2016 Kokang Myanmar sheng and 2011 Mingdee Thai sheng

the Kokang version left, Mingdee right (in all photos)

In visiting a local tea shop a couple of weeks ago, Ju Jen in the Paradise Park mall, a tea contact I was there to meet shared a few teas with me, including these.  One is a 2016 Kokang Myanmar sheng, and the other a 2011 Mingdee Thai sheng.  I have two other versions of Kokang sheng around, part of one cake (2018, that was) and two small older cakes (I think from the same producer).  

Kokang is both an area in Myanmar and a producer name, if I've got that right.  The category name of pu'er doesn't necessarily apply to these, being from Myanmar and Thailand, but they're the same type of tea, made from the same general type of plants, related Assamica versions.  

Mingdee, the producer, rings a bell but I may have never tried any version from them.  I think them and Wawee Tea might be the two main producers, but the subject of Thai sheng keeps such a low profile it's hard to be sure.

that shop visit

Review:

2016 Kokang Myanmar sheng:  it's pleasant.  It has picked up good warmth and depth in the last 7 years, for sure.  The brighter floral notes are transitioned away but there is plenty to appreciate; complexity and balance are good.  It seems as well to turn that into more of a list on the second round.  Bitterness is non-existent but it will probably kick in more next round.

2011 Thai (Chiang Rai / Wawee) Mingdee:  generally pleasant but this may be right in the in-between age transition place where teas tend to go a bit quiet.  Pushing it later may help a little, but if it's at a point where former compound profile is half transitioned to different forms that may only go so far.  Again checking on a list of aspect will probably go better next round.

Kokang, #2:  nice!  This range is familiar.  Sweetness is good, and mineral base (in between light and warm, or maybe spanning both), with an earlier floral range (likely prominent earlier) now shifted to warmer tones, cedar wood, spice range, maybe a touch of warm dried fruit.  Whether or not this is a relatively optimum aging level for drinking this could vary by preference.  

The vendor sales page for the other Myanmar sheng I own (one of 3 versions) described it indirectly as good but not great, along the lines of typical for tea material like this.  That was from Chawang Shop.  Maybe this had slightly more complexity, intensity, and aging potential, so the other could be a little more faded at this point.  It would've made more sense to compare this tea with that but I really wanted to try both of these, and I have a few other teas around to get to.

Mingdee:  it's not bitterness that's ramping up but depth and mineral base really is.  This is clean and complex, just not overly intense.  I think it has great potential to age into a more subtle aged range, not the kind of tea that's still undrinkable after 12 years, but one that can finish transitioning in a few more, picking up more complexity in a different range.  

Mineral depth is unusual in this, for being so heavy and warm in tone, and for dominating the rest of the flavor profile.  I think that's partly an effect from the other flavors still shifting from younger to older form, so it seems quiet, because there is a broad range there, but all at a subtle level.  As younger and brighter tones finish dropping out the deeper and warmer ones will be more evident.  It might turn out like aged Yiwu sometimes does though, on the subtle side.  Those can go further into flavorless, if not well-suited for aging, but some might just be subtle, or I suppose others yet more intense as aged sheng than I've experienced.  I might have only ever tried a half dozen relatively fully aged Yiwu versions, so that sampling is too limited for broad generalizations.

Given that I'm reviewing 7 and 12 year old sheng versions the timing for this evaluation is a little off optimum; these would tell a more complete story in 5 more years.  Those small 2006 Kokang mini cakes, are surely not ready even for being 17 years old, so I've not been re-trying them yet.  That style seemed suitable for 25 years of aging, given how the hard pressed form will slow transition pace.  I'll still try one over the next few years but it won't be ready yet.

Kokang, #3:  there is definitely a very catchy flavor aspect that's common in Myanmar sheng, that I've not described here yet, and probably not done justice to pinning down elsewhere either.  In a younger version one would naturally see it as floral + light mineral, but there's a little more to it.  It might be a spice range sort of flavor, along the line of bay leaf.  I've used bay leaves in cooking but not very often, so that's partly a guess, which conveys some general range.

Mingdee:  this is still quite subtle but it's evolving in a positive way.  Heavy mineral is still present but other range is balancing with that more now.  It's more in an aged furniture range, a mix of aromatic wood tones and non-distinct aromatic oils.  A bit of cedar wood dryness and edge joins that, but it's not dry in feel, it just has a dry component.  Texture / feel will keep shifting over the next half-dozen years too.

Kokang #4:  this keeps improving; that's always nice.  Depth and the way it integrates gets better and better.  That one hint of harder to define aspect seems to have a shifted to include a touch of lemon; it balances well with the rest.  It doesn't have the richest feel, or much aftertaste at all, but the feel it does express is positive.  There are no flaws, and the balance works; it's hard to place how those enter in as positive inputs.

Mingdee:  maybe fading just a little, although that probably relates to variations in infusion time, which I don't track closely.  There is nothing new to add.  I have a couple of things to do so I'll try one more infusion and quit the notes, even though these aren't quite halfway finished yet.  I'll steep a little longer so I'm not commenting that this is hard to place, which will probably shift results a little again.

Kokang #5:  this is quite pleasant.  That touch of citrus (lemon), light spice background, nice mineral base, mix of warmer and lighter tones all integrates really well.  It could easily seem disjointed or at an awkward phase instead; maybe in another 2 or 3 years it will be like that.  I'm not sure this has great aging potential, to be honest.  Intensity is fine at this stage but as it swaps lighter for heavier range that may fade, and it's not that intense now, for a 7 year old sheng.  

I might prefer to drink this particular tea aged 3 or 4 years, back when it hit a little harder, and retained more younger notes, but had lost a lot of it's more youthful challenging rough edges.  It's good now though, I just don't know if it would be better or worse in 7 more years.  There's a good chance it will fade (just a guess, of course).

Mingdee:  more or less the same as it had been, mixing the same aspects described in earlier rounds, with proportion and overall effect not changing too much.  At least this is really clean in effect; there are no flaws from storage inputs or original negative character.  Limitations only seem to relate to what wasn't present initially, to the potential it had for aging.  

I think this would be quite good in 5 or 6 more years, but that's only if someone likes subtle aged sheng, versions where intensity is quite low, and rich feel carries the weight of a lot of what you experience.  The warm flavor tones and mineral base won't completely drop out but with this being limited in intensity as a 12 year old tea I'd expect it to be on the subtle side as an 18 year old version.  Which is ok, if someone is really on that page.  

It's more natural for me to prefer versions with lots more intensity that need a little more time to complete transition.  Those sorts of "challenging when young" versions, that aren't quite there at 18 years old, develop great depth, good balance, complexity, and really interesting flavors, but only at closer to 25 years old.

For drinking at this stage it's still pleasant.  That touch of dryness doesn't come across as overly negative, and the flavor balance isn't bad.  It not being optimum relates to an imagined potential, not a real experiential gap, beyond what isn't in the cup right now.

Myra visits while I do the tasting

Conclusions:

It was interesting trying two very different tea versions, again.  It's interesting how the much younger one worked better in the current aspects balance than the older version, per my preference.  There is a common perception related to sheng pu'er that older is better.  To me every version has an optimum transition level, but that can only be defined in relation to someone's individual preference. 

For focusing mainly on aspects and only doing tangents on aging potential and likely earlier changes it seems like I've not fully addressed how much I like these.  This style of Myanmar tea, and the distinctive aspects that seem tied to there, I really do like.  Familiarity alone might make it more pleasant, and it fits in with what I've been drinking most and liking more recently.  I drank half a small cake of that one related Myanmar tea about a year ago, a tea I took to Honolulu to drink regularly there.  It's not tied back to the same producer, but very similar in character. 

The other might seem somewhat related to all the Thai sheng I've been drinking, but the style was probably different to start, and I'm not regularly drinking any from a 12 year old age range.  To me this probably isn't a completely ideal tea for long term aging, but then it probably wasn't in a very approachable when young style either, more in the middle.  That doesn't make it bad, but it loses a little.  

