly it clearly is aged sheng; kind of my impression from before.  The flavor is a little towards tobacco, but more aged leather, hinting towards aromatic dark wood or spice.  That works.  It'll probably pick up a bit more complexity across rounds and be quite nice.  Trying it again maybe pipe tobacco works as a description, a more aromatic version in the same range.

2006 Zhong Cha:  it's more complex than the other version but the flavor range isn't quite as positive.  I'm not alarmed yet; a couple infusions will show where it's going.  It has a lot more depth, more mineral, more in the range of corroded iron versus woody earthiness.  A touch of mushroom or musty aged wood pulls that in a direction that could be more positive; that's what I'm talking about probably evolving to be more positive.  The overall intensity is completely different.  The other tea wasn't really noticeably thin in effect, feel, and aftertaste (and just getting started) but compared to this version it kind of was.

Going back and trying both before moving on to the next infusion I appreciate the sweetness in the Changtai version, and how clean those flavors are for being in that earthy range.  I'd not notice the lack of intensity or missing aftertaste as much in that tea without trying it with the other.  The Zhong Cha version isn't exactly musty, as I normally use that term, but some flavor transition will either make it positive or else it will be quite limited.  The staff at that shop mentioned it does transition positively, but I didn't have the time to spare to get through that much of a full round.

Second infusion

2006 Changtai:  again the flavor is nice for this tea, shifted a bit into an incense spice and old furniture range a little.  I'm using a slightly longer infusion time given the proportion difference but it never will be possible to compensate for that, but that's not really the point anyway.  Feel is a bit thin, and the aftertaste doesn't disappear immediately but it's not pronounced either.  As aspects go this is flavor intensive, which works for me, but missing a full feel aspect does lighten the overall experience a little.  The flavor is interesting to me but I don't immediately completely connect with that range (pipe tobacco, warm mineral, dark wood, incense spice, and old furniture).  It would be nice for drinking something different from time to time but I don't know that I'd want to experience it too often.

2007 Zhong Cha:  at least it did transition, and in the right direction, but the mushroom or tree fungus part of the flavor is still clearing out.  Mineral in the form of rusted iron is quite strong in this; again that's not awful but not something I'd want to spend a lot of time experiencing.  It's almost hard to place what the extra levels of depth of intensity, mouth-feel, and aftertaste mean to me.  I've never completely moved on from appreciating teas mostly due to taste but at the same time the overall experience has a character shaped by multiple factors.  There's too much corroded metal range in this for it to balance for flavor at this point but I do get the sense it's still evolving into where it will be.

Oddly this isn't that close a match to what I experienced in that shop, but I'm getting a sense the staff was brewing it very lightly to get that aspect to balance better early on, since intensity is an issue related to being too much rather than the opposite, across the entire aspect range.  I'll do a flash infusion next time and see how that goes.  It was probably as well to try this made like a tea better brewed a little heavier to get a feel for all the aspects, to see if anything stood out as a flaw experienced like that.  Taste range is still an issue, otherwise the rest works.

Third infusion

Changtai:  it's not changing much.  That flavor range is catchy; I like it better than I had.  It's probably better for trying it alongside a tea that tastes a lot like a corroded iron bar.  I think that other tea will be better having a couple infusions behind it, and for using a flash infusion this round, but it does brew a lot darker even for that (at a higher proportion too, mind you).  Since this tea is coming across a bit thin I think I'll give it a 20+ second soak the next round to see what it's like brewed at a more conventional intensity; this really is still prepared lightly.

Zhong Cha:  that initial mushroom and tree fungus (maybe including a little tree bark) has dissipated, and the iron mineral softened, transitioning to a nicer aged furniture / incense spice range.  I guess in a sense it's headed towards where the Changtai started out for flavor aspects, or at least where it was a round earlier.  Maybe that kid in the shop was onto something with his assessment in mentioning that it keeps improving.

