Water fasting for 5 days

 

More to report on fasting experience, after trying out a 3 1/2 day trial earlier.  I didn't get electrolyte supplement right that first time, and felt a bit off during the night after the third day.  This time I bought the other supplements they recommended in a Reddit fasting subforum, or an equivalent of that.  

They say that you need to supplement sodium (oddly recommended there on a wiki page as both salt and baking soda, which is nasty to drink mixed in), potassium, and magnesium.  I couldn't find the food grade epsom salt so I bought a magnesium supplement.  It turns out that salt substitute products tend to be made from a potassium salt; easy.  Unfortunately the version I found was mixed real salt (sodium chloride) and potassium chloride, so I had to do some estimation in amounts, since I was too lazy to really write down and calculate it all out.  A friend mentioned that he thought that calcium might be an issue, related to how it interacts with other mineral use, so I took some of a calcium supplement at the house, and an occasional multivitamin.  And that's it; that's all I ingested for 5 days, in addition to water.

This writing will work in two parts.  The first is about the actual experience, since I went a day and a half longer than the last trial, and hoped that it would be easier since I last tried this experience a month ago, and changed supplementation.  The second part is about effects, hopefully positive effects, which I'll need to wait at least a couple of days to write it.  I'm writing a draft of the take on the experience just before I end the fast, to get to experience this written communication while I'm still doing it.

Before that just a few related details.  I had considered what else I could ingest and still consider the experience to be fasting, like coffee (not that I normally drink that), tea, tisanes (herb teas), or adding lemon or lime to water.  I opted to omit any of that; I think for a progressed fasting habit adding what works for you would be better, just being careful about things making you hungry or impacting your stomach, but for initial trials it's better to leave it all out.  The fast was really for something like 4 days and 22 hours; I started and stopped on dinner 5 days apart but will [/ did] eat earlier at the end.  I had meant to do the extra night, so 5 1/2 days, if I had slept well the night before, and if it seemed easy and symptom free, but it wasn't exactly like that.  And I don't [/ didn't] want to be recovering on Monday, as would occur if I eat in the morning.

I have a slight sore throat today, on day 5, which I actually had for 2 or 3 days prior to fasting, but had shaken.  Maybe a cold?  I thought then maybe it was a mold or dust issue from leaving our house vacant for two months not so long ago, maybe resolved because I cleaned the AC filters and had that bedroom unit professionally cleaned.  Of course I'm considering if I might not have some serious medical condition, but I doubt it.

About weight loss, I'm not exactly doing this for that, and since we don't have a scale at the house I never weighed myself.  It would be nice if I lost a couple of kilos / 4 or 5 pounds, but it won't change much for me whether I do or don't.  I'll never know, since I won't weigh myself soon after and didn't before.  I've crept up to 165 pounds (74 kilos), when I had been around 160 / 71 for most of the last 15 years, so I would like to drop back down.  Some of that is probably muscle tissue gain, because I've been running for four years, and swam a lot in Hawaii for two months recently.  Still, being slightly leaner would be fine, and that would have all my pants fitting well, versus the tighter ones not as comfortable.

just "after," I didn't take a before.  I do look like a dad.

I ran across a couple of decent but not ideal video references about fasting, this one by Dr. Berg (which gets electrolyte supplementation completely wrong, assuming that sea salt would contain enough other minerals besides sodium, which it wouldn't), and an experiential account.  That "doctor" is a chiropractor, who makes multiple videos a week about popular health subjects, far too many to research any in any significant depth.  I see his input as no more than a collection of internet hearsay, and it's no surprise that he didn't get the only practical detail right, about supplementing electrolytes.  

There would be better references out there, but Youtube is almost entirely populated by these sorts of light content sources.  One is about actual research on fasting delaying Alzheimer's development in genetically inclined mice; maybe that highlights a good reason to take up fasting or maybe it doesn't carry over directly to humans.  Fasting seems to be the only thing that extends test animals' lifespans, or at least suppressed calorie intake does, so there probably are multiple benefits to it, it would just be hard to sort out.

The fasting experience

Was it easier?  It's not as if having prior exposure and dialing in electrolytes made it a lot easier.  I was still really hungry for the first three days, but the mental haziness and radically shifting energy level was reduced.  Level of hunger might have backed off a little, or maybe it was that I was just as hungry, for just as long (3 days), but that it seemed more normal to me, so it didn't bother me quite as much.  Again instead of avoiding all exposure to food on the first day I went to a grocery store (it was a street market the first time), to buy pumpkin seeds and cashews for after the fast, to start back on food with low carb and stomach friendly inputs.  Kind of off topic, I also bought some American style white cheddar, which isn't commonly available here in Bangkok.  

It wasn't bad being in that store, around food, because I used a lunch break at work to go there, and the real hunger only kicked in later in the day.  I guess that had been worse the first time, because I had visited a market in the evening with my wife.

visiting a street festival selling food; it wasn't so bad, being around it while fasting

Lots of references mention how through prior experience you can speed up the switch into ketosis, only processing fat energy, in this case that from your body, not food, versus carbohydrate energy use.  Two ways to do that:  eat almost no carbs the day before, or do light exercise the first day to cycle through existing glycogen reserves (I think that's how they put that).  I didn't attempt that at all, eating a large dinner of Isaan sausage and corn the night before, with pineapple, banana, and orange for desert.  A lot of carbs!  The reasoning was to boost nutrient intake, and to not worry about the carbs.  Maybe a long walk to that store on day one speeded up draining energy reserves, but it had just worked out like that, I wasn't intentionally exercising.

About electrolyte experience:  it's hard to say how much difference this made, but I didn't experience exactly the same heart palpitations that I had the first time (or at least thought that I did).  Learning in mid-fast that I wasn't properly supplementing electrolyte input probably didn't help with confidence related to experience any body changes.  Maybe that practical improvement this time did help with keeping energy level more stable.  I didn't push it by doing exercise, but I did sweep leaves in the driveway and do laundry and such, and visited a temple and another market on day 4 (again my wife wanted to do that, and hunger wasn't so bad then anyway).

That salt and water mixture was disgusting.  I thought that if I could dilute it more than they recommended it would be better, but it turned out best to drink it at about that strength and then drink plain water after to resolve the reaction from it.  I mixed it at double the strength they mentioned and then added cold water to drink it cool, but otherwise I was consuming a variation of that Reddit sub information wiki's "snake juice" recipe, with magnesium added twice a day in the form of those fizzy dissolvable tablets.  On day 5 I was considering dropping the baking soda sodium input, just bumping the salt, but by then it was near the end anyway.

Side effects, hunger and other:  I was quite hungry the first three days, and then that resolved on day 4.  On day 5--as I write this initial draft--I'm not hungry but energy level and clarity isn't great.  I didn't sleep well last night, or most nights, only getting a solid 9 hour nights' sleep on one exception (after day 2?).  I felt like I was always dialing in how much of that vile salt mixture and regular water I had been drinking, and that's what kept waking me up.  Just a guess from my experience, but I think drinking 2 liters of that and one liter of water might work well.  3 liters is a decent amount of water to drink in one day, but I think adding a bit beyond a generally recommended 2 to make allowance for body processes being atypical and no food input containing any water makes sense.  Drinking more yet might pull out more of other minerals and vitamins, but a five day fast isn't really pushing it for risk from nutrient deficits (per my understanding; who knows really), especially when adding a few vitamin supplements.

