Oolong pu'er, revisited

 

one of my all-time favorite teas;  it was fresh, bright, sweet, fruity, and approachable

I wrote about this theme long ago (in 2018, here).  Before posting this I'll re-read that, but it's really on a slightly different topic.  In the past people that's what people called sheng pu'er that was approachable when young (newish), or else "pulong," if it wasn't bitter and astringent.  That could have related to some oxidation occurring as a processing input, but the tea character could have worked out that way for whatever varying reasons.  Plant type material and processing varies, and climate and weather input does, and so on, so a tea could be approachable and lack challenging forms of aspect intensity for different reasons.  One other input could be that it was over-heated, so more similar to green tea, which works out in some comparable ways, but that isn't the same thing.

The main idea, as I remember it, was that sheng pu'er that is sweet, mild, floral, and fruity (often including that range) early on won't usually age as positively, and it's more suitable for drinking within a couple of years of production.  Or maybe that was just my take, which could've shifted some since then?

This is about pu'er with actual oxidation input, more specifically about a few related versions like that from Vietnam, so really "pu'er-style tea," given the Yunnan origin naming designation limitation.  That naming convention is a bit odd, to me.  Matcha isn't restricted, that name, or Oriental Beauty isn't (which is kind of politically incorrect now anyway), and limiting something like Darjeeling to that named origin area is completely different.  But I get it, and will just move on.

the 2023 (left) and 2024 versions; it may not only be extra age making one darker

Quang Tom Lao Cai origin examples

This theme comes up a good bit related to South East Asian origin sheng pu'er (or the same tea under whatever name you apply), but not as explicitly as in this case, where the vendor is open about the input.  It's written on the label (for a tea I just reviewed, from the Quang Tom producer out of Lao Cai, Vietnam):

Name: Freshly Fermented Green Tea Cake (Green Tea Series) 

Ingredients: 100% ancient Shan Tuyet tea buds, sun-dried and fermented. 

Storage: Store in a cool, dry place with humidity < 70%, away from direct sunlight. 

Shelf life: Suitable for long-term storage under appropriate conditions. 

Instructions for use: Take 5g of tea and brew with 250ml of boiling water (>95 degrees Celsius), steep for 30 seconds, then pour into a cup or mug to enjoy. 

Food Safety Certificate: 04/2024/NNPTNT Phone: 0961.129.186 Address: Bac Ha Town, Bac Ha District, Lao Cai Province 

Produced by: Quang Tom Cooperative, Bac Ha District, Lao Cai Province, Vietnam Production date: 06/2023 Net weight: 350g

Then again it's not really green tea (mentioned on that label), but what else would they call it?  Some South East Asian producers call it pu'er anyway, but I can see why more don't.  The most common work around is to call SE Asian "pu'er" dark tea, a reference to hei cha, and that doesn't work very well either, because pu'er may or may not be hei cha, depending on how one interprets the category breakdowns.

That reference to fermentation could just mean aging input, change related to fungus and bacteria activity since it was produced, but I'm taking this to relate to an addition of extra oxidation.  Whatever words cover those two processes in Vietnamese may not be clearly distinguished through translation, or a decade ago it was pretty common for Chinese producers to refer to oxidation as fermentation (again probably related to a translation error).

I usually use "sheng" to describe the tea type, but if they translate that on to "raw," that actual meaning, then it makes no sense.  Raw what?  The old Vietnamese name related to the sun-dried form, per some hearsay input, calling it "dried tea," which doesn't really help.  I've seen it marketed as snow tea or shan tea, but none of that is a real common type name (and per some recent input some of that is a reference to plant type range there, so I guess to some range within the Assamica variety, not processed tea type).  So green sort of works, even though it's not really that.

Related to this tea, to 2022, 2023, and 2024 versions of it that I've reviewed here and here, base flavors of honey and dried apricot stand out, with citrus or other spice range varying by version.  That makes it sound like there is some pleasant complexity, and that's true; to me the teas were quite enjoyable, complex, and well-balanced.  They are personal favorites.  They just lacked typical sheng bitterness and astringency, which for many would be giving up a lot.  For people who have only tried factory tea versions it might be hard to relate to that being a problem, but those inputs balance a lot better in higher quality, more whole leaf versions.

In discussing this with Steve of Viet Sun he raised a good point about why some might not like teas like this:

I think they are interesting. And also very easy drinking compared to traditional or semi traditional young sheng.

One of the big things people are into with puerh is the terroir inputs so making reddened puerh really takes a lot of that away. 

So you can have teas from different places that taste similar.  That kills the experience for a segment of that community.

I agree completely, even though I hadn't been thinking of it that way.  A version tasting like pear, honey, dried apricot, and citrus is distinctive, but somehow a lot of the complexity young sheng expresses does seem to get narrowed down in related versions.  It can be hard to write out the list of a half dozen distinctive flavors, as people tend to, but even without generating such a list you generally get a sense that there is a lot going on with many forms of sheng, usually seemingly accurately attributed to a narrow origin terroir input.  

Bitterness balances the rest in an interesting way, and that astringency adds depth.  There might not be more flavors expressed, so complexity could be similar in one sense, but somehow it often seems there is more going on.  It's not always completely positive, but in the better half of all cases it all is generally good.  Transitions across infusion rounds can vary more, even though that also just depends.

Farmerleaf more oxidized sheng pu'er examples

This theme comes up elsewhere, in other cases than atypical South East Asian tea processing.  Here is an online post from Farmerleaf on this subject; that I see as interesting background:

That's labeled as "Partially oxidized Puerh tea: let's try it again!," relating to a 2023 experiment.

William regularly explores and experiments with tea style variations; his channel includes lots of reference to that.  To me it's especially interesting related to descriptions of sheng and black tea processing.

Of course I'm not saying that this processing is somewhat identical (in the Farmerleaf experiment and the Quang Tom producer version).  That tea, in his video, was oxidized through a very long wither, prior to the frying (sha qing / kill green), and per discussion with Phuoc, the Quang Tom producer, at least some of the oxidation in the other Vietnamese versions occurred after that step instead, and maybe more of it.  I'm listening to that video again now as I write this; I lose track of what I've seen.

The darkening of his leaves during the frying step does look similar to the darkened Quang Tom version.  It's interesting that William mentions using a low heat to limit the charring of the leaves, in that extra dried conditioned (the withered leaves, left to rest for an extended time, weren't re-wetted).  His description goes further; it's really worth watching.  He says that roasting the tea can be included but it will simplify the tea character, so it has to be used sparingly, and that he isn't including that extra step for that batch.

I think I want to keep it that way [not pressed, as moacha] because it's an entertaining tea of course but maybe not achieve that a tea Enthusiast would would like to have every day.

He ends up saying more about how processing inputs, the frying approach, changes things than how the extra oxidation makes a difference, but that's especially interesting:

I don't Shuffle it too much because I want the steam to build up in the batch, so I will use minimum shuffling just to prevent any strong burning.  And then if we want to make a roast I think we'll try to do that a bit towards the end.  But I'm a bit scared of doing that roast because a light roast can really enhance the complexity of the tea, but on the other hand if you do it too much it also simplifies everything, so roasting is a bit like putting sugar in the tea.  It's a bit like it somehow when you smell it's more complex but the mouth feel tends to be a bit more simple... 

He never did include video content description from when it was finished, in that clip, beyond this comment:

I can smell both and you could say a new long-like fragrance so an oxidized fragrance mixed with some notes of roasting...

photo of the leaves from the product listing, probably before sun-drying

A bit of Google search turned up the product listing:

Spring 2023 Reddened Puerh tea

Processed on April 8th 2023

Ancient tea garden leaves from Nuo Gu Wan, Jingmai village

24 hour-long withering, check the video to know more

This is a continuation of an experiment we made last year. While conventional Pu-erh tea benefits from 2 to 6 hours of withering, we let these leaves on our bamboo baskets for a whole day. This leads to a reddened tea, which has to be processed carefully due to the lack of water in the leaves. After pondering the question over the length of a video, I decided against roasting the tea, and kept the temperature on the lower side during the session.