It may be at its best aged in the 16 to 18 year range, or at least relatively already peaked then, perhaps better yet at 25 to 30 years old, but also not so different.  If this had spent more time in Bangkok it might be more fermented (transitioned) now, but to be clear I don't know where it stayed.  It doesn't seem like it started as a very challenging version, so maybe not completely unlike the ones I drink now, or it would still have more for rough edges, beyond a bit of extra dryness.  The North is still tropical but not as consistently hot and humid as here; not even close.

Both were pleasant and interesting to try.  Both are much appreciated; it's nice having a local friend who shares teas like these.

another small shop in Bangkok, off Soi 6 in Yaowarat (Chinatown), not related to this post

the market alley it's in

Trying out a 7 day fast, settling for 5 days

 

I'd meant to fast again before Eye and the kids come back for Christmas, and weighing 2 kg more than normal when I last checked that encouraged me to try longer.  I thought that I might have been able to stabilize my weight back a bit lower, 72 or 73 kg instead of the normal 74, if I return to a lighter diet the first week.  I haven't weighed myself in the past 7 days (there is no scale at the house); I'll never know how it changed.

It didn't work, adding two extra days.  Nothing too unusual came up, but I think I didn't get electrolyte supplementation right, which I'll say more about here.  I started not feeling well 4 days in, then worse on day 5, and quit.

Again it was about potential health benefits, more than losing weight.  I just saw a news story about Dana White, the UFC (fighting) president claiming fasting reduces cancer risk by 70%.  I'm not sure about that but it may reduce risk.  There's a chance that I'm experiencing reduced aging effects related to fasting for 26 days in the last year (30 after this, really in just over 12 months).  My hair seems to be less grey, down from Keo counting 8 hairs to seemingly even less, and I may be gaining hair back in a pronounced bald spot.  The aesthetics makes no difference to me but related to general better health that would be relevant.

I had been using an easy, familiar cycle of fasting Thursday to Monday, related to the first day being easy, and that only including Friday as a work-day where I'm a bit hungry.  Days 4 and 5 were always easy.  I planned a whole work-week a bit off this time, M to F, then to see how days 6 and 7 go on the weekend.  Day by day notes tell the story.

Day 1:  almost no hunger this time, but mental clarity was a bit off.  In the evening I walked 45 minutes to go get the cats special food they're now hooked on, with the oldest basically living on fish, and ran 40 minutes as well, a 4+ mile route at the usual 6 minutes per km.  It's odd mixing those two units; my phone app is on km, and it seemed like most readers might relate to "freedom units."

The theory was to spend out glycogen reserves, so instead of doing the ketosis transition between day 2 and 3 to get that over with on day 2.  Oddly running feels about the same, with or without eating; my "metabolic flexibility" is pretty good.  That's true for days into fasting now too.

Day 2:  again not much for hunger, although the general off feeling started in.  I tried out drinking an aged sheng to see if that would work (a 19 year old version), related to someone commenting about that specific tea I also owned online.  It's not like drinking young sheng, which would be painful on an empty stomach, but it's not a good idea.  I'll stick to shu pu'er and aged white, maybe adding a roasted Wuyi Yancha when I want to mix it up, but that's pushing it too.

People discussing fasting mention an experience of greater mental clarity; I don't get that.  Usually by day 4 I'm back to normal, maybe even slightly clearer, but for me days 1 to 3 are a bit off.  On day 2 that relates to hunger, and on day 3 typically energy level fluctuation.

I'll see if that plan to rush the energy source change-over shifts more issues from day 3 to day 2 and tomorrow I'm fine.  I'm not hungry at all today; it's strange.  If I see food it sounds ok but it's not like before, when I would crave it.  I didn't hide anything from myself, so I'm walking past peanuts and raisins, and see yogurt in the refrigerator, where I keep the cup I drink water from.

I did a bit of laundry; my energy level isn't too far off.  Even if I feel somewhat normal I want take it easy for a few days to get the most out of the extra rest.

Day 3:  That energy level disruption really did seem to kick in yesterday, and I'm not back to normal early today either.  Hunger hasn't been bad at all; I don't think about not eating much.  I think that if I can stay a bit busy today and tomorrow I'll notice it less, and then it should just seem normal, probably shifting to less impactful tomorrow.  

I've drank tisanes twice already, more than I typically do for the 5 days, mixing some chrysanthemum into a late round of the shu I had with breakfast on the first day, then drinking some mixed gooseberry, lemongrass, and monkfruit seed tisane yesterday evening.  I wrote these notes before I got to it but I drank rosemary brewed as a tisane later in day 3.

Mentally the idea of fasting for an entire week, including an entire work-week, feels a little more daunting.  That time-span includes the US Thanksgiving--tomorrow--but I probably wasn't going to observe that anyway, living alone, with less access to turkey to make it myself, living in Bangkok where it's a normal work-day.  Maybe I'll do some sort of make-up meal next week.

Day 4:  the end of day 3 was a bit rough yesterday, and today I feel much better.  I went to work on-site, which is slightly more demanding, doing a commute, then being there in-person, and walking by quite a bit of food.  It's funny how your sense of smell for food increases so much when you are fasting; I swear that I could smell the neighbors eating McDonald's yesterday.  In prior fasts the smell of most foods wasn't as bad as food versions that I ended up craving, but I'm feeling the gap now, and seeing or smelling any food reminds me of the fasting status.  I suppose that's still an improvement, that I don't think of it unless something reminds me.

It's Thanksgiving today, back in the US.  I told two Thai co-workers that and they had no idea what that means.  You can try to find turkey dinners but you won't just walk by a place serving that, so it's not something anyone would notice.  For living alone now I wasn't going to try to cook all that anyway.  It was a little extreme just drinking salt water instead of eating anything.

I'm sick of the salt water.  Even for closing in on 30 days of fasting, in just over a year, that only ever seems so natural, and I keep adjusting how much I drink in relation to plain water, or the timing, or to an extent even the dosage.  Per a r/fasting Reddit sub reference you should be ingesting something like 3 grams of both sodium chloride and potassium chloride, which is a lot.  There's no way to know if that's way too much or the right amount.  It's impossible to know how fasting changes normal daily intake requirements for electrolytes.  Per some references being in ketosis increases sodium demands, which are ordinarily around 1500 mg per day, so going up to 2 or 3 grams might make sense.

I'm not feeling mental pressure about the fast, too much, but the extended planned time does seem to add extra weight.  At least hunger isn't so bad, or energy and mental clarity, which is all normal for day 4.  I don't feel close to energetic enough to go for a run.

Day 5:  I feel fine as of the morning; energy level might be a little lower than usual but otherwise quite normal.  Hunger experience isn't an issue at all; all that seems to drop off after day 3, unless you go to where food is, like I did yesterday.  I visited a mall to pick up protein powder for later and walked by lots of grilled foods, ice cream, bakeries, Thai snacks, Japanese restaurants; on and on.  It wasn't so bad but it does trigger extra hunger.

The 5 day routine had felt really normalized, by the 4th time doing it.  This doesn't.  Oddly electrolyte replacement doesn't go as well as the last two trials.  A slightly increased amount seemed like way too much two days ago, as if I couldn't keep up with water input, and I've had trouble getting a balance back.  I'm not certain that the Reddit fasting sub's recommendation page for inputs isn't too high; they recommend about 3 grams each of sodium and potassium, at the middle of the range they specify.  

Maybe you really do need a ton of salts to continue with ketosis energy processing, or maybe not nearly that much.  Drinking a lot of water is probably a good thing, to help your body sort out whatever conditions you put it through, but I couldn't seem to get thirst and indirect effect of drinking salt water to balance.  I cut it back to less than usual yesterday (well under 3 grams of each, closer to 2) and that might be an ok maintenance level.  Magnesium is easier; I take two tablets / capsules of 400 mg per day, since only taking one seems to result in negative effects, mostly sleep disruption.

