Showing posts with label tea chat. Show all posts
Showing posts with label tea chat. Show all posts

Wednesday, August 26, 2026

Lifespan and natural death of social media channels

 

Something recently reminded me of the lifespan social media channels seem to live out.  People are familiar with MySpace and Google+ coming and going, but it goes beyond that.  I think Facebook is dying, and text blog posting has been dead for awhile.  I'll cover my thoughts on this, which I've probably written in a similar form here before, or at least parts of this.


My Space and Google+:  what to say; these were replaced by options that worked better.  Facebook killed My Space, and Google+ never really stood much chance.  Google gambled on the social circles function changing everything, and that never worked at all.  Then they gave up.  The sad part is that they really made the communicator function work well; Messenger just is a rip-off of Google's Hangouts, which was an evolved form of their earlier Messenger app or function.  I suppose that was based on Skype, related to the video calling, but it worked well, especially for that time-frame.

It's funny how what seemed to be computer generated image forwarding groups went inactive last on Google+, as if programs had been set up to keep that going, and everyone leaving didn't shut that off.


that's modern AI, but it was pretty similar to that


Facebook:  they shifted from trying to create a new and best case user experience to making the most money possible, and now my feed is mostly ads and promoted content.  It's no wonder that most Reddit users deleted Facebook years ago.  I post to a blog page on Facebook, and that draws some views to here, but in general I'd have to pay them to get people to see it now.  They changed that so suddenly, how their algorithm works, that you could almost tell the exact week that it shifted.  So they deserve the decline that they now experience.

Facebook groups have died in the most dramatic form, as much as inactivity can be called that.  People only want to keep discussing the same themes for so long, and algorithms changes decrease exposure for those groups.  I'm in Hawaii oriented groups as well there, since I live part-time in Waikiki, and those go completely inactive a bit slower.


a group I founded along with a Chinese vendor, and still moderate; it's dormant now



old style forums:  I miss these.  Tea Chat was the main place to discuss tea online at one point, an old forum hosted by Adagio.  They were already dead by the time they replaced the old moderators and ramped up use of marketing promotion of themselves on there.

Their time has came and went.  Someone tried to re-create it all as a new Tea Forum, but it never gained traction.  Expat / foreigner forums also died quite awhile ago, nearly a decade back now.


an interesting topic in a relatively inactive Tea Forum



Quora:  other themed sites come and go, as Quora has.  The question and answer theme only had so much potential, and it took them a half dozen years or so to extract that, and now that has been dead for a half dozen years.  You can say that it was mismanagement that killed it, that whatever approaches and programs didn't work out, and monetization always was a real problem for them.  But those sites seem to have a natural lifespan when they work out, and that form seemed to have an expiration built in.

I started two "groups" on Quora, which they called Spaces.  The site was dying when they rolled that out, as a promising last ditch effort to renew interest.  It absolutely didn't work.  If they had done so about two years earlier it might have.  I still post to those, a little, but it's just to spread out external links, which someone could possibly read there, and to add to the potential of Quora.  But it won't change anything.




Lessons learned:  I'm not so sure about this part.  Every composite thing is subject to dissolution?  That's Buddhism, by the way.  Surely we could dig a little deeper.

The life spans seem to play out in familiar patterns.  Earlier on, when a site or platform is inclined to work, it goes through an expansion phase, and whatever is novel is really developed.  Participation increases quickly.  In a mature phase that stays stable, and functions change, often in ways that don't actually work better.  Maybe that cause and effect goes mostly in one way, and once changes start to be for the worse the writing is on the wall?  

Then there's a drop-off, when it all just falls apart.  This happens quietly.  It's just inactivity, nothing too dramatic or clearly defined.  Let's examine the case of an active site and guess where they might be.


Reddit:  user base is huge in Reddit; r/tea has over a million subscribers.  Oddly that number isn't prominently shown now; I couldn't find it, and used Google to get that vague count.  Why would they hide those follower counts now?  It says there are over 300k active members there (308k weekly visitors), which probably rotate some.

Reddit changed their algorithm in the last half a year or so.  In the past it was a stream of whatever subs you followed, and whatever user posts you follow, and now they show you whatever the algorithm decides you might like, half what you follow, and half whatever else.  Sound familiar?  That's the same change Facebook made many years ago.  You can't easily customize what you see.  If you like or comment on something you're going to see a lot more of that, and there may or may not be any way to manually adjust that process.

As I see it Reddit is in the levelled off phase; functions and form are not changing much, and the changes that do occur aren't positive.  Groups (subs) discussions tend to evolve to repeat in ways that aren't typically positive.  It's easy for sensational content to gain traction, and for other topic discussion to be crowded out by that.  If the pattern holds the owners of Reddit will decide to sell the site at some point, and the new "private equity" owners will make changes to squeeze all of the profit potential available out of it, and essentially kill the site experience and the site.


Somehow on r/tea the participants prior exposure level, where they are on the learning curve for the subject, never changes, and never moves forward.  I suppose people only discuss a subject until they tire of hearing of it, and don't go through a lot of learning curve and still keep participating.  Even in groups where the discussions were advanced, and perspectives were quite mature, there was some sort of natural end point to be experienced.  That Adagio / Tea Chat forum related to real experts joining in, and the Puerh Tea Club on Facebook was based around really developed perspective input, and both are dead now.  Expat--Western foreigners living abroad--forums came and went in a similar way.


Steepster was an interesting different kind of example, a tea discussion and review site.  It worked because people really wanted a place to retain short tea reviews, of their own, and to compare notes with others.  But now they don't?  Shared interest themes sort of play out.





No more Steepster for me.  I had no idea there was ever any issue with there, and haven't checked in on that site in a couple of years.


So it's interesting how Reddit shows how that builds up to an entire site's life and death, as Quora experienced.  People tire of the specific channel form too.  Abstract things "ruin it."  You might expect the pressure of the next catchier, better formatted thing to be a main cause, but it's almost not that, or seems not to be.  Facebook groups may have killed Tea Chat, but Reddit didn't kill them, and Discord tea groups (servers) also didn't, which are now active among younger people.

Discord is sort of something else, but it's not informative to go into that, related to explaining this topic.  It's message-stream discussion groups, like earlier topic forum threads, but set up differently.  It's fine; it works well for people into that format.  It works out to be more social than older style topic threads, maybe trading out the potential for retaining information for reference as a result of the form difference.