Still no aspects description there, but we can accept a customer comment as limited feedback:

Nice experiment. I was lucky to get a bag of 70g.

On then first infusion seems to be a white tea, fragrant, elegant smooth sweet thin no astringency and bitterness. With the second infusion it is showing slowly up its raw puer character . I like it very much.

Another comment mentioned the approachable nature, limited astringency and bitterness, and a hint of citrus.  

If the Quang Tom producer had used an extra roasting step that could explain the darkened leaves in the 2023 version, since they look to be charred a bit in processing.  Or maybe they also pan-fried (kill-greened) partly dried leaves, also using a long wither, and that led to some being singed a little during the frying step.  William stressed that you need to be careful to avoid over-roasting, and the related trade-offs he is cited as mentioning here.  In a limited form it might be fine, but extending those comments a little going too far it could add a flaw to the tea, not just a tradeoff, but also some actual char effect, as we more often see in roasted Wuyi Yancha oolongs.  

You really should watch his video instead of accepting my summary, if those ideas are of interest.  He goes further with background and outcome descriptions, which I could cite more of word for word to avoid mischaracterizing that or getting it wrong, but it seems better to just cross reference it here.  It's not that long a video, and it's interesting.

That earlier post on oolong pu'er (in 2018)

This tied to a past favorite sheng version that I was talking about just then (in 2018; before I had the same degree of exposure to pu'er experience, only a few years into main exploration then):

A comment about a Moychay Nan Nuo sheng relates directly to that (here on Reddit, by Jay, if he's familiar, who sells tea here):

It'll be interesting to watch it age over several years but my gut instinct is that it will fade rather quickly in BKK. The fruity flavors often indicate oolong style pu that will fade out with age.

I had framed a similar idea in that original review more as a question.

I love the fruit in it, and that overall "bright" effect.  Often when I'm drinking sheng made within the past year I'm saying this might be better in a year or two, a little less edgy, but in this case I'm not so sure.  If that brightness were to decline, as it would to some extent, the balance might be just as positive, or more so, or the tea could've been best drank when very young like this.

All that is probably as good a subject theme intro as what I've written.  That tea did die a couple of years later; it shifted to include warmer and deeper tones, and lost the brightness and fruit, most of what was positive about it.  If my tea budget had been deeper I would've re-bought that, or the next year's version, to try aging what I didn't drink right away, but I didn't.  Kind of unrelated background, I bought that tea in a shop in St. Petersburg at New Years time in 2017-18.

so many amazing sights on that Russia trip, but this captures my favorite part

the more iconic scene version

I retried that 2017 Moychay Nan Nuo in 2020, documenting where it was then, and it was fine as a 3 year old version, but as I remember from trying it since it was going quiet.

Then there is the "awkward teen years" theme to account for.  At a tasting meetup over this past weekend we tried a nice Xiaguan version from 2018 that I really like, that is good, but is at an awkward stage in its transition process (reviewed here last year).  It's missing part of the more forward, higher end flavor range and punch, and the warm flavor tones haven't completely swapped in for that brighter floral scope yet.  I still kind of like it like that, even though it is a little out of balance.  It's sort of supposed to be; aging transition makes the most sense earlier on, when it's limited, and then later, when it's more complete, but not so much in the middle.  The timing of that varies; I've tried 10 year old tea that still seems pretty fresh, stored cool and dry, but 8 years of time in Bangkok contributes a lot more transition, just not in exactly the same form.

It seems like a good place for me to add the next source of evidence, something that really brings all this into clearer focus, related to a tea I've tried over a decade of aging.  I've tried Thai versions that were somewhat approachable early on that I've experienced changing over a few years, but the starting point was never the same (really bright, sweet, and fruity, with really limited bitterness and astringency), and I haven't tried any aged longer than this last 4 year example (nearly that; it will be 4 in 4 more months).  I've probably tried a good bit that was older that had already went dead; I mean examples of the entire sequence. 

I've tried at least a couple versions of somewhat older Wawee Tea Thai sheng, but if anything their versions run a little closer to standard Yunnan style, so that really doesn't work.  Of course the same applies to Hong Tai Chang versions, if that is familiar.

Other cited input in that Tea in the Ancient World "Oolong Pu'er" post

Returning to this post section theme, I re-read that 2018 post from this blog, and it's interesting (kind of new to me too, for being that far back).  It includes input from William, again of Farmerleaf, citing him as the Bannacha owner.  His 2023 thoughts on the subject represent what he now thinks, instead of from way back when, but I'll cite part of it to get a feel for the input range:

By controlling the Sha Qing time and the wok temperature, you can make redder or greener tea, and, as long as it's not extreme, I think there's a large span of well processed tea. Then, it depends on your personal taste, what kind of aroma you prefer, and which mountain you're dealing with. I like a greener processing on Mengku tea, because it brings out the high pitched fragrance of this area. Redder tea might be good to emphasize on the body, the mouth feeling.

The subject of tea community discussion history is interesting to me (which is something of a tangent here).  It's no secret that William re-branded to Farmerleaf as a new business when moving to Yunnan; this is from the Farmerleaf "about us" page:

Farmerleaf was created in 2016; it is the continuation of our efforts to provide high-quality teas worldwide.  We started selling tea online in 2011 with www.bannacha.com which is based in France and offers mostly Pu-erh tea. We are now based in Puer city, Yunnan, in which we have our office and storehouse. We have chosen this city because it is in the center of the Pu-erh tea production areas and the region produces a wide range of white, green and black teas, it is also a good place for storing Pu-erh tea.

So some of that blog post is about discussion of this theme on Tea Chat prior to 2016, written about in 2018.  This post reviews a 2016 Jing Mai Miyun version from Farmerleaf in March of 2017; maybe I knew how it all connected in 2018, that his business had either renamed or reset, or maybe that had got by me.

It's all an interesting read, to me, that old oolong pu'er post, but it's lots of mixed input from lots of sources.  People talk about primary flavors, body / feel, and aroma varying, probably using terminology in comparable but perhaps slightly different ways.  Shah82 passes on input in an extended citation, that doesn't narrow down to a short phrase that I can pass on about this subject here.  His accounts of his experiences were always interesting.  And probably still are; after checking in on that shaving forum he had discussed tea in, Badger and Blade, the last post by Shah8 (probably the same Shah) was last Monday, on page 401 of a sheng of the day thread.

Here is what he said about "oolong pu'er" in that post citation (of Tea Chat discussion):

I will say that taste itself is highly deceptive. It depends on your water, whether you let the dry leave sit in the bowl a week or two, or any number of things. It can change with the years. The classic way people buy bad tea is by preferentially buying "approachable" flavor or aroma puerh. Which is why you see so much problematically tinkered puerh that gives a oolongly fruity or floral taste (or more red and mellow malt). 

For me, the easy way to tell, again, is to see whether that aroma *endures*. Many of these teas also will betray badness by becoming hard to drink or pointless to drink by about brew 6-8. *Few* puerh, however, are done straight processing green. A little butteriness is sought after. Or a little hongcha, or some nice smokiness. That's alright, so long as most of the underlying qualities are still there to age.

To me the rest doesn't condense down to ideas that I can simplify and clarify here.  Everyone isn't saying exactly the same things.  Intuitively the tea would become less like normal sheng for including this processing variation, and less like green tea by extension of a sort of relationship between the two types, and more like black tea.  That doesn't really work as a summary.  Bitterness and astringency decrease, and mouthfeel and flavor profile changes, in the ways described here, and in varying ways mentioned in discussions.