Day 5 update (evening):  I wasn't feeling well and ended the fast.  A mild sore throat yesterday continued on to today, and energy level issues got worse throughout the day.  Something seemed off related to electrolyte intake; it was getting harder and harder to force myself to drink any of that salt-water mix, even though I went lighter on it yesterday, and only made it through half of a pre-measured amount in the evening today.  

I tried going out for a walk after work, and that went ok, so it wasn't energy availability that was an issue, just feeling a bit off.  More than seemed appropriate, I guess; someone should feel unusual after not eating for 5 days, but since this was a 5th time doing that the range is somewhat familiar.

I'll cover what I think happened in conclusions, but maybe I'll never really know.  It feels a little disappointing quitting early, but 5 days is a lot, and with things seemingly going worse and worse the next two days were likely to just be enduring more and more.

Conclusions:

I think a main problem related to electrolyte input variations.  This part is a little awkward to share, me getting that wrong, but communicating about the experiences doesn't work with covering all of it.

Before I was sort of carefully measuring out relatively specific amounts of sodium and potassium based on recommendations from that Reddit fasting sub I keep mentioning, making a mix with water to drink periodically throughout the day.  I don't remember exactly where I tried to be in that recommended range every time in the past; somewhere in the middle, not on the low or high side, but I was probably varying it some since I didn't log it, or any such thing.

In the past I was "measuring" teaspoon amounts using a non-standard measuring spoon, since I've been doing these fasts when my wife is in Honolulu, planning them around that, and I didn't think we had measuring spoons.  We don't bake; they don't in Thailand, and we've only ever had a toaster oven, and that's the only time you tend to use those.  I found where she kept them though, and I think earlier estimates of amounts were lower than measured amounts.  I was going for between 2.5 gram and 3 grams of both sodium and potassium per day, at the lower end of what that reference recommended.

Still sounds like a lot, doesn't it?  It seems that 1.5 grams of sodium is standard for a normal diet, and then ketosis adds extra requirements (maybe; so it seems).  Standard daily requirement for potassium is either 3.6 grams or 4.7, depending on the reference you use.  Surely no one is getting anywhere near that from a typical diet; on the high side that's eating a dozen bananas.  No need to go too far with details here but it's clear from several experiences that if you ingest a lot of sodium and potassium at one time that will have a laxative effect, not only the magnesium input, which is better known.  It's counterintuitive that your digestive system would contain enough for a laxative to work 2 or 3 days after eating, but it does, I guess an odd mix of bile, stomach acid, and whatever other digestive fluids.

It seemed like I ingested more salts than I tolerated well in the middle of that week, and couldn't get back to an equilibrium.  I had been drinking tisanes in the evenings the first couple of days, and adding quite a bit of extra water intake may have made a difference.  I drank plenty of plain water with the salt water, again not measuring total daily intake though, but at some point it seemed to not balance, and I developed an aversion to the taste of it, beyond it normally seeming gross.

Shifting to attempt 7 days made a lot more difference than I expected.  Mentally it seemed a lot harder; days 2 or 3 just weren't that close to it all coming to an end, not halfway through yet.  Fasting for one whole work-week is a lot.  It was much easier doing Thursday and Friday before, then during a weekend, with the first day not impacted at all.  Hunger wasn't an issue, and energy level and mental clarity really weren't problematic either, so it wasn't really so bad for work output disruption, but it adds a limited extra degree of mental stress.

Related to the electrolytes the first and last day of a fast matter less, because you carry over a decent balance on day 1, and plan to get that from food in a meal at the end of the day the last, so for a 5 day span it needs to balance well for only 3 days.  I suppose that's why I probably had moved from the lower side of that recommended range to their recommended middle, to not accidentally fall behind (that was their lower limit threshold; I mean before I stayed in the "minimal" range).  I had ran a couple of times during the last fast, which would reduce salts in your body a lot, along with the hotter weather then drawing them out.

I wanted to have the experience of a longer fast version, a week, as a reference for the broader understanding of the process, but I might just stick to 5 days and call it good, probably not trying it again until next year anyway.

Buddhist teachings in relation to white lies

 

An interesting subject came up recently, whether it's ok to tell white lies in relation to Buddhist precepts or teachings in relation to being truthful.  It seems like that would depend on interpretation, wouldn't it, with lots of context required for which branch or school one is referring to, and the situation?  

Just as Christian teachings and end-point positions on specifics can vary a lot depending on context, the frame of reference (how teachings are taken in a specific group), and per individual it all can vary a lot within Buddhism.  The general question seems to reduce to whether or not Buddhist teachings would tend to be more literal.  Prior to that one might question if the application of Buddhist teachings is all one thing, somewhat uniform across different schools, or even prior to that if all branches and schools are working from the same set of core teachings.  

They're not the same.  The Pali Canon is an older collected set of core teachings, taken up by the Theravada tradition (a broad branch of individual schools, not one unified thing), which to some extent would apply to the other later forms, the other two main broad branches and schools (Mahayana and Vajrayana).  I have pretty deep background in all that related to a good bit of personal study and academic review, getting two degrees in religion and philosophy, after my initial degree in Industrial Engineering, but for the most part I want to set all that aside here.  I suppose I can spare a few sentences on the history and broad forms, because it's interesting, but it has nothing to do with this answer, since I'm not going to move towards some mapped-out breakdown at any point.  

My input draws on common sense, so this isn't really all that closely related to Buddhism.  In a different sense I think that it is, it just doesn't tie back to a specific teaching.

I'm working towards how this question came up: it was asked in a Reddit Buddhism sub-Reddit (group).  That group stays a little more on-topic than Facebook groups tend to, just leaning towards people who participate in foreign traditions, often advocating very narrow perspectives and approaches based on what their own "religion" teaches them.  Buddhism is most conventionally a religion, although it can also work as a philosophy (just not as well), and to me even better as a practical guide to introspection and perspective shift.  To me at its core that's really what Buddhism is.  Mapping that to modern forms of teachings, references, and guidance it can be a little hard to place; it's not exactly psychology, and probably as close to self-help content as anything else.  But then the form is completely different.

Buddhism background

The oldest school of Buddhism relates to a first wave of developed references, teachings, and religious traditions.  Buddhism originated in Northern India, with the Buddha himself actually from a location that's now in Nepal (with all this from memory; I studied Buddhism as philosophy and also religion, and people in history or religion programs actually covered this in classes, while I didn't).  That broad school is called Theravada, or if memory serves in the later Mahayana tradition they renamed it as Hinayana, or "small vehicle."  That's not a reference to it being lower or less important; the idea was that later on, in that second wave, practitioners supposedly focused on attaining enlightenment for all beings instead of only themselves, the Bhodisattva ideal, with "small vehicle" a reference to people only trying to become enlightened for themselves. 

It's not as much a divide as it seems, put that way, more just a difference in emphasis and approach.  Those waves were historical periods of different forms of teachings being spread; Buddhism was popular, then less, then renewed in broad uptake, in different places at different times.  The older tradition started in India and also rooted in Sri Lanka, and now it remains the main religion in Thailand.  As we have visited ancient temples throughout South East Asia, in places like Cambodia, and also in Thailand, this history is filled in with more detail as temples converted from one type to another, and art forms changed over time, official state religions did, and so on.  I'm not the best personal reference for that side of Buddhism; my memory doesn't hold matrices of ideas as it did back in my 20s and 30s.

Mahayana spread to become Chinese Buddhism (Chan Buddhism), which merged with Taoist teaching to become Japanese Zen.  Or maybe that's an oversimplification, as many of these points must be.

Then the third main branch or wave is the one based mainly in Tibet, Vajrayana.  I studied from this branch as philosophy in a grad school course, and oddly the official core teachings background seemed completely separate from my informal and limited understanding of what the religious practices are really all about (which is normal, oddly).  This is the branch that Richard Gere was into, the one that relates to unconventional sexually oriented practices.

