What are people getting out of tea?

 

It tastes good, right, and it contains caffeine?  There must be a lot more to it than that.  I was recently talking to someone about tea enthusiast culture, trying to explain my own connection to tea, and how it means different things to other people, about how it's not simple to summarize that range.  That person was an anthropology researcher, which led to interesting consideration of underlying factors.  Some of the main long term appeal of tea doesn't even relate to direct experiential aspects, or a narrow set of social dimensions; it seems more complicated.

So let's get to it, I'll say a little about what I think is attracting people to tea, and keeping them connected, often beyond the range of how other beverage interests are experienced.  I'm mostly leaving out health interest.  Maybe tea is so healthy that's a general context all along, but you can never really connect shifting personal preferences to greater health benefits.  You might "go organic" along the way, or something like that, also taking up tisanes / herb teas, but I don't see that factor as a typical main connection.  For some it could be mostly about that though.

It might seem like I'm discounting some of these experiential aspects or other factors as trivial, or not of significant value, but really that's not my intention.  People can choose what they want to experience and value for their own reasons, and as long as it doesn't harm others, or at some point also themselves, then any basis for choices seems valid.

tea bags, English Breakfast tea:  not really started yet, but those are related.  One might wonder if higher quality tea prepared in pyramid style tea bags couldn't be an exception, since it is better tea. Sure, why not?

flavored teas:  this is at least a gateway, something people can value for novelty and intensity, a nice next step for people acclimated to sugary sodas.  For me this was jasmine green tea, although many years prior I had tried Tazo blends, and if things had gone differently trying those might have led further.  Loose tea was available in the US when I got into tisanes, in the 90s, but it was harder to find then.  In the loosest sense Arizona iced tea in a can is a flavored tea, but of course I mean something else here, the range that you brew.

plain medium quality loose black tea, oolongs:  the main appeal really only starts to show through here, and none of those deeper level, emergent aspects apply yet, like a social dimension.  It's fascinating that tea can extend beyond a commonly known range, and that plain, real tea can match and exceed other flavored versions for complexity and positive character.  Just putting dried leaves in hot water can seem like a novel food preparation step, maybe a little daunting at first, but later on there isn't that much to it, or at least doesn't have to be.

you just can't describe how novel and interesting the actual experiences can be

exploring average or above average loose teas:  things shift here, once you realize that the limited set of versions you've encountered are only the early start, and that quality levels vary, so that even what you tried didn't represent those types and categories well.  All this is still about experienced aspects, for the most part, and on to novelty of experience a bit.  That there is a learning curve becomes clear at this point, which I guess could be taken in different ways.  This is a good stage for sorting out that you can make masala chai yourself, or Christmas themed blends, just a little early for trying versions that aren't from China, Japan, India, or Sri Lanka.

flavor versus mouthfeel, aftertaste, and body feel effect, cha qi:  at first people tend to value taste in teas, and generally need those to be on the intense side to relate to them, hence the flavored tea gateway.  Later on it becomes possible to value other experiential aspects that add depth, like mouthfeel and aftertaste (which can go by different names, like texture or length).  "Drinking tea with your body" (discussed here, and framed in that way, by the godfather of tea blogging) is often described as desirable after a good bit of exposure, appreciating the way teas make you feel, for some more so than all the rest of the experience.  I only notice those effects when they're on the strong side, when it starts to resemble drug effects, and don't really value that.  That said I do drink whatever tea I feel like every morning, and I can't be sure which effects I'm intuitively desiring.  My mood might match a certain experience, across different aspect range, and I can't rule out that I'm connecting types with outcomes in a way that I'm just not clear on.

brewing exploration:  along with getting to slightly above average versions at later stages it becomes clear that the early brewing practices first learned were also only a start.  It seems like tweaking those a bit would lead to much better, stable form practices, but later it becomes clear this is all part of a much longer learning curve too.  The first move in learning is to try to optimize practices, to dial in proportion, timing, and brewing temperature for type, and then later it's clear enough that it's just not that simple, and you can keep varying experience in ways that are just different, not more or less optimal.  Water mineral content factors in; inputs like that take time to sort through.  The shift from a Western brewing approach to Gong Fu brewing tends to come up later, a subject I just wrote about.

references, social connections:  probably before the last step or two the idea that an external reference might help can come up.  It might be an online group; that could make more sense now than looking into a text blog or Youtube channel, or I suppose that might depend on the context, what information one is after.  This kind of slightly deeper dive might couple well with the next steps mentioned here.  This experience level is really a good place to learn a bit and set it all aside, on to exploring some other subject instead, but either the experience, the social connection, or reference links pointing further might lead to the opposite, continuing on.

one old-style tea forum is still active now

placing yourself socially in relation to other tea enthusiasts:  definitely not necessary, but once this starts you're hooked.  Vendors can use this as a form of adding consumer value, but it's not that easy to set up, or to simulate through social media content.  Mei Leaf does a decent job, with high energy, charismatic approach sales pitch mixed with information, indirectly framing customers as a common interest group, not just related to liking tea, but to liking their tea.  Of course once you are further along a learning curve all that is off-putting, because you see it for what it is, a lot like how people try to sell you cars, or anything else.  I've bashed Mei Leaf and praised them at different times, but on the positive side they're packaging information and developing tea interest more than any vendor in the US tea industry, so they deserve to do good business.

Online groups support this step; the Facebook group that I moderate has 25,000 members, and a Reddit tea sub is over 650,000 now.  Discord servers themed around one vendor are that much more direct.  Real life tea social groups fit the form that much better, which can be coordinated through an online form.  Moychay, a Russian tea vendor, runs "tea clubs," commercial meetup spaces that are not really exactly the same as cafes, but this requires a developed tea subculture to work out in that form and on that scale.

a small social event at a local friend's place

owning stuff:  at some point consumer culture kicks in.  At first it's probably about how little someone needs to own to buy in, maybe picking up a basket infuser, ceramic teapot, a gaiwan, kettle, and a bunch of cups, and then later it's about what else one might want to have.  Matching what others own ties to leveling up to their status, even if other kinds of exposure level is a difficult thing to rush.  I remember a funny comment once about how so many people are "pressure cooked experts," and it's really like that.  After about a year of exploring tea it seems like you know about and have experienced a lot, and then after about two years it seems that you know almost nothing.  Owning what others own definitely buys you into one form of participation status though, as trying rare and expensive teas also can.