One interesting recurring theme was that overheated sheng, which would be much closer to green tea than oolong, could get mixed in with that category.  The typical flavor range wouldn't be the same, but the tea would be aromatic and fresh, losing bitterness and astringency (although it would retain a different kind of edge), and it wouldn't age in the same way.  Put another way it would include a different balance of main compounds than conventional sheng.  It still might seem like "oolong pu'er" to most people, but really it would be more of a hybrid matching green tea range.

I tried a version of Thai sheng from Aran tea that reminded me of this theme, reviewed here in 2020.  They called that pu'er, related to the naming convention issue I covered earlier.  It might sound like I'm saying that they don't know how to make sheng properly, which I don't intend, but even read that way they could have adjusted processing approach in the past 6 years.  I just keep repeating that the character reminds me of green tea in that review, and guess that it might not age-transition well.  I liked the tea; something in between normal sheng and green style would just be heated slightly more in pan-frying, and it could still be pleasant, novel, and fresh, as that was.

Conclusions:

So do these teas ever retain great aging potential, in any form?  I'm not sure.  The 2022 Quang Tom is still pretty good, just shifting to warmer flavor tones, which seems fine, except that I really liked the brighter, fruitier versions earlier.

How did William and Farmerleaf's versions work out?  There's a little on that in that section, a website comment, but trying such a tea fills in a lot more.

To me it's an even more interesting question if moderate aging ever works really well.  I've tried plenty of Yunnan sheng that worked well aged in the 5 to 7 year range under much cooler and drier conditions than in Bangkok.  Here is an example:  a 2021 Tea Mania Gua Feng Zhai version.

I don't keep track of any but the most common village names, and I suppose that could be one, with it presented as from an in-demand Yiwu local area.  That tea is still bright, fresh, and sweet, after five years.  That probably wouldn't be true if it had spent those years in Bangkok, where it's always 25 - 38 C (mid-70s to 100 F), and almost always 65 to 80% relative humidity.  At the coolest and driest times maybe only 60% RH, but that comes and goes fast.

Of course I'm not claiming that the Yiwu / Yunnan tea version I just mentioned was "oolong pu'er," that it was extra oxidized, or overheated in a kill-green step (so more like green tea), or that it doesn't have great aging potential (although a good number of Yiwu origin versions that I've tried didn't).  It seems likely that there is a direct opposition between versions being approachable early on, bright and sweet, highly floral or fruity, and lacking significant bitterness and astringency, or full and structured mouthfeel.  That tea had good feel at 5 years along, as I remember.  This is a mention of that, in that post:

...Spice range definitely picks up, but it's broader than the sassafras was last round...  Then that's rounded out with root spice, more like ginseng, maybe just not quite as punchy and medicinal as ginseng (which is also subtle, in a different sense).  It has changed a lot over the last three rounds [it had shifted from early pear and dried mango range on to floral scope, and then warmer spice tones].  

Of course these flavors link well with the pronounced base mineral tone, which isn't dropping out.  Feel and aftertaste are significant, but those can be more intense in some other versions.  Overall balance is the nicest part, the way it all comes together each round... 

So none of this condenses down to a simple generality, beyond that one (approachable new sheng probably won't age transition as positively, at some point).  But that is only part of a broader story, that would vary depending on why the tea is like that, and that generality could be wrong in some cases.

I think the positive complexity that we expect from sheng, as it ages / fermentation transitions over 20 years or so, wouldn't be present, across many different cases.  That last review excerpt only implies how that goes in lots of cases, mentioning warmer spice range entering in, but that related to a more standard form sheng.  I haven't clearly established that "oolong pu'er" will always just go dead, even though to me that's implied quite a bit here, with sources openly stating that.  William--again of Farmerleaf--explicitly stated that he was curious about this himself, in that video, wondering how the last experiment before that one would transition later on.

If a somewhat oxidized "oolong pu'er" example didn't balance well at 5 to 7 years along it still might not be clear if it's going dead or just in between character forms.  I would expect that I could tell the difference, from the interim aspects form, but it might not be as clear as I'd expect.  

None of this relates to that 2018 Xiaguan example, surely; the starting point must have been very different.  I could re-try the Nan Nuo version I referenced at the beginning to add more related background, but for sure it was never oxidized to the degree these Vietnamese versions are.  These are "oolong pu'er" in two different senses; that Nan Nuo one related to it being approachable, for whatever reasons, and then these Quang Tom teas are intentionally quite oxidized.  

The "somewhat green" overheated during pan-frying pu'er theme is surely a third and different thing.  One would expect that to age even more poorly than the other two types (oxidized sheng, and sheng that just happens to be approachable early on, due to mixed other inputs).  But it would be interesting to try a couple of versions to know better.

Tea Side Dongfang Mei Ren white and Gui Fei

 

Two more teas from Tea Side, following an exceptional example of small-batch shu pu'er.  They're probably the best online source for specialty Thai teas, but then it helps that it's hard to think of a second example.  I can think of others, but there is no other Western-facing, sales portal based, broad selection, high quality tea outlet.  For value their range varies more, but then supply and demand can work out like that.  If they're selling something that barely exists the cost might end up being whatever it happens to be.  If there is no market rate to reference you can't really identify a typical price in relation to a quality level.

That is how I tend to define value, as price in relation to quality level.  Another related distinction that comes up is teas I can afford in comparison to versions that I feel I can't.  I cut off price per gram fairly low, as tea enthusiasts go, because I'm living off a Thai salary (a professional manager's version, but still), and I'm raising kids, in Honolulu at that.  I don't buy 50 cent or $1 per gram teas, ever.  Even a quite-standard 30-35 cent a gram range I avoid.  If you live in South East Asia and know the ins and outs of local tea sourcing you can still drink pleasant, good quality, interesting teas while spending less, but for others seeking out what's online in the Western market that's not the same.  Your own trade-off would fall wherever it happens to.

I've tried their Gui Fei before, and it was exceptional.  I've never tried another version of Gui Fei from Thailand, but even if I had the quality level of theirs would make for a really high bar to clear.  It's described, and in my understanding actually is, a rolled variation of Oriental Beauty.

Both of these are variations of Oriental Beauty.  That name is sometimes avoided by vendors now, as it is missing on these labels, because "oriental" is now typically regarded as pejorative, as negative and insulting, like "indians" is in relation to Native Americans.  I'm not sure that's fair.  It's an old term, that had been used for a long time to simply mean "Asian."  Then racist connotations were eventually paired with the general Asian theme and image, but I'm not sure the term Oriental played much of a role in that.  Either way it was largely swept aside.  What could be the problem, since this happens all the time, routine changes in language use?

Business names in the East and West were using that term, and some of them can't switch off it as easily.  A main Bangkok hotel is called the Oriental, a central landmark, and they're not going to change that name.  I've been here in "the orient" since that changeover occurred, about 15 years ago, and people here still aren't clear on the change. Political correctness is an American theme; it doesn't apply in Thailand.  And their primary language is Thai, so keeping up with changes in English use isn't necessarily a priority for them. 

For that tea type it already had a few names, so that doesn't matter.  Many vendors went with something like Eastern Beauty, or the Chinese name would work, Dongfang Mei Ren.  I think there was another name too, Bai Hao, but this could get complicated in relation to Bai Hao Yin Zhen, silver needle white tea.

Anyway, these teas are quite familiar, except for the hybrid theme of the Dongfang Mei Ren being white tea.  That's a name for the Taiwanese oolong style (which has been produced in Thailand for awhile as well).  We'll see how that works out in the tasting notes.  I'll add vendor descriptions and links after the tasting, not that it would change much reading that first.  I'd probably notice exactly what the vendor did for flavors, if I did read that first, where my interpretation will be similar but different if I didn't.  He might say the white version tastes like raspberry, then I might try it and mention another fruit tone instead, when really either make for a decent interpretation.

Let's check the vendor listings to see what Tea Side has to add.

