Left-over Americans; dating and marriage problems explained

 

I've been watching some "men's content" lately, about dating and other perspectives from conservative men on Youtube.  Sure it's a little annoying in some ways, the biases and assumptions, but they make some good points.  I think most of it even works, but of course not in the form most typically presented.  It's all interesting to me as a set of social trends, even though it's not personally relevant.

One main point is that feminist women ruin dating experience for both men and women by sleeping around in their 20s and 30s, instead of seeking out committed relationships.  This shrinks the pool of prospects for typical men, and some end up going through life single, as some women also do.  Many men then "go their own way;" they drop the dating or long term pair bonding theme entirely.

Does this work though; is this really what is happening?  Sure; it's partly that.  Maybe the part that works best is that on dating apps 80% of all women select 20% of all men (or maybe it's 90-10, this is just the generality), and then 80% of all men select 80% of all women.  It still doesn't go well for most people, beyond the 20% not getting matched, because most women can sleep with the smaller set of most attractive guys using the app, but there's no need for them to actually date anyone, because they are matched so often.  It ends up working for hook-ups.  To be clear I've never downloaded or used a dating app; I'm passing on the take I'm seeing described, generally relatively consistently, but as summarized here expressed from a narrow and biased perspective.

All this extends to relationships, per this repeated shared understanding, not just to casual physical encounters.  Most women are trying to date a smaller set of more desirable guys, who are more attractive, wealthier, and to a lesser extent with a decent personality.  The "hook-up" theme repeats in a different form; there is no need for those guys to settle for one relationship partner, so they can serial date.  The women can too, just in a broader proportion related to who can participate.  

The cycle--as described--doesn't end until those most desirable guys finally decide to settle down, and then the medium level of desirable women need to settle for whoever else is still around.  Of course this is never presented as a theme everyone experiences; the traditional model for people just dating someone they like still works for many people, someone who has shared interests, without overriding concern over looks or wealth.  Then these people can marry at any age, not just in their late 30s.

One more aside on this "desirability" theme, and I'll get to the details they propose, and how their model may be wrong.  This type of content really embraces that use of a 10 point number scale for how attractive someone is, as if "a 6" might be a 5 or 7, but it's that clear, that you can objectively tell.  I think that doesn't work, but still the general points don't change; physical attractiveness is a real thing, a main input to people choosing who they date or partner with in a longer term.  

Judgement about attractiveness is consistent, just perhaps not that consistent.  Then any of these content creator / influencer types allow that personality enters in, beyond wealth also being a factor for men, so they're not setting up a completely unreasonable model.  They just overemphasize some patterns, and I think in the end they're missing one main one.  It's easiest to specify by citing an example from a different culture.

Left-over women in China

This theme has been discussed for years, of how there is a large set of wealthy, attractive, desirable women in China who are left without marriage partners past the ages of 30 and 40.  Why?  Sources interpret this differently, but the main theme seems to be that women can date and marry up a level related to social hierarchy, or at their own level, but not "down."  Attractiveness, the main emphasis in this Western social media commentary model, also enters in, but there is more focus on finding a relationship partner to solidify social role and position, and to start a family.  This ties more to social status.  

As a result there are more higher level social status women than can pair up with the equivalent higher social status level men, and some lower status men remain single as well.  This is where all this is headed; I think this pattern underlies what is happening in the US much more than is recognized.

It's hard to describe what that social status issue is like within Asian cultures.  I live in Thailand now, and have for 16 years, and it's completely different from the US here.  Let me give an example:  you use different terms of respect for people of different social levels in Thailand, or even change formal language use slightly with different people.  It's as if there would be three different words for "sir," and you would use whichever relates to that social connection, depending if they are on your social status level, or above or below it.  The lower or even level term of respect might translate as closer to friend, dude, or bud, or to mate in British or Australian English.  I can't describe how it all works, or how judgments work out on the fly, or at least it's too difficult and tiresome to offer examples, so I'll leave it at that.  Social status is more important, much more immediately relevant in terms of daily interactions, and clearer to everyone.  Then it also means more for who you should or can date or marry.

In the US there are the three classes defined by wealth, low, medium, and high, and those are a bit flexible related to potential for moving up or down.  It's not the same thing.  In the US as well someone could be born into a good family and not pursue wealth, and others would (or could) still recognize that they are from a different background, and placed higher, in a very rough sense.  That's an odd exception.  The same can happen in relation to "new money;" people can come from modest means and more common (lower) social level and never take up the status, perspective, and practices of the traditional higher class.  No need to name names or types; you get it.

To me it works to set all that aside though; in general wealth defines social level, in the US.  Or looked at a different way there just isn't the same emphasis on social status levels, even though to some extent it still works.  There are sub-cultures, and even different language forms, that divide poor people from urban areas and wealthy people born into more affluent circumstances.  

The language form social level marker is especially interesting.  At my second engineering career job in Baltimore I met with forklift drivers who I literally could not understand, even though they were speaking English.  The owners of my company were clearly "old money;" they could easily slip into speech patterns followed by NPR announcers, although one of two owners generally didn't, out of preference.  My roommates there were "new money;" they were well off, and made a point of showing that off, often excessively, but it wasn't about being raised in a higher social level sub-group.  They used the same generally neutral form of English I did.

Back to the Chinese left-over women and men theme (higher status women, and lower status men), from a distance it looks like these women are not appealing because they are too independent, or too wealthy, out of reach for too many people to date or marry.  Some of that could apply, but it seems the main root cause is this underlying imbalance, that women "marrying up" leads to gaps at the two related ends.  Then whether any one person remains unmarried or not depends on lots of circumstances and inputs.  The women tend to be urban, living in developed areas, and the men rural, retaining lower status roles in those places.  

And that's it, the whole model and interpreted pattern.  Here I'm going to claim that's part of what is going on in the US too, that it's one input.

I haven't supported this with any references.  This runs long focusing on the Western social media commentary examples, the main theme.  Although it applies to men and women Google search for the women's side turns up the most related content.  This Wikipedia article on this "sheng nu" theme covers the basics:

The National Bureau of Statistics of the People's Republic of China (NBS) and state census figures reported approximately 1 in 5 women between the ages of 25-29 remain unmarried.[1] In contrast, the proportion of unwed men in that age range is much higher, sitting at around 1 in 3.[4] In a 2010 Chinese National Marriage Survey, it was reported that 9 out of 10 men believe that women should be married before they are 27 years old.[1]...

...A study of married couples in China noted that men tended to marry down the socio-economic ladder.[4] "There is an opinion that A-quality guys will find B-quality women, B-quality guys will find C-quality women, and C-quality men will find D-quality women," says Huang Yuanyuan. "The people left are A-quality women and D-quality men. So if you are a leftover woman, you are A-quality."[1] A University of North Carolina demographer who studies China's gender imbalance, Yong Cai, further notes that "men at the bottom of society get left out of the marriage market, and that same pattern is coming to emerge for women at the top of society".[20]

That's not what these "men's content" guys are saying at all; it's not even cited as a related input.  They don't completely set aside this potential trend but it's not part of a main cause and effect, in that same form.

Note that there are many more Chinese women than men (related to birth selection by identified gender); that enters in.  The proportion for people remaining single implies this is not even close to being a single main cause.  The rest of that Wikipedia article unpacks all that.

Reconsidering US culture

What if it's mostly this that is occurring in the US, instead of these individual behavior and perspective themes these social media content producers are proposing?  We would expect the main people left out of finding long term partners to be higher status level women, which in the US probably really does translate back to looks more than wealth, or social image tied to family background and such.  On the male side we would expect less desirable men to also suffer from this pattern, the "1s, 2s, and 3s," using their terminology and attractiveness ranking system.  

Maybe this describes the pattern as well as what all of these content producers are proposing.  At the end of this review it seems to need to be shifted a little, because the form is different.  The range of women being left out includes more middle-range level of appeal potential partners, and then again more men at the lower level are left taking the hit, but also plenty in the middle.