Back to the broader perspective, the transitions we all experience build up to these site lifespan transitions.  I don't think it's all about moderators ruining things, or form changes decreasing the site's function and appeal.  There is a general pattern of development where at one point a site or platform host decides to really monetize the activity, and that's always a turning point.  It's like when McDonald's doubles their pricing over several years, while their food quality declines a little; it just doesn't work.




MySpace still exists, and my old profile does.  I was never really active on there.  It's funny that I can pull up MySpace and use it but not Steepster.  I've heard that someone was discussing renewing MySpace, again, to try to bring it back to life.  They could probably copy a lot of the early 2010s Facebook design and it would work better than FB does now.


Friday, February 13, 2026

Oolong pu'er, revisited

 

one of my all-time favorite teas;  it was fresh, bright, sweet, fruity, and approachable


I wrote about this theme long ago (in 2018, here).  Before posting this I'll re-read that, but it's really on a slightly different topic.  In the past people that's what people called sheng pu'er that was approachable when young (newish), or else "pulong," if it wasn't bitter and astringent.  That could have related to some oxidation occurring as a processing input, but the tea character could have worked out that way for whatever varying reasons.  Plant type material and processing varies, and climate and weather input does, and so on, so a tea could be approachable and lack challenging forms of aspect intensity for different reasons.  One other input could be that it was over-heated, so more similar to green tea, which works out in some comparable ways, but that isn't the same thing.

The main idea, as I remember it, was that sheng pu'er that is sweet, mild, floral, and fruity (often including that range) early on won't usually age as positively, and it's more suitable for drinking within a couple of years of production.  Or maybe that was just my take, which could've shifted some since then?

This is about pu'er with actual oxidation input, more specifically about a few related versions like that from Vietnam, so really "pu'er-style tea," given the Yunnan origin naming designation limitation.  That naming convention is a bit odd, to me.  Matcha isn't restricted, that name, or Oriental Beauty isn't (which is kind of politically incorrect now anyway), and limiting something like Darjeeling to that named origin area is completely different.  But I get it, and will just move on.


the 2023 (left) and 2024 versions; it may not only be extra age making one darker



Quang Tom Lao Cai origin examples


This theme comes up a good bit related to South East Asian origin sheng pu'er (or the same tea under whatever name you apply), but not as explicitly as in this case, where the vendor is open about the input.  It's written on the label (for a tea I just reviewed, from the Quang Tom producer out of Lao Cai, Vietnam):


Name: Freshly Fermented Green Tea Cake (Green Tea Series) 

Ingredients: 100% ancient Shan Tuyet tea buds, sun-dried and fermented

Storage: Store in a cool, dry place with humidity < 70%, away from direct sunlight. 

Shelf life: Suitable for long-term storage under appropriate conditions. 

Instructions for use: Take 5g of tea and brew with 250ml of boiling water (>95 degrees Celsius), steep for 30 seconds, then pour into a cup or mug to enjoy. 

Food Safety Certificate: 04/2024/NNPTNT Phone: 0961.129.186 Address: Bac Ha Town, Bac Ha District, Lao Cai Province 

Produced by: Quang Tom Cooperative, Bac Ha District, Lao Cai Province, Vietnam Production date: 06/2023 Net weight: 350g


Then again it's not really green tea (mentioned on that label), but what else would they call it?  Some South East Asian producers call it pu'er anyway, but I can see why more don't.  The most common work around is to call SE Asian "pu'er" dark tea, a reference to hei cha, and that doesn't work very well either, because pu'er may or may not be hei cha, depending on how one interprets the category breakdowns.

That reference to fermentation could just mean aging input, change related to fungus and bacteria activity since it was produced, but I'm taking this to relate to an addition of extra oxidation.  Whatever words cover those two processes in Vietnamese may not be clearly distinguished through translation, or a decade ago it was pretty common for Chinese producers to refer to oxidation as fermentation (again probably related to a translation error).

I usually use "sheng" to describe the tea type, but if they translate that on to "raw," that actual meaning, then it makes no sense.  Raw what?  The old Vietnamese name related to the sun-dried form, per some hearsay input, calling it "dried tea," which doesn't really help.  I've seen it marketed as snow tea or shan tea, but none of that is a real common type name (and per some recent input some of that is a reference to plant type range there, so I guess to some range within the Assamica variety, not processed tea type).  So green sort of works, even though it's not really that.

Related to this tea, to 2022, 2023, and 2024 versions of it that I've reviewed here and here, base flavors of honey and dried apricot stand out, with citrus or other spice range varying by version.  That makes it sound like there is some pleasant complexity, and that's true; to me the teas were quite enjoyable, complex, and well-balanced.  They are personal favorites.  They just lacked typical sheng bitterness and astringency, which for many would be giving up a lot.  For people who have only tried factory tea versions it might be hard to relate to that being a problem, but those inputs balance a lot better in higher quality, more whole leaf versions.


In discussing this with Steve of Viet Sun he raised a good point about why some might not like teas like this:


I think they are interesting. And also very easy drinking compared to traditional or semi traditional young sheng.

One of the big things people are into with puerh is the terroir inputs so making reddened puerh really takes a lot of that away. 

So you can have teas from different places that taste similar.  That kills the experience for a segment of that community.


I agree completely, even though I hadn't been thinking of it that way.  A version tasting like pear, honey, dried apricot, and citrus is distinctive, but somehow a lot of the complexity young sheng expresses does seem to get narrowed down in related versions.  It can be hard to write out the list of a half dozen distinctive flavors, as people tend to, but even without generating such a list you generally get a sense that there is a lot going on with many forms of sheng, usually seemingly accurately attributed to a narrow origin terroir input.  

Bitterness balances the rest in an interesting way, and that astringency adds depth.  There might not be more flavors expressed, so complexity could be similar in one sense, but somehow it often seems there is more going on.  It's not always completely positive, but in the better half of all cases it all is generally good.  Transitions across infusion rounds can vary more, even though that also just depends.


Farmerleaf more oxidized sheng pu'er examples


This theme comes up elsewhere, in other cases than atypical South East Asian tea processing.  Here is an online post from Farmerleaf on this subject; that I see as interesting background:




That's labeled as "Partially oxidized Puerh tea: let's try it again!," relating to a 2023 experiment.


William regularly explores and experiments with tea style variations; his channel includes lots of reference to that.  To me it's especially interesting related to descriptions of sheng and black tea processing.