2024 Dongfang Meiren White Tea ($17.80 for 50 grams; sounds fine)

This Dong Fang Mei Ren is unusual—it’s made without roasting, in the style of white tea. Just the sun, just the bitten leaves—only hardcore!

[I edited out a part about cold-brewing it, but that approach would work].

Hot brews reveal an equally delicate infusion, with a distinct honey profile and a subtle melody of fruit caramel. There’s also a light aroma of teakwood, reminiscent of sheng pu-erh. But honey takes center stage here—rich, unfiltered, and in full bloom...

Like a true white tea, the liquor starts off pale, almost colorless, and gradually deepens into amber—another trait that sets it apart from classic Dong Fang Mei Ren Oolong.

It's made out of TRES #17 Ruan Zhi (plant type), also sometimes called Bai Lu, and the other version is as well.  Interesting!

2024 Gui Fei Premium Oolong Tea  ($16 for 50 grams; again not bad for this tea quality)

I can confidently say this is one of the most powerful classic Gui Fei oolongs we’ve ever sold.

By “classic,” I mean: pure, well-bitten material (easy to recognize by its flavor intensity, profile, and steeped leaves); oxidized more than light oolongs but without crossing into “red water” territory.

Tasting Notes

Rinsed leaves explode with a fruity mix, led by a bright strawberry note on a dense honey background. The tea is fresh, and its melody reminds me of wild Thai honey.

The sharp honey note, the one that always present in well-bitten material, is absolutely mind-blowing here. You’ll recognize it instantly as soon as you start inhaling the aroma.

The long-lasting aftertaste deserves special mentioning, it brings caramel and chocolate candy tones plus that velvety honey sensation on the palate.

Excellent endurance to multiple infusions, as expected from premium quality. The liquor is smooth, soft, and sweet.

It was pretty good.  I had trouble breaking down the flavors, because it was pretty complex, and the two together were a lot to take in, but then again interpretations always vary anyway.

Review:

DFMR #1:  it's just great, pretty much what I expected.  It's a little light because I don't usually add time to the first infusion to account for the leaves just getting wet, trying it light first, and I tried to back off my typical 8 or 9 grams per 100 ml gaiwan proportion, which is often a little excessive, going with 6 or 7 instead.  For a combined tasting I won't get to the end of the story as it is, trying 5 or 6 rounds, then not passing on how the next few go.  [After going through a session this might be half the packages instead, 7.5 or 8 grams, by the looks of it].

Flavors are in typical DFMR / OB range, including cinnamon and plenty of warm fruit, with this also quite bright, covering warm dried fruit and lighter citrus tones.  Sometimes people associate muscatel with OB too, beyond that being linked to types of Darjeeling more often, and I guess that works too.  Complexity is good, sweetness is great, and feel is a bit rich even for it being so light.  It's hard to pin down exactly how this is different from a regular oolong version.  

It is a little light (in flavor character range), but then those don't absolutely have to be one oxidation level step away from black tea, as they often are.  By appearance and some character range oxidation level is backed off in this, but then the warm tones tell the opposite story.  It's hard to say.

Gui Fe:  much darker in appearance; this may be oxidized more and also roasted, where the other may not be roasted at all, or at least not much.  The flavor range overlaps some but it's quite different.  A warm liqueur-like character emerges right away.  It doesn't taste like cognac or brandy, but there's a part of that experience that carries over, an aromatic range theme.  Maybe that is partly related to taste too.  Then spice tone leans towards cinnamon, as in the other tea, but it's not as clearly that, not definitely and distinctly cinnamon.

Roast input is interesting.  It doesn't come across as char, at all, but it seems like that input is pronounced.  I checked again and this is a 2024 tea.  If they had roasted this a bit too much a bit of char effect would come across, and then it might be better drinking it 2 or 3 years later after that had settled.  In a year a tea could still change but it seems likely that they've nailed the roast input, that it never tasted burnt in the slightest.  Maybe it did settle quite a bit though; who knows.

So we have spice, not exactly cinnamon, but close, a liqueur-like aromatic effect, which I've not described well in terms of seeming most associated flavor, and there's more going on than that.  Sweetness and brightness doesn't match the other tea, but there is enough sweetness in this to balance the rest.  It definitely doesn't come across as savory, but I might still decide that's part of it.  I'll add more flavor list for both as I go.

DFMR #2:   intensity bumps way up; I brewed this for nearly 30 seconds related to typing during that time, longer than it needed.  It can be nice trying a tea strong to see it from a different angle.  These teas would be quite pleasant brewed light, medium, or strong, just shifting character depending on that brewing time.  To me "light" would be 10 seconds at a moderate proportion, and heavy is about this, 30 seconds or so.

Warm tones stand out a lot more, the cinnamon versus fresher and lighter dried fruit and citrus.  It might switch back brewed light in a next round.  Dried fruit range is close to dried apricot, with citrus folding in along with that, maybe tangerine peel zest.  It might taste less like cinnamon and more like warm mineral, but it's still quite clean, balanced, and refined.  For mouthfeel being this full, without significant astringency coming into play, the extra intensity relates to a heavier feel along your tongue.  Aftertaste is more pronounced too, brewed stronger, but it's kind of a medium intensity effect in a sense.  Or rather it's not necessarily strong, as sheng pu'er can be, at times stronger after you swallow than while tasting, but it does linger in duration.  It's quite pleasant.

Gui Fei:  this is a bit too strong; the extra intensity in it doesn't work as well with that long infusion time.  It's standard practice to use stronger infusions to sort out flaws, part of why the standard approach to black tea tasting in places like India and Sri Lanka, plantation taste testing, overbrews teas, in comparison with typical drinking preferences.  A bit of sourness stands out in this, made this way; I suppose that could be considered a flaw.  If it balances quite well with the rest brewed more conventionally then it's not much of one, but if it stays in the balance at a significant level then it is.  It's still good though; I'm not saying that.

The rest of the flavors are similar, but it seems as well to describe this more at an optimum, using a 15 second or so infusion time, and covering a more complete list next round.  It goes without saying that these are the kinds of teas you don't throw out the last of while tasting, rushing to get to the next round.  I typically don't, even for lower quality or less favorable teas, since I see it as disrespectful to the tea, but for this anyone would have the same reaction, and would drink the last drops.

DFMR #3:  this really shines, brewed appropriately.  Brighter citrus returns.  This does seem closer to a muscatel designation than ever, even if I can never be sure I'm using that term right.  It seems to correspond to a limited range of description of citrus tone, one that I explored quite a bit in drinking dozens of Darjeeling versions.  Still, it's hard to say.  Food flavors make it so easy because you try variations from time to time, and right there it is.

Brightness and lightness are pleasant in this.  Maybe that's a big part of the difference from this being designated as oolong.  In theory it should've also been exposed to less of a kneading / bruising step, I think, but then less might be more related to me guessing about processing.  I don't make tea.

Cinnamon isn't evolving away, dropping out, but fruit dominates the experience at this round, and place in the transition cycle.  It might be a little harder to place brewed lighter but the effect is still as intense.

Gui Fei:  it balances much better.  Either that sourness was either an effect of overbrewing the tea or it was the kind of flavor range that shows up early and drops out, as harsh edges can with sheng pu'er (if it has them).  It's quite pleasant.  Spice range is there but hard to isolate.  That could be some type of incense related spice instead of cinnamon, maybe sandalwood.  I think the fruit range is next, but again it's not framed in a distinct way, not easy to pin down.  It all integrates.  Roast / warm mineral tone input is there too, and mouthfeel corresponds to what one might expect of that, not really dry, but full in a different sense than the other, with the beginnings of what would seem like structure if it was stronger.

I think a bark spice might work as a decent interpretation, just not exactly cinnamon.  Many years ago I went on a decade or two long tisane exploration phase, and encountered other barks used as tisanes then, that span a really interesting and pleasant range.  I just can't remember any names of those, and certainly can't place an association with one.