It wouldn't need to apply only to people in their 30s and 40s, past the threshold of normal earlier life dating and mate selection.  The same pattern would occur in everyone's teens and 20s; less attractive men would almost never date, and more attractive women mostly all would, but in the latter case it wouldn't work out as long term relationships for all those women, and also for few of those men.

These are already the basic points that I intended to make.  So far I haven't cited any references, any sources describing these two sets of patterns, and of course I can do that.  On the Chinese side interpretations can vary, so I've filtered those to a simple summary that rings true to me, with others focusing on other themes (eg. more independent women aren't as appealing within that cultural perspective).  

I don't follow so much of this "men's content" that I can say that it's all consistent, but I have watched a good bit of it, and what seems to be 3 or 4 representative examples are all unified in perspective.  

To be clear these are not related to the extremist "incel" theme perspective; that's something else.  That does seem to translate these personal problems over to misogynist perspective range.  More misogynist; these other guys are blaming women for the problem, for sure, often loosely tied back to "feminism," which isn't really one narrow theme, and people can interpret that however they like.  A couple of related female content producers overlap with those themes, sharing related but different ideas, but I'm not getting into that here, or how a broad range of online discussion groups relate to all of this.  It doesn't develop the core of what I've expressed further but I'll clarify the ideas by citing examples.

Men's content theme summary and citation

A fairly clear summary of the pattern I've described, the common model these guys promote, is presented in a commentary on a video of a woman describing dating problems here, on the Hoe Math" Tik Tok channel.

To be clear I'm not accepting this as a universal, completely accurate model, or accepting these interpretations directly as offered.  My point is that there is something to this.  In this chart that guy explains how women can "date up" in relation to attractiveness and desirability (wealth + other factors), but then would need to "settle" for a longer term partner on their own level, or close to that.  That women describing these same problems in the video he is commenting on really is just framing them in a different way, but seems to be covering the same issues.

Isn't this take misogynistic, since the channel name includes "hoe," and it's a critique of women's dating related self-awareness, putting all of the blame for these issues on women, when men are also involved?  Sure, to some extent.  That alone doesn't make it wrong, but I think it only partly works anyway.  The parts that work better are interesting.  It's too much to explore as a tangent here but some of this related framework seems insightful (explained here):

A second related channel is called Better Bachelor, with typical content summarized in this image and caption:

Setting aside if these ideas completely work, or if they are misogynistic (both of which I already addressed), it's interesting that people would choose to watch this kind of content regularly.  The main point is pretty simple:  women have ruined dating, and all the more so marriage, and many men have turned away from it.  Then why watch a video saying that every other day?  It's not to get new information, although the graphic summary and breakdowns in the "Hoe Math" reference could work for that, it's to feel a connection to others experiencing the same thing, by way of viewing repetitive content.  Eventually a new idea or extra twist would come up, but almost all of the content by all of these guys is nearly identical.

To clarify by adding one more detail, a common theme covered, these guys blame women for over-emphasizing their attractiveness (a little odd, really; that is somewhat universal Western culture now), and not showing modesty in clothing choices, and for sleeping with too many guys, the "body count" theme.  Again the standard idea is that the most attractive guys, described as "chad" types, are sleeping with these women, serial dating or just hooking up, and these other guys are feeling left out, not participating in either.  

This Better Bachelor content producer, who goes by the nickname Joker, admits that he dated a number of women when younger, and then all this pattern either dawned on him or set in as relevant (excluding him from being selected), once he reached a certain age.  Or both, it seems.  I don't doubt all that framing; I accept his take on his own background and perspective shift as genuine and accurate.

These two examples don't seem overly conservatively biased, or negative towards females in general, beyond blaming them entirely for a lack of awareness and the existence of these identified patterns (which probably is quite unfair, and is negative).  The more desirable guys who sleep with them are related, of course, but for them--these guys offering the analysis--that's a natural choice for those guys, that the women should be avoiding.  How?  Dressing more conservatively, not sleeping around, and seeking out committed relationships prior to their late 30s.  If the same guys saying that dated and slept with lots of women in their 20s it kind of doesn't work.  Or I suppose it still could, just in a more limited form.

Rich Cooper works as an example of a more conservative and slightly more negative perspective, covering some of that in discussion in this group discussion video on male and female roles related to hookup culture, who is to blame.  That particular video wasn't interesting, so not a great example; the point is to mention someone on a different part of the spectrum.  He makes conclusions like "never date a single mother," which can work as a personal preference mandate, but he offers it as good universal advice to all men, which I don't think applies well as a universal directive.  The ex-girlfriend that I cared for most was a single mother, and caring for her daughter made it hard to accept the end of that relationship.  It was a career focus and a move on her part that broke us up, as much as any one factor did, nothing to do with her status as a mother.

Take-aways

There is no point in considering all this unless someone is a part of those dating concerns.  That excludes me, but I still find it an interesting cultural sub-theme.

I think the generalities those content producers identify all work, to a limited extent, but they require some placement.  The ideas are generally offered as absolute truths and directives, when really they're just part of a broader range of causes and effects.  I think the emphasis on blaming women for problems with men and women dating is essentially wrong; individuals need to sort out those issues as individuals and couples, both men and women.

They seem to never really pull back to the broader scope that the review of Chinese "leftover" single people often does; these broad patterns are going to cause some individuals to remain single, not just related to individual perspective and choices in single cases.

I see this as comparable to a game of musical chairs; plenty of men and women do date and marry in their 20s, and plenty date around in their 20s and 30s instead.  By around 40 many seek long term stability and family life, and some people are left out of that pairing up process.  Men might date women a little younger, in some cases, but still the same pattern occurs for both in roughly the same age range.  

What these guys are missing is that the people not pairing up, equivalent to those left standing in a musical chairs game, relate to a range of individual circumstances, only some of which they identify, but there are surely also general patterns in who is excluded.  It doesn't work perfectly well to say that on the men's side those guys will be "1s, 2s, and 3s," and on the women's "9s, and 10s," but something like that could be happening.  Or maybe it's not just that?

In the Hoe Math and Better Bachelor videos they thought the woman offering related commentary was attractive (the one cited and shown in an image here), probably a 7 per their judgment (or maybe an 8; she is pretty), so the pattern doesn't seem to completely match in this case.  It seems like the form is different in the US problem, an outcome from everyone not trying to find a life-partner in their 20s.  As those guys summarize women who are medium level attractive (6-8) can sleep with very attractive men, just not marry them, so on the US culture side that's the range that's experiencing even more problems, an even more vicious scramble "once the music stops" in their late 30s.

I don't know which inputs actually work as the main broad generality.  Even following these "men's content" producers analysis men can "marry down" to an extent (again related more to attractiveness than social level as in China, with wealth more a factor for men), so it would seem plenty of the most attractive women would also end up remaining single.  

To me all of this works better as food for thought than as a model for how relationships and dating patterns really work out in practice.  It would all vary too much by individual experience.  People can date whoever they want, and marry a partner for their own reasons, on their own time-table, with or without all this emphasis on appearance and wealth.  Common interests, perspective, and values are being set aside too much in all this.  But it's still interesting to consider.

2003 Malaysian stored Nan Nuo sheng pu'er

 

A new local tea friend passed on a sample of what seemed like quite promising aged sheng not long ago, a 2003 Nan Nuo sheng pu'er, that had been stored in Penang, Malaysia.  It was really good.  This isn't about that tea background or that friend, just about the experience.  

It's local shop in-house product from that storage area, where he bought it, at Ten Yee tea, this place.

Review:

Infusion # 1:  it's good, I guess.  This round is subtle, even after a rinse, and I get the impression that it might stay subtle, regardless of how much it's pushed.  Then that can still be fine, if the character present is positive, and if the depth added by extra feel and aftertaste add more impression of intensity and complexity.  I think a broad range of high quality aged sheng, that many people really prefer, is all something I've not learned to appreciate.  