Of course I'm not saying that this processing is somewhat identical (in the Farmerleaf experiment and the Quang Tom producer version).  That tea, in his video, was oxidized through a very long wither, prior to the frying (sha qing / kill green), and per discussion with Phuoc, the Quang Tom producer, at least some of the oxidation in the other Vietnamese versions occurred after that step instead, and maybe more of it.  I'm listening to that video again now as I write this; I lose track of what I've seen.

The darkening of his leaves during the frying step does look similar to the darkened Quang Tom version.  It's interesting that William mentions using a low heat to limit the charring of the leaves, in that extra dried conditioned (the withered leaves, left to rest for an extended time, weren't re-wetted).  His description goes further; it's really worth watching.  He says that roasting the tea can be included but it will simplify the tea character, so it has to be used sparingly, and that he isn't including that extra step for that batch.


I think I want to keep it that way [not pressed, as moacha] because it's an entertaining tea of course but maybe not achieve that a tea Enthusiast would would like to have every day.

He ends up saying more about how processing inputs, the frying approach, changes things than how the extra oxidation makes a difference, but that's especially interesting:


I don't Shuffle it too much because I want the steam to build up in the batch, so I will use minimum shuffling just to prevent any strong burning.  And then if we want to make a roast I think we'll try to do that a bit towards the end.  But I'm a bit scared of doing that roast because a light roast can really enhance the complexity of the tea, but on the other hand if you do it too much it also simplifies everything, so roasting is a bit like putting sugar in the tea.  It's a bit like it somehow when you smell it's more complex but the mouth feel tends to be a bit more simple... 




He never did include video content description from when it was finished, in that clip, beyond this comment:


I can smell both and you could say a new long-like fragrance so an oxidized fragrance mixed with some notes of roasting...


photo of the leaves from the product listing, probably before sun-drying


A bit of Google search turned up the product listing:


Spring 2023 Reddened Puerh tea


Processed on April 8th 2023

Ancient tea garden leaves from Nuo Gu Wan, Jingmai village

24 hour-long withering, check the video to know more

This is a continuation of an experiment we made last year. While conventional Pu-erh tea benefits from 2 to 6 hours of withering, we let these leaves on our bamboo baskets for a whole day. This leads to a reddened tea, which has to be processed carefully due to the lack of water in the leaves. After pondering the question over the length of a video, I decided against roasting the tea, and kept the temperature on the lower side during the session.


Still no aspects description there, but we can accept a customer comment as limited feedback:


Nice experiment. I was lucky to get a bag of 70g.

On then first infusion seems to be a white tea, fragrant, elegant smooth sweet thin no astringency and bitterness. With the second infusion it is showing slowly up its raw puer character . I like it very much.


Another comment mentioned the approachable nature, limited astringency and bitterness, and a hint of citrus.  


If the Quang Tom producer had used an extra roasting step that could explain the darkened leaves in the 2023 version, since they look to be charred a bit in processing.  Or maybe they also pan-fried (kill-greened) partly dried leaves, also using a long wither, and that led to some being singed a little during the frying step.  William stressed that you need to be careful to avoid over-roasting, and the related trade-offs he is cited as mentioning here.  In a limited form it might be fine, but extending those comments a little going too far it could add a flaw to the tea, not just a tradeoff, but also some actual char effect, as we more often see in roasted Wuyi Yancha oolongs.  


You really should watch his video instead of accepting my summary, if those ideas are of interest.  He goes further with background and outcome descriptions, which I could cite more of word for word to avoid mischaracterizing that or getting it wrong, but it seems better to just cross reference it here.  It's not that long a video, and it's interesting.


That earlier post on oolong pu'er (in 2018)


This tied to a past favorite sheng version that I was talking about just then (in 2018; before I had the same degree of exposure to pu'er experience, only a few years into main exploration then):


A comment about a Moychay Nan Nuo sheng relates directly to that (here on Reddit, by Jay, if he's familiar, who sells tea here):

It'll be interesting to watch it age over several years but my gut instinct is that it will fade rather quickly in BKK. The fruity flavors often indicate oolong style pu that will fade out with age.

I had framed a similar idea in that original review more as a question.

I love the fruit in it, and that overall "bright" effect.  Often when I'm drinking sheng made within the past year I'm saying this might be better in a year or two, a little less edgy, but in this case I'm not so sure.  If that brightness were to decline, as it would to some extent, the balance might be just as positive, or more so, or the tea could've been best drank when very young like this.


All that is probably as good a subject theme intro as what I've written.  That tea did die a couple of years later; it shifted to include warmer and deeper tones, and lost the brightness and fruit, most of what was positive about it.  If my tea budget had been deeper I would've re-bought that, or the next year's version, to try aging what I didn't drink right away, but I didn't.  Kind of unrelated background, I bought that tea in a shop in St. Petersburg at New Years time in 2017-18.


so many amazing sights on that Russia trip, but this captures my favorite part



the more iconic scene version



I retried that 2017 Moychay Nan Nuo in 2020, documenting where it was then, and it was fine as a 3 year old version, but as I remember from trying it since it was going quiet.

Then there is the "awkward teen years" theme to account for.  At a tasting meetup over this past weekend we tried a nice Xiaguan version from 2018 that I really like, that is good, but is at an awkward stage in its transition process (reviewed here last year).  It's missing part of the more forward, higher end flavor range and punch, and the warm flavor tones haven't completely swapped in for that brighter floral scope yet.  I still kind of like it like that, even though it is a little out of balance.  It's sort of supposed to be; aging transition makes the most sense earlier on, when it's limited, and then later, when it's more complete, but not so much in the middle.  The timing of that varies; I've tried 10 year old tea that still seems pretty fresh, stored cool and dry, but 8 years of time in Bangkok contributes a lot more transition, just not in exactly the same form.

It seems like a good place for me to add the next source of evidence, something that really brings all this into clearer focus, related to a tea I've tried over a decade of aging.  I've tried Thai versions that were somewhat approachable early on that I've experienced changing over a few years, but the starting point was never the same (really bright, sweet, and fruity, with really limited bitterness and astringency), and I haven't tried any aged longer than this last 4 year example (nearly that; it will be 4 in 4 more months).  I've probably tried a good bit that was older that had already went dead; I mean examples of the entire sequence. 

I've tried at least a couple versions of somewhat older Wawee Tea Thai sheng, but if anything their versions run a little closer to standard Yunnan style, so that really doesn't work.  Of course the same applies to Hong Tai Chang versions, if that is familiar.