All of this doesn't relate much to where I'm going with the final answer, just filling that in because it might be interesting.

The Reddit starting point and initial answers there

The question was this:  Your friend cooks you a meal. The food is bad. He asks you whether the food was good. What do you say?

Additional clarification [part of the same post]:  Actual experience I had leading to a question of how I should respond in keeping the precepts.

Most people commented that telling a white lie would be fine, saying that the food is good, and others suggested saying something positive about what was ok about the meal.  At least when I first commented no one mentioned telling the truth, saying that the food is bad.  Looking back to cite a reference from the comments that input all shifted; later on most people recommend either saying the food is bad or that it's good in some ways and could be better in others.

Basically that's what I suggested, being honest, just framing that as complimenting the meal in relation to some part being ok, then not avoiding saying that the overall effect is negative, and why.  

It amounts to doxing myself but this was my comment (it's not really an anonymous profile anyway, as those tend to be):

If someone is learning to cook they need that feedback; you have to tell them. It's possible to mix together a compliment about what part of the cooking outcome worked (something had to) and which part didn't. Then you can honestly say that your experience is mixed, and that there is room for improvement, and pass on to them what it is.

Once you are close enough with someone you can tell them the complete and honest truth. If my wife makes food that's bad I can say that it's bad, and why, and we can usually even laugh about it. Her cooking was awful for quite awhile, and it got better and better over time, and now when I say that's really good that's exactly what I mean, and she is satisfied in an important way. It's a part of life to learn by starting at the beginning.

When you have kids this pattern repeats, over and over. You can keep telling them you are truly awful at this one thing you are only considering doing, but you need to work through that, taking these steps in practice, and you won't be then. You need to nudge them, to say not to give up, or to not even start, but encourage them to move on to working through it. That's why when you tell your friend they've ruined the meal including things that went well and suggestions for changes can help them see the path forward, and you can say that you want to try the next version that's better. Presented in the right way you could even cook them the same dish and point out the small differences, and if your approach is from the heart they won't feel like you are one-upping them. At that point you need to ask them to prepare a better version for you, to ask them to try again.

Absolute and complete honesty can set you free, really. You just need to know how to use it to help people.

One person cited part of core teaching reference, which I thought was a good answer; this lists the first 3 of 6 points of guidance on truthfulness:

[1] In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial [or: not connected with the goal], unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathāgata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

You get the point; it takes some reading and thought to sort that out, and it's more interesting when you do.  Someone else cited a parable that was described as relating, as an external source link, but I didn't read through that.

What is the lesson here?  It's not about patterns of Reddit comments shifting, or even related to how different schools of Buddhism would vary on lying about telling your friend the meal he made is bad.

As I see it the lesson is that we need to turn things around and look at what is being discussed from the other person's perspective.  Your friend intends to cook you another meal later on, most likely, and to go on practicing cooking for the rest of his or her life.  It's nice for them to hear back that the meal is delicious but it's important for them to get good feedback, to know what you think.

Then related to lying in general, to white lies, I think we can often respond to others and clarify the context and broader meaning in what we say, and typically not really lie.  Using another random example, if someone gets a relatively bad haircut no matter what you say or don't say if they're not going to get another haircut to correct for it that's just how they're going to look for a few weeks, so at first it may seem best if they ask about that to say that they look fine.  

The same problems come up though.  They could get the results fixed a bit, trimmed and adjusted further, and if they go back in three weeks and get another bad haircut, and ask you again, it's a recurring cycle that should've been cut off the first time.  The same approach might have worked; compliment the length being suitable, but actual style leaving room for improvement, or the opposite.  

My wife has taken to cutting my son's hair and he looks flat-out awful every time, and I go ahead and tell him that every time; she butchered you.  He already knows it; saying anything else is clearly ingenuine.  Then that stings a little but if we can have a laugh about it when he goes to school and his friends have the same reaction he can play it off with honesty; my Mom took a course in cutting hair--she really did--and she's still terrible at it, and she butchered me.  He's not done with looking like that but it's out in the open, accepted; everyone can move on.  It's very healthy to not be insecure when part of what you experience is a limitation of sorts, like a bad haircut, or an inability to cook well.

the closest photo example I could find; this is after his local barber fixed it

Even at work, where everyone can't really use the complete truth in expressing opinions, for obvious reasons, I think this kind of general strategy still works.  You never need to express a complete lie; you can always mix quite a bit of your real opinion with background context and some other scope from an opposing view to communicate more of what you think, if not all of it.  Ok, maybe sometimes a relatively complete lie is in order, if your supervisor tells you to do something that you completely disagree with, and it's just not the time or place to press the point, and then they ask a specific question.  Usually I would go with that other approach, mixing two opposing answers, but sometimes you can't, or it just doesn't make sense to.

A bit of tangent can help place that, related to part of how I see work themes.  To me at work if something doesn't matter then it doesn't matter; if two opposing choices or plans lead to essentially the exact same place then picking the one that you favor is a battle that you don't need to fight.  Unfortunately plenty of things framed as important don't really matter, a good bit of the time.  Then when things really do make a difference, and a negative outcome seems likely to come up based on a bad choice, that's the time to change communication approach.  

All this could seem off the subject of white lies, but if your work manager asks if a dumb idea seems dumb, and the context is set up in one particular way, then the most honest answer may not be best.  If there's no harm in it you can say that's fine.  Then if your judgment is off everything won't be fine, and you can learn from that mistake.

I think people often get too comfortable with adjusting how they communicate about reality in terms of lying to others.  The white lie theme seems to naturally come up more and more often, and drift or morph into telling people whatever works best instead of what is actually accurate, a lot of the time.  People catch on to how you communicate, and it's soon clear as day that you don't really mean what you say.  Beyond that it can be more positive to be genuine for your own sake, to take communication and representing your own perspective differently.  

There's the old idea that if you don't lie there less to remember, but I mean beyond that.  There is a purity in communicating the truth.  It's harder, in a sense, because you need to adjust for how others take what you say, which takes some practice.  

In the original example, asking about that prepared meal, it's the simplest thing in the world to say "it's good."  Then if you want to instead say "it's bad," without just being rude and thoughtless, you need to add words and layers of concepts, about how it's your intention to be completely honest, and some aspects are fine (citing a couple), and some aren't (referencing those), and then summarizing that in general there's lots of room for improvement, but that it shows cooking skill in some areas.  It could seem tiresome.  That friend definitely wants to hear "it's good" instead, but the feedback will help them.

Getting all of this communication approach wrong is a big problem, and without practice in being fully honest one would botch it.  It's like cooking, or cutting hair; no one is born good at it.  But as with those other things it's important to stick with it.  Maybe not the cutting hair; people can skip doing that.  

One of my kids picked up this pattern of trying to be as honest as possible all of the time from me, and the other picked up the more conventional form from his mother, lying when it's more convenient to.  I don't blame him when I catch him doing it, but we often pause to run through how the whole cycle works, how people can only trust you to the extent that they recognize that you typically tell the truth.

Then an odd secondary theme enters in:  if you ask Keoni if he is lying his poker face fails him, badly, and he ends up making a weird series of shifting expressions that Kalani and I refer to as a "melting face."  She can stone-cold lie, if she wants to; she just chooses not to, almost all the time.  Maybe there is some connection?

that's something else; a Gigachad impression

Whether there is or isn't I teach them not to lie, ever, if possible, for the reasons expressed here.  They seem to get it, and they're both now good at seeing how interpersonal relations and communication styles work out on that deeper level, and how approaches and outcomes can vary.

Lincang and purple sheng pu'er from a local Bangkok shop

I visited a local shop recently to connect with an online contact, the Ju Jen Tea shop in the Paradise Park mall (out towards the airport and Bangna; out there).  I've been to an earlier iteration of that shop, and mentioned it in this blog many years ago, when they were in a smaller food court stall.  Now it's a conventional shop, still in that food court zone.