I was just drinking an 8 year old Yiwu recently that highlighted how that goes.  It wasn't in an optimum place, for not being absolutely and fully transitioned, but it was pretty far along, for having spent almost all that time here in Bangkok.  Tones present were warm; it had lost all the youthful character, as far as you could tell.  I think deeper tone aspect intensity will still increase, but it also might fade some more, not leaving much experience range to appreciate, some residual sense of depth and feel.

As flavors go this is clean, and warm in range (of course).  Flavors are subtle enough that it's hard for me to break it down; it could be interpreted as mineral, leather, tobacco, spice, lots of different things.  All that is positive; it lacks the woody character many lower quality sheng evolves towards.  I'll try a next round brewed a little stronger.

#2:  it doesn't need to be quite this strong; it's nice that it could ramp up intensity and overshoot an optimum so quickly.  Tones are much warmer.  It includes a little geosmin, towards a dirt scent.  It's clean in effect, so not the murky, earthy peat range shou often expresses, something else altogether.  Storage inputs don't seem to contribute mustiness to it, or any off flavors, although those heavy tones must relate to fermentation transition and therefore indirectly to storage.  

Mineral range is pronounced.  Other earthy range is harder to place, more like the odd scent of driftwood.  Even that mineral includes some novel range; people bring up petrichor, the scent after it rains, and one part might correspond to that.  It seems like spice range might evolve further, as if that's there, but not easy to single out at this stage.

#3:  better with infusion strength dialed into my preference better.  It's clearly good, I'm just not as clear on how well it matches my preference.  I suspect that for people accustomed to appreciating better aged sheng that would come more naturally.  Then it sounds like I might be implying that there is some objectively positive range everyone should learn to appreciate, and then agree on as positive.  I don't see subjective preference that way, although that is the most common take on that theme in more experienced tea circles.  You are supposed to like what others like, and all join together in appreciating high quality, and objectively positive tea aspects.  Maybe I'm just behind the curve.

That heaviness from wet storage is easier to detect now, the familiar basement scent range.  It wouldn't require the most humid range of storage to draw that out, but it would be heavier in wetter stored teas, and slightly different.  It's so moderate here this doesn't taste like Malaysian stored tea.  Maybe most of what I've tried of them--not many examples--weren't stored under ideal conditions.

The set of warm tones is interesting, how many interpretations might fit for that.  It could be read as geosmin (dirt, sort of), warm mineral, including petrichor, leather, driftwood or aged wood, or within spice range, especially incense spice (the set I don't remember to distinguish between; frankincense, myhrr, sandalwood, and so on).  Some would say this tastes like camphor.  People seem to tend to attribute anything remotely like that to that description or to avoid using it, and for as distinctive and strong as actual camphor tends to be I don't make a connection so often.  I would guess that this probably tastes a lot like one thing I'm not familiar with, probably within the aromatic incense spice range.

#4:  it's a little cleaner, maybe from evolving through earlier rounds, losing slight rough edges, or else maybe just from brewing intensity variation.  I'd expect that it is transitioning.  This is probably a good place to take a round off descriptions and cover where it shifts to next round.

Related to this being too subtle that concern largely dropped out, but of course it's not in the intensity and complexity range of factory teas, aged to any extent under any conditions.  It's not far off, and preference would determine if this level is better, as good, or not as favorable.  Again I get this impression many would see this general character as somewhat optimum, maybe even objectively and in general, not just in relation to their own preference.

#5:  it's not ideal for a tasting write-up that this is going to go through subtle shifts in flavors I'm not familiar with.  The range is pleasant.  In order to place how much or how little I like it I keep considering how often I would want to drink this, or teas quite similar to it.  Not too often, even completely setting aside any issues related to cost or access.  I like younger sheng experience more, and to me there is something catchy about an aged version that retains more intensity and complexity, that doesn't just present a decent balance of an integrated and similar flavor range, that leans toward the subtle side.  This isn't an example of a tea that completely faded; that's something else.  But it does express a narrow range of positive flavor, and that's it.

It's nice doing a single version tasting, not struggling to make it to these rounds for ingesting too much tea.  It still gets old writing notes and spending the time focusing.

#6:  it improves, a little, a first change in a couple of rounds.  Aromatic spice range is different and more pronounced.  Feel gains a bit of sappiness, a little more complexity, and aftertaste extends just a little, where before it had been limited.  I suppose with a limited range of positive transition, or just any variation, that judgment from the last round would shift a little, and it would seem more pleasant and interesting.  It seemed like minor shift in infusion strength and some transition on the tea's side caused that.

#7:  intensity might be fading a little; it's probably time to extend infusion time slightly.  The same catchy main flavor aspect from last round stands out.

#8:  Complexity and intensity is good, and flavor range is positive.  This probably does continuously taste more and more like camphor.  I get the sense that many others would really love and value this tea and tea experience.  It's ok for me, pleasant and novel, nice for the quality level and style being quite favorable.  If I was drinking better aged sheng more frequently maybe I would like it even more, related to being dialed in to appreciate the range more.  

#9:  I lost track of timing messing around online and brewed this for at least a minute; of course it's a lot stronger.  The effect is still pleasant that way.  A camphor aspect had already been stronger, and it stands out all the more brewed at a higher intensity.  The rest dials up too, warmer mineral tone, mild and clean geosmin input, spice range, and what could be interpreted as aromatic wood.  It's nice.

Conclusion:

If anything it was as positive or more so for a few more longer late rounds; it was nice the way it finished so strong, in a couple of senses.  This started a little slow but turned out to be one of the higher quality sheng versions I've ever tried, never mind just recently.

It made me think through my preferences a bit, about what range I might explore if my tea budget was more open, and if I would acclimate to preference to teas like this.  Maybe.  As things stand it was a pleasant and novel experience.

Thai Coffee and Tea Fest Expo

 

I recently attended a Thailand Coffee and Tea Fest Expo, in the Queen Sirikit Convention Center.  Typically those events aren't worth attending, related to specialty tea interest, but I had a good experience once meeting an owner of the Kokang Myanmar tea producer so it's easy to be more hopeful than expectations can support.  That was an event up at Impact, an hour north of city center, probably listed as the Thailand Coffee Fest here, not even mentioning tea in the event title.  That event summary article author was not aware of this event planning.

The short version is that it was a bust; there was no Chinese tea there, and no Thai specialty tea (no Indian tea either; I'll get to what was there).  There was mostly coffee, of course, and then in tea range also matcha, and very little in the way of other tea scope.  Only two booths, beyond matcha scope:  a Harney and Sons version, and another selling blends that were essentially in the same range.  I tried a couple of Harney and Sons teas; they were nice.  I might have considered buying a jasmine green tea version they were selling, that I had tried, except that they only sold it in a tea-bag version, and I'd prefer loose tea.  At least they were promoting tea.

I met an old friend, Pop / Danitha, who is an owner of Koto Tea Space, a cafe that also sells matcha, there promoting the matcha sales.  She guessed that there was no Chinese tea because it was mainly directed towards shop owners, not tea enthusiasts, so there would only be booths carrying what small shops or cafes would want to buy.  I didn't see anything related to bubble tea there, so that theory doesn't seem to completely hold up, but it could still be mostly right.  At any rate Chinese tea just wasn't happening, or even Thai tea.  I've seen Thai producers host booths at that sort of thing before, and vendors oriented towards Chinese teas, but it just didn't happen to be there.

Lots of matcha related shops were; maybe less than 10, but close enough to that.  That's still not so much compared to dozens of booths and larger vendors there relating to coffee.  It was nice seeing so many small roaster or importer outlets for coffee; apparently that interest is booming.  There were ample equipment sales for that, and larger and more elaborate vendor booths from larger mainstream vendors.  There were even coffee brewing events, which weren't running just then, but there were notices about them.