Owning a tea tray is simple enough, but once you start on clay pots it could never end.  If you start in on sheng pu'er, which isn't a good idea early on, you'll need to own at least one device to break up cakes (compressed teas), and probably an informal variation of a humidor for storage, a range of gear much more complicated than a wine cellar.  Other kinds of tea you generally buy to drink as soon as possible, but once you prefer teas that tend to improve with age collecting becomes a natural fit.

not something I'm so into, but teaware can be cool

coupling secondary interest with tea:  this also makes it all the easier to form a personal connection, the prior point, eg. combining interest in nature with tea experience, or Buddhism or Taoism.  Tea and food pairing would be another example of this.  Tea and health interest I've already set aside, but it never really completely drops out.  Drinking too much tea can be a concern, and it's hard to ever really fully bracket what you hear about potential benefits, for example Traditional Chinese Medicine approaches or connections might come up.

tea, nature, social contact; it can all go together (image credit to Sergey of Moychay, on the left)

connection with Eastern cultures:  a bit of a stretch?  The perception or appeal of this can stand in for real connection, and a little can also go a long way.  You don't need to go straight to ceremonial brewing or tea as meditation practice, but adding just a touch of those as inputs to routine practice adds lots of depth.  If a vendor happens to be Asian it all automatically connects, organically.  Or if a friend or contact is Asian--preferably Chinese, I guess, but tea culture exists elsewhere in Asia--they just need to have an uncle who was really into it, and they're a great reference by association, whether they are actually have much exposure to the subject themselves or not.

All that really sounds too negative, more so than I mean it.  I've lived in Asia (Thailand) for almost 15 years, and not very many people are into tea here, but connections to Indian and Chinese culture are stronger.  Even Japanese culture; we regularly shop in Japanese grocery stores, and our two overall favorite restaurants are popular interpreted versions of Japanese food themes.  I got into tea mainly because it was around, decent oolong at least, and I kept running into other types traveling elsewhere in Asia.  Gong Fu Cha brewing gets complicated, and wearing martial arts clothing I see as a little silly, but it all does connect at some level.  Chinatown is my favorite part of Bangkok, and a set of shop owners there feel like an extra aunt and uncle to me.

really inexpensive teas mostly for gifts, but I drank some jasmine green tea today

I guess to a limited extent whatever they do represents Asian culture

social connections, the next layer of placement:  along with the last two steps people push further into a range of exploration, and already have favorites, not just type ranges but favorite individual tea producers and versions, and developed forms of brewing, leading to ownership of tea gear.  At this level you can make connections with like-minded individuals, not just those who also love tea, but who take it in a similar way as you, related to exposure level and preference.  

One cool part is that with online contact being what it is those people could be anywhere in the world.  Not so much in China, since their internet is a bit walled off, in general, but even there plenty of people use VPNs.  Language issues also shut that down; to the extent there are Chinese equivalents of Western "on the path" tea bloggers or Instagrammers they're not really seeking out Americans or Europeans to talk with about that.

meetup with tea friends in lots of different places

From here I would need to spell out how tea related subcultures tend to work to really fill in what I mean by this in relation to the other connection with secondary interests.  Just being interested in both tea and Buddhism wouldn't be enough; there has to be a social group or vendor center to provide a natural point of connection.  Global Tea Hut is sort of both, tied to Buddhism, "progressive" perspective, and tea sales, and formerly tourism in Taiwan, but I think that part is on hold for now.  Local groups take on characters of their own, often centrally connected by local Facebook group, like this one in NYC.  Most typically the range of interests would just be those generally tied to tea itself:  drinking tea, trying new types, somewhat ceremonial forms of brewing, and interest in teaware.  

It crosses pretty much everyone's mind that at some point they could make money off what they've learned and experienced, and if that works it can be a stable and persistent connection, to continue on as a vendor.  From there social connections could be a helpful business support.

tea as a part of social gatherings:  Alcohol is more familiar as a social drink, and tea won't really offset natural inhibitions in the same way, but it can be a shared interest, a sub-theme to base gatherings on, and a great supporting experience to couple with hours of social contact.  After quite a bit of tea you feel a bit buzzed, and amped up, and since that sets in gradually social experience tone can gain energy along with it.  It's like how drinkers can start out a bit mellow and end up shouting in each others' faces, or dancing to loud music, but based around experiencing a mild stimulant instead.  And you never black out, throw up, get in a fight, or crash your car.  Too much of the wrong type of tea on an empty stomach can make you feel uncomfortable but eating the right kind of snack tends to offset that.

a checklist of types or areas:  this can be tricky, because new ranges turn up just as fast as you can cover your own list.  A set of 6 or 8 most famous Chinese tea types might turn up early on, leading on to trying out Indian and Japanese versions, but then Nepal tea can sound interesting, or one more variation of white tea or hei cha, or a seasonal spring tea experience others talk about.  Once you start on pu'er (sheng) the list is so long that it's never even a clearly defined set, since source areas, aspect sets / styles, producers, vendors, storage age and input, and other factors make for an endless matrix of potential experience.  Then it's on to quality issues, those talked-about source areas, or ancient plant / wild growth versions.

Why do that to yourself, right, trying to drink the ocean, adding arbitrary experience gaps as a main part of your "tea path?"  The learning curve and social connections themes can indirectly cause it.  Every interesting idea, new type, quality level experience, tea source, online tea friend, or real life social connection can lead on to what might come next.  That can be a great thing, if endless rounds of new experience are seen as positive, or else it might seem tiresome and pointless.  You would never really know when you passed a midway point for learning and exposure, until you were clearly approaching a far side, and even then broad gaps in what you haven't experienced would still stand out.