DFMR #4:  this might be a good place to leave off, because this runs long.  I don't want to type 2000 words and readers wouldn't want to read that either.  I'll only mention transitions and close this.

It might be getting slightly better, picking up depth and balancing better, but that's about it for changes.  That's a great sign, because some other Thai OB I've tried can be pleasant, generally not quite this good, but tending to die early related to intensity, not making many good rounds.  If this is still improving rather than fading the infusion count cycle should run long enough.  Cinnamon and warmer tone stand out more this round; that's probably from me adding more time than last time, not from a transition change.

GF:  liqueur-like character is really pleasant in this, but then that's not new.  What I'm interpreting as either bark spice or incense spice--kind of repeating myself in that, since those incense spices probably are bark material based, or at least derived from aromatic woods--is as significant as before, and it makes this really stand out.  I can't imagine anyone being put off by that, but some may feel more connection with it than others, a closer match to preference.

It's interesting considering if the first really is more of a warm weather tea, for being brighter in tone and flavor, and if the second would be more suitable for drinking when it's cool out.  Maybe.  It's hot as could be now, where I am, maybe close to 90 F (around 30 C), and humid as well, since I'm in Bangkok.  Both are fine for me, but then it's a normal weather experience for me.  Maybe that's part of why I like relatively young sheng though, with a brighter character, and cooler / cooling effect.

I shouldn't be dabbling in Traditional Chinese Medicine related commentary either; I know almost nothing about that.

The teas have been great.  I'd highly recommend both.  I suppose that I liked the Dongfang Mei Ren white a little more, the opposite of what I'd expected.  It wasn't really that the second didn't meet my expectations, just that the first stood out more than I expected.  

Producers can make a version of Oriental Beauty with positive flavor range often enough, but the flavors expressing that degree of novelty, refinement, and intensity isn't typical.  Cinnamon and citrus flavors balancing like that is what seems to me to be a primary appeal of Oriental Beauty style teas.  

The intensity mentioned in the Tea Side description of the Gui Fei was nice.  As a sheng drinker oolongs can tend to be a little too soft and subtle, at times, with most white teas all the more so.  Both of these expressed good intensity, but the Gui Fei might have hit a little harder in the sense of covering deeper and heavier range, with the DFMR lighter and brighter.

Taiwanese oolongs from a visiting friend

 

I recently had a couple of friends visit our house to have some teas, a theme that doesn't come up very often.  One of them has been exploring teas living in Taiwan, a local Thai guy I met in a shop outing here in Bangkok, Gawin.  Gawin was even hosting ceremonial tea drinking sessions there, into different dimensions of the experience.  

first meeting Gawin in Ju Jen, a Bangkok shop in the Paradise Park mall

He passed on some "wild Tie Guan Yin" and what looks to be more oxidized rolled oolong, also called red oolong.  This is a well-known style among more experienced tea enthusiasts, but to me it doesn't get enough attention and credit among people newer to exploration.  It's a much more natural starting point, and type of tea that anyone can appreciate, than many other types of teas that tend to get talked about more.

This red oolong is identified as produced by the Buo-Ya Pavilion Natural Tea Company (on the packaging), sold by the Buo Ya tea shop in Taitung County.  Taitung Luya might be the branding name.

The wild TGY is identified (written on the sample pack) as from the Guide Tearoom, which is probably the business name for the ceremonial session business.  That also lists two Instagram contacts, TEATIANTIAN and JACK_DAILYTEA.  Those profiles are very aesthetic; I recommend checking them out.

Review:  

wild Tie Guan Yin:  this is not a rolled oolong style tea.  For sure Gavin mentioned that, and processing background, but things don't stick with me a lot of the time.  This could be white tea, since that's often how more simply dried versions are intended for type, but I'd guess they made oolong without doing that shaping step (the leaves show oxidation; they're darkened).  

We tried a tea that Gavin actually made, during his visit, but I'm guessing that this is a commercially produced tea, along the line of a small-batch artisan production theme.  I can ask and edit this to include that.

Of course the color of the brewed liquid is much lighter; red oolong is typically oxidized into a more conventional black tea range.  The flavor of this is nice.  It tastes a bit like Tie Guan Yin, as TGY would.  The tones are a bit warm; this has been oxidized a little more than the light style versions, which is suitable, an improvement.  It'll be interesting hearing about other processing, about a potential roast step.  This may not have been roasted; I'm out of practice for identifying how those two inputs map across to each other.  Or then again it probably was; there's a lot of caramel warmth and sweetness to this.  [later edit:  it was roasted, but not a lot, and not over charcoal].

A base flavor is floral, a common main aspect.  Then the warmth and caramel stand out next after that.  Mineral undertone isn't missing but it's not as pronounced as that can get.  We talked when Gavin visited about how some Taiwanese oolong high intensity of flavor might come from heavy fertilization, pushing into something like a new car smell, and this isn't unusually intense like that, but it has decent intensity, good complexity, and nice depth.  It's good.

red oolong:  tartness stands out most, right away.  I'm ok with black teas being tart, or in this case oolong oxidized to the point of essentially being a black tea, but it's not a favorite aspect range for me.  To me it's not really a flaw but it also isn't favorable.  It would be nice if that would fade quite a bit but it's usually not how that goes.  It's like black tea tasting like cacao, not like sheng exhibiting astringency edge that can fade; it's just part of that tea.

Savory range is interesting, like sun-dried tomato.  Sweetness level is pretty significant, or else those other two aspects wouldn't tie together well at all.  It's complex; there is more to it than these main notes.  Cacao and berry-like fruit might stand out beyond that, or rose-like floral range.  I gave this extra brewing time to get started, to open up, and it will be easier to identify flavors brewed lighter, since it's so intense.  It's also good, it just doesn't match to my personal preference as well as the other, mostly related to the tartness.  I don't see why someone else couldn't love that; it seems to just be an individual preference thing.

TGY 2:  the same as last round; not transitioning yet.  This is a little light; I brewed both quite fast, to see what that changed.  The other proportion is higher, even though it looked like very little tea at the bottom of the gaiwan.

Creaminess is nice in this.  Jin Xuan has a reputation for being creamy but of course other plant types can express that too, especially related style oolongs.  The rest of the flavor matches the last description still, rich, sweet, floral, with nice warm caramel tones, and some mineral undertone, just not a lot.

A hummingbird dropped by; that's nice.  Myra was here earlier, my favorite of the cats, since I'm tasting outside, where we met with Gawin and his friend.  Now also a squirrel and crow, with a songbird in the background; kind of busy out here.

red oolong:  it evolves to balance slightly better, or maybe works out well at such a light infusion strength.  At this high a proportion even a 10 second infusion isn't really light.  Fruit is nice in this.  It's complex; one part reminds me of cranberry, then also dried tamarind.  The flavor seems to cover floral range too, but that's well-integrated with the fruit.  

I'm often saying "wow, these teas are strong!" right around this point drinking sheng pu'er, and I can feel these two already, finishing a third and fourth small cup.  I just ate a heavy late breakfast too, oatmeal with goji berry and extra banana, and two fried eggs.  I'll push these a little further, and will probably keep this review short, not describing the transitions deep into a count, or even to a mid-point.  I'm late to call the kids, who finally arrive back for a Christmas break visit in one week, and that's a priority over everything else.

TGY #3:  this longer infusion was still probably 20 seconds or just under, not so long.  

A bird is talking to the squirrels, and that crow is going on, adding extra sounds beyond the caw, unless that's a conversation he's having.  It would be nice to know what they go on about.  Two other birds seem to have a nest in a different area; you can tell when they are warning someone off.

Warmth and depth really pick up in this.  It's still going to describe as warm caramel in summary, but it's stronger, and not the same.  

red oolong:  even a slight bump in infusion strength made that tartness shift from somewhat more balanced back to dominant.  I'll keep trying it light.  This is pleasant, the way those different parts come together, it's just a shame that I don't love tartness in oxidized tea range as much as most other possible flavors.