There were a few shops selling ceramics, hand made coffee and teaware cups; those were nice.  One let me try coffee in two different cups, claiming that this would change the sensory / aspect experience.  It didn't seem to, to me.  I have a badly deviated septum so my sense of smell isn't great.  The related aromatic flavor component sensation that occurs in your rear nasal passages seems more normal, that it doesn't cost me much in terms of sense of flavor, but I guess that I would never really know.

teaware from Aoon Pottery & As.is

the small black ones had the nicest feel, but I usually use white cups

Pop's main business is the Koto Tea Space, and it represented the closest thing to a specialty tea theme in the event (really a related supply company, Chajin Tea Supply).  They had exhibits about matcha, and offered samples of a few kinds.  I tried matcha with coconut.  It was ok, but the umami isn't all that familiar to me, so it also just tasted like seaweed.  I've drank matcha before, and have reviewed a number of sencha and gyokuro versions in this blog, but I'm far removed from that experience now since it has been awhile.  A good version of matcha bumps the umami experience to an unfamiliar level, and the coconut flavor input made it harder to relate to instead of easier, or at least it seemed that way.  

It was nice talking about Pop's business theme, how all that goes, but it doesn't seem relevant to a summary of expo experience here.  Her cafe would be interesting to check out, off to one side of Chinatown, more or less, and they hold different themed tastings, of course all related to Japanese teas.

her related tea supply business, what was represented there

That was really about it.  I tried a jasmine white tea from Harney and Sons, and that one at Pop's station.  There was one other stall selling Thai flavored teas that I didn't really explore, and beyond that there was only more matcha.

So I walked around a rice expo beside that coffee and tea version, and ended up buying red and black Thai rice.  I've had a black version of black sticky rice (glutinous rice, khao neow) but never black standard rice.  My wife is into brown and other colored rice versions, so red rice is familiar.  It's not usually as delicious as white rice, but I bought it for her, not out of my own interest.

two kgs of rice was 200 baht, about $6, a good price

It would've seemed more anticlimactic if that wasn't what I expected to occur.  I would've thought a main Thai oolong producer might have been there, or another commercial tea vendor, along the lines of Harney and Sons, but just something else.  A couple of places had matcha ice cream for sale; that was a nice extra offering, but I didn't buy any.

It's kind of a shame that there isn't more going on with tea in Thailand.  That expo didn't represent all of it, of course.  Oolong production is fairly mainstream, and the sheng "pu'er" versions I keep writing about are appreciated by some people.  I just wrote about a dozen of my favorite or most popular tea outlets in Bangkok, and nothing in that expo related at all to any of that, except that I mentioned Pop's business there.

The contrast with coffee tells the story.  There were about 40 or 50 small booths related to independent coffee companies, and then at least a dozen larger businesses represented in much more elaborate settings.  Some had a lot of espresso machines and such on display, and some simulated cafe or physical store environments in well-crafted structures.  It's like how beer companies manage displays in such event exhibits, just not quite that elaborate, without the music, activities, and enthusiastic staff.  Then for tea there was a mixed range of a dozen booths, with not a single one really focused on loose specialty tea.  Harney and Son's selling tins of tea bags was the closest to that; not much of what was there even seemed to be loose tea.  Of course I gave it a quick survey, not really a thorough review, since if loose English Breakfast Blend turned up I wouldn't want that anyway.

Specialty tea is not having a moment in Thailand or in Bangkok, per my experience, not just at that expo.  It does help to clarify that small shops selling brewed tea that source loose tea versions, probably typically mostly low grade Shui Xian, buy that from Chinatown shops, so there is no need for a new vendor to hype a new form of that offering.  The oolong that was missing was a real gap; usually one of the main producers will promote their versions in events like that.  I suppose that never related to enough extra business level sales to keep up with attending events.  Bubble tea is absolutely everywhere in Bangkok; it's odd there weren't a couple of supply companies selling versions of that, or maybe there were and I overlooked them.

city view from the convention center; a nice walking and running track surrounds that lake

the sunset later on

Comparing 2016 and 2017 Vietnamese and Thai sheng versions

 

I've been going on and on about how some South East Asian sheng versions don't have the right character to age well, and here's a chance to look into that further.  One sample Steve of Viet Sun passed on with an order from them, and another Wawee Tea passed on with an order from them (many thanks to both!).  Let's see how they are.

It's interesting considering vendors' takes on teas, which I typically never review prior to making tasting notes, as I didn't this time either.  Here's the Viet Sun listing:

Thượng Sơn 2016  (selling for $98 for a standard 357 gram cake; not bad)

A really nice tea from Thượng Sơn, Hà Giang made in the spring of 2016.

This along with the Thượng Sơn 2022 tea really showcase just how special the Thượng Sơn terroir is.

This tea was made from the same plus a couple of adjacent ancient tree gardens as the Thượng Sơn 2022 and was processed in a smiliar manner.

This tea has been aging in climate controlled storage (around 24-27 degrees Celsius and 70 degrees humidity). It still retains its heady alpine fragrance but has taken on some pleasing camphor and fragrant wood/ caramel notes. Heavy sweetness and low-medium bitterness/ astringency.

Rich huigan and strong qi. Nice tea for evenings and cooler days.

I enjoy drinking this one along with its 2022 counterpart to really get an idea of the transition from the new tea to its current state.

Interesting!  Specific interpretation never matches between people passing on impressions but that does match my general take on the tea.  It was good; more complex, intense, and positively transitioned than I expected, by a good bit.

I couldn't find any sort of product listing for the Wawee version, and search only brought up this Instagram mention of it:

Wawee Tea 2017 sheng (Pitakvavee Series):

Raw Pu-erh tea, aged 7 years.

Net weight 357 g.

The taste is very sweet and juicy.

So they were selling this as cakes, even though the sample they sent me hadn't been pressed, it was maocha / loose.  "Sweet and juicy" isn't much to go on, but I can see if that matches.  I've already reviewed this tea, so I know what to expect; here it's more for a point of comparison with the other.  

It had aging potential; it's not going to be a version that just fades away, or starts to just taste like wood, as some versions can.  I already knew that it was good, and pleasant to drink at this age, even though I end up speculating that this aging  / fermentation stage might not be optimum.

Review:  

Thuong So Spring 2016 sheng:  interesting!  Warm mineral base stands out first, and a complex feel structure.  This is barely started infusing, so these will just be initial thoughts.  It's pretty far through aging transition.  Seven years is awhile, but it can just depend on storage conditions, and this was fairly tightly pressed.  I've tried decade old sheng that wasn't nearly as far through transition, surely stored under drier conditions.  

The general character of this is fine, as it should be, not a case of a sheng version seeming to fade or oxidize more than it fermentation transitions.  Feel might include a little extra dryness.  It's as well to hold off on flavor list and other judgments until next round.  I can add that I've tried a purple leaf version that was among the driest in feel of any teas I've ever had recently, a Yunnan sheng version, and this isn't completely unlike that, just not nearly as intense (that related dry feel).

Wawee Tea 2017 sheng (Pitakvavee Series):  much lighter, just in appearance alone.  A different mineral base stands out in this, a drier version, which also includes some warm tones.  This is going to be a mineral intensive session!  Complex flavors and some sweetness is already developing, even though this is barely started.  It seems warmer toned than the color implies that it would.  Feel has more conventional sheng astringency structure than the other version.

Vietnamese sheng, round 2:  brewed tea color evened up in the two versions quite a bit; interesting.  There are inconsistent colors in this tea version.  The other leaves vary some in color but not like this.

A slight mustiness from storage input (probably) stands out.  This is going to infuse and transition differently related this being a hard pressed cake, versus the other maocha.  After next round it will be completely wetted but the layered sheets of leaves only came apart so much initially.  As a result flavors that would typically transition through over the first two rounds could last into the fourth.