It was very nice hanging out at that shop, and meeting other local tea enthusiasts, and the owner, who is very kind, and a gracious host.  I recommend visiting there.

for sure there is a lot to explore in that shop

This will be mostly about the tea, but the background of it will be sparse.  One I only know as a 2017 purple material version, and the other I think is from Lincang, and it probably has a date on an inner wrapper.  That's going to be it for tea background.  We weren't talking a lot about these particular teas, and I tried a 1980s shu and some very high end Chinese green tea while there, a sample another guest brought, the kind of tea that sells for over $5 a gram.  That's too much, of course, but so it can go with rare and well-regarded teas in China.  It was pleasant, at least.

I just wrote a review yesterday (the notes) about an 80s Liu Bao version from Thailand, and it keeps occurring to me that I don't value stories and background enough to make rare and exceptional teas stand out so much to me.  If the tea is good it's good, but the moment doesn't necessarily become more special in relation to backstories, and I'm not swept up in extra feelings.  If I see people wearing robes or martial arts clothing it all becomes that much more absurd to me, instead of venturing into special event range.  To be clear I wasn't offended or put off by that shop owner dressing the part; it's fine.  But at the most it doesn't mean anything to me.

On with the tasting part then.  I won't cross reference other experience all that much, because I don't have a Lincang standard aspects range in mind to compare this to, and I may have only ever tried two purple leaf tea versions before, not counting a commercial black tea version from Kenya, which is really something else.  The one brick I bought of that was a bit sour; it will be interesting to see if that's consistent in this.  If it relates to two versions being sour that doesn't mean that purple teas in general are.  They are said to be fruity in an unusual way, a bit towards grape (and often a little sour); I'll keep an eye out for that.

The Lincang (if it is that) has 2021 written and stamped on the label; that had been under a desiccant pack wrapped within a plastic outer seal.  Intuitively one would drink the lighter tea first, which I would guess would be the purple one, but I'll reverse that to use the more standard tea as a baseline for comparison.

Review:

Lincang:  too light to get a complete sense of this round, but it's already quite pleasant, sweet and complex.  This is going to be nice.  There is a lot going on for flavor, plenty of floral range, and a catchy mild fruit tone, a little towards bubble gum.  It seems disrespectful putting it that way; that wouldn't be a conventional interpretation.  I'll do more of a flavor list next round.

Purple:  That's just crazy.  There is a substantial amount of sourness to that, even brewed light.  An odd mineral base range grounds it too, warm tones, that are quite unusual.  Feel includes a touch of dryness, astringency that would make as much sense in a black tea version.  It's the rest of the flavor that is most unique; I'll have a go at capturing it in a flavor list next round.

Lincang, second infusion:  there's that bitterness, quite pronounced this round.  I really like the way this floral effect comes across.  It's intense.  Sweetness is very pronounced, and the flavor range carries over very nicely as a aftertaste.  If someone told me this was a high quality tea version from an exclusive and in-demand area I'd be inclined to believe it.  If I've got the story right it's from a village area that's not one of the main, known areas (translated through someone else from the shop owner, so who knows).  

It's hard to go further than "floral" for description; that's it.  I might do more with specifying which types of flowers, but I'm not good at that.  It's sweet, complex, and very aromatic, let's say most like orchids (just a guess).  It's heavy, towards lavender, but not quite that rich and deep a flavor range.

Purple:  this is really crazy.  I let both brew a bit long, around 20 seconds, and infusion strength is too high for this version, just not the other; funny it worked out that way.  It has a dry edge to it.  Too dry; I'll need to go quite light on the next round and brew around that.  The odd fruity flavor is cool, different, but ruined by that feel in this proportion.  I wonder if this isn't a bit oxidized?  It's crazy that it ends up feeling like that, completely unconventional for any sheng version.  It's essentially outside of conventional tea range, as if this is some sort of tisane.

Lincang, third infusion:  similar, very floral, with plenty of bitterness, and a rich, full feel.  For anyone not ok with bitterness this would be quite challenging, but for me it's ok.

Purple:  it's more approachable brewed fast and light, but still strange, in a way that's more bad than good.  The flavor is interesting; maybe that does taste a bit like grape.  Not exactly like grape jelly, but more like the old grape juice.  Concord grape?  My great grandfather had a grape vine and those had that one strong and interesting grape flavor, with a really strong and dry feel to the skin.  A little like this, I guess.  

Sheng being dry is just odd.  It's hard to place what real tea is anything like this.  It's like tasting some kind of metal, like tasting a galvanized roofing nail.  It's a little sour too.  I can't say that it's good but at least it's interesting.  It's a little like the flavor and feel of eating unripe mango, which I had with breakfast.  I love ripe mango more, and don't tend to even buy the other range, but versions had some yellow skin color, along with being mostly green, so I bought three to try them.  They're sweeter than most unripe mango but still quite sour, with a dry feel, not completely unlike this tea.

I bought a Thai wild origin material cake made by Kittichai of Jip Eu (that shop owner) that's quite sour, made from wild growing plant types that I doubt are all conventional Assamica.  I bought a second cake version of it, even though it's hard to get a feel for how much I like that, so that I can see how it ages.  I'm not even drinking the first cake much, so I have at least half left, a half dozen years later.  That second cake I'll probably have still intact in another decade.  It would be nice if it somehow ages unusually well but my guess is the opposite, that it won't change as much as conventional tea, and the intensity will just fade, more than warmer tones will evolve.

Lincang, 4th infusion:  brewing both these fairly quickly, around 10 seconds, works well for this tea version.  When we tried teas at that shop they were brewed even lighter, wispy thin, which is one normal preference range.  Somehow that makes it even easier to identify flavor range, but feel mostly drops out (mouthfeel, I mean; who knows about cha qi).  I guess that I like a medium strength infusion that many would consider brewed strong, which varies along with what suites a tea.  

This has plenty of intensity, complexity, sweetness, bitterness, and rich feel to come across well brewed light.  It balances well made that way.  Again this wouldn't be light to everyone, just normal to many.

These are the worst flavor-list interpretations of any teas I've reviewed for ages; they reduce to "floral" and then "sour and dry in feel."  I was talking to my kids while writing those notes.  They sometimes play video games while we talk, so doing something else while I talk can work out, but it's distracting.

I haven't done justice to describing a vegetal range input in this.  It's kind of a green wood tone, not completely different than the pronounced range in that favorite Thai sheng I drink all the time, the one from Aphiwat, but that's more like plant stem, and this is plain green wood.  Strong aftertaste is pleasant; the experience doesn't diminish after you swallow it, and the form of that aftertaste is pleasant, very sweet and rich, all floral range.

Purple:  this makes the most sense that it has so far.  Warm tones join in, along with the dominant sourness and dry feel.  There's an inky character to that extra flavor, overlapping with mineral range, but going well beyond that too.  It reminds me of the smell of a tar based shingle on a hot day, not exactly like tar, but based completely on it.  It's odd how a construction theme has evolved in tasting this, all based around roofing.  If you could taste the experience of putting a new shingle roof on a house this would be it.  Then it's a separate question if that's a good thing.

Interpreted differently that could be incense spice that's picking up, something along the line of frankincense.  It sounds better, that this is like drinking the experience of smelling incense, instead of brewing up roofing materials.  A lot of that flavor is captured in mineral tone range too, what your tongue identifies, so it's not just the aromatic range.  It's actually pleasant, this round.  The others less so; the experience has evolved to become more approachable.

Lincang, 5:  this will be it for notes; my patience is running out.  This is the most pleasant this tea has been; it's softening and gaining depth in a very pleasant way.  I would guess it has a few more rounds like this in it too, that it will be exceptional for another 4 or 5 infusions, before it ends up fading some.  Even then this might make another 10 rounds; it's pretty strong tea.  This has been a pleasant surprise, better than I expected.  I think this is quite good tea.