Fourth round, transitions:  the TGY is staying consistent.  That's nice, given how pleasant and complex it had been, with such nice depth.  

The red oolong might be evolving a little, trading out some of that tartness for the beginnings of a cinnamon note.  That's an improvement.  

I might also mention that it's normal for red oolong to be produced in a black tea range, as I said, but this is pretty far up the oxidation level scale.  It is really just a black tea at this point, perhaps borrowing from some oolong processing or other input range (the tea plant type, the rolled shape, and so on).  To me that's essentially a good thing, since somewhat hybrid forms can create something novel and pleasant in a new way, but I guess that part is a judgement call.

I really don't have additional conclusions this time; the teas were good, it was nice of Gawin to share those.  Of course I drank more rounds of them, and they stayed just as pleasant.

Baozhong comparison (Taiwanese oolongs), Lishan and Pinglin

 

A tea vendor friend recently visited Bangkok, Peter from Tea Mania, and he dropped off some samples to try (many thanks).  These are the first I've tried, Baozhong oolong, a light oolong style from Taiwan.

I've had great experiences with their teas in the past.  This was a main source I ordered teas from just a few years ago, but I've drifted on to trying and buying more local Thai and Vietnamese teas since.  Their earlier sheng pu'er versions were really nice; it will be particularly interesting trying some of those.  This oolong range I've tried some of but not that much in relation to other tea types; it should also be interesting.  In the past versions have been fresh, light, flavorful, and pleasant, novel in flavor aspect sets.

Ordinarily I'd cite the product listings to add more background but the site isn't pulling up just now, at least not to click through to the right page.  More information should be here, at some point.  There is another Baozhong sample with these that I didn't try yet; maybe I'll add a section about all three then, and talk through some background a little.  

It's interesting that one is 2021 and another 2022, and I didn't really go too far into what that limited aging input would've changed, not that I know.  It's often a habit to make things up and guess, but I didn't, beyond adding a couple of sentences at the very end.

I didn't comment on this nerd theme either; am I really a nerd?  I'm an engineer, and I take exploration of some subjects a bit far, and my personality is defined in some atypical ways, but I don't see much to gain from taking on a related label.  I suppose it would fit if I were into that.

Review:

Lishan #1:  fresh, sweet, and bright.  I'll need to be careful to give these longer steeps to compensate for using less, maybe 5 or 6 grams in these samples, but brewing a tea light the first round works for me.  This really is in between more conventional oolong and light and smooth green tea character, kind of as expected.  But it doesn't have the aggressive tone a lot of very light Tie Guan Yin can have, in the best cases straight floral, and then when not as positive maybe including sweet corn, or even new car smell.  This is floral, mostly, but there is a vegetal component to it, closer to sugar snap peas.  It's nice.

Pinglin:  this character overlaps a little but it's heavier, and different.  Floral tones are much deeper and heavier.  There's an aspect beyond the floral range that's hard to place as of yet, not unrelated to vegetal range, but not exactly that either.  It's aromatic and warm spice, I think, like incense spice, sandalwood or the like (I couldn't identify different incense spices, to be clear; my exposure has been very limited over the past 25 years).

Lishan #2:  being a bit stronger helps, although warming in tones is kind of neutral; the lightness and brightness of the first round was also pleasant.  Feel picks up.  Floral range fills in more depth, there is more of a broader set of floral tones, including some that are warmer.  The tea is still quite light, in comparison to other versions' range; I mean in comparison with the first round.  It's not exactly complex but there is enough going on to appreciate it.  

That one floral range that I associate with high mountain Taiwanese oolongs is present, a light floral scent.  In rolled oolongs that can be really intense, so that you might want to brew a tea lightly to offset it being a bit much, unless you really appreciate the rich feel and aftertaste parts more, then you'd just go for it.  Again this is pleasant.

Pinglin:  there's really something to the depth, complexity, and intensity of this.  Compared to the sheng versions I usually drink it's on the light side, in terms of feel and flavor impact, but there is a lot going on, more than in the other tea, I think.  Richer and warmer range makes it come across as more intense, although I suppose maybe it's just an illusion that it's more complex, tied to how I interpret a warmer and deeper flavor set.  Probably it's both though.

That one aspect I tried to describe might not be a spice input, as much as just an unusually strong and rich floral aspect, that stands out against a field of others.  It's like lavender, close enough that it works to call it that.  There is also a broad range of other lighter floral tones, and warm depth, some sort of base that's harder to separate out as specific flavors.  Often that would be underlying mineral range, but it's not so clear in this.  

It may really be a hint of a few things, underlying mineral, warmth tied to spice, and even some sort of vegetal note, which I'm not really pinning down.  Then for being so complex it's interesting how that one particular floral note is stronger than the rest, the lavender.  Not so much that it dominates the experience; in fact the opposite.  It's just stronger, so it sets up an unusual harmony, not really even a "foreground" effect, but just something standing out a little.

Lishan #3:  this transitioned some; somehow a fruit tone seems to be evolving.  Whenever that kind of thing happens it makes you wonder to what extent it had already been there, and you'd just missed it.  It tastes a good bit like yellow watermelon.  I suppose that it could taste exactly the same and it's just an association or new interpretation that I'm adding.  It seems a little more complex as a result.

Pinglin:  this may have just flattened out just a little, the opposite.  It seems possible that warm tone range is picking up slightly, while floral range fades, but it's a subtle shift.  Mineral seems more pronounced too, giving it just a little extra depth.  It comes across as a heavier range and stronger tea than the other.  Someone really into that one light floral note that's pronounced in Taiwanese oolongs might like the first better, pushing it harder than I have been to get intensity up.  I would imagine plenty of sheng drinkers could relate to the second better, for coming across as slightly more complex and intense, with the warmer tone range just depending on individual preference.

This seems like a good place to give these a longer soak and then leave off the notes, since I'd expect them to fade as much as to keep evolving from here.  I've been giving the half a minute infusion times, which is a lot longer than I use for a packed-out gaiwan proportion.  I'll only infuse them for a minute, nothing too crazy.

Lishan #4:  this really shines at this stage.  Intensity isn't so pronounced; soaking that for two minutes might have been even better.  It's fine for an experience though, strong enough.  There aren't really new descriptions to add.  Light and sweet floral tones are giving way to more depth of other range, with mineral picking up, and non-distinct vegetal range playing more of a role.  I could see this as including fruit but it's not as natural an interpretation this round.  Maybe that light vegetal input is close to fennel.

Pinglin:  fading, in a sense, but this still has plenty to offer.  It's possible that a 3 or 4 minute soak for both could be the best yet, although I would imaging trade-offs would enter in, and aspects that pick up wouldn't all be as positive as the first rounds' range.  

It's interesting how these are light in effect but also have a depth and odd kind of intensity to them; it's an interesting contradiction.  They're what I expected from minimal exposure to related types range in the past, among the least of any main tea types that I've tried.  Baozhong would be "main" in a limited sense; listing out the main half dozen types of oolong to me it may not make that list (Wuyi Yancha, Dan Cong, Tie Guan Yin, high mountain rolled Taiwanese versions, Oriental Beauty, then I'd go with "red oolong" as more standard, oxidized versions up near the black tea boundary).  That's even without dividing up types; more oxidized and roasted Tie Guan Yin is completely different than very light versions.

Lishan #5:  more vegetal range does pick up, brewing this for 2 1/2 to 3 minutes instead.  It's still pleasant, just not improved.

Pinglin:  that one floral note comes back stronger brewed longer; that is nice.  Vegetal range, mineral, and whatever else doesn't pick up much.  I suppose it regains more intensity and fullness, and that's it, nothing stands out as negative, or even pronounced.  