I tend to not make a lot of what tea vendors say until I experience things myself but of course a lot of them have plenty of experience with teas to draw on.  Buying this version was a bit of a leap of faith, not made mostly for that reason.  I had gambled on some random no-name whatever-it-is somewhat aged sheng from that shop before, and it wasn't great, but for the price it was a lot better than it might have been.  I should probably be comparing this to that; I think there is still some around. At any rate the next round seems to be the real starting point for this tea, when it finally clears past some initial odd character aspects and gets down to it.

The way that Changtai is working out, not transitioning much but decent right out of the gate, is probably better for letting people try a tea version they're completely unfamiliar with.  It's probably a lot more forgiving related to infusion intensity too, harder to screw up.

Fourth infusion

Changtai:  spice had already picked up in that last round, so this had really been more on aromatic wood and spice versus tobacco range then, and it hasn't moved off that.  Giving it a 20+ second infusion didn't ramp up intensity much.  It just is what it is; it has decent flavor but the feel and aftertaste is limited, and even the flavor intensity is a bit limited too.

It may have just been that initial character of the tea didn't lend itself to retaining intensity over a longer term.  It could've been more bright, sweet, floral, etc., and then didn't have the bitterness or astringency (the related compound proportions) to transition to a fuller tea later on.  It's still fine.  I wouldn't expect it to be much different in another 5 years, and it may just fade more from here, but it drinks ok as it is.  I've mentioned sweetness but I'm not sure I highlighted the critical role that plays in the balance enough.  It's not so far off toffee or molasses in range, and it really makes the rest work.

Zhong Cha:  this tea is striking the best balance it has yet.  On the one hand it's interesting, complex, and a bit intense, with plenty of intense feel, mineral base, and aftertaste to support what's going on.  On the other that flavor range just wouldn't be for everyone, even compared to this other version tasting like tobacco and then incense, aromatic wood, and other spice.  I suppose it's heaviest in a range of incense spice now, frankincense or myrhh or whatever it is.  It's a lot like brewing one of those incense sticks might seem it would be, except I don't think that's actually possible.


This makes for kind of a strange tangent, but I've been talking about traditional Chinese medicine a good bit lately, and actually visited a practitioner a week ago.  I have less to pass on about that than one might expect; he looked at my tongue and checked my pulse, and the main problem for being treated with those medicines is that there isn't much actually wrong with me (I was there to join my wife; Thais tend to believe in everything).

Anyway, check this out about myrrh, from Wikipedia:

When a tree's wound penetrates through the bark and into the sapwood, the tree bleeds a resin. Myrrh gum, like frankincense, is such a resin... 

...In traditional Chinese medicine, myrrh is classified as bitter and spicy, with a neutral temperature. It is said to have special efficacy on the heart, liver, and spleen meridians as well as "blood-moving" powers to purge stagnant blood from the uterus. It is therefore recommended for rheumatic, arthritic, and circulatory problems, and for amenorrhea, dysmenorrhea, menopause, and uterine tumours.

Myrrh's uses are similar to those of frankincense, with which it is often combined in decoctions, linaments and incense. When used in concert, myrrh is "blood-moving" while frankincense moves the qi, making it more useful for arthritic conditions.

It is combined with such herbs as notoginseng, safflower petals, angelica sinensis, cinnamon, and salvia miltiorrhiza, usually in alcohol, and used both internally and externally.[10]

I have no idea what this tea might be doing for my qi.  I'm on some random herbs from that Chinese medicine guy anyway; I'm probably good.

Fifth infusion

Chang Tai:  this tea is just fading.  It won't be a fair comparison from here because I've been stretching the infusion times all along to get it to match the other version being brewed at double the proportion.  Again I think for someone trying to experience aged sheng range in an approachable form this really works.  The flavor is pleasant and the thin spots in other aspect character wouldn't matter to everyone, especially not to people without developed expectations.  I'll keep brewing this because it's pleasant but it will take one minute infusions just to get a light round out of it, probably onto closer to two minutes soon.