Purple:  this is the best it has been too; that dry feel keeps fading, and sourness diminishing as a main input.  It's fruitier now, more along the lines of grape, I guess.  That might be from the power of suggestion, that I was expecting that.  It's nice how that fruit integrates with what is more of an aromatic spice range aspect now.  It could as easily make no sense together, but the two link together quite well.  

For novelty this is much more interesting than the other version.  In relation to being judged in relation to standard sheng character range this is off the map, while the other is in a favorable range.  These have both been interesting and pleasant.  It's nice this evolved as favorably as it did, so I can conclude that.  Two rounds ago it would've left off at at least being interesting.

Conclusions:

Two really interesting and pleasant teas.  I didn't mention value yet; that's another part of the story.  If I'm remembering right the Lincang version was about 350 baht, or $10, and the purple material version was 800 or so, so just over $20.  These were a good value for that.

Then it's interesting how I like the Lincang version quite a bit more, and how it matches standard good quality sheng more.  That's how it would go though, that the complete novelty of the other being purple leaf material could raise the cost.  It's older too, but I doubt that improved it much, or would even in another decade or more.

It's interesting considering that the Lincang version would cost about $35 for a standard cake size; that's fantastic, for what this tea is.  Then it makes sense that it's from an off area, not a place of origin in high demand, so it could be sold for a good value even though the quality and character really stand out.

All that is relative though, right?  It's better than most of what I normally drink, but for being on a tight tea budget the 50 cents to $1 a gram range is inaccessible to me.  The Thai sheng I've been drinking isn't easy to place on a quality scale, in relation to Yunnan versions, because the style is slightly different, and that changes everything.  The material used to make Aphiwat's versions is clearly amazing, but it's still a little unusual in style.  I love it, but then others might not even like it.

This purple leaf tea is all the more like that; some sheng drinkers might love it, and others hate it.  It definitely works for novelty.  It would be interesting doing a comparison tasting of this along with the "probably not Assamica" version I mentioned buying from Kittichai.  Both are a bit sour, both somewhat challenging.  This purple version seems much better after the initial 5 infusions or so, which is odd.  That kind of thing is normal for rough edged, really-should-be-aged younger sheng versions, but for those a more conventional form of astringency and bitterness would settle over some rounds, not this completely atypical version of those.

A lot of people might think that they really should go back and get more of that Lincang.  It's too far of a drive, on the opposite side of town, and in general I'm fine with getting to what I get to in teas.  It would be nice to have 3 or 4 more of these tiny cakes, and if I made it back out there I would buy at least a couple, but I can live without them.  With just a few minor changes to that character it would have amazing aging potential, if the feel structure was just a bit more developed, and intensity dialed up just a little.  As it is the tea is quite good now and will continue to be for quite awhile, maybe on into when it is aged, but that's harder to guess.

1980s Thai Liu Bao

 

Bruce, a friend in Chiang Mai, passed on some tea samples, which I've already reviewed one of, a Rou Gui from Wuyi Origin.  This is 1980's Thai Liu Bao, something different.  I don't know that I've ever had, or even heard of, Thai origin Liu Bao.  

There is a long tradition of Chinese people visiting other South East Asian countries to make tea from tea plants already growing there, surely related to an earlier tradition of Chinese influence.  For sure people from China made this tea, either visiting to do so or local immigrants.

The color doesn't look exactly like in that first photo.  It was an odd shade of light brown, leaning a little towards grey, but not exactly like the picture, which is a little washed out from bright sun conditions (I've been into outdoor tasting lately).  You can imagine how it really looked; a little browner.

Review:

First infusion:  this is unique at least.  Liu Bao tends to very often have a rough edge of some sort, a harsh dry mineral aspect, or an off storage related flavor input, something different.  This is much closer to pretty good shu pu'er than any version I've tried.  So I guess that means this is the pre-fermented variation?  I would place this as shu based on just trying it.  There's a light, dry mineral edge that's typical of Liu Bao, but the rest is a complete match.  [Later edit:]  Bruce said that he thinks it was pre-fermented, so the "ripe" version of Liu Bao.

Then it's on to how I feel about shu; as I've repeated here 100 times it seems a lot like all the same thing to me, varying less than most other tea types.  Some green or white tea versions can be a little like that too, depending, or lighter Tie Guan Yin.  Flavor range is decent for this, complex, warm and earthy, with some sweetness, and a touch of cacao.  Feel and minimal aftertaste are ok; it's good.  I'll let it brew a little longer again next time, out towards 30 seconds again, to see if it really opens up.  If it just develops a little this will be pretty good but if it can add depth and go through some transition maybe unusually interesting.

Second infusion:  creaminess ramped up and a touch of marshmallow entered in.  This is really different.  Then it's odd that this is so close to shu range, more like that than any Liu Bao I've ever tried.  They are closely related tea types, per my understanding, with shu wet-pile fermentation processing based on Liu Bao processing, but usually results aren't this similar.  I would guess this has some age on it too, that it's this smooth and clean because it has settled for awhile.  Bruce mentioned something about the age but I don't remember it; I can look that up.  It's a Thai version from the 1980's; that's some age alright, maybe around 35 years.

So this is probably the most interesting Liu Bao I've yet to try in terms of aspect character and background story.  Then it's still just ok, pretty good, interesting and pleasant, related to interpretation in light of my preferences.  It's sort of similar to that 2006 (7?) gushu shu version that John Lim shared with me, towards light, sweet, clean, and fruity, with some cacao range, and even marshmallow in common.

I tried a shu from the 80s in a rare shop visit outing last night, oddly, which tasted a lot more like either old books, old furniture, or dirt than this.  Some of that is the specific storage input; if a tea spent 35 years in an attic it would pick up flavor from that.  I don't know where this tea could've been to be this clean in effect.  Everything in Thailand tends to go a bit musty because of the really high humidity half the year, and high heat 90% of the time.  

It's cool out now, oddly, maybe 25 or so, mid 70s F.  I'll finish these notes and go for a run; it'll be the first cool weather outing since getting back here in June.  It's too bad I'm not a morning person; it had been down to 22, which is towards 70 instead.  [Later edit:]  I ran 10 km in about 61 minutes, the fastest I've covered that normal route.  Cool weather helped a lot.  I would probably be pushing km times down under 5 1/2 minutes based on the last three months of training if I wasn't always running in low 30s C / over 90 F temperatures.

Third infusion:  evolving a little, but still similar.  Slate mineral depth picks up, and cacao with a light coffee note are pleasant, and complex in a limited sense.  It's odd how clean this is.  Rough edges from a fermentation process settling out over a decade or two is normal, never mind 35 years, but this storage related input is so clean.

This tea is a bit wasted on me; plenty of people would really appreciate this.  It's clearly quite good, and the story is interesting, but to me this is pretty close to drinking well above average quality shu, 20 or 25 cent a gram tea.  This would make a nice Teas We Like product listing, something short and succinct, about it being representative of some classic type, with a few favorable aspects and general character.  

It's good, but I'd just as soon drink a medium quality and inexpensive Jing Mai sheng, and would rather have more novel young Thai sheng.  White teas tend to have that effect on me; I think well above average versions are pleasant, and then that's it.  Something like a complex and more dynamic Nepal white is a different story, with layers of light base mineral and intense fruit.  This experience is more like pretty good aged shou mei; you get it that there's something to it, but it still lacks impact.  

Feel is pretty smooth and rich for this, and aftertaste carry-over is fine, but range this mellow isn't much to stand out as an aftertaste expression.

Fourth infusion:  more of the same; this is probably a good place to take a round off notes.

Fifth infusion:  a light coffee note picks up a little, otherwise this is about the same.  It's holding up ok, maybe just fading ever so slightly, so that if it makes 3 or 4 more rounds they'll probably just be thinner and thinner, maybe with one more slight transition in aspect range.  I guess that's ok; it is what it is.  It's quite good.  People more into story value, who add more through imagination to their tea experience, would probably get a lot more out of this.  Or I guess if someone loves shu range, but really likes it to be cleaner in effect than it essentially ever is, this would be perfect for them.