It's not just competition to try the next trendy theme version, or the highest quality levels, that can make this sort of background context off-putting.  Eventually quite a bit of all communication about tea online can seem either like a vendor trying to sell something or a tea enthusiast indirectly bragging about their own broad range of unique experiences.  Endless photos of large tea orders or unusually exclusive versions can make it impossible to match the perceived median experience range, no matter how far you get.  People typically don't mean it that way, I don't think, self-promoting as doing well in such competition.  Explicitly waving off that context in online comments can seem ingenuine, for example citing some unheard of tea version experience along with "by the way, what's in your cup?"

tea subculture leadership / "expert" roles:  it's more that eventually people really do reach the middle of an exposure curve, but I guess to some extent some thin version of status could eventually apply.  You might start a tea group that gains following or activity, or start a tea blog / YouTube or Tik Tok channel / podcast.  Writing text content about what you have learned, or tea current events, is more a theme from the past, but multiple author reference blogs like TChing still do exist, and there are plenty of published books about tea.  

There aren't many vendors with broad YouTube following, and no one I know of related to tea that's not a vendor; only the Mei Leaf channel and Sergey of Moychay's come to mind (discussed further here).  The Tea DB video blog is a good example of this; it's a popular, well developed video blog, the most followed version I'm aware of, and they currently have 7000 followers.  Not bad for the subject of tea, but there must be a dozen channels with a million followers about telling scary stores (like this one, Mr. Ballen, with 6 million followers).

It's a little harder to become the venerated, seasoned expert type without some of those exposure related credentials applying.  The learning curve is so long that it would be hard to distinguish yourself as towards the far side, and people would tend to not care if you are or aren't (as you really shouldn't).  Related to groups it could easily become tiresome answering newbie questions, because of course those repeat.  

Really a lot of that information and perspective sharing applies more to the middle of the learning curve anyway.  Those who know don't talk, and those who talk don't know (or something like that Tao Te Ching reference can work out).  There are groups oriented towards advanced tea enthusiast perspective but none that I know of themed around discussion between people towards that far extreme.  They've mostly already talked it out, or were never interested in that, or move on to a more limited guide role instead.

the end of the path:  is there one, or any number of them?  People experience different forms of this.  Some just move on, ready to explore the next thing, and this is probably more common than embracing the last few steps that I've mentioned.  Developing a caffeine intolerance nudges people in that direction; it is a drug, and long term tolerance varies.  It would also work well to integrate a simplified version of this preference into your lifestyle, and drop out essentially all exploration and self-definition.  

It's not the same thing but it reminds me of an Alan Watts quote about exploring Buddhism (and drugs more, really):  when you get the message, hang up the phone.  That doesn't mean one would need to give up tea, as I see it applied to this context, but dropping discussion and potentially even related social connections might make sense at some point.  That would never happen because someone had explored most of what there is to cover related to tea, since the subject is endless, covering countless types, experience dimensions, and background information, but it's an open option to leave off at any time.

All of this connects with ego, obviously, even the parts that are explicitly about rejecting ego, or ironically maybe especially those.  Owning more stuff, achieving status as an expert, gaining knowledge and experience, even acquiring greater levels of modesty about such status could be clear signs of personal development, for others to respect and hold in high regard.  There are so many other places to put self-definition and external value that it's rare for tea to hold a lot of that meaning for anyone, but all of these dimensions are there to potentially contain it.

Tea as a movement and personal experience

One might wonder why tea is gaining popularity just now, but the opposite question also works, why tea never gained the same degree of popularity as wine, coffee, or craft beer.  Or even matcha, which of course is a tea sub-theme, as boba / bubble tea also is.  General Asian themes might have gained some uptake over the past couple of decades, as martial arts interest increased, and foreign foods in general.  But better tea isn't "having a moment" just yet, and it potentially might never.  Foreign culture can be a great theme to explore for people on that page, and it can mean a lot to them, but it's easier to pick up and maintain an interest in lots of other subjects, most of which require less work and active involvement.  If health benefit is a main goal exercise and good diet stand out as lower hanging fruit.

The diversity of tea, which is part of the positive character, enabling continuous exploration, may also offset the obvious appeal.  Wine comes in a lot of types, often already sold in grocery stores, and opening a bottle is pretty straightforward, or the pour spout on a box, at that other extreme.  I went through shorter exploration cycles with wine and craft beer.  I remember when I first tried putting loose tea leaves in hot water and it seemed interesting, and mysterious, but also really unfamiliar.  I don't remember how much I actually loved the tasting experience, but apparently it was enough to keep trying.

an old-style mall in Shenzhen; buying tea here was one step along the way

Related to my own exploration, and why I never stopped after the first 4 or 5 steps listed here, I coupled tea exploration with learning about social media.  It sounds strange saying that now, but a decade ago social media was still expanding into new forms, and mainstream channels like Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube weren't yet what they are today.  Today it's a much more relevant concern how to limit online social exposure, and media content consumption.  Back then I was wondering what newer forms like Tumblr and Google + were all about, and it helped to combine that exploration with a subject theme, to "add friends," or however that went, around a topic interest.  Blogging was a part of that.  In a sense that only shifted over time, as old-style forums largely went away and newer forms like Discord picked up.  Tea apps are trying to gain acceptance now, and maybe one is actually getting there, the My Tea Pal version, and that set of online friends and I recently talked with a Steeped app founder.  

Still, it's a lot easier to watch content creators tell mafia stories on YouTube, or to follow podcasts, and to some limited extent that can already feel like being a part of a community.  Tea podcasts are out there now but the experiential nature of tea leads to most people not putting focus on watching someone else drink tea, or even learning subject background.  It's like how runners can join groups or watch channels to support their interest but it's still mostly about tying it back to actually running.  

To me the deepest appeal of tea is the pleasantness of quiet, simple, but also multi-layered experience.  It's like how watching a sunset can be much different than almost any other kind of aesthetic experience.  Being present in that moment is the thing, not consuming a designed and packaged experience, or framing yourself in a certain way for others.  Tea can help bring you in contact with yourself.  I suppose that is also why its appeal might never apply to more people, because that's not a page that everyone is on.