It's odd that I've not mentioned oxidation level.  It seemed as well to just focus on the tea experiences, since going on with guesses about causes wouldn't add much.  Sure, this may be oxidized a little more.  And it's from 2021 instead of 2022, but I'd expect that transition didn't include that much shift to warmer and deeper tones, although it should've been some.  I'd guess that it started out different, and then both might've changed in different ways over 2 to 3 years as well.

Probably one more long round will close out most of the positive range these have to offer, although who knows, maybe they'd keep going, or an extra cold brew from them could be good.  I'll leave off the notes here either way.

No extra conclusions this time; those descriptions seemed clear enough.

Pu'er storage and fermentation

A friend recently pointed out a 2013 Tea Chat tea forum discussion thread about how to store pu'er, not focused on typical humidity and temperature issues but instead whether or not to wrap the tea in such a way as to seal it.  It was surprising to me that this is even an issue, since the conventional take on wrapping pu'er or hei cha is so consistent, that it's typically not stored well-sealed, as every other tea type is.


The standard take is that pu'er needs some air contact (very minimal, but some) so storage in the paper wrapper is a given, maybe along with some other form of outer wrapping that also doesn't completely seal the tea.

I'll start with the two different takes expressed in that thread, and move onto what fermentation is as relevant background.  Then I'll close with a bit of feedback from a couple of sources that really know pu'er (always relative that, but seemingly relatively so).  Lots of people have lots of experience with pu'er, and a discussion forum like Tea Chat is a great way to be exposed to some informed takes.  Of course the standard discussion is about ideal storage humidity levels, quite closely related, as in this other more recent Tea Chat discussion.

Tea Chat discussion; to seal or not to seal pu'er for storage  

Not everyone might see this as an open question, but it was raised as such, and brought up some interesting points and discussion in that earlier Tea Chat tea forum discussion.

Initial starting point comment:  This is one of the reasons many people put their cakes into sealed plastic bags to preserve aroma and flavor. Exposure to air will deteriorate this just like with any other tea. It makes sense.

Response:  A lot of people (like Marshal N) believe that doing this stops or severely limits the aging process

Of course that "Marshal N" is a reference to A Tea Addict's Journal blog author, one of the classic tea blogs, still active now.  Others responded that pu'er needs both humidity and oxygen contact to ferment, and later Marshal N himself clarified that further in the discussion:

I don't think constant airflow is the answer. In fact, my storage has very little airflow. I don't believe in sealing the tea, at least not when they're young (when we have 20 years old cakes it's a different problem) but I think airflow is bad.

I store my tea in a cupboard with doors. I only open it when I need something from it. It's not like a fridge door or anything - it will allow a minimal amount of air to circulate, but that's it. In a place like Hong Kong a tight seal runs a very high risk of mold.

And then later, more specific to the point related to sealing:

The point of storing puerh is so that it will change. If your object is to maintain the tea as it is now, then yes, by all means, seal them up, vacuum them, put them in black boxes. But that's not what puerh is - puerh is an aged tea. Those wonderful 50 years old red labels out there? They were, for the most part, not put in plastic bags and sealed up all these years, and they're still wonderful now because the base tea was good and they were stored well. 

...I'm not at all suggesting you should put tea on an open shelf and under the sun - I am saying they don't need to live in plastic bags. ...thousands of drinkers in HK and Taiwan don't seal their tea up when they buy them. They leave them out naturally and let them age. 

That's really the gist of it.  On the one side sealing up pu'er makes sense related to common sense related to storage of anything else, and to the idea that air contact would diminish tea flavors through evaporating off components that cause flavors (that nice smell of tea being stored is molecules you wouldn't get to taste drifting into open air).  The other take is that conventional wisdom demands that pu'er requires minimal air contact to ferment as it ages (not exactly requiring airflow, but not sealed).  A notable justification for the latter is that this is long-standard practice, with a history of effectiveness.  Marshal N says more in his post on pu'er storage, with the same discussion about sealing tea playing out in the comments.  Of course this is all mostly geared towards concerns about aging and fermenting sheng pu'er, not as clear in relation to shou, which does more fermenting during production, speeded up by wet piling processing (for which the question might be if it's most fermentation occurring initially, or all).

Which is right?  The easy way to settle this is to go and buy two each of a number of cakes and store both separately, one of each kind sealed, the other not, and wait a number of years.  Of course results might vary by other factors, temperature and humidity, or by how often the cakes were taken out to sample some, or if they weren't at all.  Cwyn (author of Death by Tea, a funny and informative tea blog) cited an example of someone doing just that in one comment:


One of my tea friends specifically stored three samples of the same tea over a two year period, one in plastic, one in a pumidor [ed. tea version of humidor], and one with no storage (open air). Then he sent unmarked, blind samples of all three to several of us. We all picked the pumidor stored as the best one. The plastic sample in particular was the worst, in my opinion. 


Of course that would seem to depend on his local environment, and it seems possible results could vary by different factors.  Let's check some references about what fermentation is first, and move on to more informed input about these issues after that.

pu'er warehouse storage (photo credit, Seven Cups site)

Storing pu'er, fermentation:  research input

The standard-practice bias will make this harder to evaluate.  It would be possible to find sources advocating sealing pu'er for storage (a comment in that discussion mentioned the Hojo vendor advocates this) but more others will go with what they know, the other more standard approach.  A vote, the count of approach endorsed per reference, might not be a great indicator of likely accuracy.  All the same lets start with Hojo's input:

It is said that a pu-erh tea should be fermented in the original paper wrapping and stored in an open space. However, this method is not practical in most of our living environment. This traditional storage method only works in Yunnan or any place where it is located at an equivalently high altitude, as the weather in Yunnan is very dry with low humidity.

From the food scientific point of view, any kind of tea must be kept under low humidity. In fact, we highly recommend keeping pu-erh tea in a tightly sealed aluminum bag where the oxygen is trapped inside the bag providing sufficient condition to mediate further maturation compared to those that are kept in open space. Moreover, there is another way to create a unique maturation method for pu-erh by storing the raw pu-erh in a vacuum-sealed bag even though most people may think this storage method is ridiculous. 

Interesting that they squarely address going against conventional wisdom with those recommendations, clarifying that most people wouldn't agree.

A wiki-theme tea site or blogger research isn't likely to help out much, since those would either repeat one or more opinions or cover a bit of range in general research.  For example, the TeaDB post on pu'er storage does that, citing conventional wisdom and mentioning this Hojo post.  I'm not really intending a citation as a final starting point reference, but I'll also mention their input on humidity.  This is likely taken directly from Marshal N's "Tea Addict's Journal" posts, as mentioned by them in crediting him as a primary reference:


This storage method [traditional or wet storage] is usually associated with Hong Kong. Traditional storage involves packing a ton of tea, usually by the jian (42 cakes) into a warehouse. The tea will initially be put into a ground storage unit. These storage units will be intentionally (but not artificially) high in humidity and temperature. These conditions result in the quick aging of the tea. After some time has passed, the tea is moved to a drier storage location... 

The proper idea of humidity and temperature for dry storage will vary, usually falling somewhere between 60-70 relative humidity and 60-70 F. Drier stored teas will age more slowly and are a much longer-term game plan for those that engage it.


It makes you wonder what the relative humidity is in Hong Kong, doesn't it, since 70% sounds like a good bit (from Wikipedia):

Climate data for Hong Kong (Hong Kong Observatory), normals 1981–2010, extremes 1884–1939 and 1947–present
Month	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Year

Average relative humidity(%)	74	80	82	83	83	82	81	81	78	73	71	69	78.0

70% and up; that is humid.  I won't be able to track down the reference but cycling between more and less humidity over time has been cited as a good thing, for the tea to sort of breathe.  That's also probably from Marshal N; I read a lot of his posts while writing this.

It makes me wonder about humidity where I live, Bangkok, since it often feels a bit humid here:

Yep, humid.  For better or worse it really doesn't ever ease up much.