Other cited input in that Tea in the Ancient World "Oolong Pu'er" post


Returning to this post section theme, I re-read that 2018 post from this blog, and it's interesting (kind of new to me too, for being that far back).  It includes input from William, again of Farmerleaf, citing him as the Bannacha owner.  His 2023 thoughts on the subject represent what he now thinks, instead of from way back when, but I'll cite part of it to get a feel for the input range:


By controlling the Sha Qing time and the wok temperature, you can make redder or greener tea, and, as long as it's not extreme, I think there's a large span of well processed tea. Then, it depends on your personal taste, what kind of aroma you prefer, and which mountain you're dealing with. I like a greener processing on Mengku tea, because it brings out the high pitched fragrance of this area. Redder tea might be good to emphasize on the body, the mouth feeling.


The subject of tea community discussion history is interesting to me (which is something of a tangent here).  It's no secret that William re-branded to Farmerleaf as a new business when moving to Yunnan; this is from the Farmerleaf "about us" page:


Farmerleaf was created in 2016; it is the continuation of our efforts to provide high-quality teas worldwide.  We started selling tea online in 2011 with www.bannacha.com which is based in France and offers mostly Pu-erh tea. We are now based in Puer city, Yunnan, in which we have our office and storehouse. We have chosen this city because it is in the center of the Pu-erh tea production areas and the region produces a wide range of white, green and black teas, it is also a good place for storing Pu-erh tea.


So some of that blog post is about discussion of this theme on Tea Chat prior to 2016, written about in 2018.  This post reviews a 2016 Jing Mai Miyun version from Farmerleaf in March of 2017; maybe I knew how it all connected in 2018, that his business had either renamed or reset, or maybe that had got by me.

It's all an interesting read, to me, that old oolong pu'er post, but it's lots of mixed input from lots of sources.  People talk about primary flavors, body / feel, and aroma varying, probably using terminology in comparable but perhaps slightly different ways.  Shah82 passes on input in an extended citation, that doesn't narrow down to a short phrase that I can pass on about this subject here.  His accounts of his experiences were always interesting.  And probably still are; after checking in on that shaving forum he had discussed tea in, Badger and Blade, the last post by Shah8 (probably the same Shah) was last Monday, on page 401 of a sheng of the day thread.

Here is what he said about "oolong pu'er" in that post citation (of Tea Chat discussion):


I will say that taste itself is highly deceptive. It depends on your water, whether you let the dry leave sit in the bowl a week or two, or any number of things. It can change with the years. The classic way people buy bad tea is by preferentially buying "approachable" flavor or aroma puerh. Which is why you see so much problematically tinkered puerh that gives a oolongly fruity or floral taste (or more red and mellow malt). 

For me, the easy way to tell, again, is to see whether that aroma *endures*. Many of these teas also will betray badness by becoming hard to drink or pointless to drink by about brew 6-8. *Few* puerh, however, are done straight processing green. A little butteriness is sought after. Or a little hongcha, or some nice smokiness. That's alright, so long as most of the underlying qualities are still there to age.


To me the rest doesn't condense down to ideas that I can simplify and clarify here.  Everyone isn't saying exactly the same things.  Intuitively the tea would become less like normal sheng for including this processing variation, and less like green tea by extension of a sort of relationship between the two types, and more like black tea.  That doesn't really work as a summary.  Bitterness and astringency decrease, and mouthfeel and flavor profile changes, in the ways described here, and in varying ways mentioned in discussions.


One interesting recurring theme was that overheated sheng, which would be much closer to green tea than oolong, could get mixed in with that category.  The typical flavor range wouldn't be the same, but the tea would be aromatic and fresh, losing bitterness and astringency (although it would retain a different kind of edge), and it wouldn't age in the same way.  Put another way it would include a different balance of main compounds than conventional sheng.  It still might seem like "oolong pu'er" to most people, but really it would be more of a hybrid matching green tea range.

I tried a version of Thai sheng from Aran tea that reminded me of this theme, reviewed here in 2020.  They called that pu'er, related to the naming convention issue I covered earlier.  It might sound like I'm saying that they don't know how to make sheng properly, which I don't intend, but even read that way they could have adjusted processing approach in the past 6 years.  I just keep repeating that the character reminds me of green tea in that review, and guess that it might not age-transition well.  I liked the tea; something in between normal sheng and green style would just be heated slightly more in pan-frying, and it could still be pleasant, novel, and fresh, as that was.


Conclusions:


So do these teas ever retain great aging potential, in any form?  I'm not sure.  The 2022 Quang Tom is still pretty good, just shifting to warmer flavor tones, which seems fine, except that I really liked the brighter, fruitier versions earlier.

How did William and Farmerleaf's versions work out?  There's a little on that in that section, a website comment, but trying such a tea fills in a lot more.

To me it's an even more interesting question if moderate aging ever works really well.  I've tried plenty of Yunnan sheng that worked well aged in the 5 to 7 year range under much cooler and drier conditions than in Bangkok.  Here is an example:  a 2021 Tea Mania Gua Feng Zhai version.

I don't keep track of any but the most common village names, and I suppose that could be one, with it presented as from an in-demand Yiwu local area.  That tea is still bright, fresh, and sweet, after five years.  That probably wouldn't be true if it had spent those years in Bangkok, where it's always 25 - 38 C (mid-70s to 100 F), and almost always 65 to 80% relative humidity.  At the coolest and driest times maybe only 60% RH, but that comes and goes fast.

Of course I'm not claiming that the Yiwu / Yunnan tea version I just mentioned was "oolong pu'er," that it was extra oxidized, or overheated in a kill-green step (so more like green tea), or that it doesn't have great aging potential (although a good number of Yiwu origin versions that I've tried didn't).  It seems likely that there is a direct opposition between versions being approachable early on, bright and sweet, highly floral or fruity, and lacking significant bitterness and astringency, or full and structured mouthfeel.  That tea had good feel at 5 years along, as I remember.  This is a mention of that, in that post:


...Spice range definitely picks up, but it's broader than the sassafras was last round...  Then that's rounded out with root spice, more like ginseng, maybe just not quite as punchy and medicinal as ginseng (which is also subtle, in a different sense).  It has changed a lot over the last three rounds [it had shifted from early pear and dried mango range on to floral scope, and then warmer spice tones].  

Of course these flavors link well with the pronounced base mineral tone, which isn't dropping out.  Feel and aftertaste are significant, but those can be more intense in some other versions.  Overall balance is the nicest part, the way it all comes together each round... 