I never really felt normal, or good.  Even though hunger seemed slightly less of an issue processing all that salt water threw off my digestive system a little.  I didn't have diarrhea, that time, but my stomach kept churning for the first 2 1/2 days.  It wasn't really so uncomfortable, so I didn't mind much, but I could imagine someone finding that off-putting.  At a couple instances on day 4 and 5 I felt a little dizzy standing up quickly; my equilibrium wasn't normal.  Waking in the night I felt more off than during the day, but drinking water resolved that (again I didn't get hydration and electrolyte supplementation completely dialed in).   

It's odd describing what it's like to not feel hungry after not eating for 5 days.  In one sense I'm definitely hungry; if I think about food I crave it, and thinking about how my stomach feels brings up noticing a notable hollow feeling.  Smelling food is even worse; I can smell the neighbors cooking dinner, which I don't really remember doing before.  But oddly I didn't crave food very much at that night market on day 4 evening, even when my wife ate in front of me in two places.  I kept seeing food on the table while working remotely; it probably would've been better to remove those snacks, now consisting of dried strawberries and a Thai crispy rolled crepe / cookie sort of thing.  But the energy issues and general concern about my body experiencing this is worse, and that very minor sore throat.  Better to let it go roughly at the five day mark.

Today is my birthday, one part of why my wife wants us to go out to dinner, preventing me from stopping right at 8 PM, as I had planned.  It's a strange present to myself, to experience the last of starving for 5 days.

right after the fast

Lessons learned / new experiences:  being a little more active this time worked out, and I can see how exercising while fasting might be possible, just in a mild form.  I think if someone practiced fasting more normalizing the experience might be helpful, perhaps not talking much about shared experience in a related forum, not telling many people IRL about it, and trying to include the full range of normal activities.  Not related to how those others would see it, but just in relation to making it seem as normal as possible within your own perspective.  I think going heavy on carbs the day before is probably a bad idea; I probably could've lessened transition impact by not doing that.  

I've read and watched videos a bit more on what it's supposed to bring for benefits, but oddly I'm skeptical of all of that.  It's probably all mostly right, but health claims in general often amount to hearsay knowledge extended from a study that wasn't quite that specific, or worse, general medical care perspective or from the echo-chamber effect of people repeating what they saw claimed somewhere, from unreliable sources.  Maybe that fasting experience just did cure cancer in my body, and offset diabetes risk, reduce insulin resistance, and delayed my later onset of dementia.  Maybe significant autophagy occurred, and lots of damaged cells have been recycled, which should reduce inflammation and resolve all sorts of minor organ health and tissue damage issues I'm barely aware of.

The only noticeable benefit last time, beyond having a different perspective on food, and perhaps a slight boost in mental clarity, was that it seemed like I had a lot more energy when running distance, over 2 or 3 miles (4 or 5 kilometers), up to 8 km (5 miles) on my longer normal route.  That's not really even one of the benefits mentioned in hearsay accounts, so it wasn't confirmation bias that caused noticing that.

Beyond that I don't know.  Maybe I'll add more in a later effects addition to this initial draft.  This took just over a half hour to write, if that's helpful for clarifying how writing just over a page of text would go with potentially diminished mental acuity.  I feel as mentally clear as normal; kind of odd.

Later account, experienced effects 

Breaking the fast:  I ate pumpkin seeds, almonds, and a small bowl of meusli with milk to return to eating.  Of course it all tasted great, especially the almonds.  It was great eating food with salt that matched the food instead of drinking that salty water.  Then we went out to dinner; I had wanted to eat that controlled food type form of small meal first.  A food court burger tasted the best of any burger I've ever eaten, surely only because of the context.  Then I ate a waffle with caramel and ice cream.  Every time I fast I vow that I'm going to eat a very healthy diet afterwards, and that drops out as soon as I see ice cream.  Next we went to a familiar restaurant (MK) where I ate more ice cream cake, offered for free related to it being my birthday.

As to side effects from eating, the first light meal went great, as planned.  I was somewhat full eating what wouldn't overfill a moderate sized cereal bowl.  The burger I ate too fast, and started sweating as a response to the digestive system shock.  Maybe related to a carb spike from the fries?  Probably not; it was right afterwards, and it settled out quite quickly.  After what wouldn't have been a huge meal I felt like I'd eaten a round of Thanksgiving dinner (which I missed, since that Thursday was day 2 of the fast, but they don't "do" Thanksgiving in Thailand anyway).

I did eat that traditional meal, just a bit later on, as a cafe special

Later account of effects:  I'm writing this on Tuesday, after ending the fast on Sunday around 6 PM.  Monday morning it felt like I wasn't completely back to normal.  I didn't really lack energy, or mental clarity, but still felt a much milder form of that odd feeling that had persisted over the fast.  

By Monday afternoon that had resolved, and by evening I felt fantastic.  My wife and I went for a 12 km bike ride at a local park, and that felt like it took absolutely no effort at all, so I went out for a run right afterwards.  That's the fastest I've ever ran that 4 km loop (not that I time it; I'm oddly opposed to that, which I won't go into here).  I usually either run an 8 km milder pace circuit (5 miles or so), or with the shorter 4 km version I include a 1 km (two thirds mile) maximum speed segment at the end, and it was surprising how it felt effortless for the entire run, and that pace was crazy the last kilometer.  It helps to adjust the form and effort by matching stride pace count to breathing pace, automatically  changing both and the relationship at different speeds, and it was hard to get it to push towards a highest speed near-failure point; I could just keep going faster.

anyone visiting Bangkok might check out renting bikes at Rot Fai park; it's so nice there

There is no way that fasting improved my cardio capacity, but it definitely felt like it did.  I think that was because use of fat based (ketogenic?) energy supply was boosted, becoming a much more familiar internal process, so the other sub-processes of lactic acid and carbon dioxide removal and oxygen intake felt more comfortable.  I don't know why.  I'm not sore at all the day after, just a little stiff; that I can't explain either.  It is possible that the 45 minute biking warm up helped out a lot.

Mentally I feel normal, maybe slightly sharper.  My energy level is good.  As I was telling my wife maybe it's all because my baseline of feeling relatively terrible for 5 days makes "back to normal" feel like I'm bright, sharp, and energetic.  

I slept ok for the past two nights, with some interruption last night, but then my sleep hasn't been as consistent since returning from Hawaii, nearly two months ago.  Unusually vivid dreams have been a side effect during fasting, and also an after-effect.  I don't know what to make of that.

It would be nice if I had more experiential input or conclusions to share, but that's pretty much it.  It did seem a good bit easier than the first fast, just still rough enough, so it seems possible that after another round or two it might be much more manageable.  I'm not sure if I'll do it again, but probably that boost in running experience is going to be quite tempting.  I'll do the longer run again later in the week, so I can see if that was a temporary effect, or if I can fly through the routes now, which would seem strange.

kids making colored sand street art at that festival

a better look at more of their work

(off topic) this local mall sells the houses ($45), but not gingerbread men, so strange

Talking to an anthropologist about tea culture changes

 

Some time back I first talked to an anthropology phd student researching tea culture, Thiago Braga, first about online or Western tea culture issues, and later about his research related to China.  Then we met with him and a Vietnamese tea vendor in an online meetup session, Steve of Viet Sun, (a few weeks prior at time of writing this draft, but that was months ago now).