The dryness eases up already, but it's still a dominant aspect.  Even next round may be early to determine how this aged, what it might have been like initially, and what potential for further transition remains.  Then it's always odd trying teas as 6 and 7 year old versions, really right in between an early 3 or 4 years of transition being favorable and a fuller 15 to 20 year cycle being the next stage it makes sense to experience.  I just reviewed two Dayi 7542 versions in a similar age range for the same purpose, to become accustomed to that middle level aging range, to compare versions.  Both of these are as soft and approachable as Tie Guan Yin oolong compared to those, a completely different range of tea.  Better luck with flavor list breakdown next round, or the one after.

Thai sheng:  this is moving through an infusion transition cycle much faster so any direct comparison would be more about that, related to this being maocha, to being fully wetted.  It's pleasant.  A broad and intense mix of mineral tones stand out, with limited bitterness, moderate but nice sweetness, and other complex flavors.  

I think listing flavors next round will still make as much sense, once early round transitions are completely settled out.  It tastes of age already, on to old books or furniture related flavors, a bit ahead of schedule.  Maybe that's from storage conditions input, that these were stored in a wood paneled room environment?  Spending years in a place with lots of very old tea might have entered in as well.

Vietnamese #3 (brewed a little lightly; it seems time to ease up on intensity):  complexity keeps ramping up, and the clean character shines through (not that it was musty before, but it picks up depth and richness, and that early dryness is dropping out fast).  This is quite nice.  

Lighter tones pick up; that's interesting.  A hint of something along the line of lemongrass or citrus shines through.  It joins plenty of warmer tones, tied to earlier character.  Mineral is still a strong base but moderate now, more integrated.  I bet a medium strength infusion next round will show completely different character again, which is always an interesting experience, lots of transition that includes adding complexity and overall improvement.

Thai:  this becomes more complex too, and also softens some, the transitions just aren't as dramatic as for the other, since it started brewing faster.  A green wood tone stands out.  It probably sounds better to describe that as a mix of warm and also light mineral base coupled with spice range, identified and broken apart a bit more.  The aged character aspect faded some already, but it's still present.  

There is no challenging range, as with the 7542 versions I just reviewed, but some edgier feel and flavor range is somewhat comparable, just as such a more moderate level that it's not as much something to endure, or struggle to brew around, as is true of 6 or 7 year old 7542 versions.  I'm not sure this is at a fermentation transition stage that makes the most sense, that it wouldn't have been better 3 years ago, or wouldn't be even better yet in another 10.  

This tea has (/ had) aging potential; that was and is true of both of these teas.  They're just on a completely different cycle than those more intense Yunnan factory sheng, which need a full 20 years of somewhat humid storage (moderate or high) to draw into a more fully aged range, where after 20 you might want to leave it sit a few more years to see how it keeps changing.  Related compounds in these teas will also change over a 20 to 25 year cycle, but they're drinkable now, at 6 or 7 years along.  Not optimum now; not even close, probably.

Vietnamese, #4:  this is really hitting it's stride.  The balance of all the aspects works so much better than early rounds.  That's not unusual; often the first couple of rounds of a sheng can seem edgy or not developed yet, and harder pressed versions that didn't separate as well might take an extra round.  The same aspects are present but it's just much more pleasant and well-balanced.  Dryness is all but gone, related to being a dominant aspect early on, falling back to fill in a decent feel structure, that comes across as rich and almost sappy (not quite, but towards that).  Mineral and other rich flavor tones fill in, with a brighter and lighter range integrating and complementing that.  

It doesn't "break apart" easily.  A richer tone might be along the line of a warm spice input, or that and also including something like dried tamarind.  The lighter range is subtle, easy to miss, but that leans towards citrus, or maybe lemongrass works better.  It's funny how there's a lot going on but it comes across as all one thing, as an integrated set.

Thai:  this is the best it has been yet too; both of these teas don't disappoint.  A light, dry mustiness is all but completely faded now, integrated with the rest as a secondary input.  Warm, rich tones dominate.  What had seemed a little like green wood last round has transitioned to a more aromatic wood tone, close to spice range, along the line of cedar.  People don't seek out cedar flavor as a favorite in sheng experience but it works in this, balanced with the rest.  

Mind you both of these are not peaking at this point in transition, per my interpretation and preference.  This is about judging style and potential as much as drinking these for the best aging input representation of these teas.  I'm going to skip guessing how humid and warm the conditions were where these were stored; maybe I could make sense speculating about that, but it probably wouldn't add much, or be informative.  

[later edit:  Steve added that the Vietnamese version was naturally stored, in conditions relating to whatever occurred outside, for two years, and then was in controlled storage the rest of the time, from 24 to 27 degrees held at 70% humidity.  There's a good chance the Thai version was naturally stored, at that humidity during the wetter season and a good bit drier otherwise. 27 is air conditioned indoor temperature in Bangkok--around 80 F--but I think up north that can be more of a normal temperature range, and it tends to get much cooler at night].

They're both not the lighter, sweeter, less structured style of sheng that I keep referring to, versions that you should either drink brand new or within 3 or 4 years of aging.  Maybe they were fine back then but they still have potential to age transition positively.  They give up plenty of intensity to standard factory sheng versions, to Dayi numbered series teas or Xiaguan, but then what doesn't.  That's not necessarily a clearly good or bad thing; it depends on preference, and on a final aging result outcome.

Vietnamese, round 5:  it is about time to stop drinking these but I might make it through one more round after this one, the one I regret for going too far.  

This is quite pleasant.  It's interesting how dryness and aged flavor input really stand out immediately, in the first flash of impression, and then richness and other complexity enters in a fraction of a second after, with sweet and light flavors showing through seconds in.  Aftertaste expression really ramps up; maybe from a brewing intensity difference?  

I wouldn't be surprised if this just keeps on transitioning, if it's different again in 2 or 3 more rounds.  We're now into range where that's not necessarily from the cake material taking time to get wet.  Variations in the material may be expressing themselves across different times more; it's not completely uniform.  That can lead to a tea version not integrating well, or it can provide a unique and interesting balance, and make for an interesting transition cycle.  Here it works well, I think.  I think it's just a complex and intense tea version too, that the quality is good.

Thai:  this seems a bit more uniform, as if it's transitioning from the tea itself offering a different balance of experience across rounds, not from varied material showing through more or less.  Leaf color isn't completely uniform in this either though, so that's just a guess.  Balance and integration of flavors works better in this than in early rounds too.  An early dry edge (not nearly as dry as the other) also faded to change to a complex structure in this.  

That cedar wood tone seems to be slowly transitioning towards more of a dried fruit range.  A brighter component of that leans a little towards citrus, in this case dried orange peel, where the other might have included a hint of fresh orange, or maybe even lemon.  That might work as an example of why this tea would be much better in 6 to 8 more years, or maybe even 10, so that more of that transition could occur.  Intensity is moderate now but it's not fading, although both of these may go through a quieter phase before an aspect / character type transition is more complete.  Probably they seem less intense than 3 or 4 years ago now due to a similar effect, being in between two places.

color is way different, with the Viet Sun version (left) more broken

Vietnamese, #6:  it's interesting how this is one year older but also much darker in leaf appearance, in spite of being stored pressed (hard pressed, even, but this sample is from near the center, the "beeng-hole" part, so maybe the rest wasn't).  It's not so different that the last description no longer works, not transitioning so much.  It really hangs together well; a nice light citrus aspect balances the rest well.  Sweetness is ok, not something I've been saying much about, but these aren't very sweet compared to easier to drink younger sheng versions.  It's sweet enough to balance positively.  

Feel and aftertaste structure are more pleasant in this than the other; maybe it's slightly better for those extra dimensions adding more to it.  There's a richness to the flavor set that works well too.  I really expected this to be different, to not hold up to 7 years of aging transition this well, to fade more.  It could be subtle as a 15 year old version but it won't be mostly faded, and it's definitely not in that range where sheng seems to just be oxidizing instead of fermentation transitioning.  I just tried a tea like that within the last couple of days, maybe of comparable age.  It wasn't so unpleasant but at least to me that type range and experience form seems quite inferior.