Tea references

 

First published in TChing here.

Four years ago I wrote a beginner's guide to tea themes post that included a reference section.  Someone just mentioned a good reference on oxidation (a Tea Geek blog post), a source listed in that, and it made me reconsider what I had left out, or what has changed since.

Most of what usually gets mentioned isn't bad.  If you ask in a tea group--which I see, for moderating one--people will bring up blogs like the ones mentioned in that post, or the Global Tea Hut magazines, or a few Youtube channels.  I'll only cover what is new, or that I didn't include there, at least for the most part.  Mei Leaf and Hojo vendor content both aren't bad beginner references, but both contain errors and marketing bias, as I see it.  All vendor produced content doubles as marketing, so it's probably that part of that context bothers me more than that it's different from other sources I am mentioning.

Farmerleaf video content:  this vendor started making interesting tea production videos a few years back, about black, white, and pu'er teas (and most recently about oolong; strange for a Yunnan vendor).  I did actually mention this source in that post.  It's odd how rare it is for vendor content to seem like a reference.  Cindy added background on Wuyi Yancha in hers, there's just not a lot there yet.  That limitation is normal; travel photos typically are as close as vending pages get, maybe just with tea processing pictures mixed in.  It's all partly there to sell Farmerleaf products, but William Osmont does a great job of just covering basics, and some finer points, without steering ideas too far towards product sales.

William making some sheng

Late Steeps:  this blog includes a lot of cool experiment references on using mylar bags for sheng storage, and heated storage experiments.  I'm not sure what other blogs seem like a reference to me, as half mentioned in that post some years back also sort of don't, more about reviews and general commentary.  One I left out then works for that:

Tea DB:  maybe the most popular video blog out there, with some pretty good research reference text posts.  It's hard for a blogger to level up to really being much of an expert, as tea producers almost automatically are, but someone doing research works out as developed content.

Mattcha's Blog:  this isn't mainly designed as a reference, like the Tea Geek blog is, but it's a personal favorite.  Some parts head towards that scope, digging a bit deeper into background.

Discord Communitea:  not a reference at all, a social media channel and group instead, but then that post included that range too.  An old-style forum like Tea Chat can serve as a reference using searchable threads, but daily streams of discussions just aren't that (but I'm mentioning it anyway, mostly related to novelty and uptake).

a mainframe board kind of feel people would probably like or hate

Tea Forum:  kind of a carry-over from Tea Chat, more what that had been, really by design since a falling out in Tea Chat led directly to its creation.  It never became what Tea Chat had once been, but then it's a different time now; diverse online channels mean no central references or groups could take up the same role some had a decade ago.  This reference on making your own humidity control packs is about as solid as this site gets for that role.

same for this style; it would probably seem familiar and positive or else a bit obsolete

Moychay, Sergey's content:  their content is mostly in Russian but this sub-channel is translated. Content is pretty good, solid and in-depth, and not so directed towards sales.  

Tea Masters, Tea Obsession (Tea Habitat related):  classic blogs are worth a look, and Tea Masters is actually still active (a vendor-related Taiwan based blog), with Tea Habitat, Imen's now-inactive blog, mostly related to Dan Cong.  I must be missing a lot related to this range.  Walker Tea Reviews on Youtube were great (from 2011-2014 or so); I bet those haven't even aged badly.

Podcasts: since I don't keep up with this range, or necessarily see these as a reference, I'll just mention a couple of examples and let it go; Crimson Lotus does an interesting series, and Cody of Oolong Drunk does a cool informal version.  There must be lots of these (I keep seeing mentions), or saved seminar and forum content.  Again the "reference" theme can be vague;  if someone put enough research in a seminar session could be that, or the right expert talking for an hour is a great resource, but hearing stories about how someone got into tea can become repetitive.

That's good for a start.  I'm really not reading around reference content as frequently now; exploration naturally follows cycles, and after awhile that kind of drops out, then something triggers new rounds.  I try to not give up on learning but in basic references I tend to see more errors and omissions in reference content than ideas I'm not already familiar with.  It's hard to think of a counter-example, to place that in relation to something I've read or viewed this year that was newer to me.  William's Farmerleaf content always goes into more detail than I'm clear on for tea processing, and Sergey's Moychay content talks about visiting parts of China, and growing and processing themes there, which of course aren't familiar.

A lot of blogs are just about trying countless teas; I suppose mine could come across like that, even though I'm largely off the subject this year.  A little of that could go a long way.  It's nice venturing into new types range, to higher quality levels, or getting to other basics, but trying to drink the ocean for trying hundreds of kinds or versions of teas could be way too much to embrace.  Even the basic background context has limits for practical utility.  It's all about making a drink from dried leaves and hot water, which doesn't need to be so complicated.  I tend to see the background learning and social media themes as secondary and complementary interests, as much as directly tied to drinking tea.

Tea bringing people together (just less literally lately)

 

originally posted in TChing

I keep reconsidering and changing my impression of tea culture.  Or subcultures; it's not all one thing.  

What really started me thinking about this was a family tradition of having a cup of tea with my parents in the evening.  Odd timing for that caffeine intake, but one tea-bag worth didn't seem to matter.  It wasn't "tea appreciation," as I now experience it, but I would trade my entire tea habit for more contact with my parents. 

One of my favorite sub-themes relates to a circle of friends exploring tea together, basing social gatherings on that.  During the pandemic I met with a group of online friends in different places, related to tea, so I did get to experience one form of that, and that also meant a lot to me.  I'm really not a part of a local tea sub-culture, and I currently don't meet local friends related to tea.  I started a Facebook group based on starting to do local (Bangkok) tasting events awhile back but let the initiative go.

photo credit Suzana Syiem, if I remember right

Making online connections can be problematic.  Groups are a good place to exchange ideas, to ask questions, and share an interest with others, but translating that to social bonds that feel real is harder.  One of my initial social connections living in Thailand was participating in a popular expat forum.  That later experienced a decline as groups or sites can, and finally shut down. 