So none of this condenses down to a simple generality, beyond that one (approachable new sheng probably won't age transition as positively, at some point).  But that is only part of a broader story, that would vary depending on why the tea is like that, and that generality could be wrong in some cases.

I think the positive complexity that we expect from sheng, as it ages / fermentation transitions over 20 years or so, wouldn't be present, across many different cases.  That last review excerpt only implies how that goes in lots of cases, mentioning warmer spice range entering in, but that related to a more standard form sheng.  I haven't clearly established that "oolong pu'er" will always just go dead, even though to me that's implied quite a bit here, with sources openly stating that.  William--again of Farmerleaf--explicitly stated that he was curious about this himself, in that video, wondering how the last experiment before that one would transition later on.


If a somewhat oxidized "oolong pu'er" example didn't balance well at 5 to 7 years along it still might not be clear if it's going dead or just in between character forms.  I would expect that I could tell the difference, from the interim aspects form, but it might not be as clear as I'd expect.  

None of this relates to that 2018 Xiaguan example, surely; the starting point must have been very different.  I could re-try the Nan Nuo version I referenced at the beginning to add more related background, but for sure it was never oxidized to the degree these Vietnamese versions are.  These are "oolong pu'er" in two different senses; that Nan Nuo one related to it being approachable, for whatever reasons, and then these Quang Tom teas are intentionally quite oxidized.  

The "somewhat green" overheated during pan-frying pu'er theme is surely a third and different thing.  One would expect that to age even more poorly than the other two types (oxidized sheng, and sheng that just happens to be approachable early on, due to mixed other inputs).  But it would be interesting to try a couple of versions to know better.


Thursday, November 24, 2022

Talking to an anthropologist about tea culture changes

 



Some time back I first talked to an anthropology phd student researching tea culture, Thiago Braga, first about online or Western tea culture issues, and later about his research related to China.  Then we met with him and a Vietnamese tea vendor in an online meetup session, Steve of Viet Sun, (a few weeks prior at time of writing this draft, but that was months ago now).

Here I'll try to summarize a good bit of discussion across a lot of subject scope, since I think it would be interesting to others.  A lot of what we covered related to me sorting out what an anthropology research perspective amounts to, which will get less focus here, or next to none.  Since I've delayed posting this due to reviewing it further, then letting it hang, I'll mention how these ideas seem in looking back.

The parts about China are especially interesting, I suppose because we are still going through details of how Western uptake of tea culture themes go.  The research and writing about China is much more developed, in a final paper form, related to what Thiago has produced.  My impression and summary of that is still going to be partly wrong, because I could only do so much with specialized use of terms and arrangement of ideas, so this works better as a general impression than an accurate summary. 

His take, or my take on it, is that in modern Chinese society people take up specialized forms of tea interest, kind of corresponding to "tea enthusiast" practices elsewhere, in part to connect them to interesting forms of traditional society.  They take classes in "tea arts," to learn ceremonial brewing.  

It's partly a way to add more meaning to their lives, which may have been reduced by the standard modernization themes:  relocation to urban areas, emphasis on less traditional job and career advancement, consumerism / materialism tying to status concerns, modern hobby interests not necessarily being grounded in tradition (eg. online range).  Playing video games is fine, or participating in Chinese equivalents to Facebook and Twitter, but there would be a natural appeal to connecting with older forms of traditional culture that hold meaning in different ways.  Participating in traditional and ceremonial tea study and practice can support that.

At first I more or less rejected that this is a modern movement that seems valid or widespread.  I have experienced three main contact points with Chinese culture, beyond visiting China three times, which I won't count as that:  a few close family friends were Chinese families, I talk regularly with some Chinese producer and vendor contacts, and I did work projects that involved routine contact with Chinese companies and individuals (not so many, but the contact was significant).  From all that it's my understanding that traditional tea interest isn't ubiquitous in China, but it remains common enough, at least related to just drinking tea, but that uptake of the more limited special ceremonial forms is quite rare.  None of those family friends drank much tea, or had any special interest in the subject, but I suppose it matched the form and level of interest in coffee drinking in the US prior to Starbucks helping change that landscape slightly in the 90s.  They bought what was in grocery stores or local markets, and weren't familiar with much for tea types, even in a local range, but they still drank tea.


Thiago's interpretation of a movement in modern Chinese tea culture


Thiago saw more of another side of modern tea culture, one I wasn't familiar with.  "Marshal N," the tea blogger, has described tea practices in terms of people taking classes in tea background and tea preparation in Hong Kong in a Tea Addict's Journal, one of the absolute best and most influential Western blogs on the subject--it was like that.  It went even further, because Thiago described chains of these sorts of places offering not just information and classes but also certificates, passing on an accreditation that someone has learned tea background and ceremonial practice competency.  I guess this overlaps quite a bit with the "sommelier" oriented classes in "the West."  I hadn't heard of this, beyond blog posts mentioning training classes that didn't really sound like that.

Next one might consider how this may or may not be considered mainstream.  Probably not, if the idea is that uptake involves a significant percentage of the population.  Then that drops out as a special concern, in this case, because from his research defining cultural aspects and forms is about the range of potential perspectives within modern cultural development, not only what is most common.  It's no less valid for being somewhat rare, and probably no less interesting.  Conclusions about what it means might shift a little related to level of uptake, in the end, but maybe not even that so much.

It was a little frustrating at first trying to place how he was framing this interest (/ movement, form of practice, expression, and self-definition) in terms of it being a valid historical movement, if it really was based on historical cultural practices.  It just wasn't coming up as a concern.  Then it turns out that maybe that doesn't matter, depending on how and why you are doing the cultural review.  If ceremonial tea practices are presented as authentic, part of an old inherited tradition, then it's all a bit more genuine if it really is that, but a similar result occurs either way, related to the newer form of culture being influenced.  Then eventually it can be seen as dropping out as a concern, whether it traces back to earlier forms or not.  Surely some focus within anthropology study weights that kind of concern more than others, but it still makes sense to analyze the current forms, practices, ideas, and perspective separate from that accurate historical connection as an over-riding concern.  Maybe brand new, ungrounded forms of cultural expression are even more interesting, for some reason.

Thiago's use of the concepts of ethics and logic threw me off a little in that writing, related to being exposed to very narrow forms of those ideas in the past, in studying philosophy.  He actually referenced part of what I understood them to be, even tying aesthetic experience back to a Kantian framework in one section, but his use also clearly went beyond what was familiar.  It's easy to see how ethics could easily be extended beyond purely moral framework scope, and logic could be extended beyond a narrow range of rational cognitive functional scope.  It's just not as easy to follow that use implied within very formal academic paper presentation context.