Thai:  this isn't really fading but the transition might not be further improvement at this stage; that might have leveled off.  The character is pleasant but it gives up a good bit in terms of integration, balance, richness, and aftertaste intensity to the other version.  I really expected the exact opposite; this Thai version is not bad, it's holding up and transitioning fairly well.  It would be easy to miss that distinction when trying these teas a week or two apart; it would be easy for a preconception or varied judgment to enter in, a mood change or difference from how I'm feeling on any given day.  Trying them side by side it's right there to experience; you can't miss it.

It might sound like I'm concluding something that I don't intend, that I'm saying that the Vietnamese tea is much better, and it has a lot more aging potential than the Thai version.  I don't know that.  They're both in odd places in a transition cycle, half-way through, and they're similar enough in character that a main difference might be how they are shifting just now, not related to final potential.  I would guess that this Vietnamese version might be better in another decade, as it seems more positive right now, but that guess could easily be wrong.  Time will tell.  

Both have pretty good character now, and seem to exhibit decent potential.  It's quite possible that the Thai version is a little more muted related to being one year behind, and storage conditions difference could've changed a lot, not necessarily in a way I could identify, but at a guess this Thai version is more like 3 years behind in aging related to storage conditions difference.  

Conclusions:

Interesting!  Both are pleasant, both seem to show good aging potential.  I don't own any more of the Vietnamese version and very little of the Thai is left, so maybe I'll never know.

One important generality to emerge is that I keep expressing how a range of styles of South East Asian teas seem to have a character best enjoyed young, within 3 or 4 years, or maybe even new or rested for a year or two, and that doesn't cover everything produced.  I suspect the other Wawee Tea version I bought this year may be similar, that it's going to be better in 15 years than it is just now.  In a sense that's great; good aging potential makes for fantastic tea, later on.  In a different sense it's a bit sad, because I loved the 2022 version rested only for a half a year to a year, and it was fantastic to drink at that stage.

It would be nice if I could specify what inputs and outputs led to that character difference, but all this isn't headed there.  Varying initial oxidation during processing, differences in sha qing / kill-green step; who knows?  That's part of what makes sheng pu'er experience so interesting (or "pu'er-style" teas), that the broad range of complexity variations don't necessarily end when you try the brewed teas, with aging shifting what you experience over time.

To me the Vietnamese version is better, as these stand now, and it's really down to a guess if the Thai version will be similar in character and as good in 2 or 3 more years when it catches up in terms of fermentation transition (catches up to the where the Vietnamese version is now; it will always be behind).  

More input enters in related to how the later rounds went; the Vietnamese version stayed just as intense and transitioned positively over a number of additional rounds.  It had a nice brandy-like quality, related to how those aspects came together.  The Thai version stayed about the same.  Based on this it sounds like the Vietnamese version was just better, and more suitable for aging, but again the Thai tea could be a but muted related to where it stands in the transition cycle.  Only trying it in three more years would tell that story.  I suspect it will be much improved, but maybe not quite as intense or complex, but that's just a guess.

Bangkok tea shops and cafes; online Thai tea options

 

It's been awhile since I've written anything about this (6 1/2 years), and for whatever reasons discussing it has come up a half dozen times or so in the last month.  Lots of people visit lately.  Of course this list is centered on my own favorites, but I'll try to map out a range of other options.

Online options are included in the last section; people not able to shop locally in Bangkok might scan through the rest and focus more on that, or just skip ahead.

Edit:  I've added Maps links to these, along with the Facebook or website references they first included, so it should be easy to find out more about these options or to physically finding them.

My Favorites:

Jip Eu (Maps link): my favorite Chinatown shop, where the owners feel a bit like family.  On the positive side they carry lots of teas, lots of types even, and most are sold at great value.  On the negative side it's a hard place to shop, because there is no menu or listing of options, it's not easy to sort out what is in there, and quality and style varies a lot.  Their storage ages sheng pu'er fast--it's Bangkok, so hot and humid--but teas pick up a little extra mustiness, which tends to fade over 3 to 6 months.

They would taste some teas with guests but not over and over, not whatever is in the store; they're not set up as a tourist outlet, selling more to locals who already know what they like.  I never end up trying the same teas twice there.  Their specialization is Wuyi Yancha, rock oolongs from Fujian, but they also have Tie Guan Yin (from China, from Anxi), an odd mix of sheng versions, some aged, Dan Cong, a random selection of black teas, and a little of this and that beyond those.  There's not much Thai tea, but they would have some, maybe just no rolled oolong, the standard form, and no Thai sheng, what I like best.

I've met many kind people there; this is Sasha and Maddhurjya, and Kittichai on the right

Some teas there are good value but of very moderate quality.  A main offering is 50 to 100 baht boxes or paper wrapped squares of Chinese and Thai material blends ($2 to $3 per 70 to 100 grams; very inexpensive).  Sometimes a Shui Xian version (rock oolong again) can be medium quality instead, in those blends, so it can happen that a $3 selection would be equivalent to $10 or $20 worth in a US shop.  That's rare though; usually the quality is so-so for cheaper versions.  

Good higher end Wuyi Yancha tends to sell for 1000 baht / $30 for 100 grams, which is still a good value for being a completely different type of tea.  They don't carry a lot of sheng pu'er but some of the options they do have are good basics.  I keep buying Xiaguan tuochas there, and a fully fermentation-transitioned Tulin tuo is nice for trying basic aged tea range.

K. Mui Kee Tea (Maps link): probably not so different than Jip Eu, and just a block and a half away, another old Chinatown shop.  I've visited a few times but keep going to Jip Eu instead.  They sell different teas in dried tangerine peels (chen pi, the name of the peel sold alone, or sometimes used as a name for the stuffed dried peels).  Those are most often shu pu'er, but can be other types.  That might be good for novelty, for a gift for someone.  Wuyi Yancha or Dan Cong might be ok there but you'd have to try it to check on quality and value to know.

that shop owner is so nice, and I don't even really know him

Sen Xing Fa (Maps link; still on Chinatown shops):  a higher volume, more tourist oriented outlet, closer to the Yaowarat strip area, in a side street that sells a lot of street cafe food.  Selection of Thai and Taiwanese medium quality rolled oolongs is good, but value is just normal for those, with many selling for $15 to 20 per 100 to 200 grams or so.  Selection is broad but quality and value is all over the place; you need to try teas to see what's there.  

Where Jip Eu will try some teas with you, but would draw the line at tasting a lot of versions, or opening some of any kind, you can sit and drink lots of tea with them here.  You pay the price in value related to that though; some teas are good for the selling price, others not so much.  They carry more new / young sheng and shu than the other places already mentioned, and sell more teaware.  Per visiting with a new tea contact recently it's probably not the best place to be buying expensive clay pots, yixing and such.  Moderate quality teacups and the like would be the same as buying them anywhere else, but it's rare to see as broad a range of options as they have anywhere else in Bangkok.

VIP guests and a main owner

they hosted a nice meetup this year.  sheng cakes and teaware are on the other side of the shop

Ju Jen (Maps link) I've only been to this shop a few times but I'll  include it in favorites since my experiences have always been so positive.  It's way out there on Srinakarin road, out towards Bangna and the airport in the Paradise Park mall.  They seem to have a lot of variety, and I'm not sure if there is a specialization.  I bought some interesting mini cakes of pu'er last time I was there, 100 gram versions; that's a nice way to try something different, or it works for the gift theme.  

I'm not sure how many local Thai tea options they carry, but I did just review a pretty good Oriental Beauty / Dong Fang Mei Ren version from there, so at least some.  There seemed to be plenty of teaware around, but I have no idea where they stand on sorting versions or value for clay pots.