I keep exploring tea cultures in different places in blog articles, looking into how tea interest goes in Sweden, Poland, and Russia.  Russian groups can either take a formal version of the circle of friends or can relate to tea club attendance and events.  I'm really curious about China, since I talk to plenty of vendors and producers there, and a few close friends here were from there, but I've not ran across a close parallel to the US "enthusiast" culture.  To many people it's just a drink there.  

one of the main Moychay tea clubs (just not the best time for a gathering like that)

US-based tea bloggers and vendors seem to find it easier to form online and real-life bonds, through expos and local circles. Being part of a group-buy or monthly subscription circle could lead to connections, bridging over into discussion.  I've written about one form, Liquid Proust set buys (about the theme and the teas), and there are several others. 

Of course any shared interest can bring people together, especially online.  An international Facebook group can help with that, or a second "Tea" group that I also moderate, or a Quora Specialty Tea Space.  Online contact through text only goes so far, but video events like Tealet informal seminars could feel a little like joining a local Meetup or seminar event.  

In asking around about other options people brought up a group chat group through the Telegram app, Discord group discussion and other exchange, and a new app called Topia supporting virtual tea-room meetings.  Using standard communication tools in novel ways would work; in discussion someone mentioned a broad Zoom-based tea circle also using smaller break-out discussions after a main session.  It would be interesting to hear what else is out there.

local groups could meet online instead (how I think this site is arranged)

I know that meeting up in person can be a touchy subject in lots of places right now, but it could help that isolation is a shared experience, for many.  It's a good time to branch out online, and make some new connections, or experience a new contact channel.

Quora 2018 Top Writer recognition

Last week I was notified that I was named as a 2018 Quora Top Writer.  So cool!  I've been writing lots of answers there for the last half year or so, mostly about tea to begin with, but more recently about travel and life in Asia, and onto other subjects.  It was nice communicating some ideas about Russia based on visiting there over the Christmas and New Years holidays.

I wasn't completely sure what it means, what the criteria were.  I did look that up (in Quora answers), and cover that here.  In one answer "thread"--which those sort of aren't, in the same sense in groups and forums--it seemed like there are hundreds of Top Writers now.  If there are millions of people answering questions on Quora and hundreds of "top writers" that's still something.

Of course I'm going to shift this to shameless self-promotion, to mention how many views and likes I've had, and link to some favorite posts.  First I'd like to say a bit more about Quora, and before that to give credit to who introduced me to it (based on memory, which isn't reliable).

Robert Godden is another tea blogger, familiar to most in "tea circles," who has been answering Quora questions for some time, and as I recall seeing notices about that started me on answering questions about tea too.  His own tea blog is here, and his Quora profile is here.

This guy Kegon on Quora really seems to know tea too.

What is Quora

I'll go with some Wikipedia background on this part (it's usually close enough to accurate, with further source citation references omitted here):


Quora is a question-and-answer site where questions are asked, answered, edited, and organized by its community of users...  The company was founded in June 2009, and the website was made available to the public on June 21, 2010. Users can collaborate by editing questions and suggesting edits to answers that have been submitted by other users.


That's what it is alright.  A little more on user count and function from there:


Quora's user base has grown quickly since 2010. As of April 2017, Quora has claimed to have 190 million monthly unique visitors, up from 100 million a year earlier...

...Quora launched a full-text search of questions and answers on its website on March 20, 2013, and extended the feature to mobile devices in late May 2013. It also announced in May 2013, that all its usage metrics had tripled relative to the same time in the prior year. In November 2013, Quora introduced a feature called Stats to allow all Quora users to see summary and detailed statistics regarding how many people had viewed, upvoted, and shared their questions and answers.


Those aren't Facebook user numbers but pretty good for an expanded version of Yahoo Answers.  And finally mention of the Top Writer's program:


In November 2012, Quora introduced the Top Writers Program as a way to recognize individuals who had made especially valuable content contributions to the site and encourage them to continue...  Top writers are invited to occasional events and receive gifts such as branded clothing items and books. The company believes that, by cultivating a group of core users who are particularly invested in the site, the program creates a feedback loop of user engagement.


It seems like they've scaled back the gifts--now a New York Times subscription instead--but that general point is the same.  I'm not sure about that "feedback loop of user engagement" just yet.  I'm definitely chatty online as it is; it might be as well if they didn't ask me for feedback.  That "loop" part seems to relate to them saying "good job" with the designation itself instead.

What does "Top Writer" even mean

Oddly this isn't really clearly defined on the site, but since the initial posting of this I ran across a better, more official explanation posted by Jonathon Brill, one of the Quora staff related to selection and announcements:

 The Top Writers program recognizes some of Quora's most consistent, insightful, and valuable contributors. Top Writers are writers who make consistent, high quality contributions. Selection criteria include: the number, quality, and popularity of contributions, and moderation history. Top Writers often have significant domain expertise and are Most Viewed Writers in one or multiple topics.


That matches the hearsay accounts I had already turned up, which go further in speculation about how that gets interpreted.  This post, more or less in criticism of the designation in an answer about not being named a Top Writer, provides one person's take:


#2 | The Quora Top Writer program awards writers who write highly technical answers to canonical questions in niche topics.

While Quora doesn’t explicitly say that, anyone who has been on Quora long enough can plainly see that they don’t care about writers who write in more general and lighter subjects like humour, hypothetical scenarios, life experiences, storytelling, or survey-type questions—even if those writers write exceptional content.


That's framed a bit negatively, but it's an interesting start.  Another answer goes further (which is similar but more positively expressed, perhaps in part because that person was selected as a Top Writer):


In any ad-supported, content-based web business you have two choices: go for audience, or go for traffic.

The engaging, popular Quorans thrive without awards. They’re awarded by their popularity. Those writers build audience, bringing back thousands of followers everyday.

The ‘Knowledge Writers’ drive traffic – people that are looking for answers that are deeper and more experience-driven than a wiki article, technical reference or tutorial. They’re vital in giving this site authority, and all important in-bound links. My answer to a question like ‘how to fill a box with color in CSS’ is never going to get many upvotes but it gets views, most of them coming from outside this site.