Here I'll try to summarize a good bit of discussion across a lot of subject scope, since I think it would be interesting to others.  A lot of what we covered related to me sorting out what an anthropology research perspective amounts to, which will get less focus here, or next to none.  Since I've delayed posting this due to reviewing it further, then letting it hang, I'll mention how these ideas seem in looking back.

The parts about China are especially interesting, I suppose because we are still going through details of how Western uptake of tea culture themes go.  The research and writing about China is much more developed, in a final paper form, related to what Thiago has produced.  My impression and summary of that is still going to be partly wrong, because I could only do so much with specialized use of terms and arrangement of ideas, so this works better as a general impression than an accurate summary. 

His take, or my take on it, is that in modern Chinese society people take up specialized forms of tea interest, kind of corresponding to "tea enthusiast" practices elsewhere, in part to connect them to interesting forms of traditional society.  They take classes in "tea arts," to learn ceremonial brewing.  

It's partly a way to add more meaning to their lives, which may have been reduced by the standard modernization themes:  relocation to urban areas, emphasis on less traditional job and career advancement, consumerism / materialism tying to status concerns, modern hobby interests not necessarily being grounded in tradition (eg. online range).  Playing video games is fine, or participating in Chinese equivalents to Facebook and Twitter, but there would be a natural appeal to connecting with older forms of traditional culture that hold meaning in different ways.  Participating in traditional and ceremonial tea study and practice can support that.

At first I more or less rejected that this is a modern movement that seems valid or widespread.  I have experienced three main contact points with Chinese culture, beyond visiting China three times, which I won't count as that:  a few close family friends were Chinese families, I talk regularly with some Chinese producer and vendor contacts, and I did work projects that involved routine contact with Chinese companies and individuals (not so many, but the contact was significant).  From all that it's my understanding that traditional tea interest isn't ubiquitous in China, but it remains common enough, at least related to just drinking tea, but that uptake of the more limited special ceremonial forms is quite rare.  None of those family friends drank much tea, or had any special interest in the subject, but I suppose it matched the form and level of interest in coffee drinking in the US prior to Starbucks helping change that landscape slightly in the 90s.  They bought what was in grocery stores or local markets, and weren't familiar with much for tea types, even in a local range, but they still drank tea.

Thiago's interpretation of a movement in modern Chinese tea culture

Thiago saw more of another side of modern tea culture, one I wasn't familiar with.  "Marshal N," the tea blogger, has described tea practices in terms of people taking classes in tea background and tea preparation in Hong Kong in a Tea Addict's Journal, one of the absolute best and most influential Western blogs on the subject--it was like that.  It went even further, because Thiago described chains of these sorts of places offering not just information and classes but also certificates, passing on an accreditation that someone has learned tea background and ceremonial practice competency.  I guess this overlaps quite a bit with the "sommelier" oriented classes in "the West."  I hadn't heard of this, beyond blog posts mentioning training classes that didn't really sound like that.

Next one might consider how this may or may not be considered mainstream.  Probably not, if the idea is that uptake involves a significant percentage of the population.  Then that drops out as a special concern, in this case, because from his research defining cultural aspects and forms is about the range of potential perspectives within modern cultural development, not only what is most common.  It's no less valid for being somewhat rare, and probably no less interesting.  Conclusions about what it means might shift a little related to level of uptake, in the end, but maybe not even that so much.

It was a little frustrating at first trying to place how he was framing this interest (/ movement, form of practice, expression, and self-definition) in terms of it being a valid historical movement, if it really was based on historical cultural practices.  It just wasn't coming up as a concern.  Then it turns out that maybe that doesn't matter, depending on how and why you are doing the cultural review.  If ceremonial tea practices are presented as authentic, part of an old inherited tradition, then it's all a bit more genuine if it really is that, but a similar result occurs either way, related to the newer form of culture being influenced.  Then eventually it can be seen as dropping out as a concern, whether it traces back to earlier forms or not.  Surely some focus within anthropology study weights that kind of concern more than others, but it still makes sense to analyze the current forms, practices, ideas, and perspective separate from that accurate historical connection as an over-riding concern.  Maybe brand new, ungrounded forms of cultural expression are even more interesting, for some reason.

Thiago's use of the concepts of ethics and logic threw me off a little in that writing, related to being exposed to very narrow forms of those ideas in the past, in studying philosophy.  He actually referenced part of what I understood them to be, even tying aesthetic experience back to a Kantian framework in one section, but his use also clearly went beyond what was familiar.  It's easy to see how ethics could easily be extended beyond purely moral framework scope, and logic could be extended beyond a narrow range of rational cognitive functional scope.  It's just not as easy to follow that use implied within very formal academic paper presentation context.

Readers might be waiting for me to get back to basic themes; what does it all mean, if Chinese people try to redefine themselves in reference to older tea culture traditional experiential practice forms?  I guess it means whatever they take it to mean.  It's a little unsatisfying, but probably not as wrong as any other answer might be.  It's like philosophy classes never even starting in on the meaning of life, or logic classes never venturing towards claims for or against people actually being rational.  You just don't get that, the over-arching, final, context placement explanations.

From here I should let Thiago say a little (this just doesn't lead there; a review process didn't end in that), about whether I've misconstrued what he was getting at.  Of course I have left out the specifics he did describe about what Chinese people are taking that traditional tea culture to be.  It's the "cha dao" theme, the way of tea, with one other main term and description scope tying to one other broad practice range that I don't remember.  It never became as clear as it might have, in his paper, because it was never mostly about that anyway, just as much about how it all maps over to modern practice, the forms.  All that tea tradition background was treated at length, but the writing was more about how people seemed to be reacting to that base of ideas, not so much individually, but how sub-culture was being adjusted by the contact.  He never used the term "sub-culture," I don't think; maybe there's a reason why that's not something an anthropologist would reference, perhaps too imprecise a term, or regarded as an incorrect framing.

Then what Thiago identified as that ceremonial, traditional take in terms of the ideas being discussed was mostly familiar, but partly not.  Not as much sticks in my memory as usually might, because it's a review of the causes, impact, and effect of ideas and forms as much of as the ideas themselves, and I personally don't take all that traditional practice / historical stories range to mean all that much.  I don't care for tea drinking as a ceremonial practice, or try to collect devices to connect tea experience to that range of aesthetic interest.  What's left over is pretty much simple experience, and then a range of shared ideas about what that experience might mean that tend to not come up explicitly.  Let's go there, and draw on an example, switching back over to how tea culture and forms of interest map over in US culture, or to Western culture in general.

Western tea culture

I co-founded a large tea group, International Tea Talk, and serve as the only active admin / moderator for that group, along with a Chinese vendor who isn't active.  It works as a starting point to consider what it might mean for people to engage with an online group like that, to discuss background, forms of interest, types to explore, brewing practices, tea references, social experiences, and so on?  It's really just about pursuing those directions.  Then there must also be a degree of self-definition involved, as a "tea enthusiast."  Or a vendor, more frequently in that group, since commercial interest and participation as a producer or vendor is more common in that particular group.  That's part of tea culture, people making the products, and selling them, but there's a more natural central focus on the demand and final experience side.

That group had been about discussing tea forms and background, but now the Gong Fu Cha group on Facebook works as a much better example, or various Discord groups do, in a shared chat format.  That's how it goes with online groups; what is popular or active changes.  Eight years ago Tea Chat and Steepster were the two main places for such discussion, and now both are relatively completely inactive.