Related to what fermentation really is, and how much air contact is required, most references don't get far.  They tend to focus more on wet versus dry storage definition and basics.  That Tea DB post does mention that Hojo is in the minority for advocating sealed storage, but then Hojo had said that too, and repeat that some claim sealing a tea will stop a tea from naturally aging.

Beyond blogs there are a few decently researched tea information sites out there, with one of those, the World of Tea, weighing in on pu'er storage factors:

Non-Hermetic Seal Aging:  Puer (and other post-fermented teas) are not typically shielded from moisture, rather a controlled level of moisture is employed to influence the aging during storage. In this case, over time, the tea leaves undergo a combination of fermentation AND oxidation. In fact, when maocha is fixed, it is often done so at a lower temperature so that the oxidative enzymes within the leaves are not fully denatured, clearly allowing for further oxidation.

This certainly seems to represent a suggestion not to seal pu'er teas for storage, related to allowing for contact with limited moisture, but it's not so clear if ziplock bag storage of teas that are opened from time to time violates this.  It's not clear from that what other factors come into play, but moisture is represented as the primary factor.  A distinction between oxidation and fermentation is interesting.

Maybe it could help to dig into what fermentation really is.  An interesting reference turned up in a search, a study of components found in types of pu'er, with some insight to what activity related to that:

One of our major findings is that fungal α-diversity is higher in fresh tea leaves than in Pu-erh and that bacterial α-diversity shows the opposite trend, that is, lower in fresh leaves than in Pu-erh...  An interesting finding is that the most sought-after tea, aged raw Pu-erh, has a fungal community more like ripened than young raw Pu-erh, and a similar trend was seen for the bacterial community (Fig 3). This result indicates that the accelerated microbial fermentation of ripened Pu-erh, encouraged by the addition of water and the warmth generated by microbial fermentation, results in a microbial community composition similar to that found in much older, raw Pu-erh. It also provides an ecological explanation for the rapid acceptance and widespread use of the ripened Pu-erh process.

Clear, right?  The rest of the article on methodology and detailed findings really does get a bit technical.  As I'm reading that they're saying both aged sheng pu'er and shou pu'er exhibit similar types of bacteria and fungus growth (which is a good thing, more or less).  There's nothing on storage, obviously, so no extension to what conditions support that.  One read of what that just said, "encouraged by the addition of water" might indicate wet storage supports fermentation but it doesn't seem possible to extend that statement to concerns about specific relative humidity conditions, to what is optimum or too much.

Their conclusion is interesting, especially where it leaves off related to a recommendation:

Next generation sequencing revealed high fungal and bacterial diversity in Pu-erh tea. Fungal diversity drops and bacterial diversity rises as a result of raw or ripened fermentation. The composition of microbial communities changes significantly among fresh leaves, raw and ripened Pu-erh with the aged raw tea having similar community to ripened tea. Age of tea is identified as a significant variable affecting microbial community of raw tea, but not of ripened tea. Multiple mycotoxins were detected from either or both categories of Pu-erh, but all but patulin and asperglaucide were under the safety limit. For safe drinking, we recommend discarding the first brew.

So much for drinking the rinse.  The rest of that part on mycotoxins was interesting, if a bit hard to follow.  

Clicking around for input on risks I found this WebMD reference to pu'er effects (positive in this case):

There is interest in using pu-erh tea for lowering cholesterol because, unlike other teas, it contains small amounts of a chemical called lovastatin. Lovastatin is a prescription medicine used for lowering cholesterol. Investigators think that bacteria that sometimes contaminate pu-erh tea may somehow make the lovastatin in the course of their normal life cycle. Animal research suggests that pu-erh tea might lower certain blood fats called triglycerides as well as total and “bad” low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol. It might also raise “good” high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol.

And I was just explaining to someone that essentially all tea bloggers are very skeptical of all health claims related to teas.  I'll stay a little skeptical but it sounds better than the other earlier content on mycotoxins, which can't be good.

Expert input on pu'er storage (well informed input, anyway)

I asked a few people that would have informed opinions on this, with some of that cited here.  I'll start with a local tea friend, a tea drinker that lives in Bangkok and stores pu'er here.  He makes no claims related to being an expert, but he does have significant first hand experience.


I keep all my cakes in ziplok bags. Some use vacuum sealing (like Hojo). For me, the exposure to air can increase the oxidation level, which diminishes flavor and aroma. Fermentation is another matter. According to Hojo, when the cake is pressed, the fermentation process is already under way. By keeping the cake enclosed or vacuum sealed, there is still enough moisture to keep the fermentation process going.

The main point is about humidity and aging. With high humidity, there can develop a wetness that will make the cakes taste and smell musty. The HK Chinese like probiotic :-) foods that stink. So do the Taiwanese. One could say it's a developed taste. Personally, I don't like it. Maybe the cakes age faster exposed to high humidity without ziplocking. I'm happy with the cakes I have and how they are progressing. I've tasted teas from Wistaria Tea House in Taiwan and didn't like them. I would never buy these musty cakes. But, now we get into taste and what you are taught to like. Who is to say what is right? As long as your cakes are not developing mold, they should be safe. 


Interesting, right?  Issues of personal preference and local climate fold into all that, tying together a lot of the previous ideas.  I'm still curious about how much oxygen content is necessary for a pu'er to age, and how humidity really does relate, but some reading up and discussion will only go so far.

or you could just leave it lay around (credit Tea and Mountain Journals)

Another online friend strikes me as more of an expert reference, not in terms of public record background credentials, but related to regularly passing on input that others have referred to as "encyclopedic."  Of course I'd need to extrapolate a lot from what little I do know to evaluate the relative value of the input, but as far as that indicates anything he's someone to listen to.  It might seem odd accepting ideas from a source without even an online nickname to go on (which is all that is accessible anyway); take that part as you will.


1) Completely sealing the bag limits microbrial processes to anaerobic stuff. That can mean some fruitiness, and it can also mean sourness, depending on the metabolic pathways of our micro friends.

2) Loose package sealing is nice to reduce the loss of volatiles, not really for better aging process.

3) Stagnant humidity promotes way too much activity, leading to toxic accumulation of molds.

4) Puerh does oxidize, but the processes involved in making puerh is meant to reduce such things. Small leaf puerh tends to be more prone to oxidizing to black tea. Browning is fermentation from microbes, like what see in cheese.


And this seems more or less off the top of the head input; he really should write a book about tea.  Mind you he isn't even someone I've spoke to much, just one more person I bother with questions, who is kind enough to humor them.

That last point has lots of room for following up--I'm not so clear on how oxidation and browning vary by input--but this is running long as it is.  I won't really get into all that's covered in those points, most of which are clear on their own.  The first point seems most interesting, delving a little into the variable introduced in that academic journal article, extending it to potential flavors changes.

I discussed the subject a little with Cwyn by message, that other blogger I'd mentioned, and she said this:


For storing sheng in sealed plastic, Hojo is the primary proponent of this method of storage. It works only in humid climates, the idea is to seal out the outside air and prevent the tea from too wet storage. Sealed plastic still leaches air. In dry climates, the tea will actually just dry out slowly and fade. I have one cake preserved this way, mainly because the cake has a large intact leaf across the top. Makes a good demonstration cake that people can hold in their hands without affecting the tea. Otherwise, sealed plastic is not an effective method for my dry household climate. If your climate is humid, it is worth considering.



So sealing the tea really may be a great alternative for pu'er storage in Bangkok, which is humid, depending on preference for fermentation and other results.  Or maybe sealing those teas, even in looser ziplock storage bag format, does all but stop fermentation, to an extent that per most individual preference sealing the pu'er would be an unacceptable solution.  Personal preference related to all the variables is a difficult aspect to fully factor in.

Altogether all those ideas did all fall together better than I'd expected.  The inputs settled into one clear running theme of people saying similar things and arriving at different conclusions that weren't quite as clearly contradictory as they seemed at first.