Zhong cha:  aromatic wood and spice is balancing differently in this tea now.  It doesn't work well to describe proportion or balance changes like that in an aspect-list style description.  That underlying warm mineral proportion (tasting like iron, and also rocks I guess) is in a really good balance now, lighter, working a lot better as a supporting aspect versus a primary flavor.

Sixth infusion

Changtai:  at least the long infusion times are coaxing a bit of floral aspect out and touch more earthiness as a supporting element.  It works well still, it's just really thin even brewed for a long time.

Zhong Cha:  the old furniture effect is picking up a little, which makes a trace of that earlier tree fungus range more noticeable.  It hadn't completely cleared, I guess, it was just below the range of what was noticeable related to other flavors.  It still has plenty of aromatic wood and incense spice range going on, still with a lot of supporting underlying mineral.  It's probably nice for being thinner, since I'm not generally good about pulling off full-speed flash infusions and giving this the extra 5 seconds works at this intensity.

This tea experience raises the age-old question:  do I like it?  I suspect I will more once I've had it a couple of times, but it still works now.  It would be nice if that Changtai tea had half this tea's overall intensity, with a flavor range more in between the two.  There's just something about experiencing a tea that doesn't disappear out of your mouth when you drink it, that has some structure to it, that all joins in making this a nicer experience.  The aromatic spice and wood range is something else; I'm just not familiar with it standing out to this degree.  I could imagine people with no background with sheng at all, people I'm introducing the type to with this tea, wondering if it's really ok to drink it.  It tastes a little like what one would expect from some Chinese herb practitioner.  That stuff is kind of nasty, actually, but not so far off this.

Seventh infusion

I get the sense the Zhong Cha tea is only about half finished, unless transitions don't justify keeping on with brewing the tea, but I'll close taking notes after this round.  I let the Changtai tea go for over two minutes so this will describe what was left to be drawn out of it.

Changtai:  it's much better, given 2 1/2 minutes of infusion time.  That faint spice aspect has moved a bit towards some aromatic root spice, as I interpret it.  It would probably work out ok to go with a packed gaiwan proportion of this and stretch out the infusions to a dozen or so, and it would probably be even better.

Zhong Cha:  this might be the best this has been; it might have more positive transition to go in it.  That whole list of flavors (which I won't repeat) has shifted in balance, with the earthiness / underlying mineral moving a little towards tree bark or potato peel.  That doesn't sound good, put that way, but it's the way a complex range of flavors (and other aspects) balance each other that's working, not one or more of the flavors being positive on its own.

Conclusions

Where a Laos black tea I tried recently had an aspect range and character that would appeal to everyone (fruit and spice, dried cherry and cinnamon, well balanced and not remotely challenging) this Zhong Cha tea experience really wouldn't.  It's hard to imagine those flavors "cleaning up" with additional age but the degree of intensity would suggest that it might not just fade and taper off over a good number more years, and even if it did it has intensity to spare.  It's the part about using this to share with people to try a new range I'm concerned about.  Someone a few steps down the path of experiencing different teas might not love it but they could at least place it.

One thing I didn't mention about this Zhong Cha version:  it's quite compressed, and the tea leaves are relatively aged, but not as much as I would've expected for a 12 year old tea version.  That could relate to storage conditions (stored in a less humid environment), or that level of compression might've slowed up fermentation a little, by limiting air exposure within the tea.  Or both, I guess.  It's definitely fermented, and definitely not shou, so although I can't be sure it really is a 12 year old tea that still seems about right.  The character (aspects) went in an unusual direction, compared to what else I've been used to, but it seems a good bit of fermentation could lead to that result, even if another half-dozen years might finish off transitions in progress more.

At least it's interesting.  If anyone visits Bangkok they're welcome to try some of it.  It reminds me a little of trying a very atypical "witches broom" sheng version (or at least I think that's the common name for it; it's called trà chít in Vietnam, where it was produced), but it's not quite that challenging.