This leads to considering a parallel between Chinese people attempting to connect with an older form of their own culture, finding meaning in parts of their tradition that they didn't inherit directly from the influence of their parents and grandparents, or at least not in a complete form, and this foreign association.  Westerners must be seeking contact with foreign Asian culture, to some extent, beyond just liking the drink.  Or could it be mostly about only making a new beverage choice, and developing that food related interest form, exploring better tea?

This is especially interesting as a personal tangent, related to my own case, because technically I live within Asian culture, as a resident of Bangkok, and member of a Thai family.  But very few Thais drink tea, or at least embrace what I consider to be "tea enthusiasm."  A half dozen exceptions come to mind, but that number drops further when you remove everyone I know without commercial interests, that don't sell tea.  One local guy I know loves tea but doesn't sell it, and even he offers informative class sessions that he charges for.  So essentially every Thai I know, and almost every foreigner here into tea, takes up developed tea interest to earn income from it.  Ok then!  I suppose that's still a sub-culture form, it's just that the causal background shifts a little.  I may be confusing the matter here, and lots of people do discuss tea online without attempting to sell it, but past a certain point of developing knowledge and interest there is a natural trend to seek a compensation return, an income from the interest.

Related to my own impression of these ideas, about examining forms of cultural input more in terms of what people are seeking from ideas and drawing from them as forms, versus the actual content, it led to an interesting new way to look at Western tea interest.  Why is it happening, and just what is happening?  Again not much is happening, in relation to uptake in terms of numbers of people participating, but some limited degree of cultural borrowing and development is still occurring.  

I'm a part of that, not just in terms of experiencing it, but also as a cause, helping shape it.  I don't mean that as a claim of importance, as if a tea blogger or online group founder is what it's all about, instead as clarifying that those are two of many contact points with this cultural form, or range of forms.  Tea textbooks also would be, and tea classes, tea meetup groups, cafes, and so on.  The ideas are transmitted through blogs and texts, but really the practices seem like a more central part, to me.  At the very center of it all drinking an infusion of dried leaves play a main role, and that has to be a part of the contact, but it's hard to place the role the rest plays.

Later thoughts on personal interest forms in Western tea sub-culture 

That was where the initial draft left off, but I feel it hasn't captured what I kept re-thinking about those themes over time.  Why is it that some Westerners are very attracted to the idea and then practice of tea drinking?  It's just the same central question:  can that be reduced to the potential and later experience of the beverage experience itself, or is there more to it?

Again it seems to tie to an interest in Asian cultures.  Then that part is strange, because even in China tea drinking isn't as widespread as one might expect, but outside of there, and Taiwan, Japan, and Vietnam tea drinking isn't common at all in Asia, in any form.  If the idea is to connect with a perceived form of general or specific Asian culture maybe that doesn't matter, just as it doesn't matter whether Chinese people studying "tea arts" are really connecting with an authentic earlier tradition or not.  There's a modern tradition to get in touch with, and the history doesn't necessarily matter, as much as commonly accepted interpretations and revised forms of that history.

Comparing that to forms of interest in tea, and groups of people who tend to share that interest, turns up a divide in approach points.  For sure there are "progressive" minded individuals who attempt to pair tea interest with religious pursuit, getting into Buddhism and tea ceremony, for example.  Global Tea Hut is an organization based around supporting that interest pairing.  That's far from the most mainstream form of American tea enthusiast approach, to the extent there even is such a unified theme (and there's not).  That doesn't necessarily matter though; it seems like the people open to tea experience might well be open to other aspects or facets of either that experience range or loosely connected range, themes like collecting teaware, ceremonial brewing practices, Asian religions, and martial arts.  

I might mention here that I've been interested in Buddhism for many years myself.  I was ordained as a Thai Buddhist monk at one point, and studied Buddhism and Taoism (and also Christianity) as religion and philosophy in two degree programs, just stopping short of getting a phD to support teaching.  I don't necessarily connect that to tea experience, but I'm definitely also on that page. 

The spread of tea interest connecting to Asian cultures isn't happening through the channels that you might imagine, for example that Chinese immigrants support local interest group formation, or hold ceremonial or simpler forms of tastings, coupled with selling tea.  That happens, for sure, and it was a main earlier channel for introducing tea to "the West," or the US, but now it's on to other types of groups and proponents playing a role.  Usually the driver is commercial, as it is here in Bangkok, with almost everyone promoting tea selling it, or at least selling tea oriented content or tasting event participation, or some forms of tours, and so on.  

I suppose this is exactly what one would expect, that many Westerners are now selling tea.  Blogs also promote tea themes, as this one does, but those tend to be temporary ventures into communicating shared interest, the kind of thing one might take up for a few years and let drop, whether the tea interest itself wanes or not.  Instagram profiles show off what individuals experience, even when they don't sell it; that's an updated replacement for the earlier text blog form.  There are tea clubs at some universities, but that kind of thing is a rare exception.  

Maybe I should bring up one form that relates to how most Western tea vendors got their start in China:  over and over the case of a white foreign man marrying a Chinese woman repeats.  Touchy stuff, just introducing that context.  I'm married to an Asian woman myself, just Thai instead.  I suppose focus on Asian themes was reinforced quite a bit by that context, and that's partly why I've been writing about tea for nine years, although the Buddhism studies came before that.  As I think through the number of foreign vendors I know in different places it's crazy how often that same form repeats.  A few guys are married to Asians from outside of China, and one favorite tea vendor is a Western woman who married an Asian guy, but that form as a driver of introduction and then developed interest might have played more of a role than any other factor in tea industry development.

Back to a running theme in the first part here, maybe that doesn't matter at all, how the cultural mixing actually happened, since the final concern is that it did happen.  Maybe if someone like Bruce Lee had been more interested in tea that would've rushed the process by a few decades.  Looked at this way it's interesting how tea is adopted by other cultures, but the pathway and triggering steps aren't necessarily critical.  Or that could seem very interesting and still not matter, with regards to the final form of uptake and expression.

I've had fascinating discussions about this with a main founder of the modern Russian tea tradition, Bronislav Vinogrodskiy, with some of that described here.  He approached tea interest from a relatively academic standpoint, combined with researching Taoism, and then helped convey practices from both back to Russian culture, switching to an unusual "practical" role.  That started in the early 1990s, surely no coincidence that was when the USSR ended, or maybe that was only a main turning point, with critical early steps before that.  He was involved with developing a "tea club" theme that took off, leading to commercial development of supply chains and outlets there.  That almost seems kind of backwards, right, developing the awareness and interest first, and then the sales foundation to support that?

His take is that conditions were right for that movement to develop then, that it wasn't anything novel he or others contributed that made the difference.  There was an openness to Asian cultural input, and tea and religious / philosophical ideas and practices helped develop that.  It's possible that he misunderstood the cause and effect sequences, but this still seems like a rare form of first hand insight, even if so.  And it seems likely to be mostly correct, that conditions were right for a triggering introduction, and foreign culture interest led the beverage choice change.  Russians had drank plenty of English style tea in the past, earlier on from India and Sri Lanka, later switching to production in Georgia (covered more here).  But later ceremonial forms and other types of tea interest developed right then, which was all completely different.