I suppose alternate interpretations could work, that someone could pick up tisane / spice range in this, or could see the age as making more difference, adding an old book flavor base or the like.  To me this is pretty close to gong ting shu character, a version 5 or 10 years old, that had time to air out.  It trades out some lighter edge for depth but basic flavor is about the same.

Conclusions:

Bruce mentioned that it works well to brew a late round really long, for minutes, and after one or two more I tried that.  It was exceptional.  Tisane or spice range flavor really came out in that, heavier and warmer, again still very sweet and clean.  I tried a second very long infusion and it was similar, just not as intense, but still quite pleasant, unusually so.

This tea is really something, very novel and pleasant.  A shu pu'er drinker would almost certainly absolutely love this, unless they were somehow really into challenging range in shu, the heavier peat, tar, petroleum, or petrichor (dirt) flavors.  I get it, people use that last obscure term more related to a scent in the air after it rains, and so on, but per my understanding it also works as a description of the smell of dirt.

Maybe Liu Bao is supposed to be like this, and I've just been trying heavier and earthier flavored versions, with lots more rough edges that seem to relate to storage conditions input?  One older version that I tried from Yunnan Sourcing was only drinkable after I gave it an extra six months to air out, sitting in a cardboard bag on an open shelf, clearing a strong attic smell.  If I loved shu this would be amazing, but as it was it still very nice.

Comparing 2006 and 2012 Xiaguan tuochas

 

Why compare 9 year old and 17 year old Xiaguan tuochas, when the 17 year old version might still need another half dozen years to age-transition to be optimum?  It's more appropriate than those 4 to 6 year old aging snapshot reviews I've done in the past.  At least these are closing in on ready, one 6 years ahead of the other.

I visited my favorite Bangkok Chinatown shop recently, Jip Eu, and asked what other Xiaguan tuochas they have, since I've bought a number of these 2012 versions.  It's funny how that goes in there; if you don't ask it would never come up.  Kittichai, the owner, said that he doesn't have very many 2006 versions left so he's not selling them, but he did sell me one.  I bet that's still more of a count than when a tea enthusiast says that he or she only has a little left.  He mentioned the grade name but I forgot that.

We tried the tea together there then, since he had another open, and I had time to visit.  It's good.  It's a little musty; their storage seems a bit extra enclosed, so inclined to add a slight musty edge of flavor to the teas.  That fades after some months, stored elsewhere.  I'm not sure if it's so much of a bad thing because hot, humid, and enclosed conditions age / ferment sheng fast, so a decade can seem like 15 years of transition, and balancing more positive or neutral flavor input may not work out.  

Hot and humid enclosed conditions cause a funkiness to come up everywhere.  It's just awful for a room full of books here at our house; it basically ruins them, fermenting even that.  Anyway, on with trying these two teas.  Or I should mention that their shop is here, on Maps, with a page here on FB.

you can't tell much from this appearance

2012 left, in all photos, not that these look so different

Review:

2012:  it's good, but there's still quite a bit of green wood range bite to it, leaning towards leather, with warmer tones included, but mainly green wood.  I brewed these for awhile to skip the part about waiting for them to become wetted (on towards 30 seconds), and I'm paying the price for that.  This will drink more normally infused for 10 to 15 seconds; I'll skip more description until next round.

2006:  interesting!  It has a lot more depth to it, warmer tones, a brandy-like or aged leather sort of range flavor.  Is this really ready, fermented enough that it would be a standard practice to drink it at this time?  Yes and no.  17 years is getting there but for a lot of people they would want almost any Xiaguan tuo to be pretty far along the line for aging and fermentation level.  But this spent most of that time in Bangkok, so it's more like a 20+ year old version stored anywhere else.  

I think as rounds continue I'll say more about musty notes coming and going from that wet storage input, but brewed a little too strong it's hard to be clear on that.  It definitely also has a cement block character, which I guess isn't too bad, but it's not really positive.  It's a little challenging; let's see how a lighter infusion works out.  That's after drinking a lot of water to clear the effect of these; it would've been prudent to discard the last half of each infusion to enable getting through an extra round or two later on but I didn't, since I'm not so into wasting tea.

2012, second infusion:  a coffee note stands out in this; that's odd.  These were brewed pretty fast, in the 10 second range, but they're still too strong.  A couple of flash infusions should work well until they moderate intensity some.  Backing off a high proportion would've made sense.  I actually like this, but it is challenging.  It tastes a bit like horse saddle, with so much mineral that it seems to even include salt.  It's clean enough that I think this has great aging potential, that none of these flavors seem to represent flaws.  

I really don't like the heavy mushroom effect in some Xiaguan tuos, and smoke seems to be a component that should fade, but some seem to include what comes across as a natural flavor towards smoke range, and maybe that doesn't fade as much.  Some Xiaguan mini iron cakes I have, from around this time / age, include more dried fruit range, and are even cleaner and sweeter than this.  This is fine though, especially to age, but I might drink this from time to time just to have this range of experience, even though it is a little harsh.  I already own a few of these, and just bought two more.

2006:  this is more a balance one would look for, much smoother, with more depth, and less harsh edges.  It still has them, just less of them.  There is a storage related flavor--or what I take to be storage related--that's not ideal, a sort of basement range smell / taste.  That's normal for teas stored in Bangkok, in very closed environments (or maybe particular to Jip Eu's storage, but I take it to relate to putting any tea anywhere in a hot and humid and tightly enclosed space for many years).  That will fade over months and years, per my prior experiences, maybe not really mostly dropping out until 1 1/2 to 2 years, if it has limited air exposure.  

It's interesting that I contradict myself, in relation to what I just wrote in an intro while editing.  That musty edge will be quite faded in about 3 months but it could be very hard to detect, so effectively gone, in more than a year.

By limited air exposure I mean that I store my teas getting too much air exposure, typically in ziplock or multi-layer bags inside a plastic storage container, but I open and close that regularly to get tea out.  I use 3 of them, one for samples and what I'm drinking straight through, so I don't open the others every day, and one for longer storage I open much less often.  To me that's still pushing it on the "extra air contact" side; they're all opened all the time.  These I won't put in a ziplock bag; the cardboard case and paper wrapper will be enough containment.

There's a hint of sourness in this too; that's odd.  I guess damp storage could lead there, especially related to oolongs that aren't sealed well, but it doesn't tend to come up in sheng much.  I'll try to see how much remains next round, and do more with comparing flavors between each.  After drinking more water, again; these are intense enough that drinking them with food might make sense, having something like a butter cookie to help moderate the experience.

2012, third infusion:  that's better, brewed lighter and softened a bit by early rounds development, but it's still really intense.  The tones are generally warm; this has progressed a lot for fermentation transition, since I started drinking tuos from this batch a half a dozen or so years ago.  A good bit of green wood remains but warmer tones are on equal footing with that now, towards leather, or well-aged wood.  Mineral base is really strong, again more in a warm range than lighter, which wouldn't have been true a few years ago.  

Mouthfeel / astringency level is a little challenging; this is not smooth and mellow.  It's not like a Dayi cake in it's first half dozen years of life, before edgy and sharper / greener range transitions to warmer tones, and astringency is really rough, but in its own different way it hits as hard as a six year old 7542 cake.  It's a Xiaguan tuo; it's not messing around related to intensity.

2006:  maybe the first round that's conventionally drinkable, among all of them, with that last one of this version borderline.  A brandy-like character is developing; I bet that will pick up over the next 10 years, and that this will be fantastic as a 27 year old tea.  And only maturing that fast due to rushed wet storage fermentation rate.  Both that sourness and the basement / cement block range have mostly dropped out, just like that.  Early rounds tend to have that effect with some challenging versions of sheng, that rough edges can sort of burn off fast.  Those things are still shaping its character, but in a much more subtle, secondary effect way.  Now a rich and full feel also includes a decent amount of dryness, which is hard to place.  It's almost like the odd mouthfeel reaction from taking an aspirin.