Readers might be waiting for me to get back to basic themes; what does it all mean, if Chinese people try to redefine themselves in reference to older tea culture traditional experiential practice forms?  I guess it means whatever they take it to mean.  It's a little unsatisfying, but probably not as wrong as any other answer might be.  It's like philosophy classes never even starting in on the meaning of life, or logic classes never venturing towards claims for or against people actually being rational.  You just don't get that, the over-arching, final, context placement explanations.

From here I should let Thiago say a little (this just doesn't lead there; a review process didn't end in that), about whether I've misconstrued what he was getting at.  Of course I have left out the specifics he did describe about what Chinese people are taking that traditional tea culture to be.  It's the "cha dao" theme, the way of tea, with one other main term and description scope tying to one other broad practice range that I don't remember.  It never became as clear as it might have, in his paper, because it was never mostly about that anyway, just as much about how it all maps over to modern practice, the forms.  All that tea tradition background was treated at length, but the writing was more about how people seemed to be reacting to that base of ideas, not so much individually, but how sub-culture was being adjusted by the contact.  He never used the term "sub-culture," I don't think; maybe there's a reason why that's not something an anthropologist would reference, perhaps too imprecise a term, or regarded as an incorrect framing.

Then what Thiago identified as that ceremonial, traditional take in terms of the ideas being discussed was mostly familiar, but partly not.  Not as much sticks in my memory as usually might, because it's a review of the causes, impact, and effect of ideas and forms as much of as the ideas themselves, and I personally don't take all that traditional practice / historical stories range to mean all that much.  I don't care for tea drinking as a ceremonial practice, or try to collect devices to connect tea experience to that range of aesthetic interest.  What's left over is pretty much simple experience, and then a range of shared ideas about what that experience might mean that tend to not come up explicitly.  Let's go there, and draw on an example, switching back over to how tea culture and forms of interest map over in US culture, or to Western culture in general.


Western tea culture


I co-founded a large tea group, International Tea Talk, and serve as the only active admin / moderator for that group, along with a Chinese vendor who isn't active.  It works as a starting point to consider what it might mean for people to engage with an online group like that, to discuss background, forms of interest, types to explore, brewing practices, tea references, social experiences, and so on?  It's really just about pursuing those directions.  Then there must also be a degree of self-definition involved, as a "tea enthusiast."  Or a vendor, more frequently in that group, since commercial interest and participation as a producer or vendor is more common in that particular group.  That's part of tea culture, people making the products, and selling them, but there's a more natural central focus on the demand and final experience side.

That group had been about discussing tea forms and background, but now the Gong Fu Cha group on Facebook works as a much better example, or various Discord groups do, in a shared chat format.  That's how it goes with online groups; what is popular or active changes.  Eight years ago Tea Chat and Steepster were the two main places for such discussion, and now both are relatively completely inactive.

This leads to considering a parallel between Chinese people attempting to connect with an older form of their own culture, finding meaning in parts of their tradition that they didn't inherit directly from the influence of their parents and grandparents, or at least not in a complete form, and this foreign association.  Westerners must be seeking contact with foreign Asian culture, to some extent, beyond just liking the drink.  Or could it be mostly about only making a new beverage choice, and developing that food related interest form, exploring better tea?

This is especially interesting as a personal tangent, related to my own case, because technically I live within Asian culture, as a resident of Bangkok, and member of a Thai family.  But very few Thais drink tea, or at least embrace what I consider to be "tea enthusiasm."  A half dozen exceptions come to mind, but that number drops further when you remove everyone I know without commercial interests, that don't sell tea.  One local guy I know loves tea but doesn't sell it, and even he offers informative class sessions that he charges for.  So essentially every Thai I know, and almost every foreigner here into tea, takes up developed tea interest to earn income from it.  Ok then!  I suppose that's still a sub-culture form, it's just that the causal background shifts a little.  I may be confusing the matter here, and lots of people do discuss tea online without attempting to sell it, but past a certain point of developing knowledge and interest there is a natural trend to seek a compensation return, an income from the interest.


Related to my own impression of these ideas, about examining forms of cultural input more in terms of what people are seeking from ideas and drawing from them as forms, versus the actual content, it led to an interesting new way to look at Western tea interest.  Why is it happening, and just what is happening?  Again not much is happening, in relation to uptake in terms of numbers of people participating, but some limited degree of cultural borrowing and development is still occurring.  

I'm a part of that, not just in terms of experiencing it, but also as a cause, helping shape it.  I don't mean that as a claim of importance, as if a tea blogger or online group founder is what it's all about, instead as clarifying that those are two of many contact points with this cultural form, or range of forms.  Tea textbooks also would be, and tea classes, tea meetup groups, cafes, and so on.  The ideas are transmitted through blogs and texts, but really the practices seem like a more central part, to me.  At the very center of it all drinking an infusion of dried leaves play a main role, and that has to be a part of the contact, but it's hard to place the role the rest plays.


Later thoughts on personal interest forms in Western tea sub-culture 


That was where the initial draft left off, but I feel it hasn't captured what I kept re-thinking about those themes over time.  Why is it that some Westerners are very attracted to the idea and then practice of tea drinking?  It's just the same central question:  can that be reduced to the potential and later experience of the beverage experience itself, or is there more to it?

Again it seems to tie to an interest in Asian cultures.  Then that part is strange, because even in China tea drinking isn't as widespread as one might expect, but outside of there, and Taiwan, Japan, and Vietnam tea drinking isn't common at all in Asia, in any form.  If the idea is to connect with a perceived form of general or specific Asian culture maybe that doesn't matter, just as it doesn't matter whether Chinese people studying "tea arts" are really connecting with an authentic earlier tradition or not.  There's a modern tradition to get in touch with, and the history doesn't necessarily matter, as much as commonly accepted interpretations and revised forms of that history.

Comparing that to forms of interest in tea, and groups of people who tend to share that interest, turns up a divide in approach points.  For sure there are "progressive" minded individuals who attempt to pair tea interest with religious pursuit, getting into Buddhism and tea ceremony, for example.  Global Tea Hut is an organization based around supporting that interest pairing.  That's far from the most mainstream form of American tea enthusiast approach, to the extent there even is such a unified theme (and there's not).  That doesn't necessarily matter though; it seems like the people open to tea experience might well be open to other aspects or facets of either that experience range or loosely connected range, themes like collecting teaware, ceremonial brewing practices, Asian religions, and martial arts.  