Judging from slow, incremental development of tea interest in the US and Europe maybe the conditions aren't similar.  Exposure and uptake of tea interest by any one individual needs to be more organic, developed from physically running across the conditions for tea experience, seeing it in a farmer's market and such.  There is one successful Tik Tok channel about tea, and lots of other isolated online examples, so that must help as a secondary cause.  But tea isn't "having a moment," and it seems like it won't, until causes and conditions shift slightly.  

I've been considering for years how I might help give those a nudge myself, and next year a new form of that might be possible.  Or maybe it will never happen until the right time somehow arises, the right cultural moment, as they experienced in Russia awhile back.  Tea could have adjoined that hipster subculture interest in craft goods a decade or more back, but it seemed like coffee filled almost all of that role instead.  I just wrote about discussing that subject with my brother, who feels that tea will never take up the same role in US culture that coffee already does.

As for next steps related to better identifying an anthropology oriented take on tea, I'm not sure.  If I discuss this further with Thiago and he clarifies which parts are way off I'll pass on a clarification here.  If his published work becomes publicly available I'll mention a link to that in a post. 

Wawee 2021 Thai sheng (pu'er-like tea)

 

This is the second review covering more teas from that friend who shared them, Alex Phanganovich / Alexey Zykov.  This is the first of two Thai shengs, this one from Wawee area material (Assamica, of course), actually processed in Doi Mae Salong, a separate area, better known for oolong production.

There's not much more to cover; that's all the background I know.  Teas from that area are almost always referred to as wild growth material, and I suppose most could be, and this could be that.  As I said last time Alex may sell these teas, or he may not, or maybe he just bought some to be able to sell and then it wouldn't last long.  He can be reached on Facebook and he could talk about that, or maybe pass on advice about local sources.  I've reviewed very similar teas from two local Thai sources in this blog; searching would turn those up.

One thing that I mentioned in that last Russian teas review (of a white and gaba red / black version) I'll repeat here, that I think my impression was altered for those for the styles not being familiar, which led to the individual aspects not matching what I already like.  The opposite occurs here; after many years of long exposure this particular style is very familiar, and the aspects are what I value in tea experience.  Just a half dozen years ago the considerable bitterness in this version would've seemed negative, but now it's really not.

Review:

First infusion:  a bit light, not really brewing at normal intensity yet, but very pleasant and promising early on.  This is exactly what I would've expected, or I suppose even hoped for.  Sweetness level is good, even light complexity is coming across well, with plenty of floral range and other flavor filling in beyond that, including a nice mineral layer that should strengthen.  There's no pronounced green or really strong and fresh range aromatic edge, which is what one would expect from a sheng that has rested for a year and a half.  There is fresh flavor range, but the form changes after that much time.  Bitterness is moderate, but at the right level to support the rest.  It's quite good; even brewed light the balance and refinement are unmistakable.  I'll add a more detailed flavor list next round.

Second infusion:  bitterness ramped up considerably for brewing that a bit long to make sure it was well wetted, around 15-20 seconds instead of the usual 10 or so.  That's fine, better for identifying some of the aspect range and quality, just not as good a match for optimum related to what I prefer.  Warm tones make this exceptional, on the fantastic side instead of just well-balanced and good.  Floral range is there too, and mineral undertone, and that bitterness, but warm aromatic range really complements the rest, towards an incense spice tone.  Other "green" range also picked up, a bit of wood or plant stem, but the way it all balances works really well.  Pronounced sweetness is part of that; that effect seems to help other range tie together well.  The clean nature of it all helps a lot to, and the refined character; nothing here seems like a flaw, or out of place.  Aftertaste is good, pleasant rich and structured feel is nice; it all works.

I made a big deal of how catchy one particular flavor note was in another Thai sheng, that I drank a lot of, finishing most of one of two small cakes in the 7 weeks I spent in Hawaii.  It included bitterness, and a touch of vegetal range, but was mostly about a really catchy floral aspect range, or I suppose how it all tied together, really.  This is the closest I ever remember having a tea to that.  It was pretty new, this year's tea, and that difference alone could account for the warm tones adding in to this one.  Resting for a year as a maocha, instead of being pressed into a cake, as that was, could allow for the earlier initial starting point to be nearly identical, or about as close to identical as teas ever get.  That's a promising range and comparison, as I see it, since I liked that sheng version about as much as any South East Asian sheng that I've ever tried.  

To be fair that's partly a statement about personal preference; I don't think it necessarily works as well as an affirmation of general and objective quality level.  But the tea is quite good, both this one and that one, and they're clearly very well made, surely based on use of very promising material.  Whatever this is I would definitely recommend buying it.  If the pricing is crazy, towards $1 / gram range, then it's back to concern over budget issues, and fairness, but at any type-typical price this tea would be a great buy.  

That part gets a bit odd, doesn't it?  A vendor can talk about ancient, wild forest product teas, and mention doing well in some convention contest, and then the tea is suddenly worth $1 a gram.  Different vendors tell different stories and market essentially the same teas in completely different ways, at very different price points.  There is no market value for this tea then, because it's too rare a find for that to work that way, but to me buying a 100 gram cake of this for anywhere near $100 would be too much.  But then you could probably easily buy tea that's not as good for towards that general range.

It's interesting that all that gushing over how good this is was based on a round brewed a little stronger than I typically like best.  That extra bitterness from overdoing it slightly integrates that well, in a very positive form.

Third infusion:  bitterness hangs in there even at a lower infusion level, but it's still really well-balanced.  I actually had two teas from Apiwat that were different versions, one on the brighter and sweeter side, and one including really notable bitterness, and I was just comparing this to the first, but bitterness might be closer to the second, or I suppose in between the two.  People tend to mix up bitterness and astringency effect, since they are often present at the same time, and of course I'm not saying that this is anything like the harsh-edged effect of drinking young, chopped material factory sheng.  Mouthfeel is totally different.  This is rich in feel, with a little bite to it, but not harsh at all.  It doesn't need more time to age and smooth out to be quite pleasant; it's there now.  

It might really peak for balancing more depth and broader flavor range, and more sweetness and richer feel, after another couple of years, but it wouldn't seem in order to age-transition this in a hot and humid environment, like where I am, in Bangkok.  Moderate level of transition in a drier environment, that's not bone dry, could coax out a limited shift that works even better.  Two more hot and humid years wouldn't ruin it, but to me this tea type range is probably well suited for slower, cooler, slightly drier aging.

It's hard to break down the experience further into a flavor list.  The plant-stem type bitterness is somewhat dominant still, and ample floral range beyond that is hard to split out to specifics.  It's light, sweet, and bright, along the lines of plumeria, but there may be more complexity to the floral range than I'm able to notice.  The overall flavor range expresses depth, with mineral and some degree of warm tones underlying the rest.  That could seem more like aromatic wood, cedar or something such, than a spice tone.  It works, however you interpret the breakdown.  Bitterness is strong enough that at least a bit of water between rounds might be good to cleanse the palate a little, to let you experience the full shock of that effect again and again.  Just trying that, it's cool how the water tastes extra sweet, part of the carry-over effect of bitterness shifting to sweetness, which many others probably wouldn't be hesitant to refer to a hui gan.

Fourth infusion:  bitterness eases, and honey sweetness ramps way up.  Floral tones shift to a richer, different range as a result, like how a buttercup flower might smell, or at least how those look like they should smell.  As with that one other Thai sheng one oddly pleasant part of the effect is how clean this is, quite intense, but all in a very positive way.  In a different tea type form one would see that as "refined," but here it just balances exceptionally well.  It's easy to miss all the parts contributing to cause that, how rich feel really is factoring in, and how extended quite pleasant aftertaste also does.