Which reminds me, I've made it almost through three rounds without mentioning bitterness.  These are bitter; no doubt about that.  In a sense that goes without saying, as the assumed base context.  But they're not really bitter at all compared to all that young sheng I've been drinking, so it seems quite moderate to me.  It's not moderate at all, in a more balanced and objective sense; it's still a significant part of the experience.  It just seems mild to me related to a conditioning bias, to normal younger sheng.

It's going to be hard to get these to compare well as set of two flavor lists, one natural approach.  Overall effect is really dominant, how that intense feel comes across, base mineral tone shifting context, how flavors impact experiences like bitterness and sweetness (there is sweetness to comment on, I just haven't).  If a dominant flavor reminds me of brown sugar, for example, then talking about sweetness makes sense, and if one seems to resemble aged leather, or cement block, discussing mineral tones or seemingly related feel might tie in more.  Bitterness and astringency might connect with green wood flavor tone, and so on.

2012 fourth infusion:  this round's infusion looking a little darker than the other's brings to mind a question:  why does this seem to be the same age, or even older, related to leaf color and brewed leaf appearance?  Just not flavor and feel character; that's not as progressed.  I'm not sure.  These two cups are not the exact same shape, and this one is taller and narrower, and it might only be that.  I divided my cup collection between here and Honolulu and I tend to use these two different shape cups together, so there is one of each mixed sets in both countries.  Maybe there's something else I'm missing going on.

This is finally on the light side, for infusion strength (as very powerful sheng goes; an oolong drinker might spit this back out).  Let's do a flavor list:  some green wood, integrated with the rest; warm tones resembling leather, but a little towards very aged wood; warm mineral base; bitterness; sweetness, not so pronounced but it balances the rest.  From there alternate interpretations of all of that range is possible.  Maybe those warm tones really include fallen autumn leaf.  The bitterness and mineral include a bit of a chalky nature, along with warmer range, which is more like artesian well.  An alternate interpretation cutting across these ranges could see this as tasting like copper, like sucking a penny.  Altogether it's interesting and complex, but a few more years of aging wouldn't hurt, mellowing character and deepening flavors.

2006:  I keep refilling water to clear my palate, now in between teas in addition to rounds.  I'm going to be hydrated after this.  People speak of how they like the experience of flavor and feel building as they progress through rounds.  They're talking about not drinking the water, and letting a milder character tea experience build up over time.  Intensity is an issue here, a concern, not something to be appreciated and embraced.  If this was a 17 year old, wet-stored, standard Yiwu version I'd be trying to get it to extend intensity as much as possible.  Here I'm brewing it light and still working through the intensity.

This is finally on the too-light side, four infusions in, using near flash brewing.  I can finally brew these for over 10 seconds, maybe around 15, and experience them without intensity issues.  I'll do this version's flavor list next round, since it's going to work better at normal intensity.  Actually you can often split apart flavors better when a tea is brewed wispy light (this isn't that, but it's light), but I'm not in the habit of experiencing tea that way, so for me it's not ideal.

probably enough of the nearly identical photos

2012, fifth infusion:  maybe I'll take a break after this; powering through 10 cups of these teas is a lot.  Where some teas would be tapering off after this point I think these are just finally reaching their main character range.

A touch of sourness picks up in this; brewing it slightly stronger shifts the aspects range.  Green wood stands out more brewed a little stronger.  It's hard to describe what I would mean by calling this still clean in effect.  It could have a chalkier, dryer feel, or off flavor range (which I guess that touch of sourness is an example of, but I mean as a dominant aspect).  Sweetness is good in this, and bitterness level is where it should be; it all balances as it should for a sheng of this type, and Xiaguan character, at this age level / fermentation level.  Some Xiaguan versions aren't like that, not that I'm an expert in that scope.  I have another example in between these age ranges that I could've compared these to that's just not very good, so I left it out.  No way I'd try drinking three Xiaguan tuocha versions at the same time anyway.

2006:  nice!  Relatively speaking, if you like the type range.  Onto that flavor list:  a brandy-like effect stands out, tying to warm and rich flavor tones, to tree bark or spice range.  It has an almost medicinal quality to it, connecting with a root-spice range that reminds you of a Chinatown herbal medicine shop. I think most people would cite camphor as a main aspect, and that does fit.  The feel is interesting, rich and full, a bit smooth, but with some residual dryness.  I get the sense that at 17 years old this still needs another half dozen years to even get into that final aged range, and maybe a decade to enter a more optimum range.  So the other might need 15 more years?  These teas do lend themselves to an aging long game.

That flavor list derailed, let's keep going:  leather joins the brandy, tree bark, spice and camphor.  Sweet and rich tones might include dried fruit, along the lines of tamarind, but not that, maybe more like dried longan, but not as catchy and pleasant as dried longan, as a secondary input.  Bitterness is quite moderate, but included, and sweetness does couple with the range more at this stage.  Sourness is almost entirely gone in this round, hard to make out.  Then for any of that range alternative interpretations might work, and someone could really see leather or autumn leaf as a part I'm not describing as that.

Off to take a break.  Maybe one more round in a half an hour will turn up different final thoughts.  These teas are only halfway through an infusion cycle, but brewing 15 grams of Xiaguan sheng at one time is just a bad idea.  I should be more flexible about shifting brewing approach, and drop the proportion when it makes sense to.

2012, sixth infusion:  not bad at all; as good as it's been.  The warm tones I've been describing ramp up while the green wood settles to a lower input level.  It balances better.

2006:  this too; the slight mustiness / sourness is still present but it fades, and that brandy or cognac note shines through more.  It tastes cleaner.  I'll go one more round even though I expect to just repeat these results.

the darkening from aging is apparent

2012, seventh infusion:  again the best this has been.  It should have a few more solid rounds before it tapers off much at all.  This isn't the kind of tea that is suitable for comparison tasting; it's too strong for that, and the infusion cycle is such that the first half dozen rounds are it just settling out a bit.  The mineral depth, warmth, and flavor range is much improved, and overall balance.  This seems to include a bit more toffee sweetness than it had in the earlier stages.  

It's still hard to describe though; lighter and darker wood, spice, leather, and dried fruit tones mix, maybe including camphor, in ways that different people would interpret differently.  Using slightly different water temperature or different mineral profile water would probably change results more than for most teas, because it's complex and prone to a lot of transition across rounds.  

2006:  an aged effect picks up in this, an old book or furniture flavor.  That's odd, isn't it, that the general effect wasn't as noticeable for so many earlier rounds?  An effect I was describing as related to brandy or cognac seemed to transition to that.  It's tempting to say that it's because it's cleaner in character now, but that's sort of it but really not.  Seemingly the earlier "cement block / basement" range also changed to that, with that camphor / cognac range shifting more to aromatic wood preservative oil range, something like a linseed oil, I guess, or whatever is going on with really old furniture preservatives.  I suppose it's better, for sourness and slight dry feel dropping out, but to me it's more just different.  It's interesting.

There would be more such transitions to follow, over the next half a dozen rounds.  But my patience for taking notes is worn out, so I'll skip that.

Conclusions:

Kind of what I expected, I guess.  I had tried that 2006 version within the last week, so it was just about focusing in more, and experiencing more rounds.  I'm not at all surprised that an 11 year old version seems quite young yet; I try that tea from time to time, when I feel like having something challenging.

I guess I'll put them both away and try the 2012 version a couple times a year for that purpose, and then mention here how they've changed in another 3 or 4 years, if I'm still writing this.  I think that older version will be so nice in another 5 or 6 years, or given how this process goes maybe 10.

Happy, my favorite local shop cat, has edible plants to snack on, maybe a type of bamboo