So according to both takes authors writing a certain kind of content would be more likely to be selected, answers that add depth of insight related to specific, perhaps more technical subjects, versus telling stories.

Some of those "engaging, popular Quorans" are great.  It's easy to underestimate what goes into telling a a simple short story or anecdote.  The way some writers use language, and build up a narrow set of ideas into an effective and moving image in just a few sentences is really impressive.

Views, favorite answer links, general self-promotion:

As promised, here is a mention of that Top Writer status in a profile screen capture:

Those "views" stats may or may not sound impressive, and as better-read Quora writers go they're not very high.  Lots of people have over a million answer views, and lots more followers than I do (60-some; I'm not killing the "social-networking" aspect).

I mentioned current views back in an earlier post:

January 31, 2018 version

This was the March 18th version, not long after learning about the Top Writer status change:

You can see why the "keeping score" aspect might be even more addictive than counting Facebook or Instagram likes; viewership stats and their version of "likes" combine.

The one other stat is "followers." The typical social-media interaction approaches would increase those:  follow other people, engage others in comment discussions, and so on.  Including pictures of attractive women in answers probably doesn't hurt.  Writing better answers, and more of them, is a bit less direct but that might work too.

It's all more educational than looking at pictures, or news media sources that all too often describe what Donald Trump is doing.  Love him or hate him that subject gets to be a bit much, along with politics and tragedy in general.

Some favorite Quora posts

I could just skip that part, couldn't I?  I already mentioned what I'd been covering in answers back in February, with a bit about how cultures vary in different countries in that post.  A post two weeks ago about how to find local tea shops went further, even including some favorite tea-themed post links at the end.  Even more recently a post on why microwaving water for tea might not be suitable stemmed directly from answering a question.  I tested that suggested explanation in three rounds of comparison testing, by the way; more will follow on that subject that's still a draft now.

Before getting into my own, I'll mention making one a real life friend through Quora, with a former CA police officer (Gene Lee).  He offered some interesting input on that gun issue that keeps coming up, a rare take that's not really pro or con related to ownership or restrictions:

If some people are so against guns, how would they feel if their life were threatened during a home invasion?

And then close with mentioning some of my answers that go beyond tea and foreign culture.  To me that's one cool part about Quora; it just keeps going related to subject scope.  I just started checking out a random sub-forum button on the Reddit page and that really keeps going further into random topics, almost too far, but Quora covers some ground.


Is there a difference between English Breakfast tea and regular black tea?  (obvious stuff)

Which is the proper way to explain death to a child?  (pretty far off the subject of tea)

Why would anyone like America?  (there are pros and cons)

I am starting blogging. What are some tips on how to start it?  (writing about writing)

Why isn't there ferry service between the islands in Hawaii?  (did I ever mention living there?)

Is Red Bull unhealthy?  (the jury is out, but teens should moderate intake)


Plenty for a short list.  That other post already did a lot with tea theme mentions, but then this blog already goes on about that subject as it is.

Ten years in Thailand; on Thai culture and Quora answers

I've actually been in Thailand four months over ten years now so it's not exactly an anniversary.  More than that milestone other things have triggered me thinking about Thai culture versus US culture.  And of course also "what am I doing with my life?,"  which goes without saying.

One thing stands out as a prompt for introspection, perhaps not what you'd expect:  answering questions on Quora.  Quora is the social media site version of Yahoo answers.  They add functions and tracking to make it more personal, or rather to help people keep score for answering well (I guess, or at least for being popular).  Where Facebook has post and picture likes and a friends count Quora has answer upvotes, views and follower counts.  It's a little odd that knowledge sharing can be a form of entertaining interaction (like reading Wikipedia for fun), or that it would be possible to turn it into a popularity contest, but it all works together.

a recent school fun-day here; kind of a universal experience

About Quora and other forum participation

Initially I was just answering questions about tea, a continuation of this blog writing, and also forum and FB group discussion.  Then I answered a few questions about Thailand, travel, and Buddhism, even parenting.  More recently about Russia (where we vacationed), and even one about snowboarding, reaching back to expertise from a past life stage.

This does circle back to Thai culture, a central theme related to participating there.  I'll stick to meta-level discussion of Quora first, and say a bit about general format and discussion of those ideas, before getting back to that.  That won't include how Quora works, about using direct messages there, or how making comments, following, and giving "upvotes" seems to fold together with view stats.  There are already Quora answers and comments discussions there about all that, and I've not really got it all figured out.

I posted one link to Thai culture themed answer in an online expat group, to see how it would go over.  Expat groups--which are not really an example of native Thai culture at all, but still sort of a variation on that theme--cover a range of contexts.  Some forums are populated by bitter, older, barstool-crowd expats.  Many of those don't really care for Thai culture much, and spend hours a day complaining about local culture in discussion forums, some logging thousands of comments in doing so.  Somehow insulting other expats goes along with that, blaming people for assimilating with local culture, or just calling others names for no reason, trolling.  Good times.

I'll have to keep a description short but I think Jordan Peterson nailed the cause behind that in a Joe Rogan podcast interview.  His point:  you can't make it a practical goal to retire to drink margaritas on the beach, because even if successful after a few weeks of that you'd get bored, sunburned, and be in poor health from all the sugar and alcohol.  I suspect some expats set up low expense, comfortable lives out in the country and set to drinking beer for a pass-time.  Only later does it come up that maintaining limited ties to a local culture and lacking more to do is a real problem, along with the focus on alcohol consumption.  Of course there are well-integrated, personally balanced expats of different ages too, and different lifestyles can work out. 

Q & A or picture posting themes make up most of the rest of expat forum discussion scope, talking about travel or mundane subjects like where to get some type of Western food.  Introspective analysis of subtle culture variations isn't really well received where most of those other subjects are playing out.  Overthinking things goes over badly in general, which is one reason why Quora works:  no matter what obscure theme someone is on others are either right there with them or not seeing those posts.

One comment about that forum-posted answer about standard cultural differences was interesting, if a bit harshly framed.  The point was that it only repeated cliches, eg. Thais smile a lot, Americans are loud.  That was accurate, to an extent.  The funny thing about those cliches is that they're based on something; they're partly true.  It works to use those as a starting point, to describe in what senses they really are accurate, and the limitations of those generalities, or why a specific rough interpretation of them may be completely false. 