Fifth infusion:  similar to last round; I'll just enjoy drinking this and give the notes a break.

Sixth infusion:  those warm tones are picking up.  I think I'll mention the next round and then drop taking more notes though, trying to pin down the split here between warm mineral tones, spice range, and aromatic wood tones.  Maybe that's all there.  

Seventh infusion:  this is definitely not losing depth or complexity, or changing much, so there's not much to add.  It's just great at this stage.

Conclusions

It's crazy that tea producers in an oolong region made this, in Doi Mae Salong.  This is really good tea.

Related to the point about this style being a personal favorite, and it not being fair to those Russian teas that I didn't care for them because they were sour, this level of bitterness I really wouldn't have liked in the past.  I've drank plenty of sour teas too, and can also relate to that aspect better than I could've a half dozen years ago, but sourness never became a favorite input, and I never matched the same appreciation for sheng with other tea types.  Great oolongs can be just as good, I think, but not if they are sour, and those tend to be about refinement and complexity instead of intensity.

This version is as good as two recent Thai sheng favorites, this one (the Moychay cooperative version) and this one.  Really this is closest in style to the maocha from Gaw Khee Cha (Apiwat), reviewed in the first linked post, with the second pressed version a little less bitter, but still similar.  All three are about as good as any South East Asian teas I've tried, and not surprisingly a bit similar in style.  For people not yet exposed to sheng frequently enough to appreciate bitterness the Moychay cooperative tea might seem best, then the sweeter (less bitter) version from Apiwat, then maybe this one, then the more bitter version from Apiwat.  To me there was something about the second I linked to that eclipsed the rest, a dynamic floral intensity, with bitterness perfectly matched to adjoin that, but again I'm talking here about how oolong drinkers might interpret these teas instead.  

I hope that all would come across as good to many people, but it would relate to how one takes that bitterness, just as my more negative judgement about sour Russian teas weighed in as negative in those.  But that faded after the first two rounds, for both, so that's a little different, since it took 5 or 6 rounds for this sheng bitterness to really ease up.

I'm way out of the habit of sharing personal photos.  Happy belated Songran!

a cool image from a Chinatown outing, a dragon wearing a Santa hat

not so many places feel like home as much as that Bangkok Chinatown

a nice market area for picking up an informal dinner

The US retail apocalypse

 

My wife and I went to a department store closing within the last week, reminding me of a subject I've been concerned about for awhile.  The earlier mall form of retail shopping is dying in America.  It's just supply and demand playing out, right, just as small mom and pop stores gave way to supermarkets, and Walmart disrupted those (and malls), along with other big box stores shuttering local hardware and electronics stores and the like?  Sure, but for many nostalgia plays a role in seeing it differently, seeing a part of their earlier life experience come to an end.  

a dying mall in Bangkok, MBK, but the return of tourism may save it

That was the third department store in a local (Bangok) mall that closed, that I know of, so the process runs well behind entire malls going empty and later being demolished in the US.  But it seems to be coming.  Online shopping runs behind Amazon and Ebay development here, but for sure every year Shoppee and Lazada do more business here, and packages arriving in homes replaces trips out to physical stores.

I'll refer to a lot of what is routinely covered in a favorite Youtube channel about this trend, Ace's Adventures.  I just won't scan through hundreds of hours of videos to find individual statements to support the generalized overview here.  Per my understanding that video content producer, Anthony, didn't start that channel form, and he did credit one main person who did.  In scanning a Wikipedia "dead mall" topic page it seems that maybe it was Dan Bell who developed that, in this series.

To be clear what I'm going to summarize here is really my own take on ideas I've been exposed to, and may not faithfully represent the facts of the matter, or interpretation by any "dead mall" enthusiasts.  I've seen videos by others, but this is only one of many themes I've checked out and let go, so I'm far from an expert on it, or even a well-informed follower of this topic.  I've watched a couple of dozen related videos; that's it.

in my hometown, Cranberry, PA

Why are malls dying?

No single set of reasons, but speculation tends to settle on a few.  Online shopping has been having an impact.  In some cases too many malls were built, some quite close to others, and older versions tend to lose popularity in that situation, and later become vacant.  Wal-Mart had an impact, but Wal-Mart has been impacted by online shopping, bulk shopping options (Costco, with Sam's Club their own version), and other "big box" retailer popularity too.  In some cases disruptive behavior of some mall regulars, crime or harassment, made some malls feel less inviting.  Smaller "lifestyle centers," updated versions of earlier strip mall themes, replaced some demand, by updating restaurant version options and including more up to date activity related businesses, eg. yoga or tae kwan do studios.

fantastic aesthetics!  photo credit to Ace's Adventures Facebook page.

Is dated style a main concern, or poorly maintained mall conditions?

Maybe not as much as one might expect.  Some interiors definitely do have a distinctive 80s or 90s look and feel, which could relate, but many of the videos cover malls that were renovated to return to pristine and somewhat updated appearance conditions (which can only be changed so much), and the business still never returned.  The local mall in my home area, in Cranberry, PA (with a video showing that here), did reportedly have problems with roofs leaking, which certainly wouldn't help, and could be one more reason for major tenants to move out, but it seems like it was economics driving the process, reduced demand.  Covid pushed many malls over the edge, for obvious reasons, but for most the process was already quite progressed by 2019.

malls were literally closed here during 2020, except for grocery stores

Why do people create these videos, what is the interest about?

The appeal that gets cited is an interest in preserving a video record of what these 70s, 80s, and 90s malls were like, before many are demolished.  Some are actually closed during the filming, but more often they're just essentially vacant, with only a few minor stores left.   Nostalgia seems to drive that, personal interest in that earlier cultural form.  Many really do have a novel look, and those that peg earlier standard design themes have a different kind of appeal, for capturing a moment in time, in terms of public shopping space design.  

What I like most about Anthony's (Ace's Adventures) tone and style relates to a true appreciation for these places, not a morbid curiosity about decline itself, but an appreciation for the style and earlier experiences that are no longer available in the same form.

Is there a typical progression in malls dying?

Sure.  Main anchor tenants go first, places like Sears and JC Penney, which first closed as individual locations, and later closed many of their stores nationwide.  These tend to be replaced by other major tenants, with something like a sporting goods store often moving into that larger space.  But there is a process in place that's hard to disrupt at that point, with decreasing foot traffic leading to other store closures, which leads to less mall visitation, and so on.  Gaps in mall maintenance can come up, but again that often doesn't seem to be a critical step in the progression.  Higher cost, volume intensive facilities like ice skating rinks tend to close earlier on, as it becomes impossible to offset high operating costs.  Businesses like a cinema might close later on, or parts of a food court might remain open, with limited customer volume funneling down to a smaller set of food outlets as some close.

This last point ties back to dated style being a concern, and newer small lifestyle centers replacing mall based options.  Older food outlets, like Auntie Anne's pretzels, or Orange Julius booths, can still be appealing related to the nostalgia factor of people remembering enjoying that, but over time food preferences tend to shift.  Since we tend to run a little behind in what exists and is in demand where I've been living in Thailand--a subject I'll get back to--Auntie Anne's pretzels are doing just fine here, as Dairy Queen booths are, and Mr. Donut stores.  Time catches up with that last chain though; it's now being replaced by Krispy Kreme and Tim Horton's stores.