Zhennan cafe (Maps link): I've only visited here a couple of times, a cafe in Chinatown, but I suppose it fits here.  Tea selection is limited, and nothing so novel and amazing, related to it being so small, but it has a nice feel, which to me is what cafe experience is all about.  If the listed teas on a menu don't sound interesting they might carry others; it wouldn't hurt to ask.  

There may be lots of similar options all around Bangkok; I hear of other places like this but typically don't visit them.  To be honest I don't love spending any time in cafes; I'd rather buy loose tea and drink it at home.  But visiting that Chinatown can be rough; lots of ground to cover.  It's right beside a main alley market I'd highly recommend, which has a decent tea shop in it, and a few other places to buy very low grade tea and mass produced teaware.  That may sound off-putting to most tea enthusiasts but it can be nice to have an extra glass teapot or a number of extra small cups for gatherings, if you don't already.

an international tea expert and friend visiting Zhennan (John Lim)

the Zhennan cafe owner, and more of the interior

that Soi 6 market alley shop (note the alley has a different name from the North side)

what that market alley looks like

Classics:

Tea Dee (Maps link):  way out beside the Ju Jen shop in the Thanya Park mall there is a store that has long been a favorite among locals, which specializes in in-house sheng pu'er versions, and probably carries some factory versions too.  I've not been there in forever, since they moved from another nearby mall space, but given how they are viewed by others it seems to represent a standard option.  I've never been into the $1 / gram standard gushu sheng range, since that's not within my budget, but this might be the best place to buy that kind of thing in Bangkok.

This raises the question of how many other mall shops like here and Ju Jen are out there.  Very few others, I think.  There are tea shops, or booths selling limited range, but nothing I know of that specialty tea enthusiasts would seek out.  There had been a main one in the Paragon Mall, with a reputation for selling decent tea on the expensive side, but that's gone, and there's only a second branch somewhere else, as far as I know.  Royal Project shops exemplify what other mall-shop exceptions are like.

Royal Project stores (Maps link of one example): some of the oolong from Royal Project stores isn't bad; that's what introduced me to loose tea a dozen or more years ago here.  They're around, in malls and such, or there is one at the airport (Suvarnibhumi).  

For tea enthusiasts into above average quality Taiwanese rolled oolongs the quality probably just isn't good enough, but for buying some inexpensive gifts for people not yet into tea back home this may be perfect, or people would see "daily drinker" range in different ways.  They might carry an extra black or green tea but quality is kind of so-so, so sticking to the oolongs might be better.  Value is good for them, quality in relation to cost.  Tea selection is quite limited but dried fruit and whatever else is sold in those shops might be of interest.  Some sell boxes of plain tisanes presented as tea bag versions, which I buy once in awhile.

Double Dogs (Maps link): the main Chinatown (Yaowarat road) traditional Chinese cafe, also selling some cakes and loose teas.  It's really small; you might go in expecting that it may or may not work out for seating availability, or call ahead to reserve a space if it means a lot to you and you are on a tight schedule (which is no way to experience a Chinatown, but it can come up).  That Soi 7 market alley is right beside Double Dogs, and a wholesale area selling all sorts of random goods is all located on the South side of Yaowarat near here.  The main evening street food vending options are in the same area, as a few herb shops are, which is a good place to stock up on an extra kilogram of chrysanthemum, if one is into that.

this is actually half the cafe (credit a FB page photo)

Monsoon (Asok branch Maps link): local branches of a vendor based out of Chiang Mai.  Most of their selection is flavored teas, presented as wild-origin source material (which they are, but what that means probably isn't completely obvious).  For people open to that range or curious about that theme it's definitely worth checking out.  

There had been a small stall sort of outlet in one of the malls at Phrom Pong, I think in Em Quartier, but the main branch is at Asok, way back in the system of sois (side streets), behind the parts of that area that everyone knows about.  That shop isn't right beside the red-light "Soi Cowboy" area, but not far (but it's safe anywhere in Bangkok, even after dark; no need to worry).  They had sold kombucha at a small cafe type section; that might be nice.  

If value is a main concern then Chinatown shops are a better option; teas are priced at above average market rates, for what they are.  The teas are unique enough that there really is no market rate, so they wouldn't turn up in Chinatown, but you get the idea, you can find equivalent quality teas for less elsewhere, just not the same styles.  There is less to sort out than at Chinatown too; even though the range is mostly flavored blends it's all consistent, where in Chinatown you really don't want to drink any of the below average quality versions, related to it being bad and potential risk of contaminants exposure.

Monsoon holds interesting informative events, like this one on biodiversity research

Dayi / Taetea shops:  the two I've visited in town both closed but there are at least a couple of others.  Google search would let you know where; I don't know, and only mention them here for completeness.  That's the name of one of the three main Chinese factory producers of sheng and shu pu'er, for people not already clear on that.  I don't think seeking out these shops would make sense for buying oolong, black, or green teas, but I did buy two nice pressed white tea cakes in one, shou mei and gong mei.

Grocery stores:  of course this doesn't work, but there must be something to add about this.  I bought a Dayi Jia Ji sheng pu'er tuocha in a specialty grocery store once; exceptions come up.  Of course there are other places to buy those (Sen Xing Fa sells them, from the rest of this list, and Yunnan Sourcing or King Tea Mall are good sources online).  The Thai oolongs grocery stores sell are typically not above average, and average quality range here isn't so great.  

In China it is possible to buy so-so factory sheng pu'er in grocery stores; I just tried part of a cake that's running low I bought in Shenzhen on a visit back in 2019, which was decent--relatively speaking--in spite of selling for next to nothing, around $10 per cake.  Here it's better to avoid all of it, and sheng wouldn't turn up anyway (that one time was the only time I've seen it, except for sheng pu'er tea bags, which I'm not going to dignify with discussion here).  You might be curious about what an inexpensive box of loose Thai oolong might be like, Shui Xian made in more of a Wuyishan style, but it would almost always be pretty bad.  It's better to buy such a thing at shops like Jip Eu or K. Mui Kee Tea.

New options / different themes:

Koto Tea Space (Maps link):  I've never been to this place, but a friend runs it, so it must be nice (and the local buzz is positive too).  It's themed around Japanese tea experience, with emphasis on the aesthetic side, two parts of tea experience I generally try to avoid.  A setting looking nice is fine, some wood paneling, plants, or a water feature, but once there is too much of an elaborate decoration theme or people are wearing robes I'm out.

visiting would be worth it to meet Pop, the owner (photo credit their FB page, from 2021)

Peace Oriental (Maps link to one branch):  I think an earlier attempt at making a theme like that at Koto Tea Space didn't work for Peace Oriental, and they're on to being more of a standard cafe now, selling blended flavored iced teas and such, as well as more traditional versions.  It could still be interesting, if your path takes you near a branch.  I might've only visited one branch of this chain one time; again I'm just not that into cafes.  If you spend $10 on a decent pot of tea you might as well add 10 more and buy a decent tuocha's worth, or a passable 100 or 200 gram amount.  

Everything I'm saying here is a biased and one-sided take, of course.  I'm not into style as a main attraction in tea shops, and marketing spin pushing pricing for good basic version options to double what they sell for elsewhere.  Some people value style, and a "curation" function can seem to add value, beyond simple tea quality in relation to price.

their older theme was all white space; on to an updated natural materials look

the outlet I visited, which may be closed now

Ong Yong Choon (that is a Maps link) / other local shops:  there are countless places selling all sorts of variations of teas in Bangkok, hundreds if you count bubble tea and matcha outlets, or maybe even thousands.  This place I've named is an old-style tea shop near Wat Pho (a main temple), or more specifically beside the flower market beside Wat Pho.  

More conventional examples would be new forms of cafes, which keep opening and closing every year.  I've heard of 3 or 4 new versions this year but I'm only mentioning places I've not been to here when it makes sense to, when I've heard enough about them to reliably pass on what they are probably like.