Most expats in Thailand aren't alcoholics, per my experience (which goes without saying, really, but it can't hurt to be clear).  About limitations of those two prior generalizations (about loudness and smiling), I'm American and I'm on the quiet and calm side, and there's no reason why any given Thai couldn't be quite somber. 

Let's examine another standard one:  Americans tend to be nationalistic, and to extend that to narrower group loyalties like following sports teams.  To some extent I've just described human nature, across lots of cultures.  It would be more rare for few citizens to associate with nationality, and hard to completely get away from sports enthusiasm, in most countries and cultures.  Not everyone in the US thinks America is number one (or that such a thing could really mean much), or is into sports, although on Superbowl Sunday it probably would seem that a majority are.

More on Quora and answer specifics

This might be a good place to swing back to more specifics, to dig a little deeper.  I'll see what I can turn up from a Quora question answer on something, but first a few of my Quora stats will serve as more background on what goes on there (from when I started this post draft, over a week ago now):

different ways to "keep score"

Answers338 / Questions0
Followers 56 / Following 19
Topics 28
241.7k answer views
29.7k this month

Pretty much what you'd expect, I guess.  It's hard to know what to make of those counts and easier to relate to how they seem to change.


I'll go further on that question about Thais smiling related to citing from an answer there, since it is a starting point on a main difference:


Why do people say that Thai people smile in different occasions than us Westerners?


...a smile can mean someone is happy, that they are trying to be polite when they actually feel neutral, or even to express disapproval or disagreement. That’s it; there are slightly different smiles that mean different things. Or maybe instead it’s that smiling comes across slightly differently when it’s supposed to be the same expression, that the expression seems more genuine when it reflects happiness...  I could swear that I can spot a distinct version of a smile that means “I disagree” though.

It just seems like part of the culture. It’s the same as some Americans being very open and genuine, and others more reserved, and in some other US sub-cultures in some regions a bit less genuine. To put locations to that I’m from PA, the mid-West side, and people are friendly and relatively on the surface, which switches to being more reserved on the East Coast (NYC and such). I visited LA quite a bit at one point and what is displayed on the surface there isn’t necessarily what someone is thinking or feeling. I was just in Russia and people there are more reserved and serious...


So that's it, self-expression norms vary by culture, the context for how open people should be, or how pleasant.  People in Japan are really reserved, to the extent that two people (Thai friends) who lived in Japan mentioned it taking a long time to break into as a social-group there, months just to talk to people normally.  I don't think Thais are actually any more open than Americans (or that much less), and maybe the form only changes related to the emphasis on public persona and appropriate reactions.  I covered more along that line in a post (answer) about Are Russians really as cold-hearted as they are portrayed in the west? 


The short version:  no.  Slightly longer:  again it's just a matter of public persona and how people present themselves in crowds or among people they don't know (per my limited exposure; we did only vacation there, which only goes so far).  Russians seemed to warm up quickly once you actually talk to them, and seemed the most somber when occupied by a commuting routine, which doesn't exactly bring out the best in everyone.  Thais looked like zombies while commuting when I started that here ten years ago, seemingly barely awake for the task, or even nodding off, and now they're all just staring at phones instead.  I could swear I noticed some of those same superficial patterns that one might pick up in comparing NYC and LA when we visited Sydney and Melbourne too.

a friendly Russian woman who helped with instructions in the Moscow metro

It really takes years to feel comfortable with a local culture though, to be able to "get it."  After two or three it felt a lot more familiar here, and after five or six I seemed to turn another corner in regards to relating to it more.

Onto deeper subjects (maybe, sort of).

On Thai beauty ideals (not the deeper subject theme yet)

What are the differences between living in Thailand and the US?

This is the post that was criticized, although I think part of that related to citing a short partial version of it as an intro, which didn't capture much of the detail (as this second partial citation won't).


...there are people living out a broad range of lifestyles in Thailand, which changes an answer more to a range of answers. Even rural people, living on a much lower income, are living modern lives in a sense (eg. entertainment and electronics use is similar...

Culture is something else...  For one person an emphasis on arts or literature is at the core of culture, the higher forms, or for another differences in everyday perspective, eg. how open people tend to be, in general. I’ll speak more to the latter here, how people tend to come across, extending into minor differences in worldview and outlook that shape everyday experience... To me minor variations are usually not significant...

...people share more attributes in common than they don’t share that separates them, across different countries and cultures...  Social roles are quite similar, and shared stuff to own and communication forms bring people together more now...  All other things being equal—which is never how things work—I’d probably be more comfortable in my own country, back in the US. Language issues drop out there and there’s less to deal with related to differences, for example observing Loy Krathong versus Halloween (not held at the exact same time but not far off).

my kids, one a bit put off by something, the other "as pikachu"

...It would be nice to describe the difference in Thai everyday perspective versus in the US. Lots of little, subtle differences add up to a worldview that’s not identical, even among IT professionals, even if both share lots in terms of broad strokes...  Humor isn’t the same; there’s one. My son—who is bilingual—says that he can’t make jokes in English.  I think it’s more because Thai humor is slightly different instead of that he can’t shift the same patterns from one language he is fluent in to another he also is. 


The water cooler talk in my office, which looks exactly like an office back in the US, is slightly different, in ways that would be hard to pin down...  Here I would always be a foreigner, always a little off the norm, approaching “getting” their worldview but never completely there.


That's a bit over half the answer but it catches the broad strokes; I mention a few specifics but mainly talk around differences and a bit more there.  I think beyond not designing an active life for their retirement that issue of integration is the other problem some expats are having.  If a foreigner can become completely fluent in the local language, eat the foods, work with Thais, share hobbies, etc. then they can relatively completely integrate, and the more of those things that remain separate the harder it is.