In the end it's a struggle to keep to keep any businesses open.  For whatever reason American Eagle Outfitter type clothing stores and Bath and Body works stores seem to hang in there longest.  Then malls tend to try to convert to using space for offices and such, most often unsuccessfully.

Is this happening elsewhere, for example in Hawaii or Thailand?

Yes and no.  The main malls in Oahu seem to be doing ok, for now, but with many having a dated look and some locals switching over to online shopping it may only be a matter of time.  A Sears just closed there in one main mall, which is how that starts.  The main mall in the Waikiki (tourist resort) area is the Ala Moana Center, the largest open air mall in the world (I think it was), and that seems quite healthy (as of a number of visits in October), even with the somewhat reduced tourism level from covid impact tapering off over time.

Ala Moana; a little dated in design, but it's nice

Christmas in October in a Thai mall, that is doing ok

a large Japanese store went out of Central World, a thriving Bangkok mall

There was a progression of overbuilding local malls in some areas in the mainland of the US that is probably also happening in Thailand, with the main build-out of malls in the Bangkok area only relatively complete in the last 5 years or so.  In other smaller cities new malls are being developed in close proximity to older versions, which could lead to the same cycle occurring there.  Older types of shopping centers close from time to time in Bangkok, but in general those places tend to experience long, slow deaths instead, drawing on limited local shopping support to hang in there.

one predecessor to malls in Thailand, roofed shops areas

the Nightingale Department store, the first in Bangkok, which may or may not still be there

Can standard format malls still thrive in the US?

Of course.  These tend to be newer facilities, with a less dated look and feel, but really local shopping support depends on a number of factors, including what other options are around.  It's not as if everyone in the US decided that walking around a mall is a bad idea at the same time; again instead a number of factors seemed to lead towards that end point.

the Pearl Ridge mall near Pearl Harbor; a bit dated, but it's doing ok

Are there ways for struggling or healthy malls to avoid this pattern?

This part is less clear, something I've been considering quite a bit myself.  If "lifestyle centers" can help cause mall decline it should be possible for malls to utilize the same type of specialty store option availability to preserve their own traffic, even if visitors really don't want to experience the process of parking in a large lot and walking a moderate distance to visit a store.  I would guess that updating restaurant options and adding newer form shops and services might help, places like yoga studios, or moving off the theme of including dated food shop chains onto unique restaurant options instead.

All that is easier said than done.  The overhead malls had to contend with isn't reduced just because visitor demand drops; maintenance costs would actually rise over time.  If a mall valued at $200 million is sold for $50 presumably shop rents could be cut as well, but if a mall is working with less and less visitor traffic cutting store rents is only going to go so far to offset the decline, and there would be a natural trend to try to retain revenue by charging full prior rent rates to all existing businesses, even though many would already be in the process of failing. 

It seems conceivable that a mall could get ahead of this curve and move to switching over to some office use space before the stores are mostly gone, preserving the life of some by adding that related foot traffic.  There is no mention of any such successes in any of the dead mall videos I've seen.

Kahala Mall at the edge of Honolulu; dated in style but still appreciated

a spectacular vertical theme mall in Hong Kong, bustling in 2019

a St. Petersburg (Russia) mall, decorated for Christmas

Russian white and red (black) gaba tea from Egor Matchak

A friend that I've mentioned before, Alexander Panganovich, sent a few teas for me to try, and to write about.  He's Russian, living in the Sochi area for awhile, as far as I know, but back visiting Thailand again recently, although we've not met yet this time.  Two of the teas were from Russia and two from Thailand; these I'm writing about here were from Russia.  

There isn't much that serves as a bio of Alex in this blog but this post first mentions meeting him two years ago, and we last "met" online in a meetup at the beginning of the year, and of course a Facebook profile covers some of who he is.  He's a good guy, a likeable and interesting friend, and a true tea enthusiast.  In discussing his background further his more accurate name is Alexey Zykov, relating to use of nicknames.

Alex, waving.  I miss that meetup experience.

Alex may or may not be selling these; I think he does sell some tea, but that he's not really formally a vendor, in the sense that people with online sales channels are.  We haven't met in person for quite awhile, so I'm not up to date on that part.  I'll check and pass on that update along with a second review post.

In looking up what those teas are it seems there won't be a product description of any kind, but two references turned up.  One is photos in an instagram account mentioned on one label, which matches the person's name written on the sample, Egor Matchak.  There is a longer, kind of cool background mission statement in a vk.com site profile for Jiva Tea, an unfamiliar social media channel, which I will include all of for completeness:

The main objective of our project is the production of high quality organic tea.

We have revived and improved the technologies for creating tea in Rɣsi. We collect and process all tea manually, without the use of mechanical devices. The collection point is the abandoned tea plantations of the Black Sea coast, namely the city of Sochi. We do not yet have a factory for the production of large volumes, we make all tea at home, in compliance with all necessary measures affecting the quality of tea. Compete with China, India, Laos, etc. we do not need, we create an environmentally friendly and energetically correct consumer product. The high cost of tea corresponds to the quality. We do not have volumes requested by people who want to make a profit on resale, but we are actively working on this issue.

Our group is for those who are tired of Chinese fakes and tea of ​​unknown origin, with a series of hieroglyphs and imposed values.

Here you can communicate in your native language, understand all the subtleties of the freshest Rɣsi tea, there are no cultural and language barriers, so it is much easier to study Rɣi tea traditions, watch how everything develops here and now, taking on new forms. Over time, it will be possible to collect tea ourselves and try to prepare it with our own hands, we have been working on this for several years.

It sounds good.  That page has over 2000 followers, and it looks like it was founded in 2017, so this isn't a brand new initiative.  The tea was good enough that it didn't seem like early processing efforts, refined and positive in character, especially given that just setting up a nitrogen environment for processing to make gaba would involve some equipment and learning curve.  I almost never tend to like any gaba teas, so that's not the best start, a complete mis-match for preference, but some are interesting, and styles and character do vary.

Presumably this is all truly Russian origin tea; that does seem to be the theme.  It's interesting that the gaba red (black) version was pressed; somehow that makes teas seem a little more interesting to me, even though storage taking up more space and accessing an even sized amount when loose is no problem.

I could "read" that using Google Lens, but didn't

more label information

Review:

white:  not what I expected at all.  White tea like this--that appears similar, at least--always hits you with a floral or fruity sweetness first, which can be a bit subtle and whispy, sometimes lacking intensity or complexity, but that's always what it is.  This is a little sour.  Then it's interesting from there, with a depth to it, other smooth, deeper, warmer range that is like the rest of what white teas can express, a creaminess, towards a green tea base of light and neutral vegetal range.  At least it has novelty going for it; I've tried no other tea that this reminds me of.  I'm getting the sense this might evolve a bit early on so I'll do more of a flavor list next round.

red (or black, if one prefers):  equally novel, but for gaba teas this character is the consistent, normal range (more or less).  Sourness can be a problematic input in those, to me, and this includes a version of that.  From there it's interesting, the sweetness, depth, clean effect, and range of other novel flavors.  Part is towards rich dried fruit, like tamarind and elderberry, and another range reminds me of aged aromatic woods and fragrant oils.  This will probably evolve some too, so I'll skip expanding on that for a round or two as well.