I might mention here that I've been interested in Buddhism for many years myself.  I was ordained as a Thai Buddhist monk at one point, and studied Buddhism and Taoism (and also Christianity) as religion and philosophy in two degree programs, just stopping short of getting a phD to support teaching.  I don't necessarily connect that to tea experience, but I'm definitely also on that page. 

The spread of tea interest connecting to Asian cultures isn't happening through the channels that you might imagine, for example that Chinese immigrants support local interest group formation, or hold ceremonial or simpler forms of tastings, coupled with selling tea.  That happens, for sure, and it was a main earlier channel for introducing tea to "the West," or the US, but now it's on to other types of groups and proponents playing a role.  Usually the driver is commercial, as it is here in Bangkok, with almost everyone promoting tea selling it, or at least selling tea oriented content or tasting event participation, or some forms of tours, and so on.  

I suppose this is exactly what one would expect, that many Westerners are now selling tea.  Blogs also promote tea themes, as this one does, but those tend to be temporary ventures into communicating shared interest, the kind of thing one might take up for a few years and let drop, whether the tea interest itself wanes or not.  Instagram profiles show off what individuals experience, even when they don't sell it; that's an updated replacement for the earlier text blog form.  There are tea clubs at some universities, but that kind of thing is a rare exception.  

Maybe I should bring up one form that relates to how most Western tea vendors got their start in China:  over and over the case of a white foreign man marrying a Chinese woman repeats.  Touchy stuff, just introducing that context.  I'm married to an Asian woman myself, just Thai instead.  I suppose focus on Asian themes was reinforced quite a bit by that context, and that's partly why I've been writing about tea for nine years, although the Buddhism studies came before that.  As I think through the number of foreign vendors I know in different places it's crazy how often that same form repeats.  A few guys are married to Asians from outside of China, and one favorite tea vendor is a Western woman who married an Asian guy, but that form as a driver of introduction and then developed interest might have played more of a role than any other factor in tea industry development.

Back to a running theme in the first part here, maybe that doesn't matter at all, how the cultural mixing actually happened, since the final concern is that it did happen.  Maybe if someone like Bruce Lee had been more interested in tea that would've rushed the process by a few decades.  Looked at this way it's interesting how tea is adopted by other cultures, but the pathway and triggering steps aren't necessarily critical.  Or that could seem very interesting and still not matter, with regards to the final form of uptake and expression.

I've had fascinating discussions about this with a main founder of the modern Russian tea tradition, Bronislav Vinogrodskiy, with some of that described here.  He approached tea interest from a relatively academic standpoint, combined with researching Taoism, and then helped convey practices from both back to Russian culture, switching to an unusual "practical" role.  That started in the early 1990s, surely no coincidence that was when the USSR ended, or maybe that was only a main turning point, with critical early steps before that.  He was involved with developing a "tea club" theme that took off, leading to commercial development of supply chains and outlets there.  That almost seems kind of backwards, right, developing the awareness and interest first, and then the sales foundation to support that?

His take is that conditions were right for that movement to develop then, that it wasn't anything novel he or others contributed that made the difference.  There was an openness to Asian cultural input, and tea and religious / philosophical ideas and practices helped develop that.  It's possible that he misunderstood the cause and effect sequences, but this still seems like a rare form of first hand insight, even if so.  And it seems likely to be mostly correct, that conditions were right for a triggering introduction, and foreign culture interest led the beverage choice change.  Russians had drank plenty of English style tea in the past, earlier on from India and Sri Lanka, later switching to production in Georgia (covered more here).  But later ceremonial forms and other types of tea interest developed right then, which was all completely different.

Judging from slow, incremental development of tea interest in the US and Europe maybe the conditions aren't similar.  Exposure and uptake of tea interest by any one individual needs to be more organic, developed from physically running across the conditions for tea experience, seeing it in a farmer's market and such.  There is one successful Tik Tok channel about tea, and lots of other isolated online examples, so that must help as a secondary cause.  But tea isn't "having a moment," and it seems like it won't, until causes and conditions shift slightly.  

I've been considering for years how I might help give those a nudge myself, and next year a new form of that might be possible.  Or maybe it will never happen until the right time somehow arises, the right cultural moment, as they experienced in Russia awhile back.  Tea could have adjoined that hipster subculture interest in craft goods a decade or more back, but it seemed like coffee filled almost all of that role instead.  I just wrote about discussing that subject with my brother, who feels that tea will never take up the same role in US culture that coffee already does.

As for next steps related to better identifying an anthropology oriented take on tea, I'm not sure.  If I discuss this further with Thiago and he clarifies which parts are way off I'll pass on a clarification here.  If his published work becomes publicly available I'll mention a link to that in a post. 

Wednesday, March 7, 2018

Finding a tea shop near you

I've been doing Quora answers lately, and a question brought up a good point:  how do you find a good physical tea shop nearby?  Actually it related to one near Gainesville, Florida, but the same answer works more generally.  I'll cite that Quora answer here, and there might not be much need to say more than I did there about a shop search:


I have no background with Florida at all (except for visiting Disney World as a child) but this is a good chance to answer the more general question. The short answer: there are great options to buy tea online, and you would get the best teas in a wider range of types at the best value there. Leaving that aside let’s consider how to find local shops.

It goes without saying Google search would work, doesn't it, or some form of yellow pages review, online or the paper version, if those still exist.  Another good starting point is Google Maps, because it’s easy, and something right outside the range of your search term range might turn up (in the greater metro area, or next small town over).  Oddly nothing looked promising to me, for better tea, but that can happen. No need to take my word for it; you can look at Maps results for “tea Gainesville FL” yourself.



I checked what Maps shows for our Chinatown too (in Bangkok):




That's just sad; one cafe, when there are tea shops all over the place.  Jip Eu is my favorite, and Sen Xing Fa is fine for other range (both starred), and there are lost of others.  I did the same search using the Thai character for tea, "cha" (ชา) and that didn't work either.  I guess this is why Google search might not be enough.


Next you can check specific “tea map” resources. I only know of two, and there may be others, but those aren’t a bad place to start. They’re on tea-themed sites, Steepster and Tea Chat. The content at both sites tends to be dated, and it seems unlikely that if a new shop went in over the last 2 to 4 years (when tea interest sort of ramped up) that those references would have been updated. 