I really do like Thailand, of course.  My two favorite people are Thai, and I think it makes it easier raising kids, since shared experiences of changing diapers transitioning to going to piano and swim lessons are similar in lots of places.

a better look at that pikachu look

That's probably almost enough rambling on about Thai and US culture, isn't it?  I'll let this diverge a bit more with one more answer anecdote, not as directly related to culture.


What is your “only in Thailand” moment?


...[while ordained as a Thai monk] I once went out with an older monk to visit his father in the hospital outside of Bangkok, in the country, and realized in the taxi that was my first time in Thailand not being around anyone who spoke any English. I felt a bit of panic, but there was nothing to do.

with our cat, who I met there, a kitten then and now a ten year old

We stopped somewhere and looked over fruit at a stand (monks don’t buy fruit, or anything, by the way; they live off alms-round offerings), so maybe the driver was interested. I knew very few words but I wanted to try to use a couple I did know, so I asked a young girl selling the fruit if it was sweet (wan, mai). She looked a little uncomfortable and simply walked away. 

I only later found out that “sweet” can also be used to describe a person, maybe in a similar way as in English to describe pleasant character, and she probably thought I was asking about her, or even hitting on her, even though I was a monk, standing there in orange robes. It loses a little because there was no “shock-value” moment of me understanding it, but that did sum up my experience in a different way; I just didn’t catch everything.


I guess that I still don't completely catch everything.  My own kids can switch to Thai and know that I'll understand less than half of what they say, and they have to explain Thai culture to me.  At least the older one can; I'm at least even with a four year old's perspective on local culture, just not for long.

On that last trip to Russia (a subject I wrote about here in this blog, and in Quora answers) my son explained that in Thai culture if you lose something small it's a foreshadowing of losing something important, which drove my wife to great extremes to find a missing mitten.  That mitten was stuck between the seats in a tour van, but we kept being picked up for outings in other vehicles by the same guides after, and their staff weren't turning it up.  No one was ever going to explain that losing-things generality to me (superstition?), except for some reason he decided to, even though just answering direct questions is usually outside the scope of his interests.

somehow that image does describe him

Family relationships are seen differently here, emphasized more.  Public image is more important.  Formal speech plays a larger role, or rather changing communication form according to social level, and to some extent adjusting content too.  Small-scale prohibitions like not touching someone's head stick around, but that sort of thing and the superstitions they still adhere to don't amount to all that much (like you can't point at a rainbow, or my family members can't sleep in a room without either a window open or an air conditioner or heater moving the air around).

Loy Krathong; meant here to represent Thai culture

Meanwhile on the larger scale ethics are similar enough.  Marital infidelity is just as common, if not more so (although it's not my thing, obviously).  There is a word for "someone you only sleep with," gik, while in the American expression you have to spell that out as a string of concepts: "friends with benefits."  People really are more the same than different though, there are just lots of small differences that make "culture" a real thing, and foreign cultures something interesting to experience.


I should add that Thais are nice, and to some extent that pleasantness isn't just form.  But then I've liked the people in pretty much all the countries we've visited, a count that's starting to add up.  Either I'm just not choosy or maybe there are positive aspects in different cultures, or people in general are just ok in some sense.

Race and culture issues here and in the US

I just had lunch with friends visiting from the US, initially online contacts, now two meetings in friends "IRL," and a lot of these themes came up.  They have visited a number of times before, and were just here for something like six weeks, so they sort of have one foot in each culture, or at the least are familiar with here.  It's always interesting considering culture shifts back in the US, but that's something we'd talked through a lot more before online.

We talked about problems my son faces being bi-racial and multi-national, and compared those to theirs (they're not white, but that are completely American).  My son's mixed race / culture status is nothing overwhelming but it's not positive for him, not even neutral; he has problems to deal with.  He's moving into figuring out who he'll become, which I already covered in a few rounds of life-crises. 

my wife in an older form of transportation we took there

It's funny how for me beyond those kinds of broad strokes, making peace with specific Thai culture issues, a different level of comfort with experiencing things here emerges.  My wife and I just went on a short outing to Buriram, Isaan, to the Northeast of Thailand, and it felt oddly familiar to be in a small town again there.  I wrote more on that trip in this relatively neutral expat discussion forum post).


It's not familiar to me there in Buriram, at least not in the sense that it ties back to anything in my background from prior to a decade ago.  I'm originally from a rural area but it's much different, and I'm definitely still a foreigner.  At least in Russia I could pass for a Russian, at a glance, but not so much in Isaan.  It was an odd feeling, for once trying to pin down why I felt in-place versus out of place.


About that picture of the rickshaw / samloh, two funny things came up related to using that transportation.  That guy was a bit drunk, and it seemed like he didn't catch that we were asking about going several kilometers away, which really took it out of him.  Two street dogs went with us--his friends, it seemed--who he kept yelling instructions at to help them not screw up running along in traffic (very light traffic, by Bangkok standards).  It almost seemed like they went along to keep an eye on him instead, to help with things if something went wrong.

slightly more standard transport, a pick-up truck version of a local bus

So much for funneling to a central theme conclusion.  I'm not sure which parts of Thai culture became more familiar, or if it's just that spending a few days alone with my wife reminded me of that earlier time in our lives when we had the freedom to investigate Oahu together once in awhile.  I also think the small town vibe worked for me.

When we were in that pick-up truck shuttle (in the picture above) one part of it occurred to me:  I really didn't care how those people in the truck with us felt about me being a foreigner.  It probably helped that they didn't seem to care, although looking at that picture one woman might not have been keen on having her picture taken.

For a long time that had given me pause, how I might come across, and what I should do as an input to that.  It seems like letting it completely drop might be one key to other people also not really being concerned about it.  I've always thought there was a built-in flaw in the idea "it's not my business what other people think of me."  One part of that is about dropping obligations to appear a certain way, or even to fulfill a standard role, possibly ignoring societal norms, and another is about letting the internal friction go instead.  Taken in that second sense it completely works, and in the first it's more about bowing out of shared social obligations, and then maybe it doesn't.

It's been interesting offering perspectives on making those types of adjustments here in Quora, and also answering trivial questions, like Why does Bangkok smell?

monthly stats at time of posting; my score is improving