In relation to match to my preference this tasting has got off to an odd start.  These teas are interesting, and clearly refined in character, with clean and complex natures, but these aspect sets aren't what I like most in tea experience, at all.  Sourness standing out is a rough start taken alone.  They're so interesting that I probably won't skip posting this review, but if they don't evolve to match what I like more this is going to make for an odd write up.

white tea, second infusion:  sourness subsided just a little, and other flavor range picks up.  Next round this might be even better, but the clock is ticking related to this maintaining the same degree of intensity.  This is very fine and somewhat broken leaf material tea, so it's just not going to brew a dozen intense and positive rounds.  Vegetal range became more interesting, moving off a non-distinct effect onto a green wood and aromatic dried autumn leaf range; that part is nice.  Sweetness picked up, and that part is ok.  Sourness is unusual in form, within that category range; it's a light edge in this, that connects to other aspect range, seemingly continuing from it.  

There's a warm depth to this that's hard to describe, maybe like a woodiness that's closer to balsa wood, or something like toasted oatmeal.  Altogether it's interesting, and not completely unpleasant, but just a bit more fruit or floral range would really make this more conventional, and probably more pleasant.  It's hard to even try to imagine what fruit or floral range this experience could map to.

gaba red:  stronger sourness, than in the first version; flavor at least related to that part is perhaps increasing in strength instead of easing up.  I'm a lot more open to sourness as a part of potentially positive tea experience than I would've been 4 or 5 years ago, but this combined tasting experience is really pushing it.  It's not on sauerkraut level but it's halfway there, a main part.  

Most of what escalated is really tartness, to be fair, a related but different effect, and that tartness has mainly already replaced the sourness.  Unfortunately I don't love tart teas either.  If someone did absolutely love tart black teas this would be ideal for them; that's at least half of the overall experience at this point.  

Rather than unpack the rest I'm going to eat something to clear my palate, drink some water, and try again next round.  To be clear there are redeeming qualities to both of these teas, and there are indicators that they are well-made, a good clean character, good complexity and intensity, but a lack of match to personal preference is unusually negative in this tasting so far.  I rarely like gaba teas, so that wasn't completely unexpected, but beyond finding silver needle / tips versions that don't taste like much uninteresting I tend to like all white teas.

white, third infusion:  now this has settled into a range I can relate to, and like.  Sourness dropped out, warmth picked up, and complexity is interesting and positive.  What I meant by "autumn fallen leaves" may or may not be clear, but that's at the crux of this experience.  It could mean different things to different people, since fallen leaves smell completely differently depending on leaf type, how dry they are, how other background scents combine, and any number of other minor inputs.  Back "home," in Western PA, there's a woody depth to that range, across all it expresses, because the scent of fall is about many types of plant material settling in many different ways.  Here tropical fragrant leaves fall and dry resulting in sweet and complex scents, that are much different.  It's probably closer to what I experience here, with lots of complexity, but in a lighter range, with less earthy depth.

Other almost intangible inputs work out well:  level of sweetness, clean character, hints of other range (maybe floral finally is factoring in), even a light fruit tone, bridging every so slightly into citrus scope.  Depending on interpretation this either is citrusy, light like lime or lemon, or it includes a touch of green wood scope, which is still how I interpret it.  Or that could be like a touch of dandelion, combining many of the other aspect themes I've mentioned, the light floral and fragrant dried leaf range.  It's nice.

red gaba:  brewing this light seemed to help tartness balance better; it still includes that but it has diminished to a minor contributing aspect.  Warmth picks up, now in a cinnamon sort of range.  It's interesting that this changed so much from last round, and that both shifted from tea experience I really disliked into such positive range over just one round.  That has to tie to that intangible complexity and quality issue I mentioned; a poorly made or low quality material tea wouldn't have the potential to transition so much in interesting ways, the flaws would be what you'd get.  I still definitely wouldn't buy this tea, but for people into gaba it could be really appealing.  

Since I've not done a proper flavor breakdown I should mention some of the rest, to get this to add up to a description.  That warm range serves as a base for this now, with tartness very limited, almost gone (strange; I think infusion intensity and round to round transition combined in an odd way).  Beyond that there is a sort of wine-like quality to this now, towards brandy, maybe only partly there, more like a tisane that's popular here, roselle.  I suppose that tastes a little like rose leaf tisane, just with more intensity and more of a tart edge, and a little towards red wine flavors.

white tea, fourth infusion:  I think a pleasant floral infusion ramped up, but the flavor mix is complex enough that it requires a lot of judgment and interpretation.  This is as good as it's been, quite pleasant.

red gaba tea:  also the best this has been; that cinnamon spice warmth, roselle tisane floral tone, towards red wine range depth are nice together.

As does tend to happen on weekends I need to get to a long task list; I'll stop taking notes there and mention changes in conclusion notes later, if those apply

Conclusions:

The teas stayed positive for extra rounds but didn't change so much.

I was considering how I probably would've interpreted the experience much more positively if that tea range had been more familiar.  I really didn't expect such novel white tea range would come up, for that broad category being a bit more consistent, covering a moderate range of styles, but a narrower scope than many other type-categories.  Gaba versions do vary a lot, with some consistency in some flavor aspect range, especially that sourness.  They're not as often so tart, but tart black tea is a familiar theme.

Then hardly any of that is a close match to my main natural preference.  If the tea characters were just more familiar I think that would've seemed like less of a gap, that I would've found them more relatable and pleasant.  They weren't unpleasant; I was clear in the notes that they had redeeming positive aspects, and were clearly well-made teas in a sense, distinctive and complex, free of a broad range of flaws that can turn up in different types and versions.  Except the sourness, I guess; it can be hard to see that as an aspect that others might relate to better and prefer.  For an even newer producer I might expect that a tweak or two to processing steps could identify a cause for that and resolve it.  It's generally not a distinctive type or area typical inclusion, although I guess that it could be that.

The white tea was quite positive after the first two rounds, clearing out that aspect.  I think for people who like tart black teas the black (red) tea would be the same, very pleasant, distinctive, intense, and complex after the first two rounds.  Maybe well-balanced and refined, even.  I just much prefer richer, heavier flavors in black teas that doesn't include tartness.  Almost every gaba tea I've reviewed includes some sort of related statement, about how the tea might appeal a lot more to someone who is on that page for preference.

In trying the first of the Thai sheng versions, which I've already written notes for, it occurred to me again that this may not really serve as a fair, objective account of what these teas are like.  I'm quite familiar with Thai sheng range, and love that style, and the aspects that are usually included.  Familiarity and bias for a certain range of experience combine to make it sound like that tea is clearly, objectively better.  I think it might work better to say that it matches my preference much better.  But I think I'm going in with expectations and openness to range of experience that favors that tea, over these I'm reviewing here, and the limitation in prior exposure represents the opposite of an objective and complete analysis.  I could like them more just for trying them a few more times; that can happen.

I wish this producer the best, based on their expressed mission and values.  For sure their level of success in producing novel and positive teas will vary across versions and seasons, and I hope that they can stick with it, continue to develop, and thrive.  I feel like the tea community that they indirectly reference in that citation, people interested in preserving prior traditions and opening the door to new forms of development, all themed around more natural production contexts and developed forms of interest, all represent themes and experiences that should be valued.  They're already making good tea, even if these two examples don't represent the closest possible match to my favorite styles.