Steepster’s link and local shops map:   Tea Rooms near gainesville florida


A lot turns up but at a glance that doesn’t look very promising to me, again guessing from the business names.  A closer review would confirm if my intuition is right, if those are instead probably ok places to pick up a bubble tea, conventional English Breakfast tea, or maybe even a tea and flowers blend, and scones, which aren’t interesting to me.  Scones can be nice but there are bakeries for that sort of thing.

To me this represents two strikes so far. There must be lots of ways to network to the information about local options, and you only need to talk to one right person for them to lay it all out for you, but I’ll only cover one more approach: search Facebook tea groups for leads.
I searched in Tea Drinker’s (one of my favorite FB tea groups, but the one I’m an admin for is International Tea Talk) and turned up just that:
Tea Drinkers  posted by Tom Wood, 10 January: 

Tea enthusiasts-Once again I am holding my 11th Butterfly Tea on my farm near Gainesville, Florida; February 17 from 10 AM to 4PM. My wild plum trees will be blooming and attracting butterflies. I will be serving at least 20 kinds of tea from China, India and elsewhere and displaying teapots, teaware, and tea books. There is no charge for this event…

That person posting the Quora question just missed that event, by less than a month, but Tom Wood knows all about the local tea scene, for sure, and may hold another event later.

As far as looking around different places for where discussions might have occurred there are other FB tea groups, or you could do a discussion section subject search on Steepster or Tea Chat (those sites I mentioned), or the Reddit tea subforum gets a lot of discussion traffic.  I'm an admin for an International themed group, International Tea Talk, a good place to ask about options outside the US, or about producers, and this Gong Fu Cha tea group is for people a little further along the path than most groups, mostly focused on the US.  Area-specific groups are nice, since they'd mention event options, and I'm in one for NYC, Los Angeles, and for Colorado.


The only Reddit discussion that came up said Volta is ok, and I suppose maybe it is:
It seemed it wouldn’t be from that title, on the Maps and Steepster results as "Volta Coffee, Tea and Chocolate," but also selling two other things isn’t necessarily a bad sign.


Additional references:


Since I am using this for a blog post I went back to check Tea Chat's Tea Map section, to see how it compared (something I only mentioned as an option in that answer):  



Scrolling down it also pulled up one more option, Tea With Lee TEA WITH LEE  (at 944 E Silver Springs Blvd, Ocala, FL; I'm not sure how close that would be).
I might be too quick to judge that all these tea room options don't offer good loose tea; they really could.  If you click on the reviews there in the Tea Map section they don't mention the teas at all, only scones and such, which I don't take as a good sign, but it's hard to interpret.

Obviously a reference like Yelp could also work (the link to the Gainesville results), but the results seem to repeat the earlier ones.  That might work to untangle what places really sell, for example to check if "Kung Fu Tea" is really a Gong Fu brewing oriented place or not (seems not, from the reviews):

Kung fu tea has the hands down best boba tea in Gainesville. I've lived in Taiwan and watched the development of boba tea grow there into an international export. This place is the closest to authentic boba tea you can get.  Other places in Gainesville, its so artificial and the tea is just so unnaturally bitter. Here, I can actually taste the tea. 

So for bubble / boba / Taiwanese milk tea this is the place; good to know.  Trip Advisor would be roughly the same sort of resource as that, also tilted towards cafes over loose tea shops (their results for Gainesville; more of the same).

Reddit's tea subforum also has a Google based tea map; I hadn't realized that when I first posted this.  There aren't that many shops on it, and only one for all of South East Asia.  That would really be the key to any one reference being useful, including a lot of locations and staying up to date.  The format looks really good though, very well thought through.




I can only think of one more trick:  if you could turn up a local tea blog then that person would have done all that sort of work for you, putting way too much thought an effort into researching tea source options and teas.  Google search for "Gainesville tea blog" would probably find one (and I checked; it didn't, really).  

If some local blogger's page was only being read by a few friends and their Mom they would be way back in the search results, probably further than I looked.

Online shopping is really the best resource anyway, and it's nice that the options are as leveled as they are everywhere related to that.  But it is great to stop into a loose tea shop and talk to a knowledgeable staff, and try teas before you buy them, or attend a tasting, and to support local businesses so the options stick around.  It's not really related but I will add a little about online sourcing here.



Completely off the subject; buying tea online


Buying tea online instead of in a local shop is a different subject, but a good option. I wrote a post about some of my favorite online resources not so long ago, but keep in mind I live in Asia (in Thailand), so I’m talking about more direct sourcing in that, how to order from places like China. That sounds like the shipping would be way too high, but not so much, since the tea prices tend to be much lower to offset that.

Note that I'm not saying US based vendors (or vendors in other countries) are generally a bad option; obviously there will be a wide range of better and worse options for tea quality, selection, and value related to domestic options.


That reference, more focused on Asian-based sources:  More direct tea producer sourcing


I'd expect three of the better options I mention in that post would be Yunnan Sourcing,  Farmerleaf, and Hatvala (who offer free worldwide shipping on orders over $30).  Hatvala sells fantastic Vietnamese teas at prices that are really a little too low (probably as well not to mention that to them).  Both those other two sell samples, which isn't a bad way to get started, when new to tea, it's just as well to bear in mind what the per-gram cost for those is, to make sure it still makes sense.  If Hatvala is selling a version of tea for $4-5 for 50 grams or you might also order a comparable tea as a 10 gram sample from another vendor for $3 that shouldn't take much thinking through.  Quality dictates what a tea should cost, and it's hard to only say a little about that; once you actually try the teas you know where that stands.

All three of those vendors would end up selling tea for less than most US online vendors, as long as you bought tea in sufficient volume range, probably at break-even or a better deal when buying around $30 worth.  To be clear on context, I'm probably seeing Farmerleaf as a better than average resource partly because I happen to like Yunnan style teas, pu'ers (sheng and shou), and also Yunnan black teas (Dian Hong).  It does also help that the teas I've tried from them seem to all be of very good quality (which is also true of Hatvala).

Yunnan Sourcing (which doesn't require any description for people well-exposed to tea sources) sells a little of everything for Chinese tea, and a lot for pu'er, so although it might take more judgement and sorting to figure out what's going on a full range of options are there.  One downside:  they sell everything, instead of curating, so all of it might not be great tea.  In the last order I placed I loved three of the teas, disliked one, and was on the fence about another.  The Liu Bao (a hei cha) was really musty from wet storage, so that wasn't just a preference issue, and that Dan Cong black tea was just ok, a bit tart for my taste, so that was just a subjective preference issue.




A second tangent:  other tea related Quora answers