Ong Yong Choon, the owners (who are so nice, as I keep saying about everyone)

Traditional shops / Cha Tra Meu:  I've still not mentioned anything about the orange flavored Thai tea, or the versions that look like teh tarik in Malaysia (pulled tea, with added reference to pouring it back and forth), often brewed in what looks like a small wind sock.  Both are around, they're just different kinds of things than specialty loose tea.  If you are in a really old-style restaurant or food court and see that old form of brewing you should try it out, but it's just inexpensive black tea with sweetened condensed milk.

The orange flavored version is something else.  Ordinarily I don't like artificially flavored teas, and it definitely is that, but that is tasty.  There's a shop selling it--Cha Tra Meu, the main one--in the building where I work, and I've never bought a take-out or loose tea version there.  It's not taste preference that stops me from having it; I avoid eating processed sugar and artificially flavored foods.  For exceptions I'll eat donuts and ice cream sometimes, but not drinks that are full of sugar.  For people who are more open to that buying a tin of the flavored loose black tea might be good.  Dairy Queen here did a Thai tea flavor promotion at one point and it's for best for my health that was temporary; it was too good.

In talking to someone recently about why it seems like there are gaps in what is sold in shops here a few factors seem to combine.  Tea awareness and demand is limited, and Chinatown shops already cover that for people who have been into tea for awhile.  Online options increase, sales through Facebook pages, and large Thai tea interest groups / marketplaces are crowded with people selling lots of things (this is only one example).  

Some of those group posts would just be reselling the best of what is sold by small producers through Facebook pages, teas you could buy directly for less, and a lot of the rest would be Taobao or Alibaba purchases, a lot of which wouldn't be good tea, or selling at a good value.  Over time people would probably sort out which individuals are most reliable, and turn-over would weed out some of the least reliable options.  There are limited Western-facing online sales options; let's consider those.

Online:

Unfortunately the best Thai sheng is only available online, as far as I know.  I guess that's a good thing for people reading this who would never make it to Bangkok?  Wawee Tea is a good starting point, a main traditional producer, and Ming Dee is perhaps the other main producer option.  Those kinds of producers would have Facebook pages, or there are lots of online shops in the two main online sales platforms here, Shoppee and Lazada.  I'll skip looking up links here; people can Google search or look up blog posts here that contain those names.  

I didn't really intend for this section to mostly be about Thai sheng; it just worked out that way.  At least some of these outlet sell teas way beyond that range, even though I'm discussing sheng most here, and not the oolongs or black teas as much.  It's what I buy most of and drink myself.

Tea Side is the main Western-facing website outlet.  Value isn't great through them, with decent sheng selling for between 50 cents and $1 per gram, when you can find equivalent versions for far less if you put more effort into it.  For people who don't see spending $100 to 200 as much expense for a tea order, and don't care what that works out to in relation to $ / gram, then they're a great option.  

Their products are consistently good.  Sheng options are fine, or black teas are good, Dian Hong style versions from Thailand.  Aged tea options are also good, but that $200 won't go very far buying from that range.  Their small-batch shu versions are good, and a gui fei bug-bitten rolled oolong was nice in the past.

Let's make that summary more specific related to buying a young version of Thai sheng; what if you wanted to buy a moderate cost, most recent Thai sheng version they sell, how would that go?  There are two identically priced at the lowest cost, $70 for 200 gram cakes, both from 2018, this one a more bitter version.  It's not 50 cents a gram, but that is $130+ for a standard cake, nearly double in-house boutique style productions by other vendors, or 1 1/2 times the higher end of that range.  At that pricing you have a lot of options.  A 2021 version sells for $85 for 200 grams; close enough to that 50 cents a gram level.  It's just not the kind of outlet option where you find this year's tea selling at all, never mind related to style and pricing variations.

Rishi--the US wholesale vendor--sells cakes from different countries, including Thailand; that would be another decent option.  There must be other Western vendors selling Thai sheng, I'm just not familiar with any.  

Let's dig a little deeper; how good would quality and value be?  This is a 2022 Wawee origin sheng "pu'er" version, selling for $45 for 200 grams.  I've bought tea similar to this over the past two years, for slightly less, but $80-some for a standard cake amount is definitely still fair, depending on aspect range and quality.  They carry some Laos teas too; for people who aren't concerned about the $80 or so per cake price range I expect those would be interesting in character, and safe bets for quality level.

I can't say that their teas are definitely as good as Tea Side's, because that's too much generalization, but it's my guess that it comes down to preference instead of quality, and some people might like them more.  It can be natural to assume that pricing must correspond to quality level but varying outlets set pricing differently, and carry different options, and equating cost with probable quality level doesn't work.

Moychay Thai forest tea initiative:  I've written about trying a cake from Moychay's partnership operation in Thailand, with tea versions selling through their Netherlands outlet.  It's tempting to try to describe their teas in relation to what Rishi or Tea Side is likely selling, or Wawee Tea and Ming Dee versions, but it can introduce a lot of error to generalize across a lot of versions, when I've only tried one (or two?; maybe a loose version as well).  The quality of what I tried was quite good, the material was obviously high in potential, and while the style wasn't a complete match for Yunnan versions I liked it.

That theme applies to a lot of South East Asian sheng I've tried; often it's not produced in exactly the same style as Yunnan versions, often varying in ways that I like just as much.  Oxidation level can creep up a bit, maybe due to not rushing the processing steps to offset that, or maybe it's that hotter and more humid local conditions let the tea transition faster during the limited processing time.  Or maybe heating step, the sha qing / kill-green / pan frying step, is slightly different.  Teas can end up trading out some bitterness, astringency, and aging potential for extra sweetness, initial complex flavors, and approachability.  For a version that you plan to drink within 2 to 3 years that can actually be positive; for long-term aging it's not favorable at all.  

It's possible that Tea Side filters what they sell to match Yunnan styles better, so their higher pricing level could be justified, for some.  Or maybe they just charge more; I'm not implying that aging potential / style issue maps out like that across most versions, related to Tea Side matching Yunnan style and Moychay being more like local Thai versions, although it matches my past experiences.

I re-tried a favorite Thai sheng from 2022 just this week--from a local source that's hard to access, not one described here--and it was much different and just as pleasant as last year, not seeming to show great potential for 15-20 year aging, but to me a fantastic tea for drinking right now.  It was not just on par with but slightly better than what I've sampled from all of these other producers (per my preference; that's not intended as an objective judgment).

In terms of positive experience and quality that Moychay tea I tried was good; I think it would also hold its own in the now-standard $80 per standard size cake range, a pricing that's a bit high for me to buy or drink a lot of, even though it's quite standard.  

This autumn version from them sells for 13 Euro ($14--what's up with the exchange rate?), for a 200 gram cake, so that's still very favorable pricing.  Autumn versions give up a little intensity and tend to cost less but that's still a great deal.  They list that one as "green tea," which I think is a translation issue, but it really could be pressed green tea, even though that existing--a pressed cake of green tea--would be stranger than getting a translation wrong.  

This other cake sold as sheng is 239 Euros for a standard size cake (on towards $250).  So it goes with buying pu'er; you can accept what someone says online as input but you never really know until you're tasting the tea, especially if the person offering input hasn't tried a specific version.  Style variations throw off the "good / not good" objective judgments; my absolute favorite Thai sheng not all other pu'er drinkers would even like.  

To complicate things further you can try 2 or 3 versions from a producer and think that those must map to all that they sell, good or bad, but that can vary a lot too.  Buying what they price the highest probably bumps the chances that you'll try their best versions, but even that might not be consistent.  Demand for a type shifts pricing just as much as quality, and many vendors just apply a standard mark-up, so if they get a good or bad deal on material / products your cost can vary by that factor more than quality level.  The smaller the vendor and less direct their source connection the more that applies, but in general pricing mark-up is a commercial function instead of relating to a quality judgement; it can vary a lot.